Michel Roux Jr.

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1:05Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm in the room with Lenny and she's laughing, thank God. Why are you laughing? Well, it has been a traumatic week, Jess. Oh, yeah, I know, I know. We just want to take a moment to say rest in peace, Prince. The cat that you have heard a lot of. Annoying us. Annoying you for years. He's been, you know, a staple of Table Manners. But sadly, we said goodbye on Monday. Yeah. How are you, Lenny? Well, I'm coping just, but I do miss him. And I see my handbag on the floor and I think it's him. Oh. Yeah. And I think, oh God, he's come back. No, I don't. He's come back.

1:46But the nasty cat that caused his demise by fighting with him came into the kitchen. Like, what a gumption. Yeah, looking for food and prints to have another go. And I shooed him out and threw water on him. Rest in peace, Prince, and thanks for being a great cat. He was a beautiful cat. Very handsome. Very handsome. And why did he get his name, Jesse? And whose cat was he, actually? He was mine. Yeah. And who... He was ours. Yeah. And who did you call him after? The artist. Yeah. Yeah. Formerly known as... So he's up with the Purple Prince now. Yeah, he's up with the Purple Prince. Shredding guitars.

2:25Probably. Or sofas. So we have... It's really hot today in London. Yeah. It's so hot that we've decided to get the Pimms out and this is not a sponsor. It's that we've heard that this guest that we have on is his favourite drink in the summer. It's an odd one for a Frenchman. Do you think? Yeah. Let's talk about our guest, Mum. Who have we got on? Well, he's someone I've admired for a long time. A, because he is the most wonderful chef and cooks things that I could only dream of cooking. And I did really want him to do an exhibition of how you'd make il flottant. Oh, yeah. I would have loved that.

3:03Oh, Paris-Brest. But sadly, I'm cooking for him today, so I hope it's up to snuff. What have you made today? I've made sea bass baked in the oven with white wine, olives and tomatoes. Yum. Delicious sea bass. I'm going to get him to serve it, darling, but don't make a big pig's ear of it. Okay. And then I've done potatoes roasted with fennel. It's an Angela Hartnett recipe. I've done some little courgettes à la Bar Pitti, because we were there last week. And I've done some white asparagus because it's the season. And what have you done for pudding? I've made an almond, lemon and apple cake. River Cafe.

3:47Easy. Yum. They say it's easy. Who knows? Was it easy? It was easy. It looks nice. I hope it's nice. So Michel Roux Jr. is a renowned chef, French chef. He owned the two Michelin-starred restaurant Le Gavroche, which was opened by his father, who was Albert Roux, and his uncle, Michel Roux. And then it closed last year in January. And I was so desperate to go. And people that said they ate there, it was just such a memorable experience. He was also on MasterChef The Professionals. He was the kindest person, always very encouraging. So I hope he'll be encouraging today, Jessie, when I make an ashen blotty of anything.

4:29And I think he lives locally. Yeah, because I used to see him down Abbeyville Road, I think. Michelle Rue Jr. coming up on table names.

4:45Michelle Rue Jr., you are here in our kitchen and we are very excited to have you. We've wanted you on for so long. Mum is Mum actually You're being quite calm For us having a Michelin starred A Michelin starred chef We did two Pimms It looks beautiful That's a piece of art Yeah Joe did that So much work That's gone into that Oh my god I feel like we're A master chef Professionals Of that answer You always were the nice guy Are there any more glasses Like this It would be rude for me To say no I will have a little bit of that Because it looks like A fruit salad It does It's good for you He's got your five a day there I'll help myself I'll serve Can you stop yourself From getting involved when you're at other people's houses?

5:24Yeah, I've walked in and I've served the water. I'm serving the Pimbs. Can you stop yourself? Or do people quite like you when you come over and you're like, you know what? Mum wanted you to fillet the fish today. You will be doing that. I just wanted you to come in and knock up a quick Eau Flotant. How's your morning been? What did you have for breakfast? So breakfast is always the same. I'm a creature of habit. Yeah. So it was really nice coffee. Strong coffee. Black coffee. Good quality bread, which is really important. Where do you get your good quality bread? Oh, thank you. Merci beaucoup.

6:06There's a new one that's just opened on St John's Hill called August. Oh, I've not heard of it. So you're schlep all the way there for your bread? Yeah, so far. I guess you like all running. There's another one closer by on going towards Ballum. It's called the Lockdown Baker. Oh, the Lockdown Baker. It's just at Caff and South. Yes. Yeah. That's very good too. Is it? I thought it was a calf. I didn't think it was. Well, they do both. They do. And what's your bread of choice? A sourdough loaf? I do like sourdough. Sourdough seems to be getting a bit of a bad rap because it's everywhere. But I like sourdough.

6:45A good sourdough. So what did you have this morning? I actually had a bit of baguette. toasted, lots and lots of butter salted butter of course from France? yes, normally butter and homemade marmalade it's that routine I like routine, I like order I like precision and I like everything in place he's like Andrew Ridgely from Wham no, no, Andrew, I've met him several times Okay, so he has exactly almost the same breakfast as you. Yeah, yeah. Routine, I like routine. I don't like to be... Do you? I'm not into star signs, but what star... Are you Virgo? Oh, you're Gemini. Yeah, Gemini. Well, I have two sides, two sides to me.

7:32Okay, so do you have a wild side as well? Less so now, but yes, when I was young. Okay, good. So let's talk about when you were younger. Where did you grow up? Yeah, cheers. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Such a pleasure. Thank you for coming. Where did you grow up and who was around the dinner table? And I think I can imagine who was cooking, but tell us a memorable dish from your childhood. Gosh, well, I was born here in the UK, in Kent, to be precise, because mum and dad came to this country in 1959. And so, yeah, dad was cooking in private house for a family called the Cazalet family in Kent on a beautiful estate called the Fairlawn Estate.

8:17And Dad was the chef, the private chef, as it were, sort of Downton Abbey scenario or upstairs downstairs. And Mum was the kitchen help. So it was the two of them. And so they were dishing up dinner to the family. And I kind of thought it was time to come out, as in Mum was heavily pregnant and the waters broke. Oh, wow. In the middle of service. Oh, my God. So she was rushed to hospital, and the following morning, I was in a professional kitchen. So from day one of my life, I was in a professional kitchen. Because obviously they didn't have any family, they didn't have any money to have nannies or care, child care or anything like that.

9:02So I was in the professional kitchen. So when people ask me, why were you a chef? I mean, it was only a natural progression of what, you know, I can't think of anything. So you knew, yeah. Yeah, I can't think of doing anything else than being a chef and following my father and uncle's footsteps. So from the age of day one all the way through to seven, we lived in this lovely little cottage next to the estate, the Fairlawn Estate. And it was wonderful. It was in Kent in rural countryside. Dad used to grow vegetables and fruit, rear animals for the table. So it was a lovely... Was it just you or did you have any brothers or sisters?

9:46My sister, yes, but she came a lot later. She's five years younger than me, so she only saw a little bit of life in the country. Is she a cook as well? No. Do you describe it? You're a chef, you're not a cook. I shouldn't say that. There is a difference. There is a difference. in my view there's a distinct difference between being a chef and being a cook okay so tell us not all cooks can become chefs absolutely yeah I definitely couldn't I don't have the discipline I agree yeah um but let's go back to some of the meals you were having were you having a lot of the meals that the family were having no or was it very separate no very separate so um Mum and Dad would cook at home because it was cooking for the family.

10:34Dad would get home relatively early. And there were times where the family were not in. So, I mean, lots of time with Mum and Dad, which was lovely. It was a wonderful childhood. And the food, well, the food was very French, obviously. I was brought, I mean, I was born in England but brought up as a French child. They both spoke French. They both spoke French and hardly any English at that stage. I mean, only a few words. So it's your first language? French, even though I was born in England. Okay. Yeah. I mean, when I went to primary school, I struggled at first because I didn't speak English.

11:10So it really does, you know, put it in perspective. But the food, the food was wonderful. It was family, French food. So, you know, lots of great classics. But because we were in the country, and as I said before, Dad was rearing animals for the table. I mean, you know, I'd be playing around with the rabbits on a Tuesday and and we'd be having roast rabbit on the Sunday. So, you know, but did you ever get affected by that? Were you ever like, please not flopsy or it was just kind of part of your upbringing? And that was the reality that that was the reality. And then we do a lot of foraging. We go fishing and, you know, any fish that we'd caught, we would eat gathering snails, crayfish in the rivers.

11:55and such like, and mushrooms. It wasn't a gimmick or a fad or anything like that. It was what you did. And did your dad cook for you your meals, or was it your mum that cooked your meals? Or a bit of both? I would say it was a bit of both, until we moved to London, and dad and uncle opened Le Gavroche, so in 1967. How old were you then? Seven. Seven, okay. And then dad kind of disappeared, because he was working all the hours and six, seven days a week. He'd have a Sunday off, but he'd be sleeping all day Sunday. So mum was really the one that was cooking everything and looking after the two kids.

12:38I just wondered, when did your dad and your uncle get the first Michelin star? 72, because I think the Michelin guy launched in France in 71, and then they got their first Michelin star in 72. Why did everyone decide to come from France to England? From what I understand, my dad had got a summer job. Well, first of all, yeah, he got a summer job at Cliveden House when it was still privately owned. So that would have been in the early 50s. Where's that? Cliveden House, just near Windsor. It's a huge estate. It's now a hotel. Oh, it's a hotel. Yeah, I've heard of that. Cliveden. And so dad was a scullery boy there.

13:22Okay. So doing basic cleaning and peeling vegetables. But why did he come? He fell in love with the country. The following year, he had also another summer job in Ireland, again, as a lowly chef and worked there for two months. And again, just loved everything that was British, the countryside. And he said, you know, one day I want to come and work in England. So he went back to work after that at the English embassy or British embassy in Paris as a chef, as a young chef, up and coming young chef, and said to his head chef and bosses there at the embassy, if ever there's a job that comes up as a private chef in an estate in England, please count me in, I want to do it.

14:08And in those days, and maybe still now, those kind of jobs were always filled by French or Swiss, very often as well, chefs, because they were the pinnacle of great food. So this came up and Dad was... Where had he trained in France? Started as a pastry apprentice in Paris and then went straight into private house. So cuisine bourgeois, as we say, which is private chefing for the elite and the nobility. So, I mean, you grew up as a French boy in the UK, but what were some of your favourite UK dishes or were they kind of not allowed to be eaten? No, no, no, no, not at all. It sounds like your dad embraced, he loved being here.

14:58Dad absolutely loved it and loved British cuisine. So, I mean, you know, he really got into it. And because it was a British, you know, obviously an English family, actually, the Cazalets. And probably what I omitted to tell you was the estate, Fairland Estate and the Cazalet family were horse trainers to the Queen Mother. So very often the Queen Mum would come back. So he'd be cooking for her. Yes. What was her favourite thing? Do you know? Did she ever request it? She really did enjoy the cheese souffle that then did. And she used to ask for mustard with it, which you can understand. Cheese and mustard works really well, so it's a good combo.

15:35But no, she would always have mustard on the side, but various other things. But yeah, little anecdotes about that, about the Queen Mum. The Casalit family had children about my age at that time when Dad was there. And one day when the Queen Mum was coming in and inspecting her horses and stables, and stayed for lunch and as I alluded to earlier I was always in the kitchen even when I was a baby and a toddler and I escaped from the kitchen and went down into the into the corridors of the of the estate and the queen mum came back just before sitting down for lunch with me in her arms and said to dad chef I think this one belongs to you

16:26Not that I remember it, but it's a lovely story. You sound like you have a wonderful, you had a fantastic relationship with your dad. Yes. I mean, up until he, up until we moved to London in 67, it was fantastic. It was an absolutely wonderful childhood. Beautiful childhood. um and uh but then but then you know he wanted to open the restaurant uh and then from yeah the age seven till about i would say i was an apprentice so 16 hardly saw him and we didn't really have much time i mean yeah because you know he wanted you know to to make an impact which he did to get the business going. I mean, the holidays were great.

17:12Summer holidays we would go fishing together and whatever, which was fantastic, don't get me wrong. But that very, very close childhood relationship stopped. And then I disappeared at the age of 16 to do my apprenticeship and travel the world and be a chef. And then when I came back and started to take the business over, that was very fraught and very difficult because It's hard working with your family, isn't it? Oh, gosh, yeah. Oh, shh! and he didn't want to let go. Oh, okay. You know, he said, no, no, I'm retired. Like hell he was. He didn't want to let go. How old were you when you took it over?

17:48Oh, gosh.

17:5329, 30. So you'd had like 15 years experience cooking, making a name for yourself. And yeah, it was tough for your dad to let go. But I'm sure, was it kind of like, did he give you the space to do what you needed to do or was it very much teething issues for a while i mean he did and he didn't it was um as i said it was a very difficult thing to let go i feel um and he was always sort of he was omnipresent he was always there did that drive you mad at times yes and and we did have words in the kitchen oh sometimes yes yes which was not pretty oh i bet yeah it's smelling good yeah yes it's so it's hard to cook it go on english food yes or yeah thank you um so when i was at um primary school in kent there's that there was a headmistress called etty i remember it clearly vividly from from the valleys from wales wonderful lady beautiful beautiful lady so so just so warm and friendly and you were maybe have were you having quite a hard time at primary school at this time it was difficult to because English was not my first language and you're in Kent and potentially it was yeah I mean it was it was beautiful I have only fond memories of that um and Etty bless took took me under her wing and when there were special events or my mum and dad were very busy, she would look after me in the evenings.

19:33She was like Miss Honey. She was wonderful. And she would make me some wonderful crumbles, steamed puddings, things like that. Good, proper English or Welsh maybe puddings. And they were a real treat, absolute treat. and I remember them, still remember them. So, Paribreast or Steampudding? Oh! No, no, no. You can't do that. I mean, if I had two children, it would be like asking... Let's speak about your daughter, Emily. Just got her first Michelin star? Yeah, that's right. How do you say it? Pronounce it properly. Caracter. Caracter. Caracter. Yes, and it's in West London, Westbourne Grove. Yeah, Notting Hill.

20:20It's the corner of Westbourne Park and the Leadbury. Oh, wow. So she's right by Leadbury. She is next door to the Leadbury. Creme de la creme up there. It's a really, and you've got Core as well and so many other animation-starred restaurants now up there. It's incredible. So, obviously, it's her restaurant, but I can imagine you've been quite involved or not. Has she been like, Dad, I've got this? Well. Does she run things by you? Sometimes. Yes, and ask for advice or what I would do in this case or what happens if this, that or the other. So that's really great. But I don't go in there and say, look, you should be putting that on the menu or this isn't right or that.

21:07No, it's not. Did you teach her or did she go to? No, no, she did her own thing. She went to a hotel catering school in France and ploughed her own way. And not once did I have to intervene or say, look, if you want, I can get you a job here or I think you should be doing this. No, quite on the contrary. She's very strong minded. She's hence the name character or character of the restaurant. But equally, Diego, her husband, my son-in-law, who's an absolutely amazing talent in the kitchen as well. Fantastic chef. So they work really well together. but I ran it past them if they wanted to take over the Gavroche way in advance to me taking my decision to close the restaurant and they didn't want to they said no no no we want to run our own do our own thing was that hard for you?

22:02yes and no yes because it would have been nice to continue yeah three generations and they were more than capable of taking it on and keeping it you know going as a success um but then i then i see how well they're doing in their own restaurant and how happy they are uh then i think no actually you've probably done the right thing does it make you think that would you have done things different do you kind of wonder whether you would have liked to have had so i often think about that and i think what if i had done the same as emily and said to the old man no you can stick your restaurant i want to do my own thing where would I be now?

22:44Would I still be? And I think, you just don't know but I think I would have probably done something like Emily and opened a small restaurant. I mean, I'm hopefully talented enough to have gained my own Michelin stars and my own recognition. In many respects, Emily and Diego because you can't really say it's just Emily it's Diego as well and the whole team because they're fantastic, they're still carrying on the Rue legacy, as it were, because, you know, that's the third generation of Rue. How many covers were there at the Gavroche? It's a 68-seater restaurant. Okay. And we used to renew a few tables, so we used to average around 80 covers a night.

23:31And how big is the character? 40, and much smaller. And is that more manageable? It's just a much smaller premises. premises i mean the kitchen is is probably about the size of where we are now for a professional kitchen it's quite small um so they couldn't really do much more than but it's still fine dining um yeah fine dining i'm not keen on yeah how do you go to michelin but i thought you only got a michelin style if it was kind of no no not at all explain can you explain some of the things that are of course there's particular criteria for michelin but what do you feel like uh the main components because yes what some people may presume is fine dining it's yeah people like anglo-thai mountain um saint john's kind of squashing that so what do you think of the the key elements of getting a michelin star apart from great food well it's not apart from great because when you ask and i've asked several times and so has emily and you know we have spoken to mission inspectors and they will always say it's all about the food food first and foremost okay so and then consist consistency so it has to be consistent so if you are ast john's for example which is wonderful but very very pared back it's you know the the protein and the sauce boom or the roasted bone marrow which is fabulous and the parsley salad and the grilled bread boom if you go in there on a Tuesday, it has to be exactly the same on the Saturday.

25:03It has to be just perfect. It's just simplicity, perfect ingredients, and consistency. So that's the number one thing that they will look for. And it doesn't matter if you've got silver cutlery or they will present you with a wine list or a sommelier or anything like that. That's added sort of value, as it were. But it is first and foremost quality of the food and consistency. Okay. And they say that is the same criteria for one, two, and three. Although I feel that when you move up to two, then there's more of the service element and the little extras come into it. And then for three, it has to be the full Monty.

25:51You have to have everything. It has to be a blowout experience, which obviously is seen in the price. Do you eat out a lot? Yeah, I mean, I'd like to eat out more but every night of the week would be great because I enjoy going out. I enjoy eating out. I enjoy tasting different food. I enjoy restaurants. I enjoy being in restaurants. Where do you go locally? Locally, Trinity. Trinity downstairs if you want, Michelin-starred and, you know, really, really on point food. Upstairs for, because he has upstairs as well. Yeah, it's just more casual. I think I've only been to the downstairs. Well, upstairs is really casual.

26:34Yeah. It's chalkboard. Great. Menu. Catch of the day and it's just grilled and served with a nice dressing or veg on the side. Where else in club? Do you go to Shea Bruce? Yes, of course. I love Shea Bruce still. Shea Bruce, I've probably clocked up about 70 odd visits. Yeah. We used to go every, it was a ritual, used to go every Sunday night with Emily when she was three, four, five, six, seven, eight. So all of those ages. And we used to go nearly every Sunday night. And we were the first table in. And they knew, I could book last minute because they knew I would be out within an hour and a bit.

27:16Because you had a young child. Yeah. and we would go in and sometimes I'd pre-order, I'd phone them and say, can we have this, that and the other? We are the same person. Do people get irritated when you do that? Did your wife get irritated with you when you'd be like, do you send a menu to somebody if they're late at the restaurant and saying, what do you want? See, maybe I should be in Michelin's daughter. I don't know. I could not be. So what was your order for your young daughter at Shea Bruce? Do you remember? Yeah, so we would share the, not the Tornado, the Chateaubriand. Chateaubriand, chunky chips.

27:53And then, I can't know what we would have as a starter because it would always change. But they always had the Chateaubriand. And a side of interjection. Or a rib of beef or something. Yum. So can you tell everybody what's going on? Because Le Gavroche is returning for Wimbledon. Sorry, I'm munching my five a day. I know, it's so delicious. It's delicious. so I've been running a restaurant at Wimbledon the championships now for I think it's 10 years it's called The Lawn and we do about 700-800 covers a day and we do a full a la carte so you've got a choice of 4 starters, 4 mains, 4 desserts and then afternoon tea after that it's a huge operation massive, massive operation are people quite stressed out because they're worried they're about to miss a game or is it they come for the meal and they aren't rushing you?

28:46It's tight because we open the doors at around, I think it's 10.30 or 11. Most people just have a couple of Pimms or a cocktail and then suddenly realise, oh, I'd better sit down and eat. And then you've got to try and get three courses in. Before 2 o 'clock? 1.30 it starts now. Oh my goodness. So it's tight. You do it. Yeah, and if it's a men's game, it's going to last five sets, isn't it? Yeah, you need sustenance. Well, yes, but it means if you miss the first couple of games, it's not too, too important because you're still going to get a load of tennis. And what they do generally is they put a doubles game or a low-seeded match first, so there's not too much of a rush.

29:36And some people just don't really care. Because they're eating your food. They're only there for the food. And so that's what we've been doing for the last eight, ten years. I can't remember exactly. But last year we launched Le Gavroche at Wimbledon as well. So we took a part of the Lawn restaurant and built a mini Gavroche. It's decorated like Le Gavroche and it's tasting menu only, so five courses, with pairing wines. and it's a really, really sort of special experience. Jessie, book now. I think it's probably sold out. It gets sold out within minutes. And the front of house staff are gavroche, so recognisable.

30:23That's so special. Really good. Does it satisfy you to be able to do that or is it kind of bittersweet? No, no, no, no. It really is a joy and that was exactly what I wanted to do with gavroche. so close the restaurant take back control of my life and back control of Le Gavroche because Le Gavroche was a monster and it was controlling me and then taking Le Gavroche on the road as it were and I'd taken Le Gavroche to sea so in two weeks I'm on the Queen Mary and we've got Le Gavroche at sea for a week Are you travelling with? Yeah of course Do you get seasick? No I don't get seasick Where are you going on your cruise?

31:04Norway I love Norway Okay, that's good I would have gone more med That's possibly for next year Can I just ask? Norway in the summer is stunning though, isn't it? I mean, it's stunning all the time Should I unwrap? Do you think if I unwrap it slightly? Let's have a look at this fish, come on You don't worry I am worried It's not hot Oh, that's starting to get hot now But it has been in 20 minutes it's not hot is it that's not cool no a little knife a pointy knife yeah just look in that top drawer shall i open it yeah that's not cool i've turned it round so can you fix leni's oven as well no i don't know why it's not because it's been on it's the recipe for two sea bass yeah and she said 12 to 20 minutes 12 minutes would never cooked that size.

32:01They never cooked that size, would they? Never. That's like half an hour, 35 minutes job, I think. I would have said at least. Anyway, I think it open, I think it will get the heat to it. Well, whilst we wait, sorry. It's okay. We're going to ask you your last supper. You are going on a desert island for a very long time and you have your last supper. A starter, a main, a dessert and a drink of choice. Starter, I'm going to go for the souffle suisses. So that was the signature dish at Le Gavroche. It was on the menu in 1967 and I only once attempted to take it off the menu and it just wasn't worth it because everyone was complaining, saying, we've travelled from New York just to try your cheese souffle.

32:46Why is it not on the menu? Why did you want to take it off? Because you were bored of making it. Yeah, I was bored of making it and I wasn't a particular huge fan of it. What's in the souffle, Suisse? So it's double cream. seasoned with salt, pepper and cheese. Which cheese? That tiny bit of mature cheddar and gruyere or emmental. So you cook the souffle base once, then tip it onto the cream, cover it with cheese, grated cheese and bake it again. So it's twice baked. It's about a million calories, not a million, about a thousand calories or whatever in a bowl. and I just thought I want to move on from that so I took it off the menu and about two months later I put it back on the menu I have a love-hate relationship with it put it that way Have you cooked it since you?

33:42Yes Have you ever cooked it at home? No Never cooked it at home Funny enough I was doing an event with Emily in her restaurant last night and it was on the menu there we cooked that for our guests as well. So I really enjoy seeing it every now and then, now. But, yeah. But it's on your last supper because of memories? Memories and sentimental reasons. Okay. And I do actually like eating it. Okay. Just don't like, is this a fast? Labour intensive. There's a lot of work that goes into it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very, very simple dish, but there's a lot of work that goes into it, if that makes sense.

34:22Yeah, I do. Okay. There's no more, like, there's four ingredients. Yeah. So that's your starter. My starter is that. Souffle de sucesse. Second course would be a roasted lobster with lashings of garlic butter. There's a theme to this, isn't there? There's a lot of fats. Yeah, garlic butter, smothered in it. When you think you've got enough garlic butter on it, put some more. Okay. Yeah? Where are you getting your lobster from? Scottish. Okay. Scotland or Brittany. Either or. I don't want to cause them. Okay. Do the nobsters come alive? Yeah. Oh, my God. How do they travel in the little town? Oh, first class.

35:01First class. And what sides are you having with that? So, sides with that would be chips, but big, fat, chunky chips. Okay, interesting. Not the French fries. Fried in what? Duck fat. Duck fat? Thrice, rather. Triple thrice? I've never had duck fat chips. Have you? It has to be an animal fat, either duck fat or beef dripping or even pork. It's got to be cooked. You'd need a lot of that to make a chip, wouldn't you? Yeah. It's okay, there's jars. Okay. And what else? Maldon sea salt on top and Bernays sauce. My favorite. That thunk my chips in. Oh, I'm salivating. Any veg? There's a bit of greenery there, the chopped parsley and the garlic butter.

35:50Oh my God, that's so funny. Okay, drink. What are you having in your drink? I'm having vintage champagne. Which champagne is that? I mean, there are some Grand Marc out there, Tatanger being one of them, and Comte de Champagne would be rather nice. I mean, I've brought a very nice bottle. I know he's brought a beautiful bottle. We'll have to use it to celebrate. Really nice bottle of Paul Roger, which, again, is great champagne. But they're at Krug, obviously. a vintage champagne you're not Cristal no how vintage are we talking like how far back are we going I love old champagnes like how old 20 years old is not a problem if it's a good champagne it will be okay it will be fine and it's been kept properly I really really do love old champagnes I don't know if I've ever had a really old champagne and it's just become so complex the flavor profile changes completely obviously there's a little less fizz and a vintage champagne a really really old vintage champagne if you're talking about 15 20 years plus I think is is better to be consumed with food a younger champagne as an aperitif so pudding are you a sweet man so I did a pastry apprenticeship um so I love pastry.

37:18I love making it and eating it. I wouldn't say I've got a sweet tooth. You say that, but you did have marmalade for breakfast. Yeah, but it's homemade marmalade and it's not very sweet. Really? I say we, it's my wife's recipe. She cuts back a lot on the sugar. And so it's... It's quite tart. It's very sharp. Well, not very, it's sharp and tart and it's not too sweet. I would go for pudding I would go for a chocolate mousse Really? I thought we should have done a chocolate mousse No I wouldn't have done it if he could make it There used to be a place in Paris where my daughter lived there not this one called Hippopotamus and it was a big chain they made the best chocolate mousse and it used to go to this kind of side table and it was enormous and you just took as much as you want.

38:13I remember it. It was wonderful. It was called hippopotamus. It was steak, I think. There's one that still exists in Montparnasse in Paris. In fact, I think it was the first one that opened in Montparnasse. It was so delicious. They put a little flag on your steak if you wanted it. Blue, red, whatever. And chips. And the chips. And it was all fab. And then the chocolate mousse was the thing. And you just could keep... Of course, you couldn't eat that much, and they knew that, because you'd be sick. If you were to cook any other cuisine, what cuisine would you cook? Or can you even? I can't pretend to be proficient in any other cuisine than French.

38:55I dabble in it, yes, of course, like we all do, I suppose. But no. If I were to start my... Michelle, you can't be a one-trick pony. I am, I'm sorry. if I were to start my career all over again I did do six months in Hong Kong which was fabulous I really really enjoyed that but I would do more spend more time in Asia in Japan maybe in America wherever possible so we've talked about Clapham quite a lot because we're here but are there any go-to restaurants maybe you're going to say your daughter's restaurant of course of course but any other ones that you absolutely adore to go to in London or in the UK?

39:44Yeah, gosh, there are so many. Nottingham sat bains is one of them. Sat bains? Sat, yeah. I don't know that. We've never had that one here. Sat bains. What kind of food? French? Yeah, well, based on French classical technique, I would say, but he has Indian, he is Indian, so he has Indian lineage and heritage, so he brings a lot of that into his cuisine. That sounds really interesting. It's beautiful. So that's where I've been recently and I must say, blown away with very, very good food. Gosh, where else can I... Oh, talking of Indian, Bibi in Mayfair. Okay. Been to Bibi? No. Do you need to attempt to do this?

40:35Are you going to do it? You want me to try and fillet the fish? Yes, please. Dissect the fish.

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42:37It looks really nice Mum, it smells delicious, just very simple. And white asparagus. Yes, Mum's very excited about that. Yeah. It's my first. Really? Right, is it going out of season now? No, no, no. But you don't see that much now in the UK. White asparagus is very German, Belgium, Northern France. but you're starting to see them more now oh okay I like them I like the white espouse right okay I'll take one with lots of bones you don't need to please do the best because I'm good with bones so am I I don't know if I'm good with them but you are the guest he's giving you the best bit thank you do you ever eat any version of junk food or guilty pleasure food?

43:30No. Never. So never Kentucky Fried Chicken. So my first and last Kentucky Fried Chicken Oh no. was in 1976. Thank you. What happened? And I'll tell you where it was as well. 1976. Brixton? Clapham High Street. Oh, okay. The one on the corner there on Clapham Manor Street. Yeah, yeah. thank you and that was I was in Scouts in Clapham Manor Street yeah that's lovely and the Scout leader or whatever it was called said guys there is a new restaurant that's opened on the high street and I'm going to treat you to it and he brought this massive great big bucket of Kentucky Fried yeah and that was my first and last did you not enjoy it no wow you're like the only kid that ever said that I don't like it didn't like it at all so I don't want to go back there fast food I'm not against fast food but I think it's it's almost become a go to for a certain generation and it's just wrong and it's laziness but people just don't cook it's really nice mum it's really gentle it's delicate and lovely shocking darling these asparagus need a bit of they're a bit woody aren't they so I'll tell you a thing about white asparagus well I did cook them longer they do need more cooking than green I did cook them longer but they taste quite bitter they do taste bitter why?

45:10they always do the white ones have more bitterness than the green ones that's why they need to be cooked a little bit more and they have like two skins yeah oh gosh should I peel them? Did you not peel them? No. Enjoy that. Oh, shit. Yeah, you can... They're a bit stringy, aren't they? Yeah. Asparagus, especially white asparagus, they need to be peeled. Oh, I didn't. So peel them now. Two goes of the peeler on them. Well, now we know. Oh, yeah. Oh, actually, if you peel them, you're fine. Rope off the top. It's all right. So fast food, yes, I'm... You won't do it. I'm not a fan. For me, the idea of fast food is, you know, an egg, for example.

45:55So, I mean, MasterChef Professionals is kind of where everyone fell in love with you on screen because you were kind. I think it's because I was honest. Honest. But you, I mean, you were great. But gentle. Yeah. I mean, I think some of the comments that I got at the beginning there was, gosh, he's harsh and gosh, he's tough. but you know I was upholding my profession and I was being a professional but these are professionals as well yeah yeah yeah well that too absolutely but I was being honest and honest in my appraisals and trying not to be overly negative and to always give them something to hang on to and that's important you know I always say okay it's very easy for somebody to find negative and to give somebody a load of shit as it were for doing something wrong.

46:47But a far more powerful tool is to tell somebody when they've done something right. And you should never forget that. So, you know, it doesn't matter how menial or small the task is. If they do it right, they've got to be told that they're doing it right. Were you gutted when it all ended? I was. I loved you the best. Bloody potatoes. Yeah. It was ridiculous. Yeah. Yes. Can you explain what happened briefly if you don't... Yeah, so I didn't fall out with the MasterChef production company or the crew there or anything like that. I fell foul of editorial policy. Or as people in the BBC call it, Ed Poll.

47:31Ed Poll. You and Gary Lineker. Correct. So for a while I thought, who is this bloke, Ed Poll? I want to meet him. Yes, I was that naive. And I didn't have an agent. Because I kind of have a bit of a dislike in agents. So I read my contract, but obviously not well enough. And I just did my own deals. I'm grown up enough to understand, I think, but I didn't quite read that line. Anyway, the reason why we fell out was that I did an advert for potatoes. Albert Bartlett. Albert Bartlett and their jolly good potatoes. So my argument was that my relationship with the Bartlett family preceded anything, any kind of contract that I had with the BBC or with MasterChef.

48:20And we were, in fact, close family friends, which is true. And we go back loads and loads of years, way before MasterChef. So my argument was, well, I'm doing an advert not because I am now famous through MasterChef. I'm doing an adverb because of my relationship, which precedes any time with MasterChef. And they said, well, no, you're doing this because you are now famous because of MasterChef. So anyway, we to and fro, to and fro, and went upstairs and downstairs. And I never got to meet Ed Paul, but I understood about editorial policy. And I can understand where they are coming from in a way, in a way.

49:02so I left which was a shame because I really enjoyed doing MasterChef I really enjoyed that nurturing and the finding of new talent and helping them I carried on it wasn't you know that's it you're crowned you get your little trophy and off you go notice I haven't stopped eating do you know I'm so flattered that you've eaten it it's really nice mum thank you the fish is really it's delicious really good It's really nice. It is very good seabirds. The seasoning is glorious as well, so well done. You're very, very, very good. You see always something positive. You can taste the wine. I thought the asparagus.

49:42No, the asparagus was not good. What will we always find in Michelle Rue Jr.'s fridge? There will always be. A bottle of champagne. Vintage? Mm-hmm. For that moment, you never know. I love that. Always ready to celebrate. Well, yeah, that's life, isn't it? You should always be ready to celebrate. I like champagne when you're a bit miserable. It cheers you up. Well, it does. Yeah, definitely. There's something in it. Champagne is for any time. Yeah, it lifts you. Even when you're thirsty, champagne's good. That's what Madame Boulogne said. But salted butter. Do we have a French cheese in there?

50:25Yeah. There is always cheese in my fridge. I could live off cheese. Me too. What is your cheese board going to be if we're coming round for dinner? There would be an assortment of goat's cheese, because I love goat's cheese. Blue cheese, obviously, as well. Maybe a Roquefort, a Forme d 'Anvers, or maybe a Stilton. You like blue cheese? Oh, yeah, yeah. I love blue cheese. I love all cheese. The only cheese I dislike are the really sweaty, smelly ones. Oh, I love those. Stinking Bishops, one of my favourite. I'm not for it. No, I'm not. But I love a good cheddar. A good quality cheddar. A good cheddar and a good gouda.

51:05What cheddar are you going to have? When we had Lugav Rosh, we were really fortunate to be able to get a seven-year-old David Stowe cheddar. So it's been matured for seven years. Seven years? Has it got like the crunch? Yes. And it's buttery in flavour and the crunch of the crystals. It is extraordinary. yeah so Davistow in Cornwall and we used to get the seven year that they used to mature just for us that is special very very special are you ready for something sweet? a tiny slice? well it doesn't have to be tiny but you know mum do you eat it with anything? is it creme fraiche? it's from creme fraiche in the fridge oh my word that looks nice this is Ruthie Rogers it's River Cafe what is it?

51:53I'll let mum say it Almond, lemon and a couple parts. Michelle, do you want a big bickle or a small bit? That's beautiful. Thank you. Perfect, thank you. A bit of cream. Yeah. You served in the French military for a year, did you? Yes, that's right, yeah. What was the food like there? And could you get involved? Mm-hmm. I did my 12 months military service. And that was to keep my French nationality. Right. Because I have dual nationality. at the time I didn't want to um to sort of waste a year as it as it was doing my military service because you'd already started your apprenticeship yeah that's right at the age of 16 right yeah so being called up to do your military service at the age of um 18 to 20 um that's when they they used to you used to get the letter um and I just thought no I'm in the middle of sort of learning I'm cooking, you know, why would I want to go and train to be a soldier?

52:52And I saw it as a waste of a year. And my mum and dad said, well, look, this is, you know, an opportunity to keep your French nationality. And dad said, well, look, if you want to do it, I can maybe have a word with a few people in the military circle and see if we can pull a few strings and get you not to waste a year. So I said, OK, in those conditions, let's do it. So I was called up and did my three months of military training. So learning how to shoot bivouac and march and all the other stuff just outside of Paris in Fontainebleau. So military training for three months in the barracks. And I can assure you that the food in the barracks in France was not the best.

53:38It was pretty dire. But then when we used to go out on bivouac, so wild camping or whatever you call it, with training sessions for several days, we would be given rations. Now, the rations for the French army were incredible. You had your tin of meat and spam, corned beef kind of stuff, and cassoulet and things like that. But you also had a 12 milliliter bottle of fire water, for want of another word. Noule, we called it in French. So it's basically alcohol. 40, 50 % proof alcohol. 40, 50 %? What were you meant to be using that for? To drink? Yeah. Was it for wounds or something? No, no, no, to drink.

54:29And there was a bar of chocolate. And bitter chocolate, not milk chocolate. which you think wow you know and let's not forget we always served wine as well of course did they have wine with lunch in the military yeah that's brilliant I mean French schools only stopped serving wine I think in the 70s oh my god to the children well not not the bambinos not the kids no the teachers were drinking wine oh teachers yeah they probably still do different cultures But in high school, would children be drinking wine at lunch? I'm pretty sure it was the 70s. Probably around 16, yeah. Sounds fun. I mean, I'm not advocating drinking and working or whatever, but that was the culture.

55:15So anyway, you had chocolate, and this fire water, I call it, was really, really strong, potent bottle of booze. So the rations were really okay, I thought. So we were given blanks as well to fire and all that, And so I traded in my blanks for the booze and for the chocolate. So for three or four days, I'd be in a drunken stupor because I wasn't really fond of just playing around being a soldier. So anyway, for three months, we did our military training. And then Dad managed to wangle it that I would go and cook at the Élysée Palace. So I ended up being part of the brigade that cooked for President Giscard d 'Estaing and President Mital.

56:03Amazing. So it wasn't a waste of time. No, there you go. Well, I wouldn't make this again. Oh, I think it's really nice. I think it's all right. It's nice. It's tasty. Yeah, but she calls it a cake. Hmm. I think your oven's off, Mum. I don't think it is, darling. It was properly cooked. Tastes really nice. I'd have a tiny bit more, actually. I like it. Okay. Yeah, it's got really nice taste. But it's almonds and lemon and lots of apples. Yeah, but the lemon in it is really... I like it. I like it too. Okay, good. It's really nice, Mum, and it's really hard having a two Michelin star. Yeah, a pastry chef.

56:39Yeah. Yeah. No, you know what's missing? What? A bit of Calvados. Oh, sure, sure. Before we let you go, Michelle Rouginia, what would be a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere? Hmm. My grandmother on my mother's side was a fabulous cook. I mean, really. Actually, my mum's a fabulous cook as well. I mean, really good cook. And Grandma Jacqueline, that's her name, she used to make the most amazing rabbit with pastis. You know pastis? Yeah. The aniseed drink that the French knock back, especially in the summertime. and she used to rabbit and pastis yeah you don't automatically think this is going to be no good so the rabbit was totally jointed because I adored this dish and the smell of it was so heady of aniseed and I'm not a huge aniseed fan and I don't like to drink pastis so I was really curious so I had to watch her make this because to eat it was divine and it used to fill the whole house with this wonderful aroma.

57:53So she joined the rabbit, got a whole rabbit, joined it down, put it in aluminium foil, similar to the papillot, yeah. Loads of fennel, garlic and onion, and then about half a bottle of pastis. And you think, this is bonkers. It's just going to be so overpowering and it's just not going to be nice. Olive oil, and it was wrapped up tightly in a papillot and baked in the oven. I can't remember if that was. I've had that for a long time. Any herbs? Which herbs? No, just fennel. But there was the fennel tops as well. Okay. All that lovely green. But that's even more kind of aniseed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

58:30Wow. I mean, I don't like aniseed, but I like fennel for some strange reason. I'm with you. And it would come out and then she would bring it to the table and just open up this. And it was just... And the rabbit was so tender, but moist. And then all the lovely juices. And you couldn't taste the pastis. It would just be sweet, fennel, and rich rabbit flavour. Gorgeous dish. How do you say junior in French? So you want the real story behind junior? So I wasn't christened junior. I was named after my uncle, Uncle Michel. Who did Le Gaffroche with your dad. That's right, yeah. And then went on to head up the Waterside Inn.

59:17And then Waterside Inn was passed on to my cousin. Anna. So I rented a flat, actually on Abbeville Road, from my uncle. He bought a house and put it into three flats. And so when I first came back from my travels, I rented a flat off him. And I was getting lots of letters addressed to Michel Roux, which I automatically opened, but they were not for me. They were for my uncle. Sometimes there were bank statements, because we banked in the same bank. Sometimes there were bills, sometimes private letters. So I put them together and just send them off to him or put them at the office for him to collect.

59:56And occasionally there were letters from his girlfriends. Yes. So the girlfriend letters. How many did he have? Girlfriends. Girlfriends with an S. Okay. So some of them were just charming letters and, you know, rather nice. Others were rather amorous and very cheeky. And you read them? Well, of course. Of course. Obviously. Well, yeah, I mean, they started off, you know, I don't know, my mon cher Michel or my darling Michel. So before you can be... Curiosity gets the better of you, doesn't it? I mean, what did me, anyway. So I'd have a giggle or whatever. But so I thought, this can't carry on.

1:00:36I've got to do something here. And what broke the camel's back, as it were, was one day a letter came in address to michelle rue and it was in a padded envelope and quite chunky so i opened it up uh and there was another letter but a pair of knickers in there as well oh my goodness me enough's enough enough is enough this is getting embarrassing so i from that day on i said right that's it i'm gonna tag junior onto my name so that this kind of thing is not going happen so I put Junior on all the correspondence from then on that is brilliant Michelle Rue Jr thank you so much for coming on Table Manners it's such a pleasure thank you it's really nice it is really nice the apple's got so much flavor I like it yeah it's really good you never have to good for a mega mark thank you no i'm relieved

1:01:51oh i love michelle and junior they say don't beat your heroes but i've met him and i loved him just as much as i always thought i would the food was really really nice mom also yeah and look like It's just really stressful when you're cooking for somebody that's so good. And he was very helpful. Yeah, the filleting. He held your hand along the way. Yeah, I learnt all about it. He got a knife in and checked the tent. Yeah, and taking the back of the fish out first is the best bit. Oh. Yeah, you take along the spine and there's no bones there. Got it. Yeah, so I've learnt a lot today. I will be taking some of that tart to the studio now.

1:02:27Okay. Okay, because it was really tasty. Well done. Thank you. Thank you to Michelle Rue Jr. who was such a fantastic guest. I haven't had a chef on for ages, have I? No. God, I love it. He loved food, didn't he? Yeah, don't we all? I wish I'd tasted that souffle suisse. Oh, we're going to find a way. I know, we're going to find a way of eating it. Right, we'll see you next week. Thanks so much for listening.

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