Jack Rooke

0:03Lennie Ware: Hello and welcome to Tobermaners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with Lennie and it's a windy spring day. Are we still in spring?

0:11Jessie Ware: It should be summer by May but absolutely it's not summer. I nearly have the heating on. I had it full glassed all over.

0:18Lennie Ware: It's blowing a hoolie out there. I know and that's a cold wind. We're doing a breakfast episode today. So someone's coming over for breakfast. It's Jack Rooke who I absolutely love. he created one of the best TV shows on Channel 4 brilliant British I don't know, would you call it comedy? It is comedy but it's also completely touching and beautiful called Big Boys had three seasons, I adored them all but started in the Edinburgh Fringe with winning I think lots of accolades for his stand-up called Good Grief which has its 10 year anniversary this year and that's why he's going back to Edinburgh to do it How old is he?

0:59Lennie Ware: He's one of them ones. That started young. He's a bit Lena Dunham-y, do you know what I mean? Very clever and successful at a young age. Has he reached 30 yet? Yeah, I think maybe he is 30 or something. He's just very good. And he's coming over to talk about good grief, coming back. And I hope big boys. No, big boys is wrapped up, Mum, if you haven't. I know, but he won't talk about that. He says he's done with pretending he's at uni now. So he's not a big boy anymore. He's a big, big boy now. He's a big boy, yeah. So we have Jack Rook coming on to talk about, yeah, stand-up, good grief, big boys, all of it.

1:35I love seeing Jack and I can't wait to chat to him.

1:39Jessie Ware: And I've been on food duty. Let me get the cookbooks.

1:42Lennie Ware: So Itamar and Sarit, who I love, they are Honey & Co. They are just the most beautiful couple, but also amazing, amazing chefs. They've got a new cookbook called Honey & Co Daily. and they've got eggs the daily way which is just kind of you know we're doing breakfast so why not there's peas with basil spring onions garlic and a bit of aleppo chili and then you just do it on toast i didn't make my sourdough because i haven't done my starter i know i'm sorry you're slipping i know did you buy it i did and i got nice m &s bread okay it's good yeah and then you just have fried egg but you put and you kind of coat the uh toast with some goat's cheese so there's like how

2:23Jessie Ware: would you how would you describe the crust is it a veneer removal crust this one yeah yeah okay yeah

2:28Lennie Ware: absolutely and then we've done um I say we because Rosie my sweet Rosie has helped me with the customer so another amazing chef Helen Graham um has this new book not related to James is she she's not but she did go to university with your son oh wow and she was the head chef at Bubbala that amazing vegetarian restaurant, and centerpiece is her cookbook, and it's really beautiful, and it really complements Sari and Itama's food. And I've done hot apricots and cold saffron custard.

3:02Jessie Ware: Ooh.

3:03Lennie Ware: But Rosie, sweet Rosie, made the custard yesterday. I tasted it this morning, and it was a bit grainy, so we did a new one, and now the next one is a bit runny. So I don't know. You can have grainy and more firm, or you can have runny and not great. I think it'll taste delicious. Anyway, and so, yeah, you fry the apicots in some maple syrup and olive oil and some sea salt flakes. So it's really, and the custard is amazing. I know you're not mad about saffron, are you?

3:29Jessie Ware: No.

3:30Lennie Ware: Sorry.

3:31Jessie Ware: I love the colour.

3:32Lennie Ware: It tastes so beautiful.

3:34Jessie Ware: It's just slightly, no, I think, I mean, I have had a little taste and it tasted delicious.

3:39Lennie Ware: So yeah, it's nice. Two cookbooks from two brilliant chefs and it's just nice to have new ideas. Yeah.

3:46Jessie Ware: So yeah, Jack Brooke coming up on Table Miners.

3:56Jack. Do I look human?

3:58Lennie Ware: What do you mean? You look amazing. Okay, great. But the voice is hoarse. The voice is hoarse. Why is the voice hoarse? I just spoke to absolutely everyone on Sunday night. You were a chatter. So I was chatting. I met Martin Lewis when he said he was... Oh my God, his speech was so beautiful. Oh, his speech was so nice. And quite like, I mean, did you talk about... Yeah, we spoke about his speech. And he was like, we really love big boys. And it was so nice. Everyone loves big boys. It's very, very sweet. Can we just say, firstly, congratulations. You won a BAFTA. Thank you so much. A BAFTA craft.

4:31Lennie Ware: A BAFTA craft awards. A BAFTA for comedy writer. Yeah. For big boys. For big boys. Which you know I love. Well, thank you, darling. And mum said, well, I can't wait for the next season. I was like, no, this shit's wrapped up. No, it's done. Yeah, it's done. But in a really lovely way. We got to end it how we wanted to end it.

4:46Jessie Ware: You could do Old Boys next. Oh, I'd love to do Old Boys. Do you know what I'd really like to do next? What? Big Girls. Oh. Yeah.

4:55Lennie Ware: That's a good one. Yeah, Big Girls. I'm working on it. Are you? Yeah. It's a brand. It's a brand. So congratulations on your BAFTA, but you were also at the BAFTAs, the tele BAFTAs on Sunday. It's now Tuesday when we're recording this, by the way. And you have apparently just left your party. We've just, so I haven't just left the party. We left the party at about 6, 7am on Monday morning. The whole roof of the sea containers, the whole rooftop bar. So you have the BAFTAs, the ceremony is so long, everybody is sick of it. That's the Royal Festival Hall. At the Royal Festival Hall. Then you have a dinner, you kind of get through that because no one's eaten in about four or five hours.

5:32Then you have a party sort of on like the concourse of the South Bank. And it was amazing. And everyone's there. and then everyone goes at 2am to the C Containers Hotel where the rooftop is from 2 till 6.

5:45Jessie Ware: When you say everyone. I mean genuinely everyone. Who was partying till 6am? Was the older ones there? Yeah. Oh interesting. It was a really lovely, I felt like this year was one of the loveliest BAFTAs I've been to. It really felt like everyone there just wanted to sort of celebrate and I think it's like, it's been quite tough for the TV and film industry. I think like. Why? I think there's been a lot of stuff that hasn't been able to get, you know, cross the line. It's been tricky for a lot of workforce. I mean, a lot of people are sort of struggling with like sort of unemployment. Like there's definitely been a decline.

6:20I think post-COVID, there was a boom of making loads of film and TV. And then it's been a bit of a tricky one. So if you're managing to make work and then you're managing to be nominated for a BAFTA and then you're managing to win them, you want to have a bit of a booze up. You know what I mean?

6:34Jessie Ware: Yeah, I suppose you do.

6:34Lennie Ware: So what were you drinking and who were you dancing with? I was drinking, because I'm very classy, a lot of Negronis, which is my favourite drink. Is it? Why? Because I sort of think, I'm not a big drinker, but if I'm going to drink, I want it to taste like booze. Yeah. I want it to hit the back of my throat.

6:53Jessie Ware: So what's the main spirit in a Negroni? Vamut. Gin. Is it gin? Campari. Campari. It's a shit mix. It's a real. It's quite bitter. It can be quite bitter. And then sometimes you can get different deviations. you can get a white Negroni where they replace something maybe it's blank I don't know, I don't want to sound like a mixologist Do they put soda in to make it long? No

7:18Lennie Ware: Spagliato What's Spagliato? You don't know about memes really do you? It's not a meme is it?

7:24Jessie Ware: No I don't know

7:27Lennie Ware: It's like, who was it? It's Olivia Cook and Emma Darcy from House of Dragon and she goes Negroni, Spagliato with a bit of Prosecco in it or something like that. Do you put Prosecco in it sometimes? Yeah, but I think that's the one that fucked me up the other day and I had the worst hangover on. Yeah, I have got a slight hangover still. I hope you don't mind. That was never what I ever wanted to bring to table manners. You look clean. Thank you. You look happy. No, you look sparkly. Okay, brilliant. Yes, bright-eyed.

7:57Jessie Ware: So who was the most interesting person you spoke to? Hmm. Do you know what? When you get nominated for BAFTAs, you sort of do like a week of events before. So this is why I'm exhausted. We did like a big Vogue party on Wednesday. Of course. Who dressed you, darling? There's a downhill dinner. I actually dressed myself. You are good at dressing yourself. Yeah, I think because as a bigger person, it's quite difficult to get a stylist who's going to find brands that... You know what suits you. I wore an Adidas collaboration Balenciaga blazer. So we're talking about a black oversized, but with the Adidas three stripes down the side.

8:36It was very Mel C. Funny. Yeah. But I met Celia Imri.

8:41Lennie Ware: Oh. Did she fart? She's lovely. I wish she'd farted. No, she did not fart. Poor woman. She just, she was. Yeah, I know. I felt so sorry.

8:51Jessie Ware: I felt so sorry. I know.

8:52Lennie Ware: This woman. This woman in green. I'm like, she's an icon. Oh my God. She's a national treasure. Yeah. She's a fantastic actress. He'll probably cast her in the new studio. She should be in the studio. Yeah, if he's lucky to get the Imri. She's been in an incredible American stuff as well. She's in a show called Better Things. My favourite show. Okay, so.

9:13Jessie Ware: There's a new season. Look, Better Things is a hugely, when I first started writing Big Boys, I was watching Better Things. And I think the way that they play out, relationships, and those moments in which, and maybe particularly, I sort of feel like I come from more of a matriarchal family than anything. Like I've got a lot of aunties, a lot of female cousins, nieces. my mum's a big presence.

9:34Lennie Ware: I also feel like you really celebrate that in Big Boys, by the way. Like that beauty of like your mum. It's like, it's a beautiful, beautiful. I think that's why I want to write Big Girls. I prefer writing women in a weird way. Do you? Even though, I know. And your cousin. The show's called Big Boys, Cousin Shannon. Because she had such a great, like the arc. Yeah. It was beautiful. Well, thank you. Sharon. I think, I mean, yeah. I think better things in particular.

10:01Jessie Ware: Okay, so did you dance with Celia Imrie? Dance with Celia Imrie Then met Celia Imrie the next day At this Dunhill dinner She was still raging And we were still talking about better things She lists just up the road from us Can I confess something? So I've done something really bad And you should tell me off for this I smoked my first ever cigarette in February

10:23Lennie Ware: And now are you addicted? I smoked my final cigarette with Celia Imrie On Thursday And we both went we should quit And I haven't smoked since I mean I mean it was only you're not allowed but I think no I think I think start late have a little dabble it was just to get me through the baptist season you sound like maybe you could be prone to asthma I am so I think maybe avoid cough we're going to we're going to avoid cigarettes now but me and Celia had a cigarette in May film this is the most name droppy show busy lovey stuff but she was really really lovely and to speak to her about better things and to speak to her I suppose about being an actor and better things What I really love, I mean, there's an episode with her that I think is called Phyllis in a car park.

11:06Do you remember the scene in a car park? What happened in a car park? And there's this, like, she gets lost and she can't find her car.

11:10Jessie Ware: Oh, yeah, because she's kind of losing her mind. She's losing it. And then there's a beautiful funeral episode. I just think, on the whole, to have somebody like her in an American show, to me, I'm like, that's a very classy casting.

11:22Lennie Ware: Yeah. I think Pamela Adlon is a very classy writer, maker. Do you feel like Seth Rogen really didn't know who she was? Yeah. Well, then he's not watching enough telly. He's not watching enough TV, actually. Seth Rogen. Yeah. Watch some more telly. Yeah, some really good comedy, Seth. But, I mean, she was so lovely. And I also found out that she doesn't fly. She's got that condition where you're not really supposed to be on a plane. Oh. That kind of leg.

11:47Jessie Ware: So how does she get to LA? She gets the Queen Mary to New York. Yeah. She entertains everyone for a week. Basically, like, she introduces screening. She kind of hosts and compares. then she gets a series of cars and trains across to Los Angeles. I thought that dedication to being like, I want to be in better things. Her stage in her career, I was like, yeah. Celia Emery was hands down the best person I've met.

12:13Lennie Ware: Okay, brilliant. I just want to take a moment to acknowledge your brilliant speech. Oh, thank you. Because you got it all out. I know, and it was completely... You were amazing. Well, thank you so much. And for anybody that didn't listen to it, you were talking about cuts to Edinburgh. Yeah. And also state schools about how, can you explain better than I'm going to? Yeah, I mean, I won like maybe last Sunday and I wasn't really expecting to because I'd won the year before. And the kind of thing in America, people win, you know, 17 of the same awards for each season they do. But in the UK, that doesn't really happen.

12:52Jessie Ware: Except for your adolescence, darling. Oh, God, yeah.

12:54Lennie Ware: Did he have a cigarette with you? He probably is due one now, right? Maybe. But that adolescence is a limited series, so they can only win once for that one series. Whereas we won on series two. So when it was coming to series three, I was like, I'm coming merely as a sort of ceremonial piece of the furniture at this point. So then to win again, I hadn't prepared a speech. I didn't know what I was saying. Wow. I had no clue. Maybe you brought out stats like that. And yeah, it certainly just came out of me. And it's because I've been doing, i've set up this commission with the roundhouse which is an amazing like art where you've performed at the roundhouse before like art center meets music venue underneath the main stage there's all these like creative hubs for young people to go and explore creativity to go and start learning how to dj or rehearsal rooms or start up a radio station blah blah and i've been involved with them since i was a kid and we've set up a commission to try to lobby the government to look into better ways for young people to access the arts so I'd sat on this zoom for this commission and you're hearing people from all over the country who are trying to advocate for better arts accessibility and all these stats were just sort of in my head from from a week of just being sat there and then and then when I won I was like oh my god you know all I can really do in this moment is say this tv show wouldn't exist without the arts without fringe theaters without comedy clubs without arts bursaries.

14:17And all the stuff that I benefited from when I started, there was a thing called Ideas Tap, which was a resource for young people where you could apply for little grants of money. Big Boys was funded by something called the BFI Young Audiences Content Fund.

14:30Lennie Ware: Does that not exist now? Doesn't exist. None of it exists. In fact, the week Big Boys Series 1 came out, they pulled that stream of funding. And so I feel like I've been really lucky, but every time I've got my foot in the door, something's been pulled up. and I do think it's particularly bad and that Edinburgh stat is real there was a fund to help new artists go to the Edinburgh fringe it's been cut by 93 and I'm worried that in state schools particularly it's not even that drama and music is being cut off the syllabus which it is in some places but it's being discouraged and I think if you have that disparity between what people are getting in the private education sector and what kids are you know fostering there like we've got to also make sure that we are giving arts and drama and musical opportunities to people who aren't from those sort of backgrounds so it all just came out of me it was fantastic they'll be

15:21Jessie Ware: asking you to be the next leader of the Labour Party soon I'd advise it's an opening for a good orator congratulations well thank you so much and it was yeah it was lovely um well let's bring it

15:34Lennie Ware: back to your childhood yes and who was around the dinner table and what was a very memorable dish I really have to say that I was really thinking about this because my mum's an excellent cook and me and my brothers are not. Well, actually, my eldest brother is pretty good. How many are there of you? There's three. I'm one of three. And they're always so annoyed because in Big Boys, I present my character as an only child.

16:00Jessie Ware: Well, actually, I thought you were until I read that you weren't. I know, yeah. But I think I was born on my eldest brother's 21st birthday. Oh, so you are almost like an only child. I was raised as a kid quite solo which is why I'm a bit of a spoiled brat but I would really have to say that the dish that I remember the most is my dad coming in drunk from the pub and making rounds upon rounds of cheese on toast under the grill with loads of Liam Perrin sauce and loads of black pepper and like thick cheese and then going into the living room and watching like the Catherine Tate show or Michael McIntyre or Mock the Week or Have I Got News For You Like, I can really remember watching comedy with him with slabs of bread and cheese.

16:44Lennie Ware: Sounds great. Yeah, just the best. How old were you when he passed away? I had just turned 15. Oh, that's too young. Yeah, it was too young. How old was he, though? He was 55.

16:55Jessie Ware: So he was very young. Very young, yeah. And it was quite unexpected. He was ill, and then we didn't really know what was wrong with him, and then he was diagnosed with cancer, and he died 10 days later. Shit. It was that rough. even ready no none of us were ready none of us had really spoken about what to do or what the plans were and I think that's something that I always you know try and speak about grief quite a lot because we never got a really a chance beforehand to to sort of access the scale of it even just the admin involved in it but I think you know it's sort of what's like inspired all of my work up until maybe like Sunday you know I don't think I'm going to write about grief again I was thinking about this on Sunday night we're obviously like all quite drunk and we're all at the BAFTAs and I've got the whole team the whole big boys gang all the cast the crew and I was like this is it this is the last thing we've had in the calendar and we started that project in 2017 and I oddly sort of feel like the last sort of day I've had just in the hotel in bed eating room service and I've just been like quite relieved it's over because I feel like that's such a full creative experience that's lived, that's been a struggle that we've managed to fight for, that we've got and then it's won a BAFTA and now it's done.

18:15And I'm like, that's such a lovely arc for it. But I sort of, yeah, I don't think I'm going to, apart from this tour that I'm about to do where I talk about grief all the time. So yeah, I need to actually still get my head in the game a little bit.

18:28Jessie Ware: I might take this off because I'm sweating quite a bit. I'm cold. Are you cold?

18:32Lennie Ware: Yeah, but I don't know what's wrong with me. let's talk about good grief because this is kind of where you got your big break right 10 years ago yeah i did the very first showing in the roundhouse's young people's like theater space november 2014 and like that has carried me all the way through there are stories and lines from that show that are in the final series of big boys and i'm so proud of that because that show it isn't you know and I never say this to put down anyone else's work but it's not fleabag or baby reindeer it was never produced with like a team that was not it's not a proper play by any stretch it is a sort of quite cut and paste a bit punk at times me cobbling together stories and little films because I studied sort of documentary making so I filmed all of these things with my nan who you both loved my nan Scysth who was a dinner lady and uh she and me would speak quite a lot about grief because I think it happened like you said like I was too young I was talking about losing a parent and my nan was 80 and talking about losing a child and that was just not the way it should be but we really found solace in sort of slacking everyone off for how awkward and weird they would be with us after he died.

19:54And those sort of things where people kind of put their foot in it or they just don't want to talk about it and pretend like it doesn't exist.

20:01Lennie Ware: What was kind of the worst thing that somebody said? I can remember, like, I think people used to say to my nan quite a lot, like, oh, you should have gone first. Things like that where they're just speaking.

20:16Jessie Ware: Often a parent would say that. Yeah, but you don't want somebody else to say that. I don't want someone else to say it. No. But, you know, I think people... Sometimes I remember one of my dad's friends sort of crossing the street to avoid me because he didn't know what to say. And this is it. This is why I wanted to write the show. Do you think that's something very British that people don't know what to say? I think it's something very British. I think it's something that we have got better at actually since I first started doing that show. I do think we've had a much bigger, broader mental health conversation in the last 10 years.

20:50I think people are slightly more empathetic. But it was really difficult at the time. And mine and my nan's way of dealing with it was humour, was laughing. And I think if you can make something funny, you can take the sting out of it. It doesn't mean it's not painful, but you can take the shock maybe. It suddenly becomes something processable.

21:10Jessie Ware: Was your dad funny? Yeah, really funny. Yeah. Really funny. He was a black cab driver. Oh, God, he'd have a lot to say. He'd have a lot to say. Everything. Everything, I know. Yeah. politics a lot do you know my dad was sort of like really like politically um not loyal to anyone i think voted every party at every point at every different stage which i've sort of quite liked i oddly you know some people they come from i'm a labor family or we're a conservative family i very much feel like my family are like who's there what are they offering what's the current thing and then they kind of go by that um which i find really interesting and i mean he yeah he would have a lot to say but he was really good i think i think he knew i was gay i think he knew he had a little no no i was too young i think he knew he had a little weirdo on his hand so he'd often yeah he'd often take me into london in the cab when i'd drive in with him or anywhere well no he took me to like camden market he'd take me to like colorful characters he'd take me to you know he had friends who like lived in highgate in quite nice houses and then friends who lived in hillingdon in tower blocks like he would i got to sort of experience a lot of different types of london a lot of different classes a lot of different places and i think that equipped me to sort of i don't know understand lots of different people's experiences um so i think he i don't know i think he really like i think he would love what i've ended up doing because i think he's sort of also and i remembered this the other day my dad because he was a black cab driver you know and he would run around people like harry enfield or he once had tara palmer tomkinson remember her yeah she she she got in his cab and she was wearing a beaded top and then she shut the door she like clipped the and my dad was like i've been cleaning up tara palmer thomkinson's beads for the last 45 minutes um but he would often get like comedy producers and he would say to them and i did not know this i think my son should write a comedy he's really funny because we used to watch sitcoms religiously like i never was uh we never really went to the theater march i don't think i ever went to art galleries or anything like that these are all things I found in my independent later life but sitcoms were the thing and so there's cards at home my favorite the Vicar of Dibley hands down oh really I loved on French it's such a brilliant performance but all of them Emma Chambers is and I loved Ab Fab too I thought

23:46Lennie Ware: Ab Fab was great but there's a kind of gentleness with Vicar of Dibley isn't there that maybe like spoke to you i think there's a oddly that show if you really take it it's about the acceptance of outsiders it's about an insular community having a a woman vicar at a time where that would have felt so radical and all of them being slight oddballs in and of themselves that i love i love any show that is driven by people choosing someone who isn't like them where we have the ability to ago you know what you're not like me and we see things differently but I still have compassion for you and I want to be around you and I might learn from you that to me is at the crux of big boys with with Jack and Danny and that whole group yeah but it's so totally inspired by the Vicar Dibli I think I would like to just go back to your grandma and you was your grandma part of the rating of the lasagna yes okay can we talk about that yes we can have you talked about it too much no no not at all and i love talking about it so she wasn't like the nan in catherine tate no that's more like my mom um no my nan was slightly more i don't know she was just really funny very dry at times you wouldn't expect expect her to be as funny my granddad was sort of quite like played by the rules kind of guy whereas my nan was not she was always naughty always cheeky always slipping me a little bit of food when she should and always like encouraging like a little streak of imagination but yeah she she um well no she would have been involved in a lot of the so so and you know what it's interesting because I really think my whole career came from a poem I wrote about lasagnas I wrote a funny comedy poem when I was 18 about people keep on coming to the door to drop lasagnas off after my dad had died and sometimes they would just drop it off on the doorstep and run back into their car as if it was like an unwanted like like an orphan that we were given and we had so many lasagnas just everywhere we were kind of just going around with the fork going try a bit too much bechamel so you were rating them we were rating them we made a grid on the fridge and we were like tracy brooks from park avenue she's the best she's still the best she makes the best apple cakes why was it so good hers i think was good because it had a kick to it oh you know you know sometimes with a lasagna i think i don't know i don't think i had the language at the time, I couldn't tell you, but it was just, it felt...

26:15You know you were speaking about this with Lisa Kudrow about how KFC is good, but not because really the chicken, it's because of all the herbs and spices. Oh, it's great, isn't it? A lasagna with herbs and spices, that really done well.

26:26Jessie Ware: You had to liven it up.

26:28Lennie Ware: Liven it up, it had a kick.

26:29Jessie Ware: Oh, okay. But, yeah, and then some of them were really awful and really watery and you're like, well, my dad's just died and you've given me a shit lasagna. I'm sure they didn't intend to. No, of course not. But it's funny when someone dies, people won't use the word they've died. They have to use like pass or passed on or passed. Why can't they just say they've died? It's a very British thing. We have over 200 euphemisms in the English language for death. Okay. Things like shuffle off this mortal coil. Things like brown bread. We cannot say it. And for so long, I remember that was a huge part of the first few performances I did of Good Grief.

27:09were like talking about how we just can't say dead and I'd be like he's dead to me that felt comforting me too that felt like concrete transparent the truth yeah and when people sort of dalliance around it you can't equip yourself with any autonomy when you're pretending like someone isn't here anymore it's like no let's own it there was another thing I remember writing when I was a kid about like the dinner table and about there being like an empty plate and I think we definitely had that for the first few years after it would be like who's gonna sit in that chair that was dad's chair that's just not sitting at all and let's acknowledge it and now i think my brother just sits in it and doesn't think twice which is kind of the beauty of grief is that you know the pain gets less and you forget and the new people come in and now there's like nieces and nephews and you know you fill the tape you fill the gap with new people how old would he be now oh god i think he would be like 73 so very young still very young still i know very young

28:08Lennie Ware: yeah how old are you darling 74 i wouldn't have thought you were a day past 56 not at all any thank you should i make some food yeah whilst you chat about last supper you've not had room service this morning have you no i haven't i've eaten nothing this morning okay good i've eaten nothing this morning the room service at the hotel i was staying at though i had a lovely little kind of i had a little meze of different bits and some lovely wilted kale some some um really nice buttermilk chicken tenders because i know you're a fried chicken girl i love a good

28:41Jessie Ware: chicken tender but i never eat it because i feel too guilty to eat fried chicken well do you know what i think you need to do you go to new york much we were there last april oh really where's your favorite there's really i feel like all throughout i was staying in dumbo last time i I was there over Christmas. Where is Dumbo? Dumbo is like South Brooklyn. You can get the ferry there. I went to this amazing Italian place where they did chicken fingers.

29:11Lennie Ware: What was it called? Do you know what? It's opposite a more famous Italian place. Frankie's or something. It's opposite a place called Giulietta's, but it's not Giulietta's, which is the famous one with the queue outside. It's the one without the queue outside.

29:23Jessie Ware: So they did like little chicken... Chicken tenders. you get them in a bowl and then you can dip them in a ranch dressing, a barbecue. You can just pick whatever dressings you want. Were they seasoned well? They were seasoned supremely well. Would you have fried chicken on your last meal? Tell me what your last supper would be. Oh, my last supper. Okay, I was thinking about this. I really, I quite like the most simplest starters possible. I think when you're starting out on a meal, you want to go simplicity is king. Okay. I would maybe go prosciutto melon. Lovely. Palm hawa melon. Lovely. Or just some really well done chicken yakitori skewers.

30:04Oh, lovely. Something very plain, not too adventurous. You just start with something that satiates your hunger but is nice.

30:10Jessie Ware: And just tittles your taste buds, yeah. Yes. Now, probably wouldn't go with that as a starter, but my main is always going to have to be Christmas dinner. If it was my last supper. Would it be? A what? Christmas dinner. Okay, yeah. I think Christmas dinner's great. It's just the best meal. Turkey. Stuffing. Stuffing's my favourite food. You know, lovely Andy Oliver. Yeah. She does a podcast where you pick one dish for Radio 4. I did it maybe like four or five years ago. And I chose stuffing. And she explained to me the history of stuffing. How it was, you know, used for all the scraps and leftovers.

30:46And stuffing to me is...

30:47Jessie Ware: Delicious. God-team. Do you have a special stuffing that you like? Do you know what my mum... Just sage and onion. I sort of like it all, but my mum does go. So my mum will do the main shop at Sainsbury's or Tesco, sometimes Moriton's Asda. We've got a big Asda in Watford on the roundabout. You're very lucky. Thank you. I love Asda. I love an Asda. Me too. But then she'll go to M &S Waitrose for the bits. So we might have a posher stuffing than we do anything else. Okay. And I do believe that Marks and Spencer's comes up with the best stuffing around Christmas time. I do one with apricots and walnut.

31:24Jessie Ware: Or I do cranberry. A fruity stuffing is great. A fruity stuffing. But I quite like having a few different types of stuffing. I also, when I first moved, I lived with my mum during COVID. And then 2021, I moved back to London and I lived with two Americans. So I became a, I never celebrated Thanksgiving before. And I think Thanksgiving is brilliant. It is brilliant. Cheese grits, the sweet potatoes, sort of marshmallow stuff on top. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The collard grits, like everything. about Thanksgiving, I would actually quite like to do a sort of hybrid English Christmas dinner, American Thanksgiving dinner kind of fused together.

32:00Jessie Ware: Yeah, there'd be a lot of cranberry going on. There'd be a lot of cranberry going on, but that's never a bad thing for me.

32:05Lennie Ware: Never a bad thing. And a very good thing in case anyone has a urinary tract infection.

32:11Jessie Ware: Do you buy extra pigs in blankets? Yes, of course. You've got to have as many... And I'm really bad. You've got to eat them all before you even sit down. You tell me off because I sneak into the kitchen before everything's been served up and I'm always like... Me too. They're my favourite thing. They're the best thing in the world. They're so salty and delicious. Especially if you cook them just right. If you hit that sweet spot where everything is the saltiest it can be, the dream.

32:40Lennie Ware: How do you like your eggs? Oh, my... However you want to give them to me is the honest truth. No, you just hesitate. Do you like them turned? I like them turned, yeah. Fine. I don't even know what we're having by the way this is so exciting now I know eggs are involved I'm really shocked this looks up my street in a big way my favourite meal if it wasn't a Christmas dinner full English breakfast there's something about ceremonial meals and the comfort and the reliability when you know what you're getting that I really enjoy

33:16Jessie Ware: Yeah.

33:27Lennie Ware: So this is Honey & Co. from their new Honey & Co. Daily cookbook. Yeah, they're so good. It's fried eggs with goat's cheese and peas done with Aleppo chilli, garlic, spring onions and basil. That is right up my street. You know, there's a restaurant, there's a cafe in Haggerston called Towpath. Shout out to Claire Cole, who's one of the chefs there. Oh, I love Claire. Claire's one of the best. And every time I eat there, I'm like, this is top tier stuff. This is amazing. Should we now tell everyone where we really first met? Are we talking about the university? Yeah. Oh my God. I feel like people don't know this story and it's really good.

34:13When I was at university, I had a job. I was working at the Students' Union reception, doing, like, little admin tasks, often mostly giving people their NUS extra card so they can get a discount in Topshop, or giving them condoms so that they wouldn't accidentally get each other pregnant. Which university was it? University of Westminster. University of Westminster Students' Union, shout out. And at one point, we were booking our freshers' ball, and somehow we got Jessie's number. How the fuck did you get my number? I don't know how. And I feel like I can't even really remember if you were on a conference call and we were all speaking to you.

34:51I know there was a girl called Jenny, but we were basically like, we were like kids as well. So we were like, yeah, we'd love you to come and do this freshest ball thing. It's going to be really, really fun. Just play a couple of tracks. We give you 10 grand. And I can't remember.

35:07Lennie Ware: I obviously didn't do it. I don't think anyone from your team was interested in you doing it because at the time, we were punching above our weight. We were punching above our weight. I mean, I just love that someone gave you my number. You had a song at the time which got renamed. It was called 110%. Yeah. And it got renamed to... Oh, my God. God, you know everything. It was just one of my favourite songs ever. I would actually say no that's not my favourite of your songs but it's out there for me because that would be a bit depressing because that was on my first record it was really really yeah but that's well that wouldn't be depressing because your first record was brilliant thank you Dom I would say Begin Again is my favourite okay great but yeah we got Miss Dynamite instead oh well great booking great booking and actually probably got the party started more than I did she really did get the party started but you know anyway if I ever work there again there's 10 grand with your name on it Did we finish your last supper?

36:06No. No.

36:08Jessie Ware: We've got starters in Maine, Christmas dinner. Is there any room for pudding? My favourite pudding, which I do think would go well after a Christmas dinner, is a really good chocolate mousse. Very plain, very simple. No trills or frills, nothing else, just. And I mean, I am that psych cliche of went to Paris once, went to Chez Genoux, had the chocolate. and now I can't stop thinking about it. I ultimately, underneath it all, have all the culinary integrity of a TikTok influencer. Truly, I'm just like, that is good. And I know why people take a photo of it all the time. In fact, the last time...

36:51Jessie Ware: Culinary integrity, I've never heard that expression. The last time I went to Chez Genoux, they just brought us the whole pot. They just brought us the whole... Because they were like, we've only got about two or three portions left and there was a table of five of us. brought the whole thing. We all just sat there with spoons. Oh my God, amazing. Going round.

37:07Lennie Ware: Do you spend a lot of time in Paris? Yes. Why not? Do you have a lover there? I really love Paris. Hello, you never tell us. No, no. I really like Paris to write in because the Eurostar is cheap. If you book it in advance, it's quite cheap. There's a lovely little artist's residency hotel where I go, I get quite a cheap rate to go. Where's that? It's just by the, oh my God, got to keep, Montparnasse.

37:33Jessie Ware: Okay. By the big tower near the Jardin du Luxembourg. Okay. And I love writing there because I'm away from London, I'm away from distractions and because in Paris they're a bit snobby so they won't just let you get your laptop out anywhere. Right. You have to go to quite specific places to go and write and there's a cafe on a barge in the north of Paris. It's called Water and Dreams. And it's like a barge meets library meets cafe meets co-working space. And you can just sit there on the water and write all day. I have to say it's one of my pet hates when you go in a cafe and people are sitting with one coffee and their laptops.

38:13Jessie Ware: And you can't even sit down. Well, I'm not going to mention the cafe they do it. But I just glare at them. And they're all plugged in. And they've got earphones on. Yeah, but a normal cafe or a restaurant. Maybe you should live in Paris, Mum. Yeah, you should live in Paris because they will not let you get your... I agree with them. Yeah. Just go home. I mean, I wonder...

38:35Lennie Ware: I was really enjoying his romantic story about writing by the scent. Yeah, but I wondered if people did that because they can't afford the heating. So they go somewhere where you're sitting working and not paying.

38:45Jessie Ware: Maybe. That's something I would have done as a student, to be honest. But I just find it annoying. They take phone calls as well. Yeah, phone calls is a bit much if you're in the main bit. Yeah, right. But no, Paris, because they don't allow it, you go to certain places. There's a place called Nouage, which is like a chapel that's been converted into a co-working space. Sounds great. You go in in the morning, you pay 23 euros, and all day, coffee, food, they come round, they're like, ratatouille, right? Ratatouille. He's just saying all his best French words. There's a little dog that runs around.

39:22You can just stroke the dog for a bit. Everyone there, you can leave your laptop there. You can go for a walk around the Notre Dame because everyone's co-working. You get little lockers. So you pay 23 euros, which is what, 20 quid, and then you get everything included. Oh, mate. It's great. There's also a lovely...

39:36Jessie Ware: Do you never work at home, Jack? I don't like working at home.

39:40Lennie Ware: Oh, why? The only time I ever write at home is between the hours of 11pm and 4am. I cannot write in the daytime. There's something about when everybody else is doing stuff, I just can't sit and write, I can't focus, You've got FOMO. I get really bad FOMO, Lenny. I get FOMO, so I have to remove myself from the country or wait till everyone's asleep.

40:02Jessie Ware: Has anyone carried the tradition on black cab driver? No, but I do have this. Oh, wow. I've got a little black cab tattoo here. What happened to his cab? I think we just sold it. My mum started... They're worth a fortune now. My mum was like, I want to just drive it round. She got done. Well, no, she didn't get it done, but, you know, it's inadvisable to pretend to be a cab driver. Unless you tell them how much you hate Sadiq Khan. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the only, everybody's universal cab driving. I hate him. But you know what? Every London cab driver hates every single mayor of London, irregardless.

40:40Yeah, they do. But like, I can remember my dad being, I hate Ken Livingstone. I hate Boris Johnson. You're just like, yeah, they're just, anyone that comes in, you're like, oh.

40:48Jessie Ware: Jesse's going to do the pud now. Can you cook? I cannot cook. And do you know what? I recently... What do you mean you can't cook? I'm really bad. Can you read, Jack? I can read. Then you can cook. I know, but do you know, I tried to find some cookery lessons because at the start of the year I was like, I've got to be better than this because it is sort of just like, I can steam things, I can roast things relatively well, but I just, I'm quite dyspraxic, I'm quite useless with my hands. I spill everything. I'm genuinely chuffed and thrilled. that I haven't made a complete idiot of myself eating those eggs on toast because I normally would have...

41:25Jessie Ware: I'm sorry, it was slightly fussy. No, but it was great. But, yeah, I'm just a bit useless. And anyway, I was looking for these cookery courses and they were all known for beginners. And the ones that were for beginners were for, like, 14-year-olds. Oh, no, we went on a cookery course. Jessie and I went to the Prouleth school. Oh, really? To learn how to make bread. Oh, yes, please. Did you have fun? Yeah, it was great fun, wasn't it? It was really good. I would like to, I think what I need to do, my kitchen at my house in London is not very nice. It's one of those old hobs. It takes forever to heat up.

41:58You can't control it.

42:00Jessie Ware: Are you renting? I'm renting. Are you going to buy? I'm trapped there. I would love to buy, but you know, Big Boys was channel four. I've not made enough money to buy it. But hopefully the next job, let's hope. But that is my dream, is to own somewhere with a kitchen that I'll actually be half decent at cooking. Now, for a split second, I thought that was like mustard, but it's not. It's custard. Because it's got saffron in. Oh, really? And that's made it very yellow. This is really exciting. It is very exciting. So if we... I'm frying apricots. You're frying apricots.

42:31Lennie Ware: That's the normal thing you do with apricots, isn't it? Okay, great.

42:34Jessie Ware: And what would you have on your last supper, your drink of choice? My drink of choice... Do you know what? I'm going to go posh. Okay, go posh. I would love a white port and tonic. I've never heard this one Have you ever had a white port and tonic? I've never had White port and tonic You've got to promise me that you'll have one this summer I will do It's a perfect summer drink Where did you drink that first? I drank it in No, the first time I ever had one was in Gordon's Wine Bar By Embankment Yeah, really, really fun And they were like, have a white port and tonic And I tried it and I absolutely loved it And now I see it What do they call it?

43:15Jessie Ware: Is it called anything? It's called just a white port and tonic. Okay. But it's really, it's quite sweet. But then the tonic gives it a real kind of, it takes the edge of how sweet it is. But I think they also do it at Peckham Levels. Oh, yeah. Oh, I've been there. I went to a party there two weeks ago. When are you going to Peckham Levels? I went to Clarem's 80th. There was an 80th at Peckham Levels. They cordoned off a little bit of it. Really? Yeah, but it was an old car park though, wasn't it? Yeah. It does feel a bit like a car park. They also do it at a lovely pub near me called the Lady Mild May.

43:55I would genuinely recommend you have a white port and tonic. I think it's going to be the drink of the summer.

44:00Jessie Ware: Like Brat Summer. You're making it bright. It's white port and tonic. I think you need to come up with a good name for it. Why? Like Port-au-Prince or something like that. Oh. That is good. Yeah, that is good.

44:12Lennie Ware: So this is Helen Graham, who is a fantastic chef. She used to cook at Bubbola. Have you ever been to Bubbola? No, but I've heard of it. So delicious. Vegetarian place. She's amazing. She got a new cookbook out. And this is her hot apricots with cold saffron custard. That sounds good. Yeah. It's beautiful. It looks beautiful as well. Oh, my God. This is really good. Delicious. Helen, you're really talented. It took two goes at doing the bloody custard. It's the hot and cold thing. It's the hot and cold. It's really good. Are you enjoying it, Lenny? Delicious. Really delicious. I love that. Oh, I love that.

44:50Lennie Ware: I could just literally go like that. Boom. I don't really want you to go. Oh, well, that's really sweet. Yeah. I don't really want to go either. Well, then maybe we can do this again sometime. You're such a wonderful guest, Jack. Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. Will you come to the tour? Yes, can we talk about this now? Yeah. So Good Grief that was debuted in Edinburgh 10 years ago. Yeah, 10 years ago. You are returning for your 10-year anniversary. Yeah. New material. It's really fun. So how I'm doing it is I'm going to do 20 minutes of brand new material. Yeah. Funny stand-up. Yeah.

45:25Explain the context of the show. Then there's going to be an interval so everyone can go back to the bar to get another white wine. Or a porto and tonic. Or a porto and tonic. Thank you very much, porto and tonic. and then I'm going to perform the show for the hour in its entirety as it was performed back in 2015.

45:43Lennie Ware: Wow. Which will be really fun. You get two different, like, you get two shows, two Jack Brooks shows. You get new comedy and then the existing show. And then at the very end, I almost do a little bit like a, so what have we learned? And I sort of take, I do a little bit from the present day as well. that is where I'm sort of outlining the fact that that show was written with all of these arts bursaries and all of this support and all this help and it has all gone so it's a little call to arms at the end to say how can we I suppose fill the gap of a lot of that funding that's lost and how can we ensure that young people are able to engage in storytelling and actually make it and be the story themselves because that I was really lucky that happened and everything that's happened with big boys and winning two BAFTAs and all that Lovely, lovely stuff.

46:33And the stuff I will hopefully do in the future has only come because I managed to get all of that funding and all of that support. But it is a laugh.

46:42Jessie Ware: Where do you think you stand on visiting graves? Does your mum go and visit the grave? I mean, I know people who...

46:49Lennie Ware: Where do you stand on?

46:50Jessie Ware: No, not stand. What do you think about? It's a dreadful thing to say. No, but I... But I... Like, Jewish people don't visit graves. Right, OK. Because they're not there. but you visit once a year out of respect. So you do visit graves? You only visit once a year. And then you put a stone on. And you put a stone on to show that you've been. It's kind of been like the knock-knock we've been. We've been, and we respect you. But lots of people go every week and will sit there and talk to the person and have a conversation and feel that they can still connect with them. Yeah, I think that's beautiful.

47:25Do you? It's not for me. But during COVID, when I was back home with my mum, I went and visited my dad's grave every day. Did you? The whole time because it was that one mandatory walk that we got. And I don't know why. It just sort of felt like really, and I'd never been before. I hated it when I was a kid and he'd first died and people would go up there. I actually sort of really quite liked my dad's funeral because it was a really beautiful celebration and there was like 500, 600 people there. It was amazing. He's buried, not cremated. And then he was cremated and then we had a separate funeral for his, you know the stone setting and that I hated and I was like I'm never coming here again and then during Covid I went every day and there was this woman and who's a neighbor from a couple streets down who at the same time as me went every single day to go visit her daughter and we just sort of became like we just sort of smiled at each other we became kind of like little grief friends I don't know really why I went so often I think it was also because it's like my dad's in a lawn cemetery it's quite beautiful to go to and there was something about that that may be isolation that we all experienced where I was like I weirdly cannot go and visit my friends but I actually can go and sit here and just think about stuff and sort of talk things through does he have a nice yeah he does it's really beautiful it says free bird on it which is his favorite song by Leonard which we have in big boys and yeah it's really really sweet and now I love going I don't go all the time but if I do go I feel like I have a different relationship with it I think that's the like really important thing that I try to tell people about grief is that it shifts and changes all the time the stuff that you find unbearably painful at the start subsides or changes or then becomes the thing you love becomes the most celebratory thing I think that's sort of what big boys was about in a way because big boys does look at topics like suicide which I think is really tricky and really difficult and I I'd never watched anything where somebody who'd lost someone to suicide was able to sort of push past the injustice to still celebrate that person and that to me is like the the thing that I'm most proud of with big boys I think it is a space where people who've lost someone in that way can go oh I can still celebrate the best times and the good things and the amazing facets of that person without it being them being solely defined by their passing and that's like I think maybe just from being bereaved a couple of times I don't know if I'll ever stop grieving and that's sort of okay I think that's sort of part of it but that's why it's really nice doing that show again from 10 years ago and actually I think I might do good grief in another 10 years time do you think I think I might do it every 10 years of my life because, you know, there's more people that are going to pass away in my life.

50:18Jessie Ware: More content. More content. But also, I'm quite inspired by Lisa Kudrow and the comeback. Yeah. Where it's like, let's bring this back every 10 years. Because, you know, grieving is a constant process. And how I feel about it in another 10 years' time might be completely different. I sort of like checking in with that. It's not something that kind of comes and goes. it's always sort of with you. And if I can make that funny, which it always has to be, I'm like, my rule is make it funny. Because if something's funny, it becomes less scary and then it becomes sort of accessible. And I do really believe in talking about them, and not in a morbid way, but I just think it makes it feel less isolatory, if that makes sense.

51:07I don't think isolatory is a word, but it is.

51:10Jessie Ware: Well, death is going to happen to everyone, isn't it? Exactly. Yeah. That's the first line of Big Boys from the pilot. The first episode is statistics show that one in every one people will eventually die. And to me, I'm like, that's almost quite comforting to know in a weird way. Like, you know, make apricots, make hot apricots with cold custard. Because you're going to die one day. So you might as well.

51:30Lennie Ware: Yeah. And have another bowl. And have another bowl. Jack, thanks so much for being on. Oh, thank you for having me. Before we leave you, and you may have already answered this with the cheese and Liam Perrins, but is there a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere, happy or sad? Yes, and that is my t-shirt. Scampi Fries takes me to every pub that I used to go with my dad as a kid. They also did cheese moments. Are they cold or hot?

51:59Jessie Ware: They're cold. They're cold. They're like cold little kind of... You get them in a packet. They've got a bite. They've got a bite. They've got a pack. They pack a punch.

52:07Lennie Ware: Yeah, they're so good. You've never had a scampi fry? I've never even heard of them. I am going to send scampi fries to your house. Jack, thank you for being on Table Manners. Thank you so much. Good luck with the tour. Can't wait to see what else you produce and can't wait to watch it. You're brilliant. Can I say, I think you two should also do a spin-off. What's the spin-off? I think you should do a spin-off called Tableware. Oh, what, like Tupperware? Like your surname. Yeah. But then you tried lots of different types of cutlery, Tupperware plates crockery let's expand it from the food to the things we have out of the food it's just a merchandising opportunity I think you guys should capitalise on

52:46Jessie Ware: we've already thought with Henry Holland he makes nice plates we've always I always thought tableware was a good brand name we also thought

52:53Lennie Ware: table wine could be good too do you know what I mean we thought about it all and you could even put an H in there because then it could almost be like it's table wine wine you can wine to okay let's like let's just brainstorm a bit. OK, cut the cameras. Let's go into the board. You should be working for Bader, Barter and Hegarty. You're madmen. Good night, Zay. I'm an opportunity. Thank you.

53:30Lennie Ware: Jack Rook, just the best guest. An absolute delight. So fun, so interesting, fabulous. Loved every second. I just think he's got so many stories to tell

53:43Jessie Ware: that he's going to go on forever. I told him I'd predict he'll be the David Attenborough of comedy. Okay. You know, still going at 100. Happy birthday, David Attenborough.

53:54Lennie Ware: Loved it. Loved the pudding so much. Me too. And the eggs were great. Delicious. This was like a really easy brunch meal to do for someone. So I'm just saying to you now, people, Honey and Co Daily, great book. And Helen Graham's. So is it all vegetarian? Helen Graham's centrepieces, yeah. Bold, vibrant recipes to put vegetables in the spotlight. But do you know what, Jessie?

54:21Jessie Ware: The cover of that book was the colour of your dessert. Yellow and orange.

54:26Lennie Ware: And the custard did set. It was delicious. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I could drink that.

54:33Jessie Ware: Yeah.

54:34Lennie Ware: Oh.

54:34Jessie Ware: Have you got a lot left over?

54:36Lennie Ware: Not enough, Lenny. Okay. Not enough. Okay. Thank you to Jack for coming on the podcast. You can go and watch Big Boy's three seasons of it on Channel 4, or you can go and see him on his tour, which starts at Roundhouse and then goes to Edinburgh, and then he does a whole tour, and he's amazing. Good grief. Celebrating its 10-year anniversary. What are you doing for us today, Mum?

54:55Jessie Ware: I'm going to see if I have to have an operation on my bloody hip. we can get some more podcasts shush we'll see you next week