LIVE: Man United finalising Pochettino deal if Carrick departs

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1:47This is Talk the Devils. We are live on YouTube reacting to the exclusive news broken by the Athletic in the last hour that Manchester United are lining up Mauricio Pochettino to replace Michael Carrick. Laurie and Andy are here. We also have a special guest as well, David Ornstein joining us, who's worked on this story with Laurie and Adam Crafton this morning, broken the news, then jumped on Talk to the Devils. That's the way we like it, Orny. So thank you for joining us. Welcome along, everyone, as well. Obviously, joining us in the comments too. Get involved and thank you very much, as always for being with us.

2:22So let's get into it then, David. What is the news this morning? Because this is a fast-moving situation again for United. Yeah, thanks for having me in. Straight to the point, Man United are in the process of finalising a deal to appoint Maurizio Pochettino as their new head coach. That's subject to executing a decision to remove Michael Carrick from the position. We reported a couple of days ago that United intended to relieve Carrick of his duties and that has led to a bit of an uncertainty in the public because he's still leading training and continuing in his role but it's pretty evident that that was whether you like it or not to allow Manchester United time to sort out their contingency planning a replacement and it seems that that replacement has been identified for a little bit of time, actually, in Pochettino.

3:18At least there were some soundings, I believe, a couple of weeks ago as to his situation to learn and understand the conditions from Manchester United's perspective. There's a$10 million approximately release clause in his contract with the US men's national team, a little bit more for his staff as well. I can actually reveal that I think they'll need to be paid by Pochettino rather than Manchester United. So there's some work to be done on that front. But the talks are at an advanced stage between Manchester United and Maurizio Pochettino's representative. They're going through the terms. They were yesterday, Tuesday.

3:55And no problems are anticipated on that front. I don't think finances will be an issue because Maurizio Pochettino wants that role so much. And then it's just contingent on executing, as we said, final decisions on Michael Carrick. And we know the direction of travel on that. We know that Manchester United's sporting leadership, so that's Jason Wilcox, Omar Barada, have essentially made this call. But it needs to be ratified, approved by ownership. So Jim Ratcliffe in sporting control of the club and essentially the Glazer family, too, because they're still majority owners, shareholders. and then I think we could see we are seeing this develop pretty rapidly the intention would be for Pochettino to bring all of his trusted staff with him so there'll be some logistics to work out on that front he's got two games with the USA that he's scheduled to play and we're not exactly sure how that will pan out there are some steps that need to be gone through knowing his character he would be up for doing those games and then coming across but the US soccer may decide if this gathers pace that they just let him go and then he can sort of travel over and get going in his new job.

5:07Manchester United are yet to contact US soccer but they are aware of the situation because I'm of the understanding that Pochettino has kept them abreast of the interest, the approach and so it's no great shock on that front and this latest chapter the Manchester United managerial merry-go-round is about to enter its latest phase.

5:30David Ornstein: You mentioned there that Pochettino might have to pay himself. I hope he can get an advance from United or something there, Dave. I know these things often are a little bit tricky with buyouts and things like that, but hopefully they can give him a loan up front. But yeah, I mean, just can you talk us a little bit about, because I know we've been discussing this in the last few days, yourself and I and Adam, how it actually comes to be that we can kind of report this news, because obviously it's a big moment for United. And how do you feel it kind of reflects, I suppose, when you have got Carrick, you know, he's turned up at Carrington again today to take training again today.

6:02David Ornstein: How do you think that sort of squares? Yeah, would you mind just giving us a little bit of a window into your working practices, which obviously are exemplary? Yeah, with pleasure. We were across the Michael Carrick situation early on Monday morning. I think it was around 9am that I got wind that Man United were making a coaching change. That was their decision. We didn't actually publish on that until almost 10pm, by which point the likes of Jamie Jackson at the Guardian and others had got that sort of news out. And so you're working on this sort of round the clock already at that point and looking into what they're doing in terms of alternative plans, because at that stage, myself, you, Adam, were led to believe that Manchester United had somebody lined up, had somebody in mind at the very least.

6:51they would have a new manager in place. And sources were indicating that in an ideal world for United, that manager will be in place for Liverpool once the international break is done. So you keep making your checks. Obviously, Pochettino had jumped to the top of the bookmaker's odds by that point, which is often a reflection of reality, not always. And then you start speaking to your contacts, your sources. And it was made very clear to me that if nothing else, By process of elimination, you can get, even if you're not privy to real information, that Pochettino is the man that is pretty much the realistic option because my understanding is that, I don't know, in no particular order, Unai Emery is ungettable at this point in time because he's going to be signing a new contract with Aston Villa.

7:42I think Manchester United did look into it. We can report that. And it was pretty clear to them that it was unachievable. Fabian Herzler, admiration at Old Trafford, looked into it, wasn't achievable. Who else? Antonio Conte, a lot of rumours, not aware of any contact on that front, despite him being ready to potentially step into the breach. Eddie Howe, tons of rumours on him, but I don't think there was any meaningful movement on that one. No contact or serious communication in that direction. Didier Deschamps, I think, was one that was mooted and very quickly dissipated. Nagelsmann is a name that I think has been mentioned internally, but Manchester United didn't activate on that one.

8:29And so that's why people were saying to us, it's Pochettino. Then, sorry, fast forward to yesterday and last night in particular. You start to get wind from your contacts that this one is developing quickly. You're in the same position as me, so is Adam. and so you make sure you cross-reference your information and try and establish that, one, this really is the case and then, two, where it's up to, where it's going next. You check on all sides with every sort of area involved, in this case, Pochettino, US soccer, Manchester United and obviously with the time difference to the USA, that kept us up through the night and doing our diligence to make sure that this is in position and then it got to the point this morning where you've just got to execute because this is happening.

9:14And I know a lot of people have said this is farcical in terms of Michael Carrick and everybody's entitled to their opinion on that. I would also say that Manchester United, whether you like it or not, would have wanted to get their plan in place and know that they've got it before pulling the trigger. And that does sound quite brutal, but there is a world in which a club would have had to continue with their coach if they didn't get a plan lined up. It's not nice for Michael Carrick, But actually, he's also a grown man and he loves Manchester United. He was never going to walk away from it. All credit to him on that front.

9:49I'm sure he's a bit annoyed by this situation and how it's played out publicly. But at the same time, it's not the first such situation like this in football. It won't be the last. And now will be about the final steps. There's this meeting in Monaco today where I guess it wasn't. That's not why they were in Monaco. but it has happened that it will be a convenient place to be for Carrick's departure to be rubber-stamped and Pochettino's arrival to be confirmed. And then let the fun and games begin again. That's one way of putting it. Thank you for the detail on that, David. It's fascinating to get the different insights on the different candidates that were maybe considered and also the latest on Pochettino.

10:30I mean, Andy, there is a key line in the reporting from Laurie and David and Adam as well on The Athletic. if an ultimate decision is taken to relieve Michael Carrick of his duties. Has this decision been definitely made? And if it has, then why hasn't it been communicated to Michael Carrick yet? I know David said there about having a plan in place, but it doesn't seem great for him to be going into training with all this swirling in the background. Because they want to do it face-to-face. It's as simple as that. And it's not great at all. And it's very unfortunate for Michael Carrick. It's sad for Michael Carrick.

11:02He is an adult. He's a football manager. he knows that it's about getting results and one winning 10 in the Premier League is not good enough he's aware of the situation I think if Manchester United would have been able to control it the story would not have got out there but journalists have got to do their job and get the story out there and as David said on Monday that started to pick up and then by Monday night we were doing a live stream podcast about this I think Omar Barada wants to do it face to face and I'm sure he would like to do it without all the noise that's going on but look this is Manchester United there's always going to be a lot of noise I'm glad David said about those managers because I could have I found no evidence at all of any conversations with with Nagelsmann Eddie Howe Conte so I'm seeing all these stories and I'm thinking I cannot find any evidence of it and you don't know whether you're right or wrong but I'm glad that David has said that and it's it's there'll be a lot of sympathy for Michael Carrick but as David and Laurie said he will be able to return to just being a Manchester United fan maybe it's too raw for him to come back you know I don't think Olly Gunnar Solskjaer has been back to Old Trafford since he he lost his job I think he's been maybe once and Michael Carrick had a season ticket a year ago he lives locally his son plays for the team a year ago he was at Carrington most days he was just outside the building he was waiting for his son and since January he's been inside the building making all these key decisions it's going to be a tough time for him it's a tough time for any human when they lose the job and for his coaching staff as well and some of them are really highly regarded as well will they be incorporated into the coaching staff at the club there's all sorts of questions will it just be a clean break there you go payoff another payoff even more money spent by Manchester United paying managers off the total of all them in recent years is eye-watering but what do you do Manchester United are currently in a relegation zone it simply could not carry on like this And it's not just on Michael Carrick as well.

12:58That's why the supporters have been singing his name. They appreciate there are other problems and serious issues at Manchester United. Yeah, we'll talk a bit more about obviously the United aspect a little bit later on in the stream with you, Andy and Laurie. But David, we're going to have to let you go in a moment because you've got all the work to be getting on and breaking news elsewhere. But before you go, just from a US men's national team perspective, how likely do you think it is that he's going to take these games against Haiti? The first one on Saturday, the second one is Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, UK time.

13:31I mean, that would cause an issue for United, clearly. So how do you see that playing out? Yeah, not going to lie, I've got no idea other than to say that the speed at which these things tend to develop and the willingness, I think, subject to the finances, the clause being met of the US Federation to cooperate means that I wouldn't say it's by any means certain that he will do those matches. That's kind of their gift in a way. This is completely different to Ruben Amarin, where Verandas at Sporting Club was absolutely determined he'd do two more matches and the fee was a set amount. That was quite, I think, a tough negotiation.

14:16And Man United had to wait 20 odd days or something like that. I don't think they're going to be in that position this time round. and I'm not underestimating the importance of the US matches which is why Pochettino's character will be, I'm told, to do those games if he needs to do them. He's got absolute respect for the role and the people. Why I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't is that this is a major situation and he's going to be stepping into a role if Michael Carrick is relieved of his duties when he is. They need to get going as soon as possible. Again, that said, sorry to sit on the fence.

14:51Not many players are around during this international break. I don't know how many you'd have to work with, but he needs to get into this role if he's coming in and we expect him to as soon as possible. This is crisis stations for Manchester United. Before I go, I just want to add a few points. Firstly, there'll be a lot of conjecture over this Monaco trip, and rightly so, but for a bit of context, this was in the diary. It's a CEOs of Ineos event. They had to go there. They were told by Jim Ratcliffe, you have to be there. You could say, well, why does Jason Wilcox have to go as sporting director?

15:28It's a valid question. But so Jim Ratcliffe wanted them to be there and they work for him. And so in terms of someone hanging around at Carrington, speaking to Michael, I think they should have spoken to Michael personally and kept him abreast of matters just for dignity, if nothing else. But they had to go. And it's easier said than done to just rip up plans for such a business critical event in the mind of the owner. That's one thing. Secondly, on Maurizio Pochettino, and there will be rightly so much conversation about what has happened before. I mean, Laurie and Andy will talk you through the amount of times he's been close to the Manchester United job.

16:06When he was meeting Sir Alex Ferguson for lunch, when he came runner up to Ten Hag, when he interviewed in spring 2024. even I think when Ruben Amorim got the job again he was he was in the mix this has been the job that he has wanted the most things were not right in May 2024 I think it was spring 2024 the interview didn't go too well from either party's perspective I didn't I don't think Man United came away with the best feeling nor was Mauricio Pochettino in his best state the way things have gone at Chelsea and PSG I'm hearing now and the proof will be in the pudding that he's reinvigorated to an extent that he's not been at for a long time that he you will see a different version of him now that um he has his energy restored players that we've got soundings from uh around the u.s men's national team have been singing his praises and i think they're in a position now um sorry i've got calls coming through as we speak they're in a position now where he will come reinvigorated and and ready to fit into the manchester united um setup which is a really interesting point because people feel it needs to be ripped up, start again on recruitment, on executives, on ownership, of course.

17:18But there are many coaches that would have wanted to bring in their own sporting director, their own recruitment experts, and perhaps with validity. That's not realistic right now. So to be bringing somebody in that is... Man United is the apple of Maurizio Pochettino's eye. he will adapt to what they've got set up and he will take to it with vigour that you would imagine is in keeping with it being almost the culmination of his career to date. And so I think there are some really interesting elements and I'm going to leave you with one point. Michael Carrick's a class act. He's probably emerging from this with the most credit of all.

18:02He will be devastated by the position Manchester United are in in the Premier League table. The performance is not good enough. The results probably dictate a managerial change. He had the best record in the Premier League in 2026 in his interim spell in charge. Many of us felt he earned the role. It's all well and good being wise after the event, despite the fact that the Nevels and Keens of this world were saying don't appoint him. Many had a contrary view. He has carried on working in pretty unceremonious circumstances since Como and Bournemouth and on to this very day and this very minute.

18:35but you know he has shown himself to be the guy that people talk about a legend of Manchester United and also somebody that I don't think anyone will wish anything other than well in his next steps and coaching career and you don't imagine he'll be short of opportunities going forward No, not at all Well said David Thank you very much for joining us on Talk The Devils your debut on our live streams on YouTube so thank you very much I'll let you go and take those calls mate Pleasure

19:01David Ornstein: Cheers guys Have a good one Cheers David Have a good one man Thank you

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20:50Brilliant to have Orny on and thank you again to him for being with us. And I hope people watching and listening along to that learned something new about Manchester United's situation and this decision on Pochettino as well. It's a huge breaking story, Laurie, obviously that you've been a big part of on The Athletic as well. Thank you everyone for joining us on the live stream on YouTube. Remember, if you're not subscribed to our channel, get yourself subscribed, turn the notifications on. When we go live with breaking news like this, you'll be the first ones to know about it. So many of you getting involved in the comments.

21:22Thank you so much. I'm trying to work them in to give a flavour of how people are feeling with the questions to the lads. So, yeah, only sort of detail there, Laurie, about just how many times United have been close to appointing Mauricio Pochettino, or at least interested in him becoming the Manchester United manager or head coach. You've written about it on the article on The Athletic as well, a bit of a deeper analysis, really, of this pursuit. Is this fifth time lucky then, based on what David's just said?

21:52David Ornstein: It depends how many times you're counting. I sort of thought maybe it was seventh time. When it's an approach and approach. Yes, exactly this. So, I mean, obviously you go back to 2016, that lunch with Fergie, and there might be a little bit more detail I can provide on that once I've made a few checks today. You know, we've got the pod tomorrow, haven't we, as well? And there'll be a written piece on the Athletic, no doubt. Is that the seventh, fourth, fifth, I don't know, pod of the week? That's the first. When is the podcast? I thought that was the starting gun in terms of Pochettino and United, but yeah, how many podcasts have we done?

22:26David Ornstein: The meal at Scott's in Mayfair, a few minutes walk away from United's London office, £114 bottle of wine. That felt like a kind of public courtship, shall we say, of Pochettino. Didn't happen. Ultimately, it was Jose Mourinho that came in at that point. And then even you're getting towards when 2018, then when Mourinho is dismissed. But at that point, Pochettino's buyout at Tottenham was enormous, I think. and Real Madrid were interested in him at that moment. And so United went the alternative route, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer on interim charge. Then when Pochettino gets sacked at Tottenham, he's then free as a potential candidate.

23:04David Ornstein: And there were some suggestions that he would be, you know, coming into Old Trafford then with Solskjaer a little bit on the ropes. Didn't happen. Yeah, then obviously you've got Eric Ten Hag, 2022. It was those two as the last two options. They both interviewed for the role. Ten Hag I think provided a lot more detail in terms of what he would do in certain aspects Pochettino's approach was different and I've had again more conversations recently about how they were different and whether there was a clear candidate it was it was more Ten Hag was the preference at that moment it wasn't necessarily that Pochettino did badly per se it was just that his approach was more about striking a togetherness amongst the group you know and he had tactical ideas of course but it was more I suppose about generating that energy and vibe whereas Ten Hag I think they felt was the right choice in that moment because they needed some clarity in terms of how the team was going to play and you'd obviously by that point you'd had this is a funny little wrinkle to it all you'd had the Champions League semi-final Ajax versus Tottenham when Ajax were winning right until the death and Tottenham scored three goals to to beat Ajax and then go through to the final to have that match against that team that Andy can't remember and doesn't know the result and score in that game.

24:21David Ornstein: But then you come forward again to 2024 when Pochettino is Chelsea manager at this point. United were obviously making a lot of inquiries around potentially replacing Ten Hag either side of the FA Cup final. I believe he spoke to him then again as well and David sort of touched on how that went in that situation. And then, as he says, I even think that when Ruben Amron was appointed, I think Amron was the clear choice pretty early on. And again, we'll come to why. I think Sir Jim Ratcliffe has a pivotal role in that appointment. I think he has a pivotal role in this appointment. But I think Pochettino was a name being spoken about even then at that stage.

25:00David Ornstein: Obviously, he's at USA by that point. He's left Chelsea. He's agreed terms with USA, I think in September 2024. So whether that was ever feasible I don't know. But yeah, since that point, obviously he's been away. With the USA, international management is a different pace entirely to club management, particularly the club, the scale of Manchester United and the eyeballs and all the scrutiny that you get there. That's the question. Is he still got that hunger, that desire? Is he still got that kind of spark that he had at Tottenham when he was coming through and was, I think, clearly overachieving with Tottenham?

25:33David Ornstein: Could they have won the title? They got close. I mean, obviously I was covering Leicester when they were finished third in the end and obviously Leicester fans sung about I'm just going to drop that one in again just by how many times is that? 5th, 6th, 7th? I'm sort of racking up the numbers and ultimately they faded away but they finished 2nd didn't they as well and he was punching above his weight in the Champions League so he's got that kind of pedigree I can see why with all those considerations being made United have come to him even now in this period where it felt like maybe he'd said goodbye to club management by taking the USA job because he has got that Champions League pedigree.

26:10David Ornstein: He's got faith in youth. He does bring through talents, obviously him and the Harry Kane story. I know Tim Sherwood started that, but clearly there was a mutual bond there that really worked to both their benefits. And he's got that personality, hasn't he? I think that's, when I get to the Ratcliffe question, I think that's a key aspect to it that Ratcliffe likes, head coaches, managers, that he can have that kind of conversation conversation with personality and so from a journalistic point of view it'll certainly be an interesting person to cover obviously you can ask questions about the fact that United are now paying again for a manager could they have got him for free in the summer for example I know the World Cup was going on but that's another question because Andy mentioned it you know I think it's 30 odd million with Ten Hag staying then going Ruben Amren appointed then going Dan Ashford if you could put into the mix so it's you're getting up towards 40 million pounds in sort of three years for a situation that ideally you'd have one personality throughout.

27:09Yeah, and considering the cash considerations, the financial considerations at United at the moment, it's less than ideal that there is going to be more money spent on changing head coach. I mean, that's a topic of a few of the comments that are coming in, Andy, to be fair. Paul is asking, will Pochettino be bringing in his own backroom staff? This would cost a fortune. I mean, it would be an additional cost from what David said earlier on in the stream as well. David Ornstein was with us a little bit earlier. If you're just joining us, it sounds like he will be bringing his backroom staff. Poonit says, £7.5 million plus the cost of staff for a manager who was available for free in August.

27:45United's ability to make decisions into expensive emergencies needs to be studied. Yeah, it shows they can do it if they want to do it, which was something I asked you on Sunday's live stream. But again, it's money that, you know, could have been invested in the team to make things better in the first place really yeah it's bad and once again the timing of Manchester United putting a new manager in is not ideal this has been repeat patterns since Ferguson United have been huge admirers of Jurgen Klopp of Pep Guardiola and the timing has never been right for them to take over at Manchester United huge amounts have been paid out in compensation where managers have invariably been sacked that money is is wasted the bigger the team the larger the compensation look it's bad bad bad there's no positive side to this and the timing with Pochettino and Laurie's talked in depth there about how many times he's wanted the job and he has and he's interviewed for the job and he's not got the job because United have felt for various reasons there were better candidates at the time as I said on the last pod I think this will be broadly welcomed he's experienced he's managed at big clubs you touch then on his backroom staff he's right a man as long being jesús perez they were at espagnol together he rose from being an analyst at espagnol where that's where i first saw maricho pochettino playing and he was a good player he was good enough to move to to psg but when he really came onto my radar was in the summer of 2009 when espagnol's captain danny harque died 26 years old and Pochettino was manager of Espanyol and he was quite impressive at that time.

29:23He was talking about leadership. He looked like a leader. I think there's a lack of leaders at Manchester United right now. And Jesus Perez is from Barcelona and Pochettino's kept his family home there for a long time. He's often been told to me as being the good cop. Pochettino is the bad cop. He's the one who can be the disciplinarian. He's got a big team around him. He's got the team who he's trusted and he's built that team up when he was at Southampton then he's gone to Tottenham. He took Tottenham-Otsburgh to a Champions League final which is a huge achievement for a club. Obviously they were not going to win it because they don't win anything apart from one competition.

30:01We won't mention that Andy. You get that in every podcast. No, we're not going to mention it. Tottenham don't actually spend a lot of money. He didn't spend a lot of money so he did exceptionally well there. I think he's quite personable. He certainly speaks Spanish and English. I'm not sure. I think there's an Italian. He's from a town named after an Irishman in Argentina. And Argentina, I'm thinking the other day, should Manchester United ever appoint another Argentinian, just given what we've been talking about with Sandro Martinez and a pretty patchy record. And yeah, we're absolutely doing that in some style now because it's going to be the manager and some of his assistants, although his main assistant is Catalan.

30:40I love the fact that his desire to keep coming back, to walk away, what's an extremely comfortable job. I spoke to lots of people yesterday around him. I spoke to some agents. Agents were trying to contact Manchester United yesterday to put their candidates in. One agent called me and said, you know, I'm trying to get older, Jason and Omar, but they're absolutely, I know this, Andy, they're on the way to the USA. I said, no, they're not. They're on the way to Monaco. This was yesterday afternoon. him this has long long been planned they said okay that fits because then I bumped into another agent earlier on and he was telling me about Pochettino and it's fast moving there's this jigsaw being put together all the time I think Manchester United have acted relatively decisively here in far from ideal circumstances everything that's been said on this podcast about Michael Carrick is absolutely true and he'll get another payoff and his staff will get another payoff and he will be remembered exceptionally well as a person as a coach he showed he was a good coach last season but one win in 10 this this simply cannot carry on and I think there'll be a part of him gets that and only gonna got it because he just said the last six weeks spiraled out of control for him he got that and it was unfortunate and that that is happening now we're in the middle of that and Manchester United need to recover this season and need to start getting wins and I do have faith in Pochettino as a coach to do that.

32:04I think he's got a strong personality. I think he can be a disciplinarian as well. He's got that Premier League experience. Some of the managers being put in did not have that Premier League experience. And I don't think Manchester United were being deceitful, working out what the situation was with regards to replacements a few weeks ago. I think that's diligent to do that. The season clearly was not working out, even though Michael Carrick signed that contract in the summer. And that's another repeat pattern In Manchester United's recent history, managers sign those big permanent contracts and tend to last months after that.

32:39It's really worrying. Exactly. Exactly. Even before Ineos.

32:44David Ornstein: Yeah, I know. But yeah, it goes back a few years. Yeah. Well, unquestionably. And to be honest, we will leave the deeper analysis on those sorts of repeat patterns to Thursday's Talk of the Devils. One we'll be recording back in the studio in Manchester. and we'll get into more of the different aspects of exactly what's led Manchester United to this situation again.

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33:44David Ornstein: Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Good news for anyone who's bad at waiting.

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34:52I want to talk more about Pochettino if we can, Laurie. We've been on for about half an hour, so we'll probably stay for another 15 minutes or so. Welcome along anyone joining us on the live stream on YouTube. If you don't know what I'm talking about because you're listening back to the podcast, get yourself on YouTube, get yourself subscribed, turn the notifications on, like I've been saying repeatedly over this past week because this is our third live stream of the week with so much going on at Manchester United at the moment. I like the idea that he has an affinity already with Manchester United.

35:21I like the idea that this is seen as the ultimate job for him. There's a detail which Guillaume Balaguet shared again from his book that he wrote with Pochettino, which was that he was in the Nou Camp in 1999 to watch Manchester United come back in stoppage time to beat Bayern Munich and win the treble, which must have left a mark on him because all these years later and all these dalliances with the United job as well, he's still ready to step forward and to take over because the meal with Ferguson is 10 years ago.

35:53David Ornstein: It's a long old time, isn't it? But then, yeah, if he was in the New Camp in 99, as we all were, there's my second clang of the podcast, Ian. That's the second thing I always mention. Leicester and New Camp 99. How can you not be captivated by what happened there and feel, whenever he's spoken about football, he's clearly somebody that loves it, that enjoys the game, the pure essence of what you're trying to do when it's 11 versus 11 and the kind of drama that can be conjured from that. And so, yeah, there's a certain romance to it. I mean, I don't want to over-egg it because clearly, ultimately, it's a clinical business and certainly...

36:30David Ornstein: The proof is in the pudding, which is another one that we keep repeating. Yeah. But it's sort of... I don't want to retrofit this idea onto what's now happening because perhaps in the summer you were thinking Potch is probably a good candidate, but he's got the USA World Cup. There's no way he's going to walk away from a World Cup with the USA on home soil. And I think that kind of went OK for him. Certainly to start with, the Paraguay game was a big show of dominance, I think, from them. And really captivating and energised the tournament, to be fair, having them as hosts get in that way. A third clang of the pod, I was in Vegas for the USA versus Australia game when that was being won by them in a kind of stirring manner.

37:16David Ornstein: Obviously, they lost to Turkey and then they ultimately lost to Belgium in the final game, which obviously it had all that stuff with Balogun and Trump. If you're talking about entering Man United and the political dynamic at this club, then I suppose you can't really... Yeah, you've kind of faced the biggest kind of political animal over there. But yeah, I think ultimately, if it comes back down to what does he really want? And if he's got that, it feels a little bit like Van Persie, doesn't it? You know, the little boy inside sort of saying United, then if that is true and if he can really get back to the kind of approach that he had at Tottenham, I know it's been a year since and he's been at PSG and Chelsea since then, but again, political clubs, you know, so he's got to have that in his locker with what goes on at United.

38:06David Ornstein: As David touched on there, you know, with Ratcliffe having this, what I'm understanding of it is it's a biannual INEOS CEOs event. So it's all the kind of big guys at the INEOS company and United people are presenting there. So you've got Berarda, Wilcox, I think there's a couple of other people as well, maybe going over there or over there right now. And yeah, it's long in the calendar, but that's the kind of idiosyncrasies of a Ratcliffe regime, where in reality, they should be, I would say, in Manchester, you know, handling this kind of business. And maybe you'd still have Michael Carrick taking training.

38:40David Ornstein: I get that's the industry that we're in, but I think it would be handled differently if they didn't have to go and go over to Monaco. And I think they've got training today, training tomorrow. You'd expect them to be coming back from Monaco and then having a face-to-face conversation with Carrick on Thursday because then there's a break in training after that, I'm not to believe. So that's your opportunity to do it face-to-face, as Andy says there from Omar Barada's point of view. But yeah, I can kind of now see when we talked about Eddie Howe having admirers at United, I certainly think that had a certain level of truth to it.

39:19David Ornstein: Nagelsmann, again, you had someone like Christopher Vell liking him. I'm not saying that he was pushing for him at all, but there was people that were also considered, I would say. but Potatino I suppose ticks probably the most boxes even if you say does he still have it and like I say from what David's saying there and as I say from people that I've spoken to it feels like he's got that energy and the refreshment that USA has brought to him so again let's see I mean one hell of a game to start with if he's in the idea is that he's in place in time right for that game at Anfield he's been there before I'll have to go and check his record at Anfield now I'm I think what it was like against Jurgen Klopp and the like.

39:57Just remember it being really good and don't go back and check it. That's probably the best way to approach this game at Anfield. I have no idea what it is either. It definitely feels uncomfortable. It feels uncomfortable, to be honest, even sat here talking about the next Manchester United head coach when there's still one, as we speak, taking training at Carrington. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like it's the way that things should be done, if you know what I mean. I agree. There's a question actually from Tom Andy, which maybe has something in it. I don't know, see what you think. He says, do you think that post-Bourmouth they asked Carrick to remain in charge for three games whilst they lined up a replacement, which would make sense as to why he's still taking training, etc.?

40:36I have absolutely no evidence of that.

40:40David Ornstein: Listen, I think he knew the potential difficulties ahead and I could be speaking out of turn here, but I would be surprised in the extreme if they said it in that kind of way. I think, you know, he is doing his job. he's obviously got that affinity with United anyway. No manager is going to walk away from a situation. You even have obviously Eric St-Harg when they were clearly interviewing people around his job in the FA Cup final. There's no way he was going to walk away from United. And if he'd had to take training, I'm sure he would have taken training. But I would be very surprised if that was kind of painted as clearly as that.

41:12I think, from what I can tell,

41:14David Ornstein: he had an opportunity. If they'd won all three games, for example, this isn't happening, is it? And the players also asked for an opportunity collectively. effectively the players said can we have a chance to turn this around as well for Michael because obviously they're still here the players aren't they they are and that's the way that football is yes for Michael I don't think if you went around all 22 players or whatever it is and said is this the best manager you've ever worked with are you entirely convinced with what he's doing you'd get a resounding yes but he absolutely didn't lose the dressing room those players were still playing for him.

41:49We saw it in Roma last week. We saw it against Aston Villa. The problem is those very same players kept giving two-goal leads to rivals. Quite encouraging, one aspect of Pochettino. He was a ball-playing central defender. He knows how defensive works. He was good enough to play 20-odd times for Argentina alongside world-class defenders like Roberto Ayala, Walter Samuel. Pochettino was the guy who tripped Michael Owen in the 2002 World Cup. Yeah, definite trip. Very clear. I can't remember. And do you know who recommended him to the Southampton job? When he couldn't speak English, by the way, when he arrived, that was left to Jesus Perez, his assistant, Jose Mourinho.

42:31He was the one who put him in for Southampton. I knew it at the time really well because I knew one of the Southampton players and his agent. So I knew what was going on there and was writing it. and I remember writing that Pochettino said the language of football is sometimes more gestural than vocal which I thought was quite interesting. He knows the image matters. He knows how you dress, what matters. He's got really good contacts with the markets that he knows best, Spain and Argentina. Spain are the world champions. Argentina produces football. Not that Manchester United should be by more Argentinian footballers but he's been someone who's broke the mould.

43:09He made more appearances for Espanyol than any other foreign player in the 90s and noughties. I remember seeing him in a nightclub in Pacha with Lionel Messi. And, you know, so he's got it. He can work on different levels. And he can drop clangs like that as well. Come on. You're not going to pull him up. That's the belt of that, isn't it? Didn't speak to him, but they were there. I'll tell you who else we were with. Pablo Zabaleta. He was another Argentinian. Not as Espanyol, yeah. He was mates with them all. Pochettino was the longest serving manager in La Liga before he left the club. This wasn't someone who was angling to get out, even though he was doing a very good job.

43:43What he brought to Espanol, he promoted young players, as you've been saying, and he knew that he had to sell as well. He got them into higher, consistent finishes. He brought in his compatriots, but I watched that team quite a bit. They were aggressive, attacking football. And I remember speaking to someone about him. They said he's an intelligent man. He's intense. He's a fully committed disciplinarian. He doesn't suffer fools who show the same commitment, but he's loyal to those who do. He can inspire players and he can inspire teams. He's comfortable with the media and he's still very young.

44:16That's why he's lasted so long. And that's why I think he'll do so well in England. That was someone who knew him well, and that was in 2014. So I'm just going back through all my notes I've made about him from the times that I've written about him to give some detail about him. But I think it's interesting.

44:31David Ornstein: Well, I'll tell you what, the Amazon cameras again, I mean, if you're thinking in those terms... We've got a few people mentioning that in the comments, to be fair. You know, the USA connection that he's just had, it's a big story for us as the Athletic. We've got people over on the other side of the pond that are very interested in this. The guys over there that we've got that work for us are great at what they do as well. So, you know, it crosses the Atlantic. I'm not saying that's why they've chosen to make this appointment, but the Amazon cameras are certainly going to have plenty of footage to get into.

45:02I think they've got a series already, haven't they? they could probably stop filming tomorrow and they've already got everything they need to get. Right. Let's leave it there then for the live stream on YouTube of talk, the devils. It's been fantastic to see so many of you getting involved in the comments and joining us for the stream. Remember, if you're not subscribed, get yourself subscribed to our YouTube channel. And obviously we'll, we'll be back on Thursday with our standard talk, the devils on that show. We're going to talk more about Mauricio Pochettino. We're going to talk exactly about what to expect from him in 2026.

45:36Look a little bit deeper into his record in recent times after all the success that he had at Spurs through PSG, through Chelsea, the US men's national team as well. We'll get some more insight from people who covered his time closely in those jobs. And thank you again to David Ornstein for joining us at the start of this stream on Talk to Devils as well. If you want to hear more from David, you can head over to the Athletic FC channel who are live, I believe, still now talking about this decision for Manchester United. And of course, in the meantime, if you want to know any more about the situation at the club right now, go and have a look at The Athletic.

46:13We'll have the very latest on there, led by Andy Laurie and others, of course, into exactly what's going on. It's been another week, hasn't it just? And it's not over yet. There's more to come, so stick with us. Thank you very much for your company, Andy and Laurie. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.

46:51The Athletic FC.

46:59David Ornstein: Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of the best one yet behind every episode. There's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google doc, the headline hammer with Google workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools. We already use like Gmail docs and sheets, no new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's go.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

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48:12Plus, select ladders are up to 50 % off. So go ahead. Get in there early. Shop Black Friday deals in-store or online now at Lowe's. Valid through 1118, while supplies last. Free tools vary based on battery kit purchase and location.