Harlan Coban

0:03Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and it is a raining evening. Hi mum how are you? Knackered. I know, me too. Yeah. But we're really excited about this guest. Couldn't be more. We have a legendary writer that you introduced me to. Deviled his books. I mean, we've been reading him for decades. Yes. The crime thriller extraordinaire, Harlan Coburn. I think anyone that's read the Harlan Coburn novel, you go back for it. He's a great writer. And if you don't know Harlan Coburn's literature, you'll probably know his Netflix shows. Missing. Missing. The new one that we're going to talk about called Runaway.

0:47He's done Lazarus that's on Amazon Prime. With Bill Nighy, our mate. Bill Nighy. He also has written a book with Reese Witherspoon. I think we touched on what we've got to. I've just started it. It's good. Really good. Maggie. Yeah. The wrong and doctor. Really excited to have him. So we had such a great time with John Gregory Smith and he gave us his cookbook. So you've cooked one of his recipes? I've done one of his because he does make life really easy. And so I've done his slow cooked coconut beef shin curry. And you kind of whiz up a pace. That's the hardest thing that you do. It's got lemongrass in it.

1:27It's got garlic, ginger, chilies, coconut milk, cardamom pods, star anise. And so you just put it in the oven for four hours and just let it all kind of melt. So we're having that with some rice. And then I've done quite a pathetic like carrot ribbed salad with a bit of mint and coriander and a bit of rice wine vinegar and sesame oil and salt and pepper. And then for pudding, I have cheated. we had a lovely gathering here on Sunday where we both cooked for a lot of people and we got kindly given from our friend an Ottolenghi pecan pie because it was great so this is what Harlan Coburn's getting is it FHB?

2:11what's that? family hold back you're going to have to have a slither okay because Sam hasn't held back and he's also taken the star anise mascarpone and I'm fuming luckily I have some cream but I'm not happy So, yeah, that's what Harlan Coburn's getting. I think that's OK, isn't it? Sam is like a kind of... He's annoying. He's inconvenient. He's just annoying. And then he goes to the farmer's market because he wants to, like, you know, not be on Amazon and all that, which we totally respect. But then I've got a massive celery in my fridge that he doesn't know what to do with. Because it's too big.

2:45He doesn't know what to do with it. So I'm like, right, OK. Celery soup. We're all having celery soup or celery juice tomorrow. But yeah, anyway, Harlan Coben coming up on Table Manners.

3:05Harlan Coben. Yes. You're here. I am. I'm thrilled to be here. And you're very tall. I know. I'm taller than I look in the book jackets. You are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How tall are you? I'm 6 '4". I don't know what that is in years. That's a good height. I'm 194, 195. Did you ever play basketball when you were younger? Of course he did. Jesse, Myron Do you want to just go straight into it I've got to, I feel I'm meeting Myron Bolitor. Oh that's so sweet Aren't you kind? Is he modeled on you? He is with wish fulfillment Writers hate to admit that Oh no it's complete fiction But he's me with wish fulfillment I played basketball, he was better He's funnier, he's smarter Did you have an injury?

3:46No I wasn't good enough And you weren't a PI after No I wasn't a private eye I went into making them up instead. Yeah, well done. Thank you. But I'm in love with him. Oh, thank you. So I'm kind of in love with you as well. That's great. I just want to put that out there now. I don't want to say anything, but yes, I'm Myron Bolotar. Now that I hear this. This is going to be a bit like misery in a minute. She's going to tell the baits you and you're going to have a good story to write. Break your legs and you'll have to stay here forever. I'd love to. We're both very big fans because we've read so many of your books.

4:16Oh, that's so flattering. How nice. Thank you. Why isn't he a TV series yet? We're working on it, actually, over at Netflix. Yeah, it's in the works. We are working. You know, he's harder for me to let go of than the standalones. Interesting. If you don't like, which you did love, Michelle Keegan and Fulmey, it's one book. You know, if you don't love Jamie Nesbitt coming out in Runway, one book, one character. I've only written him once. But Myron is kind of my heart, and I'm very nervous about that series. Okay, but so who, are you allowed to say who would be your dream Myron to play? That's the problem.

4:48I don't have a dream. Oh, I can work with how he is. Okay, please, help me. Well, it depends when we're starting him and how old he is when we start. That's one of the questions, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, he could be anywhere. The series starts him around 28 to 30. He's now 50, so I've aged him. Not in real time, he's aged slower than I have. Yeah, of course, obviously. So do you feel like you put yourself in a character every time? Is there a bit of you in every character? Even the bad guys, even the villains. I mean, there's always a little, there has to be a little piece of you. I mean, writing is about empathy and getting in other people's heads.

5:22So you have to, I have to, you know, I think the villain is, is understandable in my own head as the heroes. It's part of what you do. You, it's not sympathy, which is something different. It's empathy, which is understanding what that person thinks or feels. But that was deep. Give me a moment. Okay. I like it. So let's talk about your new Netflix show, which is coming out on the 1st of January. so everyone can binge it. Yes. Run away. It's like, are you Jimmy Nesbitt's character in that? No. Well, it's hard to think of it now as Jimmy Nesbitt, isn't it? But yes, we call it, you know, it's January 1, so instead of Netflix and chill, it's hangover and chill.

6:01And stress out? No. Just sit there and... I don't think it's... Well, it's chilling. It's chilling. I mean, so, yeah, it's really exciting. We've seen three episodes. Oh, have you? Oh, great. Oh, thank you. You ready for more? Yeah. I just demanded you get the rest of them. I just don't. You're so prolific. Oh, thank you. But like, I just want to understand how your brain works. Because how do you manage to do so many twists and turns? Are you pretty like, I want to know a day in the life of Harlan Coburn. Like, is it full of drama and jeopardy? I mean. Yeah, but I'm not like, a song is three and a half minutes maybe.

6:39Yes, but still. And it's about one thing. I don't like have about five different subplots going at the same time. This one especially. This one's followed a lot. As you know, not just James Nesbitt, but Ruth Jones. How great is Ruth in this, by the way? She's fantastic. Isn't she a wonderful woman? Well, James Nesbitt told me he's been on the podcast. Yeah, he has. So I was with him today. And I know Ruth. Ruth's been on it. And we've had many. We've had all of them. Many Driver is also. And yeah, so it's such an honour and a thrill to be working. and they all have, you know. They're all great actors, yeah.

7:12I can't wait for people to see Ruth in this because it's such a different role for her. Yeah, she's a bit Miss Marple, isn't she? Yeah, she is. But she's understated, but very clever. Yeah, this is great. That's the clever thing about it. I'll wait till you see what happens in her stories. Oh, I can't wait for you to see it. I can't wait. You're going to call me when you see it. Okay. There's eight all together. Oh, there's eight? We've got another five, Jess. Yeah, you have another five. That'll keep me going. Good. Do you, I mean, okay, we're going to talk about food in a bit but like is that like how long how long does a book which is the quickest book that you've ever written they usually take me about nine months i compare it to childbirth yeah the best part is the idea yeah yeah yeah of course let me swear to it but um and some days you feel great and some days you feel like there's a dump truck parked on your bladder and at the end you just want the darn thing out you know at the end it's like you know Let's finish it.

8:06Get it out. Get this thing out. Do you write at home or do you have a studio where you go to to write? You know, most writers have like an office or a special spot. I can write any place and I use up places. I do whatever's working. So if like a certain coffee shop is working, whatever, I will be there until it stops working and then I'll change. One time, in fact, when I wrote The Stranger, one day I took for the very first time those rideshare, like Ubers first were coming into. So I took one to New York. And I felt guilty about spending the money. You know, you're justifying in your head, well, by the time I pay for parking, by the time I do this.

8:42And so I sat in the back with my notepad and I started to write. And I wrote really well. So for three weeks, I took Ubers everywhere and I finished a stranger in the back of an Uber. You're obsessive. Yeah, I'm weird. Yeah, that way, yeah. Do you write in a book or you're typing it? Both. I like my first draft, 10 pages or so at a time, to be handwritten. because there's something freeing and childlike about writing with your hand still. Do you use pencil or pen? Pen mostly, but I carry with me a pencil, a pen, like a magic marker. Like I carry everything with me at all times. And do you write in a moleskin book or just an A4 yellow pad?

9:21Oh, I love these questions, but I have both in my... So that way I have no excuse. I can't say, you know, I don't have exactly what I want. So I have a yellow legal pad. I have a nicer kind of a notebook and I carry them with me in my backpack almost all the time I don't know but don't you feel I've tried writing in books and I think it's so romantic when I'm writing songs and like you know I'll get my moleskin and then if I haven't if it's not good enough then I feel like I've spoiled the book do you never feel that? no because you're pretty good darling you might want some wine are you ready for some wine?

9:56sure I might do wine but I don't know if you have this or not. But I also, one of the things I love about when you're doing it with your hand is you can also cross out and still see. You delete, it's kind of gone forever. I draw arrows. I draw lines. And now the other thing, this is very important, a little writing advice if you want to try it. Again, as you know, you ask 10 writers how they do it, you get 11 different answers, right? But if I write by hand and then I put it in the computer, now my first draft is actually my second draft. right so I've already cut down on one draft so at a time that's how I do it I write 10 15 pages then I said oh enough of that I'm going to put it into the computer and so ready I've already done a second draft before I've even done a first draft what comes first the plot or the characters you know it's a chicken and egg question but I think you know most writers will answer character but the real answer they're lying the real answer is plot if you just invent a character it's not going to go anyplace unless you have an idea unless the book is kind of boring but character is more important than plot but you have to think plot you were asking about Runaway before the one that's coming out January 1st so the idea came to me two different ways this is what I mean by anything can stimulate an idea but I my teenage daughter who now actually writes on the show she wrote two of the episodes Charlotte I found some after a party I found some a cannabis paraphernalia in her room.

11:27So she's Paige. Well, actually, I do more cannabis than she has lately, but that's a whole other story we'll talk about another time or later on. But my mind spirals. Well, what if? What if my daughter was on drugs and I couldn't think of how to start the book? I have an apartment near Central Park and I'm sitting on a bench in Central Park in Strawberry Fields. And I'm thinking, how do I start this book and all of a sudden a busker starts playing music and I look up and I think wow what if I'm the father and I look up and that busker the person playing the music was my daughter who's been missing for six months wow what would I do what a cool way to start a tv show or a book and as you guys know that's what happens to James Nesbitt in the very first scene his daughter's been on drugs for six months he goes to the park he sits on that bench and he sees her and she's singing an elbow song isn't that great yeah and guy garvey has also been also been on the podcast and i text him as soon as i was watching i was like oh my god they're using your song and it sounds really good and i love that after she sings it they actually play the real song as well yeah i love the way they film that scene so so you say you write anywhere and whatever's working yes how inconvenient is that for your wife and your and your family they're used to me being like a little rude like you know i just sort of like whoa whoa guys quiet for a second And I just start, it's just the way my mind works.

12:50So I'm always thinking life to me is a writer's prompt, a what if, something that goes on. I ask what if all of the time. But I'm also home all the time. When we were raising the kids, I was actually the one more home. My wife's a pediatrician. So she had an actual real job. And I stayed home and was that an actual stay at home dad. You know, there's a lot of men that go, oh, no, I do more responsibility or 50-50. and when you start asking let's face it the wife still does more much more but in our case we really were pretty close to it no it's true and i got to play you know the other funny thing is you got to play like sort of the the male equivalent of dumb blonde when you're the only father staying at home so like when my kids would forget their lunch or something like that and i would go in the ladies in the office at school would be oh that's so sweet mr colbin you're trying a mother does the same thing they're calling like the police on them you know like how could you be such a negligent mother but it was cute i'm like you know me i'm a forgetful dumb man i'm sorry i'm trying my best so you get away with that kind of thing it's funny isn't it because mini drivers uh isn't she a pediatrician in yes in that okay i'm interested to see what happens to mini because i feel like we there's yet oh yeah okay oh yeah there's a lot more it's a it's banana pants it's a lot of stuff and also um gone before goodbye yes she's a doctor maggie is a doctor well she struck off oh we've had reese with a spoon oh i know she was just on yeah i know reese was just on right before we came we came back yeah i'm interested by how because i know that reese had the plot or an idea she had the and the character she had the idea of making it a doctor okay her as she probably i think told you maybe on her podcast her parents are are both in the medical field her father was a an army surgeon and her mom an army nurse a military nurse so That's where she came up.

14:37She had the idea of her being a doctor. So she says, look, I've got this character. I've got this idea. I mean, you're either going to accept that and be like, I can work with this. This is interesting. Was it easy to then enter into that story when somebody else has kind of given you a character idea? Was it a very different experience? It was very strange. All the way through, it was sort of strange. because, you know, I know Reese and this sounds like the most immodest. How did you know her? We met a number of years ago at a conference and we were both kind of fanboying, fangirling over each other, which was really sweet.

15:16And we keep in touch. This is the most immodest sounding story in the world, but Reese called me on the phone and said, I'm going to be in New York. I have this idea I want to kind of talk to you about us doing together. And this sounds, I was very hesitant. I'm not that guy. I don't, I collaborate on TV shows. I don't collaborate on novels. I've never done it before. I didn't really have an interest in doing it. One is a collaborative process. One is a solo process. So it's kind of like, how do I tell Reese I don't really want to, it's not for me. So Reese came to my apartment in New York and she started pitching me the idea.

15:51And I'm like, oh, dang, that's good. We could do something with that. And I grabbed my yellow legal pad out and I said, you know what else we could do we could do that and she's like we can do this we went back and forth for three hours and at the end reese looks at me goes so are you gonna do it and i'm like yeah let's do it and we had such fun she's such a delight she's so smart um she knows story as well as anybody i've ever met she knows how to hand you could see why she's a boss right even when you sat with her she just knows how to handle people yeah she's like the like the best life coach um she's inspiring She really is.

16:27Yes. How old were you when you wrote your first novel? Wrote or published. I mean, I started to... I mean, my first published novel was accepted when I was 26. Nice. So, and I started my first... I had three, I think, failed ones or... I shouldn't say failed ones because they're not failures. Actually, the best way to learn to write a novel is to write a novel. Obviously, yeah. Well, people don't really know that. Did you do English at university? I didn't. What did you do? I was a political science major, which is a euphemism for I have no idea what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. Which university did you go to?

17:04Amherst College in Massachusetts. Oh, wow. So is that far? Did you grow up in New Jersey? Yes. Jewish family? Yes. Yeah. Friday night dinners? Well, no. It's kind of funny because I know we'll be talking quite a bit about food. My mother was a very modern woman. She was an early feminist. She marched with Gloria Stein. And let me also preface this by saying a fantastic and wonderful mother. Both of my parents died too young. A wonderful woman, but the world's worst cook and hated cooking and made no bones about it. I think Myron's mother is a bad cook. Yes. Not to get too heavy, but so I lost my parents at a fairly young age.

17:43And Myron and Myron's parents are my parents. Yeah, I thought that, yes. And if they had survived, this is what I imagine my relationship would be with them. Yeah. So I live vicariously, and I get too melodramatic during those scenes when I write them. They're a little bit corny. They're not. Oh, thank you. I love them. Thank you. So that's my parents. Because anyone who's had a Jewish mother or a Jewish father, you feel that. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Although I think my mom was a better cook than your mom. No, mine was, obviously. My mother was a terrible cook. My grandmother was a terrible cook.

18:17We came from a long line. In fact, before I came here, I asked my brothers, I go, did mom make anything that was good? and they were like no our favorite dinner was when dad made scrambled eggs that's how bad of a cook she made this meatloaf with like store-bought like tomato sauce and ragu where she just like it was like the worst quality meat and just sort of poured that on and so we have nightmares basically about the food that she actually cooked when she was busy fighting the system that's well that's part of it i mean i grew up you love this i grew up this is in the 70s okay i had a we had a bumper sticker and t-shirts that said my favorite one was women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition this is what i grew up with but what's your heritage so coban was cohen cohen before my father my father changed because my mother was like there's too many cohen's where we were living okay so he changed to are you polish mostly we are well So my grandfather was born in Jerusalem, and his ego date at least to the 1800s in Jerusalem.

19:23He left in the 1918, 1920. And the rest is basically, if you watch Fiddler on the Roof, that's my upbringing. The pale settlement. Yeah, shuttles, yeah. And in fact, my grandparents, my grandmother on my father's side never spoke English. She only spoke Yiddish. And when she did see Fiddler on the Roof not long before she died, my father told me that she ran out of the theater kind of crying because it was like her life story. She felt that she really was relating to it. So three of the grandparents are probably that. And then the one came out of Jerusalem. What's your favorite Yiddish word? Do you use it?

20:01I can't. No, I don't really use them too much unless I'm – but my favorite Yiddish expression, which I say in English because I use it in almost every book because I think it's genius. It's four words. Man plans, God laughs. Man plans, God laughs. And always a favorite. So didn't come from great chefs. Are you a good chef? No. I'm a great eater. But I'm not. I'm not. And, you know, I actually find it like funny because growing up, no men cooked back in those days, except the great chefs. It was very sort of sexist thing when you think about it. Right. but nowadays like all my friends think they're great cooks and they're not like all the men like because they want they want to seem like they're in touch with this sort of a thing they they kind of get into it and it's almost like they like instead of sports they get into that so they invite you around and they're washing the lobster off in the sink yes it's performative it's all performative do you know what i mean it feels very performative a man with a barbecue is insufferable i hate to say it and i don't want to sound mean but i think a lot of male cooking is performative oh they it's always very flamboyant and it's always oh let me do this and i'll just they don't follow recipes they think they can jug a bit of this and a glug of that and yeah yeah i don't want to goof on on men's but i see the same thing with like it's like the the saturday dad in the park and he's talking really loudly to his kids so everybody knows he's being he's the dad you know that dad that you always see in the park and he's like he's like Like, you know, oh, I let my wife rest today for 14 minutes while I took you out.

21:37Like, it's a big deal. He wants everybody to notice it and get applause for it. Your mum did a really good job on you being a feminist. You're like, yeah, a real feminist. So you live in New York now? Yes, New Jersey and New York. Oh, you have about two places? Yes, well, New Jersey, people don't realize, like, the suburbs of New Jersey are literally 30 minutes from New York. Yeah, my niece used to live in Cliffside Park. Oh, yeah, it's not too far from where I am. And you go across on the boat? I think I've sung in Hoboken. Oh, yes, Hoboken. Yeah, which is really nice. Yeah, Hoboken's cool. So what is the best thing about New Jersey?

22:10You know, it's New Jersey. I remember an induction into the New Jersey Hall of Fame, and Bruce Springsteen was talking about Danny DeVito, the actor. And he was describing why Danny DeVito was like New Jersey. And he's like, Danny's tough, New Jersey's tough. Danny's small, New Jersey's small. Danny's dense New Jersey's dense We have like a little bit Of an edge to us We are the I call it the S's Sopranos Springsteen And Sinatra Yeah They're all from New Jersey That's big And they're all like We're kind of Half of us is a suburb Of New York Half of us is a suburb From Philly And we have a little Chip on our shoulders Because people don't You know think We're our own identity And it's a lot of But it's also A lot of suburbs A lot of what I've written about Myron lives in Livingston, New Jersey And so that kind of suburban life where you kind of go out and you want the picket fence and you want the two car garage and you want to raise 2.7 kids.

23:08And there's a bar, there's a barbecue in the backyard and there's a basketball court in the driveway and it's corny. And yet it's the American dream and beautiful. And both of those things really appeal to me as a writer. I, I, I love that picture that's painted of that. Totally. Yeah. I think it's, I have a romantic and skewed version of it. Do you have to love Springsteen if you're from New Jersey? It's not a state law, but maybe it should be. Right. Okay. I do. I love Springsteen. Do you? Have you seen the film? I just saw the new one, yeah. We saw it. Did you like it? We had him on. Not Springsteen.

23:45You saw Jeremy, right? Did you ever go to any of those concerts that Springsteen used to do in the local bars? Because I feel like, well, you're younger. I've been, no, I'm not. But I've probably been, I'm not one of those guys who counts, but I was realizing lately, I've probably been to 100 Springsteen shows. Because for a while also, it was really difficult to get tickets at one point when he came back. And I was friends with a couple of the guys in the band, so I could get a certain amount of seats each night, but I had to go. They wouldn't just let me buy them for somebody else. So I could get a 10-night stand once at Madison Square Garden, I think 2000, and I went all 10 nights.

24:24Oh my gosh. It was fantastic. How nice. It was 10 at night. You know all the words to all the songs. Yeah, I think so. Pretty much. Probably by the third night. Okay, which is your karaoke Springsteen song, if you had to? Probably Jungle Land or Still Born to Run is still a favorite. Did you like Nebraska? I did, but, you know, it's not my, to be honest with you, it's not my favorite of Bruce's albums, even though I, it's sort of like, again, this feels performative when people say, oh, I listen to Nebraska. I'm not into Born the USA or Born to Run. You know, I'm into Nebraska. I get it. And there's some great songs on Nebraska.

25:03And Atlantic City is one of my favorite songs of all time. But no, it's not my favorite. I'm going to sort out the dinner. Yeah, good. But whilst I sort it out, you're going to carry on asking about food. Oh, food. I can't talk about anything else. Well, no, but we should do our job. I was going to cast the whole series of the Myron Bolotar series. I do need your mother's help with this, just so you know. Let's not pick on money, don't you? But I was also thinking we have a lot in common, because you work with your daughter, which is what I do. Oh, do you? No, I'm kidding. How do you find that?

25:43Much better than I thought. It wasn't my idea to do it in the first place. I work with a woman named Nicholas Schindler from Key Street Productions. she's probably your best TV producer. To give you an idea of some of the shows that Nicola has created. Okay. Happy Valley, Les Tangler, Halifax. Oh my God. Queer as Folk. Most of Sally's early shows and Russell Davies shows, Nicola Schindler is one of the producers on. Okay. So she works with us three. So she's fantastic to work with and she had recognized my daughter's talent and I just didn't think it would be smart to be having her and she's like no we need this voice we need her and so nicola brought her in to write on our shows and then i'm bragging about my own daughter but charlotte then had her own show called dead hot which was on amazon prime here in the uk and still is and now now she's hard to get in difficult oh my god so you know we we we don't we keep distance yes now after i i taught her right this is what we do right we raise these kids raise these children and they overtake you.

26:48That's right. Let's pitch about having our children here overtake us. We did do a show in America called Amazon Prime. They always stick my name in front of it, which is a little embarrassing, but the name of the show is Harlan Coben's Shelter. Charlotte wrote most of that. That was a young adult show. It was a young adult show. That was Charlotte. It was in New Jersey. We were on set together every day. We get along great, but but there is that parent dynamic. Like if I sort of snap at her a little bit, she gets like, you can't talk to me that way, dad. I'm like, but you're the only one who talks to me like that, Charlotte, because she's the only one who will clap back right at me.

27:29So, you know. How many children do you have? I have four. Oh, they're all talented, right? Yes, they're all very talented, but in different ways. So Charlotte is a writer. Ben, my number two, he actually runs the production end of my business. this my third is a will um this is really braggy he's a nasa he's a nasa nasa flight control he actually is a rocket scientist oh my god he's 26 years old or 27 years old he'll be involved in a rocket scientist he literally is are you right i know and my fourth is is uh getting her master's degree in um genetics so the last two are science he take after my wife probably the pediatrician Is she still working?

28:14She was for a while. She just finished doing a job. She was the Dean of Admissions for Columbia University's Medical School. Wow. And she just left that and is looking to see what medical things she's going to do next. But she was, yeah, it was a big job having to pick who goes. So when you're converting a book into a screenplay, are you very involved? Yes. We have this team. I mentioned Nicholas Schindler from P Street. Danny Brocklehurst, who writes the first couple and the last couple on all the shows. And a man named Richard Fee. We call ourselves The Core Four. This is, I think, our eighth show we've done together.

28:52The Five, Safe, The Stranger, Stay Close, Missing You, Fool Me Once, Lazarus. Fool Me Once, yeah. And now this one, Runaway. Yeah, because I just watched the first episode of Lazarus, because we'd had Bill Nighy on. And I was interested. It's Sam Claffin, isn't it? Yes. yeah yeah he's very good yeah he's a pill of delight the most delight oh my goodness I know he is I usually have dinner with him when I'm I mean well you're lucky because he usually looks alone I know it's just the two and when I invite somebody else along he's not really that happy he likes it he likes it just the two of us and he always arrives early with a book he's always there first with a book and you know Bill Nye Bill Nye was the only time I think when I was actually writing something when i wrote lazarus i pictured bill nye from day one if i could get bill nye from day one and the fact that when we asked him he immediately said yes and had read some of the stuff and he was just and you say oh you know don't meet your heroes but bill was one where he actually exceeded my expectations he's a delight yes besides supernatural charisma he also has a genuine openness and vulnerability that's yeah you know It's ridiculously charming to have in a friend.

30:12He's very self-effacing, isn't he? But very elegant. This looks fantastic. Well, I've never done this recipe, so actually we'll find out. This looks fantastic. So, yeah, this is like a tray bake of sorts. I'm quite into tray bakes because I basically, I was at a fashion awards last night and I wanted to make something gorgeous, so it's just been sitting in the oven for ages. It's a beef shin, coconut curry. I hope you like it. Oh, it's wonderful. Oh, good. Maybe that's the most. Oh, it's really wonderful. It's very fragrant, isn't it? Yes, exactly.

30:57Last Supper. You're going to a desert island where you're not going to be able to have your favourite food. I'm not going to be able to have my favourite food. No, no. this is the last supper before you're banished to a desert island without your typewriter or out your computer no it's allowed okay maybe you can have a notebook but what are you gonna eat and drink starter main dessert and drink of choice wow okay um i'm probably going to if i I'm probably going to mix and match. Fine.

31:36So, I love foie gras. It sounds like I'm going to go right early rich, but one of those sort of appetizer foie gras from certain Parisian restaurants that I just... I know that sounds so spoiled, doesn't it? You spend a lot of time in Paris, don't you? I do a lot. Oh, tell us where to go on Monday. We're going. I'm taking mum for her birthday. Oh, wow. We'll find places to go. um how nice you guys are going to paris just for the day no it's my present that's so sweet so foie gras in paris where are you going for it that's a good question you know i haven't been there in a while so um i don't know which restaurants are still around and i'm drawing a blank at the ones i i let also here's the thing i don't i'm not one of those who has tremendous this loyalty to particular restaurants.

32:24I like to try different ones all the time. So one time when I was in France, I was going to a book festival in a town called Briefe, which is known for its cuisine. Way out, about three or four hours, I think, took us to get there. And one of the local papers had asked me about food, and I mentioned how much I love foie gras. So we get there, and literally every restaurant we go to, the chef comes out of the kitchen with his own special foie gras and puts it in front of me and stands over my shoulders. And that's not a meal, that's not a thing you want to eat more than once a week. Yeah. Tops, even if you love it.

33:02It's not, and we had like three straight days where for two meals a day, I was so sick after it was over. You were like the ghost. Right, so it took me a little while by the end to go back to foie gras. I just think the French do food great. I mean, they really do. I've had a number of good three-star Michelins here also. Do you like a Michelin place? Do you like a tasting menu? Fat duck and the Waterside Inn. They're just interesting experiences that I've had here in London. I've been to either one of those. New York's great for food. Of course. We're always, that's the thing, it's almost not like this.

33:43So this is a bad analogy, but I'm going to make it anyway. I never reread books I never watch a TV show I've already watched Because there's so many things out there I haven't seen yet So a lot of times with restaurants Even if I love them I want to try something new And similar to what we are doing tonight When people ask me what I want when I go I want what the chef thinks is best I love everything Do you eat everything? I eat everything So there's nothing I don't eat So I ask I'm always wanting to ask the chef what is your favorite? What's the one you want to dazzle me with? Has that ever backfired?

34:20Foie gras. When I got too much foie gras. But not really. I mean, I'm trying to think of some instance when it has. But there's nothing I really don't eat. So I love to experiment with food. I think that's part of the fun and the joy is surprise me. You know, I got to one time eat at what's the very famous restaurant in Spain, the one that was number one in the world forever and ever? Bully. I don't know if you ever had the luck to go there. No. It's kind of a funny story, but I published in Spain, and my younger brother, who lives here in England, he's lived here for 30 years. We were going there when it was at its height, and he goes, as brothers do, I know you think you're really cool, but there's no way.

35:07My boss can't get into Bully. There's no way you can get into Bully. It's a year and a half wait list. so I called my publisher I'm like there's gotta be a way just so I can stick it in my brother's face you know how it is getting into Bully and he goes oh not a problem we actually publish his books it won't be a problem at all perfect oh how funny so we get there and we get to go to Bully and we arrive there and my brother who's a foodie is just like in shock looking around did you case him with you of course that was the whole thing we were all going I have two brothers and all three of us went with our families and we you know not our families our wives It was not for young kids.

35:42We had young kids at the time. And we get there and we get greeted by the owner. And he says, oh, we have three different tables for you, Harlan. You can sit either in the center of the restaurant or you can sit in the kitchen or have a private terrace overlooking the ocean. And I'm just looking at my brother like this. And I go to him, Craig, which one would you like to eat at? And he was like just faced her mind. So I said to the owner, what do you think? He goes, well, it's 36 courses. So I was in the first. They're like this big. They're like this big. Okay. First 24, why don't you sit in the kitchen and watch?

36:15And the last 12, sit outside on a deck and enjoy the view. And I'm like, Craig, does that sound like a good idea? Oh, God. So, you know, I'm really sticking it to him as you can, as you would. Obviously. As you would. And so, but that was a perfect meal in a way because besides being great, what he did, every taste was a surprise. There was something that looked like an olive that tasted like an Oreo cookie. It was like that kind of a meal. and I love being, so I'm always I like to be, I like adventurous That's why you like Heston Blumenthal as well then because like the kind of snail porridge the meat fruit or you know Darling could I have some more water?

36:52Yeah, sure I mean not every day No, sure So did we get your main actually? Are you going to go with Chef's Choice? I'm going to have Froid Gras Boy that's really a tough one I think the thing I end up ordering most, if that's a fair way of putting it, is a really good pounded down veal milanese. But I mean like a really good one. Have you got a sweet tooth? Well, not really. No. You know, it's funny. I was thinking this the other day. I went to a restaurant in New York that had one of those. Now it's very big to have tasting menus. Every restaurant, and then they upsell you. It's almost like you're buying a car, right?

37:35Don't you want the better wheels? So you order it and maybe it's$85 for that. And then it's like, oh, but if you get the Wagyu, it's$15 and they're upselling you. But what I was thinking when I was there, and I'll ask you guys if you guys agree. I don't like fancy desserts. I'd rather have a vanilla ice cream sundae if I'm going to do it or something more basic. When they serve me some kind of exotic dessert, I'm more of a basic guy. like put ice cream on a pecan pie or an apple pie. That's it. That's as fancy as I want to get or a sundae. Are you with me on this? I'm with you. And I'm also really glad that you just said pecan pie because that's what you're having for PUD.

38:17Really? Yes. Dang. And I have to say, I have not made it. I've done a Nora Ephron where I bought it because that's how she said to do good hosting. You make, but you also rely on other people that are better than you. So it's an Ottolenghi pecan pie and it's really, really good. So I'm really glad that that's what you're going to have. Yeah, no. You can have it with ice cream too. Are you with me this on dessert though? Like I don't, you know, sometimes I get these fancy merengues or whatever and it's just like, it's not better. Deconstructed, I don't want it. I'd like it constructed, please. Thank you.

38:48I don't know. I think when you see some very creative pastry chefs and it looks so beautiful. It looks beautiful. And I'm going to get a lot of hate for that from people out there. You're going to get a lot of hate for this whole menu, Harlan. You went with foie gras and then veal. It's true. And then you've offended everyone. I feel like more chicken, chicken Milanese, let's change it to chicken Milanese so I don't get in trouble with the, with the, Would you have an egg on top? I also, yeah, I do like the egg on top. Another great one is the, is carbonara. I love carbonara sauce, but I have, I don't know if she's known in this country, but there's a chef, an American TV chef named Rachel Ray.

39:26It's quite popular in America and she's a close friend and she makes it, or the way she told me that you have to make it again I don't make things people tell me but you don't make any cream the mistake that most people make is cream you're supposed to use the water yeah and so it actually somewhat healthy too I know not that that's necessarily a factor in our in our discussion but you know also big in America right now is the my kids love it we do this all the times the omakases which is the tasting menu of the Japanese you know things like that Are you big in Japan as well? I don't sell as well in Japan as I do elsewhere, but I'm published in Japan.

40:08Where's your best place to sell? France, Poland. France and Poland per capita are my two biggest countries. And lots of your books have been made into French dramas, haven't they? And Polish, actually. There's three Netflix Polish shows. Oh, really? Yeah. There's three Netflix Polish. I love Poland. Yeah, I do too. Isn't it fun? They're lovely. Yeah. And you can eat pierogin. You can eat pierogin. And they treat you well. Yeah. That's the kind of thing, like, as soon as I go to Warsaw, pierogies and vodka, let's do it. I want to do what you want to do. Totally. Take me to your place. That's how I am as a food person.

40:42I want that. I want what's good locally. What's your drink of choice? Lately, bourbon. Oh. Yeah, lately I've been a bourbon guy. And I'm not a big drinker. Okay. We have the Hebrew faith. They're not good. I've broken that spell. Sort of my mom. But I have two drinks. I try taking my pants off over my head. It's not a pretty sight. Oh, okay. No, I like wine. If we were opening your fridge, we were coming over to yours, what would we find in your fridge? Staples. Well, here's the thing. My wife's an excellent cook. Oh, wow. Yeah, so I married an excellent cook. Well done. Is that why you married her?

41:19No. Okay. But she's, you know, and she's one of those ones who can pick up and do anything very quickly, and you give her a few ingredients, and she can make anything fast, well. But the one thing she does like is she likes it to be as fresh as possible. So we have very little in our fridge because we're ordering it that day. If we're having it that night, it hasn't been sitting in the refrigerator for three or four days. So the only thing we have in the fridge is more like long-term-ish kind of stuff. So in our fridge, we'll have mayonnaise and ketchups, but it doesn't really have that nice piece of chicken with a nice piece.

41:55Yeah, but those come in like, almost every day. So it's not sitting in the fridge very long. You know, the crisper will have it. We do the vegetables. We do various dishes. She made this dish not dissimilar to this. It was a, this with a little Chinese spin, chow feng kind of a thing that she made recently. She's very good with the chicken Milanese, pounding it down quickly, doing all. So she's really very talented. And I mentioned before this. She's got four children. She's got to be good at it. She's good very fast. Yeah, yeah. So she's always been good and she loves to cook for people. You know, that is one of her love languages.

42:32Where are you writing at the moment that's working? Is anywhere working in London for you? So I've been here just, I came in the day before yesterday. So I did media all day today and we'd had the premiere for Runaway. Sorry. No, no, no, no, no. It's been a delight. But I wrote the entire flight over. I'm doing my first sort of nonfiction book. It's kind of a partial writer's writing guide and partial memoir, a little bit of both. Wow. Because what I realized when I was doing, you mentioned the BBC Maestro class we were talking about earlier. When I was doing it, I'm always that writer says, oh, I just make it up.

43:09I just make it up. But I realized everything actually did come from my life. So I'm trying to write both a memoir. And I wrote two books last year, and that's too many. So I was just like, I needed, for the first time in my career, I needed a break from the novel writing. Do you ever have to have help with, do you have like a private investigator mate that you've got on the blower being like, listen, now I'm just going to do this. Or is it all from your imagination? Well, I can call anybody. I mean, like if I have a question about being a singer-songwriter, I'll just call you on the phone. Sure.

43:41And you'll tell me what it's like. Okay. And that's where I'll get the good information. I don't do a lot of research reading because if I talk to you, I'll get that one little nugget that won't be in a book and I'll use that. It'll be interesting and different and feel more authentic than if I read a book on being, I'm doing your job. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I totally do. I would ask you like, what's the weirdest thing that happened? Tell us right now. What's the weirdest thing that like, that happens to you when we're backstage, what are you thinking right before you come out? Let's start with that.

44:08Like, what is your last thought before you leave the dressing room? I really should have gone for a wee before I got the leotard on. That's my main thing. It's about, about weeing. And also it's my main thing. It's probably, and also probably thinking if I, I mean, mine are very neurotic Jewish things. Like, did I digest early enough? Mine is not the best thing for you. No, that's perfect. You see, like the digesting thing, I would use that. Okay. Right? The singer thinking that. And you would say, that's something he didn't read in a book. That sounds like something that's real and possible. So that you worry about, like, did I digest my food?

44:41Should I have eaten an hour earlier? Wait, I shouldn't have had that. I took meat tonight when I should have had chicken. Whatever that is, that's the one thing I'm always looking for as a writer. So that's so that people can relate to these people more both relate and it just doesn't that feel more real to you? I mean if I tell you about that rather than she was nervous and she was pacing and she tested her voice out that those are the cliche things you think of what's going on. Yeah, but no you're worried about your digestion. And that that is the kind of thing that when you when you write it makes the character more authentic and real and brings them to life and more like you as you just pointed.

45:14Who do you read if you're not reading Harlan Coben? I really only read Harlan Coben. I'm trying to misbead. I read so many people. Who's one of your favorites? Oh, I can go on. My favorite author of all time is Philip Roth. Believe it or not. I have to say, my husband is upstairs. And my husband, who never really read when he was younger, and when we started going out, I would be reading so much because I hadn't done an English literature degree then at that point, so I was still into reading. And we would just give him Harlan Coben. and he was like, it transformed him. Actually, he was, but he was, he'll come and say hi in a bit, but like you got him into reading and actually made him enjoy reading and he was so excited that you were here.

46:00That's the sweetest thing I've ever heard. That's so sweet. When I hear that kind of comment, you know, that's, it's really, it's very touching. Thank you. So, so we have the dessert. It's a, what do you call it? Pecan. Pecan. Pecan. Pecan. No, but, no, but what you, pecan. Pecan. And what did our American friends say at the weekend? What do you say? I say pecan, but I'm English. I do say pecan too. I say pecan also. Okay, but then our friends said pecan. He's wrong. Okay, he's wrong. Okay, fine. Well, we've got a pecan pie. Beautiful. And I've tried to recreate the whipped cream that they made.

46:35They came with it because my husband ate all the bloody whipped cream. So I've done this with orange zest, a bit of vanilla extract, a little bit of icing sugar, and I think that's it. So yeah, it's pecan pie with a bit of cream. There you go. This is like my mom would buy. Oh yeah? I said my mom never baked, but you know. My wife doesn't like to bake either. She's not a sweet eater. I'm not bothered. So yeah, exactly. She would rather concentrate on the cooking. Baking, she would rather farm out to somebody else. Before we let you go, Harlan, what is a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere?

47:09Oh God. Hmm. a nostalgic taste that we can transport me back well to my parents it's probably not a good taste um the thing is as much as my mother was a terrible cook my grandfather was a true foodie and so as a kid I would be eating either something horrendous at home or he would take me to La Bernardin in New York or something like that there was like no in between but I would think actually the family dinners that you mentioned were at the Golden China restaurant. They just weren't cooked. But we had every Saturday night, we went with my grandfather, my mother's, my one aunt and her family and my uncle and his family.

47:54All of us would go to this place called the Golden China restaurant. And I've never been able to duplicate the shrimp and lobster sauce we had there. Whenever I taste the shrimp and lobster sauce, I'm like, almost. But never Golden China in West Orange, New Jersey in the early 1970s, late 1960s. That's what brings me mostly back, the Chinese food that I had. That's my family meal. That's my comfort food, if you will, is the Golden, which hasn't been open in about 40 years. But that was what I think about when I, you know, he always took us out to eat. That's lovely. Yeah. The shrimp and lobster, I don't think they do it here.

48:32I don't think they do it. I'm not sure they do it anywhere, any more the way they did. We always ordered the same thing. He had a ton of spare ribs, my grandfather A ton of dim sum Shrimp with lobster sauce And then maybe like one surprise And it was a table bigger than this It was maybe 10 or 12 of us And every Saturday, the entire family I would say from about 1968 to 1974-ish With a couple of exceptions That was our thing And we looked so forward to it Because again, it was edible So your mom never made chicken soup? No My grandmother can make chopped chicken liver. That was her only thing that she could kind of make.

49:12But she only did it once a year, you know, on Passover or something like that, once a year. In fact, when we used to have the turkey dinners for Thanksgiving, either my mother, because it was still sexism, my mother or my aunt would make them. And they were both horrendous cooks. And it would be literally like, I hated turkey my whole life because when they would cut it, it would be like shavings more than it was meat. it would it would almost be like sawdust kind of coming off they had one of those electric Yeah, so it would be one of those and it would come off like it would flake more than it would be oh it's just terrible my uncle married a woman who could cook we were all so happy for thanksgiving you know so the family thanksgiving oh it was terrible we just drown it in the rich.

49:56Did you celebrate thanksgiving this year? Yes um I am fortunate enough to live on the parade route oh so we have people come over in the morning very early because the parade starts like at 8 8 30 in the morning and the balloons come again right past our window and I don't care how old you are you're a kid when giant Snoopy goes by your window it's still to this day it I love watching people's reaction who have never seen it before it's so cool if you ever want to come over for Thanksgiving it's worth it just to come see this parade and when it's uncomfortable inside so you don't have about the weather comes right by the balloons come right by so we do that every thanksgiving we stuff as many people as we can to the apartment and the problem is there's new you know no one wants to not go so it's just jammed now but i'm hoping to figure a way of starting to cycle people in and out because it's getting it's it's really hard you know because it's just so much fun and the balloons are right there and they're such a great spirit so yes we always celebrate what do you serve at your Thanksgiving kind of breakfast?

51:00The breakfast? Bagels, schmear, lox. Where are you getting them from? I'm getting them from Ridgewood Hot Bagels in New Jersey. He drives in from New York. New York bagels are not as good as New Jersey bagels. I'm sorry, they're not. They're just not. So I have this guy I've known for years. He will drive in. I have to go meet him because the streets are closed off near my apartment. I got to walk two blocks down. 6am, he brings enough for over 100 people that come. We have over 100 people come and that's and then we have so much leftover lox i mean i can't where do you get your lox from him he brings it all white white fish you know white fish bread yeah egg salad different egg salad yeah cream cheese chive cheese some kind of surprise cheese he always brings i think this year was jalapeno cheese all you know all kinds of bagels his thank goodness he pre-slices them yeah right and then and and i keep saying to him maybe come in the night before and he gets like mad at me because no i gotta make those bagels in the morning so they come to me they're still hot you know what i mean that kind of thing so i said maybe if we didn't serve as good a food we'd have less people showing up so so by the time dinner comes around frankly i'm not much in the mood for turkey anyway because i eat so much of that it's no that's so addictive tasting that's so fun i love that yes i'll be there next thanksgiving there we go come bring them to thanksgiving now we've talked about thanksgiving but any christmas traditions in your house um well we we have the tree and all that sort of thing my wife and i neither one of us are particularly uh religious but we so we celebrate everything and the kids are kind of like if there's a present involved i'm good you know what i mean but a lot of times we also because one of the few times my kids are grown now my youngest is 24 my oldest is 31 but over christmas is usually of time I can get them all away.

52:48And that's the most important thing, as you know, to have a chance to have all four of my kids. A full set, yeah. So we usually now on Christmas are in a Caribbean island or Costa Rica or this year we're doing a boat in the British Virgin Islands. Oh, wow. Yeah. And it's just that you're together. I was going to ask you if you ever went on holiday. Yeah, that's... But when I'm on holiday, I write, actually. I like to... Of course you do. Well, you know what it is? life is about balance. This is my own little personal quick philosophy. But like, you know, you're eating right, you're exercising, your relationship with your spouse, your kids, your friends, all that.

53:29All that for me could be in balance. But if I'm not writing well, it's going to go out of balance. So if I can do an hour in the morning, I wake up before the kids or whatever else, which isn't hard on vacation, and I just write for an hour, it just keeps me in balance. Does that make sense? so it's like your workout exactly people meditate or they have hobbies that are creative my life is creative psychopaths and killers and kidnappers and yeah well we can't wait and because you're so prolific we're sure there's another one coming out probably the year after or even six months so we can't wait to see more on Netflix and read more thank you for being here thank you guys thank you so much for having me such a pleasure thank you

54:24Mum, tell everyone what you just did. As he was leaving, I gave him a big hug and said goodbye, Myron. He said, that's all right, that's a mistake. I said, I'm so sorry. He said, that's a mistake I don't mind you making. Harlan Coburn was so lovely. So delighted. So interesting. We need to get more writers on here. Yeah, it made me think maybe I could write. Oh my God, Lenny. I'm going to watch the masterclass that he did. Social worker come podcaster come thriller. Thriller. I'm excited. Yeah, but he's such a sweet man. How does he vice against such violent people? I know. That's what I thought.

55:03Because a lot of his films are very, his series are. Why didn't we ask him that? I don't know, actually. Can you text him? Cocked up. We know he cocked up. we'll get him on again. Yeah. Loved Harlan Coben. What a guy. Runaway is out on the 1st of January on Netflix. And if you like Fool Me Once and you like Safe and you like all those, those are all him, and you should go and watch Runaway on the 1st of January. I love a tall man. Oh. Right. You just love him. I love him. He was fab. Yeah. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.