Louis Theroux

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1:05Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Wern. I'm here with my mum, Lenny. We're in Tlapper. Yeah. And we are very excited about this guest. So excited. Now we're doing this on a Friday night, which is Lenny's favourite time to podcast. Have a little drink. Have a little drink. I'm really excited about this guest. I am slightly nervous. We're about to be faced with one of the best interviewers ever. He's brilliant. And I feel like we're really going to have to learn how to master the interview in front of Louis. Well, he's a master of the interview. Yes, he is. Yeah. And you know what he does, Mum?

1:42What, darling? He lets the person speak. That would be novel for us. Speak for yourself, lady. OK, I'll try my best. So he enjoys the silence. So we're going to try and out-silence him. It's basically a silent retreat. It's going to be you and me looking at him, not speaking. And we'll see who gives him first. It's like, don't blink. Yeah. Yeah. I give us three seconds. But you don't like silences, darling. Neither do you. They make me nervous. They do make me nervous. I don't mind silences. Hmm. No? I think you'll find. We'll find. Okay, let's find out. Let's talk to Louis about it. We'll ask Louis about silences.

2:25Louis has done documentaries, movies. He's now a viral TikTok star with My Money Don't Jiggle Jiggle. And he is now a podcaster, which he started a podcast in lockdown. And now he is over at Spotify with the Louis Theroux podcast. OK. And we're very excited to have him. Very. He gets people to speak and say stuff and make fools of themselves. And they don't even know they're doing it. But I don't know if that's his full intent, main intention, but I am intrigued by his. He's got that ingenue, hasn't he? He kind of looks at you like, oh, you're voting for Donald Trump. Yeah, what would that be?

3:08And they kind of explain themselves. So you're right, less is more, I think, with him. Not like you with the... More is more. The guy that was reading the Boris Johnson memoir on holiday. And what did you say to him, Mum? I said, oh, you must have been the only person who bought that book. And what did you say? I said was it in clearance so he said it wasn't so Lenny and Louis have very different interviewing methods and we'll see how that goes tonight I wasn't telling him he was an idiot lambasting him so yeah Louis Theroux is coming up and mum's cooked however as we went to this charity lunch today we have brought in some help now we don't do this I don't think we've done this ever or well actually I tell a lot We have done this once before.

4:01But we are thanking lovely Johnny. Johnny, my friend Johnny. Who is a vegetarian. Yeah. Because apparently Louis Theroux likes eating vegetarian food. So what are we starting with, Mum? Chicken soup and matzo balls. But he does eat meat. That's what I was told. He just prefers eating vegetables. He tries to eat more vegetables. Okay. But I think chicken soup is so clear. It's hardly eating meat, isn't it? No, of course. So we're starting with chicken super matzo, chale bread, and then we've got... It's Friday night. Do you want to do the candles? Sure, why not? So we've got a vegetable tart, which is delicious.

4:38Fillo pastry. And it's got a base of pine nuts and parsley, which is delicious. And then I've done little gem lettuce with buttermilk and anchovy dressing and a bit of garlic. A bit? Yeah, a little bit. It's like living, like it's infiltrating my mouth. Yeah, okay. And then I've also done a radicchio with onion petals. Radicchio just makes me, it's such a funny word, isn't it? It's lovely. It's radicchio. Don't be radicchio. Don't be radicchio. So it's radicchio with onion petals, walnuts and blue cheese. As inspired by Saffy's in Los Angeles. It sounds delicious. Yeah. And what's for pud? A cardamom and fig pavlova.

5:22and there is rose water and cardamom in the actual meringue and also I've cooked the figs with some cardamom as well. Nice. Plenty. A game. Tried my best.

5:40Welcome, Louis Theroux. You've just had a puncture. You were cycling... Nearly punch-up. That would have been more exciting. You just had a punch-up. You crossed paths with some leery youth. Do you get road rage? what kind of cyclist are you? Oh. Do you bang on the roofs of cars if they cut you up? I'd like to think... You aggressively dingle your bell. I'm not... I'm a bit of an amber gambler. Oh, God. Is that a thing? I love that. Have you ever heard that? No. Amber gambler means you jump the lights. That does make cycling slightly, I guess, more racey and sexy, doesn't it? An amber gambler.

6:18You figure because you're not burning fossil fuels and you're there pedalling away and it's quite tiring, and if it's a, you know, what's the word, like a fine margin, then you think, well, I'll nip over even though it's turning or, you know, I'll do the crossing even though it's gone orange or maybe even just gone red, which is not ideal. But I don't think I'm aggressive. You know, there's a lot of tribalism on the road between the cyclists and the drivers. How do you feel about line bikers? Well, look, they don't pay my bills. But nevertheless, I got here on a line bike because of the puncture.

6:58Now, look, are you a veggie? No. Right. I do eat vegetables. You like vegetables. I'm flexitarian. Okay, so I have made chicken soup with matzo balls because it's my favourite thing to make. That's a nice wine too. Yeah, it's lovely, isn't it? It's wine society. They're such good value, to be honest. I love good value but I have made a vegetable a vegetable pie for you well I haven't, my friend did because we've been out all day but you did make the chicken soup and you've made the pork and my mom's nervous around vegetarians so then she like I eat anything what's your favourite thing to eat vegetable lasagna favourite, I love a really good pizza actually, I don't cook pizza because you can't really replicate proper pizza quality at home.

7:47Should I tell you my trick? Go on. Go to your favourite pizza place, pay for the dough and then make pizzas at home. Get a Gosney. Or one of those home pizza ovens. Yeah, they're brilliant but if you get the dough because I can't be faff with the dough and you do it, how old are your kids? Here's the thing though. They're 18, 16 and 10. So they don't really want to make pizza with their dad anymore. Okay, fair enough. And then you're doing them one by one and it's a little bit annoying. If you could bring out four at the same time of a decent size. Yeah, fair enough. But then you become a slave to the...

8:16I've got an uni. Do you know about uni pizza ovens? Yes. And with that, it's kind of fun for a while that you put bits of wood in and you're like, oh, this is like you're making a fire. Yeah. And obviously the key with really good pizza is the heat of the oven. You need to get it up to like 600... Very hot. ...degrees. Because it's supposed to cook in like five minutes. Yeah, it's got to be really hot and you want tiger spotting. You know that... Or leopard spotting, that's right. Leopard spotting on the crust where it's got little burn marks. Yeah. and uh but then then you're like oh my god it's like working in in the engine of an old steam train where you're having loading in more fuel to keep the heat up then you're stretching out your dough you're putting your toppings on and then suddenly two hours have gone by and you haven't talked to anyone so where where do you get your pizza from then well i would uh well the best is in america obviously and in fact new york yeah what's your toppings yeah um i'd go like a veggie supreme on that with pizzas i'm more inclined supreme that's what they just that's what they call okay it's like a domino's topping i don't mind domino's okay but but with pineapple without i wouldn't go pine now what's your dip at domino's uh the herby i love it white one do you know what when i was living on my own i was i was between girlfriends in my early 20s now maybe late 20s i was ordering domino's quite a lot because i like to cook but not when i'm not just on my own and it feels to take it takes the savor out of it so i was ordering and i was getting domino's pizza coming around and then you get the dips and then you dip it in the dip and a few weeks went by and i got this weird sensation like i was carrying like a rubber ring around and i realized like i'd put on a ton of weight which was weird and then it so it turns out um that's pizza can be quite yeah it can be quite calorific yeah if you do the dip i think the dip pushed me over the edge You don't think it was the full pizza from Domino's?

10:07Probably that didn't help either. Let's start at the beginning. You were born in Singapore? Yes, I was. Why? Why were you born in Singapore? Because they were, my parents were teachers and they'd met in Kenya? No, Uganda. I think they'd met in Uganda, in Central Africa. Or is that East Africa? Anyway, the point being, they were teachers and they'd moved from Uganda to Singapore to teach. which my dad was teaching at the University of Singapore. They weren't missionaries? No, my mum was in the VSO, Volunteer Service Overseas. My dad was in the Peace Corps. That was his service instead of going into the Vietnam War.

10:45They were both idealistic and liked the idea of travelling and seeing the world and broadening their horizons. And they met and fell in love. Had my brother in Kampala in Uganda. And then I think my dad was getting into trouble in Africa with the authorities, so they moved to Singapore. And that's where I entered the picture. How many years were you there? One year, I think. So you don't really remember it. Don't really, I mean, don't remember even vaguely. Right. And I've never been back. But I like the idea of it. Like, it seems like, you know, it's a city state. So it's like, it's just one.

11:18Yeah. It's like Monaco or Vatican City. Or Hong Kong. So really, you know, it's like Singapore, the capital of Singapore, which is Singapore. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think it's a bit of a melting pot. You've got Chinese and Malaysian and sort of Southeast Asian mix and kind of great social welfare, I believe. Very clean. That's what I understand of it. And then you came to Catford, am I right? Then we moved to, yeah. South London. Well, we moved to the UK. My mum, well, they settled in Dorset. I guess my mum's parents were in, near Beminster. Oh, that's near where my in-laws live in Bridport.

11:59Yeah. Yeah, we used to go into Bridport to do the shopping. Yeah, it's nice. And they were in a little town called Netherbury. That's where my grandparents had retired. Anyway, and then they moved up to... My mum wanted to work at the BBC. She went to work for BBC World Service. So they moved to Catford in South East London. Glamorous Catford. I actually live in New York. Do you? Yeah, I'm quite... And Catford's on the up, thank you. It's only taken 50 years. So how long were you in South London for? Well, 16, 17 years, because we were in Catford, and then we moved to Wandsworth, and not far from where we are now.

12:37Oh. Clapham Junction, neck of the woods. Yeah. Northside Wandsworth Common. Elsinge Road, if you want to get specific. I know Elsinge Road, yeah. Yeah, it's quite a nice road. Lovely. Actually, nice houses. Yeah, they're all different. It was supposedly designed as part of the great exhibition in the mid-19th century to illustrate different housing styles. So that was really my childhood home, from the age of five till when I went off to university. And where, well, firstly, round the dinner table, who was round the dinner table and who was cooking? It was me, my mum, my dad and my brother. And I was at boarding school during the week from the age of 13.

13:20So we, and my mum was a working mum. So when I was probably from the age of five to 13, I was getting, I was eating a lot of my meals with either a nanny or an au pair. We were just making fairly, you know, just kids food. I remember things like spaghetti hoops on toast. Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you still see that? You don't do that anymore, do you? I still love that. My kids aren't into it. They'll do beans on toast, but they can't do the hoops. Hoops on toast. I haven't even eaten. But I used to love that because it's very sweet tomato sauce and starch on starch. And the pasta is so soft, isn't it?

13:57Yes, very soft. That was on white toast with Angel Delight for afters. Which flavour? Butterscotch. Everyone loves butterscotch. That would have been quite a treat to have the Angel Delight. Or a club biscuit. So chocolatey. Beans on toast, a lot of fish fingers, maybe a lamb chop, sausages. Do you remember Franks and Beans? Yeah, you bought them in a tin. Oh, right, yeah. With weird little, sort of soft little hot dogs inside the beans. That's awful. I mean, that's what we were eating. They were quite nice, actually. I don't know, now it seems almost quite weird and unhealthy. This is when I was like 6, 7, 8, 9, you know, that was what I was eating.

14:43And then boarding school, how was the food there? It was okay. Was that Westminster? yeah i went to westminster you know here's my big too far away my big thing okay that i want to get out of the way is that until i was probably 16 17 18 i was a fussy eater i was almost you know that term neophobic where you're afraid of new things oh my god which i think is not uncommon in most children you know there were five things that i knew i liked tomato soup you know fish fingers a few others chips fish and chips uh and then i really didn't want to go out of that lane and my my parents like one of our family things would was on a sunday um my parents would take us to an indian restaurant in putney called the taj mahal and my brother would get um like a prawn biryani and my dad would get a king prawn madras i don't know what i can't remember what my mom would get and what would i get what papadums fried chicken and chips did they do that yeah they had like a little English section on the menu and I was like I want the fried chicken I didn't even trust rice I didn't trust it I was like what is it and then one day I was like why don't you just try I'm like imagine it's just trying you you have a spoonful of rice and what do you well it's bland isn't it because actually no one just eats rice you don't want rice on its own you want rice with something so I was like no I don't like it because it just tasted of rice right but until I was probably 16 or 17 I didn't really acquire a taste for anything particularly what I would have considered exotic.

16:19How did it make your were your parents kind of accepting of that or were they irritated? I'd give them enormous credit for being patient with me and I think there was a phase when I was 15 16 17 when I was mainly eating crunchy nut cornflakes. Do you know what I'm talking about cereal i was eating probably three or four bowls a day almost like someone with disordered eating you know what i mean where they'd like they put out the food and here's your there were a few things like my mum made fish parcels and i liked those that was a delia's no no that wasn't she delia made she liked delia but no this was actually do you know um oh my god jocelyn dimblebee yes it was called the taste that wasn't a taste of dreams that was her pudding cooked but she had another one that was it was a jocelyn dimblebee was i think i've got it it was fish it was fish apart it was basically little parcels of fish with pastry a bit of cheese and some spinach i liked that and there were a few others that as time went on i broadened but there was a time when i was like don't like it mum she's like okay well just go and you know have something else i stick it in the bin and have crunchy nut cornflakes how did that work in boarding school though was it actually quite straightforward because usually it was probably like you have fish and chips on this Friday.

17:38Yeah, it would be really bland and basic food. So it kind of suited you? I could manage, there'd be something that I could eat. Did you like boarding? I did quite, yeah. I mean, it was an odd one because actually I lived not, you know, 20 minutes... Sorry, that was my... Sorry, it was just a bracelet. I was fiddling. Oh my God, it sounded like... I thought you'd been shot. I know, I thought that was like a terror attack. I did as well. I was ready to drop and roll. I thought there was a gun from there. That was a shock. I need a minute to calm down now. What was it? It was my pearl bracelet. My heart's going like a drum.

18:17How did it make so much noise? I don't know. I'm sorry, and you were about to talk about it. I've totally lost my focus. Don't worry. Boarding school, did you enjoy it? Oh, my God. I've been in war zones. Shit like that can set me off. Did they have crunchy nuts at night? Do you provide therapy if I'm traumatised by being here? That's really my proper job. Is there any food that's triggering for you? Christ, chicken soup probably.

18:45Not really. But there's food that I can imagine would be triggering. Like in Japan, don't they do a food where they fillet the fish while it's still alive and then it's flopping around on your plate while you eat it? Have you eaten that, Jessie? No, I haven't yet. Have you? I don't like eating things. other than i'll eat an oyster while it's alive but i'm not i wouldn't want to eat anything else while it was actually alive looking at you looking at you saying what are you doing your point was uh what no there was that you were asking another question which was to do with boarding school and and truthfully it's a bit like it's a funny one because parts of it are brilliant it's a bit like being in a war zone i mean i used to facetiously compare it that when i went to san quentin it was fine because i'd already been to boarding school and it was exactly the same you know it's an all-male environment with a lot of situational homosexuality you know guys slapping each other's bums and saying like oh get you you know and um and sublimated sort of like wrestling and squeezing and and also it's not gangs but it's cliques uh and parts of it are kind of cozy and almost magical right that almost that hogwarts feeling of being in an alternate reality in these extraordinary centuries-old buildings, Christopher Wren designed buildings.

20:04Your assemblies were literally in Westminster Abbey, if you can get your head round there. You would go off to your Monday morning assembly, go past Chaucer's tomb, go past a monument to William Shakespeare. You're right in the heart of the oldest part. This is where literally Edward the Confessor I think was crowned right king in whatever that was 1065 or something and so all of that all the stones are saturated in all that history but at the same time you feel occasionally a bit lonely a bit dislocated and you miss out on parts of family life I remember looking around Westminster with my son it felt like university it felt clever It felt the most cleverest place I'd ever been into.

20:53And actually, when you go off to, because I went off to Oxford, not trying to make a big thing out of it, I got a first in history. Very good. Thank you. It's not a big deal. It's a very high first. I'm not trying to say a lot about that in history. History. One of the highest firsts in history in the year. That's irrelevant. That's not important. It's very important. Other than that, is that having been to Westminster, you sort of felt a bit like I was maudlin college, Oxford very desirable, very high achievement Did you date in that time, Louis? The point I was going to get to Is that where you got the first?

21:27No, the first isn't important, I don't know why I brought that up It's very impressive It's not, anyone, I worked incredibly hard and It paid off It is what it is Enough, I wish I hadn't mentioned it It's very attractive, Louis I wish I hadn't mentioned it So having been to Westminster, it was a bit like, it was a tiny bit like, oh, cloisters, old buildings, people going around in gowns. Been there, done that. Been there, done that. Oh, did you wear a gown at school? Or the masters did? I think the scholars did and the masters did. So it was kind of a thing. It's not like Eton, though. You can read more about my experiences at Westminster in my memoir.

22:07Got to get through this, available on Amazon. Oh, you're kidding. I reviewed it, gave it five stars. they took the review down oh for fuck's sake did you write it? they said it was a conflict of interest why didn't you just pretend to be Justin Theroux? he can't read he's very handsome though he is handsome is that where you met Adam? yeah at Westminster? yeah that's also been got to get through this we've had him on the podcast I'm sorry I didn't read your memoir did you not read it? I'm sorry that's one thing when I'm interviewing a guest I know we know that You're really, listen, this is something that I...

22:44I often joke, if you want to hide something, if it's something you absolutely don't want people to know about you, put it in a book. No one will read it. Oh, really? Yeah. Jimmy Savile had confessed everything in his book. Oh, did he? But no one read the book. I'm amazed what you can... I read Sharon Osbourne's book, and I was like, okay. It was extraordinary. And then I asked her about it, and she's like, how do you know all this stuff? she hadn't read her own book she probably hadn't written it either how did you go about choosing the celebrities that you had on your television show when it was the series with Judy, Stormsky, Ray, Rita that was hard because we wanted people who would be of the calibre that we thought would merit that level of treatment but you're also asking a lot of the stars it's not like a podcast where you're saying sit down for an hour or two we'll come to you, you come to us or we can even do it remotely.

23:40You're actually saying we need two or three days probably in your home, at your work. And that's a big ask of someone at that level. Back in the day, just to roll back, the first things I did involving celebrities, we would say we want 10 days. This was... They never have 10 days. The aforementioned Jimmy Savile. Paul Daniels was one, for those who remember. The magician and his wife, Debbie McGee. Oh, yeah. Neil and Christine Hamilton. and Max Clifford, the publicist, and a few others. That was very, very hard, and quite quickly we ran out of road. And actually, it was never kind of made explicit, but in point of fact we were largely dealing with people who were on the downside of their careers.

24:26It's not a nice term. So they came on your show instead of going on Strictly? It was before Strictly. You were like the I'm a Celebrity before Big Brother or around the same time. It was, yeah, it was I'm a celebrity before any of that. And then when reality TV came along and celebrities realised they could get their own, you know, they could appear on things and they didn't have to tolerate a BBC Inquisitor being impertinent, then quite clearly they would choose to do that. Plus the shows went on and who wants to be like, well, we've done Jimmy Savile and we've done Paul Daniels, so we'd love to do you.

25:01And I remember one or two of the celebrity's agents were like, well, that's not a very nice thing to be asked. You know, it became almost like a brand of like being washed up. It's like Louis Thru asks you to do something. So 15, 20 years went by. And I feel like it was a long road of trying to kind of, how do I put this? Show people that I wasn't just out to get people. to show actually that I was up for having conversations that felt fair and humane and that would be, you know, a win-win in a sense, or at least that's what we were aiming for, was not to show people up but to absolutely just tell the truth in a way that might not be necessarily prohibitive.

25:48What was your first job? You left university. Yeah, well, my first actual job, job, leaving university, was working in a, as an apprentice, not apprentice, but as a sort of helper to a glass blower. Wow. Yeah, in Boston, in Boston, Massachusetts. Why? So basically, I left university with the aforementioned American parent. I had an American passport. I went to live in America and I thought, I don't know what I want to do. I'm very confused. I don't know. I have a degree from Oxford. I have no idea what to do with myself. I've been on this track, high achieving, like getting absurd, like working ridiculously hard, learning about medieval kings of France and the scientific movement, Galileo, Descartes, Boyle, Kepler, Newton.

26:43right like who what do you do you then suddenly you're like well now you're in the real world they kick you out the other side of university and what are you qualified for like i could have been an academic i guess i didn't want to do that and i was like well what do i do i don't know i'm like a i'm like a cage chicken like a cage veal that's been released into the wild you know with spindly little legs i was like a battery hen with spindly legs saying like i don't know how to fly I don't know what to do. So I thought, well, I have got an American passport. My brother was living in America at the time.

27:17My parents had recently separated. Don't you're going to make me cry. No. It was a weird time emotionally for me. More of that in Gotta Get Through This. It's a very moving piece of the book. And so, you know, you think like, oh, well, you were a grown man. Your parents were getting divorced. Deal with it. Man up. Stop being a snowflake for fuck's sake. No, actually, it's quite upsetting when your parents divorce, even if you are a grown man. I could talk more about that. That would be an exclusive. No, it's an odd because also because I could see how upset my mum was. Were you angry at your dad?

27:57Well, not I mean, I was angry. I think I was angry with with both of them. I think I think mainly what I was angry about was that I was becoming the vector for their relationship so they weren't really speaking but my dad would be saying one thing about what was happening and my mum would be saying like what did your dad say and I'm and I'm like this go between in the relationship. So you moved to America? Well that wasn't why I moved to America but that was what was going on in my life and so I moved because I I didn't know what I was good for and I thought well I'll go and live in America at least I'll be kind of experiencing something I've got an American passport I traveled around for a couple of months I lived with my dad at his house in Cape Cod for a little bit where he was now living full-time having separated from my mum and then my brother had moved to Boston he just finished a master's degree at Yale he was working at something called the TV channel I slept on his floor for a bit and I couldn't find I mean, you know, it's like, what do I do now?

28:59I thought, well, I could get work in a bookshop. You know what I mean? It's like, what do you do when you're 21 and you've got really no qualifications other than a degree, right? You just, you know, and so I thought, well, I'll work in a bookshop. And then near the bookshop, there was a glassblowing shop, a studio where they were making these strange goblets. It's a technique called... What, like Murano or... Well, I don't know what that is. well in Murano yeah they blow glass yeah they were they were basically it's called the Masicio Technique which is a Venetian glass yeah right so Murano is an island off Venice isn't it there you go so it must have been copied they made these cherubs it was kind of a weird Frankensteinian process where he'd buy these goblets from the shop and then he'd cut them in half and then he'd put this cherub in the middle and then he'd he'd fold this glass around he'd put on he'd make a cloud I think he would do their hair and then he'd put a willy on them.

29:58You're joking? On the cherub? Did you ever have to put the willy on? I wish. I had no glass skills. Basically, working for his name was Tony Devlin paid like 25 cents an hour more than the bookshop. So I was like, well, I'll go and work with Tony and help with the willies. Can you eat some of your soup? Thank you. Do you need some bowls? So delicious. It is nice, isn't it? Do you like massive bowls? Do you skim it? Yeah. Put it in the fridge overnight, then I skim it. It feels good for you, right? Yeah, so it's got no fat. Yeah, there's very little schmaltz. Yeah, no schmaltz. Are you good at cooking?

30:39I don't feel I should be the one. That's like reviewing your book on Amazon, isn't it? You've got to ask someone. Okay, so if we were coming around to yours, what are you making us, Louis, through? That's a great question. Well, I'll tell you what I like to make. I'm a no-frills cook. Look, if it was lunch, I might just roast a chicken. I know it's so boring, but I really love just a nice roast chicken. I might, if I was feeling, if you'd given me a bit more warning, and if it was you, it would be a bit more special because, you know, we don't know each other that well, so I probably wouldn't want to roll out the red carpet.

31:17And I might do a vegetarian lasagna. I've heard about this vegetarian lasagna. but kind of fun and also it means that you've prepped it so once the guests are there you stick it in the oven with a nice salad. That's a lovely meal. Or a slow roasted lamb. There's a couple of recipes where it's like five or six hour and it falls off the bone. Acquiere is the French term. Acquiere meaning to the spoon as in it's so tender that you can break it off with a spoon. Also, I always feel like slow-cooked food feels so special and it feels so thoughtful, but actually it's quite effortless, isn't it? Because you kind of bung it in.

32:02I love a slow roast. Me too. Do you know that viral recipe that's... It's like a beef stew where there's only five ingredients and it never goes wrong and it's extraordinarily delicious. It's literally, literally five ingredients. There's no chopping. Oh, I love that. Two of the ingredients are just spices that are in a packet. It never fails. And I think it's a five-hour, six-hour beef roast. And what would you serve it with? Mashed potato. Do you add anything to your mash? Do you like to get decadent? I don't. I mean, I know people who, like, they'll add, like, boursin. You know that one? Yes.

32:43We have in our cookbook a chicken boursin, courtesy of producer Alice. Yeah. that's nice I mean but I actually think if you do I put quite a lot of butter in and obviously season it liberally with salt and pepper a little bit of milk I don't think it needs anything else what else does it need so you are you're quite foodie like you like cooking yeah I love cooking I would say I'm the cook I'm the cook of the house oh right yeah I do I would say 90 % of the cooking in fact maybe even 100 % So your poor wife is not eating tonight because you're here or have you already prepped her some food? Well Friday nights we have a takeaway which actually I'd rather cook on a Friday night but it's a tradition it's kind of nice in a way, the kids like it it's a special night to have something ordering Have you just got boys?

33:38Three boys, yeah But on a Saturday or a Sunday I cook to relax I cook just to sort of busy myself. I cook obviously to eat. And so on a Saturday or Sunday, I do some batch cooking. Like I'll typically make a huge bolognese. At Aldi, you can get 750 grams of mince. I love Aldi. Do you know what I'm talking about? And it's a mixture of pork and beef mince. And it actually says on the label, ideal for bolognese. Do you know what I'm talking about? No, but that's such a good hack. I love Aldi. It's very, very affordable. and so there's a Jamie Oliver recipe for bolognese in Ministry of Food and it's basically two onions, two cloves of garlic, two carrots, two sticks of celery.

34:24Can you remember that? Hello. Two tins of tomatoes refilled with water and he doesn't call for tomato paste but I put the paste in. I think it makes a bit better. And what I also do is like beforehand I'll often either fry up some pancetta or fry up some, this is my invention, I know, invention, that's a strong word, some chorizo, which is rich in paprika-y. Fry it for like two, three, four minutes and then take it out, put it to one side and it infuses the bolognese with some really rich umami flavours. Oh, great. And then you do 750 grams. Louis Thur is bringing out the umami. So you need a really big pan for that.

35:06You are a real chef. Think about how much, you've got 750 grams. That's about four meals. and then all through the week, you know, like a bad boy. Well, they come and go, so they'll have a bit, go back, but basically it's like having a cauldron, you know, like being a gall, you know, in ancient times. And you've got a huge cauldron of bolognese and they come in. Literally today for lunch, they came and helped themselves. By the way, I'm always conscious of cutting down on me. I think a really good, a really good putinesca. And again, just double the quantity so that you can, you can, you have enough.

35:41you know when they say like enough for four well just do enough for eight or twelve do you know what i mean and then and then stick it in a tupperware thing save that when you get a takeaway save the tupperware boxes do you do that wash them show louis your drawing i've got i've got i've got about a thousand of them i get so excited are you organized as long as they all i only have one type and if you order from oh no it's not the right type but basically you make into a putinesca tomatoes, capers olives, anchovies I don't know the proportions and that's good all week the putonesca, do you know why they call it putonesca?

36:22horse salad horse sauce I shouldn't say it but prostitute sauce sex worker sauce because I don't know that one because they didn't have very long between clients so they'd have like 15 minutes and they'd have to whip something up really fast Oh, that's why it's a good thing to make. Yeah, apparently. Did they make that to you? Because poutin in Italian has poutin in French. Did you get that on your weird weekend with the porn stars? Jesse, why are you using your desserts? I don't know, I just am. Louis, what do you think of the maths schools? Just asking. Amazing. Okay. Delicious. Good. It's so rich and it's so, it feels like it's good for you.

37:00Yeah. Chicken soup for the soul. What did the porn stars eat on their, like, did they have, like, protein shakes? or did they have like strawberries dipped in chocolate? I didn't spend enough at home with the... Porn stars in general, this is a huge generalisation. Yeah. But based on my limited experience, I mean, I made three films in that world, but they're not massively... The ones I met, I should say. Have you finished, darling? Weren't massively... They weren't like... Okay, I feel weird even. I'm on thin ice with this. Okay. I didn't spend enough at home with them to really know. I will say that in the world of the brothel, I spent three weeks living at a brothel.

37:42Not for a film, I just like living there. I always make that joke. It's like I feel like I'm dying inside. It is quite a good one. But you continue. I know, it's like my wife can't. And they always said it was the best stocked fridge. You know they say an army marches on its stomach? Well, a sex worker also. May I? had sex on her stomach. I was going to use a rude word and then I didn't. So what was in the fridge? In the sense that that was the thing. It was just everything. Just everything. It was the most... I've never seen a fridge quite so full of food. Have you said that? I remember when I met a porn performer, a male porn performer called Tommy Gunn, and halfway through his sex scene, he came out and he ate this weird thing, squeezed it out of a little packet.

38:30Like an astronaut? Yeah, like an astronaut. I saw football players doing it. And it was like, what is that? Is it a protein? It was almost like it was... He probably needed the energy to get it. Or hydration? He was halfway through the scene. It was really striking because... Do you mind me... You were asking me. So basically, in the world of porn, keeping an erection is, for the man, the job. That is the job. You could almost argue... It's not the only job, but it's the main job. Because the other jobs are being nice on set, turning up on time etc. being respectful but the sine qua non the must have is a hard penis I'm sorry to put it so bluntly and I remember seeing him but it's interesting because in the Me Too era it's like well it's really odd to manage the social niceties in a world where your erect penises is absolutely central to the job and I remember seeing this guy Tommy doing a scene and the minute they cut this like the woman pulled away and that was it and I remember thinking like that's interesting because you might think oh he needs a little help like I don't know like that was a prejudice that I brought like actually you know that you the sex they're filming the sex but why would he need help well because there's a two three minute break oh to keep it up yeah okay and at that point he's gonna droop right she did she broke away and I was okay, I guess that's how it works.

39:58And I said to Tommy, like, so is that odd? And he says, well, some people do it like that. You know, it's called wood management. But, you know, and I personally, I would prefer wood management. But, you know, because the wood is the word for the erectus. She's meant to manage his dick. Well, not meant to, but I think he was saying it would be easier for him

40:19if between scenes the intimacy continued, right? but that's obviously you know a case by case basis and that may be why my point is that may be why he needed the protein stick I don't even know what to say would you like some onions and would you like some blue cheese what can you say among professions it's obviously the idea of having sex for a living it's not really sex is it it's acting here's the thing It is really sex. You think it really is sex? Well, yeah, it is in the sense that they're having sex. Oh, that's true. You know what I mean? That's the only thing that isn't acting. It may be not making love, do you mean?

41:04Yeah, it definitely is sex. Do you like the pie? I really like the pie. Did you make the pie? No, a friend did. It's delicious, isn't it? I have got the recipe, though. It's absolutely delicious.

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42:31We ask our guests what their last supper would be. This might be my last supper. This is delicious. It's good. It's really delicious. If I get run over by a car on the way home. Do you want some more? No, you're going in a black cab home. Yeah, we're going to make a fun. You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay, Louis. Drink up. Can I have another slice? Yeah. You don't mind? Thank you, darling. That's the best when we get a guest that wants more. I know, but they'll be so thrilled. I wonder what's in this. I'll tell you what's in it. It's the bottom that makes it. It's pine nuts, lemon and parsley mixed up with a little water.

43:10Have you been on Celebrity Bake Off? I will never. Why? I'm not a baker. I know about your pizza cookie. Oh, you do know about that. You've got the shake. I could have done better. I wish I could do it again. Maybe they'll have you again. I did get a Hollywood handshake. Yeah. Speaking of regrets, do you regret anything that you... Have you got any regrets of any of your shows or podcasts that you feel like maybe took it too far? I'm a terrible sort of revisitor. You know, I go back and see things I could do differently. And one of my other terrible habits is looking at my old programs. like even last night I'd had a couple of drinks and I Oh God, you didn't look at your old programs They're all on iPlayer Oh my God, did you see that?

43:56You must have seen that amazing Guardian article about Yeah, some guy spent like 48 hours just watching them or something It was amazing Just watching his program Yeah, because they'd just been on iPlayer I shouldn't say some guy, a talented journalist It was a really good article Does he do the jiggle wiggle? Well done, Mum that's not it doesn't mention anything about doing a jiggle wiggle but I do the same thing of going back to last night whatever reason sometimes I just try and remind myself are they any good and occasionally you think wow that one's pretty good and sometimes you think were you lacking in confidence yesterday?

44:33um I don't know what was going on it doesn't take much like it's not like oh I'm in a low I'm just like I'm in a low I'm in a low I'm in a low I'm in a low it wasn't like that was more um you know you're on your phone and you're like what was it I think I was just thinking about program making and documentaries I thought what was that one so I did one where I went back to see Joe Exotic it's a 90 minute is that Tiger King it's called yeah shooting Joe Exotic where I tried I tried to process the experience of knowing Tiger King and anyway to your point about regrets so what I tend to see is things that I could have this is ours uh I don't actually things that happen in the field for the most part I'm quite pleased with I sort of accept that on location you get what you get for the most part and then most of my regrets are to do with things in programs where I could have written it slightly differently and actually the phrasing feels a little bit clunky I know that's the most boring answer I could possibly give but honestly there's so much about the job that is technical to do with how you write in and out of scenes how you frame encounters.

45:46And those are the things where I'm like, I don't know, I think I could have improved on that. That felt wordy or that felt like it didn't quite nail the idea or that felt overstated. I did one with Joan Collins and I spent two days with her, two or three days in the south of France. And there was a scene where... That's amazing. I'm really pleased with the programme, but there was a phrasing thing where we arrive at this restaurant in the south of France and they either aren't expecting us or they just aren't pleased to see us. Or they're French. Or they're French. And it's just so small and technical, but the line I did was, Joan said she was always, you know, it was one of her favourite restaurants and they were always pleased to see her.

46:27And then I say, but on this occasion, not so much. And then we see to them saying, she goes, are they, do they know we're here? And I saw that and I was like, I wish I hadn't said on this occasion, not so much. Didn't need to. Didn't need that. Right, okay. It's a really small thing. Yeah. It just would have been, I think, I think it would have been a little better if I'd just taken those words out. But you can't ruminate on things like that. No, but I guess... I can. So you're going to be better. I think, I do think that you could improve and that maybe the lesson is you just, you think that you're there and then you just keep working and work.

47:02Work harder on the writing. Work harder on the framing and the structure. The Joe Exotic one I looked at last night, there was a bit where I was like, this part of the story the hinge isn't quite right the writing doesn't feel quite right anyway there's so much that I regret there's so much that I regret there's a whole scene I wish we'd shot with the Joe Exotic film where he was going to they were going to campaign for his release and they were going to go to Washington DC and we were offered a flight on his lawyer's plane and then we just let it slide and just things like that I think could have been slightly better Woody Allen said they said something about when's your happiest moment in creating a film he said at the moment I get the idea and then everything after that is a compromise interesting which is something in that, everything after that I don't absolutely line up with that but there is a sense in which there are small failings and little bits that you wish you could do differently or do over and as it goes on you're pleased with how it turns out but more often than not there are little things that you feel actually you could slide especially with the hindsight and the passage of time.

48:11I'm going to have one more tiny slide. Please do, you can take some hand darling. Oh god I'm late. I know I'm sorry. What are you late for though, just being with family? Yeah, I just don't want to get back so crazy late but it's all good. You can't go ahead and eat that pie. Lutheru, what is a very nostalgic taste for you that can take you back somewhere?

48:45he's going back

48:53it's funny isn't it because the taste that sets a sense of taste and smell are the most closely associated with with memory you know this isn't the answer probably you're looking for basically today I had a weird thing where what was I cooking? I was making something. I don't know what it was. Bolognese? Might have been. Or lunch. There was something. What was I doing? I might have even been cleaning out an old, like something that had food that had gone off a bit. Cleaning it out. I love leftovers. And I got a whiff of the smell and it was this kind of strange congealed meat that they used to feed to cats in the 70s do you know what i'm talking about this is a very proustian but yeah carry on very proustian really only in the sense that i was like i almost called my brother when we got our kittens um i was probably nine and he was probably 11 and they said they're so young you can't give them normal cat food so you have to go to the pet store and get this special and it was like this congealed slop i I don't even know what they're called.

50:05It's like a gravy. Yeah, but it was solid, like a jelly. It was like a slab. A slab of weird, toxic meat that was so strange. There was no other smell. But I'd never thought about that smell. And then whatever I was doing this afternoon, cleaning out this Tupperware thing that had gone to the dark side, and I got the whiff. and I was like, oh my God, that's taking me back to South London and that strange gelatinous slab of grey meat and how weird that was. I know that doesn't really answer your question. It actually does. The two takeaways were, one was, wow, these sensory moments create pathways, almost like straight back into time, like 40 years or went like that.

51:03It was like a corridor instantaneously, as you said, like Proust. Do you remember what the Proust... It was Clementine's, wasn't it? Or Madeleine. It was a Madeleine. It was a Madeleine, but not just a Madeleine. What was it? It was a Madeleine dipped in tea. Oh, lovely. Yeah, and it takes him back and he describes the metaphor he uses. He says it's like putting like a piece of paper, you know, there's a piece of paper that you put in water and it blooms like it turns into a flower. and his madeleine and his tea created this combination of sensations that took him back to his childhood in Cambrai.

51:35And for me it was like this rancid bit of meat that was in an old chilli that I found in the Tupperware. It took me back to this toxic meat slab that I'd fed to the cats, the kittens when I had them. It was exquisite and beautiful. What were your kittens called? Scratch and Kipper. Good names. Yeah. You didn't finish your food. I'd like, I'm, do you want, no, I just, you can have another. I'm not a pudding girl. Donnie, would you like another piece? No, I'm really full. That was so delicious. I'm going to have to think about making a movie in a minute as well. It's fine. That was so delicious.

52:08I mean, yeah. Yeah, it was really nice. Thank you, Johnny. But also, we started with the... You know we care about the guests. I wish I could cycle home now. I thought you were going to say I could stay. Are you worried about having eaten too much? It would be a nice way to just sort of enjoy the food. as it joggles up and down in my tummy. That would be my idea of absolute hell. I would be not wanting to do that. Blending it. Can I ask quickly, what is the one food that you don't think you could live without? I could live without any food. No, like, what do you like in your kitchen? Marmite? Something?

52:49Oats? Fish fingers. Do you eat them now? No, I don't eat them. No, because I eat them. But like, when was the last time you had fish fingers? There always are fish fingers in my freezer. Really? I didn't have them this week, but I probably would have had them last week. Well, how would you be having them? A fish finger sandwich? I've heard something in shock. No, but like, how are you eating them? Like, sandwich? With my mouth? Yeah. Oh my God. Come on. Louis.

53:19It's all gone wrong, Jess. It's all gone to like Westminster. Fucking year nine. Fuck's sake. in a sandwich a fish finger sandwich by the way I think that's a respectable culinary practice I think it is actually now I hate to break it to you I think you haven't given it to your kids fish finger sandwiches they spit it out on my face delicious and here's what you're going to do lightly toast the bread butter it white or brown you'd probably go brown would you go tartar or mayonnaise ketchup dry dry no okay then what and also toast them under the i mean the fish fingers under the grill right don't fry them don't fry them don't cook them in the oven that's really important in fact that's the only golden rule and then flip them two or three times yeah so they're really crispy on the outside and hot and moist on the inside yeah and then while they're still really hot grate some cheddar cheese could be other cheese you could put some borsa on there or soft cheese game changer Jess.

54:22And then a liberal sprinkling of Tabasco sauce. Don't give the children that. Grind a bit of salt, a bit of pepper. Any salad? Any salad? I'm going to do a cookbook. Probably not, but if I were, it's going to be called Jump to Recipe. I know, because I love it when it says, you know when you get one on the internet, they have all the apples in it, and they tell you about them fucking making it. Yeah, how you do it. My cup came over. And then another thing is, I love onions. You're like, I haven't got time for this. Jump to recipe. And you click jump to recipe. That is a very good title. Mine's called jump to recipe.

55:04I'm going to be on the cover and I'll be jumping. I'll be in midair. That would be great. With my thumbs up. It's called jump to recipe. Louis Thru's No Bullshit Guide to Making Delicious Food. I think you've just got yourself a book deal. If you're out there. Yeah. Right? Jump to recipe. Jump to recipe. This isn't a hobby. I don't want to read about, oh, you know, this. I just need the recipe. Yeah. You know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean, Louie. I can't wait for that. And the first one will be fish finger sandwich. I think that's good. He's so naughty.

55:50My head's in a spin, darling. Louis Thurow is an absolute rager. It all got quite squiffy at the end. Yeah. I don't know if he actually answered one question. He didn't give us a pudding, did he? No, but he liked mine. He did like yours. He loved the pie. He had three slices. He loved the pie. Three slices. Thank you, Johnny. Thank you, Johnny. He's now, like, tying with who had three servings. Did Ed Sheeran have four servings? Yeah. So he's second place. Ed Miliband had three servings. So Louis and Ed Miliband. Yeah. He's really brilliant. He's brilliant. He's entertaining. He's so terrifyingly intelligent.

56:30Yeah. And completely immature. I don't know if it's immature. He's got a very... He loves talking about willies, I've realised too. Yeah, we had cherubs with willies. We had like him talking about... Erections in pornography, the wood. The wood. He loves it. Loves it. Frisky Fridays with Louis Theroux. That's the new season. Frisky Fridays. Louis' podcast is on Spotify. You can listen to it. He is excellent. A bit jealous of his cookbook name. Yeah, that is brilliant. Jump to recipes, so clever. But yeah, that went off-piste. and I liked it. I enjoyed it very, very much. Good, good, good. Thank you to Louis Theroux for coming over here and saying that you had to leave at 8.30 and you've left at 25 past nine.

57:14We love it. Puncture on the way. Puncture. He's now in a black cab. Going to Pimlicar. There's some black cab driver thing. I've got Louis Theroux in the car. I've got to pick his bike up. With his high viz. And his beanie and he's got to get the bloody bike in there. Good luck, mate. Yeah. You can watch all of Louis' documentaries on iPlayer. You can listen to his podcast. We've learnt a lot, darling. Read the biographies before they come. Yeah, yeah. Then you know their secrets before they know them. That is an excellent bit of intel. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.

58:24We'll be right back.

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