Nisha Katona

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1:05Hello and welcome to Table Manners. We are here in Clapham. Post the Mighty Hoopla. Well, post Lenny's fantastically iconic entrance. Anyone that missed Mighty Hoopla at the weekend, it was my first ever UK headline show and it was in Brockhall Park. We're very local and it's the most wonderful festival. It's a queer festival and it's just full of queer joy and it's very, very fun. I was very lucky to be headlining it and I thought the only place that this could work was at... What do you mean the only place? I don't know. I've got a very diverse following. Okay. So I feel like you have a huge queer following, Mum.

1:48Do I? And so I thought what I would give the people at Mighty Hoopla was a little slice of Lenny. So Lenny introduced me, pulled the mic off Tia Coffey, winner of RuPaul's Drag Race. Was she a winner? Yeah. I didn't even know. Yeah. I said you look gorgeous. Yeah, that's good. Anyway, and then you came out and you absolutely smacked it. Did I? And people were thrilled. Did I? Yeah. I looked a bit gormless. I don't think you did. Someone sent me a picture of me up on the screen and I thought I looked gormless. I thought you gave kind of Delia Smith when she was like, come on, if you think you're hard enough.

2:26You know, when she did that one in Norwich FC. It was giving Delia to me. Oh. that wasn't what I was going for I was going for Michael McIntyre really? yeah, a little kind of funny and engaging bugger off thank you, it was amazing, thank you to everyone that watched and apologies to Catherine and Streatham Hill who put on the funniest tweet, filming my closing song in her garden livid, that there was still music and that she could hear it in Streatham, I'm sorry You're very lucky she didn't even have to pay. I know. Well, I'm sorry, Catherine. Got to hear the great Jessie Wang. You must come over for a cup of tea and I'll apologise and sing in your face instead.

3:06I'm sorry. But anyway, it was amazing. We had Beth Ditto, a podcast guest. This is the magic of this podcast. We get Beth Ditto on the podcast. I tell her about me being a bit of an Uber fan jumping backstage. We develop a friendship, mainly because she loved the food, she loved you, I think she loved me. and then I can slide in the old DMs. I called it in, I said, Beth, come on stage and she killed it. She was fab. It was unbelievable. Very funny. She says she wants to be fed by us again. Okay, she can come. But enough about past guests. Can I just ask, anyone who's listening, what do people do for burns?

3:48Manuka. Culinary burns. I think, manuka. I'm not walking around with honey on my arm, darling. No, that would not. These manuka, like, they're like bandages. Oh, I've got one. They're supposed to be for burns. That's what I had when I... I keep on burning myself. That's what I do. Anyway. Someone at the door, darling. OK. We've got someone I've been desperate to have for ages. You are so excited. She's so beautiful. She's so clever. She's such a great cook. It's Nisha Katona.

4:23It's a pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. You're like a big ball of wonderful joy and energy. And you've brought your gorgeous daughter with you. I have. And you've just come from Birkenhead. I have. That's where you come from. I was born in Lancashire, which is up in the north of England. And Birkenhead is on the Wirral. Yeah. Oh, you're posh on the Wirral. Oh, excuse me. Did you used to go to Abbasau? No, now that's... Seriously, I feel so pathetically un-posh because I don't sail. Don't do any of that stuff. I've never been to Aberstock. So I'm still trying to get into the middle class as Lenny and I don't know how to do it.

5:03And you still live where you grew up? Yeah. So still in the same area. Oh, is that where you live? I live up there, yeah. Oh my goodness, I thought you lived in London. No, I am sort of half of the time I'm down here. So I've got a place down here as well because I'm between the two all the time. So I'm here sort of two, three days a week. so I've got restaurants and they're up and down the country so many restaurants yeah yeah so that's why and the truth is there are certain things that will always operate well so far are always operating outside of London so media's one of them do you know things like investment the banks are all down here so I do spend a lot of time you know wearing some of the hats down here but not the great British menu that's in the Midland you've had Ed on haven't you oh my life and Tom and Tom they are like my brothers I love them so much yeah I'm just a bit jealous of Ed.

5:55She wants to be one of the guest judges. I would just like to be a guest once. You should be a main judge. So I think that the next theme should be podcasts. Then I could move in. There's only yours. Of course there is, Nisha. There's only yours. So basically you'd shove Ed Gamble, who has an incredibly successful podcast around food. Okay, sure. that's a cracking thing it was a tricky theme it was the olympics and the paralympics this year yeah what incredible guest judges i didn't watch it no don't worry about it i'm sorry but i kind of feel like why am i not when i'm obsessed with food it is one of the best i think it's one of the best cooking programs yeah first of all it's so inspiring and excellent people try so hard but i just think they're very inspiring chefs and i love watching them and it's the camaraderie isn't it well it's really interesting because there's that whole genre of competition format that i'm not a massive fan of to be honest that sort of brutality and all of that and you know contrived competition but what people love about that is the fact that they're really encouraging and nurturing of each other people revel in that so as soon as it gets a bit edgy it kicks off on twitter you know how dare you raise your eyebrows at someone yeah did you tut it's which is really they do help each other yeah but it kind of makes you think the zeitgeist is changing a bit doesn't And it makes you think that people actually want to watch kind of brethren together, you know, chef brethren, as opposed to people having a go at each other.

7:27Yeah. The food is extraordinary. It's extraordinary food. And you get there at sort of seven. Well, for me, hair and makeup, blowtorch, sandpaper. Four hours. I kid you not. Yeah. And so you're in at like five o 'clock in the morning and then you start eating about half, eight, nine. And it's 14 courses right the way you finish it. It's hardcore, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, how do you prepare your stomach for a day like that? through your life by being a greedy bugger which is what i've done just love that's the thing isn't it is anyone on that show has got to really love you gotta love eating and eating's not just about quality it's also a bit about quantity isn't it so it works really it's great gig it's a great gig yeah yeah take it back to you growing up who was around your dinner table and what was a very memorable dish a memorable dish gosh from around the dinner table finished crispy pancakes that was my memorable dish i actually shit you not um so here's the thing i was born in this country i kept my parents what obviously indian immigrants came over late 60s as doctors as doctors you see and they were they thought they trained they trained in in agra so they their halls of residence overlook the taj mahal it's all right isn't it yeah but they came over and in those days it was enot powell that was saying come over we've got i know we've got a shortage of doctors but what happened is i'm going to just speak very frankly what happened in those days in the late 60s asian doctors could only really get jobs in the in the in the towns where no white doctors would go to work fascinating and so as a result you know so they they came to this town called which was a new town and we were the only indians in the village and um you know so i was born in Normskirk in West Lang, so I'm kind of just a brown English person, but I am a brown person, and so you were born into this really troubled time, you know, if you've ever seen This Is England or whatever, set in the 1970s, I mean, you know.

9:23Did you, yeah, did you, it was difficult. It was really, earliest memories, firebombs, earliest memories, bricks through windows, somebody used to scratch the word P-A-K-I into our car pretty much every other day, and you know, people that would stone my parents on the way to work with the very patients they would honestly it was it was terrifying but what's and this is i think why food matters so much and your questions are really interesting one because honestly about the only thing you had to offer was the the food that was actually really delicious you know and that was in the days of finished crispy pancakes and there was a chicken do you remember the chicken flavored one it was slightly curried yeah i don't think i oh you it's before you're it's way before you're fine but it was when frozen food started happening when people started getting fridges and freezers and you only had a tiny little freeze box so if you bought bird's eye or finders they slotted in nicely it just slotted in just about and it was a real treat so yours was the favorite your favorite was the chicken so we get the chicken because it had a little bit of spite my mother would still flip them open and add more garam masala to them she'd do that to a pot noodle she'd do it to anything but it was a funny thing because what was happening is that the the sort of british palate was just getting used to the vesta curries and you know the chicken curry inside you don't know about vesta no this is it came dehydrated and you poured hot water on it and it was a curry turned into a curry like only apollo 13 is what they would have yeah was it tasty yeah so it was No, it's like a dried curry.

11:01No, but like... Possibly the sauce is more like a thicker cup of soup kind of thing. And then you'd make some rice. And then you'd possibly boil in the bag of rice. Did it have rice with it? I don't know that it had rice with it. So the irony is, we didn't ever have them, what would us be in Indian? So we knew about them. The hallowed realms of Vestra, I'd have loved that, to be honest. But no, we were having the proper stuff. Did your parents kind of reject their heritage with the cuisine that they were cooking you to try and... To blend in. Do you know, they couldn't... What was interesting is, in a way, they did so.

11:38They would make, my mum would make, sausage and mash, whatever. But she would always put a little bit of turmeric into the mash. She'd always put a little bit of spice into the sausage. Pork chops, she would pressure cook them with garlic and ginger. which is a big deal because in those days to get garlic and ginger we had to drive to Manchester in those days to buy turmeric you had to go to Boots the apothecary and buy it in tiny little bottles I'm showing you sort of urine sample size bottles yeah you know it was in my olive oil in a supermarket you bought in the chemist yes that's right yeah you know and that was not long you know you think about when the women got the vote it wasn't long ago was it it's The same with spices.

12:18So they did, because they knew, well, it's not just that you couldn't get the ingredients. So if you were cooking a meat curry, you don't just go and get, you know, diced shin beef or whatever. You know, you have to get lamb that's specially cut for curry. You go to an Asian butcher and say, can you cut lamb for curry? So they were having to make English food, but they would always, in my view, adulterate it. And as a child, you would beg your mother, if you're bringing friends home from school, because eventually I made some. Don't put the turmeric in the mash. Do not do anything spicy. And the irony is I've got girls, they're 20 and 23 now.

12:51They're pretty much menopausal now, my girls. But, you know, growing up, it was the same thing. It's such a funny thing. You know, they would kind of beg you if their mates were coming home from school, please don't make butter chicken. And it's all the kids would want, you know. It's so funny. I remember when I went to Alpa Kotecha's house and I remember the dinner. It was fried egg and chips. And I doubt they were having that every night. and like it was probably because Alper had said to her don't do please don't do yeah did she put turmeric on the chips no they were delicious chips but they were homemade but like and it was I remember it being very delicious but yeah I wonder whether Alper was thinking yeah egg and chips is almost an Indian meal oh is it yeah so fried egg is a big Indian thing and chips is a big thing but we'd always put turmeric on the chips really okay I never knew about turmeric on chips did you no So turmeric, with it being a root, with potatoes, honestly, it's synergistic.

13:45It deepens the earthiness of root veg. Oh, wow. So it's not just, it's not about turmeric. The last thing turmeric's about is colour, to be honest. It's about that earthy note. So if you add it to potatoes before you cook them, particularly fried potatoes or roasties, it really deepens the depth. and it almost and because it deepens the depth you taste the sweetness of the potato more it's really interesting how clever yeah would that apply kind of for any root vegetable then it does we we would not so things like mouli which is another root vegetable we'd use a lot of you you wouldn't put it on that because what you want from there is pungency and sweetness so it's so fascinating it's what do you want from that root vegetable what do you want from that vegetable and turmeric does certain things and it's the earthiness too much and it gets bitter but it's that that's a really easy and it's so good for you you know but what would be your special meal if it was someone's birthday or it was a celebration or a feast day or yeah so that would be indian at home it would always be indian and it's that and absolutely seminal would be do you know puris or luchis they're oh yeah deep fried love them they're dead nice they're they feel really um they feel like a sexy canapé kind of like they're they're exciting yeah so this is a this is a kind of a flat bread obviously it's unleavened chapati flour rolled into a disc and then you deep fry it and it puffs up and it's massive and it's delicious and so that is one thing so you can and they're fried in key um so that's why we've got the worst we've got the worst health problems honestly with indian because with some have you well yeah because keep frying in key there's no need to be doing that but that that party food is seriously heavy and then we would have a something like a hydrabadi chicken curry which is a chicken curry based on south indian spices which is curry leaves mustard seed coconut you know so those would be those kind of really head in this that's kind of party food from in my memory but you know again you know you you woke up smelling those things and you knew people were coming over in the evening so and did you try did your mum try to make friends with neighbours like making samosas for them yeah yeah yes well They're probably too ignorant to understand it.

15:59They'd rather have painkillers and, you know, something for their UTI. My parents, so because, and this is... Were they both GPs? They were both GPs. But, you know, this is, I have to say, I think Britain is uniquely open-minded when it comes to the way the world cooks. I know that because of, you know, because the restaurants that I've got. It's been, it's taken this long for an Indian restaurant to become a chain. That's ludicrous, isn't it? It's ludicrous. It's the first chain. You're right. And it's bonkers. But look how popular you, Dishoom. Like, I mean, that's like, it's where all the Americans want to go.

16:35Which is amazing. And that's London. But that's a really interesting thing. Because I honestly do think, Jessie, London is a different country. It's an entirely different country. Because you're a nation. So in London, you have an entirely multicultural, integrated population, which is not necessarily, you know, it's not representative of the rest of the world. Yeah, and I don't imagine people from Southall are going to De Shum. No. To be honest. It's great, you know, because it is right that, you know, you've got tourists coming in, people that are inquisitive about food. London, in my view, is the best city in the world when it comes to food.

17:07I think so. Isn't it? Yeah. Well, you're on Charlotte Street, aren't you? I'm on Charlotte Street. That's a fabulous place to eat. It's a sweet street. Is it Mowgli or Mowgli? Mowgli, whatever you want it to be, to be honest. What is it, though? Mowgli. It isn't. Is it? So it's a Bengali word that means feral child. it's nothing to do with Kipling at all it's from our language were you a feral child? no but when I so I started Mowgli weirdly enough so my life I was a child protection barrister for 20 years I know! in your realm because she was up in the north how long did you train as a barrister?

17:43and was that the route that your family were very happy for you to take the doctor or a barrister So yeah, well, Barrister is slightly second to Doctor. Doctor is the ultimate, really. I know that. My brother's a Doctor. Exactly. So it's ridiculous. And it is, it's this, the truth is, you know, sort of as immigrants, you're sort of raised to think if you do not work harder than everyone else and achieve more than everyone else, you will fall off the face of Britain. You know, this is honestly sort of how you're raised. Have you got brothers and sisters? I have. I've got a brother five years old and he is a Doctor.

18:16Yeah. And he's a Doctor. so I I did law I went and did work experience in a barrister's chambers I was working in a solicitors in the summer whatever delivered a brief to a set of chambers in Liverpool and I didn't know what a barrister is you did obviously walked in delivered this brief and I can't tell it was like scales fell from my eyes and I just thought oh my god there is a job like this this is so great it's exciting it gripped me and I nicked a little piece you know of brief tape do you remember barrister's briefs pink brief tape used to be wrapped up in tape yeah they're always wrapped up in red I think.

18:48So I nicked a piece and that was like, you know, that was my charm and it kind of got me through to do law. Where did you go to university? I went to, well, I started by doing psychology at Liverpool Uni of and then I transferred and went and did law at John Moores. So I did three years there. In Liverpool. And now you're, are you a chancellor there? Oh yes, and I'm the chancellor there. Isn't that so sweet? She's the chancellor of John Moores. Very sweet of it. Oh wow. You just get to wear a very big frock. And hand out. And you're doing speech. Yeah, but it's amazing because I love those kids I mean they're kids whatever they are kids because they're less than 60 years of age but I have such a heart for them you know it's an amazing thing to go back to the uni and do that and to be in that role so you were in barrister chambers in Liverpool in Liverpool yeah so you then qualify whatever you come down to London and you do in those days you had to as a barrister you had to dine 40 times so to become a barrister dine it's called dining in the rooms of court is that like the Harry Potter bit you have to have your meal I like those that food is good that food is so good I used to do clerking did you?

19:50yeah so I just like write notes for solicitors in Peckham amazing did you used to go into the inns of court the barristers I was really happy whenever they put me with like the fun barristers and they were like we should go for lunch that is good food isn't it so tell me about dining so dining is historically it was the way that you learnt the law is that you would go down to the inns of court and you'd go to the dining chamber and you could be sitting next to a high court judge and next to somebody junior so that is how you would learn the law is just by sitting next to him, dining with, and eating with people that were practicing.

20:21Network. And? Network a little bit. And network a little bit. So they'd know who you are, I think. Exactly. So they know who you are. And it's just, you know, I mean, this is called table manners, but it's about just developing, it's ridiculous, isn't it, but developing those graces and the way that you speak and the way that you, you know. So as Baris says, there's some really interesting rules, like you never, you have to call each other by your first name. So I remember on my first day on my feet, they call it on your feet when you get your wig and you go on and you stand there for the first time and you're up against somebody that's you know 30 years senior and eight foot taller than you and you've got to call him bill and for someone raised like me where you would call them mister or auntie or auntie exactly right that was a real leveler it was very interesting it is with the aim of you feeling equal so that there is no disparity you don't go in there feeling smaller because you've got to be able to argue against someone like that so it's all of those little things you learn the etiquette that's fascinating yeah it's a it's a whole other world and it's not even as though it's just token it can you see just in that by actually calling you by your first name you also as barristers do not shake hands you'll never shake hands with another barrister because again you are supposed to be completely equal and it is this sorority fraternity so you never shake hands and you so already you can see that it is just psychologically um getting in you into the place where if you had to go head to head with this person in 10 minutes you could without any fear you know it's dead interesting and then that dining thing you know you you sit and again the food is very good the meals last for ages because that's when you are supposed to be discussing work and the rules are nothing is discussed outside you know it's really open language so so that's historically where the dining came from what would be your like top meal in the dining chain would you call them dining halls the halls yeah yeah yeah what's a really memorable dish from that that you were like really looking forward to when you came down to london can i tell you i went the other day i was the other day and i recommend you do go in a temple go to the dining hall i was a member of lincoln's inn and that is the most sort of harry potter looking yeah it is stunning um but i was in in a temple a friend of mine amazingly he's a bencher there and that's how old i am isn't that You know, for your friends.

22:32What's a bencher? A bencher is one of the most senior. You know, she's a silk and she sits at the top. She's a Liverpool girl. Sam Hillis, she's fantastic. Anyway, roast beef. But I can't tell you, it was perfectly rare, wasn't it, Beanie? I took my daughter. The amazing roast beef. Crispy, fantastic, perfect potato. It was a roast dinner. But, you know, you could select all the bits. But they were handmade. And then he brought out a creme brulee that he'd made in the back. you know it's it's the most delicious it's and it's cheap it is it's not expensive yeah it's really really good food so i recommend it i think i may train as a barrister you don't even have to do that i think you can go it i'm sure you can go in and dine well i just rock up and have a you could rock up i don't know we have we should we eat yeah we can do we should um yes

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24:37so why did you call your restaurant mogli well the funny thing is i wanted to call it actually mongoose so i had three names in my mind so when i started um the restaurant 10 years ago yeah it was when it sounds a bit mad but you know social media was kind of taking off in a big way then you know Instagram wasn't really a thing Twitter was happening and and Facebook was a big thing community wise then so I all I knew is that I wanted to build this restaurant with these dishes in it um and I put and I sort of put the menu out to to Facebook and just said look I want to do a restaurant and these are the dishes how much would you pay for these dishes and very collaboratively sort of Facebook people got involved and kind of vicariously watched this journey and so when it came to naming it I even put the name out and said look there are three names I'm interested in Mongoose, Mowgli and Rickshaw which one would you like and resoundingly they came back with Mowgli.

25:32Were you disappointed with that? I was very disappointed because I wanted Mongoose and I also wanted it was my third choice to be honest the good thing about it and the reason I chose the name Mowgli is because it was a pet name I had for my girls so my girls back then were about 10 and 13 they were young yeah and suddenly you know as a barrister I was there all the time I was home you'd get home from court I'd cook for them I was there pick them up whatever as soon as you start a business what was fascinating is is it's like adopting a child it takes over your life and I needed them to be invested in it yeah because my husband is a classical guitarist plays all over the world you know but they would never ask if he's not there where is he why is he not here there's no demand you know why is he not cooking for why is he not picked us up but as a mother crazily enough you know if i wasn't there because i physically built my first restaurants you know so i'd finish in court because i had to earn the money um then you know wig and gown off hard hat and boots on and i would physically build my first restaurants and the only time i saw the girls when they came in to do homework on a building site but then them having a restaurant that's named after them, them then naming the dishes, they named the dishes, they chose the logo.

26:45It means, oh, my life. That looks great, Mum. Heaven. It means they're invested and they feel proprietorial towards it, which is amazing. Thank you, Mum. I can only imagine that being a barrister is really full on. Yeah. Do you want to help? Yes, sorry. Do you want me to help? No. Because that's what I'm used to doing. You can serve up. Am I starting just eating? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you tell me what this is? It's lamb. Yes? It's a recipe from New York Times, the David Tannis. And it's supposed to be aromatic oven spit roast lamb. So it's supposed to taste like it's spit roast. Yeah. But you do it in the oven and who knows what it's like.

27:31It's beautiful already. It's beautiful. Beautiful. Is it nice? I'm going to just eat the bits off the table here just to really get those in my mouth. And I will feed your daughter. There's loads. Would you like some rice? Do you know what I dream of is a proper Jewish chicken matzo? Because I keep listening to your thing. If you'd have said you'd like a Jewish meal, I would have loved a Jewish meal. But you need to say it. Do you know why? Because my mother-in-law, so my husband's Hungarian. Do you need salt? It's perfect, isn't it? Are you sure? Oh, what a fun. I put a little bit on. I wasn't going to say it.

28:07You looked at me. Yep. You think it's under salted? She does. You can see it in their eyes. Jessie criticises me for everything I cook. I like a lot of salt. I like it much. I love salt. You're being a wonderful guest, by the way. Salt makes everything happy. Yeah. And a little bit of sugar as well. Yeah, exactly. A little bit of sugar and salt. So your husband is Hungarian. No, I'm Hungarian. The reason I say that is because their food is phenomenal. You know, that whole Eastern European way of cooking is, it was a revelation to me completely. And it is amazing. And his mother cooks, they're not Jewish, but his mother cooks Jewish food for family.

28:48So she's a cook and she cooks for some Jewish families in Frankfurt. And that whole thing with the beetroot and the horseradish and the good soups and the clear soups. I'm interested in how that worked out for you your mother-in-law being a cook and then you being like some hardcore business woman boss lady chef, extraordinaire was she like this is the right woman I mean you weren't doing it then were you well should I tell you I can say this because she doesn't speak English she never heard bloody hated me now I'll tell you why I'm going to talk as though no one's listening that's what my husband said before I came.

29:30He said, just talk us though. I was studying in Lincoln's Inn. He was studying at the Royal Academy of Music. And we met in the same hall of residence. But they are a guitar duo, so they are twins that play together. And the aim was... His brother. His brother. He was supposed to go back to Germany and live with his mum. Him and his brother. Because he met me, he then was going to move to England. We were going to get married. He was going to move to England. And as a result, his twin brother was also going to have to stay in England because they practiced like eight hours a day you ruined it I do not blame her for hating me so on our wedding day she wore black oh my god and she sobbed in the bogs oh my god that's amazing that's amazing and um yeah so she sobbed in the toilets and the poor thing and I totally get why I totally you know I totally get why I had to totally prove myself so I learned Hungarian I cook Hungarian food I literally would have her live with me.

30:29I adore, now we adore each other. Now because we've weathered 25 years. Honestly, and that is not easy. It just isn't, you know. I think she appreciates that because Zoli's parents put up when Zoli was, his name is Zoltan, when he was very young. Good name. It's a strong name. If I had another one, I'd have, that's good. Do you like the name Zoltan? That's really cool. It's like a Marvel baddie's name, isn't it? it's cool beans there's a bone here you could chew we're bone chewers sorry what there's loads of bones what like are we talking chicken drumstick anywhere how are your teeth smashes gorgeous good tea maybe eating my own teeth maybe because you've been doing the bones because of the bone chewing I'm getting a little bit more calcium but honestly we give our teeth a hard time and it because you honour every part honestly chewing but eating with your hands yeah and bone in meat is is how the majority of the world eats and the meat that's closest to the bone is the most tender it's the stuff yeah it's the sweetest because it's up against the bone it's not done a lot of work it's just been sitting there sitting against its bones i want to know how you went from being a barrister to opening restaurants what was the beginning of that was there a particular case you're like fuck this no but while i was a barrister i used to teach indian cooking so what i realized so Having turned my back on Indian food all my life because I was embarrassed by it, came a point when, you know, I was sort of whatever, early 30s.

32:03And it's actually the easiest food to cook for a big gathering. And it's dead delicious and people love it. See, I never do it because I never think I'm doing it right. Yeah, me too, I'm anxious. Can I tell you my little thing that happened to me that basically I realised, it was a real Archimedes moment, I realised that there is a three-spice formula behind all curries. So all curries are predicated. Here's my theory and it works. honestly on three spices two of which never change right so the two that never change are turmeric and chili and that third spice changes depending on the genre of ingredient that you're cooking so if you're cooking a meat curry turmeric chili garam masala if you're cooking a fish curry turmeric chili nigella seeds if it's root veg it's cumin seeds so that third spice changes but generally it's those three spices if you're doing root veg with your meat yeah would you do cumin and the lead the lead um ingredient there would be the meat so you're in the realms of karam masala okay so it's really and once you realize honestly i'm not it it's really that simple and the reason you know it's that simple is because it's simple when you're confident and you know what you're doing yeah but it's almost and i i it shouldn't be that indian food is this kind of dna born dark art and i think many of us indians are quite loathed to give away our recipes because we think we're giving away our very soul.

33:23Do you know what I mean? So I, but I'm second generation. I will be gone in another 20 years or whatever. And it's so important that these, this way of cooking and these spice formulas are kept alive. Have you done that in the cookbook? Yes. So that's in, so I've got a few cookbooks. Which one is the simple one? So the spice formula, that's in one called the spice tree, but there's also the 30 minute mogli, which is nothing ever to, honestly, in India. That's what I'm going to do. But because my grandmother's kitchen was a veranda with a stove powered by cow manure, which is the kind of food that you use there.

33:5630 minutes worth of fuel, she had to feed 10 people. And that is why Indian food, honestly, at its most rudimentary sense, in its most rudimentary sense, is the simplest, quickest food that you can eat. It's honestly, and we don't think that. And you are so right, because you open an Indian cookbook and you could literally lose weight reading the ingredients. And you just think, stuff this. You have to go and shop, you have to grind, roast. That just doesn't happen. And that's why I became quite evangelical about two things. One is showing people how easy it is to cook. And secondly, about building a restaurant that shows you how we actually eat at home.

34:27You know, we don't cook with cream. Cream is what you leave in the milk to give babies. You know, you don't cook with key. It's really healthy life. So that's why I became very passionate about debunking lots of these things that people think about Indian food while I was still practicing as a lawyer. What's your favorite curry? it's a prawn curry a prawn curry a prawn curry that is made right you've got very specific because we don't do you use tomato in there you do yeah you do a little bit of tomato just a little bit but it's prawns with the head on and the eggs in so your whole prawns always shell on got it and it's found so you don't devein them or anything well you get the small ones and they're not devein you know sometimes they're tiny it's just when you said eggs in I was like okay did that freak you out a little bit but I'm like I'm pretty...

35:16Well, this is a foodie podcast. We're going to get down and down and into the ovaries. No, I like this. And I'm going to bloody do this and send you a picture. Right, excellent. Let's go. But you don't have... Okay, so let's just use a nice... Steve A. ...from the beginning. Whatever prawns you like, you start a little bit of oil in a pan. I'm talking two tablespoons. It can be olive oil. I love olive oil. You fry nigella seeds. So a little teaspoon of nigella seeds and a chopped green chilli. Wherever you use nigella seeds, you use green chilli. They go hand in hand. because nigella tastes of earth and dust it sounds terrible but it does peppery you need the chlorophyll open windowness of green chili right so you fried your nigella and your green chili how much a tea how many chilies one and mild i don't do hot food i don't believe in hot food so one while big banana chili and how big a teaspoon or tablespoon of nigella a teaspoon you only need You fry them until they sizzle.

36:11And then into that, you put a little half tin of tomatoes. And here's the magic ingredient. You put in a good heaped teaspoon of Coleman's English mustard. Oh, I kid you not. Those two ingredients, Jesse, together, literally will change the world. Tomatoes and English mustard. That is a proper Indian Bengali thing. Oh, my God. This is magical. For a tin of tomatoes, a teaspoon of Coleman's English mustard. Little bit of sugar, little bit of salt always. Then you go in. It's probably an eight-minute dish. You go in with your prawns, whatever kind, and you go in with a good cup of frozen peas. Heat through, and you're done.

36:54Can you see? That is how we eat. And I can't tell you how delicious that is. Oh, my God. So that thing about mustard, many, many years ago, hundreds of years ago, before the Indians had chilies, the Portuguese brought chilies to India. before we had chilies we used to bring heat to food in two ways one was with black pepper and one was with mustard oh right so mustard seeds ground down between two stones is how we brought that zing so that whole english mustard thing that mustard thing is a properly indian bengali ingredient but that so what i've just described that tomato english mustard nigella it's dead simple um it you could do that with chicken you could do it with butter beans you could do with cauliflower whatever it's just a great foundational source but there is something that dives straight into your endorphins you asked me my favorite curry there is something about that combination of english mustard and tomato that just goes straight to your endorphins i love that and do you use english mustard that's made up in the jar or powder you ask such great questions you're a proper foodie because you're right it's got to be the jar the powder is too bitter okay so the powder if you make that a pistubiter you will not get the same flavor and i'm there's there are very few brands that do it but for some reason culmans has got exactly the right balance of sweet salt and heat jessica i'm really excited about that it's so interesting i'm excited about it being eight minutes it's honestly as long if your prawns are cooked it's as long as it takes a piece to cook in is it very hot would your children eat it's not hot at all my children do not do chili at all i do not do chili at all my auntie doesn't do chili it's bad for my tummy do you know what apparently it's not so here's the thing i've got crohn's disease and it's really interesting i went to see a consultant about what kind of food is good or bad for crohn's and it's very interesting he was saying basically it's just not food dependent you know many many consultants will say it doesn't it doesn't make any odds what you're eating yeah some of it irritated i wish that was the case because then I could avoid it but it's not it's there any cure for it in your there's not a cure but you can pack it into remission how do you manage it by not how do you manage it is by honestly stress is a big thing so you know you just have to pick your battles in life you've chosen two incredibly stressful jobs which ones are they barrister and then opening restaurants like you are brave but you know honestly you're amazing no I'm not Because, you know, it's like you.

39:26I bet you feel this way. I feel as though I've really not worked a day in my life, honestly. So as a barrister and you appreciate this learning, is it not the most fascinating? You open a brief and it is a privilege to be involved in these lives. That's what I've always felt. Yeah. I think to get a good outcome for children, and family law is all about children, is just the best thing on earth, to be honest. I would like to ask you what your last supper would be. I wonder whether the prawn curry will be in there or maybe not um it starter main pud drink of choice starter yeah a pint of prawns oh yeah prawns just a big platter you know a kind of tapas-y platter of massive prawn shell on that's what I would want with any kind of um a lemon on the side a lemon no you could have mayonnaise something I don't need mayonnaise you don't need it they're both they're both fairly um you don't want it like i don't really get the mayonnaise with all that's doing is adding a bit more lube to the prawn it doesn't you know what i mean it doesn't need it no just there's no flavor in mayonnaise lemon on the other hand that is stunning what is it well who knows okay um i know what it is um actually i was going to put those basil seeds on that we had.

40:44Oh, the Ravinda. The gelatinous ones. You know, from Jekyll. Have you eaten there? No, I haven't. Oh, my God, you would love her. I should totally go. I know. You would love her as well. Have you ever met her? I've met her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's gorgeous. So it isn't anything she's done. So it's a rhubarb tiramisu, which I slightly made up, but I saw someone once made one and I couldn't find the recipe. Did you make it up? Yeah. I think it's going to be delish and I think next time potentially you could put cardamom in the cream that's what I'm saying do you feel it needs it have you done anything in the cream she's actually not even eaten it no but now I will eat it and I will feel that there is something missing she's done that to my head I've fucked it that's what she's done do you know what I mean you are a complete monster I'm going into this oh you probably don't want any then do you yes I do she's throwing a teddy so you're going to have really good prawns big meaty ones or little babies is that too much I like a medium prawn.

41:43A medium. If they're too big, then I feel... You want the sweetness of the prawn. The bigger the prawn, the less sweet it is. So I want the sweetness. I'll just have a tiny bit. Tiny. Thank you. Okay. Okay. That would be the starter. Yeah. Can I also get some clams on the side? Absolutely. How would you like them? I would like them boiled, like you get at, say, Balthazar or Sheiky or whatever, or Scots. Do you know the... No. Not clams. Welks. Welks? I love a whelk. I don't think I've ever had one. Have you never had a whelk? Well, it's like a fishy chewing gum, really. Oh, no. Is it like oysters?

42:20I love oysters. Don't you like oysters? A fishy chewing gum. You're not selling it to me, Rachel. Oh, gosh, but that's what it is. And if you like that kind of thing, if you like a kind of fishy chewing gum, you want to go for a whelk, and I like a fishy chewing gum, yeah? I'm going to try that. Okay, so I would like a bit. This is my seafood platter going on. Seafood platter. Yeah. Mains. The thing is, you know if it's your last supper, it really has got to be a roast dinner for me. For a last supper. Yeah. That is just an array of everything that is fantastic about food. I think you've got your Yorkshire puds.

42:54Yeah. You've got your Sweden carrot mash. I love that. You've got a very, it's got to be such a good roasty. You know, a really good roasty where almost, you know, the edges of the roasty are coming away from the potato. Because they're so heavy with fat. Are you adding turmeric to your roasties? Or cardamom. I wouldn't cook. Yeah. Have we tasted this? What do you think? Are we happy? I think it's nice. I think it could have done with a bit more sugar and cardamom in it. That's all I'm going to say. Yeah, I don't think so. Okay. It's very clean. It's really tasty. This is fabulous. I did just finish it.

43:28And it's... It's yon. And so the sponge fingers have got sugar all over them. What's wrong with me? Am I hungover? The rhubarb has got sugar in it. Well, pregnant. Jesus. and it's not sharp at all beautiful no cardamom couldn't be nice cardamom would have really messed it up I think oh you are you I think oh I think it's a sledgehammer to a lovely little warm of that yeah I'll have some more no don't don't don't humour me if it's too much it's very light it's really light and beautiful so main is a roast what is your meat beef because I was raised not allowed to eat beef so it's hindus My parents were Hindus.

44:08And we weren't allowed to eat beef. So as soon as I got to uni, I literally would buy the cheapest steaks from Asda every day and inject them into my eyeballs. But random down my throat, you know. Do you love steak? I just love what I was not allowed to eat. We didn't discuss the fact that you've just hosted a dog show for the last two days, right? Oh my goodness me. What? How do you have time? Have you got a dog? I've got three dogs. Three? Can I tell you what animals I've got? Go on. Yes. I've got three dogs. I've got four pygmy goats. Do you like animals, you two? Yeah. You don't? No, I've got two cats.

44:46Okay, yeah. What two cats? But we live in London, so you can't imagine being able to have them. That's a good thing. Can I see your pygmy goat? I like the sound of that. Yeah, do you want to see the pictures? I've got four ponies. Thank you very much for asking. Whereabouts do you live? I've got two dogs. Two dogs. And a chicken called Boo Boo. Who's your favourite? so these are the goats last night oh they're cute yeah I could have a few of them you'll appreciate the names Lenny Truffle, Kimchi Sushi and Pickles oh I like those names so those are the goats that was Beanie and Goose that's Goose that's Bear and that's David these are my dogs David David so that people were taking more seriously it's a solid english rather than wearing glasses yeah it's like an account just how did we even get onto that sorry because you've done a dog show so what's amazing is that yes it was a charity dog show so there's a local children's hospice and we raised 106 grand over two days for this um good for you but you know it's amazing because what happened is about eight years ago my David dog went to the entry dog show we were just driving past, we nipped in, he's a little mongrel and he came back with supreme champignon what sort is David?

46:11he's a mixed breed of whippet greyhound saluki what's a saluki? they're beautiful looking they look like a greyhound but with long hair on their ears they're the most beautiful dog you could imagine I may have a photo but anyway my mum on her kitchen wall didn't have any of our wedding photos or graduation photos she had a picture of David with his rosette and his supreme champignon banner and I realised so my mum because my dad died you know many years ago and she David was her dog and when she died he came to me but you realise how important these animals are to people you know she was honestly she kept him going he kept her going you know having that sense of purpose she's not and also two years ago you know she was she was 80 something and she was she had a great life and she went in her sleep which is amazing the way she went the way she would have wanted to go which is amazing really massive hypertension she chewed tobacco all her life drank like a fish she she had a good hammered her body you know what i mean so she she really did live a good life you know and and it's crazy but you know mogli's like a testimony to her those those are her recipes her and my dad's recipes so she lives on she lives on in every way i've got a really strong faith so she's probably watching this thinking i'm being really inappropriate are you are you hindu well interesting i was raised a hindu but i'm actually a christian so i've got a really strong faith but i was raised as a hindu and as a hindu you're kind of raised to believe that all got all paths to one or whatever do you know what i mean it's very pantheistic in that way so but i think it makes you very spiritual being raised as a hindu because it's founded on lots of superstitions so things like um if you ever see a shoe overturned it means you're going to have an argument if you see one star in the sky yeah it means something is going to happen to your sibling it was really you were bound as a child bound by these superstitions it used to be that we if you sneeze, this is bonkers but if you sneeze before you're about to go out you've got to sit down for 10 minutes I kid you not, you can't say the word, achar means pickle, you can't say the word achar before a journey pickle I know, you've called your pick me goat pickles, I know, you're in trouble I know, that's luckily why I kind of uncoupled myself from the superstition.

48:41But it is very interesting. And if you go to India, all the taxis will have a little deity. In our house, we had deities everywhere. There was a deity for everything. So you are raised feeling very much that there is something else. So when did you turn to Christianity? Well, I remember just thinking, I had some exams or something coming up, I was probably 15, thinking it'd be quite handy to have a little pray now. Which one of these 400 gods should I pray to? because I went to a Christian school and I'd heard about this you know whatever Christ or whatever and I thought is he one of them I said to my mum is he you know and she said yeah he's one of them that's fine if you want to pray to him so I'd seen him he was blonde blue eyes he looked the type I thought I'll pray to him so I started just getting real you know I felt like I just needed some a belief in something and I might and here's the thing there may not be a God but and it makes me the biggest fool in the world but I have found it to be so useful do you know what I mean that you don't you know in your darkest do you mean by useful I mean in your darkest you never feel alone it's mad it's like a psychosis isn't it I suppose you never feel alone you've got something you in your and I think it really helps and I found it in business as well to know that things happen for a reason I think when you're founded in that it really helps you never feel as though there's such a thing as failure you know because I wanted to be a doctor and then I wanted to be in these chambers and I wanted to do this and you were thwarted and doors close for a reason and just in that little sentence for a reason it might be that there is a mind somewhere and it might not be that it's you know that what I believe in but in that way I found it really useful and also you know when you lose people just believing that there is something beyond what we can see and touch I think is is sanity you know in your your darkest grieving moment but I think having that that belief that there is you know that the right doors will open things happen for a reason something's watching you back there is a plan for your life oh my gosh that's what just makes you sort of skip into the world really and I might be completely deluded I completely accept that I think it's a beautiful way to live your life yeah blithely and kind of innocently stupid.

50:54Tell us about your charity work in India. Well, we just, it's amazing. When I started Mowgli, I started the Mowgli Trust at the same time. So I, you know, for every dish that we serve, we know we give a certain amount to charity. So we've now given over two million through the trust. But what's amazing, it is amazing only because I just think anyone, I didn't have any business sense when I came to build this restaurant. Honestly, there were no role models in hospitality. Where was the first one? Liverpool, Liverpool and you know I opened Mowgli which is a primarily kind of plant-based menu in a city where they were just getting the dirty burger movement so and I just remember thinking that you know if I've been lucky enough you know blessed enough to be given this little building then then I should be giving something back so I started then where every restaurant's got a house charity and we're building two schools in India at the moment two girls schools developing two girls schools you know where they're still being betrothed at the age of eight where they're still you know female foeticide and things like that so it's about education and girls if they're having the period they can't go to school if they are ill in any way they can't go to school you know all of these things um mean that they miss sort of 50 of their education time so it's just um being able to work with the teachers there and it's in my hometown in barranassie so and that sounds all very worthy and I'm not saying that but what's I think just what's dead interesting about it is that people there'll be people there out in the world that are better business people than me that all you need is a passion for something that uniquely fills a gap in the market and you kind of just urge people to get out there and take your you know rhubarb tiramisu to the market and create jobs and start supporting charities it's just been the most amazing journey in that way you know I never thought that building a restaurant could make you feel so completely fulfilled or actually useful yeah to the world around you oh interesting you know it is because you don't think about that in the in the hospitality industry necessarily when i approached it you know we came lenny you and i we came from a job where every day you are thinking about how to make that child's life better it's profound yeah and it's deep and it is nourishing for your soul isn't it and then to go into basically selling curry you think how am i going to get this sense of purposeful nourish fulfillment you know and that's when you when you kind of graft onto your business some kind of charitable aim it means that when the job becomes very easy as it is in a way you know it's never mundane because you're out there doing something better you're you're so fantastic to listen to i'm really inspiring no you're amazing saying It's been such a pleasure to have you.

53:36And you're just quite incredible. And I think that your daughter must just be so proud. Don't even go there. You two bring the best out, honestly, in all of your guests. It's been an absolute joy. It really has. I feel very lucky being here. Thank you for being so open. It's so fun when guests like you come on and just make it wonderful. Did we get into bowel habits? It wasn't that open. Do you want to? Shall we?

54:14Nisha Katona. What a gem. You're pleased with that one, aren't you, Mum? Absolutely loved her. Mum was so desperate to have Nisha on, and I'm so glad that I've met her. She's amazing. Isn't she a warm, beautiful... How beautiful is she? She's absolutely hot stuff. Yeah. And also she's warm and wonderful and has wonderful stories and is so generous with her stories and has done so much. She needs to be on Dragon's Den, I'm sorry. But I now know how to make a prawn curry in about 10 minutes. Yeah, I think I'm going to go to Soper's now and go and get some fish. Love her. Have you got all the spices that you need?

54:53Yeah, but I've got too many apparently. Have you got a green chilli? No, I can go and get that. What was it? Green chilli and nigella seeds. and mustard English mustard who knew that's amazing who knew about English mustard in a curry I'm going to try this with my kids do you think they'll like it they love prawns do they like curry they will because I believe Anisha thank you so much to Anisha Katona for coming on the podcast absolutely adored that and your food was delish today mum that lamb, was the lamb easy to make Yeah. It was really good. Did you put it up really high? You start it for half an hour.

55:34It's on very, very, as high as you can go. Yeah. Then I turned it down to 150 for three hours. Okay. And it's supposed to be aromatic. Actually, I don't think I put enough salt on the lamb because I misread it. And I should have put the salt, rubbed it on the skin. But I tell you, it uses six ounces of butter. And you keep basting it and basting it. But the butter, it all ends up in the bottom of the pan. It's garlic, butter, cumin seeds, coriander seeds, pimenton, which I'd never heard of. And I bought it. That's kind of like paprika. It's like paprika, but mild. And it had paprika as well. And garlic.

56:17So six cloves of garlic. You make it all into a paste with the butter. Then smear it all over the lamb. And the courgette frazzled. Did you like that? Yeah, I really liked it. The frazzled mint. I think I liked the vinegar on it because it made it like less sweet and kind of... I think, I'm not sure the juice was worth the squeeze on those frazzled mint because I over-frazzled the first lot and they turned brown. So the second lot, I just put them in and out and then they just kind of frazzled and then they were... Well, I liked it all, Mum. Good. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

57:16We'll be right back.

57:27But there's only one Zin. Check out Zin.com slash find to find Zin at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.