Jacinda Ardern

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1:36Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and we're in New Cross. And mum's got another new jumper on. Got a new jumper on? Does it see a bit of a sun tan? I do. How was Marrakesh? Sitting in the medina yesterday with the sun on my face. What did you come back with? Did you come back with some cumin? Some saffron? I came back with olive oil from the Eureka Valley, which is particular. That's where they grow. They have all their olives and that's where they get their best olive oil. Delicious. So I came back with a litre of that. I bought, obviously, things for your children. That's very kind of you.

2:13Yeah. I went to Margate. So you were in Marrakesh and I was in Margate for my annual meetup with my girlfriends. And? And we ate pretty well. Okay. I have to say, I didn't go there last time, but shout out to Angela's. They have Angela's and Dory's in Margate, and it was absolutely amazing fish. I ate a lot of tagine, so we stayed at a fantastic place called Kasbah Bar Urika, which was wonderful, really beautiful, and the food was delicious, kind of home-cooked. Lots of tagine with preserved lemon and olives, and we also discovered there was no alcohol in a lot of places. yeah which um so you've basically been on a well we yeah been on a detox rehabilitation center thing is jill and i when we arrived at this fabulous restaurant called nomad in marrakech oh i've heard about that didn't phil somebody feed phil i think talks about nomad well it's a fantastic restaurant bit like a very quick in and out but we got there all ready to go to this restaurant recommended by time out 10 best restaurants because no alcohol there so we spent the whole time googling where we could get wine while we were trying to eat our meal.

3:25Did you find wine? Yes we did. Well we have a massive massive guest coming on today. Kiora Jessie. Hello in Maori and yeah we've got the youngest ever female Prime Minister. It's also the only pregnant Prime Minister ever. Really? Yeah. She was also the most efficient at dealing with Covid in the Western world she is the ex-prime minister of New Zealand we have Jacinda Arden coming to New Cross wow I know wonder what she'll make of New Cross darling well it ain't New Zealand it's not New Zealand today um and so I've made something I suddenly remembered that we had the podcast on Monday and I hadn't done my Okada order so whilst I was out with my girlfriends we went around the dinner table on the Friday night and I said what is quick and simple and delicious and my friend Samantha said that Easter bell fridges and I've never done an Easter bell fridge recipe on here and she's fantastic and it's tomato and turmeric fish curry with udon noodles oh how lovely delish and you make the sambal which is so delicious and then you add coconut milk so quick I mean I've got to kind of assemble it but it will once I've assembled it it's going to be about 10 minutes and then I've done Alison Roman's semi-fredo like berry semi-fredo which I made last night who knows it tasted delicious when I put it in remind me I need to get it out about 15 minutes before we serve so that's what's on the menu fab darling thank you so just Cinder Arden was in office in New Zealand from 2017 to 2023 and she is now currently living in Boston being a fellow at Harvard.

5:05So that's quite, yeah. I'd love to be a fellow at Harvard. And she's written a book. It's called A Different Kind of Power. It's a memoir that's coming out this month. She writes beautifully. It reads like a novel, I think, a family saga. It's so beautifully written. I remember... She's really talented, writer. I remember back in the day when we were in lockdown and you'd see what New Zealand were doing and they always seemed very appreciative of what she was doing and we had bloody Boris Johnson. Yeah, she was remarkable. So I'm really excited to chat to her about... Have you been to New Zealand?

5:36Once. I've never been. Auckland. Amazing. Is it? Well, I was there for like two days. In fact, I was there for Laneway Festival, which I believe that Jacinda was a DJ at in 2014. Wow, you might have... So our paths could have crossed, but if we'd be on the same billing another year. So yeah, I love that she's a politician, prime minister, DJ, fellow, mother. Mother. Can't wait to meet her. Jacinda Ardern, coming up on Table Manners.

6:11Cura, Jacinda Ardern. Oh, Cura. Well, what a fab book. Oh, thank you. Oh, my goodness. You're my first book interview. Oh, wow. So this is, yeah, yeah. That's so beautiful. It's quite nerve-wracking. Have you written before? Oh, I've written a lot of speeches. So any major speech I used to write, so it's a form of writing. But it's like a novel. It's so beautiful. Is that uncommon for a prime minister to write their own speeches? Because I always thought that they'd have speech writers. Yeah, and I think commonly that that's the case. I think there are some politicians who have a heavy hand in their speeches.

6:53But I just found that it was quicker for the big ones because I knew what I wanted to say. I think it was quite frustrating probably for the team I worked with. But it is, there are some really big differences. You know, I realised early on when writing and going through this editing process that, you know, when you're giving a speech, you can put the pause into it. You can put the emphasis with your voice. And when I was writing on a page, I had to find other tools to do that, to stop for a moment in a place, just to try and give a sense of how something felt. But also you bring the characters alive That was the most beautiful It was like a family saga Reading a family saga And I felt that I knew everyone And felt I knew them quite well How they looked, how they felt about things Because you would have had the version without pictures as well Oh yeah, other pictures Well there will be photos eventually And I've tried to include all of those main characters But I think to If you really want to give a sense At least this is my view of what brings you into something as heavy as politics Because often people will ask you in this quizzical way Why would you choose that career?

8:05Because it is so hard I think to give a sense of what motivates you, you have to give a sense of where you've come from And I think my parents were So important to me and such great role models But that was just through the way they were not through any great singular act it was because of who they were as people can we go back to the beginning you and your parents your dad was a police policeman your mum worked in the catering at the school yes yeah she ran the canteen as we would call it and you grew up on an orchard yes a small one so let's talk about like the food what were you eating from the orchard um around the dinner table so we uh when we first moved into the orchard my grandfather had owned it before us Was that your paternal, your maternal?

8:54I forgot. Maternal. Maternal grandpa. And he was always kind of chasing the next big thing. So he planted gnashy pears. What's a gnash? Oh, they're quite famous. Yes, yes, yes, yes. What makes it, is it a good, is it a gnashy pear? How do you describe it? Is it a cross between a gnashy pear? It's like a cross between a gnashy pear. It's just a whole crunch and tangy. Delicious, because pears are a bit of a letdown sometimes. We get them sometimes, possibly in Waitrose or somewhere. It's a special. They just expire really quickly. So they're very hard to export. They're very hard to just keep in good shape, which we learned.

9:31And I think it's why they haven't really taken off. And so we would have this kind of abundance of these pears. And I just remember the smell of rotting fruit, but not in a bad way. It's a nostalgic smell to me, the smell of a cool store. You know, when I was prime minister and I'd visit, you know, a shed where they'd be packing fruit, it just took me back to the orchard. They didn't think of making something like peri, you know, like a cider from Paz. Yeah, a cider in those days. I mean, when I was growing up, wasn't, you know, those fruit ciders hadn't really made it into the market, but it would have been a perfect fruit for that.

10:12Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had the Nashies and then we had Red Delicious. We had a few Yellow Delicious. We had a lot of Granny Smiths. And so I still love, you know, apple pies with Granny Smith apples. Which is your favourite apple now? You know, I still love Granny Smiths. Do you? People really have a love-hate relationship. I love the tang of a Granny Smith. And you can cook with them as well. Yeah, yeah. Great crumble. Very cheap. Versatile. Very versatile. Yeah, it's got enough tang for a crumble. Yeah, yeah. We also had persimmons and tamarillos And I hate both of them What's a tamarillo? It looks like a tomato I think they call it a tree tomato don't they?

10:52I don't know but it looks like a tomato It's quite shiny and big And what would you get cooked? You would just You'd put them with a very tangy And a bit bitter So you'd put them with a custard or something So I would Eat them just as an excuse to fill my bowl With custard And who was around the dinner table with you? So dinners for us were a nightly It was our routine Six o 'clock we had to be there for dinner With mum, dad and my sister Louise We had a configuration though Where the TV was in the lounge Facing the dining room table My dad would sit at the head of the table So that he had line of sight for the six o 'clock news And so it was a communal experience with a news presenter in the background.

11:43Do you think that's what got you into current affairs, just having the hum of the six o 'clock news? I'm sure it was part of it. And you were kind of engaging? Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure it was part of it. I remember really observing the world. I grew up in a small town, but I do remember this awareness of everything going on around me. And I remember having discussions, you know, particularly with my dad, debates with my mum. We were in a political household But we were interested It was Aunty, is it Mari or Marie? Aunty Marie That was the big political one She was, you know She was involved in politics from the beginning Because my Nana was But my Nana passed away when I was young So really that kind of interest I think went down through my Aunty And she got me involved So you're not Prime Minister now Because she stopped And now you're A fellow.

12:37A citizen of the world. Do you think you might ever go back? No, I get asked that question all the time. Because you're so young, I think. Oh, bless you, thank you. And people think, well, I mean, you were young when you started, but you've got so much time to go back, maybe back into it. They might drive you back in. This is the thing I love about politics. It's like dog years, because everyone's usually a bit older, that you can be 45 and everyone's like, you're so young. It's like the opposite in pop music So it's the It probably isn't quite the cachet No I think in New Zealand when you choose to leave That really puts a line under it It's the other ways of leaving politics really Is you lose or you die But when you choose to go I think that means you're really exiting So the choice to go, why?

13:32You know, as I say in the book I've tried to put in all of the detail Because when I left I said exactly the reason I was going And yet it's still the question I ask the most And I think it's because that idea of just saying Well actually, I think I've run out of The energy and the gas that's required for a job like this And that means I won't do it well Is such a rare reason that people ask for more They think there must be more to it than that. But really, that was it. I think it's because you appear like such an energetic, enthusiastic person that people can't quite believe that you haven't got more there to carry on.

14:13And yet I hope that by the time people get to the end of the book, they can see, yeah, I understand. And that's because one of my goals was to share how it feels to lead. You know, I think we get a lot of a rundown of history and people will share, you know, the facts of what happened behind the scenes. But I wanted to put on the page how it feels. Because I think, you know, for lots of reasons, it's very easy to dehumanize people in public office to take away the idea that they have, you know, human emotions and lives and things going on behind the scenes. And so my book was an effort to try and remind people there are still just humans doing a job, some often imperfectly, but still people.

15:03We sat here in lockdown watching what you were doing and being like, why can't we have one like that? And were you kind of on the other side looking at what we were doing, being like, what a shit show? Yeah, I think all of us were looking at each other. You know, because genuinely there was, you know, we had an influenza, you know, pandemic plan. But as soon as we saw the way that COVID was moving, that plan was irrelevant. And so everyone, I think, was looking at everyone else. Did Boris ring you up and say, what are you doing, Jacinda? No, no. Did you ring Boris up and say, look, I want to give you a few tips?

15:42No, but I did. But I, Winnie was hospitalised. I know, it was such a shock. And he had a New Zealand nurse. Oh, yes. New Zealand nurse, you know, and that, of course, there was a lot of coverage about that, just the reality of, you know, and we all knew watching, you could see what was happening in Italy, how devastating it was for populations and not just those who were vulnerable to everyone. So we had the advantage of being a little later in COVID arriving It was the 28th of February before it arrived in New Zealand So we could see how it was moving and the impact So we made a decision because of that to try and get rid of it And see if we could live without it until vaccines arrived So that was our strategy and we figured if we couldn't do that Then we'd be no worse off than anyone else You had so few deaths Yeah, we did, we did And, you know, I'm reminded of the reality of that when I'm in the United States where I'm living now.

16:45And, you know, I meet people all the time who lost loved ones. And that's just not the common experience at home. So, you know, it's not right to say we were lucky. No one was lucky. And it was hard for everyone. It was still hard for New Zealand. But our experience was different. So you shut people out. You wouldn't let anyone in, would you? No, so we managed. We just managed. A lot of countries did this. So we managed our borders by saying, look, obviously New Zealanders needed to come and go. But when you came in, you went into a hotel for two weeks. And that's what Australia tried to do too.

17:17But it didn't really go the same way. Yeah, it was harder for the state of Victoria, Melbourne. Had some difficulties. But for the most part, yes, Australia did the same thing. Yep. Singapore, others. Yeah. Yeah, I remember my friend, like, he was in an Australian one and just like being quarantined for like, well, I mean. Yeah. Two weeks in a hotel. Yeah, two weeks in a hotel. Yeah, everything that that brings. They had house-mark suits on, I think, when they delivered the food. Yes. Yeah. And I remember during that period, because we would deliver the meals because of the circumstances and infection management, meals would be delivered in kind of takeaway bags.

17:52It wasn't a normal cutlery. We had someone who was, he wasn't quite a chef, but he worked in hospitality. He packed with him his specialty knives So that his activity for the day would be Every meal that he had in his room He would plate as if he were in a five star restaurant And I started following him on Instagram Because I just loved seeing the creativity Because of course any food packaged in takeaway containers But what he did was pure art And I don't know how this happened But he must have become aware somehow that I started following him And one day I saw him in an airport And I spotted him and completely forgot the fact that he wouldn't for a moment Have any reason to understand why I just ran at him with my arms out Yelling Sam!

18:43And we just hugged and had this wonderful chat about his experience In the middle of this hotel, in this airport And it was, yeah, he was a little bright spot Can you cook? Do you cook? Can. What do you define can you cook? I cook, yes, and I enjoy it. Yeah. I don't think I'm great, but I believe I can do it. You're doing the fine dining and putting things out beautifully. Well, your first job was in a fish and chip shop. Yeah, that's right. I mean, there's a form of fine dining in New Zealand. Done well. Do you like fish and chips? I do. I do. I'm quite nostalgic about it. What's the fish that they cook in New Zealand?

19:22So we'd have cod or place. We would have snapper and terekehi Terekehi What does that taste like? My husband's a fisherman And a real expert So he would give me all of the I feel like he's going to tell me off If I make an attempt and it's wrong So I had like a brink I don't know Someone else went fishing in your family Because your father smoked the fish It was my mother She went trout fishing And it wasn't big enough really to cook, but your dad smoked it for her. Yeah, she tried her hand at fly fishing for a while. But my husband, Clark, had a fishing show called Fish of the Day. And the whole idea was pick a particular species, go and catch it, and then have a chef prepare it.

20:14Great gig. Yeah. And is that when you fell in love with him, when you tuned in to that TV show? No. You're like, hunt together. That's my catch right there. Well, we, you know, I do remember, no, he didn't have the, she took up that show while we were seeing each other, but he was, he's a very good fisherman. So I remember really early on thinking, I have to learn a hundred different ways with fish because we just had this abundance of fish. And I, you know, so I would start writing down different recipes so that you could have fish six days in a row and not be tired of it. He can cook fish beautifully as well.

20:55Where was your first date? Did you go to a restaurant? What would I officially call our first date? Was it on a boat? Did he take you fishing? He did. I mean, I would. If I was really good at it, I'd be like, hey, let's go fishing. I mean, you want to show off, right? One of our, like, really early on, one of our more memorable dates was he had a boat. And so he took me out. Oh, wow. That's so cool. And we just went out into the Haoraki Gulf. So just outside, just, you know, on the water's edge of Auckland. It was a beautiful summer's day. And we didn't go very far. There were dolphins. Like, honestly, there were dolphins.

21:32It was like the scene in Little Mermaids. You've got to kiss the girl. Like, the frogs are kissing. Yeah, okay, got it. The dolphins were jumping over the boat. And I chucked my line out. And in I hauled this massive snapper. And he did say to me afterwards, because I think we got about, you know, I got a John Dory and a number of fish. And I remember afterwards him saying, it's not always like this. But it was fun. Do you cut them into steaks? You fillet them. So fillet them, yeah. And Clark's very good at filleting, so there's very little waste. And he asked him last Christmas, what do you want for Christmas?

22:08I want you to learn how to fillet fish. Because when he comes back, he's out there on his own, you know, filleting for hours. and I think he just wants a bit of company out there for living with him. Does your daughter like fish? She did eat it and she's going through a phase of not. How old is she? Eating it. Six. Oh, I've got a six-year-old that doesn't like eating as well. Yeah, so meat is now entirely off the menu. Mints for us. They've got really weird about saying. Spaghetti bolognese. Yeah. And I'm like... We'll only now eat the pasta. That used to eat the mints. I think, and now I'm being a fool that's zhuzhing it up so it goes less.

22:47Oh, they'll eat the spaghetti bolognese at school, but not here. So why is the one at school better than ours? Yeah, because I tried to get into the detail of what's the problem, and I got something, I thought maybe it was the texture, so I tried, I even tried like a mashed lentil, because I thought it might be the meat itself. Okay, and how did that go down, Jacinda? A bit better. Oh, okay. Because I really pulverised it. Okay. So it's a bit better, but still not a winner. You're living in Boston now, right? Yes. And is it a two year call? How long is the It was meant to be three months Oh Oh Yeah And how How long have you been there now?

23:23Going on two years Right Yeah So how long do you think you'll be there? I think we'll probably wrap up soon Yeah It's just We got there and thought Well that was a bit of an effort To get here And we arrived in September And the weather was quite nice And we thought Well why don't we stay a little bit longer And then winter came Oh yeah But then you get out of it And you forget It's like childbirth You kind of get through the winter And then you think, oh well we got through, we're okay Why don't we do it again? So what's the atmosphere politically like Over there at the minute? I'm always very aware that I'm living in Someone else's Democracy But I think there are still A lot of people coming to terms With the change because I think it's a lot It's a big change And it's much more dramatic than the first experience And so I think there's a real reckoning for people at the moment.

24:16Keeping in mind, I live in Massachusetts, which is a very different part of the country. Yeah, I think people thought, oh, it'll probably be OK, more of the same. But it doesn't, it feels quite different. It is very different. Yeah, and it's having an impact all over the world. It is. And I think, you know, coming from a place like New Zealand, you know, we've always been so attuned to other people's politics because it's always impacted us. I was a child of the 80s and that was a period where New Zealand took a stand against nuclear testing because the French were testing nuclear weapons in the Pacific.

24:52And we were sending out our frigates in protest and it caused a big rift between the New Zealand and French government. But we were taking a stand I then remember when we lost We were aware that we'd lost some of our ozone layer Because of the environmental impacts And people using certain products And the drift meant we burnt in the sun More than other people did So we've, I think, always had this awareness That the world affects us And people's actions affect us And you see it in the climate debate in New Zealand now as well maybe it's just a small country mentality I wanted to go back before, I'm going to just get the food on but I wanted to talk more about growing up in a Mormon household and the idea of food and kind of you used to have lots of food yet you used to kind of store would you explain that to the listener about how that was and how that kind of I was raised Mormon and you know I think, I don't know if this is unique to Mormon culture but But, you know, we would organize a lot around food.

25:59I mean, all events would be food-based. Alcohol-free. Alcohol-free. So you're really focused on your food in that case. But there's a practice in the Mormon Church of keeping food stores. So, you know, food supply to, you know, support your family and look after yourselves should you ever need it. And in New Zealand, that's actually just basic civil defense protocol because we are the shaky isles. We have a lot of earthquakes. We have, you know, floods It's a safe and beautiful country But we're, you know, we're trained to be prepared But it's part of Mormonism as well And so we had food stores But I don't really, you know, when I was a kid I don't remember thinking, oh, we're a bit weird because of it It was just part of, we had a, you know, a big cupboard in the shed that was always full I was only really aware that it might be unusual when my friends would see it Why have you got all that food?

26:55It's just basically baked beans and spaghetti and fruit and rice and flour But yeah, it was, I guess it was unusual And all our preserves How did you, with all these apples and all the success fruit What did you do with all that fruit? We bottled it So you bottled it? Yep, I remember, you know, doing the boiling the agar jars and lids And the big rounds of bottling We would preserve We would make apple purees Nashies we would just slice We had a few peaches as well So it meant breakfast was always accompanied by some fruit preserve But man, by the end of it, I hated nashies so much So you haven't kind of kept that tradition going Yeah I love making a good plum sauce Yeah I like making a good relish Or apple relish would you be giving?

27:51I like a good basic tomato relish And my plum sauce I like a good tart A lot of malt Malt vinegar heavy plum sauce Oh, I've never heard of that It's just a tangy I thought it was pretty standard I've never really made a plum sauce If I'm being honest Oh, it's the best To go with what? Oh, you'd put it with anything Duck is a bit fancy for me Remember when I used to put my plum sauce Yeah you'd have it with a good sausage A good sausage or on the side of a Steak Like a ketchup substitute Is it like a New Zealand thing I didn't think it was but the way you're reacting makes me think It is Zach at least is I've never heard it Is plum sauce a New Zealand thing Zach I didn't think Yeah good plum sauce In the Edmunds cookbook That's our sense Oh okay So just a quick recipe for your plum sauce.

28:54Oh, God. All right. Pop vinegar, plums. So it would go with like a cooked breakfast? Oh, yeah, you could replace, substitute your HP. Yes. What was in your batter when you were at the Golden Kiwi? Were you part of making the batter? No. So the Kovic family who ran the shop, they would make up all the batter in advance, But it wouldn't be, it would be a basic The Clovis family, were they New Zealanders born and bred? Yeah, well they'd had the store Certainly the family that I had lived in the same town as I had for decades And I can't quite remember But I believe, I'll get the origin story wrong I fear But they'd had it for decades Decades when I worked there So you're not an indigenous, you're not indigenous New Zealanders So where were all your family?

29:47I'm what they would call Pākehā. Pākehā. Pākehā, which is the Māori word for white New Zealander. Yeah. So you've been their generation. Yeah, yeah. But my family, so on my father's side, his mother's mother migrated from Scotland. Scotland. I remember that. Yeah. Because she had the Scottish lament at her funeral. Yes, on my mother's side, there's her great-grandfather was from Denmark. And then there's a lot of Irish in my family as well. Where's your name, Jacinda? Jacinda came from a book. Oh, just a baby name book. A baby name. It's such a lovely name. It's got no decent origin story. My mum and dad, my mum tells it that it was the only name that they agreed on It's a good name It's a good name, so my full name is Jacinda Kate Larell It was just meant to be Kate, but my father had the job of registering me And he thought it would be a nice surprise for my mother To put her name into my middle name How lovely Lovely for him, now my name does not fit on any government form So it's quite Yeah I've got quite the long I've never been to New Zealand Jessie's been once And she thinks Yeah she's got to come back for this I've actually only been once And it was for Laneway Festival Oh did you?

31:16Which apparently you were a DJ at Jessie was singing there Not the same year It wasn't You were 2014 I think Yes it would have been 2014 I think I was like 2013 We just missed each other I could have been dancing to your set, Jacinda In a silo, mine was in a concrete silo What was on the set list of Jacinda Arden's DJ? Well maybe I could provide it So I wouldn't consider myself to be an actual DJ My husband was an actual DJ I would call myself a tune selector So which was the tune that got everyone going? I had a little I mean granted this was over 10 years ago I mostly did What I would describe as random covers So I had like William Shatner Covering common people Oh my god I didn't even know that was a thing I had a little bit of You're an indie girl then I am an indie girl I had a cover That the Finns did of a Chris Knox song called It's Love.

32:29It was, yeah, it was a random collection, but yeah, I remember people dancing, so I think it went off okay. So we ask everyone, what would be your last supper? You're going on a desert island for six months. I love that you do the desert island as opposed to you're on death row. It's a much more cheerful way to frame it. Yeah, me too. I couldn't deal with the death row bit. So I think that I would probably, as a starter, It's a heavy starter, but I would go for some kind of variation on a cheese roll. As a starter? As a starter. So a cheese roll, I don't think that's a thing here. It's a very New Zealand thing.

33:07No. I've heard of lobster rolls, but not cheese rolls. It's not nearly as fancy. So think lobster roll with no lobster and cheese. Okay, so what sort of bread is it? It's white bread. Yeah. And this is common in the South Island. I should be really peric, make sure that I'm clear about its origin. That's where you're from. No. So I've just owned this because I love it so much. So it's a piece of white bread, crusts, crusts. Oh, actually on or off, but I think most of them actually are crust on. And it's almost like a spread. You've got a grated cheese. You've got some reduced cream. And then that's your base.

33:46There's a lot of debate about some of the little additional bits and pieces that you put in there. But just think a cheesy spread, a really cheesy. So you grate your cheese. With cream. With a reduced cream. What's a reduced cream? I don't know what that is. No, no. Is it like, it's not mayonnaise? It's in a can. No, it's not. No, because it's not sweet. It's kind of like. Is it like a coconut cream? The easiest way to describe, I think, a cheese roll, and please forgive me New Zealand if I'm doing this badly, I would think, think like a cheese and onion dip with like grated cheese into it, put down the centre of white bread, rolled up and toasted.

34:23Sounds, oh wow. It's delicious. I think we need to know how to do that. I'll pull out a recipe for you. So now we need the DJ set and the recipe for the plum sauce and the cheese roll. So would that be your starter? So you roll it up, put butter on the top and then toast it. So you eat it. When do you eat it normally? So it's probably like some people down in the south you would sell pre-made cheese rolls as fundraisers. And then you just keep them in a freezer and grill them. Just have them on hand and grill them. Does your daughter like a cheese roll? She likes grilled cheese, so she probably would like a cheese roll.

35:03Has she been Americanised? No. The way you said that. It's not peanut butter and jelly yet. No, thank God. Well, no, no. It's like she's actually, she's just very, her New Zealand identity is really strong. So we went to the dollar store the other day And she loves the dollar store And so the person behind the register said Where is your accent from? And she said, well I'm from New Zealand And they said, do you live here? And she said, well for now And she said, do you like it here? And Niamh said Well I like the dollar store God she's already a politician Yeah You could see her really thinking about it That must have been a big decision about moving because you'd disrupt her education for a while.

35:55She hadn't started school, so that made it easier. So she started in America. Yeah. And then when you go back, which part of New Zealand will you live in? We go back to Auckland. You go back and you'll live. Oh, you've got your house there still? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's home. Okay, so we've got a starter, a cheese roll. So we're going to have a cheese roll. And then I think we'll have a kingfish curry. Oh, wow. But a curry that's lemongrass, tamarind, coconut milk. It's a Peter Gordon recipe. I think you're going to like it. Oh, I've got Peter Gordon cookbook. He's so great. The Sugar Club cookbook.

36:29Oh, he's so amazing. This recipe, which I first discovered because he did it on Clark's show, has tofu in it with the kingfish. Oh, wow. And it's really beautiful. None of the things I'm saying go together in any way. These are just independently things that I like to eat. Right. The third thing, am I allowed to give two and just say what either? Oh, you can have two. Can you have a bit of both? For pure nostalgia, I would either have my mother's trifle or my nana's rice pudding. Yeah, the rice pudding was a big thing for her, wasn't it? So my nana had cooked in a coal range. And so I remember when an electric oven arrived in her house.

37:12I think my grandfather bought it for her like at Christmas or something And so this electric oven shows up and is suddenly on one wall of the kitchen And I barely remember her using it She always cooked on her coal range And so there was just something about rice pudding cooked in that coal range And she would always make me my own special rice pudding Because I didn't like steamed pudding So if ever steamed pudding was on the menu I'd get this little tin dish With my own little rice pudding in it And did she make it with whole milk? Or did she put cream in the rice pudding? The thing that I've And this is the unfortunate thing Of kind of losing her at an age Where I didn't really have those kinds of conversations Because I was young All I remember is knowing it wasn't an eggy one It never tasted eggy to me You know Why is pudding?

38:03Does it taste eggy? There's some versions that can be eggy I've never really cooked it I don't eat rice pudding enough It is such comfort food So knowing my nana Because my grandfather's staple breakfast Was porridge made with salt The porridge with salt Porridge with salt And I still cook my porridge with salt A lot of salt His was saltier than mine We do it with salt We always put a pinch of salt Jesse's husband loves porridge so much He would have it as a dessert Like rice pudding Done well My grandfather would have it with cream on top Or cinnamon and things like that And a lot of brown sugar Did you put jam in your rice pudding?

38:50No Pretty plain And drink? Do you drink now? Yes, yes When did you have your first glass of wine? Oh I would have been in my I would have been in my 20s I don't know I had a guess I was maybe 24 23, 24 Do you like it? Because you have fab wines in New Zealand Oh we do The great thing about coming to alcohol a little later in life Is that there aren't things that you In my experience anyway There aren't things that you overdid so much in your youth That you can't go near them now So I like scotch a lot. Oh, do you? Yeah, I do. So maybe, I don't know, maybe it's my Scottish. I like a good, I like a good, I like a good Islay.

39:39I like a good Highlands. Is it all single malt? Yeah. You like, not the Japanese whiskey. I actually think the Japanese whiskey's really good as well. Because you're quite, you're not far, are you? Yeah, well, I guess 12 hours, we can sort of that close. Yeah, quite close, yeah. One flight. I remember going on Air New Zealand, used to fly to LA. I'm not sure if they still do. Yes, they do. They still do. Direct routes out of Houston, San Francisco, LA and New York. Yeah, but they never did. They used to do it from London to LA. Ah, right. And it was the best. NZ1, I think it was. NZ1 was the route.

40:17That's right. And they had the most fantastic, it was Lord of the Rings for their safety to remember. Yes, video. Yeah, it was so funny. But I remember the most exquisite wines. Yes. And great food. Yes. And it was just so comfortable. Even if you were in economy, it was very comfortable. So bring it back to London. Air New Zealand do a great job. They do do a great job. They're a great airline. I always feel like, actually, it's such a strange thing, but when I step onto an Air New Zealand flight anywhere in the world, I feel like I'm home already. Yeah. It must feel very comforting for you. It's nice, yeah.

40:52And the accents. And all those laws of the Hobbits, yeah. Yeah. It was a real thing for and and i assume it still is really the air new zealand safety videos are a thing themselves you know it's they people actually would watch them on youtube because they were

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42:50I thank you so much. Oh, sorry, you're wearing white. I'm wearing white. This is East of Belfridge, who is an amazing chef. It's a tomato and turmeric, coconut. Beautiful. Cod curry with udon noodles. Really, really nice. So delicious. How good is this? Really delicious. And actually, I hate to say that I haven't made a big effort, but it was really easy to make. It's really nice. It's quick. Have you met Barack Obama? Yeah. Mm-hmm. One of the I don't know if surprising is the right word But memorable And I wrote about this But in a very brief way But one of the more memorable Bilaterals I remember having And bilaterals are such an unusual thing Having these formal meetings Where everyone is watching your conversation Like the one that Trump just did with Zelensky Which was horrendous Which is not the norm In a bilateral But sometimes they'll be over lunch or they'll be over a tea.

43:49But I remember having lunch with Chancellor Merkel and she was just extraordinary. Was she interesting? She really was. And I think the thing that really stood out to me, when you're from a small country, you're used to often transacting foreign policy in a very particular way. There's not always a lot of, it's not always conversational. But she was so interested in the world that even after being in office for well over a decade, she would ask questions and she wanted your perspective. And, you know, I just think maintaining curiosity when you're a leader is so important. I think it's a leadership trait to maintain curiosity.

44:32Isn't that interesting? You've just named another woman as well. Yeah. But I wonder if all the more liberal thinking people that have been in power and developed more liberal politics, we've now got this terrible populist backlash. And I wonder if it's, I mean, I don't know, I'm not a politician, whether it's anything to do with that. You know, I think there's so many thoughtful people and scholars and people who will put a large evidence base behind their analysis of what's happening in the world. But I think life feels really hard and is hard for a lot of people. And people are looking for solutions And ways to make their life feel easier And sometimes that means they'll reach out to You know Politics that are different to what they've had But I think the idea That in doing so To win you need to To Abandon empathy And to abandon compassion I think that Those are leadership traits that we need more of In the world not less of But I think that your leadership if you don't mind me saying and being too fangirly, but it was, it marked your leadership, that your compassion and your connection with the people that you were serving.

45:53I feel in a way that I was lucky that my road to leadership was so unexpected. I had no, there was no time, because I became leader of my party in a bit of a surprise situation, seven weeks out from the election. No one could tell me who I needed to be Or how I needed to reinvent myself Or what character traits I'd polled with voters I could only be myself And that meant that, you know The fact I wore my heart on my sleeve I just took that with me and tested, you know, in real time Whether or not that was something that voters thought was weak Or made me a lesser leader And as it turned out, it didn't people still supported still supported us You talk about the fact that you found out that you were pregnant when you'd kind of just started and My surprise pregnancy.

46:55Yeah, terrible Which isn't really meant to happen when you're in your 30s really, the old surprise pregnancy What was the name of your friend that bought you the pregnancy test? Julia Julia, yeah. Yes You know, the feeling of having to deliver speeches and having morning sickness. It was bad. Dealing with the fact that you are potentially going to become a mother and so you've just taken on this big role. It must have been... Yeah, and the thing that was really tough was having that experience but also feeling like I couldn't really talk about that experience because, you know, so few... I mean, women are multitasking all the time every day.

47:39They are doing all of the things that are expected of them with morning sickness and with many other, you know, other issues going on in their lives. And I felt like, look, I'm only the second leader in the world to have a baby while in office. That's probably, I'm pushing the boundaries out. Who's the first? Benazir Bhutto. Of course. And so I didn't feel like I could talk openly about the experiences of pregnancy in office because it was enough that I was doing it. If it ever looked like it was, you know, if I look like it was hard or if it was looking like it was affecting my job, I thought that would be a disservice to women.

48:21But then that's just it. That's the frustration. And it was the reality. Yeah, it's reality. But it's also that thing. And I think so many women, whether they are being a prime minister or not, it's that feeling of feeling like you can do it all. and you must not complain and you must appear, because it's inspiring to people, of course, but also you don't want people to be like, well, you can't do that because it's impossible, you know what I mean? You have to become superwoman. It's incredibly hard because there's lots of people in this boat. You want to show that you can do it, that you can, of course, no one should question that a woman should be able to have a leadership role and still be a mother.

49:02But in trying to prove that, you then feel like you can't actually demonstrate the realities of it, or that you are meant to look like you're superhuman. I remember not wanting to give that perception, though, because I didn't want to create this impossible standard. And I remember this woman coming up to me once and saying to me, oh, I don't know, I think I was in the supermarket. I was like, I don't know how you do it all. And my response to her was, I don't do it all. and that was a real moment for me of thinking about how do I put on display more that actually Clark, Clark is the one looking after Niamh most of the time.

49:41My mother and my mother-in-law helped me a lot. Even my colleagues while Niamh was being breastfed, they would hand her around in a meeting. I had a whole village and I started to think about how can I put that village on display so that I'm not creating an impossible standard that just no one should be expected to meet. How long maternity, how long did you have off? I took six weeks and you know physically I was older when I had Niamh so by the time I went back I was 38 so I needed the time to recover to start, I needed that time to walk upright. Oh you're making out that six weeks is like a while i had a year i i mean it's we're very very different but what you're saying rings so true with me i mean i i had the most amount of success with my music whilst also having children and i wonder whether and you'd have kind of other pop star girls being like this is really inspiring that you're doing and i'd be like they're being like this is so like kind of yeah yeah because Because you want to encourage people to see it, but you also don't want to be unrealistic.

50:58But I think the, and this was, again, it'll be different in every area, but for me it was, actually, let's not create the impossible expectation. Let's, everyone look at what we can do to make it easier for anyone else. But do you, and this is not because I believe that you should have regrets. Do you have any regrets about, because I was not leading a country, but this idea of like your career and this defining moment in your career, but also the level of responsibility and expectation happens whilst you're also discovering how to become a mother. Yeah. And you've got this little person. Yeah.

51:36Is there anything you would have done differently? It's such a good question. It's kind of an impossible question because it's so unique. I think a lot about this because it actually taught me something about being a parent and holding guilt. And I think what it taught me was that it's always there. Because if any job is going to give you not an excuse, but a reason to not feel the weight of guilt as much, it would probably be running a country. Yes, I'm missing out on this thing. But I'm doing something important. But I'm doing something important. So I knew that intellectually And yet I still felt the guilt And so actually I think I came to terms with the fact that I'll always feel it It's just there I think when they hand you a baby They give you your allocation of parental guilt And you'll just experience it at different points And different inflections But it's always there And so for me it was about Instead of thinking about the guilt Thinking about regret What will I regret missing?

52:42and how can I reduce down some of those moments? And when I looked at it like that, there were ways that I could have less regret. Yeah, but not less guilt. Yeah, I mean, you talk about kind of reaching this level of the burnout and just being like, I don't think I can lead in the same way, but did it all just get too much as well with the juggling? Yeah, and so I kept thinking of other ways to express it because I remember what I felt being really clear in my mind when I made the decision to leave that it wasn't, it was something other than burnout. Because I think, you know, burnout, rightly or wrongly, leaves this impression that you're kind of a shell of yourself and you're in the corner and you've got a fragility to you and you just can't keep going.

53:26I could keep going, but I didn't think I could do justice to the job. And I came into the role, you know, with a really strong sense of responsibility. I need to do this job because my leader's left and we need someone to run in the election. And, you know, my team is supporting me. I've got to do this job and I've got to do it to the best of my ability. And I think sometimes for some people, the reason we don't leave is that sense of responsibility that people will be letting down. But when I started to think about, well, if I'm not doing the job as well as I should, I'm letting people down too.

54:00But no one felt you weren't doing the job as well. It must have been within you. Yeah, it was within me. And I think it's because I also, So having had a volcanic eruption and a pandemic and a domestic terror attack, I knew what it took if another thing landed and something's always there waiting. And I thought, I can keep going with the status quo, but the moment that extra thing lands, have I got enough in reserves? And I knew I wasn't the only one who could do that job. I think if you lead well, you've always got people who are ready to take over. Well, this looks semi-fredo to me. I don't know.

54:42I'm not a pig person. So what is it? Oh, they're great. Well, the thing is, it's Alison Roman, who I love, but it's got whipped cream in it and Greek yoghurt, so I'm a bit worried it's a bit icy. But my mother-in-law has this amazing ice cream recipe. 600 mils of cream. You whip it. So just standard whipped cream. And then pour in a can of condensed milk Stunning And then take your favourite chocolate bar I choose a crunchy Like that, I like that And just blitz it to whatever consistency of chunk that you like in your ice cream Mix it in, freeze it, it'll be the best ice cream I don't want to say you've ever had, because it's a bold statement But it's very good How many crunches?

55:27She uses one, but I actually probably would go at least two I'd go two, and chunky nice this is icy it's still really nice it's really nice it is what it is I'm going to do that I'm going to say my friend Jacinda gave me a little recipe and that is what I'm going to do 600ml it'll be a can that big of condensed milk just your standard condensed milk oh and a teaspoon of vanilla you're leaving London soon I think What will you be looking forward to getting back to In Boston Do you mean food wise Or do you mean generally I mean obviously your child first But food wise I haven't been there for a while But it is my daughter's favourite place to go It's a little Spanish tapas Place called Dali That has been around since the 80s And it is as the name implies It's just chaotic And full of character And yeah We celebrated most birthdays there.

56:33And I think mostly because my daughter loves the ritualistic humiliation that they'll come over with tambourines and a candlestick with a frog on it, light it, and then every staff member will dance around your table. I love that. Yeah, and my daughter just loves it. Jacinda Arden, it's been such an honour to meet you. So nice to talk with you. Wonderful. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I'm fitting this in. No, I loved it. Thank you for being my first discussion about the book. Good luck. I'm sure it will. Honestly, it's such a beautiful book. Thank you. And it's a family saga, I think, in your life.

57:11Yeah. But you've got to write a novel. Maybe you can be in the new succession writer's room or something. You have got a novel in. Oh, do you know what? I just finished The Beasting and thought, how do people write like that? It's so beautiful. That was unbelievable. It's so beautiful. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, mine is very different to that. No, but you write beautifully. You bring characters alive. Thank you. And that's the important thing. They felt real. It took me well over a year because I had to learn how to write. So, yeah. So thank you for that. Well, you write beautifully. You definitely should write more.

58:00Jacinda Arden, what a guest. Such a brilliant woman. So inspiring, so interesting. Shared it all. It was really glorious to have her. And I have to say, that recipe, Easter. God, Jacinda. You are amazing. How do you spell her name? I-X-T-A. Oh, I thought it was... She used to work with Otolenghi in the test kitchens. I'm definitely buying that. But it looked easy. It was quite easy. However, Easter makes it easy. It's just like you make the sambal, which she says you should have just in your fridge for any curries. Because you could do that with something else. You could do it with tofu, couldn't you?

58:39Or vegetables. I thought that would be right on your list. No, I was thinking for Jill and Johnny, if I ever have them. Or, she says, with rice. You could put that into rice. Delicious. She's amazing. You're amazing, Easter. And then the Alison Roman, Semi Fredo. I probably should have brought it out when you told me to. because it was a little bit hard. However, light and tasty. It tasted good for you. Yeah, because it only has honey in and a bit of Greek yoghurt and some whipped cream and fresh berries. Yeah, you can give that to the children. Yeah, they'll have that. It's on their five a day for Semi-Fredo.

59:11Thank you, Jacinda, for coming on. A different kind of power is out now and I can't wait to join you at Laneway sometime in the future. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week.

59:43We'll see you next time.

1:00:03We'll be right back.

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