Alison Roman

0:03Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with my mum. Hi. When she decides to sit down. I can't actually you probably can't I actually can thank you yeah I had a colonic today so sue me I've just come back from a very lovely holiday in Cyprus where I you know indulged and I needed a reset and I thought a colonic would do that I don't know if it did didn't make me feel like Cindy Crawford when I came out but I'm off the booze tonight anyway how are you? I'm okay actually it's been the most beautiful sunny day feeling pretty perky a little bit tired now. Perky? Yeah a bit tired now.

0:50You're very excited about this guest as am I. More excited I think I've been about anyone. Tell everybody who we have on the podcast. Well if I say nothing fancy or dining in who would you think of Jess? Well I know who that is it's Alison Roman one of our favourite chefs who we have been cooking for everybody we cook for Catherine Ryan a whole meal yeah Rose Matafair who also loves Alison Roman my sister when I told her that we were doing Alison Roman tonight she said Jessie where were you in 2019 yeah where were we I don't know don't know either I think we were tackling an Ottolenghi vegetarian dish also lovely Marina Murphy who lives in LA yeah at her book launch last week because she loves her so much.

1:39Everyone loves Alison Roman. If you don't know who Alison Roman is, she is a chef. She has written for Bon Appetit. She has her own YouTube channel. She's written for New York Times. She has worked in some of the most amazing restaurants. She is the shit. But also she writes the most accessible cookbook she'll ever read, that everyone can do something. She might say nothing fancy, but it turns out really super duper fancy and gorgeous. It's really, really our kind of cooking. If you like the podcast and you like what we cook, well, a lot of it has been Alison Roman recently but also it's exactly how we like to cook.

2:20I was nearly going to cook from her cookbook today because I love all her, well, only because I like all her recipes so much. Well, tell us what you are going to cook instead. So I'm cooking from a cookbook called Right Fix by Yasmin Khan and it's recipes and stories from the eastern Mediterranean. I really love it. And so I'm cooking chicken in pomegranate molasses with sumac. Yum. It looks a bit barbecue-y. And actually, I'm sure it's been marinating for a whole night. A whole night? Yeah, I did it last night when I got in from babysitting. Oh, thank you for that, Mum. Yeah. And I did catch my finger in your back door.

3:02Oh, Mum. Yeah. drove me yeah good thing I made I cooked for you yesterday yeah you did it was delicious darling um so we're doing that and then what are you doing for sides well I'm doing a version of my shot carrots which aren't really shot carrots but it's from the Bevel cookbook where you put the you boil the carrots then shock them by putting them in cold water so you and I call it shot carrots I'm doing the warm aubergine salad that I've done before because I thought it would go and i've made a version of bejeweled rice i don't know what it's going to be like and you've complained that it doesn't need to have a green it needs a herb on it what's in your bejeweled it's cardamom cinnamon stick um bay leaf cumin and fennel seeds wow some onion yeah orange peel orange peel there was some little bits of cranberries and some apricots cut up and pomegranates pomegranate seeds later it looks very nice i just think it could have a bit of green on okay i'll put the green on and then what have you done for pudding well one of those things that come up on instagram i thought that looks lovely because i do like coffee desserts and it's nigella's cappuccino pavlova so it looks like coffee it looks like a cappuccino the exact color of a cappuccino and then you put the cream on top and some cocoa but i've put some grated dark chocolate on the top yeah because we fancy yeah um alice and roman coming up on table so excited

4:45alice and roman you are here i'm here with you you are here i'm so happy looking fabulous oh thank A bit sad you're not cooking tonight because you have been... Our big inspiration. Our big inspiration for this, like, the last two seasons. Also, it's been this wonderful... Well, this is the best thing about a great cookbook. It's been an awakening. It's been an awakening, but it's also been totally how I love to cook and how all my friends love to cook. So it's been this thing of, have you got nothing fancy? Well, no, we'll go and get it. Oh, my God, have you tried the slow-roasted tomatoes and chicken?

5:20Do it. It's so easy. I was so excited when they saw that on your podcast. They're like, oh my God. I was so excited. And then I was excited, but the people generally were like, the people really love to see that. Well, we're giving the people what they want. You're in Clapham. Were you in LA yesterday? It feels like it, but no, last week. No, because my friend's daughter went to your book launch last, was it, when was it? Last Monday. Last Monday, that's right. And she was so excited. but I must tell you you're one of the few people whenever I say Alison Roman and I think they won't know her you know she's American I think this is going to be a compliment in a minute it's our favourite favourite and then someone said to me I cooked from them last night from dining in and I said to Jessie have you got dining in she said no I haven't got dining in we've already ordered it have you got all the Harry Potters no I haven't I've already ordered it because he did something like chicken with paprika and lime Oh, yeah, that one's really good.

6:18No, Simon Sandberg, cooked for Graham. Paprika and lime. And he said it's the most delicious thing in the world. It's very good. It's like basically slow roasted, like the tomato one, right? But different. And in dining and I take the spine out, like I spatchcock it. And then it just gets rubbed with like grated garlic, olive oil, smoked paprika, and I think fennel seed. Yum. And then it's like 325 for two and a half, three hours, whatever. But I cut up whole lemons. It's excellent. It's a very, very good chicken. Chicken is like my favorite thing to write recipes for because it is the thing that I want to eat most often.

6:50Well, it's a good thing because you're having chicken tonight. Oh, perfect. It's not going to be slow roasted though. That's okay. And it doesn't have an anchovy in it, I'm afraid. That's fine. I was very curious what, if you were going to like play the hits to me. Or it's like wearing the band's shirt. It's like wearing your shirt to your own show or something. I did nearly cook one of your recipes. I mean, that's also good. I can't do that. so it's from a book which is really beautiful called cooking with figs and it's all it's a lady that's clearly taken a journey around greece syria lebanon all different places levant levant you say levant or levant levant i think levant i don't know it's it's really nice cookbook yeah sounds amazing it sounds exactly like what i want to eat with cooked in pomegranate and sumac and sumac yeah pomegranate and then you've done it i've been a bejeweled rice switch it stunning it's fine no i love it and then shocked well have you been to bevel in la yes right so it's a version of their carrots but i love it and i just says what are you making i say shocked carrots you boil them and then you put them in cold water to shock them it's with like yogurt and tahini and you should have had dill but we don't have dill so i'm sorry oh no dill how dare you that's okay that's okay i don't need it every day and also i'm in a bit of a break i I do need to know because we've also got pudding, but I know that you've got a reservation.

8:13So, well, I don't know if you're meeting friends. I told them I'm eating here with you. Are you sure? But you are going to quite a good restaurant. So, I feel like you may need to go to a restaurant later. Oh, yeah. Where? Which one? Kiln. Kiln. Which is a great restaurant. It's like grilled, smoky Thai. I'll give you a kind of filipper-sized portion so you can kind of, you know. I have such a, and this happens in New York a lot, where if I go out to eat with people who are not eating as much as me, I'm like, what's wrong? I'm like, you're not eating. I clock it. I notice. And I'm like, what's happening here?

8:44Why are we not eating the same amount of food? And why is it usually? Is it because you've eaten all of it? Because you're greedy like me? No, it's because somebody's like not eating at the time or something. Something's up. I'm eating, mom. I'm eating. I'm just not eating bloody raw carrots because I had a colonic. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This should really be on video. Done. The dynamic is unbelievable. Better than anyone thinks it is. Anyone at home listening, thinking how wonderful you two are in person is just so much better. Okay, thank you. Exceeded expectations. Give Lenny if somebody shut Lenny up on Netflix, yeah?

9:21Right, great, perfect. So, Alison, you grew up in New York? I grew up in LA. Okay. Yeah. That's quite interesting to move to New York. Yeah, not a ton of people do, and if they do, they always move back to LA. Do you think you're going to move back? Not ever. I'd sooner have moved to London. I'm just keep taking me east it's just a it's just an energy thing I think LA is great to visit I'm grateful to be from there I have a beautiful understanding and appreciation for produce and vegetables and seasonality and sunshine and etc hikes um but I don't need to live there and I can always visit and I do visit often I'm there often for work I see my family there's always a reason to be in LA I don't ever feel like I need to live where too much traffic I get really car sick Oh, okay.

10:03Oh. Where are you from in LA? The Valley. Like San Fernando Valley. So people, which like 10 years ago, people were like, what's the Valley? But now everyone's like, oh, I live in Sherman Oaks. Heim. Heim Valley. Yeah, exactly. And Heim really, I got a credit for cracking the Valley code. I feel like listening to them talk about it so affectionately, I feel embarrassed that I didn't do a better job sooner. You know? Being an advocate of the Valley. Yeah. Yeah. I do. Not that it's a contest. You said you left and you went to New York. And I'm like, I live in, people are like, oh, you're from New York.

10:32I'm like, I'm from the valley. But yeah, but I love California. Is everybody Jewish in the valley? No, just we are. Oh, you're Jewish? Yeah. I didn't know that. A lot of people are. But no, I weirdly went to a Catholic high school, but not because it was only because it was like the school that I could go to. That was in my district for a multitude of reasons. But yeah, my dad's Jewish. So did you grow up with Jewish food? I did. What was a really memorable dish from your childhood and who was cooking it? It was like less so about cooking. My dad really started cooking, I think, more later in life.

11:06Like he cooks often now. A lot of my recipes, which for support, but also I think I'm like, it's like at his level. And he just has more time because the kids are out of the house and he's like just cooking for him and my stepmom. But growing up, it was like we would go to Langer's Deli and eat the pastrami. We would go to Solly's, which is like a Jewish deli, and have matzoal soup. It was like the experience of eating out at Jewish delis. but like he would always bring home knish that were like frozen in a box and I would just make them constantly for myself you loved them loved them the best and I mean now the knish that I get in New York are nothing like the ones that were in the box but where do you get your knish from in New York there's a place called Moises but I don't I think they may have closed or they closed but maybe reopened they were next to us and daughters but I think they moved they either Someone has to fact check me.

11:55But I think they either moved or closed or nothing happened and I made this up. Have you ever made a khanesh? Not ever, but I aspire to. Me too. Do you think it's hard? Yeah, I do. I think it's annoying and I think it's hard. Yeah. But you're a pastry chef. I used to be. Can you make babka? I could. Of course she can. I can make babka. I can make a little bit of babka. That's a fact. I aspire to make a babka. But it's, yeah, it's annoying. But you know, my babka is like not even real because I'm using brioche. It's so. Like I'm not even really doing it. I'm sort of. You're using already established brioche.

12:26No, no, no, no. Like I make a brioche. Oh, okay, fine. Okay, got it. But I think traditionally babka does not have butter because often it is kosher. Okay, you cut your teeth with pastry. I did. So I grew up in LA. I started working in restaurants there. Where? It was a restaurant called Sona. It's closed now. Okay. Now it's like a gentleman's club. Actually, I keep saying it's a gentleman's club. It's not. It's like a member's club or something called the nice guy. in West Hollywood. Have you been there? I have not. Have you been invited to a party there? No, sadly not. I've seen people paparazzi'd outside.

13:01Exactly. Like I think Drake goes there or something. I just assume you're hanging out with him or something. People go to... You've never been papped outside there, darling? You're losing it. I never had it to lose, so yeah. But I worked as a pastry chef there but the only reason I took that job was because they were going to give it to me in a restaurant and otherwise there was no job available in the restaurant and it was like a nine person kitchen so it was really tiny and I was going to go to culinary school and I said well I need a job to pay my way through culinary school like I wasn't really getting any assistance and so was this a first career yes I was 19 so you were 19 you didn't want to be a nuclear physicist it was not on the cards for me okay no I find I'm very smart I'm not that smart I'm not smart in that way you know that was never going to be it for me.

13:47But yeah, so I decided to leave college and pursue like working in restaurants full time. And the man who I met at the door ended up being the pastry chef. He offered me a job and I took it and he's like, I think I would save your money. And if you, you know, a lot of people that work in a restaurant hate it. It's really hard. You don't make any money. It's tough. And you know, rather than go into debt, I can pay you, you know, like$7 an hour and you can work for me and see if you even like it and I did I loved it I loved it so much it was so hard but I like immediately was like this is exactly where I want to be but it it must have been quite exhausting and also it's a lot of men not as many women as it was a lot of men did you like that not especially but I didn't have any real feelings about it it was they weren't harsh towards you because you're not they weren't harsher to me than to each other okay and I wasn't the only woman I worked in the department with another woman and there were at least one or two it was like actually a pretty high ratio for restaurants but also again small group of people but my direct boss was a man and he was so such a gentle soul still is he's still with us dark um he just was I think he did he didn't like actively protect us in like a bullish way but he was just you know as our mentor as our person everyone really respected him because he was so so talented and so kind that it sort of, you know, bred that sort of treatment, I guess.

15:12But despite it being like a fine dining restaurant, James Beard, Michelin star, et cetera, et cetera, tasting menu, it was still like a very tender environment. And it was like really learning was the focus. And it was very much like able to learn on the job. Did you have any disasters? Every day, all the time. Is anything like, is itched in your mind? No, I've probably blogged it out. But it was also now at this point, like almost 20 years ago. But I find it quite interesting that you started in that world, but yet your approach with cooking is kind of the opposite of, it's not meticulous. Which is what pulls me to you because it's like, well, shove a few of them in and if you want, you know, and it's like, you know, more garlic, do this.

16:00But you know, you've got, it's very much, I love how you empower the person who's cooking it to be like, look you can do it this way these are my suggestions it's gonna work I would do this you can do that if you want and I love it and it's like you know even the titles nothing fancy it's kind of the opposite of what a pastry chef I presume you kind of learn yeah did you reject that world almost I did but I also was learning from people who sort of encouraged a different attitude about pastry who really did treat it like savory food in that like you know you should add salt to your desserts you should cook fruit like vegetables you should make things have texture and like like be as interesting as a savory food and it was a lot of like well what would happen if you made this chocolate cake without the cocoa powder it's like I don't know let's find out what would happen if you made this cake without raisins and you added this instead it's like well let's find out so it was a lot of experimenting and a lot of like openness to ask questions and and fail and be like, oh, that didn't work out.

16:58Okay. Well now we know. So I think in my attitude of teaching is that because I've been doing it for so long, I have done things the wrong way. And in doing that, I can tell you what works and what doesn't. So I know that if you do the slow roasted chicken with the tomatoes, if you do it with fennel instead, it's going to be beautiful. If you do with eggplant, it's going to be weird, you know, because I've tried all these different ways and different things and I can tell you why I can like, you know, break it down. But most people just want like a few general suggestions on how to mix something up and some people want to always follow the recipe exactly as written and either work for me so would you say you had a classical training that doesn't sound classical i would say like you have to start from basics modern classic okay yeah in that like i did learn a lot of foundational things for pastry it's like you learn how to make a dough you learn how to cream butter and sugar you learn shoe but things like Right.

17:51But the desserts we were making were not that classical. So, okay. I had that training a little later in my career. I worked for a man named William who had more of a formal style, like a little bit more French, a little bit more precise, a little bit. What was the name of that restaurant? It was called Quince in San Francisco. So he came in after I had been there and I was working at Quince. I was like basically doing the pastry department there by myself with a few other people. We didn't really have a boss. It was sort of like we were just in charge of putting things on the menu. And it was very like California casuals, like a lot of galettes and almond cake with peaches and things like that.

18:28And then William was hired to sort of level up because they were going to expand the restaurant and have like a bakery attached. And so somebody who had a bit more knowledge and he was like, it was like layered cakes and like casting with mousse and praline and spraying cakes with like liquid chocolate. It was wild. It was a totally different experience. But I learned a lot and none of that would I ever take with me into my home. But it's sort of like what you do at home is not always what you want to do professionally. And I sort of think like, okay, well, I used to be a professional pastry chef and now I'm a professional home cook.

19:01I wouldn't call you a home cook. Oh, I would. Yeah, but you know what you're doing. Because you're a chef you started out. You could have a restaurant if you wanted one. Yeah. Do you want one? I don't want one. I never want one. Too much stress. They're so tough. They're so, especially in the States right now. I have a lot of dear friends who have wonderful successful restaurants in several cities around the country and it's really hard it's really tough to like pay people properly to charge accordingly not have people bitching about how expensive food is to have a life to have the quality be what you want it to be to train the right people it's like it's just a nightmare so what took you to New York which basically not wanting to work at restaurants okay yeah and the absence of love I had exited a relationship pretty much every time I moved cities was because I was going through a breakup.

19:48But I was sort of like, I grew up in California. I worked in LA. I worked in San Francisco. I was 24. I was like, I'm going to move to New York for three months. And then I'm moving back to San Francisco to open a bakery with William, my old boss. I fell in love with New York and we're still together. And it was... You and you, you. Yeah, New York and I. And I started, I got a job at Momofuku Milk Bar when they just first opened. Yeah, because that was when they were doing the crack pies. Yeah. And the cereal milk. I mean they still are I think they still are doing all the same but like that at the time it was the thing everyone was talking about what year was that?

20:232000 and that was I was 24 I'm 37 so math is not my strong suit but 2008 I'm like 2003 2010 thank you producer Alice yeah I moved I guess I moved to New York in 2010 yeah that checks out I've got another bottle here yeah because I remember being in New York around that time it was like the place to get things we were all just really excited it just opened up it was also when what was it called please don't tell place oh yes exactly it was around that whole thing and i think like there was just a huge boom in like novelty everything yeah cocktail bars mixology desserts like concept restaurants like kind of had like a energy to it there was no instagram like there was internet was like barely a thing on our phones like i had a blackberry actually at the time I had a flip phone I had like a T-Mobile flip phone um for those of you listening and I'm just kidding um it was just such a different I mean it was such a different yeah if you think about those places yeah and how it was like if you knew about these places you knew about it was the best kept secret all yeah and I'm so impressed with with Christina Tosi and what she's done and and how she's still doing it it's like she had a vision she executed it and like is doing the thing that she always wanted which was like to expand and have like a big like company and to be everywhere so then milk bar happens and then you start doing some food writing no i i left about a year and a half into it basically i i started there thinking i was just gonna be like a baker during the day and very quickly she was like do you want a salaried position as like a sous chef basically and here's health insurance and i was like i do need money Like I didn't have any money.

22:10Zero dollars. And health insurance was nice. And so I said yes, I took the job. But like I was sort of like this is not why I moved to New York. I did not move to New York to continue working at a restaurant or a bar or a bakery or anything. Like I moved to New York to kind of expand what I could do in like quote unquote the food world. But I never thought, oh, I'll work at a magazine or I'll write a book. Like that was never my goal. I just knew that I wanted to continue working in food. but I knew that I didn't want to like just be making it for strangers with like with somebody else's vision you know I guess you starting with that experience of should we try this oh it's not going to work fine forgive me if this is not right but if when I imagine what a pastry chef or somebody that's in they're instructed on how to do a certain recipe and they execute it day after day brilliantly and they're on their station or whatever so the fact that you were immediately your first job into development it makes total sense that you yeah do what you do now right absolutely yeah I don't think that I could have been good at it when I started so I got a job as like a basically a recipe tester bon appetit and all that meant was that somebody would hand me a piece of paper with a recipe on it and I'd make it that was it I wasn't like putting my touches on it I wasn't changing it I was I was just testing it does it work does it work and then through that process learned what made it work what didn't make it work and sometimes they were translated from like a chef's kitchen in a restaurant to a home cook's kitchen and I'm like well I know that they're probably making this in a nine pan or a hotel pan or a whatever and I know that when they say that that's what they're talking about so I have to account for this so a pot won't work it's too deep I need to make it in a baking dish like I felt like I used every ounce of experience every moment from a restaurant and bakery professionally to like decode and make something work for the home cook because I was like I know what you're saying but the home cooks don't have that so let's make it work for everybody I think there's like this misconception that I started working at the magazine was like all of a sudden like writing recipes and I was the main star and like also like nobody knew my name for two years I wasn't allowed to develop any of my own recipes.

24:22I was just there to like learn how magazines work. Back to your growing up, were your parents good cooks? Yeah, they were. My again, my dad really more started cooking now. My stepmom is a great cook. Always has been my mom has always been a great cook. My mom really had like a few of her hits. A lot of like rice pilaf and grilled salmon and asparagus, like very Californian steamed artichokes a butterfly trout with like garlicky breadcrumbs that's in dining in it's fantastic and that's why I didn't have dining in so I need to I've ordered it exactly thank god it's so good so easy and like iconically my mother to do that but would she serve that with she would serve that probably with rice pilaf and asparagus or a steamed artichoke and you know it was like I think because you know in California it's like oh I grew up like preparing artichokes like can you get artichokes all year because I went with Hannah and Jonah to Houston's oh I love you I know oh my god do I love that it's his favorite place on earth and we went and they did the most delicious artichokes I've ever tasted oh yeah the grilled ones the grilled yeah oh my god they do it could you do it you could do it they must they're fussy they must parboil them they do and then they griddle them yeah and they're in half so they halved them then griddle they're either like poached or steamed or something at houston's i'm imagining there if i'm them i'm doing them in like very large batches in the oven delicious things i've ever tasted boiling them until they're done and then i'm grilling you don't even mind the fuss of them because they're so delicious do they come with a dip no they cut they're slightly is it there's like grilled lemon or something yeah i gotta get back to everything houston's in like four years um but there's also a recipe for that in dining in oh you see you've missed out yeah accidentally inspired by Houston's but I think also just California I feel like artichokes are the state's mascot so what does inspire you I mean when you come up with something like well the one that we Jesse and I know best which is the the slow roast chicken with the oregano and the tomatoes and it works so amazingly well.

26:35So where did you, where did you get that? Where did it come from? I don't know. Most of the food that I, the recipes that I developed come from like, what do I want to eat right now? Like what sounds really good to me? It can't, I couldn't write a book in a day. I couldn't even write a table of contents in a day because what I feel like eating is so different all the time. And sometimes it's inspired by a meal out that I have. Sometimes it's inspired by I'll go to a restaurant and read something on the menu and then I order it and that's so different than what I thought it would be it'll just say like you know chicken peas and bottle and herbs and I'm like oh that sounds amazing and in my head I'm like imagining what I would do and how that comes together and what comes and I'm like oh this isn't right and then I feel really inspired to go make a version of like just using those three words I'm like that feels like now I have a mission I take pictures of menus and then try and replicate what they've made.

27:26That's amazing. No, I wouldn't say that. It's not amazing, but I find that it's easier for me. But that's what Alison's saying with the words, three words. I think that like, yeah, and I think sometimes I'll come up with like a phrase or I'll just think of something or two ingredients together. I'm like, oh, that sounds really nice. I've never had that, but it sounds good.

27:53Alison, when you were looking for love and you were travelling all round, you see, this is why I haven't travelled much, Jess. Why? You didn't have to look for love. I have travelled quite a lot. Thank you. But when you were looking for love... I don't think she was looking for love. She was looking for work. She was looking for work, but she was hoping that she'd find love. I was looking for myself. You hope you might find love on the way. Mum's turned it into... Which I do love. Mum's here, stop spoiling it. What would you cook to impress? It would have to be like the fourth or fifth date. Oh, sure.

28:27I don't even eat dinner on the first date. No kissing on the first date. No, I'd rather kiss than have dinner. Oh my God! Yeah, it's true. I'm not cooking for anyone and I'm not eating with you on the first date. Not even at a restaurant. What did you do on the first date? Go get drinks. You're so New York person. I mean, if there's like a dish of olives that appears, like if things go well, the move is on a first date, what you do is you sit at the bar at a sexy little place. You meet for drinks, quote unquote. If it's going well, you say, oh, should we get a few snacks and see if they can hang?

28:58And then maybe there's like a snack moment. But if it's not going well, then you say thank you so much and you leave. Are you a professional dater? Well, not anymore. I'm off the table now. Okay. I need a few tips. I think, yeah. I can, if you move to New York, I can help you. Okay. What have you been returning back to recently, kind of whether it's a comfort food or something that you're making that you're like I can do this really quickly and it's really satisfying before this book came out I was in such like a I was doing so much preparation for the book coming out and like with press and preparing for the tour and planning the tour and all that stuff and then I went on tour and now I'm here and so I haven't been I haven't cooked anything really that wasn't for like home movies which we just shot a few of in like I want to say a month and a half two months which is like killing me like I haven't cooked in so long but i did just do like a crispy sort of chickpea dish with a lot of herbs as like a thing that i used to eat almost every day i would open up a tin of chickpeas i wasn't cooking them from dry chickpeas crispy well they're not they're more frizzled i call them frizzled i couldn't get you did you i didn't they didn't frizzle for me and i wonder whether it's because they were too wet and i should have dried them were you impatient i don't think they need it's they're always going to be kind of wet i think that's okay i think for me either the heat's not high enough or there's not enough oil.

30:16Okay. Yeah. Um, I also find that the quality of chickpea, like some chickpeas that don't have salt and some chickpeas that do have salt, like kind of behave differently when you're cooking them that way. Over the years, I've really noticed like subtle differences in ingredients that I would have never thought of before. I'm like, Oh, why are these not cooking the same? I'm like, Oh, cause this has no salt added or these tomatoes, these whole tomatoes are in juice, not pulp. And that's why the sauce is thicker or whatever. Like so many small things that you're like oh I'm just buying a can of something it's like everything is really different there's no not a ton of consistency even less so from where I live to where we are now who is your favorite chef not your favorite restaurant but who would you follow and think I know I'm going to be all right when I use that cookbook or if I go to that restaurant because I really love that the way they cook do you even follow recipes you know I don't I don't really read cookbooks anymore, but there's a chef, her name is Gabrielle Hamilton, and she had a restaurant called Prune in New York.

31:15And it shut in the pandemic, but I think it's coming back in like a limited capacity. But she wrote that book, Blood, Bones, and Butter, which if you haven't read, you must read. Blood, Bones, and Butter? Yeah, it's a memoir. It's, I think, amazing. But when I first moved to New York and I ate at her restaurant for the first time, I was like, oh my God, like this is the kind of cook I want to be. This is the kind of chef I want to be. I want to eat food that makes people feel like this. If I ever had a restaurant, I'd want it to feel like this. She's, I think, just really wonderful. She has, like, such a perspective and a personality, and it comes through in every single thing she does.

31:50And that is so rare, especially these days. I think most people feel more comfortable when they blend into something that's already successful rather than being their own person. And she is absolutely through and through her own person. And you can taste it in her food. You can feel it in her restaurant. I just think it's really special. There is a cookbook that exists. It's called Prune. It's written for her and basically for her. You know, it's written for people that are fans of her, for fans of her restaurant. It's not written for her home cook who's never, who's like looking to recreate the recipes.

32:22Okay. Because they're, I think it's like basically scans of her notes. But it's really like a beautiful exploration into her creative process. And I just have endless respect for her. You're here in London for what, like 48 hours? No, for a week. Oh, wow. Yeah, I leave Friday. Let me just hear some more of your reservations. So I did. I went to Manteca. Have you heard of it? Oh, it was so good. It was delicious. Yes. Newish Italian spot. Where's that? In Shoreditch. In Shoreditch. How have you been? Because mom. She's all about it. She's all about it. I know. I went to Rochelle Canteen for lunch.

32:53Oh, my favorite. Which I love. I love. Rochelle Canteen to me is like, prune is like the closest, even though the food is very different. Okay. The feeling I have when I'm in both places. Have you been to Topaz Cafe yet? Yes. Loved. Not on this trip. but I have been before. Okay, well they've just reopened. Oh really? Maybe you should go there. Yeah, on like a sunny day which this week, fingers crossed. You can walk down the canal. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I loved it there. Yeah. That's a really good idea. Oh, I did Saturday Kitchen. So I was so... How was that? I fell off my chair. Oh my...

33:23On live television. Wow. I bet people loved it. People did love it. The Brits love that kind of shit. But like, yeah. I mean, how badly did you fall off? Like badly enough to where everyone was like, oh my God, is she okay? Oh no! But I was. I was fine. I was more just so embarrassed. Oh, mate. Why did you fall off your chair? It's such a dumb long story. It's not even a long story. It's just a stupid story. I'm sorry. The chair that I was, whatever. There was a chair and a stool. And the two chairs were so far apart from each other. And when you're at Saturday Kitchen, you're supposed to be sitting next to the person.

33:55And I was like, this can't be right. I was like, this chair must be for Matt, the host, because it's way too far away. Yeah. And so I was like, well, I guess I'm going to sit in the stool. was it the stool was for the wine and it had three legs and was not a chair was not able to support a person oh no i'm sorry i just absolutely ate it i recovered because like oh but did everyone kind of fuss around you and then it was just more embarrassing you needed everyone to laugh a bit yeah and well they actually nobody fussed everyone's gonna watch it happen nobody offered to pick me up or anything which is fine i didn't need help getting picked up that would have been worse but like everyone did it was sort of like oh are you okay I'm like no I'm fine let's move on and then like they wouldn't let me move on oh babe and it was like let's talk about it for the rest of the show thank god it happened at the end of the show okay I think they were just like oh this is funny and I'm like yes it's so funny it's so funny I'd love to move on though did you cook I did yeah I made some desserts from the book okay so I did like a raspberry rotata cake nice easy to make beautiful so easy like no mixing no mixing well you mix but you don't need a mixer yeah but like you don't need to like this looks great mum I don't know beautiful this looks fab this is stunning yeah very gorgeous mum I love Panic because your mum makes for jeweled rice oh whatever I'd never have made that mistake wait what just have another glug of your wine and then everything it won't matter

35:23this chicken's delicious mum the chicken's great it's really so good very very delicious it's tart it's salty it's juicy good um last supper alice and roman you've got a starter or an appetizer as you yanks like to call it a main and a dessert and a drink of choice she could choose from each of her cookbooks darling oh i would never okay are you sure i'm positive yeah because of it's like although it would be very me to pick something that i'm like in control of to be like oh my last supper i'm cooking okay you can put one of your recipes in No, no, I don't need to do that. It's honestly going to be like a beautiful shrimp cocktail.

35:59From anywhere particular? Are you making it? Prawn cocktail? Yeah, sure. Anywhere that the prawns are good. Anywhere that like, and the cocktail sauce is really lemony and has a lot of horseradish and Worcestershire. Do you have a prawn cocktail? I do. Yeah. It's a nothing fancy. Okay, well maybe I'll make it. I think you should. Okay. I think it's very good. Aren't we going for the nothing fancy prawn cocktail? Yes. Okay, fine. Okay, I'm happy. and then like a beautiful steak like a two inch thick ribeye basted in butter with crushed garlic and lots of herbs at the end and like how rare do you like your meat?

36:32I like pretty rare me too not like full bloody but I mean if I'm ordering it a restaurant I say medium rare the greatest shock of my life was going to Argentina what happened there? they always go up it's medium it's never got anything it was really sad for me It's so upsetting. I can't. The best meat. Yeah. And it's well done. That's really tough. And they think you're slightly odd when you say, I want it. I know. And you know, sometimes like in Mexico when you're there and they do like the sort of like carne asada and the meat is like so cooked that it's crispy and it's like, then the fat. Oh, I love that.

37:07See, that's a meat. Yeah. Because then it's like not about rare. It's about texture and like meatiness and saltiness and crispy bits. And I support that. Like if you're going to cook it, cook the hell out of it. but if you're gonna cook it for like steak experience i want it medium rare to rare and i want it like a beautiful crust on the outside and like lots of flaky salt on top are you having any condiments with your steak i mean if i get a choice if i if that can happen yeah absolutely i'm doing like uh cream spinach i'm doing like beautiful little like i think you call them jersey potatoes yeah they're the best yeah like boiled and then like tossed in butter like maybe crushed slightly with like lots of yeah you can get those nice waxy potatoes and yeah they tend to be a little large though yeah but it doesn't matter because gold yukon gold so great we're also we don't have mayor lemons oh we don't really have them in in new york they're interesting but they're too sweet for like do you say a lemon in any of your recipes i'm sure you have i think that there's a few yeah where i'm like this is great with meyer lemons but if not like regular lemons are fine.

38:09So I think you've never heard of it. It's a bit sweeter. The juice isn't sweeter, they're just more floral. And the skin is very, very thin. So anytime you're doing a whole lemon cooking, which I do often, it's nice because the white pith is actually pretty thin. Okay, so we've got the main and the starter. And then a dessert is going to be like a key lime pie. Or a salted lemon cream pie. Which is basically the same thing, but with lemon. Salted lemon cream pie. That's in the new book. You can make that too. No mixer. sorry oh yeah you're talking my language you will like the dessert book i think because it is made for people who prefer to cook and like have intuition and like to kind of be like oh i didn't have this but i used that and i mean this has all been so so delicious delicious and like i think that it's like a cook sensibility can take really well to that the dessert book because you're like oh i didn't you know i'm using this instead of that i'm having this fruit instead of that and most of the stuff it's like all you need is a mixing bowl and your hands and like a sheet pan or you know a cake pan or a pie plate like you don't need a ton of equipment or anything fancy and to me it's like they're the ultimate pantry recipes you know like butter sugar flour i did your crunchy chocolate cake from nothing fancy oh yeah that one's so good that is so good it's also flourless good for passover yes k4p yeah shalom um what's your drink of choice my drink of choice is a martini if i'm having one beverage if i'm which how do you take it i take it vodka i used to take a gin if i'm doing dirty it's gin if i'm doing a twist it's vodka but more often than not i'm doing it i'm doing vodka martini twist and olive you do a twist and an olive yeah oh i'm not sure about that it's fantastic it's not dirty it's just like sheer alcohol so okay interesting quite actual nothing fancy no i mean nothing would be i mean considered and when people ask me this question sometimes i change the answer to like it's like a perfect roast chicken with like a big leafy salad oh there's a big leafy salad on the table too with the steak and what's your dressing fresh lemon juice olive oil crunchy salt and pepper no mustard no honey no vinaigrette i don't believe in vinaigrettes what herbs are your favorite hang on that's a really bold statement to just like whisper i know what's that what she said i don't believe in vinaigrettes why because Because I think that it's an extra step that you don't need to do.

40:31Okay. And unless it's a creamy dressing that needs emulsification, there's no reason I'm going to take another bowl, mix things together to then pour over something else. I'm going to take the acid. I'm going to take the lemon juice or the vinegar or the whatever. I'm going to pour it over my greens. I'm going to taste it, season it with salt and pepper. Okay. It's acidic enough. And then I'm going to drizzle it with some olive oil to finish. And then it's like everything is well seasoned. How many times have you made a vinaigrette? And you're like, oh, it's perfect. I love it. and then you dress your salad and you're like, why does it taste like oil?

40:59Because the oil floats with the thing and it's like imbalanced and you add more dressing and then the lettuces are soggy. It's the worst. and that's, I've never really thought about whether to put the lemon on before the olive oil. So you'll always put the lemon on before. Well, it's like, imagine like if you're getting ready for bed at night, you wash your face. Imagine like, you do your toner and then you do your moisturizer. You don't do your moisturizer then your toner. Do you think lettuce is makes a lot of sense? You think lettuce is that sensitive? Well, it's like, Or you put lotion on your hands and you put it underwater.

41:28The water doesn't penetrate your skin. So if you put oil on lettuces, vinegar is never going to get to that oil. This is another great tip. Alison, how many vinegars do you have in your cupboard? How many different sorts? I have four. I have white distilled. Yeah. One of my favorites. Red wine, which I don't use often. Yeah. White wine. I use that pretty frequently. And apple cider. What about? I love sherry, actually. I have a sherry. Sherry. Muscatel is the one that, like... Well, I put Sherry in that one because I didn't have anything else. I liked it. Did you like it? I really liked it. I think balsamic is only for when you're on holiday, when you're, like, in Venice at a bad restaurant.

42:07I said it. You know what, though? If you're, like, in Modena and, like, going to the birthplace of balsamic and they're, like, doing things well and right, like, of course. But most balsamic vinegar, especially in the States, is, like, caramel coloring with, like, other vinegar added. It's, like, not real balsamic. I hardly use it. And I've noticed it's got kind of... It's getting like musty and weird. Yeah, musty and weird because I don't use it very much. But your brother does. Use it or lose it. We should go to your pantry together. I know. Oh my God, maybe that's a new TV show. Use it or lose it.

42:38Yeah, and I just come and clean your kitchen for you. Annihilate your fucking fridge. I thought I'd found some very, very long grain rice because I'm very keen on Turkish rice. What's Turkish rice? I don't know that one. It's much, it seems longer than normal rice. Okay. And they cook it. This rice is perfectly cooked, by the way. I'm sorry, you haven't finished. Thank you. No, I won't be just a carrot. Jessie, did you? This rice was fantastic. You threw it to me, was it? I made it up. Shut up, Mom! I put two together. That's going in the new cookbook. That's two together, because it was a basic one.

43:11You know what I liked about it? I liked how big the orange rind was. Yeah, without the orange rind, it would have been nothing, to be honest. Is this also delicious? We have got a dessert. Oh, my gosh. I cannot wait. Are you sure you can do it? Is that a bit like the moisturiser and the toner? If you're about to go to Kiln for starters, you'll do it. No, because they're going to get a head start. I told them I would just come and try. Okay, fine. Oh, my word. So this is not a difficult recipe. Okay, well, it's stunning. It's Nigella's Cappuccino Pavlova. Oh, my God. Someone made me a Nigella recipe.

43:41Oh, this is nice. Oh, yeah, it's really nice. So easy. Mmm. Mmm. Delicious. I invested in the espresso powder. Did you? I also love your plate. I love that plate. It's beautiful. Really sunny. Well, that's good, Mum, because it's a bit like... Mmm, nice. I love the colour. Chewy, delicious, like it. I just wonder whether it feels like it should have another layer to it. This is supposed to be like cappuccino, so just the topping. It's perfect. I love it, Mum. But I don't think you could put another layer in, darling. No. I would do a taller layer of cream, maybe. she said only 300 mils so i stuck make it five make it five do you like all that new wine stuff the new old wine natural wine but i like all wine i like new wine i like old wine i don't like wine that is marketing itself as like so new and natural that like feels like it's being marketed like a 22 year old the orange stuff yeah and orange wine can be good i think i think it's gonna like go too far people can be like give me the classics again and then they're gonna come back around being like, you know, some orange wine is actually made classically.

44:48It's some of the oldest wine made, but because it's like new to us, we're like, oh, it's new wine, but it's like some winemakers are like, no, this is how they made it like in the BC days, you know, whatever. And so it's perception and branding and marketing. And like, there definitely was like a rush to the natural wine world. And sometimes I'm like drinking a natural wine. I'm like, is it natural or is it bad you know and i don't know enough about wine to always know the difference i know what i like so exactly i know what i like and i'm i'm finding myself craving like very like crisp white classic whites but like sometimes like oh this is a wine made without sulfites without you know intervention it's organic grapes but it's like a classic vermentino or whatever like you know it doesn't need to be branded like a cool natural wine for it to be natural because all wine is ostensibly natural.

45:37Do you have an aroma or a taste that's very nostalgic to you? I would say garlic butter, probably, because it was the thing that my mom used to serve the artichokes with and pour over the trout. So for the trout, you take a trout, you butterfly, you could do it with a bronzino, Steve Bass, whatever, and you take breadcrumbs, panko or anything, and you make a garlic butter, like melted butter, garlic, pour it over the breadcrumbs with like parsley. I do it a little bit differently than she did, but I think this is how she did it. and then salt and pepper, and you sprinkle that over the raw fish, like skin side down, and then you broil it.

46:09So the crumbs get crispy, the fish cooks through, whatever. But that smell of garlic butter, and then she would make extra garlic butter to serve with the steamed artichoke. So I feel like that... That just brings you back to the family home. Yeah, like full fat. I think she used galted butter, like crushed garlic cloves. Garlic butter is a great smell, isn't it? Yeah, it's kind of basic, but there was something about the way... I think because she used a garlic press, too. It was just like ultra... Does she still live in LA? I said yes, but she moved to Connecticut like last year. Why? For her husband.

46:39Or her husband's from there, so he wanted to be closer to his family. It's new to me to have my mother so close, yes. Do you have brothers and sisters? I do. We have different moms. So my dad and my stepmom had two kids after my dad and mom divorced. So I have a brother and sister. My sister lives in California, and my brother lives in Seattle. My brother is a great cook, actually. He is like really good at following recipes and kind of doing his own thing with them. But he cooks probably more often than anyone in my family. What would you ask him to cook for you? There's a recipe in Dining Inn that he really loves.

47:11That's like chorizo pasta with clams. And he makes it all the time, apparently. And I think he's like made some tweaks and changes. And I'm like, I'd love to say like, what's your version? Like show me your version of chorizo and clam pasta. It's been such a pleasure to meet you. Oh my gosh. You're so best on talking about food as well. You need your own TV show. Thank you so much. You are doing enough anyway. But honestly, it's such a pleasure to meet a chef that I love. We love all your food. You totally, I think so many people just love it and enjoy it. And you're brilliant. And I really wish you all the best with Sweet Enough.

47:47Thank you so much. And also, you've got this thing that everyone feels they know you. So whenever we mention you, everyone goes, oh, we love Alison. People feel that way about you too as well, I will say. Just so you know. I mean, I felt that. I was like, oh, I'm going to my friend's house.

48:14Well, that was so lovely. She's rock and roll. She's no nonsense. She's kind of a perfect New York chef, isn't she? She's just gorgeous. Brilliant. Funny. She knows so much about food as well. Please write in to us if you... Is balsamic dead? And are you with Alison on the death of vinaigrettes? And do you dress your lettuce leaves with lemon first and then the oil? Do you tone and then moisturise? I've never thought about that. I haven't thought about dressing my salad in the same as I do a facial, to be perfectly frank. Well, it now makes a lot of sense to me, to be honest. The thing is, though, you know how she said you don't want to make a dressing separately and then put it in the salad.

49:03In France, they make the vinaigrette in the salad bowl and then they put the salad in. Oh. Hold on, Alice, get on the mic for this. Producer Alice has just stepped up after being very silent and listening to all of us for the cuts. Please do tell us what the French do. So I just have to take issue with the vinaigrette thing. I can't. You were very quiet when she was chatting. and the whole thing about saying oh you don't want to make a dressing on the side and then pour it over in france they make the vinaigrette in the bowl yeah and then they put the salad in and then they toss the salad so you being married to a french man speaking perfect french how would you make your vinaigrette well you'll go fuck yourself alice and roman vinaigrette dijon mustard yeah olive oil mix that together first yeah then you put the vinegar in yeah red wine vinegar do love actual vinegar i do agree that balsamic vinegar is dead i i'm kind of with her on that but yeah.

49:53Mine's gone all funny. Yeah okay go on and then salt and pepper. You don't put any sweetness in it? No. Okay. Oh you see now Jesse's brother who's the king of salad dressing uses half a pot of honey. See I don't like sweet vinaigrette. He loves it. It's too much. Okay so I don't use vinaigrette. If I'm at home I don't use vinaigrette at all. I'll just put a little bit of olive oil and a tiny bit of maybe balsamic or lemon juice i like putting mayonnaise in mine sometimes oh jesse you've gone i don't i do like her herby salad that's just um lemon juice olive oil and salt and pepper i agree that is really good but i do think vinaigrette does have a place but you were very very quiet when she said that and i think you know so adamant about the whole thing i don't think you spent a lot of time in france um thank you so much to alice and roman and for coming over and before your many different um and she didn't make me feel like she didn't want to be here like she was very much like yeah it didn't feel like she was about to go she missed paul mescal to see us she missed paul mescal for us so there you go um loved meeting you completely inspired by your recipes please go and get you can either get well the new book's out now it's called sweet enough just like lenny and um if you don't if you don't fancy the sweet one you can try dining in or nothing fancy they're all bloody great Sweet Enough is out now and actually that could save us for many of these podcasts not knowing what to do for PUDS thank you Alison Roman we'll see you very soon and I really would like to hear from you about this ongoing salad or some egg or not or or or yeah I need to hear from you guys I need to get your opinions on this matter thank you

51:44Thank you.