Jordan Stephens

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1:47Hello and welcome to Table Nellers. We're in a little green room. This is a special episode. Well, don't talk about the green room. talk about the magnificent place that we're really in, darling. OK, well, why don't you, Lenny, because you are so desperate to be here. That's very mean. We're actually at the British Library. Which I feel really embarrassed to say I've never been to before. Neither have I. Oh. But we are sitting opposite the T.S. Eliot Jane Austen room. And I think we're in the Chaucer room right now. Never was the biggest fan of Chaucer at uni. Did you not like him, darling? Oof, no.

2:22but it's a wonderful thing to be a part of. We are part of the food season at the British Library and we're doing a live podcast which we haven't done in ages. Yes. And we have the most perfect guest for this occasion. Because he's just written a book. Well no, well yes, I guess that is quite, yes. But also he's just a star. He's a performer, he's hosted, he's a writer, he's a talker, he's a thinker. So we could hand over the microphones to him and he could host it. I'm expecting him to go full kind of, yeah. Full on. We've got Jordan Stephens. I've known Jordan for, God, like 12 years, maybe.

2:56We were signed to the same record label. Rizzle Kicks were huge. And he has never changed. He's always been the same person. He's written the most captivating book. Couldn't put it down. It was phenomenal. I'm so proud of him. I'm so impressed. It's really good. It's so honest. And it's so authentically him. And he writes really well. He writes brilliantly. He has his own tone. I mean, it's Jordan, but it's also really beautiful. And it covers his struggle with ADHD, with relationships, with addiction. I mean, he can talk for Britain and he's amazing and he's bright and fabulous and warm. And I can't wait for you to meet him, Mum, really.

3:40And I think we're going to have quite a fun time. Sounds good, darling. Jordan Stephens coming up for a British Library food season live special on a Friday night.

3:55Thank you.

4:16Hi, guys. Can you hear us? Is that me projecting? That's a mic, isn't it? Can you hear us? Great. Yeah, yeah. How are you? Just get your hi Lenny's out of the way now. Just do it. Just do it. Like, it'll feel good. We haven't done one of these for a while. Thank you for being here. It's a pleasure to be at the British Library. It's the first time I've been here. Is that really bad? How many times have you been here? Any of you? Oh, wow. We're all Philistines. Okay, great. So, Lenny, how many times have you been here? It's my first time. But I'm very... Stop it. I know, I know. I know, you all think that Lenny goes to the theatre every week, reads a book every second.

4:56But you've never invited me before. Also, thank you so much, Miele. We're all getting free fridges and dishwashers. Oh, yeah. So much. No, so listen, we are going to do the podcast. We're going to do it live. It's going to be very chaotic, probably. But you'll forgive us, because I believe you probably listened to the podcast and that's how it's going to go. Do you want to talk about the food, darling? I think that's your way of directing me to. So, yeah, let's do it. No, no, I just wonder. No, I do want to talk about it. You talk about it, Lenny. Do you want to carry on chatting with the audience?

5:28No, you... I think that means Lenny wants to talk about the food. So, let's go. What have you made, darling? Why are you being so polite? I'm just going to have a glass of wine and I'll calm down. OK, sorry, that's what I need. Where is it? I think it's there, so we're fine. Do you want red or white? White, please. OK. Are you drinking? Is everybody else drinking? Yeah. Oh, thank God for that. It's Friday night, Jess. Thank you. Are you having anything? I'm actually not going to, but I'm going to remain slightly more professional. Good job. So what have we got on the table, Mum? So we've got some fabulous nuts that you've made a la Otter Lenghi.

6:08Yes. You know those ones that you get in the hamper? And they're delicious. They're actually very easy to make. Yo, Tam, you're great. but they are very easy, so you can all make them at home. Well, I've made his burnt aubergine dip. Mutabal. Right. And I had to make it twice, because I misread how much pomegranate molasses, and I put two big tablespoons, and it looked like mud. So I had to make it again. So hopefully it's a bit better. And you've made... Where is it? The butter bean. It's the butter bean dip. We've got a soda bread that we made. At Leaves. Leaves. Yeah. It was put in the freezer, so it's fresh.

6:46it hasn't been like as if you listened to the podcast this week we were talking about so it isn't it's not full of preservative it's actually just been the freezer how hard do you think it is i don't know hold on i don't know if we can oh that sounds yeah well we'll see maybe try maybe try then we've got some cheese and we've just got bits and bobs because we've learned from doing podcasts before that when did we try and like i think oh we did chicken soup at one and it was a nightmare wasn't it we had to give it away yeah we had to give it away um alas mum hasn't made chicken soup tonight however if there's any nuts left over you can all just everyone can have everything yeah um we are so thrilled to have this guest on um you all know him no doubt his name's jordan stevens and um he i've known him for over 10 years i think we were on the same record label island records and i remember the rizzle kicks were coming up and well they were up and I think I was getting signed and we were on a Brits table together um and I've never like I remember being terrified of the music industry and seeing Jordan speaking to the head honcho Darkus and him having like a really intense chat with him and I was like oh what you're allowed to do that with the presidents and I was like thank you Jordan and then the rest is history and then I left Ireland so there you go um but um but no uh Jordan is a friend he's amazing his book is phenomenal I text him I got it on Wednesday and I was like babe I'm so sorry I may just not be able to get through it all in time I couldn't put it down it's called avoidance drugs heartbreak and dogs ADHD and it is amazing um it covers so much, which we're going to talk about.

8:32But I'm so proud of him. He has remained exactly the same. He's an absolute superstar. And he's here now. Jordan Stevens.

8:46Do you remember that chat with Darkus at the table? It was funny because when you said there, he hasn't changed. I thought, I hope I have changed slightly. Just because at that era, I was not But, yeah, do I remember talking to, was it at the Brit Awards? It was at the Brit Awards. We were on the same table. I think you were up for one. Were you performing? If I was nominated for an award, I was 100 % off my face. I can't remember shit. OK. Well, you had such authority. And I was like, well, I'm just going to do it the Jordan Stevens way. Yeah, I was moaning at him. I mean, I think when I was younger, I, no one could really tell me anything, for better or for worse, you know what I mean?

9:27And I think, like, I have serious authority issues, may or may not still have those. And I think at the time, obviously, I was just trying to figure out the structure and attack it. How old were you? We got signed at 19. That's crazy. Yeah. So is that when you met Jesse? Yeah, I would have been 20. You were a bit old, yeah. 2021 for the first time, yeah. And then we were only around for like another three or four years before we were like, what is going on? And then put it on ice. But yeah. Did you have a good time being in the Rizzle Kids? Yeah. Is it a blur? Yes. Yeah, like quite overwhelmingly so actually, which is something I talk about in a book a little bit, where I really felt as though in those early years in my life, all those early years especially in the music industry and notoriety, I felt like I was living from the neck up.

10:21so I can only, I can remember snippets but I can't feel a lot of things. Like I can feel things now, I feel memories more. I can kind of remember smells and stuff but like, it's a weird thing to say. Come on, give me a proof. They're quite sensory. I can remember the smell of people. Which people, Jordan? I don't know, there's no way out of that. But, yeah, you know, one way of putting it was, like, I had a period of time, I think, where a version of me was dying, I felt, in my late 20s. And when I was going through that time, I momentarily detached from the previous version of myself that had experienced rizzle kicks.

11:08And I remember that because I was in quite an intense situation in all types of parts of my life. And I went out and people were coming up to me and being like, other musicians, other artists at this event were like, oh, what's going on? Oh, there's a bunch of celebrities here. And I remember being taken aback by the fact these people were referring to me as kind of like a celebrity or something. And then I saw a picture of an artist performing at Hammersmith Apollo. And I remember texting Harley and saying... I know that. Just checking. I remember texting him and being like, damn, man, I can't believe we never played Hammersmith.

11:47and he was like, we literally did, and then sent me all the pictures. Yeah, and I was like, four. I have to go back to therapy. But it's all come back to me now, and in the last two, three years where I've really felt more stable in my life, oh, man, I'm so proud of myself, and I'm so proud of what we achieved, and I've leaned into different philosophies, like game theory, for example, where I remember that as a young boy, my dream was to have a platinum-selling album. That was my dream. but because of the nature of and pressure as you'll know of the industry of expectation of a you know i guess like hyper individual society the second i achieved that i was looking for the next goal oh i know do i mean the goalposts are moving so i spent four or five years thinking why aren't i doing this why aren't we crossing over to america why aren't me i was like no i completed the game the game i set for myself when i was 16 i completed and i didn't ever allow myself to just sit in that reality and go, actually, well done.

12:47Do you sit in that reality much better now? Yeah, I completed it. Completed music.

12:54Everything's bonus rounds now. You completed music too. Do you not feel like that? I had a similar experience, and this is not all going to be about music and me and John trying to get over the trauma of the music industry, I promise you. No, but I definitely, when I changed a certain management and they were so optimistic, and they were like, this is really good. And I'd be like, yeah, but. And they'd be like, no, this is really good. And you'd be like, oh, yeah, I should just actually sit in this for a bit and actually enjoy it. And I've started to appreciate it a bit more. I want to talk about one more thing about Rizzle Kicks.

13:28You hosting Nevermind the Buzzcots, did anyone watch that? Do you remember? It was horrendous. You were fantastic. So explain it. Explain what was going on. Oh, OK. Or I can if you want. I'm proud of this moment only because now when they do the highlight reels of Buzzcocks, we're definitely in there. Like, top five. And, like, that's, again, completed it. Buzzcocks. Yeah. And how old were you when you were presenting Buzzcocks? 23 or something. And how you dealt with a man-child. Yeah, so, for context, did you watch it, Lenny? Have you ever watched Buzzcocks? I have watched it once. Okay. Or twice.

14:08Not a fan, though. Is that the one where they have the people and you have to guess who the old timers are? That's on it, yes. That's one of the ID breaks. It's so sad and cruel. It can be cruel. Yeah. Because no one recognises the, they were like fabulous pop stars. And then they bring these old men on. Old men. And they look like they've just bought them off the streets. And then the one that's the least likely. This is the industry we're talking about. Yeah, the least likely one is the one. This is what we're trying to avoid. Yeah, okay. Me and George will be in the line-off. Yeah, we're trying to avoid this shit, Lenny.

14:39Yeah, you will. Oh, my goodness me. Do you remember Jessie Ware? No, don't you? The only reason Mum started this podcast is she went, we'll get you closer to that this morning presenting job. I was helping her. That is on the horizon. It may be. So tell us about it. Okay, so listen. So basically, we did at Buzzcocks, we were hosting it, which is wild, yeah. They were doing guest presenters for that series. So who were the main people on each team? We had Phil Jupiter on the right. And then Noel Fielding on the left. And he had Laura Whitmore with him. Yeah, Laura Whitmore. And Huey Morgan. And then there was another singer.

15:17But anyway, the point was, Huey Morgan, he is part of Fun, Love & Criminals, a band who are great, by the way. When I was a kid, loved Fun, Love & Criminals, Scooby Snacks. And does a really good six music. Stick them up punkers to Fun, Love & Criminals. We actually tried to get him on a song prior to this whole thing. I was a public fan of Fun, Love & Criminals. Did he know this? Yeah, I think so. The thing was, I think he's been on it like nine times. He was kind of disillusioned from being on there. I guess he was just doing it for the money, I don't know. But he had got pretty stoned and he had drunk a lot.

15:46Right. He was drinking a lot, to the point where they refused to refill his cup. This is the thing that they don't... Oh, my God, that's going to happen to me soon. So what... Well, what ended up happening was, we were doing a round, the final round in Buscock, very famous. Someone says a couple of lines of a song. the idea is that the people playing the game say the finishing lines they get a point obviously if the guest is on the show we incorporate some of their own music right Huey for whatever reason was fuming that he had to regurgitate his own lyrics which I thought was mad because he's been on the show so many times but his point was I've been on the show so many times why am I doing this and I'm like well you've agreed to be on a fucking show doesn't make any So we were caught in this loop.

16:34And this was actually happening also in the rounds in between. He was mumbling a lot in my ear. Is it live? No, it's a prerecord. So he was like shit talking to you. He wasn't shit talking to me. He was just mumbling like he was slightly unhinged. He was just mumbling a bit. But like I say, I'm literally a fan of him. And so I was a little bit... So did you put your arm around him? No, what happened was we had an argument. We had a bit of back and forth. I felt like you dealt with it really well, by the way. When you talk about dealing with anger and things like this in this book, I looked at that and I was like, you're a young man.

17:04Yeah. And this bloke is being such a prick. And you are handling it so well, you and Harley. And I was so impressed. Yeah. Well, the actual, I can tell you the real reason why. Yeah, why? So what actually happened, basically, is that we did this round. We had a little back and forth. We got the upper hand, kind of, I guess. And then as the round finished, he stood up and he smashed his mug and then stormed off. His buzzcocks mug. His buzzcocks. Devastated. Yeah. Yeah, his Buzzcocks mug, Lenny. And then we... Phil Jupiter's was fuming, because it was actually just genuinely... It nearly got Laura.

17:40And it got you. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know, I picked a piece up off the floor and put it in my hair. It was very good. And said that, you know. I was like, what are you doing? And then Noel and the other comedian just completely took it to another level where they were, like, touching their mug. And it was funny. We took a bit to the mick out of him. But he's still off. He can't... And then he came back, which was kind of weird. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it was a mess. But great telly. And the reason why, it's funny, because we get asked this a lot, how did you deal with someone like that? I have to send a shout out to my mate Ryan that I had growing up.

18:10At that point, me and Harlan spent so much time around our friend Ryan, who has done... I can't explain to you the amount of things this guy has done. He's pushed the limits of what's considered to be an average approach to life so far. so far that like nothing Harley and I are just like a musician getting upset in a show is just nowhere I've watched Ryan like straight naked and run in front of a car for no reason before or I've seen him I don't even want to say I've seen him do some wild shit so like you know people yeah I've seen him like I've seen him like poo in a bag I can throw it at his little brother.

18:57Oh, my God. What? It's really awful. You were like, Hughie Morgan's... I was like, him smashing a mug. I was like, it's not that deep. In the grand scheme of things, like, at least, at least he's not defecating. That's amazing. However, like, to now move on to television, good television. Yeah. You had a shocker. Mm-hmm. And I want to know where that was during this book. Okay. I watched that island thing. What was it called? Oh, my God. And I felt... Why are you bringing this up? No, we don't have to talk about it that much because I know you and I love you. No, but I know... Not you. It's the show.

19:38I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, go on. Please. Because I kind of feel the need to defend you on this. Please. It was one of those survival TV shows. Called? Was it Bear Grylls? I don't know. It was the island. The island. And that shit seemed brutal. And what they did was zone in on Jordan they implied that Jordan wasn't like a team player and that he was a bit huffy and stuff and you left. Yeah. I didn't even do that. No, I have no doubt. But for me, who knew you and didn't know you very well, but I was just like, this seems really unusual. Well, yes, correct. And so you've kind of been the highs and the lows of television.

20:18Oh my God, that scarred me. I'm so sorry. From that point, I was like, oh wow, TV can be seriously produced. Genuinely, either me or even sometimes me and Harley will get offered a lot of different television shows to do and that is the main reason I say no to 90 % of them because... Same as me. You've got to have editorial control. But genuinely... They've asked us on Gogglebox and she's like, no. They're editing to make you look like an idiot. Google box might be all right. No, she's not in charge of the edit. No, no, no. You don't want to know. Shit's going to go down. No, no, but listen, I understand, because I think what it was, was I always knew there was going to be a bit of editing.

21:03And I know that sometimes I get mismatched on telly. Like, my emotions on telly aren't matched. How people view my emotions aren't a great reflection of how I'm feeling. I've had that in shows before, just like a mismatch. But this was honestly another level, to the point where I was like, I just couldn't believe that it was legal to do, I'm making it sound a lot more extreme than it was, but just to be clear, it would be things like, they basically ran a story within the context of this whole show. They decided people had different journeys. This is what I've realised, the story, the narrative they spread.

21:36And for me, they decided that my journey was that I was lazy, like a lazy camp member, which was wild because in real life I had done a lot of work in that camp in terms of finding things. I'd walked for miles and miles to find campsites and bring about coconuts i'd assemble the team to find water how old were you i was like 27 six or seven but they what they did in the edit was they removed the idea of chronology which is crazy so so they removed the idea of time and they were using excerpts of sentences of people have said over the course of two and a half weeks to tie it into one moment and then contextualize that moment with an up with a moment that wasn't anything to do with it so there was one moment where I expressed a distaste about, like, or, like, I questioned cleaning something in a campsite.

22:24That was it, one moment. Then they fed in these images of me when I had water poisoning. So I was, like, on the beach, like, completely incapacitated and, like, fucking shitting myself. And they were, like, look, so lazy. Lying, having a lie down. Right. And then they were cutting in, like, there's one interview they cut in talking about me. I wasn't even on the island. I wasn't even there. And what was so mad was, like, Like, the person who's making the comments in the interview is wearing my headband, because I'd given it to them as I left. Oh, that is wicked. Yeah, I know. And I'm saying, but it's about me.

22:55I'm not even fucking there. And also, when I left, I left because I was like, this shit's boring. And because... And the food wasn't great. And also because it was like, I just suddenly had this moment where I was like, I felt as though... I suddenly realised that there was a lot of people putting themselves through the ringer for television. And look, we were getting paid, fair enough. but I was sat there going like this is still a TV show and actually if we were really trying to get off this island, I'm telling you for a fact about three or four boats went past, we'd have flagged them down and I'd be off right, so I'm thinking, and people are sat there going oh you know I could, I'd kill for a burger, or I'd kill for a strawberry milkshake, and I got to the point where I was like mate, you can just go if you want like what's stopping you, and someone went nah Jordan, this is what killed it for me well that's about authority issues right someone went, no Jordan, you're really going to regret it if you go, and I'm like, do you know how many things I regret?

23:51Like you think I care about regret? Hello? I'll see you in a bit and there were actually, you know the sad thing is, he told me this by the way the producer told me this, I bumped into this producer at an art gallery wanky and I confronted him and I was like, dude, what the fuck was that? like why did you run that whole story? that I was lazy, you took away the water journey, the camp, and he went, oh, you know, telly's telly. And I did it because the story worked. Did you have to pay your feedback? No. I got like 50%. Yeah, I sorted that out. Yeah. That's what I'd be worried about. That was half the...

24:29Also, mathematically, it made sense to go. But listen, they did... LAUGHTER But they did make decisions that were not for the good of the people on that island. And I'm not sure how much people should put themselves through for the sake of television. Darling, can I ask you, where did it all begin? Where are you born and where? Where does my life begin? Yeah, we're going to put it in context. Yes. What's London? I was born in Whitton Hospital, yeah, in Archway, and raised in Leesden, moved to Brighton when I was 10. What was Brighton like? Brighton's cool. Anyone from Brighton? No way. OK. Yeah, Brighton's cool.

25:09It was cool for the time, and it allowed me to express myself maybe more... So you went to school there? Secondary school I went to in Brighton. And what was a memorable dish at the dinner table with you and your mum? My mum is a very good cook. I have to give my mum credit. Yeah, she's got a great... She's very free with her choice of spices. She kind of adds things. But she would make, like, just her... We were vegetarian until I was about 15. Really? She used to use... Poor thing. How many vegetarians do we have in the audience? All right. So my mum used to love using corn a lot. Corn? Corn.

25:51Is that banned, that word? Is that right? No. I don't know. So she would make a great spaghetti bolognese with this corn, but because we didn't have a lot of money, my mum would often stockpile dishes that we could eat throughout the week. So obviously you could make a shit ton of... you know, of like pasta sauce. And then... Was she working? Yeah, my mum would work sometimes. So when was the moment where she introduced you to the oysters? Because that's in the book. The oysters thing is because my... So, obviously, my mum's white and my dad is black. Both born in London, but my grandparents, my black grandparents are Guyanese.

26:28Oh, from Guyana. Guyana. And my mum's, I guess, whatever, white, I mean, Anglo-Saxon. English, British, what is that? What is it? What is it but a mesh of empire? But like my Bolting, so one cool fact about me actually, which I don't talk about much at all, is that my grandfather is a man called John Bolting. He's part of the Bolting brothers who were incredibly respected directors. Yes, Hayley Mills married one of them. Yes, yeah. So that's my grandfather, John Bolting, not the one at Hayley Mills. Wow. And yeah, they made like, I'm alright Jack. They gave Richard Attenborough his first lead role in Brighton Rock, the original Brighton Rock.

27:08Wow. So that meant I got to meet David Attenborough when I was like seven or eight. And I swear to God, it was at someone's birthday. I think it was Richard Attenborough's birthday. And like he said he was... Have you met him before? David? Yeah. No. Have you met David Attenborough? No. Has anyone met David Attenborough? I'd love... Oh my, of course she works in the bloody... Get me the Roman Brite. Do you work in the library? I need the mic. His voice is like... It was like I was in the wild. Is it amazing? Because it was like... He was commentating on you. I literally went up to him and said, Oh my God, it's David Ackerman.

27:46I've got to say hi. And he went, Hello, Jordan. He goes, Have you tried the chocolate fountain? I was like, Dude, that's crazy, man. I did try the chocolate fountain. You didn't? I did. You did? There was one. That's fabulous. But, yeah, sorry. Did you want to... I want to get the mic just in case anybody wants to get involved here, but I don't know where Alice is. Oh, it's in the back. Oh, there. Just in case, you know, you want to join in on this conversation. But my Bolting family, so that side of my family that I kind of... I mean, that was a very complex side to my family because they were identical twins, the Bolting brothers, and they married, like, four times.

28:25So I have this like really wild, eclectic kind of offshoot family. And some of them, you know, pride themselves on, you know, like eating oysters and shit like that. So when I was a kid, they like made me try oysters when I was like, I don't know, fucking eight or something. So a vegetarian that then tries oysters, it's quite... Sorry, pesky. Oh, you're a pescater. Yeah, I could eat fish. That's very different to being a vegetarian. Well, they're the vegetables of the sea, aren't they? Yeah. Are you still a pesky now? No, I eat chicken as well. But I've got my own issues. We just had Anando's backstage.

29:00I've got my own... He eats chicken. I've got my own issues of chicken that I'm going to deal with another day. OK. Do you want to share it with the group? No, it's too deep. OK. Does your dad cook? Does my dad cook? No. He does not. And he fucking should. Because you get all the Guyanese... What about your Guyanese sign? Lenny, you know what? I'll give him my dad's number. Give him a ring after this. Ask him what he knows about Guyanese food. I'll save you the trouble. Nothing. Nothing. The man can barely make peanut butter on fucking toast. You're sitting eating corn? Yeah. Bolognese around the...

29:34Yeah, not just dry corn. So who's there? It's just me and my mum mostly. Just you and your mum? Yeah, my dad was around. Brother or sister? No. Until recently. I've got two half-brothers recently. But, no, me and my mum mainly, she made a lot of great food. I mean, I'd have friends over and we had... My cousin lived in Brighton, my cousin Sita, who I love, and her mum, my mum's sister, Jodie. And Jodie, also a great cook. A lot of world food with Jodie. She worked in music management, and she looked after some incredible groups that would play at, like, WOMAD Festival, like the Bundy Boys and stuff like that.

30:10So when you were in Rizzle Kicks, what was on your rider? We actually had a whole chicken. That was one, for the start of it. Rotisserie? Yeah, something like that. I don't know. Lovely. But the rider thing is hard to like. That's all I can remember really from the rider, because what else do you really... Jessie's is so boring. Really? It's just because you're paying for it. Healthy eating. You're what? Oh, babe, you don't remember that. We're paying for the rider. Yes, babes. All within the budget. I didn't fucking know that. Yeah. Healthy eating is Jessie's. Well, when we were younger, we were all pissheads, so we would just spend it all on Disarona, to be honest.

30:47But as we got older... How did you mix your Disarona? Did you just have it to eat? Jesse, I took the bottle to the club and it was finished. I mean, it's delicious. It's so sweet. So sweet, Jesse. It's embarrassing. Honestly, fuck that. Are you a good cook? There's some dips here. I have the potential to be a good cook. I have the potential. I think my mum should have maybe... My mum is very particular. so I think like in terms of encouraging me to learn how to cook I think because she likes things in a particular way I don't know, making my mum and dad sound quite bad Your mum sounds fab Yeah right, so she didn't teach me enough about the basics of cooking Oh god, that's enough

31:38I won't care what you say Yeah, you know what I mean But no, I'm quite free I'll try things I'm very experimental. If I like certain foods, I can imagine things tasting in a certain way and I'll just fucking throw it. And do you like George Michael playing in the background? Okay, so listen, I'm sorry that this has come up, Jordan. There's no context for this, Lenny. Firstly, does anyone mind if I reapply my red lip? This is a fucker. Mum said to make an effort, so I did a red lip. And now I realise there's such a pain in the arse because they just... It wipes away. So I'm just going to... I'm sorry.

32:13Mum always said it was uncouth to put your lipstick on at the dinner table, but fuck it. It's not unless you're Marilyn Monroe or something. OK, fine. Right, OK. Sorry, now we can talk. So we were just doing a little thing backstage and Jordan let slip that he really doesn't like saxophone... We were talking about reverb. Yeah. He went, yeah, but I just can't... I can't do it with saxophone. He can't listen to Careless Whispers solo, the saxophone solo, or Baker Street. Look. It makes him go funny. I have an irrational fear of the saxophone solo in Careless Finsborough and Baker Street. And I wish I didn't, guys.

32:57Tell everyone what happened when George Michael died. Yeah, it was fucking hell.

33:05I'd be like, I was heartbroken, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, you know, the Christmas, yeah, that's great. And then, And I stick next one and I'm like... But look, I get it. I understand that it's a good song. Is that why you did a song called Down With The Trumpets Instead? No, no. I like saxophones. Listen, I like saxophones. Okay. There's an era, I don't know why in the 80s, everyone was putting a lot of reverb. Kenny, what's his face? I don't know, man. They're just putting a lot of reverb on these fucking saxophones. And they make me feel like I'm underneath a single streetlight, in a cobbled street, in the rain.

33:40Sounds fabulous. With an awful haircut. And I'm just like trying to get over, a really shallow relationship that for some reason has had a massive impact on me. This is really deep. And then I look up into this streetlight and there's this fucking reverb saxophone and I just think, fuck this, and I jump down a manhole. Oh, God. I'm sorry. That's what happens to me when I listen to Careless Whisper. I've got very overactive imagination.

34:10No, listen, I can get through it now, probably. I mean, people literally sing it in me for a laugh, my friends. Da-da-da-da. It's not right. Going to school must have been very challenging with ADHD. Yes. No, just generally. Having spoken to you for three minutes.

34:33Going to school must have been pretty challenging. No, but it must have been hugely challenging. Yeah, it was, yeah. Because you're obviously completely super bright You write like a dream. Stop. Let's just put it out there. Your writing is beautiful. It's beautiful. And also, what about this book is that... It is gorgeous. It's like... You've got your own style. It's completely you and unique and it's beautiful and it's honest and poetic and engaging. But, yeah, I wonder how education must have been... Oh, mate. Firstly, thank you so much for reading it and this is the first time someone's read it and asked me questions about it, so this is insane.

35:17No, but it's just like, I really, so I genuinely thank you for that because it means a lot and it's scary because this is the first time I've written something of this length. School was where I first was diagnosed with ADHD in the middle of my GCSEs. But it was quite late. Yeah, in the middle of my GCSEs and then I got re-diagnosed actually so I could do the island, which is another thing. The psych test, it was like a psych test. They did a psych test and actually my medication got stolen by some pirates as well. Are you joking? I'm being dead serious. That's another part of it. Why didn't that go in the book, babe?

35:48Because you don't want to fucking give him the airtime. Because of that producer. But anyway. So you had no medication on the island? I did have medication and they stopped it because the pirates stole it. Why didn't they just go and get you some more? Because I was on an island. Well, there were four boats that went past. They could have fucking got one. They might have done it at some point, but I don't know. It all happened very quickly. but they were more worried about the other stuff because they also stole like£80 ,000 worth of cameras. Yeah, look, I don't know. I didn't set it up. But yes, but sorry.

36:22The first time I was diagnosed was in the middle of my GCSEs and I didn't believe it. I didn't know what it meant. They put me in a room with a bunch of kids who also had ADHD or they were dyslexic. Not quite the same. Yeah, it's kind of, apparently. You all need extra time. And they were told that I could just stand up. Just get half an hour extra. I was told I could stand up. OK. Oh, that's helpful. Did you stand up? I didn't stand up. Yeah, I stood up. But then, for me, the biggest killer was, like, I was then allowed to use the disabled toilet because we were in a different... No, they weren't saying I was...

36:54No, no, no. No, no, they were just saying I had access to... I wasn't stopping disabled people from using the toilet. No, but... I was just, like, it was nearest that side of the wing in the school. But I was thinking, no-one checks in these toilets yet. I could have slipped a revision thing down the back of the loo and I would have A stars across the board. But I didn't. You didn't. I didn't cheat. Of course I wouldn't cheat. No. But I did then miss all of my targets. But yeah, but school, I didn't like school. I didn't get along. It wasn't for me. Everything that I achieved around that time, I did extracurricularly.

37:26I have a real thirst for knowledge, but only in spaces that really intrigue me. For really getting into it, I mean, I'm not necessarily qualified to make such sweeping statements, but I really do believe that the school system is deeply flawed. and that we don't pay enough attention to the body and the mind and have a slightly more holistic approach to... Like, for example... Oh? Okay. Okay. Yeah, see, I do think it's true, and I hear it as well from, you know, I guess friends of mine who are parents, but, like, yeah, I struggle with that. And there are schools, for example, there's one school in Detroit, I think it was Detroit or Harlem, that...

38:03That's a big... That's big, two massively different places. Fine. that implemented meditation instead of detention in school and just totally reduced the amount of kids acting out. Just simple stuff like that. So, yeah, I wasn't compatible and I pissed off a lot of teachers, but I was driven and did well. I think what I found, there was a part in this book, and you should all absolutely pre-order it and read it, but there was a part where you started to self-medicate. Yes. Oh, yeah. Was that Ritalin? No, it was a drug called Modafinil. Because a girl you were seeing or a friend of yours was getting it off the...

38:42It was a hacker friend, yeah. The hackers have got everything. So you access... She accesses... He. He accesses Doug. I actually don't want to say his name. But, yeah. But you basically were self-medicated. He's running from the law. So he accesses... No, he's not, but he is a multi-millionaire now. Anyway. Is he? It's another story. He didn't steal it.

39:06Anyway, he told me about this new drug. Listen, people talk about it quite openly. I think they've spoken about it on a popular podcast about science and shit. But they called it the limitless pill for a while. It's just like an upper that can really boost... But you did. You felt really inspired at the beginning. I did, so... Well, you thought you... Yeah. OK, so, basically... How old were you? I was about 24, 25. I realised after having been diagnosed again with ADHD, I realised that I maybe... Well, just before, I realised I had ADHD because I went to America and my friend had something called Adderall, which everyone probably knows what Adderall is.

39:45But in America, like, literally everybody's on fucking Adderall. This friend of mine, I don't think had ADHD, I think she just had a doctor. But people use Adderall to be able to concentrate when they're doing exams. Yes, of course. So she gave me some. and I took this out of the role. I remember I was in New York and I had this sudden wave come over me where I realised that I could think before speaking. Which sounds nuts, right? Actually, I think I was a bit young, about 22. And I think I've said this before in an interview, but I really, truly, at that age, thought that whenever someone was speaking, that was just what they were thinking.

40:27And if someone wasn't speaking, They just had nothing to say. I didn't, I thought, people weren't thinking, weren't speaking, there was just nothing there. So you never left a space? I never knew that you could think. And so I was sat there going like, having this thought and going, I don't need to say that. So I sat there and then my friends were like, dude, are you all right? I'm like, I'm great. I was like, I'm great. And I remember saying to my friend, like, could you just like, like for real, like if you just think something, do you just like not say it? And they were like, yeah. And I was like, whoa.

40:57and then so then I knew that there was I guess that's me understanding there's a difference in how my brain works and then so yeah I started self-medicating so I didn't take drugs which is another thing I talk about because there's upper drugs that act in the same way actually when people were partying I actually was hyper focusing and I end up with a drug problem because I was doing it at home because I was focusing so I was like writing scripts not like going partying um so I I did this modafinil to get myself off that. And yeah, the joke part I write about in the book is that when I get re-diagnosed with ADHD, the examiner asked me if I was taking anything to help with it.

41:33And you said... And I said, yeah, I'm taking modafinil. And he went, okay, no, we recognise that as a drug. And he said, how much are you taking? And I went, oh, like two pills a day. And he was like, okay, how many milligrams are the pills? And I was like, 200 milligrams. And he was like, uh... okay let's get you on something else this concerto this is uh and he gives me the box and the concerto said 24 milligrams on this and I went whoa and then I looked at like um the instructions on the concerto and it said like how you know you've had an overdose and that was like the feeling I thought I thought that meant it was working so I'd been overdosing on this modafinil for like 18 months.

42:15Like every day. And I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I wake up, take some daphnol, I'd be like, sweating profusely? Check.

42:25Dry tongue? Check. Unable to have intimate relationships? Check. And I was going about my day. So yeah, fucked it.

42:40Was it hard to change medication after that? Was there like a kind of cold turkey? Was it that hard? Well, I changed to the stuff I was prescribed, which was a lot calmer. And then I was on that for a while, and then you build up a tolerance and then you go back for more. I mean, I think a lot of us here will understand the difficult nature of prescription medication. you know like there's normally a time when you build up a resistance and then you kind of have to go for more but yeah I was going in between the two but I was taking a lot less modafinil when I was taking it I wasn't doing two pills maybe a quarter a half but actually it all came to a halt when I went through this breakup because I just decided that I wasn't thinking straight and I actually don't think it was a good time for me to stop taking the medication personally in hindsight, but I thought it'd be a smart thing to do.

43:34When this book kind of centres around the befores and the afters of this breakup, and after the breakup, there's a really interesting time where you go to Brazil to meet up with your uncle, and you write the essay, which then was shared to millions of people, and you were in such a bad place at that time. Tell everyone what the essay's about. Well, I'm not going to say it. Tell everyone what the essay's about. Well, the interesting thing about that, so in 2018, I don't know, 17... Me Too, was it? It was just after Me Too, literally just about four months after it was really kicking off. I was going through a breakup.

44:18Obviously, no-one knew this at the time, but I wrote an article for The Guardian about toxic masculinity, a term which, by the way, has adapted and mutated and shifted a lot since I wrote about it. It was a lot clearer, I think, back then. And it got posted by The Guardian, and it went viral to an extent. I think it got shared... The last time I looked, it was shared like 48 ,000 times or something. And what was so insane, and why I wanted to write this in the book, why I thought it was important to even mention it, was I had just experienced like four years as an accidental pop star. You know, like me and Harley made music that we loved.

44:54We turned up we were commercially viable. so we got shifted more into a space where we were very smiley, dancey, like haha, you know, like radio friendly and honestly like a part of me really struggled with that because sometimes people make assumptions on you, your intellect, like your background, like everything because you are positioned alongside other people and then there's other types of music that's in more of a critical, like a credible space so I was, you know, my early 20s it was a big thing to kind of deal with and there's a lot of attention I would have loved for the music we'd made as Rizzo Kicks, I think we made really good music and then so I did this article and I remember my email box was crazy I'm getting offers to write films to be on television, to like write books to whatever, all this stuff, everyone oh you're so inspiring to that and I was literally sat in my uncle's car park in Brazil just sobbing just like in absolute floods of tears because I was just heartbroken.

45:56That was always so wild. What were you heartbroken about? Well, you've got to read the book then. Yes, you read it. OK, I didn't get her that much. The PDF. Yeah, sure. The relationship I talk about at the beginning ends, Lenny, I'm sorry. Yeah, no. So it was all about, the heartbreak was about the relationship. Well, actually. Not about... Well, it was instigated by... Look, I was running from a lot of stuff and I behaved badly and I, you know, someone who I had exchanged, you know, love with left me and for good reason and it just broke me, genuinely. And when I was in Brazil, I was dealing with all types of grief.

46:36I'd lost people before and I hadn't processed it. But I just thought it was so interesting. So interesting again in a world where we're trying to chase this, a part of us, an egoic part of us. Have you spoken to us since? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got back with each other. Well, I'm ruining my fucking book now. She didn't get to that part in the book either. Mine's gone. Okay, but that's the third part of it. Lenny, I want people to fucking enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's not talk about that then. No, maybe we don't, maybe we don't. We'll talk about... We do, yeah, listen, there's...

47:06I went on a journey of... I wanted to really rebuild myself and, yes, of course, reconnect and make amends in whatever way I could. Yeah, of course, of course. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

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49:10I don't even know. I'm not fucking Portuguese. I might be saying it wrong. Toto Bo. Anyone Portuguese in here? Yay! How do you say it? Acai. Acai. Yeah, okay. Sorry. Okay. Just saying. One nil. What would be on your last supper? You just said it. You get a starter, a main and a puddle, babe. Just a bowl of acai. You get three quarters in your last dinner. Yeah. Have you not listened to the podcast? Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about on death row I think you'd still get I'm promising you're not getting free courses on death row We don't call it death row anymore because people got really upset It should make you upset That's a natural response Should we be passive about death row Oh death row No you're going back to the island Sorry sorry sorry You're going back to the island Don't tell me I'm going back to the island And now what are you going to eat before you go back to that island Fuck me Well, now you've just put acai in my brain Okay, no, that's fine It's an acai bowl But it has to be from Brazil Because in Brazil They obviously have the real shit I think it's from Bahia or something It's so pure And everyone who eats acai in Brazil Gets purple teeth And it's just full of nutrients And sometimes you can have peanut butter on it Or you can have granola Coconut shearings It's just so good How do you rate the Pret pot?

50:31Jessie I actually really like it. That's wild, Jessica. No, but I like it. Yeah, yeah, it's better that than nothing, you know? I'd go for that over the fucking... So would that be your starter? Sure. It's kind of pudding, isn't it? It is pudding. OK, what's your starter? Oh, sorry. Probably, like, just, you know, sourdough with a bit of lurpak. Salted? Slightly salted? I just... You can't beat it, man. No. Just a bit of buttered bread. If I'm going to die... Sorry, no. No. Oh, I'm going to die. I mean, you might go back to the island. I would polish off a whole loaf of sourdough. I really would.

51:11OK. From anywhere in particular. Where, yeah. Where what? You don't have veneers, do you? No. You've got gorgeous teeth. But anyone with veneers will not buy Dale's sourdough. Is this in the... What, have you got veneers? Yeah. Have you got a veneers WhatsApp group? Is this what it is? Veneers. It's a good idea. You should get involved. And you'll send pictures of your teeth in various objects. Fucked it again. Five out of ten, yeah. San Francisco sourdough did it this time, guys. Stay away. I tell you, veneers are a bugger. Are they really? Yeah. No, they look great. Thank you. Have you ever...

51:48It's come out many a time. We've had to cancel a few podcasts. What type of foods are we talking about? Apples. Apples. That's a main culture. Never eat a baguette. In fact, the logo... Can't eat a baguette again. No, you turn it upside down and you can. You can just avoid the crust. The baguette. I think it's easier if they're like... Avoid the crust. I think I don't do it. They've told me not to. Otherwise, I'm going to be on soup for the rest of my life. The veneer WhatsApp group logo is just an apple with a...

52:16Don't do apples. Just cut the crusts off, Lenny. I'll sort you out. I know. Okay, so your starter would be sourdough. Yes. I should have prepared an answer to this. I actually can't believe you. Yeah, I know I haven't. Okay, no, no, wait. No, I've got it. I've got it. Sorry. Listen, listen, listen. Look. Okay. Other than acai bowl as dessert, I'm going full Caribbean throughout. Okay. Because Caribbean is my favourite, like in my list of favourite cuisines. Caribbean's top. Then I'm shoving like Mediterranean. Is that too vague to say Mediterranean? No. All right, Mediterranean. And then Japanese probably.

52:53Those are my top three. Oh. Oh, okay. So is that like a merce? No, no, no, no, no. No, I'm just giving you context of who it's up against. Okay, fine. But Caribbean, the reason why I love Caribbean so much is because Caribbean in itself, as a cuisine, is just, like, drenched in history, right? It's all to do with, like, a mixture of colonies coinciding. Like, there's Indian-influencing Caribbean dishes. There's, like, an Irish crossover in some of the desserts. It's wild, right? So, like, I would definitely have, like, ackee, saltfish and dumplings as the starter, which I shouldn't, but I want to.

53:28and then I would just go straight into a jerk chicken, but I'd have to obviously choose who. Where do you get the best jerk? Who is going to jerk it? I... Stop it! Is there an alternate meaning for jerk? I'm not sure. Is there a Brixton jerk? Where's the best jerk I've ever received?

53:51Brixton jerk? Lenny, hello.

53:56Honestly, I'm not just saying this, but I've been fortunate enough to have Andy Oliver in my extended family and she has genuinely made the best jet chicken I've ever tasted in my life. Oh, really? Her and Nana Cherry together, yeah, they made an incredible recipe. Can you get the recipe? Actually, I try to once, I swear it's secret. She's got a... Oh, I don't know. I feel like she's keeping it from me. Okay. But yeah, that was a pretty good jet chicken, yeah. So that would be, I'll just go Caribbean buffet. And what are you having? Peas and rice? Yeah, rice and peas. Rice and peas. Yeah, some plantain and then I just have all the coal, coleslaw, macaroni cheese.

54:30Macaroni cheese. What drink are you having? Oh, fuck. He's not drinking, Jesse. No, not alcoholic. Yeah, I'm not like... I'm not... Do you like... What's it? Nutrient? Do I like nutrients? Is it called nutrients? You know that drink in a tin? What's it called? Like the milkshake. The thing, the milkshake. Is it called nutriman? Is it nutrimon? Oh, nourishment. Oh, nourishment. You're a joke. The thing in the can is baked beans. Yeah, but it's a milkshake. You're just pulling out all the West London Caribbean vibes. What is it? You're drinking supermalt, Jonan. Supermalt? What? I'm sure. Yo, that might be it, actually.

55:13Supermalt. Really? Yeah, yeah, supermalt's fire. It's very sugary, but if I'm dying, fuck it. So, dessert? No, acai. I'm switching to Brazilian for the dessert. You won't want the rum cake or anything like that. No, no, no, it's too much. Also, they often drown that in actual rum and I'm legit sober. And I've had to learn the hard way that, like, sobriety, it's important to remember that when approaching desserts because, like... No, they burn it off if it's cool. Burn it off. Yo, I went to an Italian one time. I've seen these lot do a double shot of whiskey or whatever in a tiramisu in front.

55:44Like, that's not burning nothing. The thing's cold. You can burn it off, though. Also, one time I went to a Japanese fusion restaurant and had, like, a sake side, right? Because, Lenny, like you, I thought, well, they must be burning it up. Yeah. I was wasted. Really? I was like, my head was spinning. I had one spoonful and I felt like I had to go to, I was going to say, I had to go to AA. That's extreme. I don't. Does it make you anxious when you eat out then for that bit? No, no, I'm joking. I'm not like, I, yeah, when I have like a rum and raisin ice cream, I freak out. No, I'm all right with it.

56:17I'm all right. Like I say, alcohol was never specifically my problem. It was just like a gateway into other problems, you know, so. We have some questions. I'm going to see if any of them are any good. Otherwise, it's over to you guys. Has anyone got a question? You can start thinking. We're going to put it to the team. Do you have a favourite favourite of ice cream, Lenny? Coffee. Oh, I love coffee flavour and ice cream. I love coffee. Jessie likes mint chocolate chip. I've just got back into it. Oh, my God, I hate that. That's recent. Got back into it. Jude's plant-based mint chocolate chip.

56:48Very good. Very good. It's like toothpaste. No. Chocolate in. Yeah, but that means you can have dessert and then brush your teeth really quick afterwards. Yeah. Oh, wow. There's a place in Brighton called Morocco's, and that has the best coffee flavour. Who is from Brighton again? Have you been there? Have you been to Morocco's? No. Morocco's. I have. Have you been there? Is it really good? It's a little bit secret as well. It's more towards like Hove kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. It's the end of Hove. It's the Hove end of the beach right at the end. Would you... I mean, you moved to Margate for a bit.

57:19Yeah. Are you going to go back to this? Don't tell anyone. You're not like our friend Robert Diamond who literally, here are you, here are you, please, everyone come. I went to Margate, I loved it. Anyone live in Margate? No. No. What was that, yes or no? I don't know, you went and then you left. No, people have been to Margate, people go to Margate all the time. Who's been to Margate? Very good food. Yeah, yeah. I just don't want to live there. But, like, how many years did you live there? I've had a place there for eight years. Do you think you'd return there? Did you ever live there? Yeah, so...

57:55Locked down? Yeah, I got locked down in Margate, man. I was so lucky. You were lucky. And you know what was so bizarre was, like, I... Mum, when have you been to Margate? I have been. You've been outside of London. I'm not talking about it, but I have been to Margate. Have you? Yeah. I thought it was nice. It is nice. Good food. Yeah, about three years ago. Great food. I got locked down and I was lucky because obviously I got to the beach and I was next to a field and I just... I couldn't believe how fortunate I was. And the mad thing was, I had put in my diary, like, for months before Jordan holiday, right, which was, like, just me having two weeks in Margate, trying to get my head together.

58:32You've got two years, yeah. I turned up on the Friday, and on the Saturday, national lockdown. And I was like, well, thankfully I've already booked out my time. But, yeah, alas, it was two years. Who were you locked down with, your mum and dad? I actually was locked down with a friend of mine called Trev. So that's a whole other story. OK, I'm going to read some of these questions, OK? This is from Alice on Instagram. Is Alice here? No. No, it was on Instagram. I know, but she might have fun. Lenny said that she was a medium, you know. SHE LAUGHS

59:16You'd be a good medium.

59:30I'm sorry. I suppose I would not want to end that. Have you ever done spirit work before? Because that was natural. That came so naturally to you.

59:42Is there an Alice in the room? I was doing an Alice. But I thought Alice... Alice might have... No, Alice is not producing. Please eat a little bit, because we've been yacking. There's some chips and cheese to help yourself. So this is from Alice. Which one of us, Mum, is more likely to go to prison or Jordan? And why? Oh, God, I've been in prison. Oh! I worked in a prison. I worked in Pentonville prison. Any social workers here? Did you really? Oh, God, bloody hell, we're letting the side down. I worked there in Pentonville for six months as part of my student placement. How was that, Lenny? It was very interesting, darling.

1:00:25And, Jordan, do you use cookbooks? I don't think he cooks, darling. No. No? Do you cook, Jordan? Yeah, sometimes. Thanks. What do you mean, when? When? I cook for myself mainly, but, you know, when I need to. But I cook very basic things, just what the body needs. Can you do a roast? I could do a roast, yeah. Can you do an acai bowl? An acai bowl. An acai bowl. Acai bowl. Acai bowl. It's not difficult. You can see I eat them all the time, yeah. Lenny, honestly, it's not... Acai is not like a demonstration of cooking. It's honestly just like a fruit you put in. Okay, from Rob on Instagram. Will Rizzle Kicks be going out on tour again?

1:01:07Now, you did kind of tease this on your podcast. your Brit one what's going on? yeah we're back yes great guys can I say something what's mad is we said that we were coming back two weeks ago and a week later inflation decreased in Britain oh my god like the Taylor Swift effect look I personally don't think it's connected I personally don't think it's connected. But my friends were like, yo, we're coming out of a recession a week after. Wow. We're trying our best. We're trying our best. Thank you. We're trying our best. No, no, but we are going to come back. We've made some music. We love making music.

1:01:49We love each other. I love Harley deeply. I think he's an incredible human being. And we've had, you know, five, six years, seven years, and then, you know, officially kind of ten since our last album out of that hell and grown up, you know. Harley is an incredible father and he's such a talented musician. He's got a baby. Two kids, yeah. and he really wants to just perform again. So, yes, the tour will hopefully be on the cards and I really hope everyone loves the music. You know, Harley doesn't understand anything about technology and so I will be the only one doing the TikToks. Yeah. OK, does anyone have any questions out here?

1:02:26Hello? Is that on? One, two. Oi, you'll be my name. Yes! Yes! Listen, Jessie, you're top tier. Are we willing to see it now? Oh, great. That's great. Jessie, don't play with us! Stand up. Stand up. What's your name? Sean. Sean? Sean. Sean, turn around, say hi, Sean. Hi. Hi, Sean. What's your question? My question is for you. I'm a teacher, and I agree the system's flawed in so many ways. Right. What are your favourite food memories from being in school? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I mean, er... Listen, all I'm saying is this. the food at my school was pretty shit and I think especially if you haven't got much money your options are limited and I just school food just taught me a lot about what not to do if you're like a high practice child you know what I mean with my 55p or whatever I had I could have like a chocolate cookie and an apple juice and I promise you that was not conducive to me paying attention in the next class.

1:03:33I have a memory of, like, a cheese panini that comes into my head. Like, I think a cheese panini would be, like, one of the options, I think. Baked potato. Jacket potato would be probably my highlight. Jacket potato, beans and cheese. I love that. My mum ate it when she was pregnant with me, apparently. So I've got, like, a kind of love for that meal. So, yeah. But can I just say, I was talking about this the other day. Jamie Oliver, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. He really tried to like... Change things. He really tried to stop kids eating badly and everyone was just like, fuck off. I know he's fucked it recently with the jerk rice and shit, but like, I just think about it, I'm just like...

1:04:12He really was like, he cared about what kids ate. He still does. You've been invited to something, Jesse. Have you? I just really think he was onto something. We should, yeah. Sean, what's the food like at your school now? Not great. Secondary or primary? Primary. And do they still have cake and custard? Sometimes, if they're lucky. Oh, really? OK, but at least they're cutting down on a cake. OK. That's the best bit! Why should they cut down on that? Because they're children, man! I'll show you the reports! Well, speaking of custard, give us this fun, interesting fact that is actually something you write about.

1:04:52It's the fact that may or may not be true, but I'm going to double down on it. Can anyone confirm? OK, so I'm sure I watched a TV show where they proved that. There's a chapter in the book called Punching Custard. Oh, oh, she's... Her mouth has got to... Do you know what he's about to talk about? If you punch custard, it's rock solid. No, come here, get on the mic. What's your name? Claire. Hi, Claire. Hello. Tell me if this is wrong, but I remember doing this. You had to put, like, corn flour or something in it. and then that made it hard and then you could punch it. I do remember this. Did you watch the show where the guy ran across it?

1:05:30Yeah. Oh, did everyone see that? What show was it? What? You watched it? I don't know, Lenny, it was on telly. It's TikTok. We were all watching one single television. What was it? We were all sat there. What was it, darling? I think it was a science show. It was projected onto the moon in 2005. Yeah. But yeah, you didn't imagine it. I remember that too. Right, so the whole idea is you punch custard and it's hard. you put your hand in slowly and it's soft. And I used it in a chapter to describe... Punching custom. ..the approach I had to take to my own emotions. But now you all know. Yeah, now you know.

1:06:05Has anyone got a question in the audience for Jordan? Oh, everyone has. I'm Chris. I'm from East London. Hi. Jordan, I recognise that you're quite a vocal ally of queer people and queer culture, which I personally find quite impactful because unfortunately I see it's quite rare for black and mixed race men to do that. And as a queer mixed race man from East London, that's very effective. So I just want to know if there's been a certain or specific experience or person that's inspired that for you. I love that question. That's a really good question. I love that question. It's a really good question.

1:06:45Yeah. Well, thank you for giving me this opportunity because I'm very fortunate to have a godfather called David McCalmon, who is this incredible singer. Oh, my God, I don't know if anyone remembers McCalmon and Butler. Yes, I do feel better. So he's also made a solo record called A Little Communication, which was like the soundtrack to my childhood. But David is an incredibly proud black gay man, and he had this epic collection of Barbies that were all pristine in the box, and you had Barbies I'd never seen before, all shapes, sizes, races. So you know. Yeah, I have a baby spice. Say it again, say it again.

1:07:25You've got a baby spice doll. I had a, I had, I don't have, I had. I had a baby spice doll. And I remember he bought me a figurine of Dennis Rodman when I was a kid. I remember this so vividly. Right, Dennis Rodman. And he had got it back from America and obviously in his mind he's thinking, keep that pristine, it'll be worse than shit. Yeah, yeah. I was like five. Nice. Rawr! And I literally looked like someone that killed his dog, anyway. But yeah, so look, look, what I'm trying to say is I was fortunate enough to be raised around all types of sexuality and ethnicity because they're just the people my mum hung around with.

1:07:57And so for that reason, I've never felt uncomfortable in and around that scene. I've actually felt really comfortable in and around that scene. And I found it more uncomfortable seeing the battle with this prescriptive, performative notion of heteronormativity. And I think it's a real issue, and I will continue to speak about it. I think homophobia is a plague upon the community and it also reflected well with some really deep internalised misogyny. And I really think that, like, one of the biggest issues concerning men nowadays, I guess I'm generalising here, but is that we're pushing away femininity.

1:08:36Like, I really think that the integration of femininity into the human experience in tandem with masculinity, that is how human beings can go some way towards living in harmony. And actually, what I think is freaking men out a little bit is in the last 20, 30 years, feminism has made some incredible steps, movements forward. It's been an incredible movement. Women, again, generalising here, I think have integrated more masculinity into their experience or whatever. And this is maybe more in Western metropolitan society. So there's more opportunity to earn capital, be assertive, all these kind of things that we desire to value in society.

1:09:11But men, I don't think we've got to that point yet where we've understood whatever we consider there to be femininity, we're not connecting to that. We're terrified of it. We're pushing it away. We belittle it. We demean it. And homophobia is just one of the ways which I think we deny ourselves that beautiful experience of just being in touch with half of who we are. We're half woman. You know what I mean? We're half man, half woman. And so, yeah, I think it spills out to our always back all types of ways of being sexuality, experience, expression. Also, how much do we owe to the queer community in terms of culture and like like lingo and cinema and everything, dance, art.

1:09:46Yeah, so big up. Great question, great answer.

1:09:52We just want to thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much to Jordan for being the most wonderful guest. Really? Oh, thank you. I've read that question. That's fun. We love it. Thank you, thank you. You are a superstar. You've always been a superstar. But I'm so thrilled for you because this book is so important. And I know you're all going to go and pre-order it. Honestly, you'd do me real favours with that if you pre-ordered it. But thank you for taking the time to talk about it. And thank you to all of you for being such a wonderful audience. And thank you to the British Library for hosting us.

1:10:33And thank you to Jessie and Lenny as well.

1:10:38Fantastic.

1:11:08I'll see you next week.

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