Man United enter international break in relegation zone

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1:45The Athletic FC. Well, what on earth was that? I have absolutely no idea what we're supposed to be feeling after that game. Manchester United 4, Aston Villa 4. it leaves Manchester United that draw in the relegation zone heading into the November international break. I can't quite believe I'm saying that sentence. We're going to try and make sense of it, what it means for the club, what it means for Michael Carrick, of course, as well. It's the Talk to the Devils live stream with Andy Mitten, Laurie Whitwell and Keris Jones. Get involved.

2:32Hello and welcome along to the Athletics Talk of the Devils. It's a live stream. It's live on the Athletic app. It's live on YouTube as well. We're here in the studio in Manchester. I've already introduced them, but let's see their faces. There's Laurie, there's Keris, there's Andy. After a quite mental game of football, I have no idea what to make of it. There are so many different things going through all of our minds right now. yeah ridiculous is one way to describe it lots of people getting involved in the comments already please get involved I'll do my best to read out as many of them as I can throughout the stream I've got my laptop set up especially for just that it was crazy wasn't it crazy from very start to the very end because it was like you just got yourself sorted and then alright you're 1-0 down brilliant fantastic same again 2-0 down pretty swiftly after then all the way to the final kick of the game really where you've got Unai Emery walking off down the pitch after United have equalised, not waiting for the final whistle claiming he thought the game was over but I think he just had enough and was angry, very, very angry and then even United having a sort of chance to potentially win it would have been head scrambled all over the place I know it didn't quite have a shot in the end but Mason Mount probably overhit the cross into the middle yeah, I don't really know how to make sense of it other than mistakes defensively.

3:54Again, absolutely being critical to United and just so damaging. But then also Spirit, to come back twice from two goals down in the same game, the same week that they've already come back from two goals down to win in Europe, it is bonkers. Has a football team ever come back from two goals down three times in two games in the space of a few days? I thought you were going to ask me that one that we read out, the stat just before we came on air, that no team has ever come back from two goals down twice in the same game in the Premier League. So I would imagine that you could extend that and say no to your question also.

4:30But I don't... Kerry, I don't know. Are we supposed to feel happy that they came back or flat that they were in the place to come back in the first place? Well, I'm all just can't really get over the fact they're in the relegation zone. We want to see spirit. We want to see fight, but it's just not enough. They keep shooting. They were pretty quick, at least this time after pretty much all the goals that they scored, United to try and go and get the ball out of the net and go again. But they left it too late, you know, that you keep shooting yourselves in the foot with these defensive errors. And I don't even know how you obviously like scrutiny will come on on Michael Carrick.

5:10And I think that's that's completely fair. But some of these errors, how do you coach the thinking behind some of the things that the players are doing? I don't know. I just feel, I want to feel happy after a comeback. You said it earlier, like comebacks at United used to be about winning trebles, not drawing to decide what place you're in in the bottom three. It's just really, it's just really bleak. It's so far off what's expected. So far off what we expected at the start of the season. I mean, just looking at some of the comments coming in, Andy. Andy Williams says, yeah, playing when the game's gone isn't a compliment.

5:46I mean, it almost felt like the game was gone after four minutes. That's the earliest United have ever been behind in the Premier League by two goals as well. There's other comments coming in as well. I can't read them out. But people are not happy, clearly. No, I mean, the people sending... I mean, I'm a neutral, so I thought it was a great game of football. As if. So Keres keeps saying relegation. I can't get my head around one win in ten. He just keeps bouncing into my head. One win in ten. And Laurie used the term, scrambled. my head feels like that. United are the first top flight side to win just one of their first 10 games, having finished in the top three the previous season since Arsenal in 1953-54.

6:29Wow. It hasn't happened for 70 years. We're getting stats like this all the time, aren't we? I could read about 12 out. And they're all negative. Just on this show, yeah. They're all completely negative. And I wasn't actually stunned that United went behind after 10 seconds or whatever it was, and 2-0 down after four minutes, because I keep seeing it. I keep seeing these repeat mistakes, repeat patterns, and then even repeating so much as United then play well, as they did for large periods of the first half. Got a couple of goals. But look at the league table. Today was the first day in the entire history of our fanzine that we've sold with United in a relegation position.

7:11Like mid-season, apart from, you know, you might lose at Brentford or whatever in August. Yeah. we started it in 1989 it's a long time ago it's just just a little longer than that isn't it the last time yeah in this position 86-87 so that was never in the Premier League era basically so 86-87 40 years ago was when Fergie came in yeah yeah and do you know who finished bottom that year Aston Villa and just got that one and did you there Andy I was reading about it the other day I thought you were just wanting some retribution on some of the songs they were singing today they were having a right good time at Tuna Lut, weren't they?

7:46Not so much at all. And 4-2. Yeah, having a go at Uri, you know, she used to play for a big club. Uri watched her score, you know, when it was 4-2. Wouldn't it have just been great if we would have got a fifth and we'd have gone 5-4? It's not happening, is it? He's needed wins since Hull in August. We're now in November. We're soon going to be in December in a relegation place. This doesn't change. Manchester United are going down. I'm not saying accept it, but that is the reality of the situation. Well, that very statement is why something needs to happen. Something needs to change. This can't just be a situation that we now accept.

8:25The standards can't fall to the point where a four-all draw at home to Aston Villa is okay, surely. I don't think anyone accepts it. I think you cannot defend like that. United have conceded four goals, two goals in the first half the other day against Roma. One of the worst defences in the league. Well, 30 goals they've conceded. That is the highest number of any side in Europe's top five leagues. No team has conceded more. So you've got a goalkeeper who's not playing as well as he was last season. He's not getting a protection from his defence. You've got a defence which was short at the start of the season anyway, where a new left-back wasn't brought in.

9:07And then you've got multiple injuries. Luke Shaw was out. Lissandro Martinez was banned. Harry Maguire went off at half-time. De Ligt has been coming back for a month now. So you end up playing with players who probably would not have started. And in front of them, there's so many holes in the team. Even the ones who should have started, though, aren't doing much better, are they? No, they're not. And people playing out of position. There were some horror shows today. I hate going personal into players, but there were some absolute horror shows in that defence today. And right from the start, that first goal was a terrible one to concede.

9:51The penalty, Diogo Deloitte was a terrible one to concede. We're going to get into it, aren't we? We're in it already. And we're in a washing machine where we're being spun around and round. And I cannot see an end to this. Really? Well, how? Okay, being optimistic. What can they do? Players start winning matches. But I could be here on the 10th of May before the 37th game where United have got 14 points all season. Go on, need to start winning matches. They're going to run out of time. But they can change manager, can't they? That's obviously a consideration. I mean, that's what it felt like they were talking about, where it was what they were talking about after the Bournemouth game.

10:29Obviously, they came down and decided to stick with Michael Carrick. Although, again, it was sort of strange that it wasn't then more affirmative than that. It was sort of, you know, once given the chance to turn results around without kind of giving definition to that obviously then I think we've then made calls and figured out that it was to do with the international break so then you'd come to this point and go right well another reassessment therefore is in the works and yeah I mean so making a few calls tonight the temperature doesn't feel like that's the kind of the way it's happened there at the end with those two late goals doesn't feel like there's then an immediate urgency to make that kind of call.

11:09Again, Michael Carrick was pretty strong, I thought, actually, post-match in terms of his future. Even pre-game in the press conference on Friday, I think a few of us said to each other, that doesn't feel like his final Friday press conference, no matter what was coming against Aston Villa. The press conference that had come before in the last few weeks, there was a lot more uncertainty. Pre-borne one certainly felt like, and then obviously afterwards. So that's why it felt different. so maybe they decided at that point maybe there was a a potential thought of who they were going to go for and they've had some reconsideration around that um clearly i think they're now at a stage where they are and will have to be just checking what those circumstances are i'm not saying direct at all i don't think that's happened but you know agents are obviously making calls into United.

12:00But yeah, as I say, I don't sense any... At the moment, obviously things can change, but I don't sense that that's a situation that's going to... I don't think Michael Carrick is going to lose his job as we speak right now. And I could say he seemed quite certain about that really after the game, which I agree with you is a bit of a shift from what we've had a little bit at times already this season. Yeah, Kerry, so I suppose, I'm just looking at the comments coming in here. Mr. Dingar, I think is the right way to pronounce it says, where's the urgency almost? You know, that's the question. Where's Manchester United's sense of acting?

12:35Because Matt Woosnam, excuse me, Matt Woosnam, got there in the end. It's been a long day. It's been reported on The Athletic that Crystal Palace are set to sack Pierre Sarg. And they are only a point behind Manchester United, two places below them, propping up the Premier League table. United were a last minute goaling added on time at the end of the match from being level with them on points and just separated by only goal difference. They're acting and Crystal Palace's expectations are way below what United should be. United have got a decision to make. I think I said this on the last podcast, whatever decision it is, they need to make it with a lot more conviction than I think they showed after that Bournemouth game.

13:19Because at that press conference after Bournemouth, I walked out feeling like that would be the last time we'd see Michael Carrick there and that's not the impression that I got today I don't know whether he's had kind of assurances on that whether he just feels that the result and the result against Roma protect him a little bit but there is there is a compelling argument that you know he is ultimately the buck stops with the manager and under his management or head coach United are in the relegation zone you know a lot of this there have been a lot of tactical problems the midfield again I know Carlos Beliba wasn't available but again the lack of mobility in the midfield I've sort of thought it from the starting lineup before the game and again they're getting ran through so easily but then you also have individual errors that again I don't know how you coach for some of those I don't know how you coach for some of those moments but other sides are so do you need a manager who can and then there's you There's been criticism of his in-game management, of his changes.

14:21Today, obviously, his substitutions have a big impact, so we credit him for that. But as much as if you're going to credit him for what has gone right against Villa and what has gone right against Roma, you've also got to attach some credit to him for everything that went wrong today and what went wrong against Roma. And it's, do you think he has the solutions to solve predominantly, I think, the defensive issues? Because United have now remembered how to score a goal. Like, that's a big positive. Need to forget how to concede them. Or they need to just remember how to not concede them stupidly, how to not concede them in quick succession, how to not concede them in the first five minutes.

15:00Teams will score against you, that'll happen, but it shouldn't be happening with the frequency and in the manner that it is at the moment. So the United's execs have got to weigh all this up and decide what they want to do. And if what they want to do is stick with Carrick, I think they need to come at that with more conviction and more kind of explanation of why that decision's been made. Should that result today mean there aren't questions about his immediate future, in your opinion? It's a legitimate question that fans have got. Just look at the league table for that. Fans aren't making the decisions, the people at the club.

15:33And I don't know whether he keeps his job or not. Even now? You sound less certain than us. No, no. I've been given no indication whatsoever that Michael Carrick losing his job is imminent. I've just not. And I wasn't a couple of weeks ago either. I don't get any sense of it from Michael Carrick. I was in the press conference on Friday. You were. I didn't get any sense of it. Not at all. No. But is that right? I mean, I'm not going to sit here now and advocate for Carrick to lose his job, but United are in the relegation zone. United are struggling. United have won just one out of 10 games. They're out of the League Cup.

16:14They've sort of revived themselves to a degree in the Champions League. But again, it's just so far off what it should be. It's miles off what it should be. And it's been like that all season. So you say there was a chance in the last three games. If you're going to judge them last three games since the abomination against Bournemouth. How would you look at that? First half Chelsea, good. Second half, bad. First half Roma, bad. Second half, good. Today was a mixture of everything, wasn't it? It was quarters, really, isn't it? Yeah. If not, it was like the first eighth was terrible. The second eighth was okay.

16:45Third eighth got better. Fourth eighth was great. Fifth eighth, terrible. You look at top-level coaches like Unai Emery, who come to Old Trafford. I'm sort of watching it with 20 minutes to go and thinking, all right, and I wrote it down in my own notes. Villa have settled into a low block now. They've scored four, looking very comfortable against Manchester United. Bang, bang. It's just wild. It was a wild game, wasn't it? Yeah. I don't know what happens with the manager. If Manchester United are going down, then I find it... You can't just say that sentence. Yeah. Can you? I've just said it.

17:26I mean, we're now in November. I don't think now that Manchester United will go down because I think the players are too good. But in 74, when United did go down, that whole season was full of people going, we're too good to go down. And they weren't too good to go down because they did go down. And you got to that Christmas and the leading goal scorer was the goalkeeper back then. Yeah, really, really. Alex Stepnick was the leading goal scorer for Manchester United. How? Because he scored more goals than anyone else.

18:00Thank you. Sorry. Sorry. How many did he score? I think he got like two or three or four. Yeah. Yeah. I never knew that. I thought I knew those things to know about Manchester United. I never knew that he was the top goal scorer at that stage. Big Al, still going strong, leading goal scorer. There's lots of unfortunate parallels. It's just... I didn't think United were going to win that game today. Tommy Doherty took him down, right? So Tommy Doherty took him down. And kept his job. And kept his job. because there was an acceptance that it wasn't on the manager. Well, he blamed it on the bus driver, didn't he?

18:45Don't know who he blamed it on. There was definitely a story about that. Was there? About him always getting them there late for games. Sounds like Jose. And he walked through town. Yeah. And he took them down and the season in the second division was a good one and he brought them back up and almost won the league coming back up. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's a club of the scale of United with the financial resources. I know it's been... It's a different world to them. Yeah. It's a totally different world to them. It should be protected from even entering this kind of conversation. I mean, the people, the managers that have lost their jobs previously in this sort of whirling, you know, fiendish world of Manchester United since the Alex Ferguson era, it was like, you know...

19:28I mean, Ralph Rennick finished sixth. Obviously, that was interim. Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was sort of like, I don't know, eighth, ninth. Ten Hag was a bit lower, wasn't they? Ten Hag was 8th. He finished 8th, but I think the league position was like 14th or something, wasn't it? Obviously, Amarind had finished 15th. So we're talking, you know, none of them have been in the relegation places, but then you do also have this wider context of what is going on at the club besides the head coach. I think we all know that that's not the biggest issue at United, but it's just what, if they are genuinely looking at this as a possibility going down, you'd have to take some kind of action, wouldn't you?

20:06Well, the earlier you take some action the more chance you've got of rescuing the season. I mean, a couple of podcasts ago I would say, I could rescue the season from here, no problem. But there is a quarter in now. So, you know, it's almost getting to the part where you're just rescuing the position let alone the season. You know, the idea of finishing in a European spot becomes more and more distant with every result. Which is where they should be, not just fourth from bottom. Well, this is the thing like, With Michael Carrick, I don't think he is the problem at United. I think there are so many problems.

20:38I don't think he is the problem. Is he the solution? I'm not convinced. And, you know, a lot of, I'm also not, you know, I'm going to sit on the fence and I'm not convinced that sacking him would solve it either, you know? Like, I think that there's a lot of people who say, you know, that's because he's English or it's because he's an ex-player. It's because of the results he achieved last season and what he's shown he can do with this squad. That is why I struggle to go, yeah, no, get him gone. But I also really struggle to look at United in the relegation places and think that that can be an acceptable position for a head coach to keep their job.

21:17So it's a really difficult one. Dandy Mitten standard of quality. Have I said that right? We used to be top four in a trophy. It's not like fourth from bottom. 16 for the last 16 in the FA Cup. I'm sorry. it's just gone right out the window hasn't it it's spun out of control it shouldn't though of course it should not be I know but this should not be allowed to happen and I can't believe that it is happening and yet there doesn't seem to be anything happening well that's why it's obviously not just then on the head coach it's obviously then on the executives that have made these decisions that have brought these players to the club or not brought other players or put Michael Carrick in this position or whatever it is and that's why there's now that focus on Jason Wilcox every game, basically.

22:05And so, because that also goes beyond this one head coach. It goes to Ruben Ammer and it goes to Ten Hag before that. And I know it's a difficult situation that United are in with the financial picture being what it is, but still, it shouldn't be this bad. So that's why you have to ask questions at every single level, obviously from the owners down, but then the owners, they could just keep hold of the club. They're not getting sacked, are they? Well, that's the other thing. There's some things that can't change. You can't sell all the players and buy all new ones in January. If you're the executive team, unless you resign, obviously, but you're not going to change yourselves.

22:39Above you, the ownership, you've got no control over that. Almost the only thing they can do, if they think it's the right thing to do, is change the head coach. It's more than a manager, but the manager is struggling and is underachieving and deserves the scrutiny and criticism that he's getting. A gentleman came up to me before the game today and said he remembered when they went down and what it was like. and he said it was a football issue. There was no talk about a new stadium, about the owners. It was all on the football and he said at least the players were giving it their all back then and there were moments and maybe he's seen it through Rose Tinted Spectacles, United's relegation season.

23:15But I think his point is true that there's so many other things going on and you saw the fans protesting today. Not protesting against the manager, they're cheering the manager, which some people watching this might find weird because you're cheering a manager who's got us up into a relegation position. And I totally accept that. We've kind of explained, though, why Carrick is getting the reaction he's getting from the crowd. They also, I think, aside from that... People are beginning to understand it. Yeah, the history, obviously, is the player. But I think they also, you want to go to football to cheer things.

23:44So who can you cheer? The only person they can really cheer at the moment is the guy that's actually done some stuff for them in his playing days and also, you know, got them third last season. So there's that ability to get behind somebody because otherwise you just go in and show it at everybody, aren't you? And so that's no fun, surely. And hopefully then that starts to foster. I mean, even at the end, though, the players were getting clapped off. The manager was in the middle of them, wasn't he? That was clearly a deliberate choice, wasn't it? Not to be ahead of them and then to allow that switch.

24:13And he was in the midst of it. And even though you had, I think, Zerksy and Cuny at the end as the two going off, they were still clapped off. It wasn't like it turned as soon as he went down. So that, which is mad to say when they are where they are, they've gone 2-0 down twice sorry they've gone two goals down twice in a game with some inexplicable decisions and we should obviously get into some of the details of this game shouldn't we because some of it was crazy but yeah I agree that I thought that was a notable moment from Cary clearly to show that what he said to the players privately that I am in this with you he obviously took on into the pitch in visual form

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27:12All right. Well, obviously that's the situation as we understand it right now with Michael Keep your eyes on The Athletic and our coverage for the very latest on Manchester United across this international break, of course. But you're watching the Talk of the Devils live stream. We are live on The Athletic app. We are live on YouTube. We want you involved, so get involved in the comments. Plenty of you are doing that already. It's brilliant to see so many of you involved and with us, so thank you very much. Right, let's talk about the game because, well, we could be here all night pouring over the details of it.

27:44is that the worst start to a game you've ever seen from Manchester United at Old Trafford? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Two goals. Next question. You sort of gave that some consideration. Like, yeah, I've got a few in my mind. So statistically, it is the worst. Three minutes, 40 seconds. Earliest they've been 2-0 down. Yeah. It was the fact, though, that even throughout the first half, it didn't even feel like they played that badly. They just made horrendous errors to concede goals. and that then happened at the start of the second half. It should have been up. At the end of the first half. I know.

28:15It should have been up. They had plenty of chances. Such an open game. Game of transitions. United were open but so were Villa. If you're going to try and get back into a game doing it against Villa is probably one of your better options. I did say they were gettable, didn't I? Yeah, but you're right. We saw that. I'm not saying that everyone's got it. Alarming to see how United's midfield is passed through. Before we get to the problem of the defenders that just watching it every week. and then mistakes as well. Just big, big mistakes and conceding them goals and then you're watching players and you're having a good game and you're having a good game.

28:51Oh, why have you just done that? And there's just loads of that. And Michael Carrick tends to pick up and accentuate what positives there are and there are positives after every game but it's just the results. The results are making the headlines and rightly so. And yeah, I think Laurie's point there is quite interesting that you go to a game, you want to cheer something. Before the match, people are walking to that ground in an enthusiastic state because they're going to watch a football game. They're not going down a coal mine to work for 20 hours. They want something good to happen. They're almost resetting every week in their mind.

29:25I think they're finding a sense of belonging in protesting as well. I think people are actually coming together for that because it's almost the only thing they can cling on to that everyone's united on at the moment almost. And there's different degrees of that. And I think when they were singing against the Glazers, a lot of the ground stood up. People in the main stand who were never going to be part of any active form of protest, that was their way of showing their dissatisfaction with the situation at the club. But the game, because we started talking about the tactics of it, it's just wildly open.

30:01You just feel that United could be conceding four, five, six goals. They're too easy to score against, simple as. Yeah. conceded four goals at home today. When was the last time that happened? Bournemouth 4-4. Yeah. Last season. Not even that long ago. About a 5-0 defeat, 6-1. Against Deer, forgotten that one. But the very first goal, how can you be slow from, I'm sorry, but Dallow to get out to him. No, he's at fault. He was at fault. Carrick was saying as well that it's not a recurring theme. It is. But it is a recurring theme. That's energy, that's purpose. Maybe the exact detail and the people is not the recurring theme.

30:36But that's almost worse because that means it's everyone. Yeah, and I suppose that's the one bit that you could then maybe say, okay, it's players making awful choices, decisions, whatever. And obviously, Lomans as well for that. And then the second goal, you can kind of start to ask questions of. Yeah, it's got to do better. Is that pressure? It could be pressure, yeah. I don't know. He over-exceeded everyone's expectations last season. It's perhaps now just reverting to... Like the team. Well, yeah, I guess so, yeah. Yeah, to be fair. and I can say he had one season in Belgium's top flight before joining United so this isn't to dig him out at all, it's kind of saying that's probably where he's at really.

31:17So in terms of Dalo playing left-back, because obviously he had Masrawi on, could you have switched, after the way the Roma game went, could you have taken him out of being at left-back and put him over on the right? I don't know if that would have necessarily changed too much. It felt like Masrawi had a job to do on Manzambi and actually did it all right to be fair because he wasn't really an architect of any of the moments for United, but clutching a little bit, to be honest. And I suppose if you're trying to keep it as samey as you had, it's not disrupting too much if you're saying, well, because you had Maguire shifting from right side to left with Yoro.

31:50Well, the last time that back four were in the pitch together was Leeds away and Maserawi played centre-back, Yoro right-back, Deleu left-back. So it was a rejigging of that, which was then putting Yoro at centre-back, Maserawi at right-back. so at least there's someone in position there's only Maguire in position in theory at Ellen Road But what irritated me so much from Roma and today as well is the inability to learn from mistakes so the two goals that Roma scored in quick succession I was saying to my dad after the game if you walk out the room and you walk back in and you saw the second goal being scored you'd think it was a replay and then it's similar again tonight it's not as close situationally but it's the same mistake of not closing down a shot fast enough.

32:33And then it's a similar thing by, well, not similar, but it's another error by Lomans. First, he lets the first one go through him too easily and then he fails to hold the second. Both come from initially failing to close down a shot, failing to put enough pressure on the ball. It's like, where is the self-correction? Where is the correction from the touchline? Yeah, but also where is the self-correction on the pitch to note that these errors keep happening? in the space of minutes. It's confidence that, isn't it? I think confidence dips. But where's the leadership on the pitch today? I really felt that on a couple of occasions.

33:05Lammond makes a really bad start to that game. He needs an arm round him for me. He needs someone to actually... It didn't even look like anyone even spoke to him. He needs someone. No one's going to have any sympathy for this, but that was an honours issue. He felt that when he had a terrible game in Galatasaray, he was just left by himself. You might say, well, we're leaving you by yourself because we've just gone out of Europe because you've had a terrible game. It's a tough one. You think about Peter Schmalker back in the day, he wouldn't want that, would he? He'd be barking orders at you to get out or whatever.

33:36I think today, maybe I'm being... I don't know, maybe it's too much, but it felt to me at that moment like he just needed someone. Even with Dallow, right? I know Old Trafford's reaction. I heard it. I've seen the comments. I've heard the way people have spoke about him for a long time. I don't think any of us want a Manchester United player to go through that. No matter what we think of him, the level of reaction to him coming off was pretty unpleasant, to be honest. I'm sure that is a product of just how frustrated people are. The errors that he made were really poor, unquestionably. But even in that, where's the captain or one of the leaders of the team running over to him and supporting him in that?

34:17Because that is such a lonely place to be. Well, the last time that happened, I think, from right to say, Xerxi, and Fernandes went down. and he was in the director's box. He was injured, I think. Could be Spencewood. Went down to the... Because he walked off Circus and he went down to the dressing room and basically said, come on, you need to get back out there. And was kind of like supportive, but also cajoling a bit, you know, that kind of vibe. So yeah, so I agree with you that it can certainly have... And that was more visceral, wasn't it? You could, I mean, for him to go down to the dressing room is different than Dallow kind of coming off the pitch.

34:45And he's a much younger player and he's a lot less experienced. And Dallow certainly owns... Dallow is a very vocal presence at Carrington in dressing rooms. after games. He's kind of, he's having himself, I would say, in terms of what he wants to, and it's, it's, I think his essence is good. Like he works hard, he trains hard. He's kind of like that prototype player that you'd want. And that's why he keeps getting picked by, you know, managers subsequently. Although it's kind of interesting because when Solskjaer was manager, so obviously Carrick was coach there, he obviously went out on loan to AC Milan.

35:18And I'm not sure Solskjaer was totally having him as like, I think he wanted more more fire in his personality and I think he's probably developed that actually in recent years it's just those mistakes and the penalty one is just the more frustrating one even maybe for me because it feels like a choice you've made there to do that to make that tackle when it's I don't know are you tired like what what is it a bit of a reaction to the way that you started the first half you know I was too passive there I need to be more active here but then it was a problem Alisson. He caused Dallow a problem. He's a good player.

35:50From the first minute. Yeah. He's decent. I think the Dallow thing is he is the main scapegoat for United fans now. He did not have a good game today at all. We interviewed him after the Roma game and we published it on the Wednesday and the comments were horrific. Why are you even speaking to him? What do you want me to not do my job? Xerxe, I think there was a guilty feeling from a lot of United fans that night and then responded in the next game. I don't think we're going to get that with Deleuze. I just think... We're also at this period aren't we with fans where they feel like they've been badly treated understandably so.

36:32So that kind of the warmth or the sympathy that you might naturally have is eroding because you feel like you're being treated badly by the power of the day. The number of people I've heard say you treat me like that I'll treat you like this. But Deleuze's not choosing ticket No he's not. He's not. but I've spoke to footballers non-man United well he was very strong to that question he was asked a question after the game yeah basically yeah they need him I suppose as well don't they with the shortage at full back not if you're making mistakes like that but if Dogu's back I guess he can start oh super Patrick Dogu fantastic today when he came on wasn't he he was good to be fair he was he did really well I mean what more can he do nearly won the game score won the game score well score one assisted one score one of the Arsenal goals Yeah, linking up with Super Josh.

37:18So, you know, you can find a way out of this. Shea Lacey with the cross that won the corner for the equaliser as well. Carrick's subs, I think, you know, there's a lot of stuff that he's got wrong this season. There's stuff he got wrong today, but I think those deserve a little bit of credit. You know, he's been criticised for not being proactive enough with his subs. And today, I think he got them pretty well right with what he could, what he had on the bench, which isn't necessarily loads. I just didn't see it coming. No. At 4-2, I thought they were going to go on. I said to you at half-time, didn't I?

37:51I said, you can guarantee this, they're going to win this game. He offered me a guarantee. I'm bringing it up. I'm not even letting you have that one. I think he said 300 quid, but I might have misheard that. Did we call it quits for a draw? Yeah. An injury time equaliser. That's how desperate we are. Just please guarantee, Laurie, that you can have an influence on us. It felt, though, at 4-2, it had gone, didn't it? it felt as the match ebbed away a lot of fans left at 85 minutes didn't there's a chance listen obviously people have got their own things to get to and what have you it's getting on but places to get to did you say it's getting on in the day people left because we're 4-2 down with 10 minutes to go I'm just getting my come for me they're entitled to leave if they want but like it just it felt that after the Roma game they had places to be places to be a bed um the pub I imagine yeah after that to be fair you'd need a one after that wouldn't you um yeah but I think that they you know Roma having happened you should always have that hope even though it did look it did look distant at that point I asked Mason Mount after the game he should have scored by the way oh you told him that go on sorry I left that off um I was asking him if he thinks they're robust because a robust team doesn't collapse to a two goal deficit after four minutes but then a team who isn't robust doesn't fight back in the way they did to be back level and then a robust team doesn't start a second half like that especially after fighting so hard to come back but then a team that's not robust doesn't then come back to draw four all I'm trying to work out what's the truest sense of where we're at is it the team that's two no down and four two down are the team that's fighting back to 2-2 and 4-4, even though that's not actually winning even.

39:39There are massive contradictions, but they're in the relegation zone as well. Yep. And Mount Comeon, he nearly scored. He actually made a great run with Bruno Fernandes to nearly score. United make too many mistakes, concede too many goals. and today, right at the start, and right at the start of the second half, conceded twice. You just cannot believe what you're watching except it's been that bad that you can now believe what you're watching. Just too many mistakes. Individual errors, collective errors. The confidence levels do not look high. And yet, they can somehow rally themselves to finish very strongly.

40:25and it was almost a win, almost. That comeback, just couldn't see it coming at all. They've got a point. Viewed in isolation with the game, and we say this every week, there's loads of merit, but we can't view it in isolation because of where we are in the season now. We just can't. Yeah, and there's two weeks now to sit and look at that league table, isn't there? And that's a killer, isn't it? like you wanted a bit of hope a bit of like joy a bit of enjoyment to go in with and it's you know a comeback at Old Trafford should be that like two late goals should be that and if United a if United are drawing 4-4 with Aston Villa after a stupid game like that and you sat in the top I don't know half of the table top five then you it wasn't that mad that was fun I really enjoyed watching a mad game like that you can't enjoy it like or at least i don't know maybe some people can find enjoyment in that i found enjoyment in a moment of it and then i just went 18th or 19th whichever it is like you can't you know you wanted to go into this break with a little bit of momentum i think there is maybe a bit of momentum from the last two games i think it's better but it's not enough like it's just not enough over and over and over again and Michael Carrick again today was talking about moments letting them down and I remember him saying that before the last international break and this is the problem like I think most of United's games this season with a few exceptions you can view in isolation and go okay I can see the moment that's cost you there or the handful of moments or decisions that have cost you taken across a stretch of 10 Premier League games, however many games it is in all competitions now, 30 goals conceded in all competitions, loads of those caused by their own errors.

42:21You can't view it in isolation anymore. Even individual mistakes become a collective problem at that point. Yeah, I mean, the comments are coming in thick and fast still, Laurie. A lot of them saying that we're being too kind on Michael Carrick. A couple of people said if he had a different passport or a different history maybe would we be judging the situation differently but if if he doesn't he has what he has so he did what he does as a player and he did what he did as a head coach in the last season I'm I've never even with Ruben Amren and you know other managers I've always kind of been of the opinion there's other issues at the club so you've got to be I don't know open to the prospects of it turning round I would say if you if you're seeing you signs of some encouragement.

43:04But I think you have to take everything as it is without suggesting that if things were a different way, then we'd be talking differently. But I accept that relegation is not acceptable. And I think we've discussed the fact that that is obviously inviting questions on his job and he could lose it. I don't really know what people want us to say other than that. I don't distinguish on anyone's nationality at Manchester United and they never have done.

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45:31To take it a slightly different way, Jim Cahill is asking, would Bayern Munich or Real Madrid be keeping their manager if they'd won one game in 10? No, no. No, they wouldn't. They wouldn't. And Manchester United are keeping them. Bayern Munich or Real Madrid would probably be getting rid of their manager if they were sixth in the table. But we're not Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. We're in the Premier League, not making any excuses for them. the rules are slightly different. But there's also been a decline at Manchester United and maybe declining expectations as well from fans of what is acceptable.

46:11I don't even think they're meeting declined expectations right now. I don't want to salute. So you're saying all the comments here are sacked the manager now. Not all of them. But the majority. There's a good number. Get rid of it. There's a good number. Yeah. Want to get rid of the manager now. I think people are entitled to have that opinion. there's quite a few people who are saying in fairness that there's a lot wrong with Manchester United there's obviously a lot of anger towards the ownership right now we saw with the protests it's been a loud theme for a long time Ineos now getting far more scrutiny than before and a lot of anger with the way that they're making decisions at the moment the players clearly but Michael Carrick also deserves his share of scrutiny within that and criticism and he's getting it And he should get it because he's the first team manager.

47:00And if Manchester United were top, he'd be getting praised as well. I think we've judged him fairly. Do you want me to start sitting there screaming, saying he's got to go? No, I want you to say what you think and what you know from the insight that you have of the way that the club operates, the standards of the past, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know whether he's going to keep his job or not, using all my contacts right now, if you're asking me. Don't know whether that's going to happen or not. Would I sack Michael Carrick? I feel really awkward because I don't think it's my decision to make that.

47:35You've been the same with every manager that we've spoken about. I think I've been quite supportive of managers. The last six years. I have sympathy for managerial positions. I think that managers deserve time to do a job. I think I've said about pretty much everyone. Yeah. That's just me. I think managers should be supported. I think it's a very complex job, a very complex club. But Michael Carrick at the moment is failing as a Manchester United manager. Well, this is the lowest United have been. Yeah. If we're going to judge it on just the league table alone. And so you change him and you get, I spoke to a sports director at a big club last week and he said, I met you in April, Andy, and I told you United are going to struggle this year.

48:18And I checked back through and actually he did do. Did he guarantee it? he sorry not like you he said you've changed the manager now he said you bring someone else in you get your 15 game bounce and then the same thing happens again and again and again and so I'm just reluctant not that I'm making the decision and who do you bring in as well now there's always a flavour of the month isn't there well it's not going to be Una Emery that's pretty certain Una Emery is an excellent manager but you could see even how at United that would there would be issues there like for him to go down the tunnel when the game was still going on.

48:54He thought the game was over, Laurie. I don't know what you mean. Well, okay. Yes, sure. It wasn't. You know, the scrutiny that he'll get at United would be far in excess of what he gets at Villa. And fine, maybe you want a bit of passion. And what he's done in his career, he's absolutely brilliant. The trophies that he's won at clubs that are of that scale and he's punching above his weight. And obviously then at PSG and Arsenal, maybe there was more difficulties there. He's been at his best as an underdog, I think. Yeah. Magic United are underdogs right now. He's very happy. Yeah, that's the thing.

49:26You look at him there today at Old Trafford in that circumstance. I know he walked down the touchline. It's clearly out of frustration. But actually, when you look at his record at Old Trafford, one of our colleagues from the Athletic, Colin Miller, shared this. He says, Unai Emery has managed eight matches as an away team at Old Trafford in English football. His team have had seven different leads against Mourinho, Solskjaer, Ten Hag, Amarin, and now Carrick. and Emery has not won any of those games. So he's been there eight times, been ahead seven times against five different managers and not one.

49:59But he won in Gdansk in the final. Yeah. And that's when I'm not... Sorry. That should be banned with Bill Bowne, shouldn't it? Yeah. Filler have won three times in 60 games at Old Trafford. Very close to four today. Look, I think he's doing a decent job there. I spoke to one of his staff members after the game. I saw you having a little chat. I know him. nice and cosy by the touchline yeah I know him just checking out whether he was interested yeah I know him I mean where's he from that gentleman you know you told me I've known him for a long time a couple of years ago no it's usually where it starts isn't it admit an anecdote a couple of years ago me and him we were the guests at a summer soccer camp somewhere really yeah really ok the local mayor gave us like a glass tank card I thought if you're joking what's this for We may just ask me to come along.

50:52Tell some stories about being a journalist. And who's this, mate? Well, he works for, well, everywhere with Unai Emery, basically. I'm just saying hello to him. It's fair to say he's settled at Villa, isn't it? Yes. With his family in Birmingham, as are his staff. A week ago, we would have probably been talking more up about Unai Emery, wouldn't we? Yeah. I think that is it, isn't it, then? So the options. So United have been interested, then? I mean United like Unai Emery I think we wrote that last year didn't we I think when I'm trying to remember which managerial change it was was it Ten Hag Take Your Pick yeah or was it maybe it was Emery when he was sort of on the ropes a bit I think it was Ten Hag before Emery got appointed around then so anyway he's been a name that has been I would say proposed to United they like him because he's a good manager he does Villa fans were singing 10 more years 10 more years so you can see how much they're And he's finalising a new contract, as our colleague Jacob Tanswell's reported on The Athletic.

51:53So I think it's safe to say that he's not going anywhere. I think this is sort of the context which I guess I would always bring to any manager chat. If you're telling me, sat the head coach, who do you want instead? I think that's the question that has to be asked. and I'm not really convinced by most of the options on the market. I get that. And this is why you come back to the people who are in these positions at the club. You want to have full faith in these people to make the decisions on our behalf because we shouldn't be the ones who decide whether Manchester United's manager stays or goes.

52:33We shouldn't be the ones who decide the next manager. So that's where you get to a moment here where they're also being questioned. There's almost less faith in them coming from the stands than in the man who's actually in charge at the moment. That's a huge issue. I think if you change character, you have to really seriously look at other people around it. I don't think it would have to, I don't think it could just end there, to be honest. I think you'd have to really scrutinise everything. What would Sir Jim Radcliffe's view be, do you think? Hard to say in some ways, but... He's certainly attuned to the situation, shall we say.

53:07And again, you can question, well, should he be making these decisions? Because, you know, the decisions that he's made... background to be making football decisions. Exactly. But he is making football decisions. He's being involved. Yeah, being involved. Yeah, I would be very certain that he's not happy at the current situation. What that then translates as, let's see, I suppose, in the weeks to come. But yeah, in terms of the options, none of them, it's not like you go. I mean, maybe you'd think Antonio Conte is then the ambitious choice and the guy that's done it before he'd command respect but he'd come in with a total shock and then how long would it last?

53:51It feels like United have really tried to be and we've wanted them to be a team that's building year after year towards something growing gradually like Mikel Arteta obviously did with Arsenal when people were calling for his head at Arsenal by the way they'd finished eighth in his first season eighth in his second full season and then they'd lost the first three games of that season, hadn't they? So, okay, fine. It, again, took a bit more time and it's maybe a different scenario but he was, he'd only been assistant to Pep Guardiola at City before going and becoming the Arsenal manager. It's like a hell of a step really when you think about it and so I think that's why I've always got this sort of thought in my mind of just, I know that the relegation places at this stage in the season is not acceptable at all for Manchester United but I've always got that slight thought of it could potentially turn, like I say, we saw with Carrick last season.

54:46I know it was one game a week and it was a different scenario but you obviously got performances out of these players. The one game a week thing has been that pivotal with how the start of this season has gone, the fact that it's not just one game a week anymore. I think the injuries that then maybe have been brought about because of that, maybe. Have we done? I don't think it's been... They lost at Hull. Exactly. This is the thing that everyone thought would be the issue and I think it has been... I'm not saying it's not had an impact, obviously, like physical and mental fatigue and the travel and I'm sure it has contributed to some of the injuries, but not all of them.

55:25And things were going badly wrong before the Champions League kicked into gear, you know? I'm not convinced that that has been the change. Yeah, exactly. Bad all season. Repeat patterns. They played well in Atletico Madrid, but again, they conceded a goal after 10 seconds or whatever it was. We've seen the same thing happen. It's far too fragile defensively, isn't it? Yeah. I keep going back to how I felt. We drove there together that day, didn't we? How we felt. We keep saying that as well. Yeah. Sorry. Nearly mentioned it as many times as he on his famous trip to Braga or wherever it was to see Ruben Amarine.

55:57Great road trip, that. Yeah. How we felt on the way to that game. How did you get there? I drove with Laurie. How we felt going to that game and the optimism there was, Kerris, after the end of last season and the way Manchester United have played, the fact that no team had taken more points than them in the period since Kerry could come in and what we expected. And there's going to be a lot of people saying, well, we told you so because of the transfer window and whatever else. Fair point now and I guess that's been proven right over time. But it did not feel like this was going to be the situation.

56:31you would have not been able to convince me in any way, shape or form that a quarter of the way into this season Manchester United would be in the relegation zone I still feel surreal even saying that it doesn't seem real, yet it is it's a nightmare, isn't it? Yeah, and I think the players are I think the players and the head coach are better than this they showed they were better than this last season which I remember talking after Hull to one of my friends who's a Liverpool fan but has redeeming qualities. And he was saying, you know, how did, you know, taking the mick about Holland, he said, are you worried?

57:09I was like, not that worried because I know that this team under this head coach can play so much better than that, that initially I thought, okay, there is massive issues here. And, you know, you touched on your piece from that game about the issues with like a back five, with playing against low blocks, with intensity, directness. But I still thought that felt to me at the time more likely to be an anomaly than the start of a pattern and it has turned out to be the start of a pattern you know I did not think when I moved on to covering United this season that this is where we would be in November it feels I think you're right it feels really surreal and what I think what feels even more surreal about it is that it's very hard to pinpoint exactly what has gone wrong because there are so many problems that the solution, to me at least, in my mind, I know to a lot of people in the comments and a lot of people, the solution, they will think it's clear, but I don't think it's clear.

58:06If you change manager, would it change? I think it would actually because I think that's what managers bring in with the cliches that come with it and what happens is the manager comes in and everyone goes, he spoke really well in the press conference, didn't he? And then... Shook everyone's hands. Yeah, shook everyone's hands, you know. And then the following week, he's banned chips in the canteen, not that they have chips in the canteen. There is such a thing as a new manager bounce, but I share... Well, Carrick brought it, didn't he? That's probably Solskjaer. These are good examples of it.

58:40But I am circumspect like you are. And whoever comes in is still working with the same group of players. I don't think the players have actually given up on the manager. I don't think there's this revolt. revolt I think some will have questions which is legitimate well the mood's massively different now after the game yeah than it was even two or three matches come out that was the that was the low point at which I thought maybe the players have given up on the manager yeah and the last two games have changed my mind on that a bit I don't I'm not saying the dressing room is perhaps all as fully behind him as maybe they were last season but it doesn't feel to me as though they of kind of like to use the phrase like down tools or that they're like trying to play to get the manager sacked.

59:22That's not how it feels to me, which leaves that that is just how badly they're playing, which is in a way even more concerning. So I had to get out of it. I said I couldn't say where out of it before. I still think it'd be really difficult. Injuries start to ease, but we're saying that at the moment where they're really bad. This team's not got a striker. Harry Maguire going off half-time was a blow, I think, as well. I know he's not everyone's cup of tea, but I think what he's done in recent games is bring the ball out and have that sort of purpose about him and obviously Marshall, you know, set piece and things like that.

59:55So does, I don't know, does the Lenny Yarrow thing happen? I don't know, they're all making errors. Yeah. They're all making errors. Maguire made a bad error before the penalty the other night as well, which didn't really get spoken about. There's too many errors I've forgotten. Clearing the ball, just clearing his lines from the box. He didn't manage to get the ball that far away from where they were. We don't know when a lot are coming back either, do we? in the press conference the other day. He doesn't really want to give detail, does he, Michael? Which makes you worry even more. So do you go to market in January if Michael Carrick's still in charge in January?

1:00:27I think you go to market in January either way, do you not? I think the start of this season has exposed how thin the squad is and how many areas need... It's because clearly... Sorry, Chris. It just, obviously, Matthijs Delikt coming back and that was like, okay, well, so then at the start of the season, and you've got Aidan Heaven, Lenny Yarrow, Harry Maguire, Lezandro Martinez, Matthias De Ligt as your five centre-backs. But the reality of that is it was more fragile. And I think a lot of people did appreciate that and warn about that, I suppose, in terms of young players developing for a start that have not shown yet that absolute stability, certainly not to play every week and do well.

1:01:07Aging players and then De Ligt's injury. Clearly, if you're not coming on in this situation, when we saw him start in Como, I know, I thought that today as well. And he was not at that, not the speed I think that you need. He's been out for a year, so that's a bit of a concern really. What situation would he then be playing in? Yeah, he needs minutes, doesn't he? One thing we haven't mentioned and we should do before we finish is your piece this week about an address that was given back in the summer, was it? September. In September, where basically it was made clear that, again, the sporting performance of Manchester United doesn't necessarily impact the commercial power of the club which is not what anyone wants to hear I don't think yeah so it was Avram Glazer speaking rare engagement it has to be said and some people when I was sort of trying to figure out exactly what it all meant sort of I lent on people that were much more intelligent than me to try and figure it all out but they would perhaps say it's interesting that he's even speaking at this because why why speak um so it's the deutsch bank uh sports investment conference the inaugural one uh no less um starring role um and they so yeah basically it's financiers it's people that are in the investment world why is he speaking well does that open the door to investment you know is that what he's kind of doing there you know sort of putting the united out in that kind of way because um the it was a question to him and he was basically saying that clubs the scale of Manchester United are kind of protected from the vagaries of sporting success or failure because they've got this heritage they've got this massive global brand already and so yeah it doesn't necessarily impact the commercial revenue the commercial pull of the club and compared them to the New York Yankees and the Dallas Cowboys to obviously massive sporting institutions franchises the most valuable actually Dallas Cowboys according to Forbes 17 billion worth, which sounds absolutely mental.

1:03:11And they haven't won a Super Bowl since 1995. The New York Yankees haven't won the World Series since 2009. Both are at the top of those lists, though, overall. So you can see the equivalent with United, 20 league titles, last of them being in 2013. Exactly. I don't think it's true. In terms of what, Abraham, I hope the story's true. No, it's true. It's coming for me here, really. I think if the team are doing really well, then the commercial opportunities increase exponentially. You're definitely right. I think they are, in terms of, you know, Sevilla are never going to match United, I don't think, for commercial.

1:03:47Careful. I'm just saying. Never say never. Okay, it'd take decades for them to win a lot of trophies, I would say, to get that. The heritage, the story, like, you know, there's a romance to United, I would say, that is appealing to people. But I agree with you that within that, you've got Barcelona, Real Madrid, Liverpool, or surpassing United for that kind of revenue. And so I agree with you, it's wrong. And obviously it's just, it's a kind of depressing thought really when you think that that is the mindset of somebody at the top of the club who really what it should be about is sporting success.

1:04:22It shouldn't be about the bottom line and how much sponsorships you can still attract, whatever. Edward Wood said something similar. I spoke about him years after and he said he shouldn't have said, he didn't mean it like that. He just felt it had been badly interpreted. Sometimes your subconscious comments tell you more than your conscious ones. Yeah, yeah. And Laurie used the word shelter. And I asked the people who've lost their job at United if they feel sheltered in recent years. Manchester United's star is dimming and that's partly because of the way the club has been run. you look globally and you see the number of Manchester United shares and I get this anecdotally and the numbers are decreasing globally and that's not the be all and end all and success will always attract converts but it's much easier when United are in a stronger position they struck commercial deals after the end of last season because we're going back into the Champions League and if they were to go down which they're not going to do because we've agreed that sort of then certain commercial deals would have to be rewritten and it's much, much easier.

1:05:34It's this virtuous circle of success following success and United are so far off that at the moment. It's a pretty sad situation that we're in and I get that there's a lot of anger and a lot of frustration and I feel like myself. I feel totally conflicted and what have I seen today? Wow, that was amazing. No, it wasn't. What are you on about? It's not good, is it? No. We should just say, actually, there was a new banner wasn't in the Stretford end we don't need a new stadium we need new owners so again there's a growing sentiment there's going to clearly be more messages there was a consistent theme throughout wasn't it against again the owners and the current state of the club You can see this stadium becoming a bit of a focal point for kind of a little culture war in United's fan base almost I think you saw it when they published the stadium consultation I think a day or two after a really poor result why are you publishing that now?

1:06:28I think it's already that. Yeah, I think so. I think it's already got to that point. And to chant quite openly like that, and then the banner as well. I mean, nobody's happy with this at the moment, are they? No matter which way you look. Nobody's happy. The banner makers might be? Sorry. True. Banner sellers. The stadium is also like, what it basically is, in my mind, is a symbol of sort of a project that Ineos want and that the hierarchy want. and the fans are like, we don't want what you want. We don't trust you to get it right. We don't trust you to spend the right money on it when we're not seeing the money that we want necessarily being put into the team.

1:07:09And the stadium has become like a focal point for that. And I think that's, I can understand how that's happened. Okay, let's leave it there. Then we've done pretty much an hour, I think, of the live stream on YouTube today. I'm the Athletic Cat. This has been the Talk of the Devils live stream. thank you so much everyone for joining us despite the game even though it was a draw in the end but it does leave Manchester United in the relegation zone heading into the November international break which is just an absolutely ridiculous statement but there I've said it Laurie, Kerry, Sandy thank you so much for being with us here in the studio thank you again for everyone joining as well and we'll speak to you during this international break there'll still be your usual dose of talk the devils so stay with us and we'll bring you whatever insight we can across this break but for the moment thank you very much and we'll see you in the next one.

1:07:55Take care. Bye-bye.

1:08:21The Athletic FC.

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