LIVE: Man United expected to sack Michael Carrick as head coach

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2:06David Ornstein: The Athletic FC.

2:24David Ornstein: We are reacting to the news that Manchester United are expected to relieve Michael Carrick of his duties as the head coach. That is the news broken just now on The Athletic by Laurie Whitwell, David Ornstein and Adam Crafton as well. This is Talk The Devils. We are live on YouTube and The Athletic app as well. Welcome along everyone who has joined us at this late hour on Monday. Thank you for delaying your bedtime. Stew in the comments already on YouTube has said this is later than a Manchester United comeback. So my apologies for that. But obviously it is a huge piece of breaking news that we wanted to discuss and bring you everything that we know on it.

3:02David Ornstein: Get involved in the comments. Let us know. Andy, Laurie and Keris are all here to chat through this over the next half hour or so. So let's get into it. Laurie, what do you know? What's happening?

3:13Laurie Whitwell: Yes, so the story that we've just published on The Athletic is that the expectation is that Manchester United will part ways with Michael Carrick. It's development that has been strengthened as the day goes on. Now, United insists that there's been no final decision taken. And obviously, it would require Sir Jim Ratcliffe, the Glazers, to ratify the call. Ratcliffe is across this matter. But the information that we have based on what we think is very good sourcing is that United intend to relieve Michael Carrick of his duties and work is being done on potential successors as well.

3:53David Ornstein: OK, so as we speak now, United and Andy are insisting that no decision has yet been made on Michael Carrick's future. What do you think has been happening across today? Because we live streamed only yesterday on Talk the Devils on YouTube and the Athletic app. And at that moment, there was no information that this decision was done. I think that journalists have spoken to sources today to try and stand this up. I think it is still a moving story. I think it's highly probable that Michael Carrick will be relieved of his position. I think he will be told that his position will be...

4:42I'm not even sure right now speaking that Michael Carrick has been told that he's going to lose his job. I think he'll be told that no final decision has been made. But if you ask me now if I think Michael Carrick will lose his job, then I think he will lose his job.

4:57David Ornstein: OK, so the suggestion is that a new manager will be in place in time for the Liverpool away game, Laurie, the next time that they play in the Premier League at Anfield, 13 days' time. But there's still a bit to sort out by the sound of it then from what Andy and yourself has just said.

5:14Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, because, I mean, we spoke, didn't we, on the live stream after the game last night, where I perhaps was a little bit strong in suggesting that it was not necessarily likely an outcome that Carrick would lose his job. But I was speaking in the immediate aftermath in thinking that that was the temperature I was feeling at that time in terms of an immediate decision. And clearly there's still, I guess, the day tomorrow, there's been today that we've had where nothing has actually been confirmed, announced. And even as we speak now, obviously United are still saying that nothing is set in stone.

5:50Laurie Whitwell: But yeah, I feel that there's clearly going to be talks with Michael Carrick. I mean, I think he's due to take training tomorrow, or at least that was the plan. So he will be in at Carrington as things stand. And so you'd expect that there would be talks to that end. And let's see what comes out of that, because obviously it's then another step again to have somebody else in place for the game against Liverpool, which is two weeks away. But clearly that's still a time that United need to be working quickly to sort. And I suppose we go back to the day after Bournemouth where it was clearly something was rumbling along and there was a lack of clarity, even up until midday on the Tuesday, when Carrick had been in and out of Carrington to watch that 21s game and then was turning up to Carrington to take training.

6:48Laurie Whitwell: It's sort of this vacuum almost of kind of official information. I don't think serves too well, to be honest. But then United were saying we want to give them a chance to turn things around. And then ultimately, from speaking to sources, that was clearly the fact of these three games. So the Chelsea won, the Roma won and then the Aston Villa won and then they would take stock again. Now, do you say that where United are now is a turnaround of form? It's hard to say, isn't it? A win against Roma was dramatic and was captivating. The Villa game was brilliant in moments and terrible in others. And obviously the Chelsea game started well, but ultimately it was a loss.

7:30Laurie Whitwell: And United are now in the relegation places going into the November international break. So I don't think you could say that's a turnaround of form. So if that's the kind of gauge that United were putting on, that sort of respite for Tarrick, then you can understand why this decision has been made. But obviously we can debate it and we can certainly scrutinise what then even comes from this point. Because, yeah, there's contenders we've been spoken about already in terms of who could come in. But let's see what United actually do, because I don't think, as we all say, we all know, the problems, the issues at the club are far wider than Michael Carrick or any head coach.

8:09David Ornstein: Yeah, they are. And obviously we'll get into that over the course of this international break. This won't be the last time that we talk about the situation at United, who's making the decisions and even the decisions themselves. Kerry, obviously we were all at the game against Aston Villa. We all were in the studio 24 hours ago, whatever it was, as we were finishing off the pizza, turning the lights off in the office to go home. It didn't feel like this was coming, judging by Michael Carrick's demeanour and the way that he took on some of the questions in the press conference we were in or even some of the interviews after the game.

8:46David Ornstein: But the cold, hard fact that Manchester United are in the relegation zone. They have won one of their opening 10 Premier League matches. it's difficult to get past that isn't it?

8:56Laurie Whitwell: Yeah I think that's ultimately what it comes down to for me perhaps in the immediate aftermath of scoring two goals and a bit of a comeback and the players have shown some fight the head coach is showing some fight and then you cool down a little bit and you look at the league table and you look at the run of results and there's just no getting around it if Michael Carrick's to be relieved of his duties I really feel for him. I don't think there will be many Manchester United fans who hold ill will towards him at all, but he's said multiple times how he takes responsibility for the performances of the team, the results of the team, the buck stops with him, and it hasn't been good enough.

9:39Laurie Whitwell: He's not far from the only problem at the club, but the information seems to be that they've lost faith that he can be the solution.

9:47David Ornstein: Yeah, that is how it feels, certainly. And like we sort of talked about Andy on the show yesterday, this idea that something needs to change and there won't be a unanimous support for this call to relieve Michael Carrick of his duties, but there will be sort of unanimous support for action being taken by someone at the club to try and sort out what's going on. We were speculating about the lack of urgency maybe that we were feeling yesterday, but obviously this changes things. Yeah, it's unsustainable. It's one win in 10 games. I think we were saying that, that something needs to change. And unfortunately, the manager is usually the thing that needs to change.

10:31There was a poll on United We Stand today. Would you change Michael Carrick now? I didn't post that. I just saw someone posting it and 79 % said yes. Yes, they would change him. So I thought that was quite interesting. there is clearly a lot of support for Michael Carrick but that support isn't to signify that fans want him to continue as manager I think it's really important to differentiate between those points I think it's support for him as a person I think there's a realisation that it's a very difficult job and if he does go and someone else comes in it would be very difficult for that person as well and he becomes the fall guy here but when you win one of your opening 10 Premier League games Some of that is on the manager and his staff as well.

11:15It just is. Football managers around the world are judged by their results. And Manchester United are in the relegation zone. It's been a horror start to the season. There's mitigation throughout. You can talk about VAR decisions. You can talk about sending off mistakes, whatever, whatever. The bottom line is Manchester United are 10th. And if this doesn't change, Manchester United are going down. Before this news started to come through, I'm writing a piece comparing this season to Manchester United's relegation season. and looking for different parallels, what can be learned from the relegation season.

11:49So I think most Manchester United fans will accept the merit in this decision. I think they will also be very critical, as they have been, of the ownership of the decision makers, of the people above Michael Carrick, and the players as well. My understanding was that after the Bournemouth game, the players came forward and said, we deserve a chance to get out of this. We think we can do this. Just give us a chance. And there has been some evidence that first half at Chelsea, the second half against Roma, the bits after Aston Villa had scored at Old Trafford. But Manchester United are still, have slipped into a relegation zone since that point.

12:34So I don't think that Michael Carrick has lost all the players. I think the players have been quite explicit in saying, no, we want another chance at this, but this cannot carry on. And yeah, I'm sure we're all getting loads of messages coming in now from various sources, and I am as well. And I think there'll be a lot of sympathy for Michael Carrick. I think he's a very popular figure, legendary player, obviously, but don't confuse the two points.

13:04David Ornstein: Yeah, yeah, there is a lot of respect for him, unquestionably. Even looking across the comments as well, Welcome along, by the way, if you're just joining us. This is Talk the Devils. We are live on YouTube and also the Athletic app. Thank you for joining us, reacting to the news that Michael Carrick is expected to be relieved of his duties as the head coach of Manchester United. Lots of you getting involved in the comments. Thank you, every single one of you, for joining us at this late hour to react to this news. Irish Colley says, keep Carrick as a coach, but we need a head coach manager to lead these players.

13:36David Ornstein: Liam says, we've conceded 30 goals already. He should have been gone at the latest a month ago. Martin says, this is horrible. They needed to give him a chance and back in. How on earth do you have the brass given how bad they are at their jobs? Get them out. I presume he's referring to the people above Michael Carrick on that. Martin says, we've lost faith in them. Northern Ben, it's nonsense. How can you sack someone because the squad is too thin and the players got injured? There's lots of different opinions. It sort of sums up the way everyone feels at the minute, Laurie, to be honest, that it's not just Michael Carrick to blame, clearly, for Manchester United's problems, but it looks like he is the one at the moment who is going to pay with his job.

14:16David Ornstein: Yeah, it's two weeks, obviously, like we say, to the next game against Liverpool. Obviously, if you're going to appoint someone new, there's details to work out. There's a process to go through. There's a lot of work to be done, isn't there? I mean, that's before you even begin to sort of start talking about exactly what needs to be happening on the training field. new coaching staff maybe. There is so much to sort out. And even in a two-week break over an international period, there's still a lot of work to be done, isn't there?

14:44Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which, I mean, is probably why when you reflect on it, and probably the suspicion at the time was the international break presented this kind of window. Although there are complications, I mean, where we can touch on it. So, for example... Let's do it, Larry, yeah. We've teased them enough, I think. I mean, so today it has emerged. And I'd had a message about this perhaps last week where the name Mauricio Pochettino was mentioned. And he hadn't really featured in my thoughts before that point. Well, not my thoughts. That's not really what matters. But in terms of the information that was being told about at that stage.

15:24Laurie Whitwell: Anyway, so yeah, Pochettino's name emerged. And then today, certainly more traction, I think, from people that have been speaking to sort of mentioning his name. and so I mean you can see it now in the bookies odds as well can't you think he's gone to be the favourite which okay fine Eddie Howe was the favourite a little bit ago so they're not always correct the bookies but there's sometimes no smoke without fire but the main thing is that people that you speak to and that you trust and yeah so Pochettino is a name that I think will feature you know fairly highly in United's considerations but he's currently the USA head coach they've got two matches.

16:00Laurie Whitwell: He's due to have two games this week isn't he? Against Haider, yeah. Well, I think one's next week as well. I think it's Wednesday, a week on Wednesday. So, you know, the Liverpool game on Sunday.

16:10David Ornstein: That complicates it even more, doesn't it?

16:11Laurie Whitwell: Yeah. I mean, obviously, we had this Ruben Amaran, didn't we, where he didn't want to start straight away. He didn't want to come mid-season. Then, in the end, there was a negotiation and it was basically four games you can have as sporting head coach still, and then you can come. And I suppose that gave a bit of breathing room, didn't it? You had Ruben Nistroi as the caretaker to a successful degree in that little spell. I just don't know. I mean, listen, I guess a lot of United players are out on international duty themselves. So is there loads of players to work with, even if you were installed right now?

16:43Laurie Whitwell: I mean, speaking to people, they would perhaps be surprised if Pochettino left USA right now, like before these two games. I believe there's a clause that would allow that. But again, it's money involved. So, you know, United have been suggesting that finances are tight, but can they, would they find money in this scenario? So, yeah, and it would be, I mean, Pochettino has been somebody that United have been linked with for years. You can kind of go all the way back to 2016. The dinner with Alex Ferguson ultimately went a different way, went to Jose Mourinho. Then certainly down to the last two with Eric Ten Hag.

17:27Laurie Whitwell: then even I think when it was Chelsea boss United lucked again in that sort of time around the FA Cup final so it's been a sort of consistent drumbeat and so yeah I mean I was away in LA during the World Cup and I was in his post-match press conference after the Turkey game where they'd lost 3-2 to Turkey even though they won the first two games of that group so they lost the final one and kind of a lot of the questions were sort of more scrutinising him and sort of asking him whether this was a difficult moment ahead of the knockout phase was a bad decision I think he rotated quite a few players and and he gave a press conference that was uh very kind of captivating in his own way uh basically saying you know you should give me more credit for what I've done here you know you know the United States have kind of qualified easily you know no one thought that was possible beforehand um and so it's quite you know he was having himself should we say um and so you wonder we've sort of flicked between this haven't we with Eric Sen Haag's personality to Ruben Amrin's personality to Michael Carrick's personality, although he's showing it more, I think, in recent weeks.

18:32Laurie Whitwell: Now, to Pochettino's potential, you know, in terms of when we're talking about possible successes, the charisma that he's got. But, yeah, it would be an interesting moment if United did end up appointing him because it's been such a long time and you sort of wonder where he's at in terms of his management sort of career, if he's still got that hunger. He's still only 54, though. So he's still fairly young in imagerial terms. So, yeah, let's see.

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21:27David Ornstein: Yeah, he's been in charge of the US men's national team since 2024. That was also the season that he had at Chelsea when he was last in the Premier League, 23-24. Obviously had the spell at PSG. Before that, Spurs and Southampton. Probably the Spurs job, Keris, is the most notable thing that he's done in English football. and the five years he had there, taking them to the Champions League final. During his time at PSG, he won the league, he also won the cup as well. So, you know, there's top level experience there. There's a lot of experience and know-how. Different clubs, different countries, he'll have language skills, I'm sure, as well as a result of that.

22:05David Ornstein: What sort of an appointment would he be, in your opinion, if United were to go there?

22:10Laurie Whitwell: I mean, a surprise one, first and foremost, which sounds weird to say because of sort of the history that Laurie's just mentioned.

22:16David Ornstein: Yeah, he's only been linked for 12 years, hasn't he?

22:18Laurie Whitwell: Well, yeah, which is almost why it's, I mean, nothing should surprise you about Manchester United anymore, but coming back to someone you first linked with so long ago is kind of incredible. But also, you know, he, I believe, got a new contract with the US men's national team after this World Cup. So I would be extraordinarily surprised if he came cheap. So I imagine, I don't say this based on knowledge, based on the fact that he's only very recently agreed a new contract, I would imagine he'd be a very expensive appointment. In terms of his fit for United, I mean, I'm sure we'll look at this on The Athletic in the coming days, but my initial reaction, someone with a lot of experience, someone who's worked in, as you say, in a lot of different environments with a lot of different languages will have maybe that sort of CV that might command players respect a little bit more.

23:07Laurie Whitwell: But there is also concerns, I would say, off the top of my head over sort of like the aggressive style that he would want to bring how sustainable would that be with United's squad so he would be he would certainly be a big name and I think maybe someone that fans would be more excited about than perhaps I don't know off the top of my head Eddie Howe or Julian Nagelsmann but I think as with basically any candidate that you can link to United there are straight away kind of tactical issues that you can you can pick out and you can be a bit uncertain about as well as obviously and Laurie's touched on this and his reporting throughout the financial issues associated with changing a manager mid-season.

23:47Andy what do you think? One contact's just told me that Ken Griffin is a billionaire hedge fund manager who's played a central role in financing the US men's national football team and obviously the head coach Mauricio Pochettino that contact said he's very close to the Glazers so we're getting all this type of information coming in. Pochettino first watched him as a player for Espanyol, watched his Espanyol team a lot. They were a very attacking team. He did very well there. That's why he got the move to England first at Southampton. I remember a friend of mine, Manolo Marquez, a Catalan coach, going to see him at Southampton and telling me a little story that Poch had dressed up in a suit because he was told that Tottenham Hotspur were looking at him and then he did very well at Tottenham.

24:36He took Tottenham to a Champions League final. I was there in Madrid in 2019, which I can't remember who won that game. And I obviously went to PSG and to Chelsea. So he does have the experience. His football is attacking, it's high pressing. Often the formation is the 4-2-3-1. I think his credibility as a manager is absolutely there. and as Laurie said, he's only 54, I think, and he's absolutely having himself. That has been a mark of him as a player and also as a manager as well. I don't have any evidence that he's coming to join Manchester United and as Laurie quite rightly said, he's contracted to the US men's national football team but Manchester United has been a job that he's absolutely been into the idea of for a long, long time.

25:31so you just need to join the dots here. I think it is a name which would win broad approval among Manchester United fans as someone who knows the Premier League, used to working with high-level players. He's got a very good track record and that's my thoughts on that.

25:50David Ornstein: Yeah, okay. I mean, in the comments, there's support for Sean Dyche and Big Sam and perhaps more seriously, Eddie Howe is being mentioned, Mauricio Pochettino, a pretty popular choice Antonio Conte continually is a name brought up, Laurie, too. But it's Julian Nagelsmann and Eddie Howe, maybe, who seem to be from the story that you've contributed to with David and also Adam, who seem to be the alternatives potentially to Mauricio Pochettino at this moment right now. And I have to say, it's just gone 11pm on Monday evening and this is a fast-moving situation. So this is the very latest as we know it.

26:26David Ornstein: We will have another Talk the Devils coming to you, at least one later on in the week where we'll know a bit more and things will have settled down a little bit. But as we have it now, Pochettino, Howe, Nagelsmann, are they the three maybe?

26:39Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, I mean, I think the Eddie Howe and Julian Nagelsmann links have been kind of pretty consistent really. And in terms of, I think United would understand, know their, I guess, willingness or what it would take perhaps to bring them to the club. And yeah, there's different aspects around that, I suppose. Yeah, I'm kind of reluctant to go hard in any particular direction. I know we've spoken about Pochettino quite a bit there, but I think that's a fair thing to kind of get into, given these a sort of fresher name that we haven't perhaps got into.

27:12David Ornstein: We've not talked about him much, have we, in fairness? No. We did have a few people in the stream yesterday asking us about him. Yeah. So maybe we should have talked about it then in some ways, but yeah, we're doing it now.

27:22Laurie Whitwell: There's a lot to get into. And I think you have to understand Ratcliffe's, I don't know if you can underestimate his perhaps involvement in this. He will ratify, as we say, and the Glazers, I think Andy's absolutely right to mention them as well. But from what I can gather, I do think Ratcliffe is alert and across this matter. And as we've seen, he can be a difficult person to predict at times. So, yeah, I mean, if you look at what United need, So Eddie Howe, I think, he's obviously taken a team in Newcastle from those positions and raised them up to a respectable part of the table in the season that he took over and then got them into the Champions League.

28:07Laurie Whitwell: He obviously got Bournemouth promoted, did brilliantly there. Does he have that kind of, and this really shouldn't be the thing that you're kind of basing it on, but does he have the cachet to kind of enliven the fans? I suppose it's a little bit of a factor, really, that should be given heed to because of the way that Carrick has been embraced. And as we said yesterday, it's not necessarily that people are saying he should be the manager, whatever. I think probably some people think that. But I think it's also the fact that he's that one person that you can cling to and say he did good things for us as a club and we can get behind him from obviously his playing days and the way he's handled himself, absolutely.

28:44Laurie Whitwell: And that's something we can perhaps discuss later on this week as well. But yeah, so I kind of, you're sort of thinking about the fans in this and Hotch probably has a bit more of that cachet. Nagelsmann would be a bit of a gamble because he's not managed in the Premier League before. Obviously, Conte has won the Premier League. Clearly, he would be a kind of combative, tell people how it is kind of vibe. You know, it would be, I guess, enthralling for us probably to be a part of and close to. maybe that would raise the levels, but equally, you know, it feels a bit combustible. So, whereas I think Pochettino, from what I can tell, you know, he obviously had that issue with Chelsea at the end of his time there, where they obviously decided to part terms sort of mutually.

29:31Laurie Whitwell: But I think he's a pretty reasonable guy from what I can tell. All told, obviously, he worked under Daniel Levy for a long time, where the money, I mean, I remember speaking to people around the 2018-19 season, and they felt that he was really let down that summer for not getting backed when they'd done really good work with Tottenham and that was kind of the start of the end really from their perspective. So yeah, as I say, let's see how it all develops but there's clearly perhaps not a candidate where you go, yeah, absolutely go and get that person. It sort of shows the difficulty that United are currently in and the whole landscape of the club really.

30:06David Ornstein: Yeah, unquestionably. I mean, there's a few people commenting on how this just feels like we've been here before so many times over the course of the last 13 years. as Anthony says, ground dog day. Chris says, we're back on the roundabout again, are we? And obviously this will lead to more questions about who exactly is making this decision, Andy. Who are the ones, Jason Wilcox, Omar Barada, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, the Glazers, you know, there's unquestionably going to be more scrutiny on them considering this is the third time now in three years, in three autumns, that Manchester United have changed the manager.

30:40I don't think any decision gets made without all of those people who you've just mentioned. I think they all have an input into that. Is that ideal? No, it's not. But I think that is the reality of it. Who ultimately has the say, do you think? Who is the boss, full stop, basically? Or is there not one? I cannot say for certain that one person goes, right, this is it. I think that Jim Ratcliffe has been very important. and if you push me to name one over somebody else, I would lean towards him and his influence. But I think that the Glazers absolutely will be consulted throughout and then you've got input from Jason Wilcox and from Omar Barada and yet it does feel like Groundhog Day.

31:29It does feel like we've seen this film so many times before and what happens next is the new manager comes in. Hopefully, because we really need this, there is an uptick in form. Then you'll get the stories about chips being banned in training and all that nonsense, the mood being picked up. The main thing is that Manchester United start winning matches. I think if it is to be Pochettino, then as I said in the last question, I think it would broadly be welcomed. I know he's in the US at the moment. His family home has long been in Barcelona from his time at Espanyol, both as a player and as a manager.

32:08And he's a highly credible figure. Who else do you go for? You've mentioned some of those names. Some don't have the Premier League experience. So I think it would win favour. And a lot of United fans will be like, bring it on and bring it on quickly. Because this has been a nightmare start to the season, right from the off. I'm stunned at how bad it has been. And even watching that Villa game, I know it was exciting, I know there were lots of goals, but I'm just watching the team through my fingers and thinking Manchester United tactically are so easy to be got at. Teams are scoring a lot of goals.

32:46United's defence, there's a lot of injuries there. Imagine if an Argentinian Pochettino comes in, makes Lissandro Martinez his captain, gives him a 15-year contract. That's just how my brain's working at the moment. We don't even know that he's going to be coming in. But it looks highly likely that there will be a change. I've got sympathy for every outgoing manager of Manchester United that things haven't worked out and didn't work out. And if Michael Carrick goes, I'd feel exactly the same for that. Be thankful for the job that he did when he came in because he did steady the ship. He did get the team into the Champions League position.

33:22He did very, very well, but he's not done well this season. It has been an absolute horror show.

33:29David Ornstein: OK, just last couple of questions then before we finish the stream. and thank you again for everyone joining us on YouTube, on the Athletic app as well. Remember, get yourself subscribed to Talk to the Devils on YouTube. Turn your notifications on so when we do go live, like tonight, you will be the first to know about it. We are expected to do another show on Thursday on Talk to the Devils, but of course, if there's any breaking news, any changes to react to between now and then, we will be going live again. Kerry, it's a big question. It's probably one I shouldn't have left right to the end and it's probably going to be one that we'll reflect on a bit more in the future.

34:06David Ornstein: But how is this reign of Michael Carrick going to be remembered and what can the club learn from what's happened as well?

34:16Laurie Whitwell: I think it will be remembered as predominantly what we have seen from the fan base as something that went wrong in ways that were not entirely, I would argue, but some would argue perhaps not mostly Michael Carrick's fault. I think he'll be remembered for the moments from last season. I think it's quite easy to forget how low things could feel under Ruben Amrim and how he picked that up. United looked a very, very long way off the Champions League team at times and he restored that confidence. He made it enjoyable to watch Manchester United again And I think that is something that really needs to be remembered.

35:01Laurie Whitwell: He then made it partly his fault, an absolute nightmare to watch Manchester United week in, week out this season. And that'll be remembered as well. So it'll be a very mixed bag. But I think his legacy at Manchester United and among its supporters will probably continue to be a positive one. I think the number one thing that you cannot question is that he has given his absolute all. and I'm not saying that was enough. It's not been enough and it's not been good enough and I think this is probably an inevitable decision if this is the one that's made and the right decision as well. But I don't think you can question his application as to what United learn from it.

35:40Laurie Whitwell: I mean, that's the ultimate question, isn't it? When the dust settles sort of in the dugout and even before that happens, people will be looking at whether there are consequences for those above who've made these three consecutive now mid-season changes, autumn changes. We're supposed to be best in class. We're supposed to have a clear footballing identity from Ineos. And I think it's really hard to pin down exactly what that is. So what they learn from it is probably that they need to change something pretty sharpish in terms of how these decisions are being made.

36:19David Ornstein: OK, just to reiterate then, we are reacting to the breaking news that Laurie has worked on with David Ornstein and Adam Crafton tonight that Manchester United are expected to relieve Michael Carrick of his duties as the head coach. As we talk now, United are insisting that no final decision has yet been made or communicated. So how do you see the next few hours, days playing out then, Laurie?

36:44Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, well, obviously Carrick is due back in at Carrington tomorrow. So, yeah, let's see how that looks. there's a few other elements that have perhaps behind the scenes that would need sort of clarifying in terms of exactly what happens so I'm being a bit vague there but hopefully it comes out a bit more clearly it's a moving situation isn't it it's a moving situation I do echo Keris's point there though I know we've sort of mentioned this on multiple podcasts but to change a manager for a third season in a row you have to then ask questions scrutinize big time the people that are making those kind of calls.

37:23Laurie Whitwell: So, you know, all the way up to the Glazers, Jim Ratcliffe, Omar Barada, Jason Wilcox, you know, this kind of game model idea passed down from top to bottom. It hasn't come to pass, has it? And so I think then there is obviously going to be scrutiny on everybody, including the executives. What that then shapes out as in the next few days, I don't know. but equally I think it does mean that there has to be a consistent analysis of what's been going on because it clearly feels like United are jumping from one thing to the next.

38:01David Ornstein: Okay, let's leave it there then for the live stream tonight. Thank you again, every single one of you for joining us. We do appreciate it. Andy, Laurie, Kerris, thank you as well for joining us at this hour. Remember, if you're not subscribed on YouTube, get yourself subscribed. Turn the notifications on as well. So when we do go live with news like this, you'll be the first ones to know about it. We are expected to do another Talk the Devils on Thursday. Obviously, a lot can happen between now and then. So keep your eyes on The Athletic for the very latest coverage on what's happening with Michael Carrick, with Manchester United as well.

38:36David Ornstein: And we will see you on the next Talk the Devils. Thank you again for your company. Take care. Night-night.

39:05David Ornstein: The Athletic FC.

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