Jonathan Van Ness

0:00The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

0:39Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

1:05Hello and welcome to Tape Minders. I'm Jessie Ware and we have some news. We have big news. Lenny has become a grandmother again. Number four. Number four. How does it feel then? It feels okay. I feel blessed. Abundant. He's gorgeous. He is really gorgeous. He just doesn't look very squashed. I don't know how she managed that. Because he didn't look kind of swollen. Anyway, he's gorgeous. And you get to meet him very soon. I'm going next week to meet him. And your brother's there at the moment helping with sleep. Yes. And I get to see him in about a month. I can't wait. So congrats, Han. Not that you'll be listening to this because you've got far more important things to do.

1:48But maybe we will be in her ears to keep her awake in the night for it. Who knows? Maybe she'll present the new series of Is It Normal? Maybe she'll start listening to our podcast, darling. Maybe she will. Anyway, this is the last of the series that has gone on forever. Yeah. We've been going since October, I think. So we thought we'd go out with a bang, a big bang, a big fabulous bang. And we have Jonathan Van Ness coming on. Have you watched Queer Eye, Mum? No. So when Anthony came on, you didn't know who he was. You just thought he was cute. Yeah. Well, Jonathan is also cute and has the most luscious hair I've ever seen in my life.

2:26Jonathan is a TV host a comedian a children's book writer a podcast host a gymnast an entrepreneur in hair I mean has like a hairstylist I mean they do many a thing Jonathan's also been very open about being a survivor of sexual abuse a recovering drug addict they're happily married they're bringing their husband today I think and best friends with Nicola Coughlin and Jonathan I remember in lockdown doing many a dance routine to spotlight my song. Is Jonathan from America? Yes, I think from like Illinois maybe. Okay. But anyway, we've got lots to talk about. I want to hear about their garden, the snails, the biggest pumpkin I think I've ever seen in my life.

3:13And what are you cooking? I'm doing something I tried out the other day. It's called Scandi salmon. So it's basically salmon, you bake vegetables, which includes radishes. I've never roasted a radish. So it's got roast fat radishes. It's got onion, beetroot and potato, very thinly sliced. You bake that and then lay your salmon on top. And then you serve it with pea shoots, horseradish and creme fraiche. Dill? I've done a salad. There's dill on it. Of course. And capers. And I've done a salad. And then I've made individual summer puddings, which are very fiddly. But you know I don't really like cooking.

3:55but I like making these. Why? For some reason, I don't know because you have to put it all together with the bread inside and then you put all the fruits in. Is it like making a sandwich in a cup? No, it's just nice doing it and it turned out so well last time. Let's hope it turns out well this time. Whose recipe is it? Mine. You've made it up? Summer pudding is bread and fruits. You used to make summer pudding every summer. Yeah, but I used to make a big one and I think this is better so if you make a big one it all falls apart this way you have your own little individual and it's lovely and what do you serve it with?

4:34Cream? Cream lots of cream. Jonathan Van Ness finishing Table Manners series 16 I can't wait. Oh about that we will be coming back we thought that Second Helpings went down so well that we're going to do a few more of them see you're welcome and then we will be back in the school new term Jonathan Van Ness coming up on Table Manners.

5:06Well, as expected, Jonathan Van Ness has come in with an absolute bang. Told me about how my hair has been too bleached, but very kindly put, may I add. Not too bleached for the health, just for your desired end colour. I don't even know what my desired end colour was. It was black to black. Oh, shush, mum. As Amy Winehouse would say. All right. We're talking about Taylor Swift already. Your nails, each nail represents a different favorite song or era. It's just I was trying to give you a little era. Were you doing eras? Yes. You gave eras. I did. I gave eras. Have you seen her before, John? Not in concert.

5:42Not in concert. Only in life. You've met her? Yeah. What's she like? So sweet. Loves cats. Super kind. Okay. Nice texter. They text you back. Would you say you are part of the squad? I don't know how you get bestowed this title but I will say this if I like text Taylor she will like text me back which is cool that's fucking cool yeah love her she's like really good and we both love cats mum Taylor Taylor has I don't know is Meredith still around yeah I think so oh my god this is Prince does Prince like to be held and kissed on the nose well I don't want to kiss your face I'm obsessed with you don't leave he'll be back don't worry also Jonathan what pronouns would you like today?

6:29any of them what are you feeling like one today more than the other? here's why I feel about pronouns I feel like I want to remove myself I'm kind of like Taylor with like that whole like I want to remove myself from this narrative I feel like that about the binary so just any is fine it's like my subtle protest because I might make mistakes no you can't I can't make mistakes you literally can't make a mistake with me you can do anything with me I mean you can in life but not with me. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, Mum, Taylor Swift has a cat called Meredith after Meredith Grey. Of course. Obviously, Grey's Anatomy is one of the best programmes on TV.

7:04Sorry, I didn't know you knew that trivia. Shonda Rhimes, darling. Oh, yeah. Oh, Shonda Rhimes. Yeah. Well, that segues nicely into How's Nicola? Oh, my God. She's so, I think, we're going to go together. Oh, Mum, you're bad luck. Mum is obsessed with Bridgerton. Are you caught up on season three? I am. Finished it. Yes. It was hot. I went to the premiere of the second season. My husband, I was watching it on my laptop. My husband moves over and is like, what's going on? No, I'm fearful that I'm like Nicola Coughlin sexual, like a little bit bi now. Like the look on her face when like Luke was like about to like, like go full in and that.

7:40And when she was like, I was like, like, yes. Like straight love. Wow. We went straight into it and we haven't even talked about what we eat. Do we want to drink? would you like anything to drink I have just water I have to do hair after this so you don't want wine I can't drink and then do hair okay I'll fuck it up what whose hair are you doing I don't know this like nice person named Irene and I'm gonna put like some waves in her hair so I don't wanna like burn her maybe that if you're feeling a bit wavy it'll be alright no yeah well if you guys are gonna have a glass of wine I'll have a glass no you don't have to I love it I felt like that was very peer pressure no let's do it I mean I love alcohol just cause like the president of GV and hair it's like right there so I was just trying to be responsible.

8:21I haven't drunk two days. Well done, Mum. Let's celebrate with a bottle. I'm always so impressed with myself. I'm like, wow, like two days? Two days is... I'm like so anti-inflamed. I feel almost abstinent. No, Mum, actually, shout out to somebody that has sent us some non-alcoholic wine. That looks beautiful. It looks very beautiful. It's called Wednesday's the Main. I don't know if it's any good. We could taste test it here. Where is it? Did you put some in the fridge? It won't be cold enough. It looks very good. Yeah, let's have the good stuff. Not that that's not good. No, let's have the real shit.

8:51Yeah, let's go for the gold. Okay, let's have the real shit. John White, Red. No, I was just trying to be responsible for three seconds. It's over now. Don't be responsible. Yeah, Rosé? Rosé. Yeah, that sounds nice.

9:03Are you having a nice time? Yes, I've never had more fun. This is the... I can't get over it. Can we go through your discography? Like, that sounds... Do you want to do... Oh, I can start doing that in mine. You're right, you're right, you're right. I'll come down. No, I'll call my turn. I mean, no, I feel like one must acknowledge the elephant in the room of the most beautiful rendition of spotlight during lockdown in your kitchen i remember your hair was i mean you were armography and everything i appreciated it you know i felt very special the way that you speak to our community is so beautiful and it's so like in your bones like no you just like you gotta go i mean they're just when you make music my gay body goes alight.

9:46And it does. Like, I feel like I can control like my middle toe to your music. Like, I am just like so articulate in my body. And I can also say earmuffs for mom. The best sex I've ever had in my life, like consistently is to your music. Like, when people are like, what's your fuck albums? I was like, anything. Oh, God. Would you wear anything? It's just like... Jessie, don't look sharp, darling. That's what you're going for. You know that that's like, it literally makes me like, it makes me like, it's like, I want a bottom, but I want to be in control. You know what I mean? I'm like, here, let me do it.

10:17Like, that's what your music makes me feel like. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Cheers to that. Thank you so much. Cheers, darling. Which should also make me say, thank you. Because none of us, none of this would have happened without your majesty. Your fucking majesty. And also, let's change the subject one more time. Yeah. The face frame on your hair cut is so perfect and so fucking cute. No, look at you and your red lip. Get out of my fucking face. She has a red lip. every day it's so timeless and so gorgeous so taylor so taylor so you i listened to you on diary of ceo and your mom sounds amazing like the cutest she's cute and very much believes in therapy yeah you said you were in therapy from like five years old and she just sounds she sounds wonderful but your your your stepfather sounded wonderful yeah like it sounds like you were from a very loving family and what were you eating around the dinner table when you were younger Where were you born?

11:14I was born in a little town on the Mississippi River called Quincy, Illinois. And, well, what was, like, my favorite? Okay, not to be picky, but I feel like my mom and stepdad just, like, made dinner that I thought was gross on purpose. Like, they, like, really loved, like, a chicken divan, which, like... What's a chicken divan? It's so fucking nasty, you guys. It's chicken breast covered in, like, cream of mushroom soup. Oh, yeah. With all of this, like, broccoli in it. and then it's covered in like cheese and Funyuns. What's Funyuns? In the oven. Crisps. Yeah, like those fried onions. That sounds great, babe.

11:48It's not. It sounds great, but it's the cream of, it's not. At least for me. Was it like chicken tonight? I feel like chicken tonight. Yeah, like this very wet-ass chicken casserole. With Funyuns on the top, but it was no Funyuns. It was like trying to rescue, the Funyuns were like trying to like rescue something that was already broken. I feel like, you know what I mean? It was like it was too little too late. So why did they repeat it? Did they like it? Because like my brother loved that. And then they also love pork tenderloin. Oh, actually, you know what my favourite thing with my mum was now that I think about it?

12:15Yeah. That bitch makes the most gorgeous twice-baked potato you have ever. Twice-baked potato? Yes. Do you guys know about both in England? We know about thrice here. Oh, have you ever heard of thrice? No, that's chips, darling. That's chips, though. Oh. But no, tell me about twice-baked potato. So it starts with a jack of potato, as you all call it. And then you scoop out the inside. Yeah. You put it in a bowl with sour cream and cheese and bacon. Oh, I've done that for barbecue. Yeah. And then you put it back into... Yeah. So you guys would call that a loaded potato? I don't know. Yeah, loaded.

12:46You love them when I make them. But you take the mixture and you make it in the bowl and then you put it back in the potato and then you bake it again. Do you put chives in or onions? Yes, you can top it. I like a chive. A little green onion. Gorgeousness. Yeah. That sounds delicious. So good. Twice baked potato. So did your family... Were your family, were they big kind of hosters? Would you be having those twice cooked potatoes at a family event? Or would it be more like on a regular Wednesday? My mom's a really cute entertainer. She would like to have the family over, but I feel bad for talking shit about her dinner.

13:19Let me just say this again, but you should keep all that. But my mom's breakfast, I think, is really where she shines. Okay, tell me. She's like this really gorgeous coffee cake. She has these really good egg casseroles. Oh, egg casseroles. Yeah, she does kind of like a sausage and pepper one that's like a little spicier and then she does one that's more like for people who don't like spice it's more just like egg and cheddar and like vegetables like her breakfast is really super strong are these celebration breakfasts? yeah that'd be like our Christmas breakfast not just like all the time but my mom would make me a coffee cake like for special because I'd be like mom that coffee cake is everything what's the topping on the coffee cake?

13:52it's like that cinnamon it's like a yellow cake with like cinnamon sugar like oat chunks like all throughout it so like some of them like kind of sink yes oats of course yes that's exactly right I like how you think it's how I think too but yeah so she's really good at breakfast and her dinners are good too I feel bad I just like hate pork tenderloin and chicken divan and they like really made us eat that a lot who cooks at home for you is it your husband or you my husband is he a good cook yeah yeah and but also like I am a good cook I just love I'm like too busy like working are you going to Glastonbury when is Glastonbury I don't feel like end of June farewell in Glastonbury why because it'd be too much fun or is he just like such a big crowd it's a lot of people mark said this it is the best yes is mark your husband and is mark english he's from messex so how did you two meet um he slipped into my dms and it worked out yeah really well when he well he i always like to joke and say he was like he was like oh my god i want to see your dick but really he said who made that jumper and who did make that jump i don't even remember but then i was like he's so hot But do you live in England or in the state?

15:04No, we live in Texas. Why Texas? Because we went there for work and then we just stayed. Whereabouts in Texas? We're in Austin. It's so grey. It's supposed to be gorgeous. It's fantastic. I thought you said grey. I was like, it's so sunny there. I love it there. Do you think you'll have children? You guys, I'm breaking the news here first. I always said no and I was like, I never want kids. Then, well, okay, so then we were at Bergdorf Goodman in New York on Father's Day just like a week ago right? Yeah. And our friend was joking about how she wanted to get so thin that she could wear children's clothes because like designer children's clothes are so much cheaper than adult clothes so she was like if I got thin enough do you think and I was like stop body shaving and she was like it's not about that they're just cheaper maybe I could like buy two and like sew it into one for the price of like a half of one still like so then as she was saying that about children's clothes I like looked into the children's clothes department and I was like

16:03do I want a baby? And then but then we'd had like I'd had like two Bloody Marys at brunch right? Yeah. So I couldn't tell if it was like midday blackout or if it was like that I really wanted to be a parent so Mark was like if you wake up tomorrow like talk about a baby then like maybe we'll talk about it and by the end of the day I'd already named the baby Aubrey and I'd already gotten to a fight with my sister-in-law who was in town randomly and you were like Mark's sister and she was like shitting on my baby names and I was like oh and then it was really bad because she was like what do you think about scarlet and I was like oh no never that's like the scarlet letter like slosh and then she's like well my daughter's middle name is scarlet and I was like I love that name it's really classic it's really gorgeous like hopefully you know that I was just like fucking kidding because I never would say that about the name scarlet I love it uh but then I was like Aubrey like is our baby Aubrey no just like Aubrey like how cute like Aubrey yeah no it is lovely I like Audrey as well for a girl yeah oh Audrey we love but I was thinking Aubrey Aubrey's your kid.

16:57Yeah, she's Aubrey. She's like our baby. Is it a girl or a boy? Yeah, girl. She's going to be a girl. Oh, Aubrey, a girl. That's quite good. I thought it was a boy's name. Sydney. Non-binary. Yeah, right. I don't care about it. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So is there a plan in place? No. Mark was like, it takes years. And I was like, it doesn't have to take that long. Like, maybe it won't take us that long. No, not in the States. Yeah, I was like, adopt a baby. Are you going to adopt one? I think I want to adopt. Okay. Yeah. I can't I want to adopt You're not into surrogates I know I love surrogates I mean that's great I just like I feel like there's so many babies and especially like not to be like you know downer but especially like after Roe v.

17:37Wade there's like After what? Roe v. Wade Oh Roe v. Wade There's like all these kids who like are gonna need Oh is Texas one of the states? Oh yeah Does it make you not want to live there? Yes But Austin is incredibly liberal right? or not you know it does like i've been in austin since 2021 or no 2020 2020 and it it really does feel different in these like you know these last four years like the climate feels worse and it feels like especially like in our state legislator they have like weaponized the government so much against queer people that it's like even when the laws don't pass like they're just like they were trying to like target like uh like all gay bars is like put all gay bars is like the same as like a like a full nude strip club to like you know like and they were like trying to target like all drag brunches and they were trying to just like it just makes you feel like more unwelcome and like just kind of constantly like looking over your shoulder you know does it feel more liberal in england um i think that london london for sure yeah but i think that like unfortunately no matter where you are it's like if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time as a queer person, like it doesn't really matter where you are.

18:52You know, like lots of bad things can still happen. But London is by and large like cuter, but also a lot of stuff goes down here. I mean, a lot of stuff goes down in New York against, I mean, just anywhere. Homophobia and transphobia is like a formidable foe. What was it like growing up as a queer person? I mean, I think that like I wouldn't change anything because I think everything, what we go through, it like makes us who we are. And so I'm grateful for what I went through, but it was rough. I mean, I was like very flamboyant. And, you know, to this day, if I hear the word fag, I like will turn.

19:21I'm like. Who says things like that? People just driving by you in the street or like. Sorry. No, it's fine. Actually, I recently. This is bad, but I'll talk here. It'll look kind of funny. So I started playing Fortnite, like the game Fortnite. And there's this thing on Fortnite where if you are playing like group, trio, or like party, parties for people. If you don't turn off autofill, it will just like randomly put people in your party. so I used to do that and so like random people would like get in my party and all these people just like say faggot all the time on Fortnite and like they just Was it like a diss?

19:57Yeah Just like faggot this faggot like ah faggot just like all these faggots and so then I after playing for a few months like I found myself like I'd be like oh faggot then I'd be like wait but then I was like wait this is subversive I was like I like reowning faggot honey so the next thing I knew I was like faggot this faggot that and then I was like wait you need to stop saying that all the time because like is it too controversial but then I was like no I'm owning it and it's fierce and if you're so now like gay people are reclaiming fag but it's like more of like yes diva it's like yes diva you better shoot that person on fortnight yes faga one theme that always comes back for me when I talk about this like I talk about a lot in my book or my first book over the top it's like I always had like very high highs and very low lows like there was a lot of joy but there was also a lot of grief there and there was a lot of severe bullying but I also like really important friendships that like got me through all of that so it was rough but like I like I'm obsessed with figure skating and gymnastics like I love music I love moving so like I just always had things that I felt really connected to that I would like do to bridge the gap to like kind of get me through so as tough as it was in a lot of moments I had so much passion for life that it did like in eighth grade I remember I got like this gigantic like I went to Staples and spent like$15 on like post-its which had been from like quarters that I'd like siphoned from my stepdad's like change drawer which was the second time I'd stolen from him because the first time I used it to go to Walmart and get hair color to dye my hair red um and it did not turn out cute at all my so-called life was bad and he came home from work and he was or he came home from like golf or so he's like how did that happen to your hair I was And he was like, all my change is gone.

21:42And I was like, weird. How did that happen? But I got this like post-it book that like I like counted down the days until I could like leave Quincy. It was like 4 ,000 days or something. It was like four years. Or like 1 ,200 days, whatever. It was like a lot of days. And so I just like always knew that there would be something better and bigger and I could leave. So it was kind of just about like bridging the gap until I knew I could get out. When did you leave school? I graduated a year early. So I graduated high school in 2004. And then you went to university? Yes, but I only made it for a semester.

22:15Why? Because I did drugs and became a prostitute. Oh, okay. And so then I was like, hmm, that didn't go so hot. What were you studying? Drugs and prostitution? It was really communication, but I really wanted to be a lawyer. Okay. But you wanted to do hair. I really wanted to do hair. But you felt like you needed to go to university. Well, my family's like, you have to go to university, and then you're still talking about hair in four years. But then I was like, I'll probably be dead if I don't do hair before that because all of this other stuff just sounds awful. And so then I went to hair school in 2005 to 6 and like really fell in love with it real fast.

22:51Where was that? In Minneapolis. Minneapolis. Yeah, so it was very cold. Yes. Very, very, very cold. St. Paul's I know of. Yeah, Minneapolis, St. Paul. They're like sister cities. So it's right there. Why did you choose Minneapolis? Because there's this really good hair school there. Okay. And like Aveda. Have you ever heard of Aveda? So that was like kind of where the founder of Aveda was this man named Horst Recklebacher. And he did like the first kind of like organic-y, like natural, like he was like the first like clean queen in like hair care. And so he was actually, as the lore goes, he was like moving to LA to start Aveda, but he got in this horrific car accident in Minneapolis in like 1978.

23:28So he just stayed there and launched Aveda from there. So that's why the Aveda Institute was like started in Minneapolis and it had this really good reputation. So I moved there to go to school. I want to talk about JVM, which I've been using. I got sent some, I think, over a year ago. And it's really good. It's nice, right? My daughter uses the hair. Conditioning mist? Yeah. I love. Because she's got curly hair. So she can just suck it up. And so I put it in her hair before school and then comb it through. And they're beautiful products. I really love conditioning mist. It's such a good detangler.

23:59But you have so many products now. I do. There's 13. Or 14. It's an empire. Yes. and you know empires are full time jobs yeah right you know yeah it always sounds like really cute and fun until someone files for bankruptcy and you have to like fight for the future no one's gonna file no they did our old parent company did and we had to like go through that all last year it was so intense we had to like really just like battle for our future and we found our home and I'm so excited even just like this whole trip to the UK I was saying earlier like I feel like the first part of my career was so like everything that I could have ever dreamed to happen like did plus some so it just kind of felt surreal but as surreal as it felt it was like okay like I guess this is just like supposed to happen and then last year I had and this year I've just had like such a series of like really intense like whether it was like our former parent company filing for bankruptcy health scares like death in the family like articles like it really like I always was grateful but I just am so much more grateful for like every experience I get because like I almost I mean I have like lost so much I've experienced so much in this last year that it just I am just so much more grateful because like I mean especially with JV and hair I mean there was like a good like month in the end of 2023 where like when they first filed for bankruptcy you know the thought was like well you know your your hair care line's really successful like you guys are doing really good you'll certainly find a buyer who is going to want to work with you and the the problem with bankruptcy is well one of the many problems with it is that like the court controls like has to approve like buying and selling and I wasn't an owner of my company so like I really didn't have like say and if I mean I I did and I didn't it really depended on like who potentially wanted to partner with us and like are you familiar with jojo like the singer of course like we love jojo i love jojo so much but i mean there was a potential where like i could have experienced something really similar to her but in hair care like where someone would have come and bought like the ip of jv and hair and bought our inventory but they didn't have to necessarily work with me and there were people who were in our orbit who were interested in this and you know to think that like i mean developing these formulas right i mean i like write the copy on our bottles.

26:20Like I've just been so intrinsic into this company and I've just worked so hard to like come that far and have it like be taken. And so like that was a possibility. And then there was like layoffs and there was like just so many decisions and pressure and like cause and effects where a lot of the cause and effects were decisions that like we couldn't make, you know, like a parent company makes, decides like where the money goes and what to invest in and what to pay for and what not to pay for and how to grow and or how not to grow and you know you have to like clean that mess up and so it made me I just learned so much last year and I learned like how much things can change and how quickly and so it just this experience like being back in the UK here I just am so grateful like I just have been like so close to tears so many times I'm just so happy to like be here and see this and there was a time made here it's made in the United States okay um But we are sold here.

27:17We're at Space NK and we've been here for years and so much of our community is here. And I mean, I think there was just like in the beauty industry, like a lot of people knew what kind of what was going on last year. But you like, you know, when you're going through a bankruptcy and like you can't just like go say anything you want to say. You kind of have to just like be quiet and let things play out and like do your best behind the scenes to like land on your feet. And we did. We stuck that landing, even though I did get the twisties, you know, in the middle of it. And, you know, I got severe hair care twisties and it was really stressful, but we really stuck our landing.

27:50Were you filming Queer Eye at that time as well or not? Kind of, actually. We like season seven and eight, we shot together, which was back in 2022. So it was kind of around that time where I was like certain things were starting to happen where I was like, wait, there's like some of this doesn't like add up. And then by 2023, I think they filed in, it was like July of 2023. so from July of last year so we didn't film last year at all so from like July of last year until December it was just like we did not know what was going to happen or like we just literally didn't know where we would land or if we would land or if JB and Hair would even exist and so maintaining through that was like incredibly hard but getting to shoot Queer Eye this year was like because I went from all of that fiasco to then there was this like article that was written about Queer Eye and myself in like March.

28:48But our whole kind of like Queer Eye family had like first learned about this article in like December. So like I went from like this bankruptcy to then like, oh, there's like someone who's like gonna write like an investigative takedown like expose piece about you that like isn't really based in reality, but can certainly have a lot of things taken out of context to like make you look as bad as possible. So that could drop any day now. So just so you know. so from like January to March I was just like walking on eggshells like being like when is this gonna happen and then it did finally happen and then how was that for you it forced well one thing it taught me was that like I had been getting so much like self-esteem from like social and just like just like my job that like I didn't really think that I did get so much self-esteem from it And then once I had like so many people like at once just be really like, I think a lot of people were like looking for a reason to hate me or like looking for a reason to be like, see, I always knew that they were a fake cunt and this is like the proof.

29:50So just, and I like, my family was like so supportive of my husband and my team, but like I didn't even get on social media or like look at my phone for like three weeks. And anytime I tried like to dip my toe in, like I would immediately see something that was like so intensely hurtful or just had so much experience. It hits you in the gut, doesn't it? Yeah, because I think people forget, no matter how famous you are, you're still a person. And I'm not someone who has... I mean, I certainly am in a more comfortable place financially than I was five years ago, but that article came at an incredibly vulnerable time for my hair care company for my whole career.

30:28It just was really rough, and it made me learn not to identify with Armie Hammer, but I thought Armie Hammer's like most recent interview that he did where he was like, you know, so much of my validation did come from my job. And it forced him, he was saying how like it forced him to learn how to give himself love. And I think that that article made me realize like how much I'd been put in this position of like being an expert or like being perfect or like, and it made me learn. Cause I mean, I'm someone who championed self-acceptance, but sometimes self - acceptance looks like having to love yourself through incredibly hard times.

31:05And even though I do believe that that article was like overwhelmingly untrue and done in bad faith, there've obviously been times through your career, like through my career where you're like stressed out or like I may have been like elbow deep in highlights and was like, no, I can't talk about that right now. Like, I mean, I know that there was times where I like could have been better, but I think also being a survivor of abuse and talking about everything that I've talked about, like it took me, like I internalized it so badly where I was like, oh my God, is it true like am I really this bad person like so and then it forced me to just like really learn how to slow down disengage and then really love myself but sometimes loving yourself just looks like feeling your feelings and I just had to be sad for a minute and I just had to like kind of withdraw and go into myself and feel it and then once I got done feeling it I was like I was able to like get the language to be able to say what I just said it just kind of paralyzed me and then And it took me a while to like learn like how I wanted to talk about it or if I wanted to talk about it.

32:04Had you filmed the most recent Queer Eye by that point? Or was this? No. So how, how, have you, you filmed it? Yeah. So the article came out, so the article came out March 5th and then we went back into production like March 23rd. Oh yeah. It was so intense. It was so intense. I'm going to serve up. Okay, mom. Yes, mom. This salad though, the gorgeosity of this salad. You are so generous. Is this like Martha Stewart in a garden? Well, I don't know. But let's talk about your garden. Because I've seen on the gram, don't you have big like pumpkins and shit? And you've got like nets for them. Do you want to bring up the pumpkins?

32:42You don't want to bring up the pumpkins. No, because I was like, I'll talk about my cancel piece, but we can't talk about pumpkins. Because if you've ever been to my stand-up comedy in Fun and Slutty, I didn't talk about the pumpkins because I'd processed it by then. But in Imaginary Living Room Olympian, like 30 minutes of that show was like dedicated to pumpkins. So we don't want to go back to them. Well, I will. I just, I don't want to go into like the 30 minute spiel. Basically, there is these like fucking things in Texas called squash boravine moths. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure you don't have them in England.

33:12I don't, I don't know. I called them like the Kellyanne Conway of insects because they were invasive and they like try to ruin your life. and so basically what these fucking moths do they lay their evil babies on the vines of your pumpkins and then they hatch their fucking eggs in these vines and then they eat the vine like they eat their way out of your so they murder like so you can have like the biggest most gorgeous pumpkins like so thriving so healthy and then like in three or four days everything's just dead like the pumpkin will still be there but like the vines and the leaves no even the inside of the pumpkin's fine but like the vines and the leaves like die and it's like incurable It's like if you catch it early enough, you can take this like pesticide and you can put it in a literal syringe.

33:55And then you can like go outside at night and take a flashlight and shine on the vines and find the little like babies. And then you can stab them in the head and shoot up the vine. Did you do this? Yes. How did that feel? It felt overwhelming because it was really already too far gone based off of like what the gardening expert at the store told us. But I still wanted to try because they are my babies. There were six pumpkins Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, excuse me. We didn't have a Saturday cause Saturday like rotted off. Um, but yeah, so we had to harvest our pumpkins in July that year.

34:27And then when we did everyone on Instagram was like, Oh, like, you know, you're supposed to harvest your pumpkins in the fall. And like for someone to try to break, you know, a rage issue piece on me when I literally told hundreds of people to go fuck themselves and die twice on that post alone. I mean, seriously, like I've been really open about my anger. Like I don't fucking bring up my dead pumpkins, you know? Okay, so. But not then, not now, just then. This is really important. And if you see someone harvesting their pumpkins early in America. Give them a break. They got squash boravine moth and it's literally incurable and it's like the worst, saddest thing.

35:03I would like to know about the rest of the garden. Has anywhere else been more... Fruitful and consistent? Yes, yes. So like, but I just don't have the same attachment to them as like pineapples and pumpkins. It was a saga. Who says pineapple? Lol. Watermelon and pumpkins were like my girls. For like 2020, 2021, I just got this like really feral attachment to like those melons. Like I just, and squashes. Like those two. Then I went through a major ghost pepper phase, which I still. A what, what? Ghost pepper. What's a ghost pepper? There's like really hot ass peppers. And they're so good. Okay.

35:36They're just like really spicy. Ooh, nice. They're like really spicy. And they have like an interesting shape. They're like a cool shape. Okay. Like what color? They're red, yellow, or orange. Okay. And they're really pretty. And they're spicy. Very spicy. Nice. Like incredibly spicy. And then, oh my gosh, you're working so hard over there. Thank you, mom. This is delicious. Is it nice? Mm-hmm. Like, isn't it so pretty? Yeah, it looks like mom, you know, picked it from her garden. All the radishes. No, she didn't. Did you not? No. I'd believe it if you had. Alice, do you want some salad? It's really delicious, mom.

36:09It's very light. I told you you would like it. It's good, isn't it? Light delicious. Cool scandy salmon. I like it, Mum. Do you like the horseradish or something? Is this what this is? Yeah. So delish.

36:30The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

37:10Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction. But there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

37:37Can we ask about his last supper? Yeah, we could. Starter, main, pud, drink of choice. Jessie, do you want some more salad? Does anybody want some salad? Because there's a big bowl for me. That was very delicious. I'll have a little bit more. Good. Right. Well, the drink is vodka martini with a twist. Very dry, but I want it in like a big gulp. Like I want it like in a 32 ounce. Like I want it big. I don't want like a martini glass. I want fucking like American extra large. They have in Los Vegas. Yes. You want like a pitcher. Yes, I want a pitcher. They have the yards of things. But I don't want like a blended ice drink.

38:13I want like a straight up extra cold vodka martini. No ice. Like just shaken very cold. But I want the ice drink. I was just like literally. Where's the best one you've ever had? Well, actually, Dean Street Townhouse has like a stunning martini. But it also has a really good vodka martini. Is, um, what's that? Sea containers. That bar on top of sea containers. You need to move to Britain. I know. I love it here. You love it. Then for an appetizer, half raw oysters and like half oysters Rockefeller. What's a Rockefeller oyster? It's like baked oyster with like all this like shit in it. It's really good.

38:45It's really interesting that you choose that, but then you didn't like your Funyuns on your fucking creamy chicken. Well, yeah, I like that. Like, well, because it was very like, but like, this is very like gorge. Yeah. For a main dinner. Yeah. It's either like chicken fajitas or like carbonara. or like a vodka like that pennella vodka like that red sauce like that Gigi pasta yes like that red like vodka one Fuseli vodka yeah but then for dessert this is easy no questions asked definitely gorgeous sticky toffee pudding oh my gosh do they have that in America? no I was so deprived and now I've had last night I had it at Dean Street Townhouse the day before that I had it at just like Fish Place in Soho I wish I knew that Scott's what was the name of it Teresa?

39:31JT They have like huge fucking portions of sticky toffee pudding. It's like the whole plate. It's like a huge rectangle. It's not like some like little idiot girl, like this tiny little girl. It's like, who wants this? It's this like huge sticky toffee pudding. It's like bigger than the plate. Oh, where is it? It's so good. In Soho? Yeah, it's like fish restaurant. It's like seafood. I'm like literally sweating thinking about it. Oh, that sounds very good. I wish you'd told me I could have made that. No, don't. Actually, lunchtime is not good for sticky toffee. It's so heavy. Yeah. Yeah. So, wow, you were so decisive.

40:02That was like bang, bang, bang. I know. Really? I love that. I wanted to know, do you think you've got good table manners? No. Really? Yeah. I eat really loud. I like put my elbows on the table. I like chew with my mouth open. I'm a hot mess. Yeah. I think you're perfectly fine. That's nice. I didn't put my napkin on my lap. Look at me. I'm a fucking mess. Who would you like to have if you had a dinner party? Who would you like to have? Who would you invite? Are they alive or dead? It doesn't matter. We can have them all. Well, after becoming fame, I like feel like I don't like I like get weirder about like being like, oh, they're like dead.

40:39It's like, oh, my God, their families and their people. But this one, like never. I'm never over it is like definitely Princess Diana and Whitney Houston. Oh, really? Yeah. Good choice. Good choice. Yeah. Which is your favorite Whitney song? Okay. This is like really controversial, but I was vibing the fuck out of her comeback album. I love Million Dollar Bill. Me too. Yes. Fantastic. My favorite. And I also love I Look To You. Do you want to hear a really funny story about I Look To You? Go on. Okay, so when I was in rehab, that album had just come out, but she hadn't passed away. And I would go, I'd wake up in the morning and I'd make all this like Folgers coffee.

41:12And then I would go in the backyard of this rehab and I'd be singing like I Look To You by myself at like 6.30 in the morning. But like not very loud because it was like 6.30 in the morning. So I'd just be like, I look to you, I look to you. And then this one day I was singing and this lady across the fence, like next door to us, I just heard this lady be like, yeah boy you better sing that song come on sing that song and i was like oh my god thanks and then i kept singing then like four people started clapping and i was like i'm gonna have an audience so then because like and then like in rehab like you only leave rehab to like go to meetings you know it's like you have to like all go together so we were like i was like who lives next door to us like the next time we left the house i went outside and i looked and it was like this house it was like a halfway house for like black veteran women um and so like i had just been like singing Whitney Houston with like my bad voice and like just like waking them up in like the morning.

42:03I love that. They were really sweet. Like yeah girl you better sing that song but it didn't sound good so I just like really loved them for like for cheering me on even though it didn't sound good. So you wouldn't sing I Will Always Love You? I mean I am not totally delusional. I could keep up with Whitney's like range a little bit more towards Yeah but not that. Yeah like not at the peak honey. Not that note. But I used to like really try to hit that note in the car but I was more just proud if I could hold it that long. Yeah. You know, you'd be able to answer this. What? I have this disease where I can't harmonize.

42:33Like, I'll think I'm harmonizing, but then, like, the person I'm with is, like, that's the melody. And then I'm like, okay, I'll do it again. Does that mean you sing out of tune, darling? No, it's like I'm, like, too in tune. Like, I can only do the melody. I, like, can't do harmony. But you must know how to do harmonies because you can probably do anything. I'm obsessed with harmonies. And you sing your own harmonies. But I do harmonies to, like, so, like, the kids will be playing Imagine Dragons or Taylor in the car. And I'll be doing the harmony. And I know it annoys them. Oh, I love that. It's so annoying for them.

43:01I think I finally got the harmony on this one Taylor song. I did it by myself on Queen. Okay, let's try it. How's it go? Give me the original. She says, it's like, The rain came pouring down when I was drowned. And that's when I could finally breathe. Okay, so that's the lead. Yeah. And then what's the harm? But then my harm comes on the next sentence. Okay. The rain. But will you just tell me if this is a harmony? Okay. Because I can't tell. Okay. But we have to do her version. Clean Taylor's version. We got this. Not on our watch. Scooter.

43:40I can't look at you when I do it. Okay. Okay.

43:45In the morning. That's a harmony. Was it? That's literally that word. I could only do that word. I was in the bathtub and I didn't. And I was like, I was like, no, I literally, I think I heard the buzz like in my pussy, like my pussy like, and like vibrated. Like I got like the, and then so then I called my best friend cause she's a singer and I was like, Oh my God, is this a harmony? And then she was like, I can't tell because she like, that was a harmony. It was right. Yeah. I really hit it so well in front of you. I mean, my whole life was just like, I was like, do you see how bad I'm sweating?

44:21I was like, Oh my God. I was just like, is this going to happen? And then I did it. You did it. You slayed the fuck out of that harmony. There's only like certain notes. You did two notes. Oh yeah, two. That's great. Yeah. Are you ready for some pudding? Sure. He might not like this now. I'm going to love the shit out of it. You don't even know. What is it? It's summer pudding, which is very British. I love that. Well, you'll wait and see if you like it. It's like berries and bread. I love berries and bread. That makes it sound so fludgy shit.

44:59God, that looks so fucking good. I can't stand it. Okay, right. Should we try this? Yes. Okay. Ugh. Ooh. Little berry surprise inside, mum. What? I like that. Mmm. This is very nice, mum. It's so delicious. I can't get over it. Why were you at the White House? To meet with Vice President Kamala Harris. Is she fabulous? She was amazing. but really I was talking about like I'm really passionate about like HIV treatment and prevention and awareness and also Planned Parenthood and reproductive freedom and reproductive health care access so that's really what and we're also there to celebrate Queer Eye's 20th anniversary but I also just like it's so important for me I've been living with HIV for over 10 years and it's just so important for me to talk with our leaders about access to health care and like make sure that it just stays top of mind but the vice president is a busy woman she's got a lot to do like who else was there on the day that you were there?

45:54It was me, Carson, and Jay, and then Karamo, and then the two creators of the show. And the vice president. It was very casual. Did you eat well? We didn't eat with her. They didn't give you snacks? Okay, actually, interestingly, after we met with her they did take us on a tour of the White House and we got to go to where people go to get their snacks. And? What did you get? I got this really good cookie and water. but it was a very good homemade cookie. Homemade cookie. Yeah, it was like giving like caramel pretzel chunks. It was really good. Do you think that's her or Joe's choice? I don't know if the president sets like the menu.

46:38I feel like he... I feel like Joe would be like... Do you think he doesn't even live there? Yeah, I think he does on the week, during the week. Maybe he goes like to Delaware on the weekends. Can you tell me a nostalgic taste from, this doesn't have to be a childhood, but something that can transport you back somewhere? Pop-tarts. Pop-tarts. Brown sugar cinnamon pop-tarts. Childhood comfort. After a day at school or before school? Before and after. Why limit yourself? I didn't struggle with childhood obesity for nothing. You know, I really loved to eat pop-tarts as if they were running away from me.

47:18They're so tasty. They are tasty. The brown sugar cinnamon ones especially. I don't know if I've had that. I think we only have the strawberry and the chocolate on this side of the pan. Did we have them? Yeah, you'd get them sometimes. You've been such a lot of fun and you're just wonderful. Thanks for having me. And we really thank you for closing our season with a bang. I didn't even know it was the season finale. Season finale. I'm glad I didn't know before because that would have been too much pressure. When you said, when you were like, you've been a lot. I just thought you were going to stop.

47:50But also, thank you for the most delicious lunch ever, Queen. That was so gorgeous. Such a pleasure. And this berry pooch. What do you think it's like? I love it. What do you like it? I love it. I don't like it, I love it.

48:17what a way to close the series just gorgeous gorgeous funny knows themselves was very open and honest i really appreciated that really warm really good fun and said queen so brilliantly to you. I don't think you were that keen on my meal. I really like the salmon. You didn't like the summer pudding? I do like, I mean, I ate it all, obviously. It was really nice. I just find it odd to have, like, it's like white bread with berries. It just kind of freaks me out. I think it's really clever because it's so light. It was really delicious. I absolutely loved that lunch. That salmon's good, isn't it?

48:57Very good. It's dead easy as well. Thank you, Jonathan, for coming on. you can listen to Getting Curious which is Jonathan's podcast and we just did a segment for his part in it and it's called Pretty Curious which was very fun thank you to everyone that's listened to this season it's been really fun we've had amazing guests we've had the most fabulous guests this year but thank you so much for listening and we will see you very very soon

49:51We'll be right back.

50:01satisfaction. But there's only one Zin. Check out Zin.com slash find to find Zin at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.