Tom Parker-Bowles and Henry Jeffreys

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2:06Hello and welcome to Table Manners I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here at my house and it is bedtime for my children and so they're doing a silent dance trying to stay up but it's time for bed kids I sound a bit snotty Yep So I really hope And you shared it out You weren't ungenerous for the cold. I don't, maybe you gave me your cold. Darling, I couldn't have given you the cold because you've had it longer than me. Hmm, hmm. Anyway, we have Tom Parker Bowles, who is a food critic and food writer, and Henry Jeffries, who is a wine critic and wine expert, who have joined forces to do a podcast which is all about wine and history.

2:54It's called Intoxicating History. So on its first season, which one did you listen to, Mum? The most recent one about moving on to Blue Nun and Black Tower, which I remember. I didn't get far enough in, maybe. Did they mention Huron-Dale? I don't know. Because that was the table one. It's interesting because I was watching the Jane Austen BBC TV series and that was set, when was Jane Austen? Was it the 18th century? and they were drinking wine at the table then so the aristocrats always drank wine it was just people like us that didn't yeah but they always drank wine it's just people like us that didn't we drank beer or spirits i really enjoyed the episode which was about world war ii and hitler's stash of excellent wines and the fact that actually france was really lucky with being quite spared in certain regions um for wine because of the wine yeah but also there was one about portugal and port it's really interesting they are so knowledgeable yeah i thought i was doing a phd in wine yeah it's maybe that can be my next career yeah i am in charge of cooking and i'm slightly worried to be honest because he's a food critic and writer and i know we've had jay rain are on and i know we've had grace dent but i feel like i've done recipes that you were going to do and i was like don't worry i'll cook it and i'm just slightly worried that it's a lot these kids shush and it's a lot of information on the plate too much information i think it's going to be lovely and i bet they love a home-cooked meal and it smells gorgeous the the lamb it does smell gorgeous it's been slow roasting for ages when's it coming out because You're going to have to let it stand.

4:47Yes, it's going to come out. Actually, I've got a timer and it's coming out in like 15 minutes. I've done it with, you wanted to do potato and celeriac gratin. Only because I had a celeriac in the fridge. So I told you what I was doing. Oh, but I did see a fabulous celeriac steak recipe where you do it and you griddle it and then you put maple syrup on the top. Look gorgeous on the Great British Menu. you? Well I've done a potato and sleriac gratin that I made yesterday and then I am just heating up and I've added some cheese on the top. The lamb is slow cooked it's an Ottolenghi guardian recipe it's you make this paste it's it's it's really.

5:28Is this the one with figs and pistachio? Yeah. Oh it's gorgeous. It's but you do this paste that you put on top of a shoulder of lamb and the paste is dill parsley loads of garlic one onion loads of ginger turmeric cinnamon ground coriander and you make this paste in the food processor and you like slap it onto the top so it's been marinating in that for like overnight and then what you do is you cook it slowly in the oven I didn't actually have a good a big enough cast iron cruise the crusade that It was big enough for it, so I've just had to use foil. I'm sure it would have been better with proper iron.

6:05Double foil's the same. Anyway, it's with onions and figs and chicken stock and... Pistachios? The pistachios go on later. Okay. It smells amazing. We made it for Tom Daly. Oh, have you already made this one? Oh. He loved it. He had about eight helpings. I think it's why he got a medal. Well, I've done that. with the potato and salariac gratin which makes no sense to me then i was it's perfect i was in the bath and i was scrolling and i loved julius roberts and his recipes and i had cavallonero and he had this like cavallonero where you put all of it stems and all into water make it tender with three cloves of garlic and then you just zhuzh it up with loads of olive oil and anchovies and some parmesan.

6:56So there isn't any acid in it. There's no lemon in it. But I was going to do that with some tender stem broccoli. But now I'm slightly worried. Delicious. No, it isn't rough. It'll be delicious. But anyway, I'm, yeah, there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on on the plate. Yeah, I'm a bit worried about that. But yeah, that's what we're having. What have you done for Pud? I've made a double baked chocolate and miso cake. so you put half the batter in it's almost like a chocolate mousse so it's got seven eggs in you put half the batter in cook it for 35 minutes take it out cold and then you put the other rest on top so the top's gooey and then you serve it i'm serving i bought some raspberries some strawberries some blueberries and creme fraiche and cream and ice cream tom parker bowls and Henry Jeffries coming up on Table Moms.

7:58Cheers. Nice to meet you. Thank you for having us on. We're so happy to have you. It really is. This is like the original and the best. We're just interneters. You know what? I remembered somebody talking about you on this podcast, Tom. Oh, really? Grace Dent says you are one of the funnest people to go out with. And in fact, I think she had a hangover when she did our podcast. Because she'd been out with you the day before. Well, I do. I love Grace, dear. I think you've been in Noble Rot. Yes, that all ends badly. But actually, Grace doesn't drink anymore. Is that after your night out? No, Grace always, you know, kept herself together as ever elegant and lovely and beautiful and the rest of it.

8:36And I just get a sort of shit face. But I don't, I'm trying not to do that now. But she's so cool, Grace. She's great. She showed me her like chignon hair that she was getting. I'm in MasterChef now and she said my feet hurt because I'm wearing heels, I tried to wear flats but I just couldn't and I was like finally some glamour to MasterChef there we go, I love it Why couldn't she wear? Because she's a diva and she's fabulous And also you have to do that walk in slow motion you know what it's like, obviously we walk all day that's pretty normal, but then you've got a camera on you saying like do it again we're more sort of try harder at the walking more seriously, then you start being self conscious about walking so you sit in slow motion with grace or with william or whoever it is very difficult walking on camera so you're on together because you have a new podcast which is really quite unique and amazing and fab informative and i feel like i've learned a lot about hitler's stash and about blue nun and my mum wanted black tower oh we should have some blue nun shouldn't we I thought Black Tower was red wine.

9:43I just remember the bottle because it was in that big red bottle. But I also started drinking wine here on Dale. That was another one of those old wars. It was one of those wines that ordinary people bought and you had Blue Nun or Black Tower if it was a special event. But I can remember only drinking Sauternes at Christmas and it was a sweet wine. It wasn't with our dessert. My aunt used to bring it along to have with our dinner. I remember going to some restaurant. It was that one near Piccadilly Circus, that kind of French sort of one. Down the Colbert. Yeah, down the steps. And there was a couple having steak with a bottle of Sauternes, and they just looked so happy.

10:20And I just thought, you know, if you want to drink sweet wine with steak, then, you know, go for it. I mean, that's the thing. People say, you've got to drink this without, I can care less. Really? You just, you know, we talked on the Bonne one about how, you know, you knew Bonne, if someone was a baddie, because they, you know, they didn't know what claret was, or they chose the white wine with the roast beef or the red with the fish. But it doesn't make any difference nowadays, does it? I mean, some things work better, I suppose. I think it's something that's made up by restaurants to sell you expensive wine.

10:47So they just sort of go, right, you've ordered the food, now you need, or the tasting menu, and then a wine with each course. And it's like, oh, come on, you don't need a wine with each course. You know, you just order a bottle of Chardonnay or Beaujolais. Long Clume, darling. I've done that. I've been to Long Clume. I did the wine with each course. I almost fell asleep. I had the worst hangover of my life. On my 40th birthday. On my 40th. And did you stay at the place? We stayed at a place, I say walk, we staggered back and up a place. It wasn't above the restaurant, it was about one, there are blocks in Cartmall, no, but you know what I mean, a little bit away, yeah, it was really nice.

11:25I can't remember it. Did you have the Simon Rogan fry-up the next day? Yes. I couldn't even eat it, I was that hungover. they were looking at me and they're like and i was like i couldn't speak i was so hung over so screw you simon rogan how dare you good food ruin my thought the food is wonderful but i would have enjoyed the food more without a glass of wine by the end of it and this is something i never do i wasn't finishing my glass of wine so the waiter would come over go i've got this little austrian you know recently i found in my staff that is the perfect thing with this i'd be like i'll take it But do you feel bossed about when you have a tasting menu with wine?

12:01Yeah, a little bit. I find, and this is kind of, even though my job is in wine, I find sommeliers always kind of give me the fear and I always feel like they're judging you. Do you even hear that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you feel like they're judging you? Judging everyone, but yeah, mainly me. For ordering the wrong thing. You're a wine critic. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm an enthusiastic drinker. Okay, okay. But they come along with their chain and their little tea caddy spoon. Well, that's what they used to wear. They used to wear a chain. With that sort of sea shelly thingy. A sea shelly type spoon.

12:35To taste the wine. Oh, they don't do that anymore. Before they served it to you. I wish they'd do that. They used to have it on a big chain. On a big, long chain. But that was the point. When we first started going, when I first started writing about food, and I went to my ex-wife's restaurants that she called clink-clink restaurants, because you'd walk in beside her, it'd be like a mausoleum, and then they look down, you sit down and then the whinness would appear that thick. And you know what you're going to do, especially when you're looking for like, I'm going to get a cheap one, but I'm going to take ages looking through to pretend that I'm looking around and probably the second cheapest, actually, if that's okay, as long as you could pronounce it.

13:10You always do the second cheapest, don't you? So you don't look too mean, but yeah. I've just been in Los Angeles and everything starts, like an Uber starts at 64. Same as New York. Everything. thing is it's 40 dollars now to get from uptown to downtown but also a glass of wine is around 30 40 dollars i mean it's mad america used to be cheap no it's not cheap when i first went to la 2009 i remember thinking this is really cheap you know this is brilliant i think i'm going to move to la it's brilliant and now i hear these stories and i just i think they just laugh so don't people don't drink wine as much in the states they drink cocktails no it's much more la is much more of a cocktail place.

13:50They don't drink at lunch. No, not at all. Do you always drink at lunch? Not every day. Christ, every day I'd know I'd be dead if that happened. But no, a long lunch is one of the great pleasures of life. Because lunch has possibilities. It has, you know, dinner, it finishes. Oh, it's 11 o 'clock, I'll get back for the dog or the children, whatever. Lunch, you know, shall we roll into dinner? Shall we carry on here? You know, it is full, Fergus Henson said that, you know, it's just full of romance. I love that. A long lunch. Speaking of romance, how did you two get to know each other? Candle at dinner, grind it.

14:23No, it wasn't grind it. No, we were put together, weren't we? Yeah, yeah. We'd actually, we'd met a few times before. And in fact, I'd met Tom a long time ago when I worked in PR and you were doing Food Channel with Matthew Ford. Yes. And I was working with an author who wrote a book about Italian wine, Italian food. And I just remember how charming and unstarry you were. I just assumed that you'd be a bit of a wanker. Just being quite well known. And you were so charming. and you're going to talk to me. And when you work in PR, people don't talk to you. People just assume you're an idiot. But anyway, I was impressed with Tom 20 years ago.

14:57And then we had a producer who made a show called The Wine Show. And she's also worked with Heston Blumenthal. A great TV producer, Mel. Called Mel. Melanie Jappy. And she'd got in touch with me and said, I really like your book on kind of booze history. I think it would make a great podcast. We need to find the right person to do it with. That's why there's someone who knows nothing about food. Yeah. You know, you like it. Someone who's a professional, someone who could kind of fill in the gas. Professional drinker. A professional media. A gob shy person. What is this? This is posh clientele.

15:32I was thinking this is actually really fancy. I found it in the cupboard. Can we call it a cellar when it's got a hoover in there? My cellar has a hoover in, so yes. Yeah, okay, cool. Yeah, so you went through and I never know what's good or what I'm meant to do. so it's really helpful having Henry here. In fact, we could just go through my whole week. So what are we drinking now? So this is Chianti. I love Chianti. So this would be mainly from Tuscany, Italy. Sangiovese is the grape. And this is one of the best producers. So this is actually, you know, and 2018. I don't know who fucking is. 2018, so seven years old, which is just the perfect age to drink it at.

16:10Are you shitting me, Henry? No, no, not at all. No, so this is everything is... I should be going through my... You're a sommelier. My cellar and checking out all the 2018 ones. Only if they're good ones. So let's talk about your podcast a bit more. I'm going to be like faffing with the dinner. It smells amazing. I'm a bit worried, Tom. We know that you're a food critic. Are you going to critique us? There's a lot going on on the plate. No, but there's a lot going on on the plate and I acknowledge that. I'm an eater. He's our third food critic, isn't he? Jay Rayner. Jay Rayner. They don't bite.

16:45We don't bite. No, Jay was really... You should get Jarls on. No, he bites. I'm terrified of him. He's the nicest man in the world. Is he? Really? Yeah, he's the funniest, nicest. I love him dearly. I loved his dad. Well, on that note, I'm just going to sort out the dinner, but you please explain. We want to hear about the podcast. Oh, yes. Well, I mean, we just thought that doing something in history, but with drink, would be funny, and there's so much kind of drink history out there, like the story of port and, you know, sherry and rum and, you know, all these drinks have got such great histories behind them.

17:19And then you have something like kind of Blue Nun or something that kind of tells the story. Well, I listened to this week's one, Blue Nun. And that's, you know, that's kind of recent history. But I don't know, it seems so long ago, doesn't it, that people were drinking Blue Nun. When did rosé start? Well, a lot of wine used to be rosé. So they used to just throw in like the white and the red grapes and just ferment them together and you'd get something that was like... Because it's just the grape skin that coloured it. Just a little bit of the skin and you get something that the French call like vin gris, which is like grey wine.

17:49Or I can't pronounce it, but they call it partridge eye in French. So it's like the colour of a partridge eye. Perdue. I only know that from Adam Partridge. Because when he goes to France, do you remember when he says it's a partridge in Paris and he's Perdue? Oh, and he's got his driving gloves and his flat cap. So Rosé has been around for, you know, ever since people have been making wine. But it's only in recent years that people have made this ultra pale sort of whispering angel. And that all comes down to technology. So it's picking the grapes early so they don't have a lot of colour. Pressing them very, very gently so you get the flavour of the red grapes.

18:26Only a tiny, tiny bit of the colour. And then using a special yeast to get that strawberry peachy kind of thing. And then you age it on the leaves which are the dead yeast cells. and that gives it the creamy texture. So kind of rosé in its modern form is very formulaic. It's a technology wine. So that's what I like, technology wine. No, no, no, no, it's a great modern invention. It's like champagne. Champagne is a sort of technology wine, but 19th century technology. Oh, it's so clever. And modern rosé is a 21st century. Because Provence rosé used to be dark. Yeah. If you see like Key Floyd programmes and stuff, he'll be there in the 90s.

19:03Would it be heavier? It would be richer, heavier. I mean, it wouldn't have been as dark as that, but it would have been a kind of bright pink. You see, on my wine course, they told me you had to look at it as if it should be the colour of onion skins, as pale as that. Where do you stand on these wines that my daughter likes, the orange wines? This is not really... Do you know, I must... But it's your sister. Wrap this. I'm a bit of an old fuddy-duddy, and I just think white grapes, you don't want the tannin. Because basically an orange wine is a white wine made like a red wine. So you get the white grapes and you get the skins, you get the colour.

19:39And sometimes a little bit is quite nice, but often it's just like, I don't want that. Also, you taste it and you say, frightfully sorry, I think the wine's off. And they're like, no, it's the ultimate expression of the barn. All that pet gnat stuff. Well, it tastes... What's that? It's like wine that's got a fizz in it, which tastes to me as if it's gone wrong. It's where they finish the fermentation. But do you get that one on the Vina Verde, which I really like? Yeah, slightly, because Vita Verde is very, very slightly fizzy. This is actually quite fizzy. It's where they finish the fermentation in the bottle.

20:11And it can be quite nice, but often you get this kind of, it goes slightly wrong and you get all this sludge and like it's slightly fizzy. Definitely. And you've paid 30 quid for it and it's through some organic vineyard in Kent. And it's a bit like, you pour it out and you've just got loads of sludge and you're a bit like, is that 30 quid? Yeah. And you're just a bit kind of, and you feel sort of slightly cheated. Yeah. I mean, that's Pet Nat. And what about, So down your way, is that where they make that delicious, sparkling British wine? No Nish? Nightingham. Yeah, that's in South States. Oh, I love that.

20:43It's very nice, yeah. It's delicious. I think that's as delicious as champagne. I think English, I mean, I know very well, but you know, it's one of the books. How do you not know a lot about it when you're in a podcast? Because I'm learning about it, but Henry's book about the rise of English wines is well worth a read. I'm going to buy it. It's very good. But wasn't it Nightingham were one of the originals? They were sort of pioneers or not? Yeah, they were an American couple. Oh, were they? Yeah, and they moved to England in the 80s. And they kind of thought, we're going to make champagne-style wine.

21:13And they went to the Ministry of Agriculture and they said, you'd be better off planting apples. He died recently, Stuart Moss. He said, you know, we didn't move 5 ,000 miles to plant apples. And they realised that the South Downs, the soil, the climate, it was perfect for making sparkling wine. And everyone thought they were nuts. and they had the money to do it properly. So they got in French consultants and they planted French grapes and they got French bottles and they copied the champagne technique. And the very first vintage, 92 Blanc de Blanc, won all these awards. Like Jancis Robinson tried it and thought it was champagne.

21:50The Neuil de French is a fantastic thing. That's fabulous, yeah. Better than beating them up. And it was the first time that the Queen had stopped a non-champagne ever. So that was stopped by the Royal Fund. The Queen had it. Yeah, the Queen had served it at royal banquets. And they've got a warrant, haven't they? They've got everyone. Yeah. Does that mean they get a little stamp on it? I don't know if they still do have a warrant. Oh, they're not? Because, yeah, the warrant, you know, I certainly know with the King now that a lot of the English winemakers have a warrant because when it's this quality now, you know, you're not going to get whatever you're doing, having your dinners and showing off English produce to the world.

22:25You want to show off the wine as well. So it's amazing to think in 30 years, probably, But they did it with the first vintage as well. So you sort of... So they got it right. They got it right the first time. And I tried that first vintage like 30 years later. And it was like, this is incredible. She needs more wine. So don't we all. Don't we all. Yeah, it's not a dry house here. So does your mum cook for you still? Not so much anymore. She knows everyone always forgets. She's busy. She's busy, but she was bringing up two children in the 70s and 80s in Wiltshire. You know, it wasn't that my dad would cook and he was, you know, he was out the weekends.

23:00She was, you know, everyone said, oh, you make it up. It's, you know, it's totally untrue. She was a good cook. But she wasn't a recipe follower. Get a chicken, put a lemon up its arse, you know, put butter all over it, put it in the agar. That's dinner, baby take time. We didn't have a choice growing up. We didn't say, oh, my kids, oh, we're down, feeling like that. Can we have that? No, that was it. You had lunch or dinner and that was it. Yeah. But, you know, scrambled eggs and salads. Yeah, she was a really good cook. But she still does scrambled eggs. She still does scrambled eggs. Very scobey.

23:28Just start helping yourself. It's the most awkward situation because you're just basically going to... If you pass a plate, I will gratin it. All right, then. Not too much. Okay. Cheers, guys. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, cheers. Such a lovely... Cheers. You know what? It's kind of a cheat, isn't it? You cook it... No, this is Yotam Otolenghi in all his glory, but you cook lamb for long enough, but it's... It just looks after itself because it's all that fat, you know. You know that moment with lamb? Everyone's coming for it, everyone's drinking a bit, and you check it and you think, oh, shit.

23:59it's not going to happen. Hold the faith. At a certain point it was suddenly discovered. This is such a good recipe. What's the last meal that you both cooked? Wait, you Henry. Do you cook, Henry? I do. I'm quite keen, but in a sort of very basic way. So the last thing I did was roast beef. On Sunday? On Sunday. I just did a piece of top side, roast it very, very quickly in the oven, some potatoes. My wife is in charge of Yorkshire puddings because I've just never managed to get into it. Me neither. Your American wife is in charge of Yorkshire puddings. That's always the way. What's so funny about our relationship is we've kind of, like, switched.

24:37So all the dishes that she taught me, I now cook. And all the dishes that I taught her, or that are kind of traditionally English, she has taken on. So her Yorkshire... Her marmalade is... I'm going to say marmalade. The best marmalade I've ever had. What's a memorable dish from both of your childhoods? Mine has to be a Wiener schnitzel, because my grandmother on my mother's side was from Austria, and she used to cook a mean schnitzel, and that was always like a family treat. So even after she died, it was always like the treat dish, my birthday, that kind of stuff. And was it veal or chicken?

25:14Well, my mother wouldn't do veal, because of veal calves and stuff. So she used to do it pork, which is quite a good substitute. But my grandmother was always like old school. So it would always be mashed potato, a kind of cucumber salad, and like a really thin, like, beaten piece of veal. And she actually generally... I mean, she wasn't a great cook, apart from the schnitzels. And then she just sort of... Something came over her. Her Austrian heritage welled up, and she just... And they were huge and, like, beautifully crisp. That is so good, by the way. It's really cute. It's such a good recipe.

25:53Also, it's proper food. Yeah, I mean, look, Yotam, I love you. You are a bit faffy, but you do deliver. You're amazing. There's that recipe, pommes boulangères, where you put those, basically, with onions, and you put the lamb on top and cook it. And it was like butcher's lamb. The problem is, I love fat, but it is quite fatty. So you have to basically skim it before you serve it to heaven. Otherwise, you've got that much lamb fat. I think that lamb fat, I tried to skim some before that. That gratin is delicious. Well, it looks like my kids are having it for dinner tomorrow. So, you know. Did your kids sit upstairs when they were doing this?

26:25Yeah. Did you do a school night? My husband's putting them to bed, so. So they've had tea and everything and just go upstairs? Had tea. They're obsessed with dumplings, gyozas, which is like the greatest gift that wasn't around when we were younger. I didn't know what, when we were growing up in the country, basically Angel Delight, Ice Magic. Ice Magic, right. Ice Magic, right. When they ski down, he skis down the ice cream thing, the ice magic follows him, then it goes crisp. Do they still do it? Yes. Yeah. Who knows what, really? Yes. But our kids, my kids, they have this thing where, like, where do you want to go for lunch today?

26:55Oh, can we have Thai? Oh, no, can we go to Dim Sum? Oh, no, no. It's like growing up in Wiltshire in the 70s and 80s, you did not go out to eat. You went to London with my granny, who'd take us to nice Italian restaurants, but in the country, Wimpy... Not even pubs? Wimpy and Swindon, on someone's birthday, you went to go see Superman 3, and then went to Wimpy. I used to love the Wimpy and the bun. I loved it, Bender and a Bun. Bender and a Bun. A Bender and a Bun. Is that the sausage? Well, they cut it slightly so it's bent. And also, I'm obsessed with frankfurters of every kind, you know, verse frankfurters.

27:30But Wimpy, you've got badges. And he went to Venice and he went to New York. Mr Wimpy went his little... The smell was different. It was a nicer, more wholesome smell than McDonald's. It was table service. Yeah. Do you have any good Kent spots that you'll go for local beats? There's a wonderful... The sportsman. You know, I do go to the sportsman. And actually, the chap who runs it, Stephen Harris, is, I wouldn't quite say a friend, but we're quite friends. He was sober for his time as well. He was doing this 20 years ago. But the great thing about the sportsman is they do all this incredible local produce and the menu, I mean it is quite expensive, I think it's worth every penny but the wine list is just the ordinary pub, Sheppard Neem wine list.

28:07So you can get a bottle of Pickpool,£27 pint of bitter,£5 so you could say you spend all your money on the food and then you just have like, you know, this is like It's the opposite of a wine with each course. You just have a pint or something. In the Louvre, it used to have a condom machine with French tickers. It was that proper Bob. They were the best condoms in Kenya. You'd always go as kids like that, put a quid in, put a quid in. But it was a pop to the point where it was, I don't know about the women's, but the men was freezing cold. The main bog wouldn't have a Louvre seat. The urinal would be, you know, it was a pop.

28:43Is it still like that? No, it's not. The news are a bit smarter, but it's still a pub when it comes to drinking. So they don't have like a sommelier. They don't have like an 80-page wine list. It's just kind of quite ordinary but good quality wine here. There's an amazing pub. Yeah, and then the food is you pay every penny for the food. And the food is, and I know I hate fancy food, but the food at the sports booth is excellent. And if we have a birthday or an anniversary, we always get that. So speaking of you, so you don't like fancy food. I don't know whether you particularly like fancy food.

29:15You probably have to deal with it a bit. I get into shit when I say that I hate taste. The tyranny of the tasty men. It means you get some big chefs who really doesn't understand. I respect chefs. I respect Simon Rogan, Sat Baines, Heston. You know, all the greats. But when it comes down to I want to eat Jeremy Lee's food or Yotam's food, I want to go and have... I'm obsessed with Thai and Mexican. Are you? There's very bad Thai food in this country because there's not enough Thai people. Have you gone to Anglo-Thai? No, go to Cher Thai in Clapham. What? Oh my God, it's the best. I want it blowing my head off.

29:49I love it. So it's her favourite place. So I go to Jit Lada every time when I go to LA. Anthony Bourdain's favourite. And that's what I want. I want it to, the larb, the chicken larb. I want the soup to be so hot that your tongue becomes a throbbing mass of gristle. I know that. And you can't even see. And then you come out afterwards. It's like, ah. And I go every two years with a guy called David Thompson, who for me is the great, he's Australian, but he's he's worked he's he did naam in london he did dali street thai um in sydney but he was the the first i suppose westerner to take thai food he's married to a thai guy speaks fluent thai so we go once every two years up to the northeast or down to the muslim south or and eat and literally it's just i need your recommendations i see that you talk about samsar you well you it's fab i love samsar but there's a place near me i'm west london is my core and it's there's a place two of the greatest thai restaurants a tiny little cafe says thai 101 cafe in hammersmith that does isan cooking which is more sort of jungly and then a bit of southern as well which is much hotter but it has coconut milk to calm it and they do the fish cut curries if you ask for them and it is unbelievable and you find this tiny cafe half the size of this with two bottles of wine and it is the best thai food you know you can't so is that your favorite cuisine or mexican because for me Mexican food is as great as Chinese or Indian or French.

31:14But it was clearly like hot. No, because they use chillies in every different way from flavour to heat, you know, and you don't, a Thai proper Thai lunch or dinner wouldn't just have searing hot larves and curries. It would have a bland omelette, it'd have a bland soup. It's all about balance, not just the sweet, sour, sharp and hot, but everything else. It's all the rice and the bland soup. Then you have the really hot thing and you eat a bit more rice. and same in Mexico, you get this amazing... So we're not that close to Mexico. No, and we don't have a lot of Mexicans here. That's the problem.

31:48I hate to talk to my wife again, but she's very, very good at doing Mexican food. Is she? Yeah, California's a great... Wonderful Mexicans, you know, California and Texas knit. When she's feeling really homesick, she cooks, like, carnitas. So, like a shoulder core, slow cooker, like chipotle, all that kind of stuff. and then like, you know, proper corn tortillas and guacamole with mango in, which is her kind of like special thing. And then she does mango and lots of lime. So when she's feeling sad, it's like, because she misses the kind of heat of California and Mexico. It does it so well. What's the pasteur?

32:25What goes in that? Pasteur is basically, I mean, you know this, but it came to Mexico City with the Lebanese. So it was a shrama, but of course because obviously in Lebanon you wouldn't have pork but of course the Mexicans love pork so it would turn from lamb into pork because I think Mexico City has the biggest emigrant Lebanese population in the world I think so of course they would adapt like all foods adapted so you'd have your al pastor sliced from pork with a different sort of natto base like pork eating shawarma but that's odd though if it's from Lebanon because they're a Muslim country Of course, but the Mexicans weren't the pork.

33:04But also, they're Christians as well. I mean, like 50 % of them. Yeah, they're Christians. Colty Christians and, yeah, it was... The Maronites. Yeah, the Maronites. OK, whilst Mum sorts out dessert, I'm going to... It's a twice-baked chocolate and miso cake. This looks very nice. I don't know what it's like. This is very good. It looks lovely, Mum. Miso gives you that lovely sort of... I hope. Wow. Do you want creme fraiche or ice cream or... What's that? I'm going to have cream fresh, actually. Thank you.

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35:45Tom, yeah, a memorable childhood dish from your growing up. I suppose it would be a bang on about so much, but it is my mom's roast chicken. It's that thing that she would never give you a recipe. How do you cook it? Well, you just cook it. And then she'd never make gravy, but she'd cut off that fatty bit, you know, the bit that hangs over, and put it on the top. And then she'd pour all the juices over your chicken, you know, and it'd be a baked potato, and that was it. And it was just, the other thing was fish and chips. From a shop? I wouldn't eat fish and chips. The fat fries. Remember when we were kids?

36:23when I was a kid. Imagine the Queen with a frying hat on. In those days, everyone had a chip pan. And they were on telly. In the 70s and 80s, those information videos about don't swim in reservoirs, don't climb up pylons. Terrifying. The frisbee in the pylon. And death would come along. There's a whole thing on Instagram about scary 70s TV stuff. But yeah, I think it was the chip pan would always cash fire wouldn't it it was this thing so we had one of those we i think my mom still has it at her house one of those chip pan fire things that hang by the cooker and you chuck it over do you remember those you pull them out and it's still it's like when did you last cook chips in a pan it's still there hanging there and you pull it out and you cover but you used to keep your oil forever yeah and and the dripping as well but the fish and chip shop was in caution which is our local town so we It was a video shop, forward video.

37:20She told them I wasn't allowed to get 18s, but I'd be like, so I get Lethal Weapon and the Delta Force and blood-sucking freaks. I spit on your grave, whatever it was, you know. And then... A classic film. It was just pre the video recordings act, so they weren't rated. But yes, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, that sort of thing. But she would know all this stuff. And then you get fish and chips and have a video and it's just like, this is the life. And a Coke. Last Supper. You're going on a desert island. You're not going to be murdered. So I ask this, I do a thing, ask people what their last supper would be, and the usual thing...

37:55It's the most annoying question in the world, by the way. No, I love it, because the usual thing is a roast, a curry. Yeah, but I love it, because it is an interesting... So we can have whatever we want. Start a main pudding. Pud, drink of choice. Are you going to go for three different wines, Henry? I'll let Tom go first, because I have to... I'll start, and it's very un-piece, he says, but caviar. Oh, really? Tons of caviar, yeah. as much as I could eat if someone else was playing. Straight out, full, until... Because even if it costs two quid, I'd love it. Champagne with that? I don't really like champagne.

38:29And how do you do it? On a piece of toast? Blinny or potato? I wouldn't dream of any onion or egg. Yeah, baked potato, small baked potato. Bake it, scoop out the middle, mix it with sour cream and butter, put it back in, hot baked potato, and a wodge of cold caviar on top. that is as good as it gets and then as a main course I should say roast chicken or a Big Mac no it wouldn't be a Big Mac do you still think the Big Mac is still good when was your last Big Mac I haven't eaten one for a while my son always says I'm going to eat the Mega Mac whether they call it now the Maxi Mac just yeah but the Big Mac yeah occasionally if I'm going to McDonald's with the kids the cheeseburger is about as perfect a creation as you could ever have anywhere on earth I love it I hate Burger King I have no time for burgers I can do a zinger at KFC but I can't go KFC.

39:18Have you seen the double zinger at the moment? Yeah. The kids always say, should we go and try it? Yeah, go on then. Nando's I have a lot of time for. Lando's. Extra hot chicken wrap. Don't you think McDonald's tastes like someone's chewed the hamburger and then put it back together again? It just tastes like McDonald's. It just tastes like McDonald's. It's not my cup of tea. It's not a burger, it's McDonald's. I hate the smell of the chips. I love the smell. The chips are the best. So, you know what? Jackson Boxer just put up on his Instagram, he's been trying to master his burger and it did look quite delicious and I may have to schlep to West London for this burger.

39:50And I went to Dove. It's a really good restaurant. Yeah? He does deep-fried lasagna. He gets lasagna. That's crazy. Is that even illegal? You only get a bit that big. You know, you can't beat a Big Mac. You can. Do you like Burger King? No. No, a few. Don't like... I was just going to say, we'd have an issue. I do like burgers, but I don't like fast-food burgers. You know what, though? What I think is a really good burger sauce, the M &S burger sauce. Oh, yeah. But that's basically an ersatz, Macca's one, really, isn't it? Is it? It's like the McDonald's. It's so good. They used to sell, they used to sell, Australia used to work there for a bit and they sold, McDonald's sold those McDonald's Big Mac sauce you could buy in a big...

40:29Did you work in McDonald's when you left school? Can you imagine? I wouldn't have made it. No, I wasn't. As I said, when I left school I went and put my CV into a film PR company because I love films. You didn't go to uni? And he looked and I went to uni and he said, what the fuck are you doing here? He said, it means nothing, your degree. It wasn't a very good degree, but yeah. It was Oxbridge, wasn't it? Yeah, it was Oxbridge. What did you do? English. His English is really good. You surely did history, Henry. I did English and Classics at Leeds. Oh, wow. So are you going to do intoxicating history?

41:01Are you going to kind of go into the Romans? Are you going to kind of go? Yeah, we got the Romans. I was just brought with Pisces. Pisces, I think you. I mean, the Romans are so... Because they were the ultimate wine snobs. They were, you know, they were like, you know, Tramalchio's feast. Yes. And he's this kind of like nouveau riche. And he serves different wine to different people at the feast, depending on how, you know, close you are to the top table. Oh, my God, that sounds brilliant. And they were always, you know, and then you'd have the more beautiful serving boy or girl was your status.

41:33You'd have the best wine, the best serving boy. At the bottom of the table, you'd get the cramped wine and you'd get the, you know, not so beautiful serving boy. So it was all about status. So it's incredibly fertile. It's like Fashion Week. That's exactly it. It was like London Fashion Week, but in Rome. The Greeks were good with wine. Greeks, again, it was... Because the Greeks divided the whole world into basically the Greeks and the people who didn't drink wine. So they were the barbarians. I'm going back to the Last Supper because poor Alice is going to have a meal of it with the edit. Are we saying roast chicken or Big Mac?

42:09We're saying neither. So we're going to go from caviar to start with. Main course would be, oh God, yeah, it's going to be roast chicken, sorry. Main course would be roast chicken, lemon up his arse, lots of butter, crisp, with a baked potato and you put all the pan, no, I say, as my mother said, just the stuff. Bait rather than roast? So your mum did baked potatoes instead of roasties? Yeah, because it was easier. She knew that. If it was Sunday lunch. I prefer a baked potato, to be honest. A good baked potato. You could just throw it in with the chicken. You shove it in. Then you have to think about it.

42:40It was all in the arga. She can't cook off the arga. Stuffing? No. Lemon up the arse, that was it. Lemon up the arse. I'm not really a pudding person at all, although I... You could have fooled me, Tom. Yeah, of course. It's delicious. But that, I would have probably pudding, something like that, a chocolate something, or sticky toffee pudding, or treacle tart. Treacle tart. With custard or cream? Ice cream, actually. I like ice cream with this. But then I'd have cheese. I love cheese. Me too. Comte. Stinking bishop, cheddar, that, you know. And then maybe some... Wine. A savoury. Henry, what would be your last supper?

43:17Oh, God. It's something I think about increasingly. Really? As I edge towards 50. Oh, gosh. Christ. I wish I was 50. I think it would have to be smoked eel to start. Oh, my God. We've never had that. With horseradish? With horseradish. And like a nice white burgundy. Oh, my God. Hang on. This sounds like we're at the, what's it, arts club. Sessions Arts Club. That's like one of the openers there. It's stunning. I had an uncle who died and he used to take me to his club and we always had smoked deals. Oh, my God. I loved my deal so much. And it was, yeah, it's just the most delicious thing. And then I think main course, probably pork.

43:56I think maybe like, it's a bit extravagant, but, you know, I'm going to die. So, suckling pig. What, a really tiny Spanish one. Maybe not too tiny, but it's going to be, you know, it's going to be quite little. You know, maybe that big. like they do in Segovia they get the plate and they cut it in half because the skin is so crispy and then I'd have that with a really old fashioned Rioja like Vigna Tondonia which is this Rioja they've been making since the 19th century and they haven't changed it at all they don't use stainless steel it's all old barrels and stuff the oldest vintage I could find of that and then the pudding I'm tempted to just move on to Stilton and Port and then...

44:39No, you've got to have a pud. It would be like an apple and blackberry pie. Pastry on the bottom? Pastry on the bottom. We're now moving into a whole different world. Pastry on the bottom. Obviously shortcrust and then, you know, Bramley apples, brambles from the garden, which I picked, you know, the autumn before that had been frozen and then, you know, sort of baked, maybe, you know, with a bit. That's very nostalgically. Yeah, but that was always my mother's, there's like sort of most famous dish and have that then I'd have to have some really nice cheese afterwards glass of port can I ask you both what is something if I opened your fridge that I would always find in there sherry sherry you're really on brand yeah I've always got I've always got always got a bottle of dry sherry in the fridge like when are you drinking that just all year around but like a manthinia is like very very dry sherry and it's just it's delicious in the summer it's delicious in the winter what would you pair it with like on a weekday crisps it's like the best wine with crisps like any kind of have you read the crisps sommelier yes yeah i was supposed to do a piece on it for the thing and it was and there's another brilliant book called snacked by a guardian writer about the best crisps so we can move into a whole different world yeah we're really good people give a shit about our food which is unfair for chocolate and crisp were unbeatable.

46:01What's your favourite crisp? Scampi fry. Oh, I love it. What's he makes those? Oh, Smith. They're in the pubs. I remember when they arrived in the 80s and they were the poshest crisp. And if you ordered scampi fries, if you got scampi fries, people would be like, because everyone else had like, you know, walkers or golden wonder. I've got scampi fries. And they're a small bag. You get them every service station in the whole country. I've never seen them. You get the frazzles. They actually genuinely taste of scampi. Where do you stand on White Port? Oh, it's really nice. So do you prefer, because I would have that as an aperitif, more than a sherry.

46:38Oh, I've been white ported. We had the other day, we had Taylor's chip dry. We were both there, like, had it really cold. We were both like, ooh, you could just drink this at any time of the day. Morning, noon, night, you know. Tom, what's in your fridge? Comte, at the moment. Oh, yes, this is going to sound really wanky. Yeah. But there's this fizzy water you get. It's called Catalana. it's called Vichy Catillac and it's no more expensive than San Pelligone it's really salty, spanish, fizzy water and you get it from Zap and it's like£2.20 for a litre glass bottle but if you're not drinking it is so nice I just drink that all day Vichy Catillac Can I just ask something about your mum is she allowed to go in the kitchen and make something now that she's a queen?

47:25I think so, yeah because you talk about your mum's cooking so I'm wondering whether she gets to flex that Well, at her house where we grew up, yeah. Oh, okay, fine. Absolutely, yeah. But I don't think that you would, if you have really good chefs, why would you bother? But I just wondered if she's still putting a lemon up her. Oh, the roast chicken. A chicken ass, yeah. It is, yeah. She does, because if you put the lemon in there, you're getting that moisture. I know. And you've got to season it well in there. But roast chicken starts with good chicken. Everyone says, why can't I make good roast chicken?

47:53You have to be a bit boring and buy a happy chicken. And regarding the afternoon tea, I know that you've talked about the afternoon tea and that it's quite fab and you're really happy when there's potted shrimp I love potted shrimp maybe that would be my thing would you have alcohol with potted shrimps? maybe a class of my burgundy I'm sorry I'm interrupting you said there were Fortnum's this was another podcast that you did there were Fortnum's sandwiches they're going and buying the sandwiches I was confused the last book I did was about Fortnum and they would be quite similar, but they would be the, I love sandwiches.

48:31Me too. Even taking the, you know, go to a service station. Yeah. I'm a sucker for either prawn mayonnaise or ham and cheese. Yeah. I'm a really shit ham and cheese one. Like, like the shell ones that I really like, really bad sandwiches. I really love sandwiches. I love sandwiches. I have one. Every time I go to a service station, pack of the scambi fries. I now do Coke, Cherry Coke Zero. I love Cherry Coke and really bad sandwiches. Heaven. But the ones, No, they're made fresh. In the Palace of the Palace of the Palace. They're quite fab. They're really nice, yeah. And you've got tea and you've had breakfast, you've had lunch, you get tea.

49:04And then you've got dinner afterwards and I'm sort of... Do you ever kind of just like ring on the doorbell and go, like you know it's nearly five and you're like, well, afternoon tea's definitely happening. No, because their schedule, South American, are so blocked up. Yeah, really. If there's a tea free, as far as I know, it's usually with the head of this or the president. I mean, or the head of a charity. you know, you wouldn't just wander in like, hi. I mean, so my mum is 73. Oh, tell the whole world. Thank you. Thank you, Henry. Henry, you're a gem. And how, and your mum is? 70. Something.

49:4170 something. Five, six, seven. And now she's like got this blooming job. Like it's quite full on, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I think, you know, she's very much a person getting on with it. Shut up, get on with it. When you go. She looked great. She must be 70. Sorry. She's a bit older than me. I don't make you, but we do this podcast and you still work. Yeah. Henry, is your mum about? She's about, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does she work? She's making schnitzel done. She looks after the girls and stuff. She actually used to be a cook. Did she? So she used to work for Hodder and Stoughton. The publishers. The publishers.

50:25and she used to cook for the board and that was her job and they lived in Stoke Newington and she used to go down to Green Lanes and go to all the kind of Greek, you know, whatever they're called, the kind of Greek shops. Lots of Turkish places, yeah, Cypriot. And they would buy all the food and then she'd cook for the board. So she was, you know, a sort of semi-professional cook and then when, you know, I'm one of three boys and then, you know, she didn't want to work after. She lived near you now. They live in Amersham, so the other side of London, so not far. Before we finish, which I feel like we could talk forever.

50:59Ever, yeah. And it's been such a pleasure having you. It could be the apple and blackberry pie, but can you both give me a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere? I've literally just written a piece. Literally as I left, I just finished a piece for Country Life about, you know, Proust and his Madeleines. You've never read fucking Proust. They always know it was the Madeleines. We know about the Madeleines. You know that he has his one bite dipped in tea and suddenly his childhood memories all come back. It's a trigger of childhood. And this is why I was thinking, shit, what does it?

51:27And actually I suddenly realised it was Derry Lee. And Derry Lee, you'd get Derry Lee and you'd have it in your pocket, be warm when you were like eight, you know, when you were seven, eight, nine, not at boarding school, but, you know, normal school when you were, before you went to boarding school. And you make a little nick in the thing and squirt it into your mouth. And that literally took me straight back to 1978 in the playground in Wiltshire, Kiss Chase, and, you know, all that sort of stuff. And it does do it, you know, because Derry Lee still tastes bland, a little bit salty. It doesn't taste of anything, really.

51:57It's a bit cheesy. It's a bit... But that was my... Did you get one from the shops? I went and got it. Actually, I got it from Zap because my local corner shop didn't have it. And I ate it, and actually, it was the same. It was cold because you'd always have it warm in your shorts because you'd nick a couple to go to school with. I think I prefer Lavash TV. That was a bit classy for the world in the 70s. That was a bit French, a bit foreign. A bit French. Wouldn't have happened. Henry, have you got one? I don't know, probably something like, does it have to be home cooked? No, just a bit of fragrance or something.

52:28Well, it's got to be salt, vinegar, crisps. That is the thing that just takes me back. It always reminds me of summer holidays where we'd go and visit my grandmother in Scotland, my mother's mother, who is of Austrian heritage, but she lived up in Aberdeen. And there weren't many pubs around there that did real ale, like proper kind of tents. Beer, beer. So it was all like this kind of Scottish beer that my father didn't like. So we would drive for like two hours and we'd go to some pub that basically didn't let children in. It kind of technically probably did let women in, but he didn't want to bring women in there.

53:05So my father would go out there and have two pints and he'd hand us some crisps and we'd go and sit outside and eat crisps. That's what we all did. My dad just leave me out outside the pub. And he'd have a few pints. H2O would have been. And then we'd get drunk, but he'd just be like, I'm on holiday, I'm with my mother-in-law, I'm in Scotland, you know, I'm from London. You know, this is the... I found someone that does good beer. And he'd be like, here are your crisps, get outside, I'm going to have a couple of pints. Have a bench. Do you like karaoke? Besides Tottenham Anthem? Well, there's...

53:40On the Seven Sisters Road, there's a Nigerian-owned Tottenham karaoke bar on the left-hand side. Oh, my God. which is absolutely amazing. So you get really good Nigerian snacks in there and it looks like a sort of slightly sort of mid-90s rave club. And you go there and you sing. You only go there obviously if you won. If you lost, you're straight up. Straight up, you sent the sisters straight home down the Victoria line back. But it's really good. And I can't remember what it's called. And we ended up there at about one in the morning. Singing? What were you singing? Well, lucky for Spurs with the year-ends in one was definitely one.

54:14And come on you, Spurs. But there were a few karaoke songs as well. I think probably Sweet Caroline. Do you like karaoke? I'm not a very good singer. That's okay. I had this actually very amusing karaoke experience in Denmark where I had this Danish girlfriend for many years and her father was... I actually turned out to be really in with Putin and Russian oligarchs. Oh, my God. I didn't know that at the time. But he had all these Russian businessman friends. And we went to this Chinese restaurant and then the karaoke came out. And basically the whole room was full of Russian businessmen. And then I was kind of pushed on stage and they basically said, you have to sing something.

54:56And it was all these, you know, this was the 90s. It was all like these kind of, you know, Russian men, like kind of bursting out of their suits and stuff. And I did, I would walk 500 miles by the climbers. And I did it in this like Billy Connolly accent. Oh, wow. Amazing. And they all fucking loved it. Oh, I felt they did. But they were all, I mean, absolutely shit-faced. so they were all that bagging. Wow. And I haven't done it since then because I just couldn't top that. That's brilliant. Well done, Henry. Tom and Henry, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Good luck with your podcast.

55:28Yeah. And thank you for having us on. The food was wonderful. Thank you so much. That roast lamb and the chocolate pudding. Oh, you like that? The chocolate pudding was excellent. Yeah. I'm going to waddle back home. Yeah.

55:51Tom Parker Bowles and Henry Jeffries on the podcast. I'm reading up. I'm trying to leave now. And their podcast feels like it's good. We were just talking when we were taking a photo and they've got the lady who did a whole book about martinis. Yeah, Alice LaSalle. They're going to do an episode with her. It feels like this intoxicating history seems like it could go on forever. Where there's a drink, there's a net. there's a story so I love the idea that they're going to do the history of the martini you can go and listen to Intoxicating History now in its first season and you can also read Henry's book, Vines in a Cold Climate or you can go and read Tom's latest book Cooking in the Crown and we'll see, mum your cake was delicious.

56:38Did you like it? Yes. It was clever wasn't it? It was really good and shout out to two legends Tommy Banks and Yotam for supplying inspiration plus Julius Roberts on the old Cavallonero mash which I felt like was nice with it it was nice subtle and nice subtle and nice we will see you next week thanks for listening

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