Second Helpings - Dawn French

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1:05Hello and welcome to Table Manor's Second Helpings. We've got another old guest of ours that came round for dinner back in 2020. What a treat it was to have Dawn French. She came over with her husband for Friday night dinner with a special request for chicken soup with matzo ball. Which you delivered on. Yep. And we did the trusty old chicken with apricots and dessert was fig and almond tart. Yum. she came over to talk about her latest novel at the time, Because of You, and it was the first book I'd read of hers, and it was wonderful. She's actually now got a new book out called The Twat Files, and I can't wait to read it this summer.

1:44And she's also touring. Huge Twat, the UK tour, has its last few dates in September, so go see her.

1:58Dawn French is in our house on Friday night. she's requested the chicken soup, we're going to deliver it and you're sitting here having champagne with us and we're toasting your book Yeah, thank you Just let me know this, how many minutes is it to the chicken soup? I just need to know No, I'm just checking, just give it to me as the motivation I'm going to put the heat underneath it Are you hungry? I am hungry, but let's talk first We'll talk for 20 minutes Oh that's fantastic Oh my God, this is like when I deny my daughter the biscuit after dinner. You have to wait until you can... Dawn, you have to drink that glass of champagne before you get your tickets in.

2:41Yes, champagne, cheers. Cheers. Thank you for that. So I finished it today. Did you? And I had a lump in my throat. Oh, good. The ending. The ending. We can't give the ending away, sadly. We can't give the ending away, but it's like... But it is quite a big twist at the end. Yeah. And it was really beautiful and really touching and moving. and I was gripped. It was a real page-turner. Good. So it's the first book that I've read of yours. I'm so sorry. No, no, it's not compulsory. Obviously, I respect you slightly less now. But that's okay. I haven't even started it. Your choice if you want a less rich life.

3:16To you, Jessie. Okay, so which one would you say I should read next? Well, isn't it weird? Because I would always say start with the autobiography. Okay, fine. Which is called Dear Fassie. That would have been helpful for tonight too. Well, yes and no. Yes and no. It's actually sort of out of date now because I finished it lots of years ago. So I've had a whole new chapter since then. But that's always a good starter. And I wrote that really because somebody else wrote a book about me. And I don't know if you've ever experienced this. What a bloody... But it is very... I can write a book about you tomorrow if I like.

3:49Anyone can write a book about you. And it's up to me how precise it is and how accurate it is. And it's a very odd thing to be... It feels like you're being bullied. and so the woman who wrote the book is a very bad journalist. Do you know her? I don't know of her. Was she obsessed with you then? No, I think she'd done this before. She'd written books about other people. That was her income was to write books about people without their permission. The unauthorised, you know. Oh yeah. But what she did that was not okay was that she started ferreting about in my daughter's biological mother. mother she started that kind of stuff so I had to you know take some serious action to stop that happening and really because she wrote this very inaccurate very badly written I have to say but that's just my opinion but inaccurate book full of inaccuracies that upset my family such a lot so I thought well as an answer to this sort of in revenge I better write I better write the story myself I can write it better than this so I came to writing that autobiography not really the best I was pushed, almost, yeah.

4:55I was pushed. But while sitting down and writing it, which I thought was going to be like homework, I just thought, ooh, I really like this. I like writing. This is good. Have you ever written a book before then? I hadn't written a book before that. I'd written a lot of work that I've done, you know, a lot of sketches and stuff like that. But I hadn't written anything like this. So did you know you had a book inside you? Well, do you know? Or two or three or four. How uncomfortable it is to have a book inside you. But I, no, no. I was so busy doing everything else, I didn't really think about that.

5:27But what I did discover when I started to write was that it was quiet and just me on my own with my own head. Did you write things on your own with your own head? What I think I've discovered about myself through writing is that I'm a kind of functioning introvert. That's who I really am. I know people are very surprised by that. No, I can believe that. Can you? Yes. Good. because I think a lot of extrovert people are not really. Because I think I'm a functioning introvert as well, darling. If you were given a choice of whether being quiet and maybe only your own family around you or lots of people in a huge social life, what would it be?

6:08And that is where you are not a functioning introvert. Mum, you were hosting my birthday last night like this with a glass of champagne and you were telling my tales to the cat. I prefer to be with you and my close people. I found it very difficult in lockdown being on my own. Oh, did you? I like living on my own, but not having social contact with people. So you're not a functioning institution. I'm not a functioning institution. Basically, what we're concluding is you're not a functioning institution. All right, then. She's not going to let you have that one. But you've got your husband there and your daughter.

6:39Yeah. But they understand me that I'm quite hermity, actually. But most of my life has been about, you know... Being out there. Well, and being in collaborations, being in a double act, being in a group, being, you know, a bit jazz hands. And don't get me wrong, I love that part. But really, I'm very at home on my own with the door shut writing. That is my biggest love. That's my biggest love. And I came to it quite late by writing that autobiography. Has it been harder to go back on the stage since becoming this writer and understanding yourself better? Not really, because exactly that. And I think that the more I spent time on my own, although I'm not entirely on my own because I'm with all these characters in my head and with my actual family.

7:23But the more I did that, the more I thought I need little pools of showing off. You know, I need to go out and connect with other people as well. I need to do this other part of my life. And luckily for me, both things happen. You know, I can do a bit of theatre, I can be in a TV series or I can do something on Audible with Jennifer or, you know, whatever. Luckily, I've got those choices. I mean, obviously, when the lockdown came, that was a bit scary. I was in Cornwall and in fact, I was writing the second draft of that book, which I was due to be doing then anyway. So pretty much all the way through lockdown, I was having the normal work life that I would have.

8:06you know there wasn't anything very different in that way except for that my daughter my stepdaughter came to live with us son was up the road with his girlfriend but not very far away so I carried on doing my normal job during that time so in a way that was helpful because it didn't feel too weird but what did happen like for a lot of performers like me is that um and maybe this happened for you as well Jess I don't know is that there was a day when I thought 18 months of work has just disappeared because theatres are shut and I was due to do a bit of theatre work and I was due to tour. Had it been announced yet?

8:42It hadn't been announced yet but it was all in the diary and I knew what was going on, knew my mortgage was paid, knew that all the things you do when you plan your life and if you're self-employed and you work in the arts you put your life together like a jigsaw don't you and you're lucky that it comes together like that but suddenly I thought oh my lord this is this is odd this is really frightening insecure strange time but writing was a real anchor for me to something that I love to do that was supposed to be doing anyway it was a calming and good and gradually things have clawed back obviously we're still waiting for theatres to open up but yeah you know like everyone with these discrepancies I can't understand why you're allowed in on a plane and not allowed in a theatre it just doesn't make any sense or you're not allowed at a football match, but you're allowed in the theatre or cinema, and a football match is open air, which I don't understand.

9:33Yeah, that's very odd. Do you go to football? I love football. Do you? Who are your team? Manchester United. Okay. Like the ones who know that, that you're from Manchester. Sorry, I'm from Manchester. Are you? Yes. Okay. Manchester is having a horrible time at the moment with all of this. Horrible, and I feel very sorry for... You've got a family there? Yeah, well, only my cousin. That's where I was brought up. But I feel very sorry for people in Manchester because I think it's not terribly clear and I think Andy Burnham's fighting for them so they get proper, you know, compensation. He's a ferocious advocate, isn't he?

10:07Jennifer is a giant Manchester United fan. Is she? I didn't know that. She is. And she gets a lot of stick for it because I think because Manchester, as I understand it, I'm not a football expert, but I think because they're big and famous and she doesn't come from Manchester. Do you know, Jennifer is, like me, from a forces family. So she's travelled around a lot, but they ended up near Manchester. They ended up in Cheshire. So she does have connections there. But she's got a good line and you should get her on to talk about it. She's got a good line in deflecting any of the nonsense that comes with that.

10:47Yeah. So growing up in a forces family, you were travelling about quite a long? All the time. sometimes every three months sometimes every six months sometimes every 18 months usually maybe two years would be the longest you stay anywhere so i went to something like i can't remember exactly now but it's something like seven or eight different junior schools oh my god and then when it comes to secondary school you end up in boarding school you end up in boarding school but for my family the that was amazing an amazing opportunity because a they couldn't afford it to send us to boarding school. This is posh.

11:22You know, they would not have been able to afford that. And the forces pay for you to go because you have some kind of constant in your life if you go there. Oh, what with the drinking? Sorry, we're not going fast enough to you, Annie. I'll really try to gulp. So, yeah, so I went to boarding school and was there with a lot of posh girls. Where were you? In Plymouth. But a very sweet boarding school, I have to say. I've still got very good friends from then. So you're very committed to that part of the... West Country, yeah. Well, that's why my... It's very odd for me because the Tamar River divides Cornwall and Devon.

12:01And it's a bit like the Lancashire-Yorkshire divide, you know. There's quite a lot of rivalry. And I have a lot of family from Devon, from Plymouth, but I also have a lot of family from Cornwall. And some of the people in Devon would never dream of travelling across that bridge to Cornwall. They just wouldn't do it. It's mad. And why would you do it? And why would you go there? It's a good bridge to travel. On the train, on the train, it's great. It's lovely. Yeah. The Brunel Bridge, it's wonderful. But yeah, I've got family that just will not come into Cornwall. And I've got family that will not go into Devon.

12:31So I'm sort of, I'm always a bit scared to say that I'm Cornish or from Devon. Because when my brother got married, right, he married a girl from Yorkshire. But they got married in Cornwall. And her dad stood up at the wedding and said how delighted he was that she'd married a Cornishman. And the Devon lot started to hiss. I mean, not in a funny way, in a kind of bring it on way. Oh, my God. So he very quickly corrected himself and said, oh, sorry, sorry, I mean that you've married a Cornishman, that we married a Devon boy, and then the Cornish lot started. And he's like, you just don't go there.

13:02That's funny. So I just am from the West Country. Are you going to write a book about this? The West-West divide? Well, you know, it's just part of my family stuff. You know, half of them are from there and half of them from there. Believe me, if we need to unite against people from further up, Like London. We like London, yeah. We do. We come together. We come together for the football. We come together for whatever we need to, if there's any enemies. But when we're left to our own device, it's like people who live in villages next door to each other. Isn't it? We love a bit of, you know, we love to argue with each other.

13:35So why did you choose Cornwall over Devon? My heart is there, really. And my mum, sadly my mum died about eight years ago, eight, nine years ago now. but my mum lived in Cornwall and so as I was getting older and as I knew I wanted to write more and I wanted to separate myself away from because I was only living near London because I didn't know London that well I spent all all my adult life in London because that's where college was that's where work was but I always my heart was always at home by the sea so um I knew I'd go back down there eventually so I did 16 years ago I went back down and did your kids go my daughter came with me although she was at various schools at that time but she came with me and then I got divorced and then I chose to stay there and then I met a Cornish man so you know you met a Cornish man who has a Foy life jacket on but no he's not he doesn't no it's a Foy life boat jacket it's not like he hasn't got a life jacket on he's on the lifeboat yeah in Foy that's so exciting he volunteers on the lifeboat are you amazing amazing yeah you've got yourself a man in uniform i have although the uniform is mainly sort of rubber boots to be honest so when you were hermited away writing your book yeah this book yes yes this very book in lockdown yes you did the cooking did mark bring you little soup songs as you were sitting there he did uh yeah although he didn't really stop working because he works he runs a rehab and so um lots of people are in all kinds of trouble weren't they during the lockdown and so his rehab closed and he opened it as a homeless shelter for a while and then he had to kind of help people find homes to be and so he was going into work pretty much every day but we did all there was four of us there was mark and me and my daughter billy and his daughter lils and we pretty much took it in turns to do the cooking so we had those interesting moments where you know my daughter was cooking um not at all frightening um who doesn't really cook um how old is she uh 29 i mean she does cook she can survive yeah uh but she wouldn't be cooking for other people not certainly not people who wanted to live and then lils who's actually very good at cooking and then mark who's really good and then me is okay so you know we took it in turns everywhere there was a lot of tolerance to begin with Kindness.

16:07Yeah, kindness. All of that. And we watched a lot of RuPaul. Oh. God love it. God love it. It is fantastic. So that was Billy and Lils and I went in the back room and watched it. We had face packs and RuPaul. That was mainly what we did during lockdown. Okay, who's your favourite queen? Oh, my God. I love all of them. Who's my favourite? Should we tell you who he had on? Yeah, actually, I think they're coming on next week. Next week. We've got Shea Coulee. Oh, have you? Yeah, he's a delight. Did you like the British one? I didn't watch it. Oh, come on. Don't, bag of chips. I know I like bag of chips.

16:40Well, when it first started, I thought, surely it's not going to be as good as them. It was really good. Here's a spoiler I'm going to give you, a little scoop. I'm going to be one of the guest judges. Woo! That's huge. They did originally ask me if I would be a full-term judge, but I couldn't. Wow. Because I don't live in London. But I am going to be a guest judge in a couple of weeks' time. They had to stop everything, didn't they, on the British one? And now they're starting it all up again. But I think there's going to be sort of perspex between each judge kind of thing. So I won't be able to touch Rue.

17:11That's a shame because I really do want to touch Rue. I love Michelle Visage. Do you think Rue would let you touch? Maybe. Well, you might have to go into quarantine like the British Bake Off before you go there. Your bubble is Michelle. That's amazing. Yeah, you could bubble with them. That would be fun. Do you know I haven't got time? I think I'm working up to literally the day before. What are you doing when you say you're working? Oh, lots of things. I'm doing lots of things. Take it from the top. I'll tell you what I've just finished. Yeah. I've just finished five weeks of filming in Wales.

17:40And this was the first bit of filming I did after the lockdown, where I've played Beatrix Potter in a film that is for Christmas, for Sky. And my friend Abby wrote this film. She originally wrote it as a little 15-minuter, but Sky liked it, so they've extended it. And it's about the day that the real Roald Dahl met the real Beatrix Potter. Beatrix Potter. And this actually happened. He was six and she was 60. Oh, wow. And he went to her house and met her. I mean, obviously she didn't know she was meeting the future. The future fabulous writer. But look how much her writing influenced his. I don't know when the last time was you ever read a Beatrix Potter.

18:23But they're dark. They're dark. They really are. I mean, everyone's in cutesy things, but they are chopping each other's tails off. Mrs. Tiggy Winkle. Samuel Whiskers has got a lot to it rats are eating kittens it is dark stuff so that was great but it was five weeks of filming in Wales and the reason I thought about it near Cardiff the reason I thought about it is because we all had to bubble for that so we were in what they call soft isolation so I was in a little cottage and I literally would go to work back to the cottage didn't go home for five weeks we all were tested every 48 hours. Gosh, you're very COVID aware.

19:05Well, they were. You know, they have to insure it. So, you know, it's lots of money, isn't it? So they have to make sure everybody is... I mean, only the other actors were people without masks on. And I knew that everybody had been tested. They knew that I had. And the crew, all in full PPE. I know. It was very odd. I saw people for five weeks from there upwards. Whilst we get the old chicken, I feel like it's been 20 minutes we've plied Dawn with two glasses of champagne what are you getting up there at the oven her timer yeah lovely I'm really happy that you requested chicken soup because my mum's is amazing that's where the love is as far as I know any Jewish families I know that is the it's like pasties in my family if your mum makes it or your auntie makes it it's like bloody delicious because it's just got love love love right in it your family make pasties oh yeah do you make pasties I don't.

20:02I'm no good at it. I ought to start trying to, but whilst I've got a mother-in-law, no mum anymore, but a mother-in-law who makes really good ones. Do you want to do one that for a little too? I'll have two. I'll have two. So what's in the filling of your mother-in-laws? Well, let me tell you this. Let's get this right. Okay, yeah, let's do it. Oh, look what's coming towards me. Oh, my God, that is it. There we are. It's all for the soul. That is good. Oh, God, that looks good. The traditional Cornish pasty only has certain ingredients, and if you use other ones, it's not a traditional Cornish pasty.

20:39Okay, fine. So that is skirt beef. Oh, okay. It is swede, or turnip, some people might call it, potato, onion, pepper. Yeah. That's pretty much it. Okay. There are people who claim they're making a Cornish pasty and might do something like, for instance, put a carrot in it. Oh, and that's just not on. that's not a traditional Cornish pasty that's not it so would you be offended if you saw a carrot in your pasty but I don't call it a Cornish pasty what would you call it just call it a pasty and say it's exotic or experimental or something like that good for you it's like if what would be in there that would be completely wrong well you see if there were some noodles in there that would be alright we're not a noodle family a loction family we're not a Lachsham family when I first met Len he had been looked after when he'd come to London from the Midlands, he'd fallen in with a big Jewish gang of kids I think it was a nightclub originally and they took him in and all their mums took him in and they are called the Lachsham Gang and they all looked after him and they're still his very close friends and they're my very close friends and it's parts of the Lachsham Gang that I have spent Passover with in the past That's so nice.

21:58Yeah, and that's why I've had chicken soup before. Am I allowed to slurp away at this? Please, slurp away, but I am going to carry on asking you questions. Oh, you've got any rules? Oh, any of the rules? There are no rules. It is eat and drink and tell us everything. So growing up, I want to go back to RAF, moving around all the time. A little time, a little while. Oh, yeah? Oh, God, no. You just savour that for a second. Just take that matziball in. It's so chickeny. It's good, isn't it? This is just gorgeous. This is exactly what I want to do. After a week of, I bet you've had a mental week of kind of promo.

22:32Oh my God, this is so good. Anyway, yes, yes. So growing up, who was cooking and what were you eating and what was kind of a regular thing? Growing up, my mum did most of the cooking in our family, but my mum really wasn't a great cook, I have to say. Okay, fine. Didn't believe in salt, pepper, any spices, anything like that. Yeah. I didn't know, I mean, she would call, she would regard spaghetti hoops as foreign because it's pasta. You know, it's like exotic. So my mum overcooked everything. Every vegetable we had was overcooked, everything. But I loved her food. And my mum especially would make a stew that expanded the food for lots of people.

23:13Because my mum brought up her brothers and stuff like that. And that stew was chicken, of course, bits of chicken. And that would be the expensive part. then everything else was grated carrot onion potatoes grated just make it big lots of stock yeah make it huge that so that food is i got very used to that yes i love that got very used to having a very full tummy all the time which is why i'm a little fat girl yes please lovely thank you did you find it hard moving around or did you quite i did i used to um i used to get quite stressed i would um sleepwalk oh do you need salt i've got no salt that's perfect as it is thank you oh my god dawn you're the only other person that does this that i know well like i've never seen a i mean you're not jewish i'm not jewish no this is this is amazing you have spent time with the lotion i definitely have amazing i definitely have dawn is um is i'm crumbling her masa because I like it to be a little bit soggy yes lovely and with the occasional bite of the crunchy bit a little crunch never goes back oh thank you Lenny for this you've had many you cannot know how lovely that is wonderful so you used to sleep and I tell you cherish your mum's food cherish your mum while you have your mum with you cherish her and cherish her food I'm not that old I know but we all you know we all go up the old step ladder and I miss my mum's food such a lot even though it was very bland she wasn't particularly experimental but it was her food and it's cooked with all the love you know, like this is fantastic I mean, how was school dinners at boarding school?

24:52Well, I never minded school dinners I quite like them She wouldn't let me have them I like school dinners too I made best friends with the dinner ladies Love school dinners but it was weird because we were at boarding school I was at boarding school you know so you were there in the evenings and stuff. I had a few little disasters where at tea time at the end of school day there would always be you could have bread, butter jam you know like a sandwichy sort of cakey thing at the end of the day and then you'd come back and have an evening meal and I remember the very first time I went into the refectory you know age 12 or whatever I was and I was so nervous of it all and on the table were white plates with pats of butter that I thought was cheese.

25:38And it was cold, you know, from the fridge. It was cut into squares. So I believe this was cheese. So I just picked it up and ate it. And then, of course, other kids were looking at me like, what is she doing? But then I had to do... We always eat it like this. You know, where you have to front it out. You just... You've done such a stupid thing. But now you have to keep going. So, yeah, I used to eat pats of butter. And, of course, once you've started doing it, you're doing it for seven years then. No, you really committed to... I kept doing it and convincing people. I could not give in to the mistake.

26:11That's ridiculous, isn't it? But we were in boarding school in Plymouth. In Plymouth. So Cornish butter's quite nice, isn't it? Yeah, pretty good. But still, you shouldn't be just eating it in great slabs, to be honest. So we've had the Cornish pasty, Bec. Yeah. You must be surrounded by fantastic food. What, down there? Yes. Yeah, I've had to learn about fish. We didn't really have much fish in my family. I think we're a bit fish afraid. Because you have to know about fish a bit, don't you? And I don't think my mum did know. So I never really used to eat fish. And I would avoid it. And I did have a horrible incident with some...

26:47We lived in Cyprus for a while because my dad was posted there. And I had some shellfish. And my face completely exploded. And I had to go to local hospital when I was a little kid. So obviously it was off. Obviously. Oh, you're not allergic? I don't think I'm allergic. But I do avoid it. I thought you tried it again. I do avoid it. I've had odd little bits. I've had odd little bits when, like, if I went to someone's house and they made lobster and nobody had asked, I'd have a go. And I've been all right. I've been all right. I think it was just off. So my memory of it is not great, you know, not great.

27:21But since I've moved down there and since Mark, you know, he goes fishing a bit and we get fresh fish, I've learned to trust fish a bit more. So where are some of your top spots to go and eat in Cornwall? Oh, God, there's so many. We've got a great place in our town called Appleton's with a new chef who's come down there. And he's opened up, and I think he used to work for Jamie, who had a place up on the north coast. I'll tell you a place that I shouldn't really tell you about, but try not to tell too many other people. And again, the clue is in the name. There is a place called... Hidden Hut.

27:55Yes! Have you been to the Hidden Hut? I love that place. Which place? Oh, my God, we did. Not so hidden now, baby. Not so hidden now. They have feast nights there. It's so good. Oh, my God, it's so good. Where is it? Is it near Truro? Well, yeah. Is that near you? I'm not very good with your jokes. Yeah, it's on that coast. It's at Port Scaffo, a little bit further on. It's near Port... Yeah, Port Scaffo. It's in the dunes. You park up in a car park and you have to walk a little bit through some fields. And then you come to it. And it's like a sort of cricket hut. You can go there and get coffee and cake and everything normally.

28:30and that's all delicious and homemade and lovely. But one night a week, he will have a feast night. So one night will be a big rotisserie, I don't know, thing, giant thing. It's beautiful. Lobster another night, a vegetable night. His dal, though, is bloody good. Brilliant. It's a brilliant place. And you all go together. You take your glasses, your wine, your knives and forks and your plates and he just plops it on. That's fabulous. It's wicked. If the weather's nice, because it's out in the open. If the weather's nice, it's lovely, isn't it? It's just great. And you've got little candles on the table and flowers.

29:06How sweet. And you're overlooking the sea. Another place I can tell you about in Cornwall. I can't believe I'm telling you my favourite things. Sorry, darling. Because then other people are going to turn up there. Do you want more soup, darling? Does anyone need more soup? This is all good. Because I've crunched everything into it now. It's delicious. It's a place called Edie's Kitchen. In a very unlikely little road on the way down to Carlion Bay. and it's just a little row of shops and then there's Edie's Kitchen and this is a young couple who have opened a kitchen, he cooks she's front of house and honestly I think it might be the best food possibly the best food I've ever tasted Oh really?

29:45Gosh, where is that? In Carlion Bay in near St Austal

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31:03Oh, this is so delicious. It's quite yummy, isn't it? Oh, really good. It's really... Apricots and chicken, lovely. And they're tinned apricots, so it's not even like... It's really easy. That is it. Can I just say, well done for spinach as well. Oh, it's a bit cold. Oh, well, spinach is... No, why are you saying sorry? It was a bit chilly. I'm telling you, spinach is the king of vegetables. I love it. It's the best, isn't it? But it is slightly frustrating that you are promised this bag. I know, but... And then you get the little kind of... But what I love is you know that the thing that it boils down to or steams down to...

31:37Yeah, it comes down to nothing. It's so good for you. Yeah. And it's so delicious. How do you do your spinach? Do you just wilt it? I wilt it a little bit with a little bit of chilli. Oh, chilli. Yeah, mister doesn't like the oil so much. Oh, did you not like it? Quite fussed. How did you two meet? Wow. It was rather good. No, that's not true. She was in rehab. No, I was not. In my family, because my mum ran the rehab. Oh, really? That was my mum's work. So my mum was a bit of a social worker like you. She was. but my mum set up places that women young women and their kids could stay together while they were in rehab that was her kind of big oh you keep families yeah yeah there's a place in London like that yeah she advised to the government for a little while about this because it's very successful but anyway she then wanted to set up another place a facility I think that's the right word and she wanted Mark who was an old colleague of hers to head it up so when my mum retired Mark Mark took her job.

32:40So he's the chief exec of Hammo's House, which is a charity that helps people with drug and alcohol problems and all the affected others. And I was writing a novel, my second novel, and in that novel I was writing a character that was a bit of a cokehead. And in my family, if you need to find out about serious drug addiction, you should speak to your mum, because that was her work. So I called mum, who had retired at that point, who said to me, you need to go and talk to Mark. And I thought, who's Mark? Oh yeah, Mark, her friend, her colleague. about this time I was single so I've been how old are you just tell me this is nine years ago I'm 63 now so nine ten years ago so 53 54 so I thought yeah okay I'll go do my research for this book so I called Mark up and I said mum says you can help me talk to some people that have done lots of coke and he said okay and what I really admired is both my mum and Mark although my research was important What was more important was that the people speaking to me should feel safe and protected and happy to talk to me.

33:43So I love that. Everybody was secure. So we go up to his office and he has set up a young man and a young woman to speak to me, to answer my questions, honestly, and help me with my research. But in his office, right, it's hard on a podcast to explain this, but in his office, he had a white wall there, right? and he had a window there. And he had put the two chairs for the people talking to me in front of the window. So I sat down and they were sort of silhouetted, which was not the best way. When you're doing research, you need to see people's faces. And I thought, oh, he's done the furniture wrong, but I can't really reorganise the furniture.

34:21He's done this kind of thing. Did he do it on purpose? No, it's just the way he didn't think about it. It's not aesthetically connected. So anyway, they sat there and I was thinking, I can't quite see them. But anyway, all right, they answered all my questions. who were lovely, helpful. After an hour, he came in and said, well, it's a cup of tea or, you know, just sort of finishing the meeting up. And then he sat down in the same place. So he's now silhouetted, right? Did he look good silhouetted? Well, yeah, but I couldn't quite see him. So some would say, yes, very good. So anyway, he's a silhouette against the window.

34:53I'm here with the white wall behind me. And I'm actually thinking, I've done my research. I'm ready to go. I'll just wind this up. straight away not at all and i had met him i'd met him a few times i know i'd met him a few times but he's my mum's mate he's my mum's colleague he's you know in her life professional professional he was free he was at that point but when i'd met him before i wasn't so i wasn't looking you know okay all of that so he's just a lovely guy just lovely guy helping me out so he's sitting there with the with the window and the light behind him and um i'm literally filling time while i just being polite just going so how's your life mark um in my head i'm thinking not not really that interested but anyway yeah talk if you like um and he starts to talk and he's talking about his children his beloved children who went to live with him in you know when he got divorced and as he's talking about his children no word of a lie behind him out in the world there was a cloud but the sun came out from behind the cloud and sunbeams, like from God, came in through the window, bounced off the wall behind me, back onto him like Fellini had lit him.

36:08Oh, my God. So he's just talking about his kids and I literally go from just listening to, oh, my God. Hallelujah. Oh, my God, look at him. It was heaven sent. It was like that. Now, my mum, of course, when I later told her about this, said, that is your dad. My dad died when I was 90. so that is your dad saying look at this he put the spotlight on him honestly it was really like it it was like like that on his face blue eyes i shouldn't be too nice about him while he's sitting here i can see that nice to him but anyway it was just like i thought god look at him like breath gone oh i have to know this man i have to know this man so anyway i left there feeling a bit fluttery and i went home and i called my mum who he was a great friend of and my mum had known him for years, her colleagues.

36:55And I said, Mum, seriously, I think I'm a bit sweet on Mark. So she went, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Why does she say that? I said, what do you mean? She went, oh, too young, far too young for you. I said, how old is he? And she said, well, I can't, I don't know how old he is. I said, well, so what are you talking about? Anyway, we had a bit of a moment, and I love my mum, like you love your mum. And I thought, well, actually, if my mum thinks this is wrong, I would listen to that. Anyway, I put the phone down, I thought, a bit odd, a bit of a strange response. But she called me back and she said, I'm so sorry about that.

37:25But he's my friend. And it's a bit weird. She said, but of course you would like him. She said to me, because after your dad and your brother, he's my favourite man in the world. Oh. That is so lovely. So then he and I got together and then sadly my mum died. But when my mum was dying, she knew we were together. Was she young when she died? 77. Yeah, young. But as my mum was dying, she said, I can go because you've got him. So he's got a bit of a sort of guarantee, which is good. So you better live up to it, mate. Yeah. So that was very touching. He just put his fingers up at you, but it was a really beautiful ending to the story.

38:06It is, yeah. But you know how sometimes you're not even looking at someone and they're right under your nose? Oh, that is such a beautiful story. Are you very in love with your husband, Jessie? Yeah, we've been together since we were teenagers. He's wicked. He's amazing. He's fantastic. There must be nothing better. None of our kids have quite settled with anybody yet. They've got nice relationships but they haven't settled with anyone. I wonder what it's like as a mum. Your only happiness is if they are happy. If you know that she's with somebody that cherishes her and looks after her, that's a huge thing.

38:44It's lovely that you bring that up because Lee in the book yes that feels like a character that's definitely do you know this book jesse to be absolutely honest this book is a complete mother line uh you know i learned a lot from my mother in my all the way through my childhood i've been fantastically mothered i felt safe and held and although i warred with my mom i had big battles with my mom it was in the sure knowledge that there would be peace and forgiveness and it would be over at certain points you know we come back together and then you have another row and then you come back together um and and we ended up as very good that that rowing bit was mainly in my 20s you know it's that bit where you're sort of allergic to your mom for a while but my mum was on adoption panels quite a lot of her life and she would talk to me about adoption and fostering and stuff so when it came to when I adopted um my daughter you know I listened a lot to what my mum had said and I I genuinely really believe that that your relationship with your mum not that my I mean my relationship with dad was very very important but different your relationship with your mum is the foundation of almost everything else and if you are as lucky as you clearly are and as I was to have a to be held and scaffolded so well by your mother it just sails you into your life so well and you will teach your daughter that same thing I'm really all about that line through the women in a big way again not dismissing the men but at the moment I'm interested women are the main event so this book is about mothers daughters and that connection even though there is a you know it's a tricky old story this book I don't know if you know about it no I do know about it because Jessie's told me but she's not told me everything because I'm going to Okay, yes.

40:36Well, suffice to say, it's about a woman who steals another woman's baby. Yeah, she told me that. So that is like the worst thing you could possibly do. However, I've tried to challenge myself to write a woman who does that terrible, sinful thing for very good reason. But does not return baby ever because her need for a daughter is so huge. And because she's such a great mother. and as it happens the woman that she steals the daughter from is in a very toxic marriage so in a way that the daughter has been brought up in the right family but who are we to say who the right family is it's a moral dynamic and does the daughter the daughter has a right to know the daughter has a right of course she doesn't find out until she's older when she has to find out and you can imagine finding out something like that about your identity and i'm interested in those themes of identity like who makes us who we belong to whether you're made of you the the bones and the blood that you're made of or whether you're made of your what do you think i do you know i don't have the answers to it i've adopted my daughter and i adore her but i am mindful always of the other mother who i don't know does she does she have any contact with her no no no so you know it's like but someone i'm very grateful to and feel very protective of and so when that woman i was telling you about who wrote a biography of me here's me saying i'm not going to finish this but now i can't stop i just cannot stop when that woman wrote the biography about me and started to slightly circle around i just the lioness in me really came out and it was very difficult you know because i i feel very strongly connected to the absent yeah other mother who is part of our triangle you know yeah and that and that's a very it's an unspoken contract and it's a contract between families that I will always honor and nobody should come in between it it's my daughter's choice that it's nobody else's choice so I have to you know take a lot of action to make sure that didn't go any further but she's backed off me now this woman she doesn't come anywhere near me thank god but difficult it's difficult isn't it because you do anything for your kids you know that's your main concern we become fixings don't we yeah we do we do yeah and I think that line through you know mother daughter to granddaughter very very strong my my own daughter's relationship with my mum was so fantastic and I know my daughter misses us such a lot it's a difficult old thing that but I would rather she'd had it yeah she had it than didn't have it was your mum funny my mum wasn't the funny one in our family my dad was and I think my brother is quite but my brother is quite shy so I think in our family my dad and I were pretty much the performers if you like but um you're not the jazz hands performers but we would be the ones trying to make the other two laugh so my mum and my brother were more like the audience and my dad and I were the ones that But did you go to university?

43:42I went to drama college To train as a To central But to train as a teacher So that's where I met Jennifer Were you both training as teachers? Yes We have absolutely no drama training whatsoever Which I think is patently obvious If you've ever seen us try to do any acting Well I want to know when you knew you were funny I think it was a really natural thing In my household Especially with my dad rather than any um corporal punishment or anything like that we would never hit or anything but my dad would be a little bit funny sarcastic so my dad would say things like oh i think we all need to stop and listen to dawn because she's the one being a bit the loudest at the moment so everybody needs to be quiet and we're obviously we all need to listen to dawn and so you would be told carefully you know funny way you're being you're showing off a bit and you're being a bit loud but you get it it's all done with the funnies so it's all acceptable it's all fine so I guess in my household that was going on all the time but we also all shared a similar sense of humor like you do in families you have your own little codes don't you and your own running jokes and stuff like we all love Morecambe and Wise a lot so you know and that was in the days when you only had a couple of channels, so you would all sit down together and have that shared experience of it.

45:08And it was just such delight. And I love Monty Python, and my family loved Monty Python. So we'd repeat the Monty Python jokes. You shared the same sense of humour. Exactly. So I don't know if I ever sat back and thought, ooh, I'm funny. I just knew our family was quite funny and that things were handled, difficult moments were handled with humour. Do you think you needed Jennifer to be able to bounce your funniness off your face? Do you know, the funny thing is that Jennifer's dad was also in the RAF, like my dad. And actually, I found in my life I gravitate towards people that are in the services.

45:42Because it's quite hard to explain it to people. You know, the constant travelling and the looking for new friends and the slight anxiousness that you get and the nomadic thing. And what you tend to do as a kid is you put on, you're very worried about going to another new school. And often at that school, they've had kids from the forces. so the local kids don't really mix with you because they know you're going to be gone soon. So you gravitate towards other forces, kids, and you put on a bit of a personality fireworks display just to make sure people are nice to you. So when I met Jennifer, it was a bit coming home because she was also an RAF kid.

46:17And in fact, so much so, that Jennifer had lived on the same RAF camps as me, but not at the same time. And at one point, Jennifer's best friend was a girl called Camilla Leng. and then Jennifer's family moved on from that. This is when she was about nine. She moved on from that. My family moved into that camp and Camilla Lang became my best friend. Oh my God. Funny. It's like that. Are you still friends with Camilla Lang? Anyway, I don't know her anymore, though we did contact her. When we first realised it, we contacted her and she was an army kid. But, you know, yeah, she'd been Jennifer's friend and she'd been mine, but she didn't know then, did she, that there was a kind of contact between all of us.

46:53But my love for Jennifer and my very visceral connection with her, I think is born of this life that we shared, that experience that we knew together. And because she's just lovable. She's a great person. We're on to our last course, which takes me on to... Of course it's courses. I know. Only for the really special ones, Dawn, they get three courses usually. I don't know. The chicken stew, we pulled out the stock, Dawn. I thought that's all it was going to be. I've filled up on that. This is amazing. I'm going to explode. We can give you a portion to it. But last supper, starter, main, pud and drink of choice.

47:36Some people have a whole day of meals. But you don't have to. You can do whatever you like. Well, of course, you know, the point is, if it's your last supper, you want to take something, it takes a long time to eat, so you buy more time. But I'm going to forget about that. Starter, I think... I think the starter would have to be maybe a mackerel pate. Oh, nice. But on a cracker, not on bread, because then I really would be, like I am now, utterly stuffed. Like a little cracker. Nice little... Even a bit of matzo, actually, that would do it. So that would be the starter. The main course would have to be, I know I'm repeating myself, but it'd have to be a pasty.

48:18Okay. I would honestly eat one every day. till I died, if I could. Do you have any condiment with it? Or is that like sacrilegious? I mean, that's just not what you do. You might have a bit of ketchup. Okay. What you don't have is you don't have salad and you don't really have... No pickle? Beans. No. Francis pickle? No, can I just tell something? Some people might. I wouldn't object to that. No. What makes the little hot thing in the pasty sometimes? What do you mean? What subtle thing is that? Sometimes when you eat a pasty, there's a slight spicy pepper. Oh, hot thing. I thought you meant a physical.

48:50Oh, no. It's white pepper. White pepper? White pepper. And they put a lot on it? Yeah. Okay. That's it. Some people will put a little dollop of clotted cream in, just that will melt. That would be very nice. But that is a traditional Cornish plastic. And is it a different... Crimping on the side. Do you like the water pastry, or do you like puff pastry like Greg's? Well, this is where... Sorry to be common. No, this is where we all, we have big differences. Big's would have a different pastry to me. my mum I would have my mum's pastry and I actually have to say the last supplement would have to be my mum's pasty second on the reserve bench is his mum on the third reserve bench is from the butcher in Tower Dreath up the road fourth reserve I know a lot of pasties would be Iverdoodne's pasties that are made in Plymouth so that would be the main cause but I'd be quite full by then just forget about that you're hungry I've got eight stomachs five hours All right, okay.

49:49Probably the pudding might be a tiramisu. Oh, just a favourite too. Great choice. Love it. Where do you get it from? Is there one that you... No, I can't. I did, during lockdown, I did follow a recipe. And it was online. It was just a lady. Just a lady online. And did you use ladies' fingers? Yes. Dipped in halloula or whatever. Dipped in coffee, actually. Coffee. Just in coffee, yeah. Any liqueur in there? There was brandy. Brandy. And creme fraiche mixed in with cream. No, it should be mascarpone. Mascarpone. You're absolutely right, Lenny. Well done. Definitely not creme fraiche. Not creme fraiche.

50:30Look, just erase that. Try and forgive me. Because you can't get past it. Because you have to put that with egg. You're right, mascarpone. And you have to mix it with egg. Absolutely. I'm not sure there was any egg. Sometimes, yes. And it was good. Good, and you can pipe it. and then little bits of it. Well, not very well. What were you doing in lockdown? I was piping, actually. I was piping. I'll tell you what I did do in lockdown, if you're at all interested. Because I'm not great at cooking, really, and I'm certainly not great at baking. But I saw a woman make something called breakfast cake.

51:01And breakfast cake is made with yoghurt and flour and egg and stuff and blueberries. And you make it in a ring, which is impressive. Yeah. And you put a bit of icing sugar on it. And then I serve it with yogurt, which it's also got in it, and a little bit of hot maple syrup. Oh, nice. I'll have to send it to you. Can we have that? We'll give you our cookbook if you promise. Yeah, all right, I'll send you that recipe. That is good. But that wouldn't be on my last supper. The tiramisu would be on my last supper. And when you say... Drink? What's the drink? You're very... Honestly, I know I'm very lightweight.

51:36You're a bit disappointing. I know, so sorry. Sorry. But honestly, that's, I'm already goody. Giddy. Goody and goody. Goody and goody. She's a giddy goody. But my favourite drink is my best friend in the world's husband's cider, which is called Foy Valley Cider. F-O-Y. Cornish. Delicious. But it's light and lovely. Really, really golden. Gorgeous. Fantastic. Yeah, that would be mine. Right, I'm going to ask, but you are so many different personas when you're up there. So Jessie would never do karaoke because I forced her once at Club Med to be Whitney Houston and she hated it. Traumatised her.

52:18Yes. But I love karaoke. So which would be your karaoke song? I'm not sure I do love karaoke. No, you don't have to love it. But okay. But if you're forced to. Why don't you like it though? Because I wonder whether it's artist to artist, performer to performer. I think it's because I can't really sing that well. I really sing well in the car and in the shower. Oh yeah. Really brilliantly. Okay. brilliantly on you know it's amazing how i think um but really given because we've done quite a lot of parodies of songs and stuff yeah but once you're in a studio with headphones and a microphone and chords i just can't manage it it's called blood light isn't it my producer dave akumu would say when the red light comes on it he calls it blood light yeah it is and he's like just and all your confidence drops out yeah do you know once i went for an audition to be in the film of mamma Amir.

53:11Right, this is common knowledge to my friend Jennifer and I was told by the producers because I said, look, I can't really sing. I said, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because Bjorn and Bjork or whatever they're called, they will fix it all. They'll all be fixed up. Oh, lovely, thank you. Honestly, it doesn't matter how badly your singing is. You'll be all right. So I went for an audition and I went to, it was a big theatre in Cambridge Circus and I went up the stairs and sitting in the room with a lot of guys, gay guys I'm guessing, gorgeous happy people at their computers all going, hey Dawn, lovely to see you, lovely to see you.

53:49I said I'm going for an audition, they're like, oh good luck, it'll be fine. And I went into the room next door and the musical director came in. He said, let's just have a little canter through Mamma Mia. Honestly, do you want to hear the sound that came out of me? Mamma Mia! Here we go again! I, I, how did I forgive you? One note, couldn't get off one note. Oh. Stayed on one note. And he went, ooh, okay, we're not managing that. So let's move on to, name any other. Money, money, money. Money, money, money. Let's do that. I go, yeah, okay, sorry about that. I don't know why I couldn't get off the one note.

54:23So off he goes, plinky, plonky, plink. And I go, money, money, money, must be funny in a rich man's world. This is what I was doing, loudly. So anyway, he went, ooh, anyway. right lovely lovely to see you and I was thinking well it's alright because she told me that he's going to fix it and that isn't my real voice I can sing much better than that yes so I come out of the room and all the guys who had greeted me before just their heads were down like that total shame all completely looking away from me because it was just so awful the noise they heard and I went down the stairs and literally I switched my phone on and by the time I got to the bottom of the stairs my agent was on the phone going love love it's just not going to work Hold on, but it's not like Meryl did the performance of her life with the singing.

55:07She did pretty well. The person who didn't was... Tears. You said it. Oh, mate. But I did worse than that. Oh, I... It's not good, is it? But that's what happened to my voice. I've seen you sing, though. And yet, in the shower, I'm magnificent. What are you singing in the shower? Do you want cream, darling? I'll have a tiny, tiny bit of cream. Do you know what I really want? What? Yoghurt. It's a small black coffee. I'm going to give you one. Thank you. This looks good. God, this is great. Supper, thank you. Such a pleasure. That's what I need. Mmm, figs, lovely. Crunchy, chewy, lovely. Yeah, well, figs are...

55:43They're in at the moment, aren't they, Mum? It's a good time for them. Dawn French, do you think that you've got good table manners? Kind of. I mean, look, I've got my elbow on here. I don't think that's... We're sitting at a breakfast bar. Yeah. Okay, okay. I think pretty good. I know that my mum told me that when they were little, she used to have to sit up so straight that you could put your arms back and put a broom handle through the back of your arms there oh my god, that's uncomfortable and that is how you were supposed to and you take the food to your mouth you do not take your mouth to the food and all of that they were taught to sit that straight that you could put a broom handle across your back through your arms, that's mad isn't it Dawn French, what an absolute pleasure to cook for you thank you for cooking for me I really appreciate it properly appreciate it can I just say your hair is so beautiful and shiny it's the most glossy hair how do you do that?

56:40product no that is shine is that a hair straightening like you iron that? it's a hair straightening yep I put cement thermique ever heard of it? oh I've got that upstairs that's what goes in just that I'll give it you goes in and then the irons go and a good cut obviously a good cut that cuts fab and some colour you won't believe that this is not my natural colour No, nor me. I am 63. How old are you? I'm 69. Are you? Yeah. Come on, Lenny, you look pretty good for that. No, I don't. Yes, you do. You look freaking great. You look gorgeous. Well, likewise, sister. But can I tell you, the one thing that I ordered before we went into lockdown was hair colour.

57:18I thought, there's no way I'm going fucking grey and fat. That was my one.

57:36I loved this episode with Dawn. She was so warm and lovely and I loved the way she talked about Cornwall and how she met her husband, the light shining into his eyes. And she's also reminded me of how amazing the food in Cornwall is and Mum, you still need to go to the Hidden Hut. It's one of my favourite places. Thanks so much for listening and we shall see you next week for another episode of Second Helpings.

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