Are Man United in a relegation battle?

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1:40The Athletic FC.

1:58This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, we have to reflect once again, unfortunately, on another defeat for Michael Carrick's side, this time against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, with Alessandro Martinez sent off as well. We're going to have to preview the game against Roma in the Champions League in the week as well. That looks tricky, to be honest, not just with United's form, but also theirs, but we'll talk about that in a bit. We've got Laurie in London, we've got Andy at home as well. And Laurie, yeah, you were there. I'm running out of questions to ask you about it, to be honest.

2:31It's just not good enough still. Okay, there was maybe signs in the first half that there was a bit of life, but it all fell apart. Yeah, I mean, you could ask me why I'm still here. Yeah. Just to compound the day. Why are you still there? Well, not to get all Andy Mitten and slag off some travel services, but yeah, the trains were all cancelled from Euston. So much similar to the time I was trapped in Liverpool after the 7-0 and my car was impounded by, you know, some gates that wouldn't open. Yeah, I've had to stay down and wallow in a defeat for United. Yeah, when it was Halloween night as well.

3:04So it's like, you know, it's like a zombie apocalypse on the streets of London. There's so many costumes, you know, knocking about. And to be fair, you could sort of draw comparisons, could you? I'm being too harsh with some of what went on at Stamford Bridge because, yeah, there was some positive signs in the first half. I mean, we're kind of grasping at straws here, aren't we, really? But I did think United at least showed a response, came out playing some good football, should have been ahead, but then that fragility is just there all the time and that Morgan Rodgers goal was embarrassing from a United perspective.

3:36I know that he's done really well, but to not have a challenge come in, You've got Andrea Santos sort of sliding next to him, strangely. Lissandro Martinez not closing down. Obviously, Harry Maguire was next to him. I think he had to look over his shoulder at Esteval and protect that. Lenny Yorra would kind of pushed up in that moment. So, yeah, it was just the Red Sea parted and then that changed the game. And Chelsea are up. United crumble. Martinez getting sent off. I think we really have to discuss that in detail because I think that was a dereliction of duty, really, from his position as a United player to do that and make those two acts to get sent off and then concede a penalty.

4:16And then the game's done, isn't it, at that point? So here we are again, another defeat for United. And you're now at the stage where, in the press room afterwards, we were looking at, well, United could drop into the bottom three here, the relegation zone. And they were at one point, sort of half three, I think it was, where Forest was still drawing at Brentford and Coventry were beating Sunderland. So United were in the bottom three at that point. And obviously then Brentford go on to win. So United get a reprieve, I suppose, at the end of the day. But it's historically bad in terms of where United are in the Premier League.

4:47And obviously there's so many questions to ask and so much responsibility to take. And we'll get into that, no doubt, as the podcast goes on. Yeah, we'll talk about the R word. I can't believe I'm even saying that, actually, to be honest, in a little while. But just to go back into yesterday, Andy, I mean, winless in nine games for the first time since 1988. This is historically bad for Manchester United. And, you know, all right, there was some signs in that first half, but how on earth do they move on from this situation? Because it doesn't seem to be getting better. If anything, the second half just compounded how everyone's feeling about it at the moment.

5:25This is relegation for me, and I think we were pretty patient at the start of the season, but we're not at the start of the season now. it's deeply worrying this doesn't change Manchester United are going down for the first time since the mid-70s the first half yeah there were positives but we're saying that in a lot of matches positives are not getting you any points Manchester United have not won a game since since August and in the Premier League and it's deeply troubling and we'll get into it in more detail I'm starting to lose sleep over it Ian I didn't sleep well last night for probably the first time in my life because of because of Manchester United maybe it was my dog trying to get in the bed my dog who stopped supporting United by the way my wife thought it'd be funny when I was in Como or Madrid or some other beautiful city where you're supposed to enjoy yourself but you don't because United are terrible you put a Barcelona shirt onto me part-time glory hunting dog which you fit a shirt onto your dog yeah I've got a picture of it yeah I'm getting told off by my watch I wear a watch which tells you how well you've slept and your heart rate and all that sort of stuff and i'm getting i woke up this morning it's like you had very high levels of stress yesterday of course i did i watched manchester united this is what it's like all the time i've got my wife saying it's not that important you know there's there's train crashes and wars and people being evacuated from villages and uh in war zones and i get all that got my daughter saying what happens if manchester united go down am i gonna be able to show my face i'm like these are the side issues but it's a deeply deeply frustrating time um there's loads of issues i'm sure we'll get into it the biggest one remains the ownership structure at manchester united everything stems down um from that there was a brilliant athletic podcast yesterday the other day sorry about um will the glazers ever sell manchester united if you've not seen it or listen to it, then do so.

7:24But at half-time, just as it leads at half-time, you're thinking, not as bad as the previous week. Of course it wasn't. Nothing could be as bad as the previous week. But United have got to take the chances. They're creating chances. There were some good performances. I thought it was a good game yesterday in the first half. But then another team comes out in the second half. Is that because they're tired, because they're pressing too much? Got to take your chances. and then Morgan Rodgers who Manchester United wanted by the way really high up on the list but was just considered too expensive and he ends up going out of Chelsea for 1-1-7 I think it was scores that goal and Laurie was quite right to point out the people who were culpable with that goal finally I have to mention Lissandro Martinez he's let his team down once again this is happening in more matches than not and he's become a liability towards Manchester United and yesterday wasn't just on Lissandro Martinez.

8:23It was on Michael Carrick and his staff. It was on the players in the second half as well. United fans singing loud and proud to the end. Then a lot of them getting stranded in London. So I was getting messages at midnight, still at Euston, don't know what to do or 11 o 'clock at night. So another bad day in the office and we've got two massive games this week. Yeah. Wow. A lot to unpack again. I feel like that's becoming my catchphrase now where these podcasts are concerned. Let's talk about Lissandro Martinez because both of you have mentioned him. Obviously a red card for two yellows in quick succession, something like four minutes apart, but that obviously included a delay to review it and everything else.

8:59So in reality, an actual light open play, it was about two in 90 seconds maybe. And it's just a pattern with him, Laurie, isn't it, this season? This is not about just yesterday. This is not just in reaction to the days following the interview that he gave after Atletico, where he got so much support from Manchester United supporters. He said the things that shouldn't be said in some ways and obviously everyone seemed to be pleased about what he did. But on the field, the performances that he's given either side of that interview, basically it was listed out in our WhatsApp group yesterday. So Rob to concede against Ipswich, missed control before Tyreek George's goal v Everton, own goal against Fulham, beaten by Solanke for the Spurs equaliser, outburst post-Atletico, injured at half-time against Leeds and now concedes a penalty and sent off against Chelsea.

9:51Michael Cox, I think maybe a bit dramatically, said he's the worst player in the Premier League so far this season. But unfortunately, when you read that out, he's maybe the most costly, I suppose. Yeah, well, thank you to Critch for that because he popped it in our group and I was in the throes of trying to write my piece after the game and that helped crystallise my thoughts. And it just emphasised that Martinez has had these issues consistently this season and you know is that the standard that he's at is that because his head is not in Manchester United it feels like yesterday certainly was a an example of how a player can think about the wider context of where he's at in a you know in his career in within a game it don't know maybe I'm reading too much into it but certainly from that first goal not getting close at all to Rodgers and then trying to get too close to him you know moments after that when he's down by the touchline, you know, drags him down, tries to anyway, unsuccessful, goes back again for a second bite of it and then has to get booked and then it's the, yeah, the free kick then turns into a corner and then he totally loses for Fahna and then he just jumps into him.

11:00I mean, when I was watching it on Repo, I was like, oh, is it really a foul? You sort of watch it again and, you know, he leaps into him with his arms around his face. It goes into his throat, obviously for Fahna, makes sure that the referee is very clear about him seeing it and ruling it as such. Obviously, the VAR intervenes to point him in that direction. I called it a harsh red card, but really, on reflection, I was wrong there. It's clearly a second booking. Off he goes. Actually, at Sanford Bridge, you're really close to the dugout, so you can see the reactions from people. Johnny Evans came across.

11:33It was a bit of a Mikel Arteta on Max Dallman from midweek, if people saw that, where he was in his face after getting sent off at Fleetwood. It wasn't quite as strong as that, but he was basically ushering him down the tunnel with a bit of a stern look and sort of said something to him so yeah you can only imagine that people are frustrated that he has has done that to kind of then undermine his team you know because it's I think certainly we can all um understand why he said what he said after Atletico or at least the sentiment of it you know like I say he wasn't alone in saying what he said about the executives about the the state of the club but then you've got to do it yourself.

12:10You can't then just, you know, tear it down from your position. You know, you have to stand up and be counted. And in that first half, yeah, I think he did. But then, you know, the first sign of trouble and it collapses. And that's not a leader. That's somebody that is, you know, I guess, focused on themselves and what their future might hold. Now, obviously, his contract's up in the summer, isn't it? There's a plus one. You wouldn't expect United to trigger that. there's been suggestions of you know Barcelona whether that's from sort of his viewpoint thinking I'd love to go there or not uh from what I can tell Barcelona you know better than me Andy but from from chatting to somebody yesterday they were saying that they would only do a kind of low cost deal at all if anything so you know would that be an option in January would that benefit United you are in that this realm now given that list that we've read out and given you know the performance that you know is obviously going to be banned for a game uh domestically that um does when does he come back into the team?

13:06Does he? Should he deserve that? You know, Aidan Heaven came on. He had a difficult game against Bournemouth for sure. I think there's a contributing factor to that in terms of understanding your teammates or, you know, some nerves at play there, confidence certainly. But I thought he actually did pretty well when he came on. And, you know, obviously it didn't go any further. I know they had the offside goal disallowed by Esteval that was really tight, but Maguire was straight across the lines but I'm not saying it was offside. So at least it didn't spiral into a really damaging defeat. I mean, I know, again, small mercies, we're talking about a 2-0 defeat at Chelsea when United last won a Premier League game in August.

13:42That's where we're at, yeah. Wow. Yeah, we probably need to kind of emphasise this point about it being so far below what United should be at that they're even talking about the relegation zone. I mean, it's scandalous, really. You know, United, the financial might that they have at their disposal, it's a different world. So I think in the piece I mentioned that, United last time were in the relegation places after August was in 1986-87 when Ron Atkinson was manager he got sacked and Sir Alex Ferguson came in before his knighthood so just plain old Alec Ferguson but that now United have that financial might they should be incubated from this kind of talk I know we've seen it with Spurs and they you know finished 17th two seasons running but United should be way beyond anything like this and so in that moment I guess maybe that's why Martinez is acting out but it still should have repercussions on the pitch for him A lot of criticism coming in on email for Lissandro Martinez Andy I mean John says he came out after the Atletico game he was right about what he said but it wasn't right to do it as a player at the time I thought it was a bit rich coming from him considering his form this season but he's continued to prove himself a liability he's been abysmal Jamie has been ill-disciplined off the pitch and now on it as well his performances have been awful he's been responsible for many of the goals we've conceded he should be one of the leaders but he isn't at the moment that's the thing we supported it we talked about the support that Lissandro got for what he said after the Atletico game and this is obviously now a few games on from that is there a chance that he leaves in January given everything we've spoken about?

15:25Is there a chance that Barcelona would be interested, like Laurie mentioned a moment ago? If Barcelona want to do a straight swap for Paulo Cubasi, then there will be absolutely no problems in my mind at all with that. But a lot of players want to play in Barcelona for various reasons and Barcelona know that and they take advantage of that and they offer them£30 a week and, you know, if you win everything then we'll give you a little bit more than that. I think Martinez's stock is at its lowest point as a Manchester United player. he's long wanted a new contract he's not been getting a new contract Manchester United would have sold him in the summer I dropped major hints in April and May saying it if Atletico Madrid came in for him for example they didn't they went for Christian Romero in mitigation on on the side of Martinez the players around him earn a lot more money than he does but that's partly because he's never played enough games because he's been injured so often and he's playing like somebody who is not that bothered about the future of Manchester United he's more bothered about the future for for Lissandro Martinez and there's a lot of self-centered players at that football club at the moment he's making major match changing errors in the majority of matches that he plays and I would not be surprised if you might need to play him you know Leeds a few weeks ago you had to play him because there was not really anyone else but um is delict ready again you know i know he's been featuring i know he played in in como can the defensive partnership be delict and maguire going forward because martinez is costing you united were all right in that first half and actually martinez wasn't even bad in the first half but the team are so fragile as Laurie said that as soon as the team go behind it's like oh no what's coming next and had it not been for some good defending and safes it would have been a lot worse than 2-0 if you're down to 10 away at Chelsea you're costing your team massively and them two yellow cards came in what 90 seconds of each other?

17:30Pretty much in actual play yeah. You're just a liability I can see Martinez being at the club as being more of a negative influence, I first had doubts about him after the World Cup in 22 that it could be difficult but then I interviewed him after the FA Cup final in 24 and he was fantastic and he's singing along happier days seems a long way away from where we are now doesn't it? Two and a half years ago yeah When he plays well he's definitely got something that no other defenders can give but he has been a liability for Manchester United this season and Critch was right to point him out To go on the other side of it Laurie he is a good footballer we've seen him have brilliant games for Manchester United He was named in the team of the tournament at the World Cup.

18:13You know, you don't do that by being at the level he's been at this season for United so far. And that's the thing. You know, I've read other messages and other comments from people saying he should never play for United again. Or, you know, put him in the reserves or sell him in January, you know, whatever it might be. But the reality is they need him, don't they? They need him at the level that he's shown in the past. They need him to be one of the leaders in the team. They need him to get past whatever this is at the moment. Yeah, well, I mean, not to kind of bang on about this interview that I did, but Erickson Haag pointed out that Andro Martinez and Bruno Fernandes are the two players he absolutely had to have in his team for that to be successful.

18:49Now we're talking even further back than the FA Cup final where, you know, 1922-23 season, God, I wish it was 1922-1923, that him and Martinez and Bruno were the two guys that, you know, had to be the heartbeat of it. And it's because of his passing from the back, that ability to start moves from a deeper position. And he's still, I think, up there for statistics in terms of those kind of passes, even this season. but yeah certainly when you've got a sort of you know younger player in aid in heaven knocking on the door with his left foot you know so as in it's a very straightforward replacement who can do those passes I would say but clearly has had issues in certain moments this season you sort of wonder at what point do United go let's give this a run rather than you know the same with Lenny Yoro to a degree but if they're going to be your future why not start now and obviously there would be a counter argument to that and certainly Michael Carrick's trying to get results in the immediate and ultimately as all managers I think would do you go with experience for all the kind of idea that the youth of the future they will also make mistakes will they make more serious mistakes potentially but I think that you could maybe get to an argument where you're saying actually on this one you know what's what's the future for Martinez at United I don't think anybody thinks that he is the future for United so do you make that change now now on the flip side I'm saying that United are floating with the relegation zone so you have to take immediate action you have to get points really we're in that kind of state already

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22:54That leads me on to what actually happens from this moment because Michael Carrick was pretty certain, Andy, after the game yesterday that he would be in charge for the Roma match. The match is very close together now, bouncing into Roma and then Aston Villa. Obviously, the other side of that is the international break. Are we just in a holding pattern this week? I mean, have we just written off a week? What's going on? Maybe. It's not been confirmed. I had no sense last week that Michael Carrick was going to lose his job. I said that on the podcast. And people were coming to me going, he's gone.

23:27He's lost his job last night. I was like, has he? Why are you telling me this, son? Because I don't have any evidence of that. I said on the last pod, maybe the thinking was to see if Michael Carrick can get a reaction from his players in these three games and in the first half against Chelsea I think I think there was a reaction but you still lost the game 2-0 another defeat and a reaction in one half of a football match is not going to be good enough United have needed wins right from the start of the season wins are not coming it is an alarming situation that the team are in now and Roma is going to be a tough game and we'll talk about it further on in this podcast.

24:05But if you don't lose to Roma, then suddenly your position in the Champions League, which is vital for Manchester United this season, financially in terms of status, et cetera, suddenly you're in a position where you've played four and you've lost three of the matches, which is you're not getting out of that Champions League group. And then you've got Aston Villa. United beat Villa at home last season, lost away but actually played well in that game just before Christmas with Unai Emery is doing a fantastic job there. And it's a really tough game. Looking at it now, I've not thought too much about Villa.

24:40There's no way I can see Manchester United beating Aston Villa on Sunday. And the holding pattern is just repeat, repeat, repeat. Can we get a result at the weekend? I think fans are tired now of, okay, they've been training well, there's been clear the air talks, they're a good group of lads. I think all those lines have been used now. And I think they were used with the best intentions to try and get a reaction. But I don't think any more words will suffice from the manager or for any players. And what Manchester United need and have needed all season is points and wins. And obviously that situation that Andy's just described there, Laurie, leads you to analyse the leadership team of Manchester United again, the ownership of Manchester United again.

25:29And again, it just feels like we're in this holding pattern of the results continuing to be poor, the scrutiny continuing to deepen. You wrote in your piece yesterday about how much worse things have got on average since Ineos took control of Manchester United. An average of 1.38 points per Premier League game. A defeat every 2.8 matches. And this is in a nearly three-year period, so it's a pretty big sample size. and in between Ferguson retiring and then Ineos making their investment, still not fantastic, an average of 1.81 points a game and a defeat every 4.22 games. So even if you're looking at the overall picture on the field, there's legitimate questions and criticism.

26:16But when you consider the situation they're in right now where we're not actually sure what the plan is moving forward and what will happen next, it isn't a good situation this is it? No it's an unholy mess really I get what Andy's saying in terms of it never actually got to the point of people thinking that he was losing his job last week but certainly there was conversations that were going on to sort of think about that prospect because otherwise United would have just quashed it straight away after the game against Bournemouth and it took nearly two days didn't it to get clarity on that now my information was at that point that they wanted to get to the international break and then make another assessment of the situation, which I then put out as kind of the lead aspect to my piece yesterday in the match.

27:02I think we sort of hinted at it, didn't we? We kind of felt that way on the podcast last week that we did. But that reaction from people, I suppose it didn't surprise me, but it felt that a lot of people were thinking, well, that's writing off the Roma and the Aston Villa games then. I don't know, I wouldn't see it quite like that, but I can understand the sentiment where you're thinking you can't ignore these two games coming up they're big games as well but I think United had these discussions decided this was their course of action so to change that now would be a reversal I would say and then who comes in basically you know have they got anybody actually lined up not to my knowledge I think there's inquiries being made but whether that then translates into anything significant at this stage I'm not aware of that and so that's why I think Carrick after the game was very short with the questions I think it was TNT that asked him will you be in charge for the Roma game he said yes and then I think in answer to a question in the press conference he said I'm looking forward to getting back training with the boys ahead of midweek so he's already thinking about Roma at least it was it was quite a flat press conference I've got to say from Carrick I think he's been really good recently in terms of showing that emotion you know showing that fight we talked about the monologue before the Bournemouth game which I thought was was a commendable way to go about things and I think did strike a chord with me at least but it felt I mean I guess you're in the immediate aftermath of a defeat at Chelsea where you're thinking we've done quite well in this first half they've actually shown some response to players to then come away from it with another defeat it felt like that you know really did impact him um but yeah then to the broader question you know the people that are making the call there's no evidence that they will get this right anyway or then create the environment that would allow somebody new coming in potentially to have a significant uplift because you just said there you've read out the statistics you know i think uh you know two and a half years is a sample size large enough to make a judgment on this and you know you've had jim ratcliffe coming in appointing people in positions who have then made decisions on the football side of things that now lead us to this point where united are again as i say in the relegation zone at one point because the only the only period where you've had success consistently in the premier league is michael carrick as interim manager so i'll repeat the point again so i think that's a fair assessment then to make and clearly the fans again understandably pointing their direction at all different levels.

29:39The players actually, they applauded them. Obviously, we touched on the serious disconnect that there was at Old Trafford when Carrick walked down the tunnel and he said he felt uncomfortable about that actually a little bit or mixed feelings afterwards. I appreciate what the fans did for him in that moment, but the sharp turn on the players caught him by surprise. He said that in his talks with the players, he had said, we're all in this together, so I don't separate myself from you. I think that did seem to have an impact at Chelsea. It seemed like they were together at least in that first half um but obviously again the ownership the glazers ratcliffe they want the they want them to sell and go um and then also jason wilcox was named again at stanford bridge omar barrada was next to him in the director's box ratcliffe wasn't there um which was maybe surprising um you know a place where he's had a season ticket before um not too far from where he lives um but he wasn't there um so it's barrada and wilcox to face the music, so to speak.

30:35But you can obviously question, are they the right people then to be making this next call? Because you've got Erickson Hard contract renewal, then dismissal. You've got Ruben Amarin appointment, which very much was, I would say, Ratcliffe-Barada. I think Wilcox had some questions around whether the system would work, but then got on board with it. And then because you've had Dan Ashworth leave, I think that's what's then really enhanced people's feelings on this situation because you had somebody in the building who had at least done that before at the Premier League level even at England and so instead you've got a group of people that are now you know making a potential decision on a third mid-season change in three years and that's why there is that anger around it because as I say United should not be in this position at all and yeah it's a difficult moment for everybody it's not enjoyable really you know as a journalist, it's a very privileged position to be in.

31:33And you try and find out information and get under the skin of things. But clearly there's a lot of high emotions around. And I'd just much rather be writing about United in the Champions League places rather than the relegation places. Yeah, I think there's a lot of fair comment there. Look, I think everyone agrees on the Glazers. I've not met a single Manchester United fan who thinks that they've been good for the club at all consistently. So we've said that consistently. But I also think it's fair to judge Ineos now because they have got a body of work at Manchester United. They have made multiple decisions.

32:07They've been praised for some. They've been criticised for others and they'll be criticised right now because Manchester United's league position is alarming. It's horrendous. Do you say you're in a relegation battle? I've not got much experience of this. But when does being down in the table become a relegation battle? because I cannot see this team getting 40 points the way that it looks at the moment. Well, the average so far would have them at about 30 points, I think. 29, 30, yeah. I mean, they're outside the relegation zone on goal difference only. It's the first time they've failed to win any of the first seven away games in a season since they were last relegated in 1973.

32:45So the evidence so far, and they are way better than this, which is part of why we're annoyed and frustrated and asking questions of everything. But the evidence so far suggests they are in a relegation battle, which is an absolutely ridiculous thing to be saying. And I asked Michael Carrick about that particular point. I said, is your team equipped to handle that? That mentality shift from aspiring towards, you know, trying to challenge for a title? Because that's been an issue. After the finished third, Casemiro certainly got affected, I think, by the, for example, you know, in his pedigree, by the signings that were made or the ambition that was shown by the club.

33:18Martinez has obviously said what he said after finishing third last season, which, you know, wasn't a fantastic season, even though he said it was. But that shift for players to go from trying to reach for Champions League places to then battling against relegation, that feels like that's when you get these moments like Martinez did yesterday where his head seemed to go. It's early though, isn't it, as well? It's the 1st of November, that's the other factor. So this season from this point can be rescued, it should be rescued. So this should only be a fleeting moment where we're even thinking about this, Andy, surely.

33:51But we're saying it every week, Ian. I know it's getting worse. Are we going to be here in February going, you know, the lads train well and it was a good first 18 minutes? It's not good enough. And I think we were really patient and supportive at the start of the season. We didn't go in hard on any of the new players. We're still not actually because them new players deserve time. They're young lads, they're trying their best. And even yesterday I'm watching Andre Santos thinking, decent, decent. but what was saying was about Ineos' stock being low. Jim Ratcliffe came in with a lot of goodwill towards him and that's not normal because the default of Manchester United fans is to dislike the decision makers.

34:33It always has been for as long as I've been involved for various, various reasons. He got a lot of support because he wasn't the Glazers, because he was putting money in, because he was promising redevelopment in the training ground. The idea of a new stadium was not as toxic as it might seem now with a lot of supporters. And that goodwill has been utterly squandered through a series of bad decisions by Ineos. Decisions which they would be getting praised for if they'd made the right ones, but they'd made the wrong ones. And when they're new in the door, you're like, OK, give him time. I think Ruben Amarin really benefited from the idea of there needs to be a major rebuild there.

35:12OK, we're going to sing your name even though we're losing every week. and then he goes. And then you move into Michael Carrick, and suddenly you're like, okay, Ineos, you've made eight, nine, ten decisions, and you're actually getting more of them wrong now than you're getting right. And I think United fans are patient and supportive. And Laurie's right. It's not a nice atmosphere at the moment. It's horrible. It's horrible for everybody. And I've said on previous podcasts, I don't think there's a single person who goes into work. Well, maybe Martinez is exempt from this statement, who doesn't want the best for Manchester United.

35:46I know staffers who are really hurting. They work at the club. They're proud to work at the club. They're just normal working people doing their very best. But they're working for a football club, which is failing where it matters most at the moment, which is on the pitch. And we've discussed the reasons why in great depth. And I get where you're coming from, Ian. It's still early. Yeah, it is still early. And someone I respect who's written for the fanzine for years said to me the other day, you know, we're only eight games in, Andy. Too much emotion, too much overreaction. But now we're nine games in.

36:19And what happens when we're 18 games in? Do you know what I mean? I've still not seen much evidence, genuine evidence, that United can get out of this mess. That first half was decent, as the first half at Leeds was. But what do you end up coming away with? One point from those two games. And then you get the horror shows, which punctuate these little moments of potential brightness, the absolute horror shows of Tottenham ripping you apart at Old Trafford for the first half hour. You look at the opponents as well. I know the Premier League, the standards are higher than ever, but you're getting teams coming to Old Trafford, like the last two visitors, Bournemouth and Tottenham, who are at the bottom of the table.

37:04What happens when the good teams start coming? You know, there's reasons for negativity. I still don't think now Manchester United will go down, but I'm questioning myself. It's mental that you're even asking that question in a serious way, aren't you? You shouldn't be asking that question. Well, I am. Because you can't win a football match. I know, but we shouldn't. Another part of my personality is thinking, do we organise a party to celebrate two months since Manchester United last won a game in a few weeks? There will be a time in the future when we look back at this and hopefully say, this was a low point.

37:38but they're coming every week and as football supporters you do have to experience low points as well and i'm seeing some sympathy towards manchester united when i do my media stuff in so much as the glazes are bad for football no club wants this but i'm seeing lots of gloating as well from rival fans going welcome to the real world your football team's losing matches you know other teams have been relegated before as lorry touched on the financial strength of manchester united means the club shouldn't be insulated from going down but the level of underachievement this season is spectacular that sort of brings me a bit more to the wider point again in that people have sort of said well oh it'd be great relegation and then the glazers will sell but i actually think it's the opposite i can't see how the glazers would sell when the club's value is lower than it could be you know i still think it retain its value in the championship you know if you want to get into these kind of brutal economic terms but surely they would want the club in the premier league at its highest peak or to to a degree um to you know cash in their shares or whatever um and then And it's also this awkward, I would say, partnership between the Glazers and Ratcliffe, who have different personalities, who have their opinions, who then every major decision has to go through both of them to get signed off.

39:12So you get in a delay in a process. How much autonomy do the people making the football decisions actually have when it comes down to it? how much interaction is there from Ratcliffe and the like. And that's why it makes me concerned about the future because how will it really ever change if it's going to be the same and same? I thought when Ratcliffe came in, maybe he would appoint people who had more urgency about them to do what was best for Manchester United, better people. And that was the hope that I held because of, maybe was it what he'd done elsewhere, although I know that Nice isn't a bed of roses right now for sure and fans there had had issues with their running of the club back then but I sort of had this hope that maybe it could be different because I felt that under the glazes it had been stasis it had been paralysis really it kind of not been investment it had not been having that desire really that urgency to make United champions again but as it's turned out the the kind of way that you know Ratcliffe has gone about it is to lower the wage bill, to kind of get United on an even financial footing.

40:21But that obviously comes with the risk of then you're buying the best players and then you're seeing the results on the pitch. And then also this idea that they're going to set a game model and you're going to have a sporting director at the top and experience people in place with those connections that you need, with that kind of foresight, mapping it out and it's going to be fitting one after the other. If it doesn't quite work out with a head coach, fine, we'll fit somebody else in. But each head coach has been different to the last. personality and style of play wise so that's why for me now at this particular moment the concerns are the greatest I've had around United just because of I don't really see how with the financial picture at the club and with the decision making that's gone on so far it's going to suddenly flick and be better.

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42:36Right, well should we cheer ourselves up and preview Manchester United playing football again? They're against AS Roma as we've mentioned next in the Champions League on Tuesday. Again something needs to change, there needs to be some reaction. So what sort of shape are Roma in heading into this game? Here's James Horncastle with more good news. Greetings from Italy Just come out of the Milan derby But before that Roma beat Udinese 5-2 It's their most prolific start to the season in a decade Even before 2016-17 They'd only scored this many goals Sort of in the 1960s You've got Daniel Marlin Who signed in January And has been, as I've said before Kind of the best January signing since Mo Salah in the league scored 22 goals I think which is the most this calendar year in Europe's top five leagues so you know better than your Harry Kane's and all that they're really ticking over nicely on the Giampiero Gasparini they look like they can actually contend for the title particularly on a weekend in which Inter have lost the derby so a lot of excitement down in Rome they come to Manchester yeah full of confidence but they have got some injuries Paolo Dybala has been out Manu Kone, their best midfielder, picked up an injury against Real Madrid.

43:55But they've got also some players back as well. So, you know, I fear for Man United because I remember when the draw came out, I suppose when they looked at Coman and Roma coming out, they thought, well, at least it's not Juve or Milan or Inter. But they've come up against arguably two of the most informed teams in Italy of the last couple of years. so yeah it doesn't give me much confidence for United going into this game. Thank you James for that upbeat analysis of the build-up to this game the shape that Roma are in obviously just coming out of a Milan derby which Ruben Amarind's Milan had won as well just to sort of pile on the positivity Andy I mean we've talked about it already we should be looking forward to this game this should be what being back in the Champions League is all about but when you listen to James talk about the form that Roma are in, the most prolific start to a season in a long time, unbeaten in Serie A, only lost in the Champions League to Real Madrid from 13 matches so far.

45:00They've won eight of their games. This is going to be very, very tough again. Yeah, well, I watched them play Real Madrid. They were brilliant. They lost the game, but I think they were 3-1 up after 82 minutes. They're playing really, really good football. They come to Old Trafford as favourites. because they've been so impressive. And Gasparini, I spoke to people at Atalanta, they weren't that sad to see him go because he just dominates his football, his personality, but he's got a very clearly defined style of football, which was hugely successful in Bergamo for Atalanta. And he's working at Roma.

45:36I'm just seeing James there leaving San Siro. If you've never been, try and go before that wonderful stadium is demolished. I was in Rome in the summer and I got an Uber to take my family to the Vatican. And it was a long-got day, and I got talking to the driver, and Daniele, where are you from, Manchester? And then you get, conversation goes its usual way, United or City, United. I could tell he respected United. And he went to games. He wasn't like, yeah, I don't go to games. Yeah, I've been to Old Trafford twice. I'm sick of seeing my team lose at Old Trafford. And I really wish I'd got his number.

46:14I was off form that day because I liked him a lot similar age maybe and um so I could buy him a drink but I didn't I actually checked me uber receipt this other day to see if you can contact a taxi driver from from from June only you yeah only me that's how I am I'm looking forward to it like I will get in that game and I'll watch the youth game before it and the cliches of the champions league music and you will have a little bit of belief and an english team should be stronger than an italian team i watched roma lose the europa league final against severe a couple years ago i was in the stadium um kone was someone who was linked a little bit to united dibela was also linked to manchester united so there's loads of look what you could have won type players they've had some really turbulent times roma and lazio are at the moment they're city rivals I look forward to it but I'm worried I'm worried going into every Manchester United game the five percent of me is like can it be a turning point please we can't be this bad forever but unfortunately we're meeting them in their best run of form in modern history and isn't that wonderful fantastic um yeah where Danny Ellie's concerned no wonder he's sick of Roma playing at Old Trafford because they've played there four times in their history and lost all four times, including a 7-1 defeat in their first visit back in 2007, losing twice the following season with Manchester United en route to their last Champions League trophy and then also losing 6-2 in the Europa League in 2021 as well.

47:54We need to add to this, Laurie, don't we? We need something to ensure that we're talking about something else and the mood is something else. I'm not sure in some ways it will change that much, but at least it will make us feel better for 90 minutes watching Manchester United win again. Yeah, I'm just going to watch Roma getting beat 7-1 at Old Trafford where Michael Carrick was starring, scoring. Maybe he shows that to the players before the game. I suppose it can't really go to the well of United's history too much, although this is, I suppose, a bit more recent than perhaps some of the stuff he was referencing in the pre-Bournemouth.

48:28But yeah, I mean, I've got a bone to pick with Horny, actually. He didn't come back to me when I was in Como. I wanted some recommendations. I wanted to see him, you know, over there, a nice bit of pizza with him maybe. So yeah, but it was very kind of him to walk the streets of Milan whilst doing that in his sort of suave, sophisticated way. And help us understand that Roma are in a very good moment under Gasparini. you know we've um united faced them haven't they recently when united were managed by solskjaer and atalanta were in the group stage and had a great team with atalanta you know really impressive football i think that they played there and you know united a couple of couple of great games wasn't it wasn't it like a 3-2 late win at old trafford something like that or 2-2 away as well yeah ronaldo he's got a hat trick in that one or was that the villarreal one it was that season where the group stage was his, basically, wasn't it?

49:23I don't know if we'd have even won a game that season in the Champions League. Well, there we go. Yeah, we need someone to step up, don't we, really, from a United point of view and seize it. I do go back to it, and there were moments in that first half against Chelsea. I know, again, it's sort of small crumbs. I know you just need one to go in and see what happens, don't you? But then that happened at Leeds, I suppose, and we saw what happened. Yeah, well, that's it. It just feels as a fragility to this United team. So if you've got an opponent that is well organised and drilled and has got that edge to them, you just wonder at what point do they succumb to that pressure.

49:59Trying to keep a clean sheet is such a huge thing for United, given they're not scoring loads of goals. I think I saw, is it 10 goals United have scored in the Premier League this season and 15 conceded in the game so far? I think that's the goal record. Five of those goals were scored against Ipswich. so yeah you've got five goals in uh we've got nine nine games now united have played um so yeah five goals in eight games um so it and they went close didn't they i mean ahmad was brilliant i thought against for far out of the ball out of possession you know latching onto things that was the kind of energy and decisiveness you wanted to see from your players and and but it was just unfortunate or rushed finishing maybe.

50:41And Bumo's pass to Bruno was fantastic. And you could see as soon as that counter-attack was started, Carrick and all the coaching staff were up telling him to pass it to Bruno. And he actually took a bit more time than I thought, but then whipped it round brilliantly. And Bruno's then snatched it at the finish, the ball spinning. It's a hard one to do with his left foot, but you just sort of think in different confidence that then he takes a touch and finishes it calmly like Rodgers did. I mean, Rodgers' finish was just the absolute example of somebody confident and sure of what they were going to do, clear of mind.

51:13And it feels like United's players, because of the situation they're in, aren't in that mindset at the moment. Even Mbumo's strike in the second half was absolutely ferocious. And you're thinking, wow, that would be, okay, it's 10 men and it's probably a consolation. I think it's actually a great save. I saw it on replay this morning. It was a save. Yeah, Penel's got a fingertip to it. Yeah. and so I think that's why then I have to say again the away section at Samford Bridge was brilliant considering for example it's a London game, sometimes you don't always get that with London games, 12.30 kick off although I wonder if people had just thought sod it, we're getting down, we're enjoying ourselves early, you know I was on the 6.13 train myself and there was a few people on that but they sung loud I thought throughout the whole game, when they were 2-0 down they're singing the United Calypso and that felt like a defiant moment.

52:05And then they are, you know, when Carrick came across, they were applauding. I think there was maybe a smattering of booze a little bit with some of the players, but then ultimately it was, no, no, we're going to respond. We felt that you tried at least in this game. And Bruno in particular, we haven't really touched on Bruno coming back into the starting lineup, but I think he did. I know he wasn't great and he gave a ball away for the Esteval goal that then got disallowed. But I think he was certainly showing himself in that game and he seemed to be really taking it on board at the end, applauding the fans, looked emotional.

52:38And I think that hopefully then can feed into the game at Old Trafford where you've wiped away the Bournemouth reaction. I'm sure the fans will try and get behind him again, a Champions League night under the floodlights to start the game. What do you expect from Old Trafford, Laurie? I think they'll say, right, Bournemouth happened, let's move past that. We appreciate that ultimately everybody that goes into that stadium wants the best for Manchester United. And, okay, there's different ways of showing that. But I think in that moment at Bournemouth, it finally, something broke where they felt, we have to show how annoyed we are at this situation.

53:12And the players do deserve our anger in that respect. I think Chelsea then is a bit of a palate cleanser. And hopefully then that Lynn leads into the Old Trafford game where, because United's players will be better if they feel the support from the crowd. I'm not saying that they totally go. It's chicken and egg, isn't it? Yeah. They need to show something for the fans and then that'll respond and they can get on the same page. But you can move past this kind of thing, I would say. But that's when it then comes back to the ownership and the decisions that have been made where fans have felt that they've been victimised and kind of not wanted at the ground.

53:49That's how it then feeds into this situation with the Bournemouth where they didn't have the flags to differ for one of the games and the banner out. The way you treat is a disgrace. and so but again they can part that I think for this moment where they realize the kind of the greater need but that that's why it matters showing respect to fans and having the good grace to work with them over aspects of the club that then create that atmosphere and get that boost that the players will need at times what the atmosphere is going to be like on Tuesday is a really interesting point because normally I'd be rallying ahead of it but I think there's a lot of United fans are deeply frustrated and talking about protests.

54:29But Laurie's absolutely right. If the team start well, and it is chicken and egg, United fans are feeding on scraps at the moment. And if there was a thing called a goal, and a goal is when someone in red puts the ball past the goalkeeper into the net, and then the referee confirms it, and then they take the ball back to the centre spot, and then on the scoreboard it says one next to the name Manchester United well they actually had that didn't they for Cunha at Sanford Bridge and then this what happened there Andy at that point I went mad when that goal went in I bet you did United's bench did but it's pathetic isn't it it was deserved at that point wasn't it yeah it was and some of the playing you picked up on the cross from Bruno which flashed across the goal in front of Mbumo and Ahmad was giving for Farner a rough time and good good good great bring it on but you need you can tell it worked on that as well I think I think that in training, sort of down the sides, cutbacks, things like that.

55:27Yeah, and they were front foot as well. That was a notable difference at the start that they were pressing really high to begin with. The shape as well was a bit more what feels more like square pegs in square holes with it being a more familiar shape for the team. Obviously, Mbouma was the centre forward. Ahmad and Cunha in their natural positions. Bruno back in the tent. Uri Tielemann's on the bench. What do you think he does for this game, Laurie? I suppose the biggest decision actually is to start Lissandro Martinez. or not because he's not banned for this game he's banned for Aston Villa so does that give us a clue as to how everyone feels about the red card against Chelsea whether he starts this game yeah I thought you were gonna go to Andy after his expert description of what a goal is um which is nice to be reminded of you can have your say don't worry yeah okay I'll I'll I'll be quick I'll be quick then because I feel I feel like I have spoken a lot on this pod I I don't see how we can start Martinez I know it's a Champions League game but I just don't if you get sent off in that way I don't know man like maybe then you ultimately come back to well I need the win and he's but as we've seen from this list you know that you read out earlier that he's made mistakes so I know Heaven's made mistakes but you know does De Ligt come back in yeah just to kind of firm it up with that Champions League pedigree that he's got you play Yoram Maguire can't you yeah as a centre pairing play Darrell on the right Maserawi left or by miracle someone's back obviously we had Kaby Menu back off the bench he'll be pushing to start I think he's a liability I don't think he should start I think he's you look at when he went off in the Seville game and Sevilla's manager said he's Manchester United's best player that was his first big serious injury and Sevilla went through and they progressed all the way and they met Roma in in the final Martinez is so far from from being that player and I just worry that it causes another problem I think the fans have got to be up for it as well, Roma will be, they've got brilliant away support, they'll make an absolute din, they'll come to Old Trafford and it'll be humiliating if United fans aren't up for it as well, but United fans just need something, just does the goal just something, you know Manchester as a city was founded by the Romans in AD 79 and our present for founding our wonderful city should be to smash Roma off the park and send them back to Italy with a little Mancunian hospitality and yet another defeat at Old Trafford in European football.

57:54I feel like that's the most positive anyone has been on this podcast for quite some time. So let's leave it there. Let's hope somehow, someway, Tuesday is a different story and we've got some different topics to talk about on the next episode. Thank you for sticking with us this long. If you're still with us, Andy and Laurie, thank you so much as well for being here. And we'll be back after Roma, whatever happens. Take care. See you on the next one. Bye-bye.

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