Michael Carrick sacked... Pochettino in waiting

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1:25The Athletic FC.

1:42This is Talk The Devils. We are live once again on YouTube and also on the Athletic app. And we are here today to react to the news that Michael Carrick has now been confirmed his sacking from Manchester United. We're going to talk about the decision, how it's been made, the time it's taken this week, all the different aspects that have gone into it. Also give you an update, of course, with Mauricio Pochettino inbound at Old Trafford as well, but maybe not quite yet. We'll come to that, obviously, a little bit later on. Welcome along. Thank you for joining us on the live stream. We've done this now, what, is this the fourth time in the last five days?

2:16I feel like we've been permanently live streaming in some ways. It's been one of those weeks for Manchester United. Get involved in the comments. I'll feed in as many of them as I possibly can do. Remember, get yourselves subscribed to the channel when we go live. If you've got those notifications on, you'll be the first ones to know about it. Apart from Laurie and Andy, of course, they're here already here in the studio to speak about everything that's gone on. Right, let's just get straight into it, I think. First and foremost, the news that you actually broke, I think, Andy, with your tweet at half past nine this morning.

2:47Michael Carrick has been officially sacked by Manchester United. What's your reaction? Sad. Sad that it's come to this. I had higher hopes that things would be different under Michael Carrick. I would never celebrate anybody losing the job. It's not just Michael Carrick. There'll be people around him as well. I know him on a personal level. I respect him as a fantastic human being. And I think he did very well last season to get Manchester United into the Champions League. and I've seen this film so many times before. I've seen other managers lose the job. It is an unhappy day. In some ways, the pressure is released because I'm sure Michael Carrick has absolutely known what's been going on around him.

3:33That's not good on a human level. It's not good for his family. It's not good for your mental health. And it's been a tough time. For everyone at Manchester United, one win in ten is the reason why Michael Carrick has lost his job. I don't think anyone saw this coming either. I just wish him well. I think he can go with his head held high. Just sad. And then there's a little bit of me as a Manchester United fan thinking, okay, will there be a brighter future with the next man? But maybe that's a conversation for tomorrow. Yeah, okay. There's a lot to unpack with this decision, Laurie. Obviously, the very fact that we were streaming several days ago about Manchester United having made their minds up that they were looking for a change of manager ahead of the Liverpool game after the international break.

4:22The fact that we were streaming yesterday that Mauricio Pochettino sounded like the choice for Manchester United. Doesn't feel great, does it? No, I mean, as Andy was just speaking there, it's almost like you ever have it in school when your mates would talk about you and you were like, what are they saying? You could kind of get a whisper of what was going on, but no one was actually telling you direct. And it kind of feels like, you know, you kind of, well, from Michael Cowick's position, left in the dark. Now, obviously, he knows what's going on. He's been in this industry a long time. And quite a few people that I've spoken to would say is big enough.

4:56You know, it's part of football that you have these kind of situations arise. Like, you know, if United were to dismiss him straight away, that kind of complicates maybe their pursuit of who they want to bring in. They're trying to get their ducks in a row. it's on one level being uh you know kind of proactive or at least what you think clubs would do in this situation but really when it comes down to it i think there needs to be more class around the situation and for him to be taking training two days in a row while everybody's reporting what's going on and that's because obviously journalists have you know found out the story but also there's a reason why journalists find out stories you know obviously i would say that we're good at our jobs, hopefully.

5:39If you do say so, you say it. Yeah, exactly. If I do say so myself. And obviously, I mean, so for example, Jamie Jackson, as David mentioned, David Ornstein mentioned the other day, was the first, I would say, to say that, you know, United are leaning in this direction. And then obviously, it was kind of followed up. We did our work as well. But it's out then and there's a reason for that. And then, so I think that United either had to be quick with it on Monday and then proceed as they were going to anyway or keep it so tight that it just doesn't come out. And then you can still maybe come to it.

6:09There'd still be questions. There'd still be people asking, banging on the door over these couple of days. And there still might be some speculation. And also it's Manchester United. So it's not like a club where you could have this happen and there wouldn't be as many people asking the question. And you could probably keep it secret, keep it hidden. But you've got a guy there who has done what he's done as a player for United, has now served the club, I would say, very diligently as head coach. which you can't forget, he's the reason, in my opinion, that United are in the Champions League, earning the money that they're earning, with Kobi Mayenu's value enhanced to the degree it is.

6:44So from the bottom line, which is kind of what Ineos have been all about since they've come in, he has raised the level. And so to treat him in this way, where you're not going direct to him and telling him what's going on, whilst they've got to go to Monaco for this Ineos CEO's day that is in the diary because of Sir Jim Ratcliffe, it feels the wrong way around for football clubs to operate. And I think then, again, is another point at which you can question the leadership and the way things have been done. We've explained on the show this week that the CEO meeting, the INEOS CEO meeting was prearranged in Monaco.

7:18But you have to think that if United were deciding that they were going to take this course of action, and if the decision had already been made even before that meeting was taking place, surely there should be or there could be some allowance from the organisation to say, right, the decision's made, communicate it, then come to Monaco. Can you not do that? Yeah, that would be my opinion. But obviously it gives you a window into how the club operates because you've got Ratcliffe at the top who has his own idiosyncrasies, obviously this day being one of them, wanting to hear about updates from United figures about stuff besides the football, for example.

7:58So it's like kind of business-related issues, I would say. And then you've also got the Glazers, who are over in America. So they're on a delay time-wise sometimes. Just the fact that none of this is in Manchester either. Just the fact that no one's coming here to tell him what they've decided just doesn't sit fantastically well, does it? Well, they have now, obviously. So it's Omar Barada at Carrington this morning, face-to-face Thursday. Yeah, Thursday. And I know doing it face-to-face is important. I think that aspect is definitely important. and that's the respect that Michael Carrick deserves.

8:33Whatever's happened on the pitch this season with his team, he's been an incredible servant to the club as a player, obviously did a fantastic job as a caretaker, as a coach in the past too. It's gone wrong this year, clearly, but the way he's conducted himself, you can't really question. No, and he's kept things in-house, so a lot of people have criticised him for that, for not unleashing like Ruben Amarin did or Ralph Ragnick did, but that's because I think of the respect he has for the club not to diminish the atmosphere around. If he started saying what he really thought about everything it would only, I think, harm the club.

9:09So he's kind of been that statesman-like figure. Again, you can dispute whether or not he's then been good at the job because of where United are in the relegation places. And so I don't think you can have a... Listen, there's one view where you'd say and I'm going to get Pelters for this again because I got Pelters the other day about making the Mikel Arteta comparison, for example. I'm not saying that he's that manager. We don't know. But I'm just saying their records from when they first went in are very similar, the same in terms of the actual wins and losses and what have you. So you could take a long-term view and go, this is short-term pain that we're having right now, but he's a guy that we have faith in.

9:44I know there's not exactly a huge CV to back that up, but as I say, there wasn't with Arteta, for example. And so we can ride through this. That would be one perception. Now, I also understand absolutely that you could go, there's no way United should be anywhere near the relegation places and therefore the head coach has to change and it doesn't feel like it's getting better. I think there's maybe been some signs, you know, first half at Chelsea, the comeback against Roma, but ultimately that is not acceptable. So I think you can understand where they're coming from in that regard, but you've got to be clinical, you've got to be professional about it and it doesn't feel like, it feels fragmentic, it feels messy.

10:22How do you think this has been handled by the leadership? I think it's always messy, usually always messy, when a manager leaves a football club. Does this not feel messier than it needed to be? Yes, it does. And unfortunately, the managers are often the last to know. And that's wrong that it's like that. I remember a phone call from a Glaswegian football manager managing a La Liga team who may have worked at Manchester United or not saying, what are you hearing? Weird. To say to my wife, what am I supposed to say here? and Michael Carrick has largely been kept in the dark, which is not a good thing from Manchester United's perspective.

11:04They've got to line up a replacement, whether that is Alex Ferguson to replace Ron Atkinson. I spoke to Ron Atkinson. How do you think he felt on the day he lost his job? Horrendous. It's a horrible, horrible day when you lose your job, and people handle it in different ways. Oli Gunnar Solskjaer did a video, for example, I'd be very surprised if Michael Carrick did a video. I think the story has escaped Manchester United. It shouldn't, should it? No, it shouldn't. And you can agree or disagree. This is my way of seeing it. As Loris says, that meeting was always planned in Monaco. So that shows where the power is.

11:46It sits in Monaco with references to the Glazers are obviously consulted as well. and I think on Monday journalists have got wind and journalists have done their job and followed up leads and the story has grown legs and once that story is out and the Athletic had it on Monday evening but as David Ornstein said on our last one of our last of many recent live streams It was the last live stream You know David was on to stuff and David's the best in the business at nine o 'clock on Monday morning so where does that come from? Not necessarily from the club who talks agents talk football people talk there's a huge amount of assumption as well people come to me all the time well what about this and they're actually looking for your endorsement or for you to stand something up and it's a dirty industry as well and lori made reference a couple of times michael knows the industry and it's full of people doing others down that's what football's like i'm not having him as a coach you work in it is that fair you know it's just full of that well just really quickly but obviously we're talking about potential successes to carry it before this point everyone's had their different opinions on whoever it is every single one somebody will say oh he's past it or he's no good he's not at the level that you need it.

12:59Do you know what there's more focus on why they shouldn't manage Manchester United than why they should and we'll talk about Pochettino a lot more. And he's not perfect but Pochettino we can pick positives and negatives and we'll do that in great detail But things have definitely changed over the years where I think we've become so weary by all this churn and change that it's impossible not to be cynical about it all in a way really and about the new people coming in and you know once upon a time you'd be sold a brilliant vision of what was coming for United but because of the fact that not everything is changing it's just a head coach changing and the people around him above him below him are the same then it makes it very difficult to think that there's this bright future ahead because we've just seen time and time again that it's come back to this point again Yeah we keep seeing the same film you used the word cynical that I think cynicism is corrosive.

13:51I think it's good to be sceptical, but unfortunately we've got to the point where people are cynical. Michael Carrick has grafted to the best of his ability since he took that job in January. And yeah, he'll get a payoff, but it's not about numbers and money, in my opinion. And I don't think he's particularly driven by the money side of things either. And he's covered for other people. he could have thrown players officials people above him under the bus he chose not to and that is to his credit he has kept his dignity there's been times where he's absolutely hammered those players in the dressing room and he's come out and faced the media and there is no evidence of that and i'm like well our job is to find out the truth all the time isn't it and journalists have been smelling stuff and going this isn't all right and he's been calm he's been collected he's been a credit to himself and his family I know his family and his wife are a huge deal in supporting him as well he's stayed true to himself he's stayed true to himself yeah and even even with players he's been consistent with him the point about the results is absolutely legitimate one win in ten and Manchester United being in the relegation zone is a disaster for Manchester United yes okay maybe disaster is too no no I think it is disastrous but I think it is it is horrific and I keep saying this word which I've never used before I'm watching my team through my fingers every week, including against Villa.

15:19I don't think he lost a lot of the players. The players decided after Bournemouth and said collectively, led by Bruno Fernandes, and there's been a lot of misreporting out there as well, give us a chance to get out of this. And as you touched on, there's been mixed reactions to that. Michael will be hurting badly about... How do you think he is feeling? You know him well, like you said before. How would you feel if you lost your job? How would you feel if people are talking about, and Laurie alluded to it, people talking about you, but you're kept in the dark? How would you feel? You'd feel horrendous.

15:55This has been a really difficult few days for Michael Carrick. So do you not think he was told until today that this was going to happen, clearly? My understanding is that after the Bournemouth game, there was an indication that, and feel free to agree or disagree with what you might know, that there's this period up until the transfer, until the international break now, to see how things go. It wasn't written down. There's an understanding. And then you get to Monday, and I think there was some communication to Michael or his agent, basically saying, this is going to happen. There'll be a leadership group in Monaco.

16:36That has long been planned. It's not necessarily a football thing, but Jason Wilcox and Omar Brado, are going there. And had they done that and journalists not got into it, then they could have come back and made their decision in good faith, okay? But the media have got onto it because that's what the media do and Manchester United is such a big football club and there's a huge amount of screwing in. It's a long time as well, isn't it? It's a huge amount of time. Michael didn't know what was happening. Didn't know what was happening. And that's just an awful situation. it just is and and he's lost his job and he got told about an hour and a half ago at Carrington but up until that point he did not know he didn't know and I don't know even now what happens to the lads around him I can make assumptions Pochettino or whoever comes in they bring their own people that is that is the way that football is it's a shitty industry sometimes and but it is also a results industry.

17:40I think Michael Carrick, his head can be held high, absolutely gave it his best shot, overachieved in the first part. This season has been a real struggle. He must take some of the blame for that as well. He must do. He's the manager. Yeah, he will do. And the players. He said that openly, that he takes ultimate responsibility. You've seen the reaction from fans, Ian. You've seen the reaction from fans. And I don't think the fans singing his name were necessarily saying, there's a difference there, isn't there? We've said that a lot. We've said it. Also, I think you can support the person and the figure that is Michael Carrick and not be concerned about what you see in results and performances and tactics and everything else.

18:18When you talk about the fact there that he hadn't been told clearly what was happening and it's been several days since we even first reported it on the podcast about it, do you not think he deserves more than that considering he has kept his counsel when he's been privately, it sounds, upset with certain things that have happened, certain decisions that have been made. He wanted more in the summer. He was quite clear on that until the transfer window closed and then obviously decided he didn't want to push any more when he could have done. A lot of managers would have. Yeah. Do you not think he deserves better than that?

18:54Yeah, I do. I think he wanted players who didn't come. Could Manchester United have been more aggressive in the transfer market? I think things keep escaping Manchester United. Does story escape Manchester United? Does summer transfer window escape Manchester United? Well, who's responsible for that? The people in charge of it. Well, you can't control the market any more than when Fergie said, there's no value in the market. I'm sorry, Alex Ferguson, nobody decides how much value is in the market. So you can budget for anything you like. And there was a budget there, which any sports director would have to have had.

19:27And it ended up being insufficient. And again, I'm not going to write off the lads who've come in. the players, because I don't think that's fair. But it feels underwhelming when you know the main targets were Elliot Anderson, Matias Fernandes, Tonali yes and no. But he went for 100 million. Morgan Rodgers was hugely admired. And then there's the left-back thing. And it's all right saying yes, no, yes, no. The left-back didn't come. And then as luck would have it, or a Manchester United even cursed, the two most important positions which needed strengthening end up getting players who are injured.

20:02So that compounds the problem. There's loads of mitigation here. The injuries are a big issue as well. It's just a bad time. I remember Graham Sooners at Blackburn Rovers managing there. He said, you know, you're going to lose your job because people stopped talking to you in the corridors. Gary Neville at Valencia. I was very close to Gary winners at Valencia. You smell it. Should you have been better informed? Of course. Do you get better informed? You don't. and it's crap.

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22:23What do you think's gone wrong on the pitch? and why are we at this point where Carrick's losing his job only 10 games into the Premier League season because unquestionably you've gone from being the team who's taken the most points in the Premier League in his interim period to a side in the relegation zone with one win from the first 10 league games of the campaign what on earth has gone wrong? Yeah well I think Andy's touched on it in terms of the summer window right like and I accept that there's a budget and what have you but then you can still ask questions of how that money's been spent and on who and in what way.

22:56So Luke Shaw, for example, you probably anticipate he would get injured at some point this season. He had a brilliant season last season, but it was one game a week. So you really, you're getting into difficulties already when you're then having to play Diogo Dallo at left back who's done it, but we can clearly see the deficiencies there as we saw against Aston Villa, for example, and against Roma. So there's that aspect to it and that falls on Jason Wilcox in my opinion in terms of his role. I know there's, well, again, there's different people that agents, when they call and propose players or whatever, have to go through.

23:32So there's Omar Barada, Jason Wilcox, Chris Favell, Matt Hargreaves of the Dutton Negotiation. So you've got different people that you're kind of trying to all unify on this one target. And then above that, you've also got Ratcliffe and the Glazers who may have different opinions at different moments on certain signings and how much they're willing to commit to certain signings on what age profile of signing that is. So you've And that slows the process down. So can United be as nimble as they should be? A couple of times, certainly in the season, in the summer, it felt like with Uri Tielemans, for example, that obviously was a pretty stealthy situation.

24:06Then they triggered the release clause, went for him. But obviously you're thinking on reflection, good player, certainly, but he's the only one that's actually playing. Carlos Belieber's been injured and he's got injured again. Andre Santos feels like very much a squad player, peripheral player, like he was at Chelsea, and they spent£50 million on him. Tielemans is playing more than you think he would be doing because really he is 29, he's been at Villa, been at Leicester. He's not a player that goes straight into Manchester United starting line-up, is he? He's a player that supplements it because you've now got the Champions League and he's got that kind of experience.

24:39So when you think about it, so United will say that their squad is stronger than it was last season. They will say that 100%. Is it? when you've got Sesko injured and okay again you don't anticipate that necessarily but also they were aware that it was an injury that took longer to recover from than we were at the time when we were looking at the transfer market Marcus Rashford coming back has been a difficulty I think in terms of then just you know Matthias Cunha's role on the left he doesn't have that nailed down necessarily all the time and then obviously Rashford himself getting injured so you've got like well I think with Kunya as well you've had him playing away from the left hand side through the middle at the start of the season and then when Ahmad's back and they can reshuffle things it's Kunya who loses his place in the team and he's been the one asked to play in a different role to what he feels is his best role I suppose and it's not Rashford who's dropped it's Kunya yeah and he's a you know he's a very emotional character shall we say so that's something that you have to navigate as a head coach manager and then obviously this is the Manchester United job though these are the types of things you've got to get right right Exactly.

25:48And so that's when you can say on Michael Carrick, right, well, what happened in pre-season? Was it good enough? Because you look at that whole game and the urgency didn't feel like it was there. Did you go to Hull? I went to Hull. I don't know if you did. I drove him there, would you believe? The tactics, though, I suppose, that is definitely something we should talk about because it did feel like they were preparing for a season with an approach that was different to what they'd done in that period between January and the end of the campaign. it felt far more like a possession-focused approach.

26:19Carrick spoke about that, definitely. Although when you look at the numbers, they are quite similar in terms of passes per defensive action. I'm going to go there. So that's obviously how much the opposition can play before they get tackled. The higher the number suggests they lower the high press, shall we say. They're quite similar from last season to this season. Do you not think that's because they just revert to tight when it starts going wrong? Yeah, and that's obviously then when you get the issue with Bruno Fernandes at Como and saying, you know, basically he wanted to press. What we're doing.

26:52Yeah, the instruction was not to press because do they have the personnel? Now you can ask, is that the profile of signings that they've made? And certainly people have expressed that to me. Or is it the fitness work that was done in pre-season? And again, that has been something that's been suggested to me as well. So I don't know where the exact truth lies. Or is it Carrick and the coaching staff's ability to be able to communicate what their ideas are, I carry that out and follow it through, even when stuff's not going perfectly. And have belief in that. Because I suppose that's the one thing you'd say.

27:19I agree with Andy. I don't think that he'd lost the players. I think that there was a meeting after Bournemouth where they came together again and kind of tried to refocus their minds. Now, does that mean that all the players had absolute faith that he was going to turn it around? I don't know. I would perhaps doubt that. But that's just, again, what you've got to manage in that scenario. But yeah, so like I said, I don't think it's any kind of big blow-up that's happened and you've got people absolutely pointing questions and saying he can't be the Manchester United head coach. But clearly it's got to a point now where I guess the club felt they needed to do something.

27:54You can't... I would say that Carrick probably backed himself to turn it around, again, even in this situation, given time. Now, whether that's right or wrong, obviously we don't know now, but I feel like you can understand it from both perspectives. Do you think the sprinkling of uncertainty about some key players' futures have played a part? Because we've talked about Asandrol Martinez being out of contract, Bruno Fernandes being out of contract, even like Harry Maguire, Luke Shaw being out of contract, Marcus Rashford's situation. A lot of uncertainty there about some of the sort of leadership members in this group, even though I think there is, like we've talked about, a lack of leadership right now.

28:33You've got three, in theory, leaders in the team. You've got the captain, who I think has done a very good job, but for the first time, he's got a bit emotional. I don't think he should have said what he said in Como, and he's probably frustrated as well. I have faith in him. Martinez, we've discussed him. He actually struck a strong accord with fans, but I think he was looking out more for himself. And I don't think he's done it from a position of strength, given his performances this season. It would be interesting if he stays, what his relationship's like with his compatriot, because they share many of the same, you know, us against the world sort of.

29:08Well, he's got to get all these people on side. You know, an Argentinian getting a Brazilian on side. I love this sort of, the dynamics of it all. I think you've got a couple of things. Laurie's touched on them. Tactics. I spoke to a lad who were working in tactics at the highest level. I'm not. So I'm going to paraphrase the sort of stuff that I get. The only thing I'm world level at is selling fanzines on the street. Not bad with maps, to be fair. Decent with maps. Train timetables. All that sort of stuff. The important things in life. United have changed the tactics this year, partly because they started to be getting sussed more.

29:39All right? So they've jumped from that mid-low block where Casimiro was particularly effective, and you've lost Casimiro. Okay? United are pressing really badly this year. They're jumping into the press. It's not working. That's where you've got the point of tension, which Bruno refers to. Your confidence is low, and you've got injuries. You've got this amalgamation of factors. and other things have gone against Michael Carrick. Marcus Rashford, you mentioned. He wanted to stay at Barcelona. United would have happily sold him. He didn't. He came back, as is his right, because he's got a contract, but he's also injured again.

30:14So that makes things even worse. Luke Shaw, Benjamin Sescombe. Laurie talked about Diogo Delo. I've been thinking about him quite a bit the last few days. Really uncomfortable with that reaction to him the other day. And I'll get pelters for this. I don't care. I'll just put a few points out there. The last eight managers have chosen to start Diogo Delon, mainly when he's in his best position, which is right back. He's now agreed to play out of position against some of the best wingers in the world. We saw that against Villa, and he's having a really rough time of it. He's not playing well. I'm not going to pretend that he's playing well.

30:53He's not pretending to be injured. Other players have done that in recent years. He's always been available, and I'm just really uncomfortable about the reaction. I interviewed him last week after the Roma game. The comments were horrendous. And like, he's a Manchester United player. Is he the best right back in the world? No, he's not. Would he be a right back in a top, top Manchester United team? I doubt that. But eight managers, very different managers, have chosen to sign him. I think the problem is that people see him as a symbol of what's gone wrong over the last few years. Which is fair.

31:26But what do you want him to do? I don't know whether it is fair. All right, I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave. I don't know whether it is fair. But there's frustration around him. I get that, Ian. I get it. Because he's still there and because managers and United have failed when Diogo has been in the team previously. And there's others as well. There's other players who've been there a long time. And you're part of the sort of dysfunction of it all is the fact that you've still got this patchwork quilt of a squad signed by multiple different managers. I heard something. They're in like double figures for the amount of people who've been in charge over the class the last 13 years.

31:57What, for managers? Yeah. For the inter-care takers. Well, I mean, and then we get to... Where's the vision? There's got to be a vision, haven't there? Moving forward, there's got to be. Well, so they're going for, now with Pochettino, they're going for a guy who has a CV that feels the best fit for United, because it ticks quite a few boxes of what you'd probably want. But it's, again, you'd probably say it's, let's see, it's a hopeful appointment. It's somebody that, there won't be this consistency for United. It doesn't feel like that to me. You know, this idea that, you know, you have head coach, sporting structure that would stay the same.

32:35The signers would be made based on what that manager wants. Because again, we're here now at a different point. Do you think Pochettino would have signed Tielemans and Andre Santos, for example, for what we remember as his prototype style of football, that kind of high press that he had at Spurs? Again, I know that people can move and I'm sure he's an adaptive manager, but that feels like it's going to be a consistent theme now for United going forward. And so that's why I sort of have some sympathy for the executives at a certain level because how much is there, how much license have they got or is it Ratcliffe, the Glazers that ultimately make these kind of calls?

33:14But then I would still say, and it's understandable why there's so much scrutiny on the likes of Jason Wilcox and Omar Barada because of their backgrounds, because of where they're at now and they're making calls based on who the best manager is for Manchester United. and the record so far is now three different names in the dugout in three seasons and at a cost of, so it's another 2 million maybe. I don't know the figures, I'm sort of guessing. On Carrick perhaps, 7 million on Pochettino. So then it's what is that, 40 million overall so far, 45? And actually that's money that now can't be invested in January, isn't it?

33:50I mean, presumably it must have some impact in the overall picture because the finances are so tight right now. Yeah, I mean, I'll try to figure out if it goes on the squad cost ratio. I don't think it does in terms of those kind of numbers, but obviously it's cash. United don't have much cash. Exactly that, yeah. Or the cash they do have is on a credit card. There should be criticism. There should be scrutiny because these people will be getting praised if things were going right and things are not going right. Well, the biggest feedback we had from the live stream yesterday, and it was purposeful, the focus was on the decision on Pochettino and exactly how that had come about.

34:22But there was criticism that we didn't talk enough about the leadership and their responsibility in what's going on. Jason Wilcox, Omar Barada, Jim Ratcliffe as well, to be fair. So they came in in 24, best in class, all these type of statements. And I think that there was a general encouragement from most Manchester United fans. There was a significant number of Manchester United fans who wanted Qatari ownership, at least online, in the online world. And they just vanished, bizarrely. so you get um the ineos coming through they're the only people who showed proof of funds in the sec filings okay anyone in the world could have brought it or brought into manchester united and then they've come in with like we know an air of we know what we're doing yeah all right people are and i'm not convinced a lot of them did know they would accuse that of hubris yes and i think that some people who came in at the time, not all of them are at the club.

35:21I get stories. I'm sure you get stories. And you think you didn't really know what you, you're not as, the reality of what you think is right is not like the reality at Manchester United Football Club. And now you're seeing chickens coming home to roost because you're able to judge them over a body of decisions. And there's been some good ones and there has been a lot of bad ones as well. And you're looking at the league table. And I do not think it is unfair to add scrutiny and pressure. You're always going to get pressure at a club like Manchester United. We have complimented Jason Wilcox in his role as sports director.

35:56I have in 25 for all I'm signing. The five, do you know what I mean? And now I'm going to hold back on the summer signings. I'll repeat myself because I don't think it's fair for me to go in hard on any of them players when they've been at the club for five minutes. But United lost out on key, key targets. and there is a lack of trust between fans and the club. There are off-field issues such as ticketing. You've got a major issue with the new stadium as well. So the club is not in a good place. And with football indecisions, you're quite right to say, well, wait a minute. All right, you got rid of Ten Hag.

36:32That happens in football. He wasn't your man. You bring in Ruben Amorim, a huge amount of support from United fans, given how bad the win rate was. And then he goes. and then Michael Carrick gets the job after doing very well as an interim. You can judge that now with hindsight, but I don't recall many protests when he was offered the job full-time. I think they had to give him the job really because if they didn't give him the job and it went badly for the new guy, you're instantly going, you should have just given it to Carrick. And I don't think anyone could have anticipated going this badly, but then I would still say, you should have supported him better then.

37:07You should have, the skills that you need in that job and that's why it comes back to, And I know that maybe this feels a bit of a pile on Jason Wilcox, for example, because he's the main football person that decides stuff. Although I accept you've got Berard, you've got Ratcliffe, you've got the Glazers that definitely have influence still. But when he's got the background that he's got, we have to judge him on what's happened at United and it isn't good enough.

38:08We'll be right back.

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39:15it looks miserly the summer recruitment it looks like there was a budget and the budget's been agreed to and they could have broke it to buy Bouadi for example too big a risk because he was too young they absolutely liked him or Morgan Rodgers or Anderson there's been plenty of times this season I thought would it just have been better just to go for Anderson and this is what I will say this is where you've got to go these things right. Yeah, because Manchester United needs A-listers. You're a club that is trying to challenge for a title. You can't make it up of, you know, kind of peripheral figures basically and hope that they come together to meet some kind of incredible scenario.

39:52That's a fine. Yeah. Jim's just heard what you've said about him. I think as well, on balance, you have to be getting more decisions right than wrong in any job. Yeah, so my, but at this level, so my point being, if you've got the record of doing that at other big clubs, you could go, okay, fine, you've got this one wrong, but we see what you've done before. The pedigree that we've brought in with Jason Milkoff, for example, is Man City's academy and is Southampton. And we did the piece to the day where early on in his time at United, he mentioned Russell Martin as a figure that he thought was good.

40:28I'm sure he's a very good coach, but obviously it shows the kind of pool that perhaps he was thinking about appointing a Manchester United head coach manager in. And then I think that's the same thing when it comes to players. I'm sure he's got... People tell me that he's a very good eye for talent. I don't know. I just think that if you're trying to get United to where it needs to be, is that good enough at the moment? Look at the history of United. They've needed to break the bank at various points in history. Dennis Law, all right? They had to borrow money off a prominent local Manchester businessman to do that.

41:00Even Roy Keane. I was told by really good sources at the time, We just had to wait for the season ticket money to be banked. United have really had to stretch themselves historically. 89, Fergie was on his uppers. They went out and signed Gary Pallister for a record fee. Danny Wallace cost a lot of money. Mike Phelan did. Paul Ince cost a huge amount of money. It was seen as really risky at the time, but it ended up paying off. Jim Ratcliffe, of all people, said there is a direct correlation between what you spend and what you get. Now, it is complicated because Manchester City, by hook or by crook, have been able to outspend everybody.

41:41Chelsea, by hook or by crook, have been able to do the same. So it's not a level playing field. And then United have had to get control of the costs because United were losing money. That is factually correct. But it's too much control of the costs. Are they thinking, all right, we did well last year, bringing in Dorghu and Lamans and Kunja, and can we actually be a bit smarter than everyone else? And it just doesn't look as smart this year. Everything that's gone wrong, could go wrong, has gone wrong. Even Ugati, one of the players he wanted to sell, he goes and gets a serious injury in the World Cup finals.

42:18The money that you'd hopefully use from saving Marcus Rashford's wages and transfer fee. So that edge, that ceiling stops being there. But I'm doubtful if Manchester United offered 300 million for Elliot Anderson that Manchester City wouldn't have offered. I'm being slightly facetious here, but do you know what I'm saying? Morgan Rodgers, 117 million. But this is also a result of being one point whatever billion pounds in debt from an ownership structure that's been in place for 20 years. Which we have discussed in almost every single podcast that we have ever done. You're operating under a cloud.

42:57What is the solution to that? The debt exists. The debt needs paying off. Well, I think it just brings... The takeover should never, ever have been allowed to happen, but it was. So you've got to operate. And Ineos have to operate under that. Is it ideal? Well, that's why you, when you've got to be... What's the solution? That's when you've got to be the best in the business. that's when you've got to be working at the top level and performing as efficiently and as, I know it's an impossible thing, but as perfectly as possible. The margin of error at United is squeezed so much by the circumstances around the club, that that's when the people who are making these calls have to be as good as they possibly can be to get them right and to try and get this club back to anything like what we've seen in the past.

43:42And obviously that's difficult, but then that brings... And the past is another pressure. Well, of course it is. Former players. Of course it is. You know, it's not quite as good as me. Nobody is. Who's as good as Roy Keane? You know? But also, you're not even, to be honest, you're not even playing against those former players. You're playing against the memory of those former players. I can remember all of them having stinking matches. Exactly. I can remember them. I can remember Ryan Geeks getting booed for a season. Well, at least one. Yeah. And he will say I'd actually deserve that. Michael Carrick, by the way.

44:11Michael Carrick. I interviewed him in 2010. hand, right? He was getting horrendous abuse from Manchester United fans. Of course, we all forget now that because he's a club legend. I went to see him and I put questions to, said, you're allowed to ask questions. And the first question was, why are you a disgrace of a footballer? And I read it. And this is before your Twitters and all that nonsense. It's awful. It wouldn't the European Cup have been a top player and parted harder than the rest actually in Moscow. No one outdrank Michael Carrick after that night in Moscow. Yeah. But have you looked at me like, maybe I could have outdrank him.

44:52You would have probably given him a good shot to be fair. He'd been out as long. He wouldn't have outdrank him. That's an important distinction to make. Right. I mean, there's so much of this that we could continue to go over, to be honest, but it's going to be a continuing theme. I should say welcome along anyone who's joined us while the conversation has been ongoing. We are live on YouTube. we are live on the Athletic app as well I've been reading your comments I've been trying to keep across them as much as possible there is hundreds coming through so thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the situation at Manchester United at the moment obviously we've been focusing on the decision to sack Michael Carrick today on the scrutiny that the different people within the club are now getting as a result of this decision and the way things have been going Monday's show like I promised yesterday will be much more of a look at what Mauricio Pochettino is going to bring to the party.

45:44We've got insight from his time at Spurs, Chelsea, PSG, beyond that as well. But The Athletic reported on Wednesday evening, so last night, that he is expected to be in charge for these two matches against Haiti on Saturday and the second one, which is basically overnight UK time, Tuesday night, Wednesday morning. The U.S. men's national team have been officially approached by Manchester United as well. That was broken by the Athletic on Wednesday evening too. It's due to hold a press conference on Friday, so we'll see what happens between now and then. But for the minute, this is the Athletic correspondent, Henry Bushnell, with his view on the atmosphere within that U.S.

46:25men's national team training camp right now. Manucio Pochettino walked onto this training field behind me on Wednesday morning, and as weird as it sounds, everything looked normal. He was almost jovial as he greeted JT Batson, the U.S. soccer CEO. He exchanged handshakes with players. He chatted with a couple kids who'd been called up from the under-20s for the day. When he brought the team and staff together in a circle, as he always does at the start of training, he spoke about the session, not about Man United. Chris Richards, the U.S. defender who plays at Palace, told me that Poach has not addressed the Man United situation in any team meetings at all.

46:58Now, obviously all the players have seen the news, and nobody here is denying that Poach will end up at Man United. For now, the expectation is that he will coach both of the USMNT's upcoming games against Haiti, but that could obviously change as negotiations continue. And remember, this isn't just about buying out one contract and negotiating another one. Pochettino has a team of assistants that go with him everywhere, basically, and they'll leave as well. So if this is the end, it's a pretty strange end to a complicated tenure for Poch in the US. He'll have left the program in a much better place than he found it, for sure.

47:31But he's also the only USMNT coach of the 21st century to not win a single trophy. And his biggest game, that World Cup round of 16 game against Belgium, was a complete flop. So it's not as if everyone here is devastated. In some circles, there's already plenty of talk about replacements and what's next. We've been told by several sources that Pep Guardiola is expected to be a top target. If he's not interested, there will certainly be others. The US will move on. and I think everyone around the program will also be fascinated to see how Poach does in Manchester. Yeah, we'll all be fascinated, Henry, to see how he does in Manchester.

48:06Thank you very much for bringing us that. I mean, obviously, we're not too concerned about the fortunes of the US men's national team on a Manchester United podcast. That said, are we all right with him taking these next two games and not arriving in Manchester for another week or so? I think certainly some people close to United would be questioning that. Get here and get on with it. surely right now okay the reality is that there are a few players at Carrington at the moment most of them are on international duty it's not just about coaching on the pitch though is it I know it's about establishing connections with colleagues and getting a feel for it so effectively if he stays with the US for Haiti game the second one is Wednesday morning UK time it's midnight Tuesday night Wednesday morning UK time so I mean is he going to fly straight away after that and then come so basically where's the game do we know in America you put me on the spot there it's two legs should have asked Henry right yeah it's two legs it's a quarter final thinking right and saying of a Nations League time I'm not sure which way around it is you're thinking West Coast you're like yeah that's how my head works Haiti have also been playing their games away from Haiti over the last few years as a big Haiti fan I'm well familiar and I'm hoping that Mauricio Pochettino is not in charge because of the political situation yeah anyway back to reality and yeah so so what is it Thursday he's going to take training for the first time at United.

49:27So you've got Thursday, Friday, Saturday, playing at Anfield on Sunday. It is, you know, United have gone to the international break to hire a manager and the manager is in work. Liverpool away. Liverpool away. I mean, listen, he's been there before, so, you know, it's not like he needs a tour around the place, but how will he know? I mean, listen, maybe he's been watching United games because he's such a United fan and Jesus Perez, I think, also is certainly and his assistant. so United fan well okay I didn't see him away of shooting for Bragg in 84 okay well you take an issue because Carrick literally was a United fan after his playing days wasn't he but listen you know fandom can come and go with different people sometimes but I certainly think the affection that he's got so maybe he's been looking at United games already but to then know what Cincinnati is where the game is on Tuesday thank you for doing some work no problem Andy posing the question you give us the answer thank you the Bengals sorry so maybe he knows like you know roughly what he wants to do but it's going to be okay let's suck it and see kind of thing really isn't it it feels after the event I mean listen Ruben Amarin got what was it was it four more games or two more games it was a few more games wasn't it and again that was because that was difficult with sporting I think the negotiation over the release clause there but even he then expressed a distaste for coming mid-season as well so it feels like you're kind of setting these managers Braga that he played did you go on that?

50:54Playing all the yesterday Braga the two big trips listen car trips you look at I've not mentioned Entrida yet and how Eric Tanag mentioned broken promises and left without word on his job his take on Pochettino considering that that 2019 Champions League semi-final and also those were the two in the final two for the 2022 job interview weren't they? Ultimately United went for Tanag more detailed tactically Pochettino's approach was kind of more about the togetherness and kind of a bit looser shall we say on the tactical details but there's different ways I think we've certainly established that to try and manage Manchester United and let's see how he does I mean obviously the you know the stick that was always used to beating with was not winning things with Spurs obviously he won Lee Gunn with PSG so it's a little bit concerning that he's the only I didn't realise that the only US manager not to win a trophy I mean it must be yeah must be like gold cups and stuff like that.

51:53You didn't get it right straight away with the US men's national team. It was a slow burner. I remember doing the Athletic FC podcast in the summer with Henry actually and a few of us where they sort of explained it took a little while and obviously in international football that takes longer than club football and Chelsea was the same as well. Obviously we'll talk more on Monday's show about what United are getting with Pochettino. So my point is that United aren't in the market necessarily for winning trophies right now. They kind of need someone to stabilise. Just stop at winning a game. Let's find a trophy.

52:24If he gets as sort of lucky or has that charm about him as he did in 2019 on that run that you mentioned, Ian, they were 3-0 down to Ajax and then scored three goals in the second half away and won the last kick of the game, basically, to go through to the final. Great game, that. The result is a great game. And then in terms of coaching and what actually happens, I did wonder, who takes the sessions now that Carrick's been departed. The only one I thought was maybe Travis Binion could potentially stay. He's well regarded. Yeah. Just because he was already at the club when Carrick arrived and he kind of stepped up to it.

53:00I think he's been leading sessions anyway. So maybe he bridges that gap. But he's happy in his lane. To be fair, I'm just going to look at the comments because I think it's fair that so many people have got involved. And thank you so much for joining us on the live stream. There's a few people here asking about Anfield. so Anthony said they won't put Potch in for Anfield they won't want a bad start for him Fletcher put the cape on no they'll put Potch in yeah a couple of others asking is there a chance Crafton Miller says Fletcher Anfield is there any chance that Darren is really enjoying coaching the team he's coaching and being a family man I'm sure if he was asked to do it then yeah the other option you could bring in someone like Michael Carriker's interim tell you what if you got a ticket for that away end at Anfield 3 ,000 you shouldn't be allowed one unless you're going to sing for 90 minutes and get behind that team because that will be a bear pit this is when Manchester United come alive well you're wearing your gear where you can put your hood up and get out there on the terraces went to Liverpool last night see a gig I saw that Paul Heaton yeah good lad Paul Sheffield United fan all Everton's lads were there don't have any problems for me no no seriously Liverpool away yeah you've got to show your worth they have to have Puccino in the dugout there They can't have an interim in that situation.

54:19They didn't want to do an interim anyway. Well, to be fair, there's not much for Gat to the next game anyway. Yeah, sporting three days later. Exactly. So whenever you put him in, just put him in. Just get on with it. And maybe Henry did say it was as things stand, the expectation was that he'd take the two matches against Haiti. Perhaps. I don't get a sense that United are, I think they're, how should we say, comfortable. If that's what the US want and that's what Poitino wants for his exit, then I don't think going to force the issue and I guess we can question that certainly but yeah in terms of the players that are there at the moment I'm trying to think Maynou, Mount Maguire Maguire very quiet there this week Rashford depending on the fitness situations probably some coming back if I'm trying to be optimistic a little bit always the way isn't it it is always the way but again remember the queuing up when Carrick first came in or Fletcher was in temporary charge maybe a coincidence I don't know Cesco suddenly 100 % fit Nice drop, by the way, but there will be others.

55:18Okay. All right. Look at the eyebrows raised there. You just gave me a load of different stories that I know I've got to pursue. I know he's got to pursue them all. That was it. Newsound will be straight up. Hey, listen, you broke the story this morning, Andy. I love that. Yeah, Michael Carrick sacked. Yeah. I mean, at some point, we've got to refocus on United playing games, winning football, everything else. Like I've said a few times, Monday, we'll look much more into exactly what Manchester United are getting with Pochettino. For what it's worth, the fan survey on the Athletic, The results of that make interesting reading.

55:45The question was, when the news was broken that Mauricio Pochettino would be the choice, we asked if he would be the right choice to be the head coach of Manchester United. And 59.1 % of respondents said yes, 40.9 % said no. So yeah, there is support for him. Like I say, we will talk more about it. But for the moment, Andy and Laurie, thank you for being with us again on the live stream. remember to get yourselves subscribed to the Athletics Talk of the Devils podcast the Manchester United special that we do obviously all the time to our YouTube channel get yourselves subscribed to that turn the notifications on as well whenever we go live like we've done several times this week you'll be the first ones to know about it if you're listening back to this on the podcast as well go and check out our YouTube channel but thank you for your company thanks for your support throughout the week for getting involved in the comments and the conversation as well it's not been an easy week to talk about Manchester United once again.

56:40Let's hope things from this moment can improve. We'll be back on Monday, like I've said several times, and we'll speak to you then. Thanks for joining us. Take care. United we stand. Be bad as we fall.

57:12The Athletic FC.

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