Johnny Marr

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1:05Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware. And I think I'm a bit stressed. Oh. Mm. Why is that, darling? We have a vegan. I know, they're always stressful. And I think I've overcompensated out of nerves. Yeah. Like you do with the chefs. I've done with the vegan. Well, I do that as well. I've got a vegan for dinner tonight. You can have... I've made two different soups because I didn't... I wasn't sure whether my first soup was good, so I've made two different. so you've got soup for a starter mum. I've got soup anyway for a starter at mine. What vegan soup are you doing? Tomato and sourdough soup.

1:40Oh that sounds nice. Oh shit I should have done that today. Dead easy. Okay well I'm on food cooking duties today and it is a pleasure to host Johnny Marr. Wow. But yes he is a vegan and I get very nervous and you are very happy to give me this but of course we've got a child that is I say sick in inverted commas she's watching telly next door and it's all going to be okay. the sun's shining at least isn't it yeah what are you making darling okay so i have made roast parsnip and pear soup with white beans and then you have it with a rosemary and sage pesto which instead of parmesan and i can't i can't mess with that vegan parmesan it smells like sick i'm sorry somebody needs to work on it okay i've put this cashew parmesan thing which is nice okay so you do that and you drizzle that but i'm a bit worried the soup is quite sweet however the herby thing works with it now because i thought it was too sweet yeah i made a cauliflower soup yeah from the new york times which is very creamy yeah so it so having two no we're not having two soups and then i've made two so it's choice of soups no i don't even know if i should even offer a choice can you just taste the i know you're going to say it's a bit sweet but i want to before he comes yeah okay so then um i've done a new york times recipe it is pearl barley with a radicchio and shiitake mushrooms that are kind of crispy and you do it like with a balsamic reduction with shallots so that's quite nice gorgeous and then i've done grilled broccoli with this mixture of sizzled nuts and seeds that you do and you put a few medjool dates in and lemon juice so that's nice so yeah johnny mar is coming on the podcast for a spot of lunch and we shall be talking all things food, family, music, guitars.

3:29Johnny Marr coming up on table.

3:40Johnny Marr, you're here. You're ready to be fed. Do you know much about the podcast? Have they prepped you? You're basically going to be asked about food. Yeah, I mean, I know a little bit. I deliberately try to avoid being too prepped because I like kind of being natural and winging it and just reacting. That's exactly our vibe. I've learned over the years to try and do that. So we can talk about City's accomplishments, Phil Foden. You look like you're in pain. I appreciate that. You've been very nice. Do you think I look like I'm in pain? Yeah, only a little bit. Well, we were like, we're going to get annihilated at the weekend and then Rashi scored.

4:11I was kind of pleased it was three. No, I'll get that. You know, I know where it goes. Can I get you anything to drink apart from water? I've got lots of things. Have you? You have juice. I've got apple juice. Do you use orange juice? Wine? Well, I don't drink. Talk about that if you want. Do you not drink? No, I'll have orange juice, please. Okay. That'd be great. Just a bit of vitamin C. No, I'm a very kind of enthusiastic teetotaler. Are you? Yeah. Is that because you used to drink... You're looking at me a bit weird. Is that because you used to drink so much? No, because it looked like a really good idea.

4:45Instead of it being that I'm giving something up... Yeah, you embrace it. I actually gave myself the gift of being a teetotaler, and it's brilliant. I love it. Usually journalists particularly make a big deal of it because, oh, I suppose you've got to talk to me about something. But there's a lot of assumptions come with it, because you don't drink, and I understand that. And generally people assume that in the 80s I'd sort of hung my children off the roof with Ozzy Osbourne. I'm like, well, I did a bit of that. But they've got that, you know, my drink and drugs health thing, but it isn't that.

5:18It's like a much more positive thing. So when did you give up? Well, it was about 20-odd years ago. I got to a point, because I had two mates, one of them had been in AA, and another one was very anti-AA, but was into running and all of that. And I just thought, that looks really good. They both looked really younger than the years, and they weren't waking up in the morning hating themselves for saying some stupid shit the night before, and I thought, that looks really good. So I'm a great taker-upper of things. In psychology, it's called appetitive thinking. There's aversive thinking. which is I will avoid, I'm going to stop.

5:52And then there's appetitive thinking. Appetitive. As in, I will have the appetite for. Oh, appetitive. It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, very. But I didn't realise that what I was doing was called appetitive thinking. I wasn't that clever. I just went, I just thought, I just didn't see it as giving up something. I thought of it as giving myself the gift of, and it worked. I got really into it and started running marathons and everything, like flipping Forrest Gump. I know you were a footballer and you had to choose between football and so who were you playing for? Were you in an academy? City Juniors I played for the youth team it was City Youth Team until I was about 15 and then I got yeah I got offered an apprenticeship for Forrest Forrest and I was actually I had this moment in my house where I got in from a game but I had been playing not a show but I'd been with my mates we used to rehearse a lot when I got out of the flipping rehearsal room and on the Saturday night I'd been playing and I used to wear eyeliner and all this.

6:49It was like 1978. So I'd been with my band, which is what I did all the time, and my girlfriend, who's now my wife. So I played the game quite as I often did with last night's eyeliner on, right? So I used to get kicked quite a lot. So I came in from the match on the Sunday, playing for the Sunday League team, and I came into the house and the two guys from Forest were there, but I actually have a guitar because I've been rehearsing the night before, so I actually walked in with my guitar and with my football boots in a bag and all of that, so it was kind of almost like a symbolic thing really.

7:28And, you know, obviously I was amazed to get an opportunity to have an apprenticeship, but it was a bit of a no-brainer. I'm in a band and I can see my dad going. What did your dad think? I can't believe this guy. he's a bigger idiot than I think he is but well the thing about it as well was that I'd already played with a couple of guys who ended up being pro, this was when I was a kid and I saw one was David Bardsley who ended up playing for QPR and he got a couple of England caps, a guy called Gary Blissett who ended up playing for Wimbledon and there was a couple of guys who ended up playing for City and like apprentices and I twigged at about 14, 15 that their intensity about playing so when we used to practice and be training their intensity was like there and i just liked running around and having fun which position did you play were you defend right wing right but then your intensity with playing the guitar was yeah yeah exactly so what i had for playing the guitar and forming the band i did a thing for it was at arena i think recently with with jack grealish where i interviewed him and it was when he was going through a bit of a slump his slump last season I think and we got chatting and he was so great you know he's he is what you think he's you're so disarming because he's just so open and you know he looks lovely he's a really really nice guy he's a lovely guy and we got chatting about it but I think he was surprised that um it's not the first time I've had this conversation with a footballer where my experience teenage experience was much like theirs in other words I think I understand what it takes but what we have in common i mentioned this to him i was like if you grow up in in the uk don't know whether it was same for you jesse but i have stood at a bus stop on a thursday night or wednesday night and a tuesday night in the rain getting wet with my guitar case at 15 and 16 or you know and getting on buses and all of that when my pals are getting ready to go to the pub or having fun i mean this is back in the early 80s late 70s so the world's different now but looking at that from the outside from the footballer's point of view that's them making a sacrifice not going to the pub not drinking being disciplined going to training standing in the cold whatever and i did that as a guitar player you know these bands i was in and not getting on two buses to go to rehearsals in the red light district to manchester when i was 14 and all that but i loved it so now i'm an The older person I can see was a sacrifice.

10:00But at the time, I didn't want to be in the pub with my mates. I didn't. It's what you wanted to do. I want to know how your girlfriend, who's now your wife, how many years you've been together? Over 40? Yeah, since 1979. Did she ever say, Johnny, can you just not go to rehearsal? Because I would really like you to take me out tonight. No, she was the reverse. She was like, well, Angie, you know, I suppose it's a long story, but when we met, I was 15, she was 40, and I was kind of like, I am a guitar player who is going to be in a band and I'm going to be a musician, I'm going to be a guitar player.

10:33And she was like, that sounds good, I'll be a guitar player's girlfriend. And the thing about that is that, well, I always say this, she made me brave, you know, and that mission, walking around council estates, because we did a lot of that because there was nowhere to go and didn't really, I went through periods of, I didn't really get along with my parents and it was mostly my fault. But we were kicking around on a 70s council estate in Manchester with like just dreams. And that's so much easier to accomplish when you've got your soulmate with you at 15. Oh, sweet. Can you imagine without it, I would have just been doing it all on my own and would have been much more difficult.

11:18But when you've got someone who is with you on that and really believes in you and he's super, super smart. And that's been the way it's been through the Smiths and through the Smiths Split and they're there and all the bands have been in. And to this day, you know, you've got that. I've been very, very, very, very lucky. So you were in Ardwick? Until I was 10. No, I moved out of Ardwick when I was 10. When you were 10. But isn't that where the Gallaghers were as well, Ardwick? Well, Noel was born in the same place I was, which is Levenseum. Yeah, we were born in exactly the same place. we've got so much in common, Noel and myself.

11:53Irish families, Mancunian Irish, yeah. You're his idol, aren't you? I'm actually, he's one of his really close mates. I inspired him, I won't say idol, but... And now you're good friends, but I mean... But I think he tries to look like you a bit. Well, you know, it's a guitar playing thing, really. If you're from Manchester and you smoke pot and you like 60s music, you kind of tend to look... It's a bit of a kind of uniform in a way, but I just got there before him because I'm older. So what was the first band you were in? The first band I was in was called Paris Valentinos. Oh, I quite like that.

12:30Oh, I love your name. Well, it was very new wave. Oh, it's fancy. It is, I know, it's very fancy. It was too fancy. Imagine if that was a cake. The Paris Valentinos. Well, it was all like... Makes you sound handsome, like you're all gorgeous looking men. Well, we weren't bad. but I started my first band I wrote in my best mate as a singer when I was 11 he was called Chris Milne he was great so this might sound fanciful but it is that my priority was to do what I'm doing now from being 11 I always was like where's the other usually a guy but some I've worked with so many women as well but so I would wrote my best mate in so my first band it's at 11 but the reason I bring it up is because I actually was very serious about it I look back now and I was like flipping heck I was like really serious it was the main thing I was doing you know more than certainly more than homework which school were you at well I was at I was at Sacred Heart primary school and um so when I moved from the inner city to the I don't know whether this is interesting but when I moved from the inner city to the suburbs for me there was a massive I think within shores of the suburbs.

13:43See, yeah. See. Why? Are you from the suburbs, Mum? I think I'm nearer in than you, actually. Cheatham Hill. God, you're flipping out. Cheatham Hill. Just make sure my wallet is... Don't take this the wrong way. But, no, because it was so the inner city, where there was just me and my sister there. My younger brother was just about to come along. I was very close to my sister. She's 11 months younger than me, so we're called Irish twins. and my mum and dad were, still are Irish. They were both very young when I was born. So we grew up... How old were they? 18, I think. So I had a very close relationship with my mum because she was always like a young woman, right?

14:22But when we moved from the inner city, which I remember very well, that being eight or nine or whatever, to this Withenshaw. Withenshaw is considered quite a rough place, but to me and my sister, it was like moving to Beverly Hills. I want to know, you had your sister 11 months apart, You had your younger brother? Yeah, he arrived when I was about nine, yeah. And when you were eating around the dinner table, were you listening to music and what were you eating? Well, that's a good question because we didn't eat around the dinner table. The house was very working class, very 70s, very Irish, which was great.

14:59What it wasn't was like, so some of my pals, when they had what was called their tea, they'd sort of get together, maybe in a haphazard form, but they'd get together. where in my house, my little brother would be crawling around with his toys on the floor. My sister would be upstairs, crimping her hair, playing chic, really, really loud. And my mum would go, what do you want for your tea? I have a cheese toastie. So my mum would be like, she's trying to sort the baby out. And he'd be like, what's John having? And I'd be like, well, having a cig. I'd be sort of sitting there, waiting for a band to come on the telly.

15:32And they'd be like, have a baked potato with some beans on. So my mum would be just like, So I'd get mine. A calf. She'd be doing that a calf. Yeah, I'd get mine. And then 20 minutes later, my sister maybe would want hers. And then my little brother, he'd need to feed in. And so it was quite, it was like brilliant sort of chaos, really. The only time we sat around the table as a family to eat together was on Christmas Day. And I never knew any different, really. It was great. Did you like sitting around the table? Or did it feel quite odd? It felt very formal and a bit odd. I come from a really amazing, loving, very tight family, but that's just the way we did it.

16:09Could you eat something? Because I've made vegan food. That's amazing. Thank you. You don't have to have a lot. No. I've got a couple of salads. I've got some soup. You can have a bit of everything or a little bit of nothing. I'll try a bit of everything, a little bit of everything. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to get the stuff together. You two can keep on talking. What did your parents do? Did they work? Yeah. My mum did a lot of different jobs. of all kinds of stuff. You know, sometimes she worked in a newsagent, I remember that, and then she worked sort of doing admin for Barclays Bank. My dad, all his life worked putting gas pipes in the road.

16:49So when he used to come in, he would be black from covered in dirt from head to toe. And he loved that and he was great at it. He would go out at four to six in the morning in his van and he'd pick up a few of his pals and they'd go out to Liverpool or Oldham or whatever and he'd dig the road up. And so he was a strong, hardworking, very, very quiet, broody guy to be around. But he liked music as well. He absolutely loved me. He still does. Both my parents are still around. I'm very lucky for that. But, you know, they were quite hardy country. They're from Kildare in Southern Ireland. How gorgeous.

17:34And so that, you know, they were never, like, neither of them smoked. Were they both born there? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then came over? Yeah, they came over. They met in Kildare and they came over here for work with... My mum's from a family of 14. Oh! And my dad's from a family, I think it's five or six. All those cousins. How many cousins have you got? You must have 100. Well, I was one of the first of the kids born. And then, honestly, it's like on a weekly basis, all these little babies, these cousins are sprouting up around me. And, you know, Dermot and Declan and all these Irish kids, you know.

18:11I sort of, I didn't hear an English accent until I was about seven. So do you cook? Who does the cooking at home? Or is it still a baked potato with baked beans? If it was left up to me. Well, I've been very fortunate in a few areas of my life this goes through. Because Angie and I have been together and she's got a really good cook from being kids. Well, actually, when she met me, I was so independent. I cooked. She reminded me of this before I came here today. I was like a very independent teenager. 13, 14, 15. It was another thing. It was a real Irish thing, that. I went to my first ever show when I was 12.

18:48When I wrote my autobiography, I did that in 2016. I was doing a lot of research and I was thinking about my first ever gig which was this band called Slaughter and the Dogs in Manchester and I checked the date and everything and I realised I was 12 and I remember going and walking back on my own and getting in at about whatever half 12 at night and I phoned my mum and I went do you remember when I went to that punk gig it was in 1976 and she's, no, no, not really I went, do you know I was 12 and she went, yeah I was like, what are you thinking? She went, well, you knew what you were doing. Well, I wasn't 12.

19:23By the time I met Angie, when I was 15, I had quite a lot of street smarts about me. I'd had a couple of part-time jobs. I was expert at ducking out of school when I didn't need to be there. Thank you, Jessie. Wow. You don't like coriander? No, I don't. But you do... It makes me angry. OK, well, I've avoided coriander, but there is parsley, sage, rosemary, things like that. Beautiful, thank you very much. That looks amazing. OK, well, we've got some salads as well. When did you move out of home? When I was 15. 15? Yeah. I went to live with my best mate, who then, a few years later, became the bass player in the Smiths, Sandy Rourke.

20:03His parents had separated and left a house in Ashton and Mersey in Sale. So you were living on your own? No, yeah, me and four boys. Oh, bloody hell. It was amazing. You have collaborated with so many people, Pet Shop Boys, Brian Ferry, Talking Heads. Yeah. Who fed you the best out of that lot? Did anyone feed you? I know you were making music, making brilliant stuff, but did anyone put on a good spread? Hans Zimmer. Oh, come on then. Tell me about Hans Zimmer. Hans Zimmer's amazing. Well, when you work with Hans... Yeah. So he'll either... There'll either be a chef in the studio. I like that.

20:41It's good, eh? Yeah. So when I first started working with Hans in 2010, I don't know how long, do you know about cafe gratitude? I am fulfilled. I am satiated. Yes, all of that. I am full of shit. Exactly, cafe attitude. Cafe attitude. I thought of opening something along the lines of that you were thinking that's completely the opposite. Oh my God, I love that idea. Where someone's really kind of a bit arsey. It's like, I am gnarky. I am hungover. I am this. and everyone's got a Manchester accent, call it Cafe Attitude. So for anybody who's listening, Cafe Gratitude is a place that's very pleased with itself in LA, which actually was one of the first places to do really good vegan food.

21:26Is that the one in Venice? They've got a few, I think. Yeah, that's right, yeah. And it is good. I've been with Hannah. But anyway, they're just really pleased with themselves. Okay, so you're having, this is rose parsnip and pear soup. Wow. With a kind of sage and rosemary, cashew, palm. I couldn't give you that vegan parmesan. is so disgusting. So I've got like a cashew thingy. Anyway, it's all vegan. I wasn't aware that you actually cooked the food on this podcast. Yes. Winner. She's done it this time. Usually it's Lenny, but she's scared of vegetarianism. Okay. Maybe I might try and maybe redress the balance for you.

22:02You have to tell me what your ideas are about it. Well, we don't have any ideas about it. You've talked about going vegan when you brought out meat as murder. Yeah. So what happened? So Angie was vegetarian anyway, right? And so where I was at 14, 15, full disclosure, I was very independent, very streetwise. My life was hanging out with older people, usually older guys, because where I grew up, there was a lot of older lads who were playing the guitar and forming bands. And because I was so single-minded and passionate and it was all I wanted, I won't say ambitious. Obviously, that comes into it.

22:41You have to be ambitious. but I just never saw any other, it was a vocation, there wasn't a plan B. This is amazing. Thank you. Really delicious. Really good. Thank you. But to get back to the food thing, at 14 and stuff I started to, I learnt about sagging off school and I used to go to Central Library and I used to do stuff and what it was was that a lot of my older mates had already left school, see. Yeah. They'd left at whatever, 16 and I'd be with them in the evening and we'd be playing at my mates. my mate a lot of activity happened in this middle class boy's house because he was middle class his parents were quite liberal and they it was we almost had this like salon if you like and a bunch of lads were really serious about all the rock music that was going on at the time and we we discussed it and we played it and we learned to play it and then when punk come along we've like learned to play like television and blondie and we're really getting our chops up and they were older than me and I was still at school so I'm there with my tie on and the next day they were going to hang out with Virgin Records or they were going to go and get a ticket to go and see Lou Reed or whatever and I just went well what am I doing sitting in a in a class when I'm like you guys so that's that was why I was sagging off school I wasn't wandering around like you know hating school I just was like I'm done now and so I kind of the school sort of accepted my resignation if you like but I had a lot of time during the day and I was practicing and playing listening to records and waiting for Angie to come out of school because she went to school across from me.

24:11And I was really, really super into smoking pot because I was from Manchester and I was a guitar player. It's the law. And I was good at it. So me and my mates would be getting stoned in the afternoon, like between us putting our resources together and listening to music and taking it very seriously because getting stoned was part of it. And so I learned to make a really, you know, knock up a really great omelette and beans and sausage and dead, dead quick. so when Angie met me she was like this guy like he can smoke in the house he can iron he can sew up his jeans he can turn flares into straight legs and he can cook because she was 14 she was like wow my hero but that was the last time I ever bothered cooking then because then I was around people and to this day so my son for instance my son is how many kids have you done?

25:02I've got two my daughter's just about to be 30 she's like a Jedi in publishing and podcasting and then my son is a really great musician really good guitar player and singer and songwriter and he works with Hans Zimmer mostly and puts out his own albums but he is super vegan and he's an amazing cook so he makes everything from scratch so if he's going to make cashew milk or almond milk he'll make it from almonds he'll make his own pesto and then up and up and up he's an amazing cook so I'm really spoiled from being 15 the last time I was like doing that myself was when I was a 15 year old stoner going right I'll cook up some munchies and then I got this amazing girlfriend who's very um mature for her age and stuff and then we became inseparable from the word go but there was a little bit in between this gives you something about my food history how far i've come but because i was really just bothered about working in a clothes shop to make money for guitar strings and get clothes trying to form a band avoid school avoid the authorities and my girlfriend and when i was working clothes shops i used to just live off little bottles of lemonade and chocolate and then at the end of the day there used to be a thing in the late 70s early 80s people of a certain vintage might know this in the north anyway called Spud You Like.

26:24Oh, like Jacket Potato. Yeah, Spud You Like. We used to have it too, didn't we? Did you? It was brilliant. So when Angie, not long after she met me, I used to just live off lemonade and Jacket Potato. I feel like Jacket Potatoes are coming up in every podcast recently. Did you bring your children up vegan? Vegetarian, yeah. Yeah, my daughter is. So meat is murder. Were you vegan or vegetarian at that point? Vegetarian. So yeah, what happened? Angie was vegetarian, and we didn't make a big deal of it. The point of all that preamble was food was just something that was like a necessity that just had to be done with as quickly as possible.

27:04Right. So I could crack on with the important business. Has that changed? Massively. Okay, right. Massively. Yeah, I've just been out eating in the Maldives in a restaurant where you have to enter it via a rope bridge. It's my favourite place in the world. That culinary experience, walking over the rope bridge into this, essentially a restaurant that is like a tree house. Wow. And just it being done really well, really delicate, super nice portions and everything. I've come a long way from cigs and spudgy-like. So Hans Zimmer does catering. Yeah. And it's good. Yeah. Did your son encourage him to do vegan catering now?

27:45is that what it is all the time? No, but my son's brought to the live crew and you imagine it's a really big production with a lot of people. I think my son's turned quite a lot of people onto veganism, I think. So, Angela was vegetarian. Meat is murder comes out. You're like, can't really be eating meat and that's just come out. And actually just before, in fact. Because I find that people, in some ways, people almost got into this when I got super into running. people almost fetishize food in a sort of unhealthy way to the point where they almost put all these rules on and don't enjoy it you know like they i don't it's a complicated thing people probably know more than i did but because i was so not bothered it was quite easy in a way as well to become uh-huh to become vegetarian because it was a bit of a no-brainer and angie was vegetarian and i was sort of anyway like so if angie was not you know for i wasn't going to meet your fans you but i just thought oh she's fine she doesn't like it so i'll have whatever you know sort of veggie pie or i'll have some soup or something like this is when he was younger yeah early days of the smiths so it wasn't like a major big drama i think that's what i'm trying to say because people it's a little different now but 25 years ago people would ask me about being vegetarian and it was almost like i'd sort of you know it was like you and paul mccarthy i I was in some weird cult.

29:07And it was more difficult when you were travelling. So I hadn't really seen much of the world when I first started out in the Smiths, but going, especially around Europe, Spain, I remember in Germany, it was risotto, risotto, risotto. The world's completely different now, and a lot of people enjoy vegetarian and vegan food for the experience of it. But all the Smiths are vegetarian. I think a couple of the guys used to have the nip off and have a sly burger now and again. Can I get you a plate? and would you like any salads? I want a little bit of salad, thank you. But I don't want to finish with your soup.

29:39Woof that down. You don't have to take much. We've got a tiny pud after as well, which I don't know if it's going to be any good. My mum's, right, help yourself. Do you want to put it on for us, Mum? I do. Should I put it on? Thanks. This is shiitake mushrooms with a bit of pearl barley and radicchio. Oh, no. What do you think? Do you like it? Delicious. This is great. Did you do it all right? No, yeah, I mean, today I did it all, but mum's usually... Between the two of you, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, we do it, yeah. Is that... And you want some more, don't you? Just a little bit, yeah. And then this is just...

30:15Thank you. Broccoli under the grill, and then it's got, like, nuts and medjool dates and kind of, yeah. I mean, I... This is how me and my family live. Right. Perfect, thank you. Is Otolenghi your god? My new religion, yeah, Otolenghi, the Church of Otolenghi. And Anna Jones, do you like Anna Jones? I don't know any chance. She's fab. She's got a really good new book. I'll show it to you. It's great.

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31:43Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

31:53You know, one of the things that I noticed when I became vegetarian, it's a little esoteric this, but I'm that way inclined. I'm not trying to you know prove any big point or whatever but I started to notice that I started actually started to like and relate to animals it much more when I stopped eating them now that's maybe that before that I didn't really relate to them very much I am aware of that because I was such a inner city kid and as you know and essentially my relationship with animals was that dog looks like it might want to bite me. Oh, yes, it does run. Right. Because we're so, you know, urban, if you like, in a city.

32:34It wasn't like I didn't get much opportunity to actually walk around fields and look at dogs. I wasn't that interested, frankly. So did you get a pet? Oh, I mean, I've got dogs for years. I've got big dogs. What's their name? One's called Indy and the other one's called Buzz. But the one I had before that was called Riff. That's a really good dog name for you. One before that was called Boogie. And then I had Otis and Curtis. I absolutely love animals. A bit of that is because Angie's like the dog whisperer. You speak so fondly of Angie. It is so gorgeous. I really hope that my husband... I've been with my husband since we were 18.

33:09And I really don't think he's talking about me like you're talking about Angie. I don't think many people are. You've been together for over 40 years and it sounds like you've just got together and you're just so excited about... You adore her. Well, I do, yeah. but we're kind of like in a way though we're two halves of the same coin I don't mean to try and make this sound like I love someone but no you know some relationships some people are the opposite obviously there's maybe that's even mostly the case but because we met so young and we were on this mission maybe we were alike anyway I mean we're not we do have our differences but because it's been so long and we've been so we've maybe sort of morphed into the same entity in a way if you like I think that's maybe why Is that good for your kids or annoying for them because you'll always agree on the same thing.

33:55You won't be like, ask your mother because it'll be the same. Oh, no, no. Listen, we've got that normal dynamic that every household has, which is like, you know, she's still a... I'm still a bloke and she's still a woman. I get played plenty, you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, classic dad business. But I think it's good for the kids, really. I think the kids are saying that we're really tight. And they must see that as such a positive example of relationships. Where did you get married? San Francisco in the Church of the Not Too Bothered. It was great. Church of the Not Too Bothered. On tour? Yeah.

34:29How old were you? 85, so I would have been like 22, something like that, 21. 85, we got married. How many people were in the room? The band and the crew. You all know, but because we sort of just did it impromptu, like we decided two days before, oh, we've got a day off, why don't we get married? Very romantic. All the crew, particularly back then, you know, like they all sort of rocked up like with stubble and and i think one of them was wearing like a tour t-shirt inside out onto a jacket you know they had no you know what do you mean we're going to a wedding i remember one of them had like tried to iron his collar and it was they were all it was all very sort of i like that that's haphazard that's so sweet yeah well we were the smiths were like famously a little um unconventional and sort of wayward we you know we didn't have a lot of organisation.

35:19Me and Angie were organising it and we were young. So was Morrissey your best man? He was actually, yeah. Did he do a good speech? There was no speech involved I don't think. It was pretty unconventional. And loose and bohemian, you know, which is kind of what we've got in our bones really. Have you ever renewed your vows? I think it's time Johnny. To do a do. In the Maldives. In the Maldives. It's a scoop. I just think maybe you should. Wow. Don't you think it's time? Celebrate those 40 years. You know what, guys? We renew them every day. Oh, my God. Please. Got myself out of that one. Oh, my work.

36:03You're going on tour. Hmm? Is it with the orchestra or without the orchestra? This year is without the orchestra, but I think next year I'm going to take the orchestra out. Peter, the big Johnny Marr Smiths fan in the corner, went to see your gig in Manchester. Oh, yeah. travelled in the pissing rain and I think oh the trains were cancelled weren't they or something weren't they all cancelled anyway he got there he said it was one of the best gigs he's ever been to is that right? yeah we loved it so much at Christmas oh thanks so much that's good to hear but great so I mean you're going to be busy for the next year touring in April doing festivals and then going and doing oh you're doing the States yeah do you like touring in the States?

36:40yeah I like touring yeah when are you going to be there? I'm going to be there end of September, October Oh, that's the best time to tour there as well, the fall. Weirdly, I didn't like touring until I was in my 40s. I did all years and years of it. I just didn't like it. Why do you think? What changed for you? Well, being a frontman changed it. Okay. Not because, oh, suddenly I'm getting more adoration, but because one of the reasons I didn't like it was because I was so obsessed with being in the studio and making records. I was that guy, first one in the morning, last one out at night. I'll fix the outro all these different people I was working with I had my own studio and all that it was exactly what I wanted to do but I found out when I started writing my own lyrics and fronting the band and everything quite rightly I don't think there's a precedent for a singer setting the microphones up being the first in the morning, there in the morning being the last at night I don't think the engineer slash producer makes a very good singer so it's a whole long thing but because I've been in bands for so long we're running bands from being 15 and everything I know that what's important when you're in the studio is for the singer are you feeling like singing and have you got the third verse sorted out you haven't just pasted the first verse or the second verse together to make a third verse of you that's important now when I started doing my solo stuff because I've got all that experience I went into my own studio with my engineer or co-producer I made a decision on that day don't ask me about reverbs don't ask me whether we're going to have the ribbon mics on the overheads.

38:14This was all stuff that I really loved because I know how things should be. You needed to just perform. And get the lyrics right and have an overview and literally take five steps back from the mixing desk and be the front man and the singer. Because usually before that, I was that guy, heading the speakers, editing this, that and the other, as well as playing the guitar. That must have been really hard to relinquish that control and you must have had to get the right people in for you to feel that you could do that and kind of feel like you could be the front man, be able to relax and not worry that the reverb isn't right.

38:51It was a very pragmatic decision and I knew it would be good for the group. A bit so curtuous, whatever the word is, going off on the tangent, but this is why I ended up liking touring so much because my perspective of the studio changed. Like every good front man, I want to be out of there. I don't want to be in there all day. the guitarists love being in the studio for 15 hours they'll be in there all the time the producer will and i made a shift just happened that part of taking care of the business of front in the band well because what i was going to say was that the great front people that i've worked with and my mind always goes to chrissy hind there's a thing they do for their band when you're in a band you're you've got a great singer not just a great singer but a great front man or front woman it's not just about standing up at the microphone and being in the middle it's about leading everyone on stage it's about the vibe in rehearsals I saw that for years and years and I was clocking it and I was like I've got to be that for my band I've got to be that for my band or I've got to not be like that for my band there is that side of it, that's on the other side yeah, Memo to Self, do not do that don't be a dick don't be exactly as much as I can so in other words I really honour that role so what was Chrissie why was she so impressive was it seeing her in the rehearsal rooms or on stage I'm just getting tips well the very first thing was because the first thing I did was I would go into a rehearsal room and see her in the rehearsals and she sings in rehearsals like she's singing in front of 300 ,000 people that really helps doesn't it because then it feels like you're taking it seriously and then everyone else wants to up their game of performing so it's not like they're just kind of noodling because it can get a bit like that sometimes and you that word on on we you know like french word where it's can get a bit of low energy boring low energy so chrissy even though she comes out of the punk period and she will you know she'll say oh i'm not i'm not such a great guitarist she is and i just get up there and do it the first time i stood next to her in a rehearsal room she was not dicking about and she also loves being she loves the business of being in a band that's one of the things that she and I have in common she loved the role of she has a thing about the guitarist is this is a certain kind of role so I was like well I can be that and I am that and so we had this great relationship and just the way you know she's the leader of the gang really without making a big deal of it you just think so when you walk out on stage back then this was just after I'd left the Smiths I was 20 I think maybe still only 23 when I left the Smiths 23 yeah when did the Smith's form how old were you just 19 so it's like five years so maybe it was 24 just 24 when I left but what it was was I'd never played in front of a hundred thousand people before but because I'd joined the pretenders we were on the road with U2 opening for U2 on the on the Joshua Tree tour so I mean the Smiths were big but we weren't playing in front of a hundred thousand people and as we walked up the stage, the leader, Chrissie, looked completely fearless and she was like, so it's a really good feeling when you're 24 and you're the leader of the gang and you're sort of like, I got this, follow me.

42:12And I kind of went, that's the way to lead a band. That's the way to do it. That's so cool. Where are you looking forward to eating on your tour? Is there one particular place that you will absolutely not miss out on? apart from cafe gratitude well i do think that american america has got a you know like a lot of things good and bad it's ahead of the uk and quite a lot of things and with veganism and vegetarianism i lived in portland oregon portland oregon's an amazing place so i think i'm looking forward to portland because god knows what they've got there why did you live there i joined a band called modest mouse in 2005 and they were based there and it was an amazing experience best time of my life.

42:54Did you take your kids over? On and off. Eventually they the family plotted up there for a bit yeah. Why do you think it was the best time of your life? What made it so special? Well Modest Mouse with me were a seven piece band and they were a really unusual, eccentric amazing, each member of the band was super creative in their own right. The music was good, the music was also successful which is always good get you out the house. The album went to number one which first guitar our record for years, I had gone to number one. And we were playing really great shows. And it was a new world for me.

43:29My kids got to be in their teens, 15, 16. I'd started getting pretty fit. I mean, I was running. Sometimes I ran at 18 miles before a gig. Do you still run? Yeah. Run this morning. Every day? No, I wish. But no, I run three or four times a week. How long did you do this morning? 10 miles. 10 miles? Yeah. How long did it take you? Um, about an hour and 20, so I'm slowing up. Are you ready for a cup of tea in a little vegan chocolate pot? I also will move in. Yeah, I mean, you have to kind of do as you're told. I'm now leading you through this culinary. This is the best, I won't say interview, I've ever done.

44:11Aw, that's so nice. It's not really an interview. That's what I mean, that's why I said that. Can't do that. Your last supper, we always ask everybody this. You're not going to die, you're going on a desert island. well you know at start I'm going to say over the years whenever I've got I mean you guys might be informing but you're going to take the piss now but tofu tofu in in like a sort of tamari sauce kind of thing do you know what I'm talking about Jessie like tofu in tamari sauce or soy sauce that kind of like when it's in Japanese exactly yeah and little spring onions yes it's delicious it's Japanese wobbly it's very very light almost silken tofu yeah

44:59your face yeah i know her face is going funny tofu is not high on my agenda this is so nice though because you you feel like you're having a starter and you just doesn't wreck you you know it's pretty super it's super light and it's really really tasty okay i mean i could also i mean also So the other side, if I'm feeling, you know, like just, if I'm not, can't get that. I like similar vibes, mozzarella and tomato. You know, if you go to an Italian restaurant. Mozzarella and tomato. Buffalo mozzarella and tomato. But you're not allowed to eat that because it's not vegan. You know, honestly, I'm definitely vegetarian.

45:39I haven't had meat for 40 years, but I can bend the rules for a bit of mozzarella. What about a little omelette? Are you going to shove an omelette in there too? Cajun, I'd have a little omelette. Do you? For running, yeah. Yeah, I bet. For protein. I'm strictly vegetarian. So those are your two starters? No, okay, I can have both of those. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not going to overthink it. Thank you, Jessie. For sure. Well, I'll have some kind of penne with pesto, because if you put pesto on anything, I'll eat it. But that's got parmesan in. Yeah, again. Yes, he's going vegetarian. I'll look the other way.

46:09Lenny, I'll look the other way. I'm not that strict. All right, darling. But would you have pesto at home? Yeah. You see, Jess. So if I could put parmesan in that pesto? But Niall makes, he makes amazing pesto and that won't have dairy in it. So I'm pretty sure anything can be done without dairy. I just want to know which kind of cheese substitute he uses. If he does use a substitute or he just uses like nutrition or yeast or whatever. I think he'll do it out of cashews or something. Yeah. Cashew, yeah, cheese, yeah. Yeah, he'll do it out of cashews, yeah. Is he Niall Irish Niall or Sheik Niall?

46:42He's named after Niall Rogers from Sheik, yeah. So he's N-I-L-E. N-I-L-E, yeah. Okay. The river, yeah. As opposed to Niall. Niall Rogers calls him his God's soul son. God's soul son. Yeah. Have you met Niall, Jessie? Have you met him? I have met him. Yeah, I've met him too. He once asked me out. But he doesn't remember that. Yeah, I did tell him that. Jessie, I was with another bloke at the time. I think he's asked out a few people, hasn't he? Yeah. Has he? Where was that? I went to see him perform. and the guy I went with was in advertising. It was something to do with that. And that's how I met him.

47:20You didn't fancy it? Kind of, yeah. So this is... Nile Astor out, no. Didn't surprise me. He hasn't done the podcast yet. No. We'll maybe get some on. Friends reunited. There's some oat meat cream if you want it. I'll say she's still got it. Still got it, yeah. She's still got it. Okay, let's just check. Tell me what the cream is like. Don't have the cream. Why? The chocolate's fine. Why not the cream? Because the cream is not, it doesn't need it, I don't think. Okay. Did we get the main? The main, I'm just going to have some... Penne with pesto. Penne with pesto. Okay. It just delivers for me every time.

48:02It just hits the spot. Yeah, it does, yeah. And also because of the running thing. Yeah, what's in this? Wow. Coco. Yeah. Cocoa powder, sugar. Yeah. oat milk, cornflour and vanilla essence and then dark chocolate. Very good. It's a little bit like those ones that you get for your kids, like, you know, the little chocolate pots, like goo or something. Like, it's like... Really, yeah, it's a little bit. But it is homemade and it works. No, it tastes... Very clever, Jess. It's beautiful. Oh, thank you, Johnny. You're so sweet. You're so lovely. I didn't get your pudding. Did we get your pudding? We didn't get your pudding.

48:37No, I'm going to... It's really basic. but some main course pesto and some really good penne pasta with pine nuts. I'm not a savage. It's going to be some well done vegan cheesecake. Have you found a good vegan cheesecake anywhere? Yeah. Where? From the deli near my house. Before we let you go, Johnny, I really have enjoyed chatting to you. You are such a great storyteller. Can you sign my book? Oh, of course. Mars Guitars. How many guitars are you up to now that you own? I think I bought maybe two since that book came out. And in the book, I said I've got 132. So I've got 134 officially. Where are they?

49:21I'm not going to tell you. You might have some. I don't know you guys. But it's like. I might have someone go up there and rob me. She's from Flippin' Cheating Hill. Johnny Marr, thank you so much for coming and spending time with us. And we can't wait to see you in concert and read the book. and listen to the best of... I mean, you're an overachiever, to be honest. And can I tell you, for a vegan, I'm a little bit in love now. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I'll take that. I will take that all day long. Yeah, fantastic. Thank you. Thanks, guys.

50:08I love Johnny Marr. I'm in love with Johnny Marr. Well, I feel like you both had a very wonderful Mancunian connection. Yeah. I think he was even flirting with you, mother. Yeah. What a lovely man. He's delightful. The best stories. I don't think food was top of his priority. But he was incredibly complimentary about my vegan food. Should we talk about my vegan food, mum? It was amazing. Yeah, tell me more. That soup was off the scale. Listen, that shout out to Hans Hungry on Instagram, who is, oh my God. Just start letting me be your ambassador. The Bold Bean Company is in their cookbook, but it was...

50:44Did that have beans in it? It had white beans. Yeah. Pears and white beans. And parsnips. Oh, that was delicious. So I won't be needing that cauliflower soup that I did as well. Freeze it, darling. Oh, yeah. For the next vegan. Oh, yeah. That's such a good idea. That's a great idea. Johnny Marr is touring in April. He has Marr's guitars. He's just given my daughter a plectrum and he says if he sees it on eBay, he knows if it's going for$4.85, then he knows who sold it. So darling, you're not allowed to put that on eBay. Look at that. And he also has his best-off album out, Spirit Power. I absolutely loved him.

51:26And I'm going to get him to do a lick on my new record. Don't care. How cool is that? Yeah. Anyway, thanks for listening, everyone. See you next week.

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