Why Carrick survived at Man United & Sesko injury blow

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2:22The Athletic FC.

2:39This is Talk of the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. We are back and coming up today we discuss the fact that Michael Carrick will be in charge of Manchester United once again for the Chelsea game this weekend. There is obviously lots of conversation around the club. We've got the latest on Bruno Fernandes and also an injury, a Laurie Whitwell exclusive, a serious problem, setback, whatever you want to call it, for Benjamin Sesko. A big blow in what's already been a pretty troubled week for the club. Laurie's here in the studio in Manchester and he's joining us from home as well.

3:10I don't see any point in wasting any time. Let's get straight into it. How is Michael Carrick still the Manchester United head coach? Considering what we all expected at the start of the week, considering the tone of our last show, nothing's changed. Nothing has changed. Hopefully, for all our sakes, it does still provoke some kind of change in the performances and the results. Something has to change. If that's not the thing, something else does. Yeah, it maybe sounds the definition of insanity but I do think that taking it in a very optimistic point of view, is it backing a manager, head coach in a period of turmoil like hasn't been done before to kind of break that cycle of churn and players maybe feeling like well if results aren't going well and we don't perform then ultimately the guy picking the team gets changed and then we go again and you know we can refresh and up like that is it that well i'd like to say so i think perhaps the reality of the situation is more uh profound here where you know you're looking at i'm told the financial situation at united where it would cost money obviously to dismiss michael carrick it would cost money to bring in a replacement even as we touched on on the show the live stream the other night eddie howe for example even though he's not employed at the moment there's still a compensation package there for example so how much of a factor is that we don't know exactly but certainly money has been a consistent theme being spoken of by people at united now again is that a particular message to put out because actually when you get into the numbers you know they could spend a bit more money you know it would be debt you know fine but it's still there's room in the the accounts it comes to then you know psr ffp which i think squad cost ratio that's the new one isn't it scr sorry there's too many initialisms um so that then is another factor and the uefa one i think they're kind of a bit more tight too so yeah can they go and you know use this expense right now so there's no budget to change boss because surely there has to be if they need to yeah well then you combine it with january signings you know looking ahead we'll probably touch on that in a moment won't we but you know you can't re-signings did you say well i'm not saying that that's going to happen but you'd think they would be looking at potential improvements in general addition shall we say so um i think that's a factor are they set on who would they would then come in as well is that person going to definitely bring about a change more than Michael Carrick could do if you actually get him in front of his players and try and sort things out.

5:45Again, we can touch on what happened then on the Tuesday when he was back at work and the conversations that have been had with Bruno Fernandes and other players and things like that. But yeah, it feels like there's lots of different opinions at United. There's the Glazers, there's Ratcliffe as the two kind of co-owners. Then beneath all that, there's Omar Barada, there's Jason Wilcox, there's other people that have opinions as well. was there not a consensus on how to proceed and here we are you know going into the Sanford Bridge game obviously Michael Carrick after the game said he hadn't been told anything and I think he was consistent in that you know I think he was you know genuinely yeah maybe he was thinking the worst could come for him but then I think he was also throwing it forward and thinking well I've not been told any difference so I'm perfectly willing to keep going he turned up for work on Monday well not necessarily for work because there's other head coaches managers that wouldn't have watched an under-21s game at Carrington in that scenario.

6:37He did. And then came into Carrington on Tuesday morning, 7.30 bright and early wearing his training gear. I'm glad that it kind of followed what we had sort of sensed by that point. The sort of timing of the live show felt like it got the right moment for, okay, he's going to take training. And then how can you really change a manager at that stage? I think we said it would be unfair on him if he started taking training again and then wasn't in charge for Chelsea. But it still took, didn't it, until midday for any communication from United to say he's going to be taking the team into Chelsea and hopefully beyond, but again, not really any kind of resounding backing in that sense.

7:13And that's what makes you doubt this idea that they are absolutely having faith with Carrick to turn it around. And this is a real show of support because it needs, in that sense, it needs someone in the hierarchy publicly coming out and saying, this is why we're doing this and explaining it to people. I think the silence is not a good look at all. I appreciate it's difficult and you can't get into all the nuances of what's happening. But there needs to be way more communication for my money, from the people that are making these decisions because it can't just be Carrick up there each week and then the players in broadcast interviews and things like that.

7:47And I do wonder as well, just the final point on all this is, the international break is coming up in two weeks or one week. There's a week where there's Chelsea, Roma, Aston Villa break. Three very tricky games, actually. Very tricky. Even Roma's form in Serie A has been great. Yeah, I'm just thinking back to when Michael Carrick played against Roma. 67 will do, yeah. Oh, 6-07 season, that'll do. Yeah, let's see. I mean, obviously, the Chelsea game is huge. He went there in April off the back of a defeat when it looked like was he really going to get the permanent job in that moment. They went there, had a really good performance defensively, certainly with Masraoui and Aidan Heven at centre-back.

8:271-1-0, that basically secured a Champions League qualification and that was the moment when the Carrick permanent reign was kind of rubber stamped. So what will Stamford Bridge hold this time? Well, we'll talk about that a little bit later. So much to unpack in that first answer from Laurie. I love it when podcasts start like that. No, no, it's good. There's so much to talk about, isn't there? So many different aspects. If you don't know what we're talking about in terms of the live stream, we did a live stream on YouTube on Monday evening. Once we had a better idea of exactly what was happening at Manchester United with Michael Carrick.

8:57It wasn't definitive at that point. Laurie's written his article on The Athletic, 44 hours between the final whistle of the Bournemouth game and any sort of definitive noise coming out of Manchester United about exactly what this week would hold for them. Remember, subscribe to our channel on YouTube, get the notifications on as well. If we ever go live in the future, which we will do with everything going on, I'm sure you'll be the first ones to know about it. Andy, why do you think Carrick is still the head coach? I think Laurie's answered it very well with a lot of different details there. So, yeah, he answered it well.

9:28No. Cheers, Andy. The definitive take by Lawrence Wirtwell. I totally disagree with everything he's just said. Yeah, end of podcast. Michael Carrick carried on as normal, even though things were not normal. I found it quite interesting on Monday. There was a lot of assumption going around that he was going to lose his job that day. And some people said he was going to lose his job, he was going to lose his job, but he didn't lose his job. The fact was he did not lose his job. We did the podcast later on Monday, and I think we were pretty accurate in what we said. I think there's a number of factors, and Laurie's touched on most of them.

10:06Lack of available obvious replacements. More patience with Michael Carrick to have a chance to turn things around, given there is serious mitigation with the injuries. Another point I'd make is someone said to me, the penny has finally dropped with a lot of the players and I found that quite interesting and I think that the reaction from the crowd from the Stratford end on Sunday has stung some of those players to the point that oh right this is not just get rid of another manager and we just carry on playing but it's on us as well and if you're a player what do you do do you try your very best to play in a football team that wins matches, where you're probably going to be happier, where you're going to be still playing for a big club in the best league in the world, or do you sulk, do you criticise, do you stir things up, do you become a negative force in that dressing room?

11:08They're your two options. So there were some clear-the-air talks with Michael Carrick. I was told, because Bruno Fernandes is really important to all of this, because he's the best player and he's the captain and he's not having a good season. And he spoke out last week in Como. I don't know if he regrets that because the reaction against him speaking out was pretty negative against someone. So suddenly the egos of some of these players are being pricked a little bit. Oh, right, I'm not the superhero with every single fan. And if he made a mistake, that's fine. Humans make mistakes. Footballers make mistakes.

11:42People say things in the heat at the moment. But I'm told that Bruno's response is a positive one. rather than a negative one. I was pleased when I hear that. I'd hate for him just to see out his Manchester United career under a cloud. So if we're going to see a return of a better Bruno, then great. And Bruno is not just an individual talent, he's the leader in the dressing room or one of the leaders. And other players can look to him and think, all right, are we in this together? Are we going to show people we're not as bad as our results, our performances and I think there's an acceptance that there's lots of people responsible for this and Michael Carrick's one of them he's the manager he's coaching staff that's what baffles me you've got people like Steve Holland who were credited with being the tactical eyes behind Gareth Southgate's relative success and yet you're watching Manchester United thinking tactically what are Manchester United trying to do here so these are only words we've heard them before we heard them before Leeds there's this big reset we heard them after the international break didn't really believe that I got told that the international break was a hindrance not a help because you have players who played a lot of matches but they also hindered other clubs as well you have players who played four international games in some cases what Manchester United did this week yeah it's one of been one of those washing machine weeks where everything's spinning around all the time and it's absolutely crazy and and for us it is as well but a relatively clean run into the game on saturday whereas chelsea have had a midweek game away at liverpool which which went to penalties and i don't know what michael carrick we see in the in the press conference he tried his war cry last year the defiance as i said in the last podcast you can only do that once or twice because it's just words so maybe the penny has dropped with enough of those manchester united players to go we are going to get a result here and the timing as you mentioned the next international break it's a cutoff i'm not going to say neat cutoff because nothing's neat here is it someone's going to lose the job but there are three games three huge games in succession.

14:00There's another point is, were previous managers sacked too soon? Was Ruben Amarin, he probably talked himself out of the job, as did Jose Mourinho. Was Ole Gunnar Solskjaer sacked too soon? Was Eric Ten Hag sacked too soon? Because they botched up Eric Ten Hag's dismissal, in my opinion. Got it completely wrong. The influence of people like Dave Brailsford inside the club. I think they got things wrong with Eric Ten Hag. and once you make that decision and sack someone, you've sacked them. So let's give Michael Carrick a chance. Let's give his coaching staff a chance. Let's give his players a chance.

14:41And also, finally, if any of us were to sack him, it reflects really badly on them as well because they've made disappointment, and suddenly all the talk of best in class, you'll be like, well, wait a minute. You came in sounding like you knew what you were doing. you change your managers every six minutes here what do you really know what you're doing so i think a confluence of all of those factors together with the immediacy of three really important games it's like right show what show what you are here surely you cannot be as bad as last year so i'd fully expect go to chelsea similar performance to last year backs to the wall maybe they can pull it off maybe I mean I don't know if we've ever had two first answers to a podcast that have been quite that detailed and quite that sort of depth of analysis across so many different aspects and really that says everything about the situation for United at the moment that it's so complicated there's so many different elements to this conversation just again to try and unpack a few bits and bobs in there I think the point about the players is really interesting i think the reaction as they came off the field the other day was one of the sharpest responses i think i've ever heard inside old trafford and the switch from serenading singing carrick's name coming off the field to the second he disappeared the booze ringing out and normally with crowd reactions you get one or two pockets that will lead it so normally you get like a little pocket here and they'll start booing and then other people think well that's a good idea I think I'll boo as well, but it was so instantaneous.

16:16It was such a sharp, almost like immediate, instinctive response to how people were feeling. And clearly the second half, some of the chanting, the target of the chanting, it was widespread. It was mutinous is how I think you described it in your article and what we said on the podcast as well. And for the players to see and feel that, I think there is definitely a sense now within the club that changing the manager isn't going to change the mood this time. This is not something that can be just solved by Carrick leaving and someone else coming in. Maybe that will still happen, perhaps in the next couple of weeks with the international break.

16:51These things are complicated. They do take time to finalise. It's not as easy as just going, sack him, appoint him. So maybe there is still a moment where this changes. Or there is a moment where Michael Carrick and the players produce a response at Chelsea, produce a response against Roma and Aston Villa. and actually when the international break comes, which would be the cleanest, maybe not neatest, chance to be able to make a change, then the mood has changed and the sense of feeling has changed. And the only way we find that out is on the pitch across this next week and beyond that, of course, as well.

17:23Again, we'll talk about the Chelsea game a little bit later. Just to get into the detail, Laurie, of exactly what changed or how this decision, nothing's changed, how the decision came about, how do you think United went through the process of working out that Carrick would continue? Well, I think there was a brief chat with Carrick after the game, Barada and Wilcox, believe. And then after that, he goes home, comes in to Carrington, but not at the same time. Barada and Wilcox came in early in the morning. I think there was a call with the Glazers, with Ratcliffe, sort of trying to basically decide what to do and going through the permutations, I suppose, of the cost and then what could happen if they stuck with Carrick and everything like that.

18:06It's difficult to ascertain exactly at what moment they were sort of thinking, let's just continue with this. Maybe they always felt that way instinctively from that initial moment and that this wasn't the right time. And who exactly decided it, considering there's so many stakeholders, like you said before? Yeah, I mean, ultimately, it's the Glazers and Ratcliffe, isn't it? And I don't think you can discount the Glazers in this. They're still a majority shareholders. I thought they weren't managing football operations. I know, but I think they have certainly had an influence on signings and spending and what have you.

18:38Ratcliffe clearly as well, though. I mean, Ratcliffe definitely is involved in specific decisions and wants to understand why certain things are done and have his own opinion on it. And we can certainly debate whether that's a good thing or not. There's been instances where that hasn't been a good thing. I think I mentioned in a previous article about going into a physio room and suggesting how to stretch because he'd done the London Marathon and whether that was really the best use of his time, I suppose. I think it certainly has changed dramatically since Ratcliffe has come in in terms of that kind of thinking.

19:14But still, the Glazers are involved, right? They're still there and it's their club, really. Still, they're the majority shareholders. So, yeah, whether that then produces this sort of, I don't know, stasis, like, what do you want to call it? Like, I'd love it to be, we're giving Michael Carrick a proper chance. And it's interesting to me. Why would you love it to be that? Just because, I've said this before, football is so, I don't know, financial without feeling as much as it used to be for me. Maybe I'm being nostalgic and it's my childhood. So, yeah, it's going to feel, exactly, it's going to feel a certain way.

19:53but it feels like it's moved beyond it's big business isn't it and it's kind of you know whereas at least Carrick has that sense of romance to it and clearly from what he said last week you know it tapped into me tapped into what football's about memories shared experiences so if you can called a boomer for saying this are you not a boomer I mean you're kind of looking a bit boomerish with what you're wearing today thank you yeah um okay um but uh he he taps into that uh I'll move swiftly on for me if you can have success with somebody like that as your figurehead who clearly cares about the club clearly hasn't got everything right there's certainly people that would disagree with tactics or with choices that he's made but i think that ultimately he's coming from it from a position of care for the club so i would that's i'd rather have that than okay eddie how will it work i don't know like he's obviously a very good coach you know is he better than michael carrick probably because of what he's done at bournemouth and newcastle but is he better than michael carrick at Manchester United.

20:48I'd still have some questions around that. Julian Nagelsmann, you know, Germany were rubbish at the World Cup. I'm not saying, you know, so is he the answer? I don't know, but there's nobody there. Antonio Conte, you know, I love his fire, but, you know, in this sphere of United now, it's going to cause so many issues. And fine, that's what you kind of want in a way. You want somebody to, you know, put a rocket up certain individuals. but then ultimately what will the result be? He's obviously won the league with Chelsea so fair enough, maybe I'm totally naive to that and actually he'd be great and you could have success.

21:23You'd feel like in two or three years' time he would be in this position again but what would have happened in those two or three years to get to that position? He's already been to Tottenham since the Chelsea experience. Obviously he's won Scudetto with Napoli as well so he's an impressive body of work for sure. At least he's been there and done it. Yeah, so he'd be the outstanding candidate in my eyes but clearly the reality is cost would he then work within whatever structure they've got so then would that ultimately damage united long term yeah that's why i would kind of i quite like that idea of character and but i think andy's point is right in the the fan reaction i sort of forgot that one amidst all my you know five minute monologue i'm glad that you forgot something yeah i do think that had an impact because how could it not and you mentioned that switch it felt like it was a kind of telepathic connection between all the fans like they it wasn't like somebody was sort of trying to give people a bit of a nod to say, this is what we're going to do at this moment.

22:13It was totally instinctive, as you say. And so I think that unnerves people that are then making a decision because you look at Andy's right, I think, to touch on the Ericsson Haag situation around the FA Cup final and him winning that trophy made it clearly more difficult for them to then move on. They still looked around and maybe that would have been the right thing to do still, end it there. But I think it did have an impact in then their decision-making process. And so they're still the people that were there at the time at the club now. So that, I think, still a relevant point. I just hope they understand what the feeling was with that chanting for Carrick.

22:49As in, you think it's different, right, to we want him to stay chanting compared to we're showing you some respect in this moment of difficulty and we want to make our feelings clear on this exact moment. It's nuanced, isn't it? But I think it was about support for Carrick, the person he is, the figure that he is for United, what he's done for the club. down the years. I'm not sure it was a resounding, we want him to stay, we think he's doing a great job. It was more that we have got faith in you and we don't blame you per se for all these problems. And can I just throw out, I mean, I'm going to give a little credit to I think the Times Game podcast and it was James Geerbrand that brought up this stat, but he's still, Carrick, in his first 25 games as a Premier League boss, got a better record than Jürgen Klopp and Mikel Arteta, even now.

23:34So I'm just like, I know it sounds crazy and I probably should have researched this before bringing it out on my own podcast, but I think they're trustworthy sources. You'd hope so, wouldn't you? So if you really want to make, you can make an argument in that sense of saying, well, actually let's just have some faith that he's shown what he can do in certain moments. It's difficult with the injuries, with the selections that he's got, the mood, he's obviously tried a few, he's pulled a few levers that we haven't seen before. The big grandstand press conference, the dropping of Bruno Fernandes.

24:01Keeping him on the bench as well. Keeping him on the bench. Doubling down. We'll get back into that, won't we? After this. so he's making these moves and let's see if he can figure it out actually because he has shown at the end of last season as I say that is the only period of success sustained under Ineos' regime since they came into the club in December 2023 3.

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26:21Laurie mentioned there some of the potential candidates that Manchester United would have assessed when making the decision this week about continuing with Carrick or not. If you want to know more about the likes of Julian Nagelsmann, Unai Emery, Eddie Howe, also, if I missed out. Conte. Antonio Conte, thank you. There is the Athletic FC podcast from Wednesday where Emma and the team go through, and Arkeris as well, go through all the different options, the pros and the cons of the different candidates and how suited they would be for Manchester United, right now? I mean, The Athletic as well have run a fan survey this week where they asked a number of questions.

26:55One of them was, were the club right to give Michael Carrick more time? Not far off a 50-50 split, to be honest. 54 % say no, but 46 % say yes. Of the candidates that are out there at the moment, you can add Fabian Herzler to the mix as well for this poll. Which of these do you think is the most suitable for Manchester United. 41 % said Unai Emery, 24 % said Antonio Conte, 14 % said Julian Nagelsmann and only just over 8 % said Eddie Howe. So that was how athletic subscribers are feeling about the situation right now. But it is Michael Carrick. He will continue. Andy, I suppose the next element of this to talk about is the situation with the captain, Bruno Fernandes.

27:41You mentioned a few details in your first answer before, but how has this been sorted out then between Carrick and Fernandes as we understand because Sunday seemed it was pretty strong from Carrick to leave him out and even stronger to keep him on the bench Yeah, even stronger to keep him on the bench in a game that Manchester United were being battered in I think as two adults you just have a chat and realise if you work together then you both benefit from that because the alternative is not working together and you're both damaged by that and I'm glad that the outcome from what I've been told is a positive one.

28:19Bruno Fernandes has been Manchester United's most important player since he signed over six years ago and I still think that he has a lot to offer. He's a good captain. I didn't agree with him last week in Como. Didn't agree with anything I saw in Como to be honest. Even my drink choice. He can help turn Manchester United around and it's improbable given Chelsea away and Roma and Villa. These are really tough matches, but you'd like to think if Bruno and the players who look up to him, and plenty of them do, there's a tricky dressing room again, then you've got half a chance. It's interesting what you said about the managers.

28:59I'll just add one little point to that. There were managers who would have come to United in the summer who ended up going to all the Premier League clubs, but Manchester United went with Michael Carrick. And I think United have actually been quite unlucky with the timing post-Fergie of managers. So they really liked Jurgen Klopp, for example. But at the time, it wasn't when Manchester United were looking to make a change. Pep Guardiola. But at the time, it wasn't when Manchester United. Because there were times when Jose Mourinho was doing really well, Louis van Gaal were doing well. So I think the timing's always been quite unfortunate with Manchester United.

29:37Is that not where you need a distinctive plan, though, for who's next and when to make that call. So the timing is right for you. So Michael Carrick's got a two-year contract. It's not a five-year contract. And I think it's quite short, but maybe realistic. And then you're looking at who do you bring in next. If you look at your absolute A-list targets, they weren't around in the summer. Now their circumstances can change. Managing in the Premier League is still hugely attractive to a lot of managers and at Manchester United. I don't think United's structure is particularly appealing to most managers, but it's still a very, very appealing job and it'll appeal to the egos as well.

30:21I can be the person who finally sorts this out. But you have a plan until... You don't have a plan. I don't think anybody thought that eight or nine or ten games into this season, Manchester United would seriously need to consider changing the manager. but that is what has happened. You know, Emery is someone who Manchester United absolutely respect and like and rate, but you can't get someone out of Aston Villa when the season's going and he's doing really well. It just doesn't work like that. These things are done in the background with sort of tacit agreements to, yeah, let's go for it. Let's go for it in the summer.

31:02That's the reality of how it works, unless you have someone who's out of work and they're the names that you've discussed. So Bruno, big name, big player, big personality, captain. He's hurting as well. They're all hurting. Everyone at the club's hurting. The coaching staff, as I said on the last pod, I think everyone goes into work in Manchester United, wants the team to do well. They're not going in originally intending to not have a positive outcome like we've been having. so if they can find some togetherness great and I think we'll build up to the weekend and Michael will probably put on a I don't think we'll see a Churchillian speak like last week he'll probably be more measured Could be another difficult one for him unquestionably The questions will come again won't they?

31:50Yeah they will but how does he answer them? He's answering them from a point of weakness because his team keep getting battered and the only way that that changes is by good performances and by wins, even a one-all draw at Chelsea playing well, that gives you an ounce of credit just to grab on where you can say, I saw a lot of good today. Or if you get a win. And I also think just a realisation of the reality, how much Casimiro is being missed, for example. Really effective last season and the players who've come in, I'm sure that it's very early for all of them. They'll get a lot of minutes at Manchester United, all of them.

32:30but we've yet to see compelling evidence yet that they're as effective as Casemiro. Yeah, Carrick needs Bruno on side as well to be honest. I don't think that's a situation that helped at the weekend although I totally understand why he made the decision whether that was a football decision initially because of Bruno's form. That's what Michael Carrick said before the game certainly. I think keeping him on the bench surely has to be about the interview and what was said and criticising the tactics because from a football perspective, you would have brought him on ahead of Joshua Zerksi or Shea Lacey or even Matthias Cunha probably, who were the attacking changes that Carrick made during the Bournemouth game.

33:12In terms of the survey that I mentioned before, 72.7 % think that Fernandes should return to the starting line-up against Chelsea. I think the expectation is that he will now that this thing has been sorted out. And I think it's interesting what Andy says as well about the dressing room dynamic, because Bruno is one of the unifiers in that group. He has been for a long time now. He brings together all the different factions of it. And if he's back in every sense, that will help. And I wonder whether he's a bit, is he a bit battle weary as well? Like we all are. He's been through quite a lot as leader of that group too.

33:51and does it get to a point where he's sort of thinking, how's this ever going to change? I mean, he shouldn't do what he did and he's right to criticise that and the supporters clearly showed their feelings as well during that bottom of Game 2, but he needs to be back for this Chelsea game in every sense, doesn't he? Yeah, I think he'll definitely be up for it, I would say. Would he regret what he said? Definitely start. I think he will start. regret probably I mean it's in the heat at the moment but but then again you know if you're watching a certain malaise come over a club where he's never been that kind of character as he's been I want to make stuff happen I want to try stuff and that's obviously what the issue was really with the tactics where they're being told to basically sit off because of the personnel he wants to go and break the you know break the line you know press high and that's where the issues come him voicing that after the game is perhaps an indication of being desperated at a sense of paralysis and I'm going to make something happen here and he did he made himself get dropped to the bench I guess but then at the same time you know he's got that temperament where you can have these arguments and then you can patch things up I would say fairly quickly I mean Carrick has had him as a player before when he was coach under Olegon Solskjaer so that relationship is established I think they can I was being told ahead of it that they were going to have this head-on conversation.

35:17It wasn't going to be hiding away in little nudges and winks here and there. It was going to be up front and frank. And I think that's what happened. I think Eric had a big meeting as well with all the players. Clear the air, basically. Air any grievances. Try and get on the same page with everybody. It sounded productive from what I can tell. People might, you know, criticise me and say, that's PR, but... Well, the proof is on the pitch. Proof is on the pitch. Exactly. We'll see. But I clearly think that the Bruno thing has been, you know, a line has been drawn on it. And so, yeah, let's see how he fares at Stamford Bridge.

35:48But yeah, he's obviously such a huge player for United and him being on song is pivotal to them getting results. Yeah, another player, I'm sure, who would have felt the reaction at the end of that Bournemouth game as well. And let's see what impact it has on the group heading to Stamford Bridge at the weekend. One member of the group who won't be there, again, is Benjamin Sesko. Now, you've done your exclusive for The Athletic about his injury, this shin problem that he's had that's plagued the last, what, nearly 12 months, I think, pretty much for him. Not quite that long. By the time he's out in January, it will be.

36:20Yeah, okay, fine. Yeah, fair. Won't it? January's back. Hopefully. Could be longer. Yeah, because I suppose you're never quite sure as to how these things will go, but also when he is back, able to kick and run and everything like that, then he still takes time to get Matt Sharp, doesn't it? So in terms of him being back on the pitch for Manchester United, I don't know, it could press beyond January. But yeah, I can see the reaction from people has been pretty despondent, I suppose. And I can understand that totally. I think all I would say is that it's an unfortunate issue that I don't think anybody really could have predicted or figured it out in a different way.

37:02I could be wrong, but it's not chronic, for example. So it was sustained by a kick in the springtime. he played on because United needed to get Champions League qualification I think it was all fine for him to do so but then the Ibrahim Oconate push happened there's a kind of clattering and that area is affected again the shin and then he's out and it's rest, it's recuperation now there's been a sort of debate over is surgery needed this time? is it rest? I think rest at the moment is what they're going with and so we will see how that develops and obviously it's difficult I suppose then to put a definite timeline on it and it does come back to should United have done something in the summer.

37:42Again, I don't think they could have predicted this incident happening in a similar area again, but still having that kind of insurance, I think, would have been prudent. What I would say about Cesco is that clearly he's someone that's very diligent, I think, with his fitness and his preparation, probably more so than I would anticipate someone of his age being, in terms of his stuff at home that he's got, like the gym and the pool and the sauna. and I know maybe that's kind of part of the course really but I do think he takes it very seriously and so I think he'll be very upset about this development but it's been something that I think they'd kind of been a little bit concerned about it lasting that long when it first sort of recurred after the Brighton game wasn't it?

38:22It was around that time that was his last appearance That's his last appearance, yeah Yeah, so but it's been a case of kind of you know, having the medics look at it specialists and figuring out what the best course of action is and so yeah, let's Obviously, we all hope he's back quickly because it's as quick as he can be. Obviously, I appreciate that we're talking about January, but having a striker to bounce off, it's been lacking, hasn't it? You can see it. So, yeah, a major development, really. Yeah, frustrating, Andy, because he hasn't really got a history of missing football matches either.

38:54Laurie details in the article. He's not ever had a period like this where he's been missing for so many games like he has for Manchester United. There are alternatives in the squad currently, but as we've seen so far this season, none of them feel ideal for what is now going to be an extended period again without a recognised centre-forward for the club. Deeply, deeply frustrating kicking a man while he's down because he was one of the most promising parts of last season and he spoke to us after the Sabah game and he was confident about, here's what I need to do to improve. and you want to hear that, you're thinking this is someone who's in a good place and wants to get to an even better place and then he's not there.

39:39And it's difficult, really difficult because Manchester United have a lack of recognised centre forwards. You want him to come back sooner, but it's just a long, long time whether Manchester United then go to market because they have to. I think results and performances between now and when the window open will dictate that. There are other factors. Maybe United overperformed last year. Maybe the team's not as good as people think that it is. And I've been speaking to tactical minds this week about how the way the team has changed and tried to evolve. Someone said to me, people have basically sussed Man United out.

40:22What they did last year was basically a 4-4-2 mid-low block. And if you're not evolving, people are sussing you out. and Manchester United have changed, said to me, they've evolved into a jump press, but the pressing is not working. Are the players buying into this? These are all factors tactically where you... I can't understand why Manchester United, why the midfield is being split open in almost every single game. That's the most alarming thing for me, watching Brighton or Bournemouth or Como just blitz through Manchester United's midfield. And I wonder whether, even if Benjamin Sesko was playing, would he get any service?

41:03Because whoever's playing up top is getting almost no service whatsoever and then adding another factor, which is the confidence is clearly on the floor. You've got all these negatives. You just want something, something positive to cling on to where you hope that it can turn the mood, turn performances and turn Manchester United a little bit. and there's just nothing at the moment. What is it? Xerxes cushion the ball beautifully before a consolation goal in Como in a 4-1 defeat. You know, there's just absolutely nothing. I've never known it as bad as this. I really haven't. I agree.

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44:18you need the players to be braver I think though as well I understand that confidence is a massive issue for them but it's really stuck in my mind interviewing Harry Maguire after the game at Ellen Road and saying that one of the biggest things that was missing was just bravery and obviously the games that they've got coming up over this next week, even after the break, it's Anfield, Liverpool away, who look like they're getting their act together under Andoni Arola as well. They just need to be able to work themselves through the situation they're in at the moment for their own confidence and be braver.

44:51I mean, take risks, that's Manchester United attack again. Heard the crowd chanting for that at the start of the Bournemouth game. maybe that was an element of Bruno Fernandes' frustration with what he said about the tactics too. Let's come back to the January window. You teased it earlier. Andy mentioned it a moment ago as well. Is this what you think January could hold? Some solution to United's issues up front? Well, I mean, solution, I wouldn't go as far as to say that, but I think there would look... Attempted solution? Attempted solution. Let's go there. Sorry, I'm absolutely getting splinters sitting on the fence here.

45:27I am led to believe that they are looking at the market and looking at the options. Now, whether they're then going to pull the trigger on that, I don't know, but clearly that's an area that they're looking at in terms of strengthening the centre-forward line-up. One of the names that I'd heard under discussion is Dominic Carver-Lewin, who's obviously at Leeds, so there'd be a little bit of inflammatory circumstances around that, perhaps. I would think that's very unlikely in January just because of the rivalry between the two clubs. From what I understand, Leeds might also... Cardalo's done it.

46:00Cardalo has done it as well, yes, very recently. But he was a free agent, so Leeds couldn't do anything about that one. Whereas they obviously can do something about Calvert-Lewin. And to that end, I wonder if I get a sense that they would like to sign him to a new contract as well. So yeah, but it just sort of shows, I'm sure there's other names that they've looked at as well. We might even, by the point of this podcast going up, have a sort of data analysis on the Athletic of options that United could maybe look at in January and let's see but clearly bringing in somebody of that stature of that ilk is going to cost money again do United have that money well if they have it in January wouldn't they have had it in the summer to do it yeah and that's where you can then ask the questions of well why did you make that choice and not the other choice because they've certainly spent money in different ways on other players that aren't playing right now for example like not to dig anybody out but you can go through the list of transfers they've made in recent years um you know of the kind of you know four five six seven million kind of mark and you can figure out okay well could it have been used elsewhere as things stand currently so um yeah and obviously you know spending money on on the land as well for their own purposes you're sort of wondering okay there are decisions that have been made that you can then try to scrutinize and understand.

47:16But yeah, I think the January window will be an area that they're trying to look at already, even as we speak. Okay. Before we get there then, it's Chelsea. It's Stamford Bridge. It's Saturday lunchtime. It's a huge game for Manchester United. It feels like every single game we say that at the moment, but this feels even bigger than the last one. It's not a place, Andy, where United have many fond recent memories. I think last season's victory made it two wins in recent times, going back to something like 2012 I think for the last time that they won in the Premier League at least away at Stamford Bridge before that.

47:51Chelsea's formed a bit up and down though as well, knocked out of the League Cup on penalties during the week against Liverpool, injuries too. How do you see this? Well Chelsea are better than Manchester United but you say up and down and you're right, they're really erratic with their results. The one time I watched them in 90 minutes was they lost 2-1 against Arsenal and that was one of the more predictable results. But they beat Bournemouth 5-1 and then they get hammered. They got lost at home to Tottenham on Saturday. Tottenham fans were saying that was their best away end for years. Tottenham have not been that good this season, but they've gone to Chelsea and won that.

48:27Chelsea have conceded 15 goals, so there's a lot of goals there. They've conceded more goals than this Manchester United, even with the terrible start. They've got Morgan Rodgers. I mean, he's yet another player who Manchester United wanted. 100 % but the reality was they realised how much he would have cost and Manchester United were going for second choice cheaper targets. Chelsea will clearly be favourites. If Manchester United are to get a result it will almost certainly have to be like last year. Is that backs to the wall? Actually Manchester United on the counter are quite effective. You can't play on the counter at Old Trafford because the fans will just never accept that.

49:12But you can at Chelsea away. Now, we've not got Casemiro to nick a late one. We've not even got the energy in midfield that we have had. And the confidence is low. So you'd have to say Chelsea are clear favourites. But I'm still not going to write Manchester United off. I'm more confident going into the Chelsea game than going into the Bournemouth game or going into the Como game. Why? because it may work in Chelsea are clear favourites I'll say that I do not expect Manchester United to win but I think when they play defensively and can play on the counter and we're still missing key players that's another problem unlikely we might get one back Komi Mane who started training this week didn't he?

49:57So he's the one who I'm thinking he's not really a runner is he? He's lovely on the ball he's got lovely feet I just that's how I feel about it they are the clear favourites but that I'm more confident than before Bournemouth away from home. Chelsea, in a way, give me a bit of hope that this situation for United right now can be rectified. How that gets rectified, who exactly leads them from this point, is obviously a matter for debate and something we've talked about throughout the show. Going back to the fan survey, over 50 % of people said they were either very worried or a little worried about relegation given Manchester United's start to the season, which is pretty alarming.

50:36but Chelsea are fifth in the table. They're only actually six points ahead of Manchester United and you think of some of the games and some of the points they've thrown away already even with this pretty disastrous start to the season. You can see how it can be saved from this point. Obviously it has to start at Stamford Bridge but yeah, they've played 8-1-4, drawn one, lost three. 2-0 home defeat last weekend to Spurs which was a really poor performance from Xabi Alonso's team. There's still elements when you watch them or when you speak to people who watch them that they're trying to work out and trying to transition to.

51:14It's a different shape than how they've played before. And serious injury problems as well. First-choice goalkeeper, Henry Martinez, we're missing. Arguably their best defender, Maxence Lacroix. Pulled his hamstring, it looked like, in that Liverpool League Cup defeat. The captain, Rhys James, is out at the moment. The centre-forward, arguably the most important player, Jao Pedro. also missing I think even Moises Caicedo came off with a knock in that Liverpool game as well Cole Palmer will be back from suspension he got red carded against Spurs but missed a League Cup game not this game unfortunately if circumstances have been different and it's a lot of circumstances to be different we might have been a bit more positive about this I think this is what Andy's getting at it's a world away from that Bournemouth game where you're at home the pressure's on it's been made into this big spectacle and clearly nerves were at play with a lot of what was going on on that pitch and now you can criticise and maybe think, well, they should be drilled better and they should have those understandings between teammates.

52:07But there was passes going in to certain areas that were just so risky or not executed well because I think you could see the players sort of thinking, if I put it there, what's going to happen? Is the crowd going to get on my back maybe as well? And it just fragmented. And Bournemouth were so at it, weren't they? They were drilled. They knew what they were doing. You've got a really tight core there and Marco Rose has come in and adapted well to what Iriola left behind. Chelsea's obviously a different thing it's still as you say they're a work in progress I think Jao Pedro being out is a huge blow for them he's looked really sharp this season and can they think of it as well we're going to go we are the underdogs let's do that kind of backs against the wall kind of thing I'm sure Bruno Fernandes would get on board with a lower block in this situation hopefully he does It's not for him to decide it's for the staff to decide and to say whether it's right or wrong pretty sure that's what he said yes yes yes Listen, if he scores the winner and then has to do the broadcast interview, that'd be a brilliant couple of minutes, no doubt.

53:05Unless they put him up top and then you can maybe run around a lot more than you would do. I mean, obviously that was kind of the role, wasn't it, at Como, really. But yeah, that's the issue with the Sesco being out and him trying to figure out a way to still get this team as a unit and still have the potency because they didn't have anything in Como. Bournemouth, similar, a couple of chances, but it was so sporadic, wasn't it? it needs to be a tight group all together. And I think if your mindset is different in the sense of being clear in your thought when you go on that pitch, I think it will be different psychologically for them than the Bournemouth game was.

53:42Confidence is clearly low. Can you rest that around this week? I don't think it's too trite to mention, but on that Tuesday when Carrick is confirmed as being back as manager, United had a group of fans who've got life-limiting illnesses. visit as part of the foundation. And I don't know, okay, I know they do these things quite a lot. It was a pre-planned event as well, but I do wonder if that gives you some perspective and just kind of clears your mind a little bit to what, okay, you know, we play football for a living. It's a pressurized situation. There's lots of people with lots of opinions, not least us, but ultimately you're there to do what you loved as a kid growing up.

54:22Can you come together as a unit, whatever your difference is, and produce performance that you can then celebrate and be proud of? let's hope they can find something heading into the game at Stamford Bridge, that's for sure. Just before we finish, we'll need to talk as well about a brilliant piece that's on The Athletic right now to celebrate Black History Month, which obviously takes place in October. It's about the Premier League's black icons. Marcus Rashford gets a mention there for United. There's also the likes of Dennis Walker, Remy Moses, Viv Anderson, Paul Ince that are all mentioned in the article too.

54:51Go and have a look at it if you want to know more about it and have a read about some of the brilliant trailblazers and huge icons that have been in the Premier League across recent years and beyond. I mean, Andy, you'd have spoken to quite a few of these people. How proud are you of the black players who have made a huge impact on Manchester United's history? Extremely. I spoke to one of them yesterday, Paul Inns. I spoke to him for half an hour. What a player he was for Manchester United. I didn't include him in my greatest 25 ever Manchester United. Did that get brought up by any chance? Which is 30, 31, 32.

55:25What do you think? Knowing Paul, I think he might have mentioned it. Was that the catalyst, Andy, maybe? It might have been. My point is... So you've readjusted your numbers now, Andy. Look, listen, he didn't play enough games for Manchester United to get into that list. Paulins was a world-class midfielder. And this is going to get back to him, because I just know it will do. Still lives in the North West. I'm sending him the clip. Absolute top, top player, Paulins. Brilliant. I would love Paul Lynch right now for Manchester United. But I was talking to him about his background and the racism he suffered as a kid.

56:00Tough as you like background. Given that, when he came through, nothing fazed him as a footballer. He's like, I'm not really that bothered that that drunk guy over there is giving me abuse because I've been through so much more in my career. I also think it reflects Manchester as a city. It's a very cosmopolitan city, proudly so, and has been for a long, long time. And I think that is a positive. Tony Whelan is someone I see a lot of. He's from the part of Manchester where I came from. He made a huge contribution to Manchester United. Just been travelling around with Andy Cole. And he just told me, you know, we spent a lot of time, just him and I together going around Ireland.

56:45And what it was like, it's from Nottingham Coley. Did you ever watch Forest? I said, oh, not to count it. Nah, that wasn't for people like me, mate. Because when he was a young lad, football grounds were not places that people of colour could go to. And he looked up to people like Cyril Regis and Brendan Batson. Oh, I can be a footballer. I can do this. They were the heroes, huge heroes. And even in the 80s, I remember some of the racism from the Stratford end. It was absolutely horrendous. and one of the good things that has happened in football is that people from all different backgrounds feel welcome to go.

57:23Black players have made a huge contribution to the history of Manchester United, especially players like Paul Ince, who in his day was the best midfielder on this planet. I'll get a text in about three days on this. To be fair, if it was last week, you could have chucked Bruno Fernandes out of his 25th position and just squirre as Paul Lentz in as the moment was. Maybe things have changed since then. But yeah, go and check the article out. Definitely, it's a brilliant read on The Athletic right now. Right, another little reminder before we go. If you're an NBA fan, The Athletic has something really exciting for you now the new season is here.

58:00The Athletic Live presented by Google Gemini is a YouTube watch-along on NBA game days featuring the biggest and best beat reporters that The Athletic has to offer in basketball. you can even become part of the show in the interactive chat on youtube so join the conversation throughout the new nba season keep your eyes and ears across the athletic for the very latest updates on that and remember get yourself subscribed as well while you're here on youtube to talk the devils the next time we go live get the sub the notifications on get yourself subscribed like i say and you'll be the first to hear when we go live with whatever happens with manchester united across the next few weeks the next few months the next season and beyond it's a bit of moment right now but Laurie, Andy thank you so much for being with us, thank you everyone for listening and watching along as well and we'll see you after Chelsea whatever happens, take care, bye bye

59:15The Athletic FC.

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