Second Helpings - Paul & Mary McCartney

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1:05Hello and welcome to Table Manners, Second Helpings. Buckle up everyone because this one really takes you on a ride. Not my finest hour I would say. No Lenny. Well, it was under quite extreme circumstances that I had to cook and make food to go to meet the fabulous Sir Paul McCartney and his wonderful daughter Mary. we went into central London to his Soho office in this gorgeous Art Deco building and we took the food with us which we'd just cooked out of Linda McCartney's family kitchen cookbook so I'd made vegan chilli con carne, onion rice, salad and avocado and some coconut squares from the cookbook the thing was the facilities weren't how I imagined they were going to be Sir Paul McCartney is too busy making excellent music maybe to be worried about the rather small kitchen on a different floor.

2:08On a different floor. Yes. And your sciatica was playing up. I had very, very bad sciatica. We're still under Covid restrictions. And I had to schlep food up and down quite a long room with my back. And you told me to shush, Jessie. I did. so why don't you just hear what happens next despite us disgracing ourselves and having a Barney in front of them it is a really brilliant episode it's Sir Paul McCartney and Mary McCartney on Table Manor's Second Helpings

2:49Well cheers Well cheers La Cymne Cheers Thank you for having us Cheers Cheers Cheers Cheers. And thank you for inviting us. Yeah. Have that lovely cookbook. Thank you for having us in your office. We're going to have some lunch in a bit. Mum's already opened the bubbly. Yep. Didn't take much. You just needed Mary to enable that. How are you? Good, thank you. Very well. Very good. Very happy to be here doing this. I love this podcast. Oh, you're so sweet. Mary, you've got a new puppy. I've got a new puppy. How old? I'm sleep deprived. He's 11 weeks. He's from Battersea Dogs Home and he is a little ridiculous fluffball.

3:31What have you called him? Very cute. Murphy. Oh, that's a great name. The only name I could get all of the kids and my husband to agree on. The last dog was called Paddy. So it's like a little Irish theme going. I like it. Our Irish heritage. I know, that's right. Oh, McCartney, of course. McCartney. The Emerald Oil. I've just got to tell you. Yes, go on. that I have loved you for a very long time. Never heard that. Are you looking at me? Yeah, looking at you, Paul. I loved you. I stood outside Granada Studios and screamed duly when you just went in in a car. Just let her get this out. I went to, I saw you perform, I think at the Ardwick Apollo in Manchester.

4:12Oh, yeah. And you came to my university when I was on the events comm and you gave us two hours notice and you came with wings with your mum. and you came to Birmingham University and I had to ring as many of my friends as possible because you gave us such short notice. Not short why. Do you know what happened? They rented a U-Haul truck. I saw a picture of it. I mean, you could tell this story. No, that's good. It was a U-Haul truck and we all got in and they were like going back to basics because it was after the Beatles had broken up. Of course, I'm forgetting. I'm saying we all got in. You were a little baby.

4:48I was there as well. She's a little baby. I saw a picture the other day and they just drove, did a road trip and you would say two hours notice because you would go to the car park and then you'd go in and say, do you want us to play a gig tonight? We'd just show up at places, universities, because we figured there'd be captive audience. We'd just show up and we'd say, hello, there's Paul McCartney here. Would you like us to play? We thought it was a prank at first. We thought, no, it's not Paul McCartney. And then it was. And it was so exciting. It was 50p on the door. Yeah. I thought that was reasonable.

5:21Yeah. So was this when Wings was just kind of... It was the very, very beginning of Wings, yeah. And we just needed to get a little bit of road practice. So that was the madcap idea. And we just went up the motorway north. And if we saw a place we liked, we'd sort of ask around, has he got a university here? And then the student union guy would come out because he didn't believe it. Look at his mouth open. He'd come out to our van and slide the window open. hello, poor God. That's how I talk normally. And those must have been the first gigs that mum had ever played in her life. Yeah. I think it was one of the first ones.

6:00They were. She did a lot of percussion. Yeah. Good on a tambourine. Yeah, on a tambourine. And she looked gorgeous. And we're all fascinated by it. So what was it like for you, Mary? I love that, Lenny, you were there. You were there. I was absolutely there. It must have been, I think it was my second year, 1972. Yeah. Not my third year. Yeah, I would have been three. Do you remember touring in those early days? Yeah. What's your memory of that, Mary? Just, I mean, meeting, it's sort of like a family atmosphere. We all just went along. So it was just, we'd follow around, seeing lots of music, going, like, wandering around.

6:36All the crew, I think, are my biggest memories, like playing around with the crew and the roadies. And, you know, they all became family. Like, Mike Wally, the travel agent, is still Uncle Mike to this day, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it was very disorganised, but we just wanted to just go out and just sort of find a gig and do it. But it did mean it was crazy. We'd often show up at the place and they'd say, yeah, you can play tomorrow, so we'd have to find a hotel. There was nothing booked. I mean, it was insane. It was the 70s, dude. Dad, did you do that to avoid press, knowing about it, or did you just do it because you were like, let's go tomorrow?

7:18I think there was a bit of that. There was no pressure. Yeah, I think there was a bit of that. But also it's because we didn't know what we were doing. Did the gigs go well? Yeah. They did. They went very well. Unfortunately, we only knew 11 tunes. So that can go pretty quickly when you're excited. But we used to repeat a couple. Now that's probably an all gig. Fair enough, yeah. Repeat a couple and we said, we've had a request to do Lucille. Yeah, I know we did it earlier. Yeah, Lucille was a high spot. Yeah, Lucille. Yeah, little Richard Lucille. It was great, I must say. And I think it was a good idea because it kind of...

7:58You know, the alternative for me was to just get a big famous group of people and just carry on at the level the Beatles were on. But I kind of liked the idea of going back to square one and just building it all up again. So that was what we did. Must have been really satisfying. It was fun, yeah. It was fun. It was quite hair-raising sometimes, you know. You'd find, like, the worst B &B in town to stay with all these kids. Oh, my God. Yeah, it was an adventure. Adventurous childhood for me. Do you think it was... Mary's friends say she was in a hippie commune. Yeah, one of my friends used to call me a peace convoy child because you'd see the pictures of me dressed in like dungarees with food around my mouth and little plaits in my hair and like pull back onto the farm in Scotland and they were like, really?

8:49It was just a kind of very sort of crazy period because I'd left the Beatles and I just wanted to be sort of very free. So we just did all the things we'd never done, you know. It's a good idea though because it wasn't, it was so different. It wasn't like retracing. Right, yeah. And then Wings ended up in like 75, 76 doing huge stadiums. Yeah, it came around eventually. Yeah, in 76, America was big. But I wouldn't do any Beatles songs and promoters would say, oh, go on, do a Beatles song, you know. I'd say, nope, nope, this is post-Beatles. We're doing Wings or Little Richard or whatever, you know.

9:32It was only when I felt confident enough that we'd now built a new thing and it wasn't all just going to rely on the Beatles, that I started doing Beatles songs, which, of course, were the hits. It's the only ones they wanted to hear, really. Would you do Beatles songs now? When you tour next time, you'll do Beatles songs? Yeah, I do Beatles songs, yeah, because, you know, over the years you get very comfortable with it. So you're talking the 70s, and now I'm completely comfortable with it. And I often say to the audience, you know, we know what you like. I said because when we do a Beatles song the whole place lights up with your phones like a galaxy of stars I said I know you're all listening so when we do one of our new songs it's like a black hole but except except when you do wing songs like live and let die I mean it was exaggerating but it's I actually had a go at him on the last tour because you were like it's like live and let die it's like pyrotechnics and the pyrotechnics guy's called shaky which i love and all these explosions go and it's like live and let die and then suddenly dad felt like around the piano he had to have like flaming fire balls going around front and back and i'm and the explosions front and back i'm like dad really like do you have to like do that to yourself can you he's like but the audience love it like but they can just have The pyrotechnics.

11:08Yeah. I mean, we only do one spectacular pyro number in the whole show. The rest is pretty straight, you know. So we thought we'd give it all we've got. But the flames, I'm like, I can even feel them. Flames are hot. Yeah, I'm like, please, Dad, don't. Sometimes you feel the back of your neck get roasted. I'm like begging him. You smell a singeing. Do you worry about it? I feel like when I asked you, I was like, Dad, please, not with the singeing fire flames. I'm sure the next time you had them front and back and they were just in the front. It's like, if you tell him not to do something, he's like, let's add more of them next time.

11:42So what's it like when you're not playing stadiums and you're not in a tour bus? And back at home, all of you on the farm, were you living on the farm all together? What was the dinner table? Who was cooking? I presume it was Linda. Linda, yeah. And what was one of those memorable meals for both of you? Ooh, well, we got lost. Chef, mum's big, well, mum was American, so it was lots of big, like, salads, big, like, chef salads. Yeah. Lots of pasta dishes. Was she always veggie? When you met her, was she a veggie? No, no, when we first met. You should tell the story of how you became veggie. Yeah, when we first met, the Beatles thing had broken up, so it was pretty, you know, difficult with business meetings and things.

12:31all the kind of things you didn't want. So we kind of escaped to Scotland. And we just lived there. Mary was little, and her elder sister Heather was six or so. And we just went and lived up there and improvised. So we were one day, we weren't veggie at that time, so one day we were just eating Sunday lunch. and it was lambing season, so we saw all these lambs. And you had lambs on the farm. Yeah, and the lambs on the farm, they're all gambling, and what they do is they run from one end of the field, it's like, to the other, and it's as if one of them says, let's go back, yeah, and they all go, so it's just feeling spring and their new lives, and we looked down and we were eating leg of lamb, and we went, oh, okay, wait a minute, Maybe we should do something about this.

13:32And that's the moment we went veggie. Was it tough at the beginning to change your... Were you a big meat eater before that? Not really. No, but I mean, yeah, traditional. And Mum was a great cook. I brought up traditional British cooking. Mum was a great cook. And also you and Mum, because then you guys sat us down and said, we've decided we're not going to eat meat anymore. And you were like, you know, it's your decision when you're outside of home, but we're not going to cook it at home anymore. and so you were great your mum there were lots of conversation about food growing up and that gap on the plate dad was like what are we going to have instead so we debate and talk about it so i think that's why we've become such advocates for yeah doing mum's food brand and doing the cookbooks and things and meat free monday is a way of because not everybody does like if somebody yeah well because of that very reason because if you now today go you're a grown up and you've grown up in a meat-eating family you go i want to do this for my carbon footprint and i'm relating to how this got to my plate i don't want to do it i mean i sympathize and we sympathize it can be kind of like what am i going to eat then so mom and dad we would just listen to them talking about what else so that's what we've done yeah we just had to kind of make it up um but as you say we did eat i think linda did the turkey the best you'd ever tasted it you know you just was really good cook um so the first christmas we weren't going to eat meat was like oh what do we do because i was like proud dad i want i wanted to carve the bird i saw that as like a traditional role you know um and so we had to work something else out so we did we had uh what we called a macaroni turkey oh tell me about a macaroni well it's basically a mac and cheese a really good mac really good mac and cheese it's a baked mac and cheese so it's firm so baked mac and cheese and then it's firm and you leave it um overnight sort of in the fridge yeah so it gets even firmer and then then i can carve it the next day oh and then she gave you She knew that.

15:45Yeah. She knew you needed that carving. That's amazing. And the other one was barbecuing. Again, you know, I saw that. I was like, yeah, I should be the guy out by the barbecue. So what we put in the barbecue. But then so now, no, but the thing is then mum would do the cookbooks to give ideas. People would go, God, if I could eat, they'd come to our house for dinner. And then people would say, look, if I could eat like this, I'd eat more veggie. And eventually she did the book. She'd hand it to them and go, look, you can, here's some ideas. and that did so well that then she was approached by a frozen food.

16:19Was that home cooking? Yeah. And then she was approached and they said, could we adapt some of your recipes into a food line? And that's how the food range came about. So now we can do barbecues with our veggie burgers and the sausages and we have a roast that we can do. So we're not baking the macaroni turkey anymore at home. So the cookbook is the same cookbook from? um the cookbook is the new cookbook the new cookbook is adapting because we what i worked with her on a lot of her food we'd always say me and dad and mom and all our family would talk about food and she just said she would do it now but adapt the ingredients so things where she might use butter she might use olive oil so we've sort of updated and refreshed can i say it's quite exciting well i i i'm not a natural vegetarian i know you're not yeah i'm actually i know you're Okay, and I found that cookbook.

17:12Mary Liss, she loves vegans. I love her. You should feel very lucky we have these two. But I found that cookbook really easy to follow. It was how I would cook. So I do do veggie things, diet, and it's more healthy to eat. And also my husband's very flexitarian, which I think we talk about. He really wants to implement it into our house. And save the planet. Well, it makes sense, doesn't it? But I thought your recipes were very easy to follow. Fantastic. And they work really well. And I also must tell you about the veggie mince. So I think it's the best veggie mince that I've ever used. And we've tried many veggie minces.

17:53I've used lots of veggie minces and there's nothing as good as that. We've been doing it a long time. And that goes back to the beginning of your story. You and mum went veggie, what, in the 70s? Yeah. So I think we've perfected it now. There was nothing there. It's a very good cookbook. Because it's not frightening ingredients either. I mean, they're things that you're familiar with and really tasty. I think it's a... Part of the idea for the cookbook and the recipes that I've done as well is to make, because people are like, if you eat veggie, it's like more ingredients, it takes longer, it's more fuss.

18:24So that's exactly what we try not to do. You're kind of veggineers, aren't you? It's like accessible ingredients. Vegineers? Yeah. I like it. I like it. Can I have that for the name of my next cookbook? Yeah, the veggineers. Oh, my God. Oh, God, I'm licking that for the next cookbook I do. Veggie, Mary MacArthur, Veggie, Mary MacArthur. But, I mean, you know, your family were revolutionary at the time. It's his revolutionary. I'm so proud of them, honestly. And it was mum and dad. It really was. Mum, like, obviously was the cook. And everyone would be a bit like, oh, I'm sure everyone wants to eat meat in your family.

18:55But really, you and mum together were, like, always talking and so positive about it that you never felt like you were missing out, which I think is... So, Mary, when you had friends back for tea, schoolmates did they might no or was it all a bit curious because mom was such a great cook going back to the salad thing yeah i went to my best friend sue's house and she her mom was like do you want salad with your pasty whatever and i said yes and i was like what is she doing she sliced a piece of cucumber and a slice of quarter of tomato and a lettuce leaf and pour salad cream on it and i'm like what is that because you come to our house that's a british salad and actually It was delicious because I didn't have salad cream.

19:34But mum would have like this huge salad bowl and you'd chuck everything in it and toss it with a, you know, salt dressing. So, what was it? So, our friends loved coming to our husband. What was your favourite thing that your mum cooked? What was your special, like, birthday meal? I mean, my comfort thing was her tomato soup, always. Yeah. That was one that you did on... Yeah, you told us very much. We'd been to the south of France and there's a lovely hotel down in the south of France It's called Beaumagnet in Les Beaux. Very posh, like only nine rooms. Oh, wow. Super posh. And I don't know how we'd heard about it, but anyway, we went down there.

20:11I think Grandpa used to go there, maybe. It was really good. And, you know, Linda and I would go in and have a little meal and sort of being all very romantic in the French place. And they had this bisque du Hommade, which was lobster soup. And it looked great and everything. but then when we were veggie she made that as a tomato soup so it was kind of pink and very lovely gorgeous so that was one of her great things that was literally my favorite started my birthday meal and then a quiche yeah she made the most amazing quiche i mean that sort of sat up and bubbled you know it wasn't some quiches you get and they're just sort of flat yeah this was like Dad, do you know when I left home I made a quiche and it just was like didn't rise and I phoned mum and I was like, what the heck, why does yours because mum would take it out and it was like this show stopper, like a souffle and simple turn the oven up to 200 it needs to cook at a higher heat, it fluffs up it was literally all I needed to know Oh wow So okay, well let's go, this is what we ask everybody and Mary knows this Last supper, starter, main, pud drink of choice you can either combine or you can go you can go solo both of you no why don't we have a family meal together we will have a family meal let me start with my margarita oh yeah that's the best margarita really not a pizza margarita yeah so that's actually what salt around the edge yes i do um we call it a macarita actually a macarita i mean is it going to be in the line I have to say, the record.

21:53Dad let me put the recipe in my food cookbook, actually. Why is it so good? Come on, tell us. So, I mean, all it is, it's a normal margarita. It's not a normal margarita. It's the best margarita. But I put some orange juice in it. Oh, wow. So a normal margarita is tequila, cointreau or triple sec, and then lime. Yeah. It's a little bit tart for me. So to that, I add. So if I go to a restaurant, this is what you'll hear me say to the barman. Could I have a margarita, please? And I like it straight up with salt just around the outside of the rim. And I can explain that if he needs it. And then I say, and to your normal recipe, just stick some orange juice, couple of dashes of orange juice in the shaker.

22:39Oh, wow. So then you don't need agave. It's just sweetened with that. That is good. And if they do the salt on the inside, I'm going to sound obsessive here. No. But if they do it on the salt, you have this great drink, and then the last sip is salt. You've drunk a few margaritas in your time, Paul. Which one do you like the best? No, that's true. And don't you now, haven't you developed it, because you're asking about the favourite tequila. Do you still use a blank, like two types of tequila, or have you moved away to just one again? I use, you know, to mix it up, I sometimes use two types of tequila.

23:16Which ones? Silver and dark. Oh, I didn't even know there were two colours. No, no, it's Blanco. You're still on Cosmopolitan. She doesn't think you carry Bradshaw. We need a margarita night, Lenny. Honestly. Yeah. They're the best. So we're going to have Dad's margarita with nuts and olives. All right. Just to sort of get ready. Then can we have the tomato soup? Yeah. I would like to add something. About the tomato soup. She would make it like the beef, so she would have celery, onions, fresh tomatoes, and then she'd grind it through a thing so that you would get all of the flavours, but then take away sort of the pulp.

23:54And then she'd mix cream into that and season it. Are you allowed cream? Honestly, the most delicious. Well, the Alpro single soy cream works perfectly. Oh, I didn't even know there was one. Your soy cream works really well. You just don't, you don't put it in hot. You put it in cooler and warm it up. And actually, I would argue it actually tastes better because it actually soaks in the flavours, meld in better. So you were going to add something before I rudely interrupted asking for your mother's tomato soup recipe. You were like, I'm going to add something here. Oh, I'm going to add, and I know it's not really going to fit in with, because the last supper can be anything.

24:30I'm going to add, because we are a family obsessed with sandwiches. Completely. Yeah, I've heard about this. I'm obsessed, obsessed. I could almost have, for me personally, the whole thing just be toast, sandwich, French Cheese and tomato sandwich has been on my list. So I'm going to have the mum's tomato soup and I'm going to have one of dad's sandwiches on the side. Are you the sandwich king? Yeah, I'm the sandwich king. I've heard about, on Adam Buxton, I've heard about the bagel with the marmite and the hummus. It's everything. Okay, so sandwich. I've always said, you know, of my career, tanks, I'm going to get one of those little bikes and a little thing on the front and I'm going to go around selling sandwiches probably going to the city where they've got a captive audience I've got it all worked out Isn't that the cutest thing ever?

25:17I'm going to be buying them So what are the feelings? Here's what I do Again it's going to sound a bit obsessive but I don't care I'm having it in my last meal so you need to be Embrace the obsessive What I do is I get a nice onion bagel. You love bagels. From Panzers. I love onion. From Panzers. From Panzers. Yes, we love Panzers. Right, okay, a Panzers. Do you freeze them? So get a nice, fresh Panzers bagel. Yeah, onion. And then an onion. And then I cut it in three. Yeah. So it's kind of slimish. Okay. Because bagels are pretty weighty. So. Like a finger of bagel. No, they're thin. So it's almost like a sandwich.

26:01A normal bagel, but I just. He cuts it. I just slice them into three. Instead of making like a club sandwich, baby. Yeah. I like this. I like it. Carry on. Believe me, you haven't had anything yet. I'm ready. So I do, let's say, if I'm making one sandwich, pop two of those in the toaster, toast them, and then the first thing I will put on it, depending on who I'm making it for. You're making it for my last meal. It's for you. You like Marmite? I like everything you do. She likes Marmite, okay. I'm not afraid of anything you put in a sandwich. All right. So for Mary, I would just, first of all, when it comes out of the toaster, spread a little bit of Marmite on it.

26:41Because can I stop you? Get a bit of taste. Dad has turned the world onto Marmite and hummus on a bagel. You can buy it. Was that because of you? No, it's just the best thing in the world. I'm not claiming it. I put it for you and you weren't keen. No, but I don't think I'd want it mixed. I think you need to make your decision. This afternoon stack at the studio is a cup of tea and a toasted bagel with Marmite and hummus. Anyway, carry on with your sandwich. That's right. I did try the Marmite and hummus, and I don't want to put them down because I love Marmite and I love hummus. And their new products is okay, but not as good as separately.

27:18Anyway, so I'll put some Marmite on this toast, toasted bagel, and I will work on the bottom of the bagel. Yeah. Put the top over there. Yeah. Ready. And then I will then, because the bagel's got a hole in the middle of it, I will then get some lettuce to stop the hole, stop everything falling through. Genius, I will admit. I mean, forget about the song, right? Bagel maker. Can you see why I wanted him to describe this? Because now I have a record of how to do it. So you have a bed of lettuce to make sure you don't lose any filling. Marmite, lettuce, hummus. Okay. Any particular homemade? San Ambrosia.

27:58It's called Ambrosia. San Ambrose. San Ambrosia. It's so good. And they sell that at Panzers as well. Okay. It's a really nice, it's almost like a whipped hummus, and I don't know why, but it's lighter, and it's the only one that my kids will eat. Yeah, so you put a bit of hummus in it, and then anything goes. You know what I'll do is I'll make a few slices of cheese. So hang on, can I stop you? So that is basically the base. It's got to be Marmite, lettuce, hummus, and then anything that's in that area. Okay. So then... I like that. I will slice a little bit of cheddar cheese, say, into little slices.

28:35Arrange that on the hummus where it kind of sticks to the hummus. Sinks in. It's not going to move. Would you get a gaffer? It sinks in. Would you do a pickle? Well, yeah. Ooh, a gherkin. Yeah. Not like a dill pickle sliced. Yeah. Lovely. I got some from Panzers the other day. They were nice. The only thing I'm worried about is you toasting the bagel. Can I say? Can I say? You don't like them toasted. You need to just trust it and just go with it. None of it makes any sense, but it's the best thing you've ever tasted. You see, if you have a Manchester bagel, they're superior to any bagel in the whole of the universe.

29:13Did Liverpool get good bagels? You're not from Manchester, are you, by any chance? But they're chewier. They're crispy on the outside and very chewy. You're not going to get three slices out of a Manchester bagel. No, you're not. They're smaller. You're going more kind of New York-style bagel, yeah? Are we talking? Yeah, well, I mean, because Linda was from New York, so I wouldn't have known what a bagel was. We had a lovely housekeeper called Rose for years and years and years. She'd go, bagel, bagel. Do you remember when? Which is a lot of... London, they say bagel. But also, I think it's just, even people who haven't got the London accent, some Jewish people call it bagel.

29:54Yeah, they say bagel. But Rose was with mum before. Rose was with dad before mum and dad met and when you met mum Rose was like dad's housekeeper You want the Rose story? I want the Rose story, I do East End genius, she was the best I was living on my own in the 60s and I needed someone I can barely believe that I just want to say Occasionally No So I needed someone to kind of help the house and stuff, I was hopeless A woman's touch and a woman's touching so I asked a guy out of our office if he could look around, see if he could find someone and anyway, he came back he said, well this lady called Rose would you like to see her?

30:40so I said, yeah, so I'll have an interview so she came in and she had bright red lips she had a black turban on she was very exotic red hair Red hair So I said oh Is it you that's come about the housekeeping job Yeah alright yeah Rose real Cockney Proper Cockney Cockney girl Spelled G-E-L Anyway yeah so she was great And she loved the kids And was just with us forever When I met mum Yeah Linda I'd had occasional girl friends to the house, I must admit. But I was young, I was carefree. I was, you know. And it was the 60s. It was the 60s. So Rosa kept quiet. But then when Linda came around, she said, I like this one, Paul.

31:39I like that one. She's all right. So that was really the seal of approval, you know. And I think Mum looked in your fridge and saw like a hard rind of cheese and like a... And a half sour bottle of milk. I mean, not only was she a beauty, but did she, the way to your heart was through your stomach. Did she cook for you? What was the first meal that Linda cooked for you? Do you remember? Well, that's going back. I mean, she made a mean scrambled egg, that kind of thing. I love that, you know. But she did say to me, you know, what do you want to eat tonight? I go, oh, anything, anything. She said, no, I'm looking for menu suggestions.

32:22and I didn't I hadn't understood that till then why women and I agree do that you know because that's the thinking about what that helped me out if you like you told us what you would like to eat that was so much easier than me working out but Lenny you know what I love because when I'm cooking for people like if I was cooking for you guys I'd be like well I wouldn't and do you do this you guys would do I would think about you guys and think what can I feed them that they're gonna And I'm not like, I'm cooking this for you. So that's why mum would have been like, what do you want? Because you cook for people to make them happy and please them.

32:59And you just want to see people's faces light up, don't you? That's a great instinct in a cook. Mary's definitely got that. Linda had it. Which is like, you know, it's not work. She actually wants to put a meal on the table where you go, whoa, it's fantastic. You know, I think it's great. Well, that's the ultimate, isn't it? That's the ultimate happiness when you do that. I don't think I'm as kind-hearted as that. I'm so tired. Yeah, she's like, I've been cooking this all day. But yeah, okay, so we've got the bagel and we've got the tomato soup. Now, would we say that's a preemie? Are we going for a main?

33:38Because this isn't going to make sense. Obviously, you wouldn't have it. No, no, no. Really, in real life. Actually, probably I would have that for lunch. Yeah. The soup and sandwich I love for lunch. And then we'd get the margarita with the olives and the nuts. Yeah. Probably salted, roasted cashew nuts you like. Yeah. And then we'd go on for a big Sunday roast with all the trimmings. That'd be good. McCartney vegetarian style with all the gravy and the stuffing. It's funny because I've actually met you before, Paul, quite accidentally. I gatecrashed one of your Christmas dinners. I'm going to put some food on.

34:15Are you starving? Yes, you did. I mean, I didn't gatecrash. Couldn't be too hell. You were invited. I was a plus one because a producer called Paul Epworth was invited. And I was working with him that day, but I was not only working with him, but my friend and producer of my first record, Dave Okumu. You met Paul from Pest Studios as well, Paul Epworth. It was a good one. Oh, you worked with Paul Epworth? Yeah. You worked with Paul. Paul had been invited to your Christmas due. Right. And he was in the studio with me and he was like, listen, I'm really sorry, but I've got to go to Paul McCartney's Christmas dinner.

34:46And he went, I can see whether you can come and you were very sweet and accommodating, you let us come. And how good was the food? So good, tofurky you had. So you had this full like Christmas dinner. Everything was there, everybody was there. Did you get the little party favour? I'm not sure, I think because we were supposed to be writing a song. So we kind of, we came, we ate, we said hello and it was like full of family and friends and it was just such a lovely atmosphere. but yeah it was a full christmas dinner roast yeah yeah it was such a lovely spread more like a sunday roast right i think but like but you can also do it for christmas but i think we definitely have yorkshire puddings yeah and when i was a kid um my mom used to make yorkshire pudding but because it was called yorkshire pudding we had it as a pudding we didn't have it we didn't have it like with the beef and that she always just had it afterwards with something?

35:44With golden syrup so good, that's a good idea have you never had it? No! You also put it with golden syrup on it I mean this is we're talking, you know there's a little bit of working class creeping in here I can actually show you pictures on my phone of me eating that recently and I got one in my hand and I just had a squeezy bottle of it and I just squeezed it on and stuffed it in We used to do it, you know, and it was funny. So we do both now. Years later, you know, you'd meet people and say, well, do you want your extra pudding? They say, yeah, well, do you say that? No, they say, it's with your main meal.

36:18We go, oh, no. But Jesse, you're not looking convinced. No, I'm thinking about how... Do you like golden syrup? I mean, I don't think golden syrup... You are going to love it. I feel like I've been told not to like golden syrup because it's... I don't know. You can't make a flapjack without golden syrup. I'm very up for this, and I think my children would be up for this. Yeah. And I like the versatility that you've offered up. So what we do now is dad... You can do both, you see. You can have... That's what we do now. That's what we do because the kids love it with the gravy and all the steamed veg and the roast.

36:50And then I always, because dad has got me into this and I know he has to have it as dessert. When the Yorkshire puddings come out, I hide them. And Simon is the Yorkshire pudding. He is. My husband Simon has taught us how to make Yorkshire puddings. Because they're hard to do well. Yeah, he's the Yorkshire pudding guy. But I'll nick a portion and hide it away because I'm like, we cannot have it where they've all been eaten and Dad doesn't get his whip at the end with the golden syrup. Thank you, Mary. I'm going to try this. I also feel like, and maybe this is blasphemous, so please tell me if your mother would not have been approved of this.

37:24What? A bit of custard maybe that could be. Oh, yeah, I didn't do what you want. It could be like a, you're looking at me and saying. A bit of what? A custard. A custard on the Yorkshire. No, I wouldn't want that. No, you'd have it quite strong. quite straight. Personally, I think we're getting here that you can do what you want. Revolting. No, I like this. I would find that. Okay, fine. I won't do that for you at my Christmas dinner. Costed. Better costed. No. So we have to have the Yorkshire pudding with loads of red onion homemade gravy. Lovely. I reckon. I get to carve. Carve the roast. We're going to have mum's roast.

37:59Yeah. And you're going to carve it. And what will the, I say, meat, Oh, no. Roast potatoes. So would you even have a kind of pretend meat component? Yeah, we do the Linda McCartney roast. Okay, fine. They're really delicious. We make a couple of them. Dad will be slicing them. Roast potatoes. And we got all the other stuff. Yeah. You know, really. It's like towering. Then the stuffing. Stuffing. Mum taught me how to make the stuffing. It's all like delish. It's like. Cranberry sauce. Sagey. It sounds like your mum was a very generous teacher because, I mean, you've listened to her. My mum never taught me.

38:39She told me to back off when she was doing the best. She told me to back off. That was... Listen, it's working. Get back in the kitchen. What she really meant to say was, thanks, Mum, you are my inspiration. Listen, I was a greedy cow, so I was learning. No, Mum wanted company in the kitchen, and Mum made it that it was the most fun place in the house, So you would be anywhere and you'd smell the food and you'd gravitate to the kitchen and you'd just be chatting and cooking. And that's how we learned to cook. Yeah. They would just watch their mum cook. And she would do some clever little things.

39:16She'd sort of say, well, you know, do you want to sort of cut these onions up? So she'd engage them in. Oh, great. You did the onions. Wow. Well, now do the celery. Dad's a good sous chef, aren't you? You would always help chopping mashed potato. Should we have your mash for this as well? Can we get ready? Because we're doing everything. Dad makes the best mashed potato. Well, I make a sort of decadent mashed potato. But really nicely mashed and whipped. And you use the fork at the end to stop the lumps going in. You won't have any lumps in your mash. It's really fancy when you get it in Claridge's and it's like the pomme de.

39:56And it's really pureed. Like it's silky. It is, but it's just very home. You know, you don't put it through any of those rices. No, I just, you know, boil some potatoes. It's actually on YouTube. When they're perfectly soft, mash them with that thing that's got like a grill on it. Yeah, the mashed potato. It's only used for a masher. It's called a potato masher, probably. Yeah, maybe. Probably. It's science. But, you know, mash it with that. And then, like Mary says, do maybe a fork to get any rogue lumps. And some milk in it. And then butter. Yeah, loads. That's the thing. And then really whip that up.

40:41Great. And if you want to go crazy, very finely chopped onion. Oh, that's a nice idea. Yeah. So there's two things, Dad, on YouTube that I think are the best things that you can Google about you. number one is your mashed potato recipe which you feel just look me up number two when usually if i'm like at the end of the night at a party and i had a couple of drinks i'll be like google paul mccartney eye yoga is and dad has done his he doesn't wear glasses still and when he was in india he learned eye yoga and he's actually filmed it and put it on youtube for people who want to because it's a muscle what is i can you do me a little bit of eye yoga right now absolutely yeah I learned off some, you know, yogi in India.

41:27In the 60s? No, it was even more recent. But anyway, he explained that your eyes are muscles, whereas your ears aren't. So you can't, like, exercise your ears. Yeah. But your eyes, you can. Then you can. So, yeah, so what it is is you head still. You can Google it, yeah. I just want to see what happens with the eyes. Head still. Head still. And then you just look up as far as you come. One, two, three. And then go back to the middle. Then down. One, two, three. And back to the middle. You do three lots of that. It's like ballet. Up and down. Yeah. And then back to the centre and you go to the left.

42:13Two, three. Centre. To the right. Two, three. and you do three lots of that left and three lots of the right. So now you've kind of got like a cross up and down and sideways. Now you do the diagonals. You go up to the top, diagonal, and then down to the bottom. We're all doing it now, by the way, our listeners. We are all doing it. Everyone join in who's listening. We're all together now. Anyone looking in the window would think we're mad. I do it in the park sometimes, walking the dog, and people think I'm really weird. It can look a bit weird, yeah. So then it stops you wearing glasses? He doesn't wear glasses.

42:47Do you wear glasses? I don't wear glasses, but not yet. Have you been doing eye yoga for a while? If my eyes start feeling like I need glasses, I start doing Dad's eye yoga, and it feels like exercising. That's my bad eyesight. Pretty good. I don't know. I know someone, a friend of mine, who was like a film director, and I'd got chatting about his family, and he said, oh, my daughter's just going for glasses, is just going to go and get some specs. And I said, oh, I'll tell you what, before she goes, let me tell you this. So I sort of did a little diagram, wrote it all out. And he took it to her.

43:29And apparently then she didn't need specs for quite a few years. It really improved her eyesight. This is very fascinating. It's pretty good stuff. Even if it doesn't, it actually feels good. Well, it makes sense, though, doesn't it? It makes sense if there are muscles. and so you do that a little bit and i always remember that like the union jack yeah so up down the diagonals and then you go into the middle crossing your eyes looking at your nose looking the end of your nose you do like three one two three three sets of that

44:06and that's the one if you're like in the gym and you're seeing doing that you can look a bit weird and then even weirder then you roll your eyes right around in a circle yeah and you do like that five six then you go the other way five six and then the last thing is you do you look at a distant object so that's like your long vision and then you look at the lines on your hand so you pull focus so that's a good thing you know yeah yeah it makes sense it all makes sense you And I don't know, that's why I don't need glasses when I'm reading a newspaper. I think that's really impressive. It makes sense, you know, it's a good idea.

44:51That's ioga and mashed potatoes, everyone should Google it. So I'd have this right after the mashed potatoes. So you talked about your mum and the orchard pudding and the golden syrup. What is a very memorable meal from your childhood, Paul? Pancakes. Oh, was she good at pancakes? Pancake Tuesday. Did you have it not just Shrove Tuesday? You had it every Tuesday? No, no, no. It was just Shrove Tuesday, but that was so exciting when it finally came around. Were they like crepes? Yeah. But you'd just make piles of them. Can I have another pancake? What was your filling that you chose? Lemon and sugar?

45:27I like sugar, which in those days were white sugar. Nobody knew there was such a thing as brown sugar. But white sugar and then lemon juice. and then roll that up smells good was your mum a good cook? yeah she was a good cook mum sorry just having a chat we're doing a programme here mum I like flowers and salad edible flowers they look so healthy like to eat flowers and the colour looks lovely sorry so your mum used to do what was the meal that your mum used to eat? she would do what I'd call traditional British Yeah, meat and too much. Food, yeah, chops. Yeah. Steak, rarely. You know, beef. Yeah.

46:17Scouse, which is Liverpool. Scouse. Jessica, what? Where have you been? I've really not educated her. No. It's a stew. Scouse is a stew. It's always like it's just on the... I thought it was going to be something about Liverpool. It's like an Irish stew. Oh, OK. It's the same as Scouse. It's like an Irish stew. And then if you don't have the meat in it, they call it blind scouse. I'm sure that's not very PC, but that's what they call it. Don't knock on me, love. Yeah, so she would do all of those things. Did she have much time to cook? Because she was a midwife. She was a nurse, a midwife, sister on a ward.

46:55Yeah. And her mode of transport was a little bicycle, a little bag on the front. It's like called the midwife. Mum's obsessed with it. You know, that's her era. And her name was Mary. And it was Mary. So you're named after. Mary Patricia. And so Let It Be as well is about her. The song Let It Be, yeah. Mother Mary. Oh, yeah. Because I had a dream and I woke up after the dream and she had come to me in the dream. So it was a lovely dream because she died a few years before. You were 14, weren't you? When I was 14, yeah. so she died probably six or seven years before that um but here she was in a dream and it's it's a miracle when someone you've lost is there in the dream and you go wow great to see you you know this is great because all the old feelings come back you know it was pretty emotional yeah but and i was in a bit of a rough state 60s doing too much of this and too much of that and she'd sort of look at me in the room and she said, don't worry son, it's going to be alright it's all going to be alright just let it be Do you want to help yourself?

48:08Yes Do you want me to do a play? Yeah And did you, when you woke up from that dream did you feel like things changed? Do you feel like you calmed down a bit? Yeah, definitely yeah and I thought that was great You wrote a great song It was actually a great thing for her to say you know I mean you work it out it's actually me and my brain saying it in the dream it was her saying it and I thought wow that's really good advice you know just let it be so yeah then I wrote the song she should do didn't she title by Mary but yeah stuff was very traditional and the only one thing I mean I didn't like everything we had because you know typical kids.

49:00I don't like that. I don't like that. The one thing we really wouldn't go near was tongue. Mum, I love you so much. I'm listening to the story. We're having a moment too, Mary. What do you want me to do? Listeners, listeners, this is a little family dispute. It's going on here. I'm sorry, but these women are completely out of control. We'll hand you over now. There you go, Barbara Do you two fight at all? Do your family fight? I feel like you're so polite to each other Yeah, occasionally But we don't think this is fighting, we just think we're disagreeing You tell me to do the food, you sit on your arse and then I do the food and then you're telling me to be quiet We'll discuss this later, thank you I'm sorry about this, listeners I think we'll now take a little piece of music Stop trying to get allies, Mum No, I wasn't Mary was...

49:55Paul McCartney's apologizing to our listeners. You don't realize this happens in every episode. Thank you.

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51:06Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

51:16Where are some of your favorite spots to go in London? You have your place in Sussex, don't you? You love that in New York. That was a beautiful moment. So my wife's from New York, so we eat in New York a lot. But talk about that. I would say the River Cafe in London. Have you been since it's reopened? Yeah, outside. Just went the other night, actually. Oh, lovely. It's the best. It's all outdoors, but it's fun. It's the ingredients are just the best ingredients. And also it's home cooked. I actually went there one morning because I'm obviously obsessed with food. and um i emailed ruthie rogers and she let the chef there and she let me go in one morning and i realized just i love to observe things and i just she let me go in and observe everyone and i think one of the reasons it's probably one of the best london restaurants is everyone comes in so whether you work behind the reception whether you're a waiter or a chef you they all come in in the morning they all prep together oh really and they and then she and the head chef sit down and write the menu each each day um and new so the whole thing also that place in new york you loved abc yeah there's a great place in new york abc v so the kitchen the kitchen abc kitchen it's so good it's great but then next door to it he's made one the chef is like jean pierre or So I'm thinking.

52:42All right. So the food at ABC is great, but then he's made one next door called ABCV. How good is this food, by the way? This is great. Can I just interrupt to say thank you? It's delicious. Thank you for the recipe. Thank your mother, because this is the recipe. No, it's really nice. It's so delicious. And it's perfectly spiced. It's not, because you don't like too spicy, but it's got enough of a kick. Yeah. Thank you. It's delicious. No, thank you for making, I mean, thank you, Mum. Sorry. Thank you, Mum. It's delicious. I love you very much. I appreciate you every single day. You need to appreciate your mum.

53:15I do, I do, I do. The argument has finally subsided. You can add conflict resolution. I'm going to provoke them again in a minute, don't worry. So, Mary, where are some of your favourite spots in London? I love River Cafe as well. I love, a friend of mine has a restaurant which I really love called Pharmacy with an F, F-A-M-E, which is a vegan restaurant in Notting Hill, but also it's got a really great cocktail bar, Lenny's. And actually, you don't know this, on my serves out my cooking show, I did these smoky dogs, which are these homemade, so you can put them in a bun and put all the mustard and mayo.

53:54And they're doing that on May the 17th when everything reopens. They're doing my smoky dogs on the menu. Oh, that's amazing. I've been there a few times doing food tape. But yeah, I love that kind of food because I love food that doesn't feel too righteous. so it's nutritious, but it can still be like this. It's like chilli and rice. And if it's too healthy, I'm just going to want crisps and a chocolate bar afterwards. So this is perfect.

54:25I've got a few more questions for you. I mean, we could carry on, but listen. I don't want to be like bad fish that's overstayed or well, it starts smelling. So we didn't get your pudding for your last supper. Although we don't eat fish, Jessie. Oh, no, sorry, sorry. See life, not see food. So get that, that's getting out of the edit. Have you seen Seaspiracy? No, I need to see that. Yeah, you do and you don't. You maybe just don't eat fish anymore and then you don't have to watch it. Okay, fine. It's up to you. You either have to be tortured and watch it or just say I'm not. I also made your coconut thing.

54:56Yeah, coconut bar. Anyway, sorry. No, but I was going to say, so mum did the coconut chocolate bars for you that are in the cookbook. And then I wanted to know, we didn't get your last, we didn't get the pud for your last supper. Now, I don't know if it is going to be the Yorkshire pudding with the Tate and Lyle, or you're going to go for a different pud. It could be the Yorkshire pudding, and it also could be rice pudding. Ooh. I like rice pudding. No. Why? From a can. I like it in the can. Go on, so do you do fancy pants? I will say, when we were on hitchhiking holidays as kids, that ambrosia creamed rice, that was good.

55:33No, Mum made a baked, which your Aunty Jen taught her. Yeah. well the thing is you know a lot of people think it's like fancy and it gets that skin on the top but no in fact when when Linda started cooking she asked me you know what he likes it like rice pudding so she looked it up in a recipe and uh it wasn't the way I liked it it was fine you know it was like a posh French cookbook that had like egg in it and all these yeah it was actually yeah Do you have a bit of jam on the side? Yeah. But, I mean, so I rang up my Auntie Jin. I said, well, she always just made it. It seemed to be really easy.

56:17So she just took... She was the matriarch of the family. Yeah, Auntie Jin. They called her Control. Just Control? Control. Have you spoken to Control about this? I love that. Anyway, she'd take, you know, like a baking dish kind of thing, like a Pyrex thing. And she'd just sprinkle rice. Short-grain rice. Short-grain rice over the bottom of it. And then she'd put some sugar over that. And then she'd just put like a pint of milk over that and stick it in the oven. Loved it. And, you know, the milk all got... Was Auntie Jen quite important? I mean, I'm sure she was, but when your mum passed away, kind of, you know, she became that.

56:59She was. And Jen and Millie, Auntie Jen and Auntie Millie, yeah. They came round to the house because we were just three boys with my dad and two boys. And, you know, it was desperate times, really. You've never heard your dad cry until something like that happens, you know, and he's in the next room. You hear him cry and you go, oh, God, it's so heart-wrenching. But they used to come around a couple of days a week and so they'd get the great cooking and they'd clean up. Proper feeders. I went and stayed with Millie and Auntie Gin when I was like 16 with my friend Sue. And we went. And in the room, you're like this, Sunny.

57:43They had like the drawers like for all the clothes. But the bottom drawer, she was like, I've left you some snacks. And you pull it open and it was full of crisps and snacks and everything. And then she'd like give you some cash to go down to the chippy at the end of the road. So basically, I think I came home about a stone heavier from that trip. And Uncle Harry, they were a nice couple. He was a husband. And he was very Liverpool, you know. All right, I'll be doing all right. Very thick Liverpool accent he had, you know. He was a builder. But he would, in the evenings, you know, particularly on the day he got paid kind of thing, he'd come home with loads, pocketfuls of sweets and Mars bars and Aeros and crisps and all that.

58:30so us kids just loved it really thank you so much for having us and letting us feed you it's such a pleasure last question to you McCartneys do you have good table manners do you think you've got good table manners I mean look I'm not Mary's poor champagne in her ear I'm licking my fingers you know in the movie Airplane when they're like I have a drinking problem and he says I do that all the time I have to say, I think I have kind of good table manners, except I hate it when I cook for people and they just wait for me. I like people to eat things while they're hot. Just get going. So in that sense, I don't have good table manners because I'd rather start eating things when they're hot than waiting for everyone to sit down.

59:19I think that's the American in you, I think. I like that. And I talk over everybody. Kiefer Sutherland told us that you're supposed to eat when it's hot. Yeah. and not weight I think it's one of those really posh you're supposed to eat what kind of oh you think it is it is aristocratic they just talk in they eat when they sit down do you think you have good table manners I think you do do I have good table manners I think you've done you have been known although you have to eat people I'm known to lick the plate sometimes I might lick the plate if it's good why not get the last I might just take the soup bowl oh absolutely get that Thank you for having us Mum, you need to ask these two what their karaoke song is Do you sing karaoke ever?

1:00:05You know what? Not often, but... If you had to, what would your favourite song be? I think, um... Not a Beatles, you're not allowed to choose one of your own Not allowed to do Beatles, no I think it'd have to be My Way Oh, would it? And now that time has come That one Yeah because you would be drunk singing it that way if you were doing karaoke I think because I can't get up in front of people and sing I would have to do it with people quite drunk with some friends and I probably do we are family or islands in a stream or something like that and so I'd have to have somebody with me would you yeah because the thing is I was really excited at Stella's wedding Stella's wedding they had karaoke and I was like I'm gonna do karaoke for the first time.

1:00:55And then Chrissie Hine got up and sang. Oh, bloody hell. And then Charlene Spiteri got up and sang. And then I did not do any karaoke that night. They should have sat that one out. I'm sorry. But the thing about karaoke is the worse you are, the better it is. So much better. I mean, if you're a good singer, it's like no point. Just go la la la la la. But if you don't, I love the people who are out of tune. That's like, this is good karaoke. Yeah. I went to this amazing charity thing ages ago at Ronnie Scott's and they did like a charity karaoke and Nick Cave did Bootylicious, which was probably one of the best karaoke things I've ever seen in my life.

1:01:34He couldn't slow it down either, could he? Oh, it was good. Oh, my God. It was good. Oh, my God. I can imagine how fantastic that was. Bootylicious has never sounded so profound. Thank you for having us. Thank you for letting us be in your lovely offices, share a meal with you. I'm going to have one, definitely. so the book is out on the 24th of June I think yes so we've got Meat Free Mondays Linda McCartney Foods we've got the new plant based milks we've got the new Linda McCartney family cooking cookbook and we've got my cooking show Mary McCartney serves it up on Discovery Plus we've covered all the bases there and McCartney 3 out now and also the remix kind of reimagined yeah the reimagined ones that's Dominic Fike oh yeah Dominic Fike's pretty good isn't it yeah I mean yeah all of it your busy family I thought we were quite busy but yeah I think the McCartneys have just trumped us yeah thanks for having us thank you yeah really thanks for cooking mum

1:02:50Sir Paul McCartney is touring he's quite remarkable isn't he South America and the UK tour is happening later this year including two nights at the O2 in December and Mary is still doing loads of cooking and photography and directing and they're just brilliant shout out to Sir Paul McCartney the Sandwich King and Mary McCartney who is going to do a margarita night for Lenny we're still waiting Mary we do love you thanks for listening and we'll be back next week with more Second Helpings.

1:03:37If you're a smoker or vaper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out Zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.