Second Helpings - Keir Starmer

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1:05Hello and welcome to Table Manners' Second Helpings. This is the second time we've done Second Helpings because people liked it so much last year. We thought whilst we're off air, we'd remind you of some of the many interesting chats that we've had with different guests over the years. How are you, Mum? Well, darling, who'd have thought a year ago that the person that we had ran for tea would be our new Prime Minister? Yes, Sir Keir Starmer, our new Prime Minister, came round last July in 2023, where he came for an early evening supper. Pescatarian. Only thing he didn't want was avocado. And what did you make for him, Lenny?

1:44Well, I made tomato tart. It was really good. Delicious. I gave him the cookbook. Alison Roman. Yeah, I gave him the cookbook because he liked it so much. A pui lentil salad, courgette salad with mint, aubergine tomato and cucumber salad. I just wonder if he's sorted out the food in the House of Commons and whether he's going to have place settings so everyone mixes in and gets to know each other, all those new MPs. When we had the chat with him, he'd only had time for a tuna sandwich on the go. A pret tuna sandwich, that was his go-to. I doubt he's got any more time to... He probably can't even fit the whole bloody baguette in for lunchtime now.

2:22Does he even get a lunchtime anymore? He's busy. And, yeah, I hope you enjoy this episode.

2:34Sir Keir Starmer, you're in Clapham. You're about to get fed by Lenny Ware. And we've got so many questions to ask. Mostly food related. Very good. Thank you for being here. No, not at all. Thanks for having me. You know, we've had some other MPs on. Yeah. Some of your front bench. Who have you had on? Jess Phillips. Oh, yeah, I did know that. And Ed Miliband. Ed came on. Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. And can I just tell you, very flirty. Was he? Yeah. Surprisingly, asked me if I'd like to go naked swimming at Hampstead Ponds. Oh, he's obsessed with wild swimming. I didn't realise it was that wild.

3:09Well, I think... Well, I didn't type that. He's tried to sell it to me. It's just sort of good for the soul. I see, I do go naked with him too. Mum, you don't feel so special. But he's become so into wild swimming. I know. But, well, wait till I have a word with him. Yeah. And he had Sadiq? Yeah, we've had Sadiq. He gave us the scoops. I'm waiting for your scoop for us, please. Thank you. He said that he was announcing that he was running for mayor again. So I'm just, we'll wait. We'll give you a few glasses, Kira. We'll see what you've got. Oh, did he? Okay. That's really nice. But Kira, let's start at the beginning.

3:47Dinner, around the dinner table. Who was around the dinner table? Are you a Londoner? Yes, Kentish Town. Oh, right. Proper Londoner. So who was cooking your meals when you were a child and who was eating them or not eating them? So when I was growing up, I lived out in Surrey, on the Surrey-Kent border, in a semi-detached, pebble-dashed house with my mum and dad and four kids, three bedrooms. So I shared with my brother and my sister shared with each other. So I had the bunk bedroom with my brother. Did you like that? It was very cramped. where did you are you the eldest so i've got an older sister right i'm then next and then i've got a brother and sister who are 18 months younger who are twins oh and so that's where we lived and cooking wise it was this was a what i would call a sort of classic working class family so my dad worked in a factory he was a toolmaker my mom was a nurse but um she i don't know whether you know that she had stills disease when she was young when she was 11 which is basically a very aggressive juvenile arthritis and it um can destroy your sort of system and um luckily for her they found something that could treat her at least mitigating and so because the diagnosis at prognosis at 11 was that she wouldn't walk after the age of 20 and she wouldn't be able to have kids so even the fact that i'm here is a sort of miracle down to guy's hospital and what they're able to do with her but that meant that in the end it was just my dad working um and so it was a very traditional setup.

5:23Mum did all the cooking. All the cooking. Good cook? Yeah, really good. But my dad, I can't, I was thinking about this when I was coming down. I can't remember my dad ever cooking anything. It was just such a traditional working class setup. He just didn't cook anything. Mum did everything. And what was a memorable dish that your mum made? Well, when I was growing up, it was British food. Yeah. British food, always. Really? So my dad was really sort of rigid framework about this. So he wasn't going to be eating pasta or anything like that. Are you kidding? So it was British food. There came a point, must have been when I was a teenager, I think, when my mum sort of branched out and tried a chicken curry.

6:10It was one of these sort of chicken and a bit of curry sauce and some sultanas and a bit of rice. Sounds delicious. This was really exotic for us because otherwise it was, as you'd expect, sort of sausages, mash, meat, veg. It was that chicken and potatoes or vegetables. It was always that sort of menu. And you don't eat meat now. I don't eat meat now, but then it was classic potato, two veg or something like that. So how did the curry go down in the household? I thought it was great. Did your dad like it? Eventually, yeah. But he wouldn't be adventurous on anything else. So we didn't try anything else at all when I was growing up.

6:54So with your mum's illness, did that make it quite hard for having four kids in the house? Were there times when it was quite debilitating for her that it was obvious for you and you were aware of it? Yeah, it was all of the time really. She was in incredible pain and struggling all the time. what's interesting looking back at it i don't think i noticed as much then because she'd be she contracted this illness before i was born obviously so she was always i never knew it you know this was always how mom was and there's always you know at meal times um along with the food there would always be a sort of mom's tablets that she'd have at every meal because she had to have painkillers and strong tablets and then other tablets to take away the side effects of the first set of tablets and that sort of thing so that was part of the routine if you like at the table which was the food and then you know all of the tablets and medicines that had to go alongside it and were you all talking about politics at dinner time no not particularly was your were your parents political not actively so my dad was a labor supporter it's a labor household yeah um and you know very strongly believed in the Labour Party and Labour movement and in terms of activity so he I remember distinctly he would go to work at eight o 'clock in the morning come home at five o 'clock for his tea then he'd go back to work at six till ten o 'clock at night every five days a week this was his routine because we didn't have a lot of money he had to get the work done yeah um and so he so he would come in eat and go and therefore there was no space in his life for you know activities so did he play with you so he was too busy to even get involved yeah i can't remember him being particularly involved with us it was always mum particularly when we were younger so if we sort of came home from school particularly primary school it'd be mum that was there to greet us when we came in at whatever time from primary school, half past three, four.

8:57And at that stage, I've got this distinct memory of sort of jam sandwiches at about four o 'clock in the afternoon. And my mum always, in my head at least, always playing Jim Reeves. Jim Reeves? Yeah, she loved Jim Reeves. Who's Jim Reeves? Oh, is it like a country singer? An old country singer from years ago. Who's Jim Reeves? That's so great. Sorry. it just shows where this is from obviously your mum was incredibly busy bringing up four children and your dad was incredibly busy bringing home the bacon and do you think if your mum had worked what do you think she would have been interested in doing?

9:35she did, she did, sorry she would have carried on being a nurse, she loved being a nurse so she works whilst being, she was exhausted too, she worked in her late teens when she first went to work and then she stopped And then did she go back? No, no. She wasn't strong enough to go back. And also having four children just didn't allow her to go back. But she loved the NHS. She was so proud of being a nurse. It was like, goes through like a sort of a rock. It was incredible. So she'd definitely have carried on being a nurse if she could have done. How old was she when she had her first child? She was 21, I think, maybe just 22.

10:16so basically once you've been told um you're because of your illness you may not have children she kept going well she said i'm not having that and obviously took these drugs which were a sort of form of steroids which helped mitigate the illness and then then she got on with it because she got married at 21 and had children straight away because i think she must i've never discussed this with her and obviously I can't now because she's passed away but I I assume it's because she felt um at any moment I might not be ill I might not be well enough to have children so I'm not going to hang about I'm going to get on with it so she was determined and had four children was it a happy childhood yeah yeah um it was happy it was um I did a lot of sports I was playing football the whole time, out the house doing that sort of thing.

11:11But yeah, it was. There wasn't a lot of discussion. We didn't sort of discuss politics or current affairs around the kitchen table. It wasn't that kind of household. So when did that happen? Yeah, when did you get interested in politics? I joined the Labour Party when I was 16. So there was something there, obviously, that got me into politics. Was it a particular figure in the Labour Party? No, it was just this burning sense that we needed to change things and that if you're going to change things, it had to be the Labour Party. so it just made absolute sense to me to join the Labour Party as soon as I could it was just sort of hardwired in me but it didn't come out of discussions around the kitchen table I think it came out of observing I mean we didn't have a lot of money so I knew there were times when things were really tough and we couldn't afford to pay all the bills so we'd have to choose what wouldn't we pay and the one we always chose was the telephone because that was a landline.

12:07It was, I think, a monthly payment or whatever it was. And if you had your phone cut off, you didn't have to pay that bill. So it was quite tough in that sense. I mean, not pleading poverty or anything, but it was, you know, we knew what it was like not to have a lot of money. And this goes to sort of food as well because my mum and dad almost never had anyone around because my dad felt that people disrespected him because he worked in a factory. He felt this really strongly that people looked down on him. And you know when people come round for dinner or whatever it is, and you don't know, you're meeting people for the first time, you inevitably have that discussion.

12:43Well, what do you do for a living? And he hated that discussion, because he felt that as soon as he said he worked in a factory, people sort of went quiet and didn't quite know what to say. Did you feel like that when you were at school, if kids asked you what your dad did? I didn't feel like that, but it's given me something I've held on to all my life, which is a real sense that respect and dignity are for me probably the two most valuable and important values in life and I and that that I think was deep in me and I think it's what drove me to say I want to be in the Labour Party and to change things and you know and that then took me on a different course to my dad because my dad did his skills education his technical skills at night school whereas I got the chance to go off to university so this was the sort of um the opportunity that I was now getting that others hadn't had and my dad hadn't had to be your dad yeah he was yeah yeah he was did he read a lot he read a lot um he listened to music a lot he listened to classical music but there was no chance of him going to university when he was growing up it was you're going out to get a job and you need the technical skills to do it so that's what he did but he wanted it yeah i don't know this this sense that he wasn't valued because of what he did and that really burnt away at him and and in the end stopped them having people around and then we wouldn't go out to eat i don't remember ever going to a restaurant as a child ever we did go you know if we're on holiday did you have fish and chips we're on holiday we'd have takeaway fish and chips on the birthday of any of us um and that would be takeaway bring it home and then when we're on holiday we went to the lake district every year because my mum loved the lake district and so um we always went there and we would then occasionally eat at pubs sort of pub food in the evening but beyond that never i mean i honestly can't remember going to a restaurant with my mom and dad i do still like fish and chips vinegar on vinegar definitely Yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:45Very important. But then, so I then got the chance to go, you know, on a journey that took me away from that sort of small town working class base to Leeds University, which was an incredible journey. And one of the speeches I gave the other day was about smashing the class ceiling and breaking the link between where children and young people start in life and where they can get to. and too many children young people are still their future is determined by the earnings and income of their parents rather than their own ability. This is a moral mission like none other but for me I was now starting a different journey which was off to university which was fantastic and so I mean it was eye-opening because you go from a small town to a city.

15:35I've never really been to a big city like this before. I'd gone as far as Croydon in South London but I hadn't got to, hadn't got to, you know, a city like Leeds. And so suddenly you're, you know, this is a big city, it's diverse, there's lots of things going on. And suddenly my horizon for food just expanded massively. Where, where were the restaurants or the places that you're going out and eating? Indian restaurants. I'd never been to an Indian restaurant. This was fantastic. Yeah. You know, Chinese restaurants, you know, curry chips, you know, curry chips, Leeds. I remember the first time I ever tasted it.

16:11on your chips curry sauce on your chip but that's kind of northern thing isn't it yeah yeah it's not southern but it was such a you know that sort of journey opportunity social mobility call it what you like but it was suddenly my world was opening up and that included food because of the fact that we'd always eaten pretty did you live in the hall of reticent i did yeah to start with and did you um and then you shared a flat then i shared a flat for the second can you cook yes i love cooking Do you? What was one of your university delights that you would offer up to your friends? I don't think delights would be the word.

16:47We had six of us in the house and we had a rota where each of us kicked one night in a week for everybody else. Oh, you had a rota? Was it all blokes? No, no, no. Because Phil's very democratic. Yeah. Three blokes, three girls in the house. All studying the same thing? No, different things. so I had one of my very best friends who was studying law with me and then other there was one person I'd been at school with then various others that we sort of connected with as we went on the journey but you know as for the it was the food was cheap as chips food because the most important thing was the ingredients had to be cheap because you're a student you didn't have much money and it was you know chili con carne or coronation chicken oh that sounds quite fat Chili com cot, yeah.

17:31When did you give up meat then? I gave up meat probably about 25 years ago. So after university, I gave up meat. Why? As a matter of principle. Okay. And that's why I struggle with it, because I love meat. Oh, do you? Oh, God. I love it. God, you really are principle. I wouldn't be that principle. And to start with, I gave up fish as well. But then I went back to fish because I found it too much to lose. But then I got together with Vic, my wife. She's been proper vegetarian in the sense she doesn't eat meat or fish. She did that when she was eight or nine years old. So no chicken soup on a Friday night?

18:12No chicken soup. Mock chicken soup. It's very good. Mock chicken soup? Yeah, yeah. Tell me about it. Try it one day. It's nice. It's good. So how do you make it? Well, she does it with just a sort of mixed thing. Vegetables. Yeah. Matzo balls? We've got, yeah, yeah. Okay. Then we've got two children. So our boy is 15 and our girl is 12. Do you cook meat for them? So our girl has never in her life tasted meat or fish because... Until she gets to university. Well, this is the thing. She's having that chilli con carne. So as soon as... What we said to the kids was, by the time they're about 10, it's up to you.

18:47Yeah. You know, we don't have meat or fish in the house. We don't cook it. Until they're about 10, obviously they're just eating with us. Oh, I've got veggie friends who've always cooked meat for their children. Yeah, so we never did. And then at the age of 10, I said, you can do what you like. And our boy said, great. So he orders, the moment we go out, there's a delivery for Kentucky Fried Chicken or McDonald's. So he's taken full sort of liberty with the licence to do what you like. But when you go out, he orders it? No, he will order meat. In front of you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, right. No, we're not bothered by that.

19:18And you just smell it and think, oh, wow. This goes back. So if you give up meat or fish on a matter of principle, you still sort of hanker after it. That's terrible. And so when he brings it in the house, it's like, hmm. Do you do any of the kind of substitute, like we do the this bacon or something like that and you'll do the seitan or, you know, the kind of... Or Linda McCartney's. Linda McCartney's, yeah. Yeah, we do all of that, the corn sausages, the Beyond Meat burgers, which are really good. Yeah. Really good. Yeah. I mean, quite a lot of the time if we're cooking, we don't bother with that because if you're doing pasta or something like that, you don't need to.

19:52what's the veggie food like in the house of commons oh the food in the house of commons is pretty you know it's nothing special really i thought it was quite somebody needs to set up a really nice sort of restaurant or takeaway in the house seriously well listen i i keep saying you're about to go into retirement maybe you should do that yes a really nice salad bar a fresh salad bar or something you don't even to have a fresh salad bar no no oh wow so this is you've got to come in okay you've got to come in as my guest to parliament and have a look around okay and see what you make of the food and then you know to get in there and do something can i ask when you're having dinner or lunch in the house of parliament do you only sit with people from the same party or have you got mates in the the Tory party or the Liberals?

20:40Or is it like quite kiki? No, there is almost never a slot put in my diary for lunch. And therefore there isn't such a thing as a lunch break. Therefore, you know, I'll be eating on the move or between meetings, et cetera. But the second part of your question is really interesting, which is, you know, what's the, is it all tribal? Yeah. For some people it is like that, not for me, because I think I came into politics later in life. I'd done other jobs. You know, I'd been a lawyer. So you'd sit next to Nadine and have you? Well, I'm not sure about that. But there are, you know, there are Tories and other MPs that I get on perfectly well with.

21:19Well, that lovely lady who spoke about Harriet Harman last week. Yeah, she was really good. Wow, wasn't she fabulous? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, when in the middle of the really fierce Brexit debates, I was leading for our party on it. So in the middle of the debates, my dad was dying. And it was awful. And so I'd have to sort of be in the middle of this debate and then leave that at the end of the debate and then get a train down to the hospital it was in. And it was a really... It was the first time I had that very intense public person, private grief going on. And two or three of the Tory MPs reached out to me.

21:58Oh, come on. Particularly when he died. And that sort of thing, you can't ever say. There's such tribal politics that we can't get on and do things together or talk or have coffee or eat if we had time. So, you know, I'm not a great believer in that, you know, divisive politics. Well, we were thinking, Jesse's been thinking about how divided our country is at the minute. Well, it's more about the culture wars and just kind of how it feels so polarising, and particularly for my generation. It just feels like, I mean, yeah, everyone's got an opinion and I feel like the right really use marginalised groups such as immigrants or queer people, trans people, to really use them as pawns.

22:42And how do you feel? Do you feel exhausted by it? I feel... You feel responsible. I feel responsible, particularly for... I have a huge queer following and I feel incredibly responsible when I'm speaking to you, the leader of opposition, to kind of... How do I phrase one question to you when this is about food and family and there's so many questions that so many people have. I think you're the first person when we've mentioned you were coming on and everybody had a question for you. Oh, that's great. Every single person. That's really good. I mean, not all that friendly, Keir. That's absolutely understood.

23:16You can imagine, yeah. No, no, no. You know, that's completely understood. And so it should be. There's always going to be that combination of people who support what you're doing, want to challenge what you're doing. But how do you unite everybody when it feels so polarising? and how do you you you know you talk about respect and dignity being so important for you and like how does how do you how do you please everybody you can't please everybody right no you can't please everybody but you can what joe cox who's a fantastic fantastic friend and mp came into parliament on the same day as me and you know just a tragic story but obviously she did her maiden speech when she said we've got more in common than that which divides us that is so powerful and so meaningful and i think that amongst the reasons um the conservatives have gone into this toxic space of divide um culture wars is because they haven't got a record that they can stand on they haven't got any leadership that they can really believe in and therefore they've gone to this divisive place and that that relies on a politics that says let's find the points of difference so if you and i are going to have a conversation let's find where we don't agree rather than trying to find what we do agree on.

24:26So it becomes an echo chamber and then nothing can go. Yeah, we have to break out of that because it's exhausting. It puts people into camps they don't really want to be in. They entrench in those camps. And it means that there's a sort of collective lack of sort of belief in politics as a force for good because everybody just goes further and further to one side or other in the debate and just shouts at each other or shouts past each other. So nobody's listening in this. It's very corrosive for the idea that I really believe in, which is that politics ought to be a force for good. So we have to find a way to get through that.

25:00And there are, I mean, this is going back to the thing about different MPs. After Joe Cox died, Theresa May joined the sort of campaign around loneliness, which was one of Joe's sort of themes, on a cross-party basis. so there is the ability to do that and we desperately need to get back to that I mean Kit, it's such a task that you have on your hands and I just don't know where you start like when, if you get into power where do you start, like what do you start with immigration like it feels, does it not feel rather, I mean you can't and why do you want to do it because I want to change the country for the better I absolutely passionately want to do you think about the impact on your kids and what do you think You know, that they're going to be followed by horrible right-wing press trying to bring you down or trip you up.

25:54Yeah, it's a journey, as all these things are. I didn't come into Parliament to be leader of the Labour Party or to become the Prime Minister. I came into Parliament in the hope that Ed Miliband would win the 2015 election and I might just about become the Attorney General or something in his covenant. So this wasn't something... And the election, getting Labour into government, is not about me. It's not about me going through the door number 10. It's not about my shadow cabinet becoming the cabinet. It's not even about the Labour Party. It's about the country. It's about taking the country forward.

26:25So that's where I sort of come from on it. And that drives me forward. And I know there's tough things and we'll have to do tough things and make difficult decisions. And I try not to get ahead of myself. But what you touched on there, one of the things that I'm most worried about is the impact on our children. now we've been as protective as i hope we can be so we never name them in public we never have promotional photos done with them and you continue to not do that when you're primate if you're going to be hard yeah it's going to be hard i mean obviously we're out and about with them and so people know who they are and they see them but by and large that's been respected and protected so that they can get on with their lives i do worry though because our boy was 15 the other week So he will, I'm assuming the election is next year, either May or October, he will be 16.

27:18And our daughter is 12, going on 16 or 17 already. She will be 13. These are really important ages. And it will have an impact on their lives. Have you spoken? I mean, who's had, if you make it to number 10, who's had similar age groups in there? Because Tony Blair's were younger. Tony's were a bit younger. and then Ed's were a little bit younger as well. And Boris has got so many that we don't... I mean, he's got a few in every decade. So I don't know. I can't remember now the age of David Cameron's children. They were young. They were quite young. And then he sadly lost a child as well while he was in...

27:54Yeah. But like today, Jesse's been in the sports day with the mums race. Are you participating in sports days and things like that? Not anymore. Why not? Football injury. No, because how old are your children now? Six, four and two. So what happened to us, and I think this happens to every parent, is you lovingly walk the kids to school and pick them up. And I used to make a real habit, however busy I was, to try and make sure that several days a week I was there at the school gates. Because I do not want to be that man, and it is usually men, who say in years to come, I wish I'd spent more time with your kids.

28:31If you want to spend more time with your kids, spend more time with your kids. but there does come a point and it's going to come I'm afraid probably the last year at primary school where certainly our kids said oh don't can you can you just drop me at the corner dad um and because they're growing up and the idea of me pitching up to now secondary school for them would be something that would you know that's just they'd have a heart attack they do not want me there on sports day this is coming I'm afraid it's coming no Jesse I want to know you've got teenagers they must be politically minded or are they completely kind of just don't want to know about it do you have debates with them around the dinner table is it a very different situation than what it was so they wanted to join the conservatives could you imagine that we do talk politics we talk you know broadly i try not to impose it on them obviously what are they most interested about talking to you about oh work the job what goes on i mean genuine so our boy came into parliament last week yeah and was fascinated came into some of the debates sat in the debates he knew more of our front benches than i thought i mean he recognized them so he would he would say i'm not i'm not interested in politics and he says in very strong terms i'm not going into politics he's he's decided having watched me that he's not going to become a lawyer he's not going to become a politician but it's quite interesting that deep down he's beginning to sort of explore those ideas um our Our girl, slightly less, she's only 12, so she's just developing those ideas.

30:04And I wouldn't thrust it on them. I mean, we've only got two rules for our kids, which is happy and confident. So I'm not, we wouldn't say they've got to go off to university, they've got to become this, that or the other. We genuinely just want them to be happy and confident. Yeah, I mean, that's all you want, right? It's, yeah, and kind, maybe, add kind. And kind, yeah. I think I've done all right with you then, darling. Yeah, very good. You're quite confident and you're happy. Yeah, doing great things. I'm doing okay. I'm now terrified about my children and being happy, confident. No, but congratulations on everything you've achieved.

30:33I mean, it's incredible. Thank you. All the music stuff. Thank you. Through the roof. You know, trying. Let's talk about music, actually. I went clubbing over the weekend. I want to know last time you went clubbing here. Oh, gosh, I can't remember. You're into me. I really enjoyed your Desert Island Discs. Oh, yeah. Well, I'll tell you a very funny story about that. Because, obviously, what I tried to do was pick songs that meant something to me on the journey. so Jim Reeves was the first one because it reminded me of my mum. I went through classical music, you know, Northern Soul I love, Orange Juice, Edwin Collins, that sort of thing.

31:07But I ended with Stormzy with Bridge Over Troubled Water, which I think is a fantastic, a beautiful song. It was actually a Grenfell tribute song as well, and it's beautiful. And our kids are quite into Stormzy, particularly our boy. And so it was something that ended in. No, I haven't. although I went to his record company and they played me his latest album, which is really good, really, really good. And he was sort of texting them at the time saying, what does he think of it? What does he think of it? So I chose that as my final song. And that's fine. And then I was at a pub. This was about six months ago.

31:48And just with Vic and a couple of friends of ours. So just, you know, very social. and some guy comes up to me at the bar and says you're a fraud and I said well you're you know no wonder we don't vote for you you're a fraud I said you know what you know I'm on my I'm with my wife what are you talking about he said desert island discs and I thought of all the challenges I've had on our politics of policy this guy's actually challenging me he said no he said you don't listen to Stormsley you're not being honest and I said did you listen to it because I wasn't I wasn't saying I listened to Stormzy.

32:23I was using records which told a story or reminded me of bits in my life. But it was so interesting to be challenged on. Is that then when you made the call to the label to be like, can I go in and listen to Stormzy's new record, please? No, but I should have been. The press team being like, quick, quick, you must go and listen. So interesting. Are people often rude to you? Do they come up when you're out and say, oh? By and large, people are really positive. Good. And that is great. but you know it can go either way but by and large and I'm still in the relatively lucky position I can walk down the high street I mean you know without too much aggration those things change how do taxi drivers treat you if you get in a black cab yeah because they've always got something to say they're not big fans of Sadiq I have to say no well I I now have to have a oh you can't go in a black cab a police team with me um every time I'm out so that makes for a different lifestyle.

33:19Thank God for that then. So I haven't been. Please report back. No, but you know what black cab drives are like? Should we eat? Yeah. Oh, God. I mean, you must just be exhausted. It's busy. It's busy. Do you think it will be even more full on if you get into number 10? Yes, it's really hard. And, you know, again, that's just the way it is. But then it's a question of trying to ensure that we find time so i'm really really clear i will not do unless it's absolutely urgent or a special reason i won't do a friday night event so at six o 'clock we'll go home and we will be as a family home on a friday night together vic's dad comes over sometimes um he's 94 and um so he comes to us at the weekend quite a lot for people that don't know your wife is jewish yes she is yes um So her family are from Poland, originally.

34:15So Friday nights is Shabbat? Yeah, so we do, particularly when her dad's there, we do prayers, etc. But we're all in and I want that to last for as long as it can because the kids are in and that sort of thing. I got bat mitzvahed at the end of last year. Oh, did you? Yeah, and when I remember, we do Friday nights And there's something incredibly meditative about that feeling of being able to kind of say goodbye to the week and actually pause for a moment and look each other in the eye and have a conversation over the dinner table. Yeah. And say the brockers. And I don't know, there's something I find incredibly reassuring about it when I'm not working on a Friday night or, yeah.

34:58I think that's probably right. And for me knowing, and for the kids knowing, Vic knowing, that we, you know, barring exceptional weeks, we will all be there on a Friday night together, is a sort of rock in the week, if you like. You know, now, a lot of it's spent arguing about if we're going to get a takeaway, what we're going to get, or all the rest of it. But it is really nice and special.

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36:36Oh, look at this. Mum. That is... So that's pill-pull prawns. OK. Right. So, speak, Mum. You tell Keira what you want. That's a tomato tart. Lovely. That's pill-pull prawns, like just garlicky prawns. That's... It's like guacamole, but no avocado. Yeah. You don't like avocados? No, no. What's that about? Just the taste of the taste. So it's guacamole and avocados and bananas. Okay, well, we're all right. I can't eat or even smell bananas. There's something about bananas. This is from when I was very, very young. Well, this is aubergine. No, that's absolutely lovely. So that's tomato, that's pea lentils, and that's courgette salad.

37:20Fantastic. House of South to whatever you want. That's enough for about 100 people. And I love salad. Salad is fantastic. Good. So this is really good. Let's hope this works. So what did you have for lunch today? He doesn't stop for lunch. Today I had... Somebody fed him. Today I had a tuna sandwich. I've had lorry loads of tuna sandwiches since I've been in this job. It's just, you know, this was during the middle of a meeting. Tuna sandwich. Homemade or...? No, no, just brought in from Pret today. Gotta love it. What, the baguette or the sandwich? Baguette. Yeah, but it's... You know, the routine for the week is sort of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday in Parliament or headquarters in London, then out on the road for the rest of the time.

38:06So lunch is just... I can't remember the last time I stopped and had lunch as a meal, as it were, rather than just a sandwich on the road or a sandwich whilst we're working. This is really fantastic. Do you like it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good. The tomato, it's really good. It's delish. Really nice. It's really good. I like it. Jessie usually say. A chef called Alison Roman, who's amazing, came on, and this is from her new recipe book. Is it from her new mum? Yeah. I love cooking. Do you? So what do you do? I find it so relaxing. I know this sounds really weird. And I'm not going to pretend I do it every night, because I don't.

38:41And Vic does most of the cooking during the week for the kids. I mean, quite often I'm not home in time for them anyway. But on a Saturday, I love it. so I've got a sort of routine of there's Craig Charles to Radio 6 Funk and Soul but it's 6 o 'clock I love it so that's the point at which I'll go into the kitchen so you're not listening to Dad Ringers no so 6 music is your choice and then I've got it on 6 o 'clock and I start chopping away and preparing and just popling around the kitchen I love it what was your last meal that you cooked that you can remember Well, so I cook nearly every week.

39:24So the latest one, I love tandoori salmon. And I've had fantastic. We were up in Glasgow with the team. Mr. Sings in Glasgow. Oh, I don't know it. That's a really fantastic curry restaurant. The best tandoori salmon I've ever had. Okay. Really, really brilliant. Amazing. So I thought, right, I've got to cook this. so then I've sort of had several goes at it and so that's probably the last thing but I had because Vic and the kids don't eat fish so we got these corn pieces which I also did you know tandoori like paneer is it almost it's almost like chicken it's intended to be sort of imitation chicken and is it nice yes it's good and there are other dishes that I love doing on a Saturday.

40:19I mean, the problem I run into is I want it to be as different and as elaborate and as experimental as possible because that's part of the enjoyment is seeing what it's like, different ingredients, etc. But then for the kids, it's like, we want pasta and tomato sauce. We don't want to try anything else. So I get into this battle. So I have to do sort of pasta bakes that are as elaborate as I can get away with until it gets to the point where they won't enjoy it or eat it. Okay, well, this leads us into last supper you're going to this is the last supper so you're the last one you don't have to be dying death row thing because it makes me feel horrible so you're going on a desert island for about six months no I'd say let's go a year so I one of the things I did when I was a lawyer was work with the death penalty project which is a project based here in London to minimise and get rid of the death penalty across the world, particularly in the English-speaking former colonies.

41:24So I did extensive cases in the Caribbean, probably went to the Caribbean about 50 times, to represent people and to fight for people not to be hung. So I got as close as I think, or closer than I wanted to be, to that feeling of... Wow, is there still the death penalty there now? Yeah, there is. I mean, because of the work of the Death Penalty Project, it's been much reduced um but it's and their hunger it's death by hanging yeah so i mean and that's very you know when you're in a the prisons in you know jamaica trinidad they're not nice places as you can imagine sitting in a dark cell with someone who is um destined to be hung it's really it's an incredible moment and obviously we're fighting to save normally his life the were some women that we represented in Uganda um but um knowing that in this legal case if you get it right this person will live and if you don't and you don't succeed then they will in all likelihood be hung how many did you save say oh I mean I'd say we because we worked as a team the whole time um hundreds we went when we went to uganda um there were over 400 people in one test case that we did at the same time and we met them there in the in kampala which is obviously the center of uganda the prison is up high up on a hill and you go in the prison it's high security all of the prisoners are in white shorts and white vest and we sat there with all 400 of them talking them through the case we're going to be running on their behalf.

43:04It's like a film set. And some of them had been there 20 years. Some of them were under 18 when they'd been convicted. And in the end, in that case, we won on behalf of all 400 of them, which didn't mean they were released from prison, but it meant they weren't going to get hung. And they could have the appropriate sentence for whatever they'd done. It was an incredible thing to do. So, you know, it was really, you know, that was as close to the last supper as I wanted to get. Did you ever see them eating their last supper? Did you ever stay with them for that part? No, we were never there. And most of the time, I'm really happy to say, the people we represented, we managed to get off death row.

43:50And so we didn't very often go through that horror of someone you're representing. Okay, so you're not going on death row. So this is the last step. I'm going to go, I don't know, I'm going to go to a nice island or something. You're going to go to a nice island, but limited food. Oh, we're limited food. Yeah. So you've got to choose a starter, a main, a pudding and a drink of choice. Starter, I'm going to go for a salad. Really? Yeah. Jesus, Keir. Come on, you're going to lose a few votes for that. I love salad. I love salad. And I'm going to go for a seaweed salad with chilli. Oh my goodness, I've never heard of this.

44:25It's fantastic. So this goes, this isn't intended to link, but now it does. When we were doing all this case in the Caribbean, we used to have to go via, from the top end of the Caribbean, you go in via Miami and then fly across. And so we would be several out in Miami. And there were two dishes in Miami. There was blackened fish, which was fantastic. And seaweed salad with chilli, a big bowl of it. So is it like sunfire? Yeah, it's a bit sort of thinner and fruity. I can't see with you. No, I know, but it's a different kind. It's not as salty. It is fantastic. Because it's salty. Salty with chilli in...

45:01It is really... Have you ever tried to make it? No. Okay. I will try one day. I've not even ever really found it anywhere else. I've never... It must be on... It's worth going to Miami for that. But it was really incredible. Okay, I like that. You kind of won me back. Okay, fine. Although I nearly lost you with starting with salad. Hopefully that's... And then I'm going to go for my tandoori salmon, because I love it. From Mr. Sings? I'll probably have to go take away from Mr. Sings. Fine, no problem. I don't know where this lasts up. Can you make it? Have you just put your tandoori paste? Yeah, so that's...

45:33He's been trying to perfect it. That's the one I've done most recently, which is... And I've done it now three or four times to try and get it right. With all the... Get all the ingredients, make the paste, marinate it. Don't do that. Really? I'm too short. You're a perfectionist. Yeah, but I also... I tend to follow the recipe. rather than just sort of doing it without. Okay, I'll give you Alison Remen's book. Okay, yeah. But it's so... So that's, I mean, that's the sort of most recent thing that I've learned to make. I'm also trying to perfect the sort of the perfect arabiata from scratch, which, again, just getting the right blend.

46:09And that the kids will eat. So they like spicy? Yes. Okay. You like spicy? I like spicy, yeah. Okay, so... So my tandoori salmon is... Any sides? Made by Mr. Singer. I'm not going to make this meal. Any sides? Yeah, probably some... We always get sort of dals and that sort of thing. Which naan do you go for? Plain naan. Plain naan. Really? Yeah. Why? Which one do you go for? Fish orange? Show off? No, the reason is because the kids wouldn't really eat anything other than plain naan. So there's a bit of accommodation there. Okay. And pilau rice. Yeah. They would prefer white rice, so we have a little battle about that.

46:45Okay. So I'm going to have this tandoori salmon. And then pud? I think lemon cheesecake. Oh, do you like a cheesecake? A baked cheesecake or a non-baked cheesecake? Baked. Baked. So like Jewish cheesecake? Yeah, very light. Yeah, a proper New York cheesecake. Yeah. Yeah, I like that too. So that's where I'd go, I think. And what are you drinking? I drink Pinot Grigio because this is Vic's wine of choice. Oh, really? Yeah. You're very accommodating. She's very easy to please. Is she allowed to have this meal with me, by the way? Yeah. We might not have the Tandoori Salmon then. I might have to think about something else for the middle course.

47:25But your team, before you came, said that you drink beer and wine. And I realised that I have no clue about beer. So do you drink an IPA or a lager? Which one? IPA. Usually things like Doomba, but our local pub is called Pineapple. Fantastic local pub. The Pineapple, that's like a rowdy one. No, it's not rowdy. The pineapple, like the one that's in Camden? Kentris Town. Yeah, it's like a fun, not rowdy, but like, I've been to parties there. I bet you you've been on a night when there's something going on at the O2. Because it's a sort of stop-off point on the way. No, I've been like, the pineapple's like a fun one.

48:04It is. I'm not saying it's not fun, but it's more a sort of... When I was in Man Like Me, they were a Camden-based band. They'd always have like, afters at the pineapple. Interesting. Okay, so what do you drink there? They've got an IPA called Pineapple, which is really good. And who makes it? Which brewery? I don't know, actually. Okay. See, I know nothing about beer. So the only time I'd drink a beer from IPA is if I play football and it's a hot day, you've kind of got to have a cold lager. Because it's just, I don't know, it's just one of those things that just goes with it. But wine is, white wine, I drink red as well, but Vic doesn't drink red.

48:43How easy is it to switch off from trying to become the leader of this country? Really hard. And sometimes if I've got something going on, I find it almost impossible. And then that's really hard for Vic and the kids. Because it's obviously I'm distracted and I'm only half listening. I'm not engaged. And it's a really bad thing. But it is very difficult. So if I'm doing media in the morning, for example, I did Laura Kunzberg this week. Was that fun for you? Is it ever fun? Well, you know, the interview was 25 minutes or something, but the amount of time goes into it. So that means that the Saturday evening before is just completely distracted because I'm thinking about it.

49:28And then that is really frustrating for Vic and the kids because it's obvious that I'm sort of half detached from it. And even if I'm in the same room as them, I'm, you know. And the kids joke and say to each other, he can't do two things at once So when they're trying to have a conversation with me, when I'm trying to sort of look at something for the morning. We wondered how you manage, because we've got a majority quite right-wing press in this country. I mean, there's only two papers that I think that are supportive of the Labour Party. How do you manage that? Well, the first thing is I read all the papers every day.

50:02We get them delivered. So I go through... God, how long does that take? Well, I say read. I look at each one to see what's the lead story, what's the editorial, what are the sort of interesting bits and pieces of today? What are they saying about us? What are they saying about me? Do your kids get fed up when they're mean about you? Or do you think they're quite protected to not know about that? They're a mixture, a really good mixture, of being protected, but also, you know, bringing me back down to earth the whole time. And I'll give you just two examples of that. So last year I won the Spectator Politician of the Year Award.

50:37So that's, you know, Spectator. That's all time, yeah. And they gave me a framed certificate, which I then took home about 10 o 'clock at night. And our boy is sitting on the settee with his feet up watching telly. And I came in and I gave it to him and I said, what do you think of this? And he looked at it. And then without really taking his eyes off the telly or his feet off the settee, he passed it back to me and said, how'd you blag that then? Oh, my goodness. It was just fantastic. And the other one was our daughter. This was a few years ago now. When she said, what time are you going to be home?

51:08and I said oh I'm gonna be late tonight I'm afraid why what are you doing I'm doing a fundraising dinner she said what's that I said well it's a dinner where people pay money to hear somebody speak and she said who's speaking and I said me and she said why would anyone pay to hear you speak and it was like a slow motion sort of car crash you could almost sense where she was going and Now she'd do it to be cheeky. But then that was just this incredulity. It's a really fantastic leveller. So the moment I walk through the door, I've got to be dad. I've got to be dad. And I love that. That's great.

51:50And that's as it should be. How do they ever go, dad, so-and-so says you're being a dick on this. Or like, so-and-so says that you really are being mean about this. Have they ever brought home politics? Because in the playground, people talk, parents talk. No, they don't. They don't... I mean, now... And this is nice. Lots of people come up and want a selfie and that sort of thing. And they get really fed up about that, particularly our boy. Because if I walk down the high street with him, he wants me to be with him, not constantly being stopped and having to talk to other people. And that's...

52:26Trying to find that space with them is quite hard sometimes. and there's no end of people who say, I can see you're with your family, so I won't interfere and then sit down and have a sort of 20-minute conversation. You're public property, aren't you, really? Yeah, but that does, they get a bit fed up with that. Do you go to parties at Downing Street? Have you been invited? I've never been invited to one of the Downing Street parties, no. Are you kidding? Thankfully, particularly the ones during COVID. Otherwise, I might not be sitting here.

52:57No. I think all Prime Ministers make a habit of keeping leaders of the opposition well away from Downing Street. It's a bit mean. Yeah, I mean, I've obviously been there, but not... So, have you been inside? Yeah, yeah. And what's it like? It's a working... I mean, it's a fantastic building, iconic. What do you think of the recent decor? I haven't seen that decor. You haven't been close, yeah. Rishi might have changed it. Oh, Rishi probably has. Maybe he likes their style. I thought there was some story about it. It had been changed, but I don't know. What do I say? But anyway, I haven't been there.

53:30I would like to know where... You've talked about the pineapple. You've talked about Mr. Singh's. Are there any go-to spots that Sir Keir Starmer couldn't live without? Any local restaurants that you absolutely adore? Yeah, there's an Italian called Rosella up the road, which is run by a friend of ours, and it's fantastic. and if we're not eating at home we'll sometimes go there on a friday and again that's where vic and her dad um can get together and where her sister will come with her daughter um so that's that's just a really locally based straightforward italian restaurant that is probably our go-to if we're going to go out there's also a really good curry house up in highgate where do you get The nearest place now is just in Highgate.

54:21But fish and chips, if I'm getting fish and chips, I wouldn't normally get it as a takeaway because Vic's not going to eat it. Our daughter's not going to eat it. So that would be more when I'm on the road with the team. Oh, yeah. If we're staying over in a hotel or something like that. But good, good fish and chips, hard to beat. Would you like a bit, Keith? I will do, yeah, please. That looks fantastic. I hope so. Really fantastic. Just a small bit for me, please. Okay. like that? Yeah, I mean I almost never eat desserts, it's just... Why? I don't know, I'm not particularly sweet toothed, so I just don't...

54:54Just pavlova made with nectarines I'll have that one and then you have a more beautiful one No, I don't mind, I'm fine So I very rarely make dessert I mean, because it's not really my thing At some stage I do want to try and get into everybody says baking is a really good thing to get into. I guess if you like cooking and it's kind of, you can switch off when you're doing it. Yeah I just find baking quite tedious. I'm really bad at it. Right. But why not? And you're a perfectionist, so you could master, you know, like, I feel like it requires attention to detail. I'll give it a go at some stage.

55:29I'll give it a go at some stage. It's better that one than you think. Oh, I honestly don't mind. I do. Before we let you go, is there one smell or scent that can take you back somewhere, happy or sad, or taste? I think the smell of cut grass takes me back to beginning to play grass football and going onto a pitch that's been cut. The first time I went on a decent pitch was probably when I was about 10, playing in an under-11 league, where they cut the grass. And it's that smell of fresh grass that's just been cut. You do still get it at football grounds. Not so much because now the grass is integrated a bit with other stuff.

56:12you don't get the same cut smell but that takes me back to sort of cycling around Surrey and Kent I played for Kent Boysley for a team there and just walking on the pitch and I can't tell you how joyful walking onto a pitch is for me it's just stepping onto the grass with a football you could be the Arsenal mascot I'm not sure about that, we want to wish them luck are the conversations you know you have that person talking to you in the pub about your stormsy selection in the stands are people asking you very different do you feel like in different in different spaces you are asked repeatedly a similar question no there's different things people ask yeah um can you enjoy the game or you just get hounded with questions no i can enjoy the game because around us the people we were with there i've known for so two or three rows in front one of the guys in front that we've got to know through sitting there his wife sends pachoras on the last game in within a top you know there's just thing so that it's a bit like the people i play football with they wouldn't bombard me with things about work um because they know i've been in those seats for i don't know how many years now so they knew me before i was even a politician and so they wouldn't do that but you do i mean you you do get it at football you know people come up to you people have ideas people have challenges um people tell you what they're passionate about so you do and people do notice what you've been doing um so occasionally say they'll say i saw you did this that week or that you know so it does cut through but um i mean in the in the crowd in the stand at football it's all about the football it's just you get well you know what this is like you just get totally drawn in you're all uh sort of enduring and enjoying you know to shut obscenities out not anymore not anymore since you've been not anymore because somebody will take a picture of that and record me but there's that i mean the moment if you're in the crowd a goal is scored and there's just this all these people you know tens of thousands of people have been doing something else all week live in different places don't all know each other and at that moment they come together and everybody gets up.

58:32It's fabulous. The choreography that is natural in that is absolutely incredible and it's an amazing moment in football. Okay, Keir, when's the general election going to be? I don't know. Do you think it'll be November? Next year. This year? I don't know. I mean, from my point of view, the sooner the better. And I say that because people are really suffering now. They can't pay their bills, their mortgage is going through the roof. every day this government's here it just gets worse so you know for the country's sake we need it soon my hunch is that it'll go at least into the early part of next year could go all the way through to the end of next year yeah yeah you know it's up to the government when they go they'll go at whatever point they think is best for them and there's nothing we can do about that that's just one of the prices of if you lose election you lose the right to say when the next election is so we'll be ready whenever it is Sakia Starmer thank you for joining us on Table Manners it's been lovely to get to know you a little bit better thank you for having me thank you for the food it was delicious but the company's been great thank you and best of luck with all those tuna sandwiches that you're about to enjoy

59:56Well, I really enjoyed speaking to Keir Starmer, his strong sense of public service and public duty, and I hope he gets on and makes a good job of it. And I will still like to see pictures of him eating tandoori salmon, his favourite dish, wherever he goes in the country and around the world. Yeah, so after we did this episode, his team updated us with the very tandoori salmon that he eats and loves to eat at Mr. Singh's in Glasgow. The next time he was there, we got photographic evidence that that was his order and he looked very thrilled to be eating it. And a big smile. Thank you so much for listening to Second Helpings.

1:00:39We'll be back next week with another episode from The Archive.

1:01:13We'll be right back.

1:01:20program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.