Will Man United kick on after Roma comeback?

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1:38This is Talk to the Rebels, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. I'm smiling because Manchester United have won a football game again. I think we've pretty much forgotten what that felt like. But we are here, we are back to talk about every detail of United's 3-2 comeback win against Roma. we're back in the studio the morning after the night before we need to talk about Michael Carrick about previewing Aston Villa as well Laurie, Keris and Andy are all here we're all at the game last night as well Keris if you needed a word to describe that comeback last night what would you use? Chaotic.

2:14Okay not lucky no? Lucky was one word I used that I got quite a lot of stick for which I it was like the third word in the list and I thought it was fair and a lot of people didn't think it was and that's their opinion and that's fine i think lucky is fine considering the situation around the penalty i think chaotic is fine was it relief was it happiness um i don't know what was it lorry definitely happiness for me because it's been tiring and difficult to analyze and just sort of you know be a part of these man united games where it ends in kind of disappointing defeat where there's been a flicker maybe of hope but then they haven't been able to see it through this was the opposite where it started so badly you're thinking this could be really damaging oh it was awful yeah as you you experienced it amongst the fans i was terry seeing last night yeah yeah okay i was basically ready to set fire to the place at halftime and you know everyone was getting it basically okay you want to admit that on a public forum do you you know yeah the arsonist in you uh i mean not literally not literally okay good metaphorically just to if the lawyers are watching.

3:21You were folding the club at half-time, were you? Basically, yeah, and by full-time I was jumping up and down with my dad singing Glory Glory Man United. So that's what it does to you, Andy. Glory Glory? Glory Glory. Good. It does, and we needed it, didn't we? Because it's been terrible. The results have been terrible, and at half-time it was terrible. And you're like, 2-0 down after 16, 17 minutes. I don't actually think United started that badly. I know they didn't have a shot on goal in the first half. Are we talking about the first two minutes? No, the kickoff was good. Yeah, the kickoff was good.

3:52You had a solid... So I'm being serious, right? You had a solid eight or nine seconds when United kept possession and you're like, we're not conceded a goal here. And then their tactics were mind-blowing, going man-to-man, out of possession. They should have been ready for that, though. Well, they were. Yeah. Except you saw when they got there first that Diogo Delo was... And he spoke after the game about this and he'd been instructed to go so far forward. But the second half was brilliant. It was Old Trafford at its best. It was those primal screams of roaring the team home, of smelling blood.

4:26I still didn't believe that Manchester... I just didn't. That's where I am. Me too. And even now I feel conflicted because I'm so disappointed with the start of the season. But I did enjoy it. And when the goals were going in, the equaliser I liked more than the winner, bizarrely. Probably because I was head down right in a way. But it was fantastic for Cunha to get a couple of goals, I think for the first time, scored two. Is that right? For United, yeah. Is that actually right? I think so. Maybe ask a respectable... He did that much. He did that much last night. I can't think of one last season where he scored twice in a game off the top of my head.

5:01Someone can research that for us. And straight into the Roma fans, 3 ,000 Roma fans who'd been having a good one. It was a top, top night. Apart from the night, they needed the points. United are now above Atletico Madrid in that Champions League group. So I'm sure we can enjoy it. and talk about it and that's the idea of this pod yeah the first half was bad we are not erasing history with that but i'm not going to sit here and focus on that at the start of this podcast because we have done so much misery and concern and shit let's let's be honest in the last few weeks and i think it's about time we can be positive even for a little moment um how good was that second half what were the elements that really stood out to you and um who who takes the applaud its well you've got to give cuny the applaud its haven't you for scoring the two goals winning the penalty was it a penalty i don't care um probably not having yeah having a unique brand of motivation style of football because i mean he won the penalty then booted the ball into the crowd told them to well at the crowd it was like you know really direct um and he did that before hadn't he which game was it was it the Bournemouth game where he kind of told the crowd Spurs Spurs sorry and they weren't really having it got somewhere to go basically yeah some friction there but listen sometimes creative friction same part of the crowd can happen same part of the crowd and Carrier could swap to Madden with Mbumo at half time so tactical tweak so we can certainly get into the bits that were bad tactically but then I think you've got to give praise to the bits that were good and that clearly did keep it on good just for a bit of time giving him licence to get forward and get in the mix and I mean I mean, I'm going to have to disagree with Andy.

6:43The winning goal was wow. I mean, I've watched it back as well. The move was superb from back to front. Shea Lacey's ball into Cunha, but then we were right behind it, weren't we, Keris? And I don't know what noise I made, but it was a kind of like, ah! You know, and he's just, he's hammered the ball as if that ball has said something to mortally offend him. He's slagged off into his entire family, has done him some serious damage, and he's just taken his retribution out. And it just flew into the back of the net, Off the post and in this time, not like Mbumo's one, where it kind of hit both posts and you start thinking, what's going on here?

7:15But back to your very first question, determination, grit, resilience. When we've questioned that about this team before, maybe it's easy to do when you're down and the shackles are off. But I did think there were certain moments where players showed quality. I actually thought Harry Maguire was very good at leading it from the back in that way, kind of trying to carry the ball forward. Obviously an aerial threat in certain moments. at set pieces. And yeah, it was one of those crazy, chaotic nights that reminded me of the Lyon game, the 5-4. Not as dramatic, not as otherworldly and kind of incredible that you're taken aback, but had certain elements to it, not least Bruno Fernandes scoring a penalty to kick it all off when they were two goals down.

8:01And shooting that way towards the old scoreboard end as well, which usually this stuff happens at the other end, at the Stretford end, but it was all at the other end of the pitch, like the Lyon game. Cunha, probably one of the worst in that first half. I'm not doing bad just yet. We'll come on to that a little bit later on. In terms of just being not really in it, but then he's become the first player, I understand, to win a penalty, score and be sent off all in the same Champions League game and the entire history of the competition. He just scores everything into that last sort of six, seven minutes, whatever it was of the game.

8:35Like Laurie says, booting balls into the crowd, booting balls up into the stands when he scored. I think that's why he did the winning goals so well because he'd had plenty of practice to striking balls in that second half. But just the energy and Old Trafford just needed that moment. They needed a goal, obviously, but they needed that. It just felt like a reconnection, a renewal of why we go to the game, basically. Yeah, 100%. I think they just needed to see intensity and needed to see care from the players. I think I said to you Andy at half time as we were walking back out like I was angry in the first half we're not doing bad yet but I was like I was angry at what I was seeing in the first half because it felt like are you even concentrating like do you even care and then to see that in the second half you're right like it reminds you why you watch the team why you enjoy going to games like we all go anyway but it was a reminder of how good it can be when the players like show that commitment and show the sort of the desire to get to every ball maybe the execution's not always there but they made it like a really chaotic kind of environment and they put Roma on the back foot after that penalty there was sort of 10-15 minutes I think particularly where the crowd and the players really feeding off each other and they made it a really difficult place for the opposition to play in a way that I actually just don't think they've done this season like I don't think Old Trafford has been that hard for a team to come and play at as it was in that sort of period of the second half where they actually managed to put an opponent on the back foot and it was so where it's been I don't know it was so refreshing to see definitely and it's a reminder of what it's all about I mean United now again have sort of restored their position as no team in the Champions League has ever come back from more positions than being two goals down than United they've equaled Real Madrid who intriguingly got their fourth also against Roma in the competition this season and just that energy and Carrick made an interesting point in the press conference after he said some of these players have never felt that before even some of the ones who arrived last season there wasn't really a circumstance like that like the Lyon games probably the last time which is obviously a couple of seasons ago now so you wonder what power that has we don't know what's happening next we'll talk about Carrick's future and exactly what the result means a bit later but just for everyone to like I say reconnect with what this should be all about I think it helps massively the confidence has been on the floor yeah and it's been picked up off the floor by that second half performance we'll pick out Kunio because he got the goals and we'll pick out other players I'm sure but all of them collectively like Diogo Delo spoke to the media after the game and he made the point that it's been really really tough but that will help massively and Roma are a good team this wasn't with respect beating the Azzapagiani team from the the first Champions League game, which I keep pronouncing wrongly.

11:32Sabah. They're good. They're really good. They were missing four players, including the best players, Dybala. And the first choice, two goalkeepers as well. Yeah, that was tactical by Manchester United. That was a world-beating goalkeeper, Ian. I'm not sure what you're on about. Look, United was respectful because the Romans founded Manchester. You're the third choice goalkeeper. We're just going to go easy on you in the first half and then we're going to batter you in the second half. Do you think they realised that it was the third choice keeper for making his debut in that first half because it didn't feel like they tested Vasquez at all.

12:02Well, they didn't. There was one shot that went over. I think Bruno, 42 minutes I made in my notes. Manu curled one quite tame. Yeah, but it was tame. Yeah, totally. They certainly knew what the tactics were going to be and they prepared for that. And you, well, did they prepare for it because Roma's first goal exposed Manchester United's tactics pretty badly. But to your main point, yes, yes, yes. I hate the word turning point because it is only one game. Well, we've already had this already. There's been other turning points which haven't been turning points. I'm reluctant to call it that. There's major injuries.

12:32There's major concerns. But it was exactly what Manchester United needed for many reasons. And Old Trafford, it's really important to keep the crowd up. Because we've seen too often, even in that Lyon game, it dipped. And Lyon got back into it. And Roma weren't really allowed to. And when Cunha was sent off, that was silly of him. And he had a great night. And he got much better in the second half. Much brilliant with the ball. Well, he's not very good off the ball, is he? That's the problem with him. When he got sent off, I'm like, if they equalise now because of what you've done. But even then, there was some intelligence.

13:07Brian and Bumo just keeping the ball. Ran and ran and ran. Ran and ran. Yeah, we needed it. United really needed it as a club. And I got, I think we all did, loads of requests for interviews yesterday by people smelling blood. Hi, Andy, I'm really sorry to call you. You wouldn't be calling me if this team were top of the league. Right? I think they would they'd be calling it if they were top of the league 4th or 5th that'd be more surprising 4th from top rather than 4th from bottom yeah maybe the calls would dry up maybe when it first goes to top of the league but once you're consistent it's not the same story oh Man United won 2-0 again no no it's going to be a huge story when Man United finally get back to a point where the top of the league went in but if they consistently top finally then it doesn't become the story whereas yesterday is like everyone you know I've done an interview this morning where the previous news item was the US midterms.

13:58And then the next item is Manchester United winning a game of football against AS Roma. It was a great night. It was a great night. Oh, this is nice, isn't it? Yeah, this is what I was looking forward to the most when that goal went in. We're going to bring it back down to earth in a bit, I'm sure, but it's nice, isn't it? I think this is the first positive Talk of the Devils I've actually done. Ever? Yeah, I think it might be, yeah. Yeah, I suppose you've joined us this season, Kerry, so it does make sense. The one after Ipswich was quite a bit, to be fair, but that feels like a long time ago, right?

14:25Well, it was. 54 days since the last win. Is that right? Yeah. How many minutes? Next. Yeah, I mean, and it felt... Sorry, I know. The reason why you have to touch on the bad is because it makes the good all the better. So in that first half, I'm just going to build up to... I feel like booing again. Crescendo. Crescendo. Crescendo. Don't boo me anyway. The atmosphere in this stadium, the protest, we can maybe touch on that a little bit. Definitely, yeah. It felt so febrile that this could really turn very sour. So then for United to come out in that second half and actually perform how they did, again, there was some fortune around it, but they forced it.

15:08Not lucky though. Not lucky. Different, totally different to lucky. And it does really... Carrick was right to touch on that being a significant moment for some of the players because I think it affects you as a player if you've got that sense of we can do this. keep believing, keep on with what we're trying to do together as a team. That was obviously big as well in the second half. And yeah, clearly there's some issues with this team still. But if you can harness what they did well and repeat it, they obviously are a team that can at least continue in that competition and get out of the trouble that they're in in the Premier League.

15:46See, what concerned me the most last night at half-time was how it felt like people had just, were just resigned to it. Fans or players? Both, actually. The entire energy in the stadium felt like they were just resigned to them losing again, playing poorly again. That concerned me more than anything. It felt like people were actually almost beyond anger and frustration. Well, so Carrick was right then, wasn't he? To say afterwards, he said, at halftime, I said, one moment, and this place can turn, it can flick a switch. So if he's saying that to them at halftime, which is what he did, hopefully that just resets things a little bit and i know we've been here before in terms of oh well this is this could reset it this is a turning point etc it's obviously way too soon to suggest that but i think that it means that at least united have got some muscle memory for how to cope with difficult situations and yeah just breathe a bit more life into the situation break the negative momentum the one thing that diogo dallo said to us in the mix zone that i thought was fascinating was sort of asking you know what made the difference and he basically said like we didn't we had nothing to lose yeah but they've not been when they've had nothing to lose as they so frequently have in recent weeks they've not been playing like that they've just been playing like well we've lost yeah that that was that was the the switch wasn't it and it you know it's the sort of win that that can change momentum that can have a real impact because you've shown you can do it now like again center lumens after spurs was talking about how united hadn't shown the ability this season to kind of grab hold of games and i think he used the phrase like pull the game towards yourself like take ownership of it when it was going wrong in the same way that they had last season and how they they'd kind of lost that i think they brought that back last night like that could have spiraled really easily i think bruno's penalty is a real sliding doors moment oh yeah um but i think you know to to it's to his credit that he netted that on the second go it could have been it could have been a moment that got to him he could have collapsed under that and he didn't and he deserves credit for that all the players deserve kind of credit for how they reacted we had harry mcguire in full like kind of driving runs i'll do it myself mode Shea Lacey.

18:08I think Shea Lacey is someone that, you know, that goal against Brighton didn't get what it deserved because of the circumstances. And I'm glad that he's now had that moment of contributing to a win. That's what it's about. People will call that kind of sentimental, but that's what Man United's about. That's what the fans care about, that sort of stuff. If you're going to say toxicity in the stadium matters, then that matters as well. You've got to take the good of it as well. I know it's not spending and it's not kind of these tangibles, but it's not nothing either. No, it's comebacks and young players starring.

18:48It's the very essence of why we like the club in the first place, which you do need a reminder of actually sometimes of why you're a Manchester United fan and how it feels to be connected with a team and with the whole sort of package together. they're not completely connected clearly and we'll talk about those aspects um shortly but let's just have a moment with Shea Lacey because um he had a fantastic impact off the bench how good was Shea Lacey it was brilliant I thought the subs were really good for Telemans did really well too um I think he's the player who excites most because he's been patient he's clearly talented I think fans would like to see more of him he's an exciting player he represents hope yeah you know what I mean and Liverpool fortunately um I think he's a good kid no he's Manchester United it's all in the past I saw a video of him scoring at Brighton of his family in Liverpool and it was just great hearing all these scouse accents going go on lad it was brilliant and I felt he should have won a penalty because that challenge from Wesley I thought Wesley was an exceptional player by the way but he really contained Ahmad who really tried last night but Wesley had the better of him.

19:58But that looked like a penalty to me. But Lacey, I remember when he came on at Burnley for the last few minutes at the start of the year and he was brilliant. And bring him on. We need something like this. We need more reasons to believe. And last night there were so many. There were quite a few. You were saying you're fuming at half-time. I spoke to Keris at half-time. I thought what she said to me, I've never seen Man United win a game since I started this, but... Close. Obviously she has because she's been going on a match for years. I got quite a few messages from family members which were deleted by the end of the game.

20:33Actually. I might start having that. You want to name and shame? I got one Manchester City fan. I had other people. People sending me messages mid-match. You can't be deleting it. You've got to just stand on that, haven't you? Yeah. Come back around. I should name some of them. I'm not going to give some of them the satisfaction because they should be knowing better than to message me during a game when it's actually my job and I've got a job to do. Oh, yeah. But I saw my brother before the game. What are you doing here? you told me in Como two weeks ago, you never got to the game again this season.

21:01In front of all of his mates, he's called Jonathan. And yeah, yeah, I'd had a few in Como. My daughter, who's called Olivia, sent me a message. Why do you follow Man United? They're shit. To which... Has the Olivia offer messaged you about United? Never, ever messaged me about football before. No. I hope she's grounded. Yeah, she will be. and looking for alternative accommodation for at the moment and deleted it. Bottle merchant. I had one from a City fan going, be seeing you in the championship next season. Deleted. Loads of them. You know, tune changers. There's another one I've not replied to from a person with a very important job saying he should have gone after Bournemouth.

21:49I've not even read the rest of the message. So loads of that. Flip-floppers, tune changers. Call them what you want. I love that you've still managed to see all these messages. Yeah. You've lurked a bit, have you? Yeah. And then if you've noted it... I'm going to call some of them up just to see what they're saying. I can't believe you just called your own door a bottle merchant on a podcast. I love that. She is. She is. That's why I think that's fair, though, because now anyone that you criticise understands that you'll do it to even your daughter. Yeah, I will do. Well, also as well, she needs to learn as well.

22:21Yeah, she does need to learn. Watch the second half. Yeah. And be respectful. That's what it's about. I'm not speaking to her, am I? My other daughter sent me a picture. Your favourite daughter. My favourite one, the younger one, sent me a picture to start the game. I've not forgotten, Dad. And she was watching it. Oh, bless her. She's loyal, so I'm going to double her Christmas present and subtract it from the older one. The older one. So one of the messages, this is what happens when you kick the can down the road instead of making tough decisions. There was no reason at all to have kept Carrick after Bournemouth.

22:53That's from another, not my daughter, by the way. No. She don't even know where Carrie is. Didn't know you had Jim Radcliffe's number. No. Hi, Jim. Wow. Can we come back to Shea Lacey? Because I want to keep this feeling going a bit longer. I just love his having himself and as a bit of swagger. I think Carrie described it as a glint in his eye. Mischief. We need a bit of that. Yeah, a bit of mischief, a bit of glint. Somebody texted me after the game. Bravery. Bravery. Saying that he was concrete, called a kind of concrete player, which I thought was really interesting because you sort of see him as this like lithe kind of, you know, silky skilled player, but clearly there's some substance there.

23:28And that pass that he punched into Cunha was damaging. It was, how can I affect this in a most attacking kind of way? And yeah, obviously then Cunha just take his brilliant and rips the ball into the back of the net. But yeah, he obviously loves United. You know, you hear the story of how he obviously grew up as a scouser, but he's so indoctrinated by United because he's been there for such a long time. His family are like, you know, we try and suggest that maybe Liverpool, you know, is still for him. I think they've given up on that one. So yeah, he obviously cares for the club deeply, I would say.

24:02And so that's why it means all that more when you kind of come on. And it did, it lifted the mood, I think, even more. You know how you were saying about there was maybe a lull in the Lyon game at one point. I think Bruno had scored, so it's 2-1 at this point, but for him to come on and it was a real moment of, right, go on. this is a proper opportunity for you to show what you're about and um i'm sure we'll see him more in the weeks to come i thought carrick's point about lacy defensively yeah really interesting as well because against brighton that was one of the bits where i sort of thought like that's an area that needs to improve like the sort of understanding with dalot and the the position i thought that was better last night but i think as well with lacy like what i'm really impressed with about him is when you look at him the first thing you think is that he's a small kid right but his strength he's so like wiry and he's so good in tight spaces in spite of that that he's able to kind of use his his height to his advantage in terms of agility rather than it being a weakness and he always is just looking to go as direct as possible it's you know I really enjoyed watching him in pre-season there was a couple of games replayed at the number 10 and that's obviously, I don't know that that's something that we'll expect to see much more of because Bruno plays at the number 10 and so does Tielemans and so on but it was a really good way to see how strong he is on the ball and how he can get through those congested areas he's a really exciting player and it's not just the sort of raw pace that maybe you see with really young attackers there's something there as well, there's an understanding of how to use his body and how to get the best of situations.

25:40And he's come into a really tough game with a lot of maturity. I think Carrick deserves a little bit of credit for putting him in there as well. Because I did think that there was a moment where there was starting to be a little bit of a lull. Not as much as against Lyon, but there was a moment where it felt like the adrenaline was sort of maybe dipping off a bit. Well, you had that huge high of the penalty we take scored. And then Mbumo goes through and you're like, right, this is lift off now. and he shoots and it hits the inside of one post and then the inside of the other and bounces out and you're like, oh no.

26:12And then the noise continues for a while after that and then it's sort of died down. Yeah, there's all the corners and Maguire nearly scoring and all that sort of stuff. And then it's sort of just dropped into a bit of a lull and I think introducing Lacey was one of the reasons that that just wasn't allowed to happen. I kept the crowd on their toes, kept the noise high. I thought that was a smart decision and a really good performance. Would you start him against Villa? I wouldn't have a problem if he did start. I think he's a reason why Manchester United fans will believe at the moment. And he was very effective when he came on.

26:43I think he's a confident young lad. I keep hearing about him. He's having himself. I like that. Yeah, I do. I do. I mean, he's Scouse, so he's going to win it because he invented the world. But I hear good things about him. And I like him. I like the way he carries himself. I like the things I hear about him. So I'd have no problem with that at all. and that's not to say that Ahmad's been warranting of being taken out of the team really because I think again he tried hard but it just it was a different kind of approach wasn't it from Lacey that gave Romsman to deal with different options you start the next game you play well you show he showed bravery he showed character he showed everything that quite a few of the senior players were lacking in the first half when he came on he believed in himself he was brave he took risks that's what playing an attacking role for United should be about he helped change the game in United's favour and I feel like you know it's obviously not my decision but I feel like he's shown he's ready to be able to start a game like Villa and actually the fans were cheering him like and I know that sounds like it's such a basic thing but there was other substitutions made last night and this is the thing where I was calling it back a bit of a reconnect you've got Martinez coming onto the pitch sounding like maybe there was a few boos coming on it's understandable I know but this is what I'm saying players are coming on Manchester United players are coming onto Manchester United's pitch and Manchester United's fans aren't sure exactly how to react to it.

28:05Bruno Fernandes in the first half having a bit of a moan at Ahmad or Balaba for things that they've done and fans are saying, shut up, get on with it. It was Bruno Fernandes who last season could do no wrong, basically. And as a result of the start to this season, the interviews, the whole atmosphere around it, the annoyance with how the club's being run, the whole package, fans are not sure how they're supposed to feel about Manchester United players at home in a Champions League game. I mean, that doesn't show you how broken it's been. I don't know what will. And you just hope that that result, that performance in the second half, that reaction, that reconnection, like I've said, can do some good moving forward because it can't be a flash in the pan.

28:45It can't be a one-night thing. It has to be a considered improvement from this moment. We can't be sat here in a week, two weeks, three weeks and just back to where we were before. And unfortunately, I haven't got much confidence sat here now that it will be any different no i've not i've not and the issues haven't gone away exactly exactly i stood on the side of the ground last night and people are talking about protests about the glazers they were also looking forward to the game the mood is totally different in real life but then the game starts you had the balloon protest and the stratford end you had tennis balls being thrown onto the pitch i saw some trouble with the roma fans i need to get to the bottom of that with the police the Roma fans I spoke to it was just a joy meeting people away from Rome just having a chat a real positive of European football we have huge respect for Manchester United we'd be happy with a draw here and so would we mate yeah and we hate Manchester City and what they stand for like nice one yeah we need a we need a bed for tonight but do you have any you know so they were obviously leading with it they must be fed up of coming to Old Trafford though well they've had some miserable days in the last podding I mean man Daniele who I was unable to contact i'm sick of going to your club and losing you know but i'm sorry i respect them as a club thought they were all right last night i've seen louder away fans but it was it was a it was a top night but all the issues we've we've covered in depth they don't just go away with with one win they just don't there will still be concerns about the manager um about players about the ownership they're just it's just not going to go away

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32:54What do you think of the protests last night? Because obviously that's felt like a new group of people maybe running that than previous ones. It was very visual. obviously seeing the balls coming onto the pitch and the balloons when when the anthem was on as well there's a lot of it felt very 2010 all this green and gold floating around so there's two groups actually so the there were 4 000 uh green and yellow green and gold balloons um from the center of the Stretford end and visually that that is a legitimate form of protest to highlight it i saw some of the reaction to that online what's that going to do this is and and then there's a second protest which i think was done by a different group of people um which was throwing tennis balls onto the pitch which is which is a different kettle of fish completely because that's disruptive and is against the ground conditions and all all that it's got people talking though both of them yeah and and people should be talking because the cloud of the glazes is still there and there are huge issues around manchester united which is one reason why the club have only won one of their opening nine league games.

34:02Hopefully it's two out of ten after we smash Villa at the weekend. But we're going to be talking about these issues until the Glazers have left Manchester United. And sadly, that might be in years to come. There's no end in sight for that. And fans are entitled. It was a pretty easy ticket yesterday, Ian. It was. I had a lot of tickets going throughout the day. There just were. So that's a softening of demand. This is a Champions League game against Roma. and then obviously you got all your flip-floppers i'm never going to get you said you're never going again last week mate what are you doing here oh yeah you know how it is mate you were raging at me last week am i just your cushion to accept your angst while you then change your tune after a good night's kip yeah you are basically yeah i hope you realize that that is your role i don't know how long we've done but uh we're gonna have to talk about the first half because wow it was bad wasn't it um i don't really know what to ask you about it to be honest because I can't remember seeing the team look so devoid of confidence and ideas, basically.

35:04Yeah, well, so, okay, I know we mocked Andy earlier for sort of saying there were moments to begin with that were kind of encouraging. But I did sort of... You're going to go on about the first 10 seconds again, aren't you? I do mean it. The first 10 minutes was all right. There was a few moments where they were getting on the ball and trying to go forward with it. So Belieber, for example, I thought was driving through Kobi Mayno a little bit at one point. So they were trying to do things. it just clearly the the setup either it was wrong or the players weren't doing it properly and particularly dallo so so did you speak to dallo yeah and he said i was told to go high but there was that high though there was a risk with that they actually told him to go even further and pop all the balloons in the scrap for them but he was on his way there when he saw that roma were attacking and he decided to get back to was it sule who scored yeah he's a player oh he looks what's this about you know sort of left-footed right wingers that were up against the absolute world is against us.

35:57It's because the right-footed left-back is like 40 yards away from him. Or Argentinians scoring against us, another one. Yeah. There's too many unfortunate trends, isn't there? That's it. I mean, it looked just so awkward. You could see it happening and as soon as Manu loses the ball, that shouldn't be the case, should it? I know that you want to kind of be on the front foot and beating the man-to-man system is about quick passes so that you then they're exposed and you can kind of get away. So maybe it was that knife-edge situation where actually on another day, Dallow's the free man and he crosses it in and Bumo scores and wow, what a brilliant tactical plan.

36:32But in that moment, it looked really bad that Tula had so much space. We were saying it, weren't we, in the second spill and up to it, he's wide open. Obviously, Heaven and Maguire are kind of occupied. Or Heaven gets sucked in. Could they have come across possibly? Hedged his bets. Didn't seem to look actually properly across to see what other danger there was. He just saw the run and went with the... His man, effectively, he went with. Yeah, for it to be repeated. That's the worst bit. So not correct it. A couple of minutes later, whatever it was. And it's a handball penalty and you're just thinking this is crumbling.

37:05And then that is when the protests, you know, they were arranged where the pre-match one was pre-match Champions League anthem. That was the kind of coincidence, not like a coincidence. That was the timing for it. But then the 20 minutes one happens just after they've gone 2-0 down and you've got Dallow and Cunyre having to like get the balls off the pitch it felt the most um animosity that i've seen in recent years towards the director's box where you've got people standing up and and basically talking to um you know the directors there homo barada jason wilcox you know very viscerally right in front of their faces so it is i accept the glazes is the main issue but there's also jim ratcliffe that gets it there's also executives being named so it's basically a whole kind of range of people within the hierarchy that these protests are about um and it should be with inios as well because a lot of the decisions they've made have not been the correct ones that is a natural legitimate reaction and we should point out as well that that continued like in the second half yes there was more chanting actually like for the team and you know than we've seen in recent games because the team were giving them something to cheer about but there was still anti-ineos anti-glazer chants in the second half and after the final whistle as well like there's i think there's this perception that it's it's only when things are going wrong and that you know that's never been the case it's not the case yeah exactly exactly that that tennis ball protest was after 20 minutes to 21 minutes to signify 21 years of the glazes that was the reason i was thinking was it 20 titles but yeah okay that'd be nice but no um but so it then fed into this kind of this feeling and whether that then had an impact on some of the players and the nerves perhaps um yeah it was It just looked like Roma...

38:51I wonder if they tied second half though, Roma. They were running a lot in that first half. And maybe there's a comparison with the Gasparini team coming to Old Trafford a few years ago when they were 2-0 up. 2021. Losing 3-2. Atalanta, obviously. A month to the day before Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was sacked. Yeah. That comeback. So, you know, hopefully that's not a similar omen here. I suppose it just shows that these moments can be spasms of, you know, players and atmosphere and Old Trafford remembering the great times that it can have. And I do think there's a difference between a Premier League game on a Sunday at two o 'clock and a Champions League night.

39:26It feels a bit more energised. Even though there were tickets available, it felt that people that were there were up for it and kind of wanted it, willing it into success. Because obviously it was the first time they've been back since the Bournemouth game where we had that sharp turn from Carrick to the players. Even in the warm-up, the players were being applauded off the pitch. So it felt, I think I said this previously, but it felt like a bit of a palate cleanser the Stamford Bridge game and okay right we've said what we've said against Bournemouth but then obviously the way the game started to go then you get in these moments of agitation again with the players and everything like that so I think the fact that they won overall though is huge but still as you say Keris there was chance against the Glazers even as the players are coming off the pitch having won so I think that's a consistent theme that will happen whatever success is achieved by United You mentioned the man-to-man approach and the high-pressing, high-energy style that they always have Romer.

40:22It's become a hallmark of the way that they play under Gasparini. And it did catch United out. And I thought it was really concerning in that first period where you've got Senna Lomans on the ball rolling his foot over it. I don't know what he was waiting to appear, but whatever he was waiting for wasn't appearing. And players were dropping in and they were being chased all the way back. and you had this weird thing where you sort of had like the players dropping deep to build up from the back and the split centre-backs, but then up front, Brian Mbumo, who's not a target man in any sense of the word, ended up being the target for everything because it just felt like he didn't know where else to put it, Senna Lamans almost.

40:56It was just a complete failing. You were waiting for people to show themselves and take the ball and want the ball and want to make stuff happen and between Balaba, Mainu and Bruno Fernandes in the middle who are the ones that you really expect to make stuff happen, it just wasn't. it almost felt like people were hiding a little bit in the first half to be honest confidence and totally confidence and laurie's point about roma tiring is also legitimate because of the way that they play if you're going man for man and old trafford's a big pitch as well then they did tire but he's always done that and united knew he was going to do exactly yeah and i thought cobbie was one of the best players but he did lose the ball in the run-up to their goal and sometimes he's got the most lovely feet and he's really skillful but united are still conceding possession too much there was a time in the first half when belabor just hit a pass and it just went out and you're like this this this doesn't happen as much when you're you're full of confidence and um they they had great effect i don't think they could quite believe it when they were they were two nil up and flying well they'd not even played that well offensively to be able to do that got a couple of good players but missing three or four of the best players as well but united playing without you know they've got a right back playing at left back you've got you've not got your main striker because we've only got one striker and he's injured and then Balaba goes off as well.

42:12Tielemans, I hope that's a turning point for him on an individual level because I thought he was really good when he came on last night. I'm a little bit worried with Balaba doing his hamstring. Just by his reaction? Well it seemed very sharp which usually that means it's a more serious one doesn't it? A serious hamstring injury can be six weeks, I mean I'm speculating a little yeah it can be more can't it be more it can be more yeah it was it was immediate his reaction from where we were because we were behind him like saw him clutch his hamstring immediately and it it felt like it felt like that was going to sum up the night almost like the closest the united player had come to goal and i thought you know he's he's getting so so close in on the goalkeeper he's got a really close range finish oh he stopped oh he's injured because he was about to score and Rome were about to score before Lenny Yoroh made a tackle as well right I'm glad you brought him up because I've forgotten to talk about him I love super Lenny I loved him in the first half last night yeah because he was about the only one who was just kept being at it and he was applauded off at half time when others were getting booed because he was because he was keeping at it and he didn't it didn't do everything right not by a long way but if everyone had been trying and putting as much into it as him I was watching him when Daniel Marlon was taking Roman's penalty and he's on the edge of the box and he's ready you know the second that ball drops anywhere near him he'd have been straight in there and cleared it and some of the others were just sort of like yeah it's gonna be 2-0 there you know you could sense from some of them that the moment was too much almost but I loved Lenny Oro in the first half more of that please yeah there's a lot of talk about obviously the future of of United's defense I think the start of this season has has thrown up a lot of, you know, should it, could it have been reinforced sooner given, you know, Shaw, Maguire, Martinez, Dallow, like how long has that back four been a thing?

44:05And now we're looking at Martinez's future in particular and you're looking at Aidan Heaven and Lenny Yoro, young players who will make mistakes, but United have invested in them because they want them to be, presumably the future of that back line. So at some point you've got to put the trust in them. You've got to invest the time in them and try and sit with them through difficult moments like Joros' slip against Bournemouth or his red card against Atletico. That was a bit harsh. I've been so impressed by how Joros responded to not a great start to the season and then it feels like he's come back from the international break really revitalised.

44:47he's not been perfect by any stretch of the imagination but playing as a fullback as well and sort of you can see him at times learning that role taking a little bit of direction from the senior players around him I think he's already looking way more comfortable and confident there I hope he stays fit because that's been an issue for him but he's been someone that over the last sort of I don't know however many weeks it's been since the international break feels like about a year he he's been one of the players that I have been more encouraged by I would say and I'm pleased for him in that me too what does this mean for Michael Carrick we're going there it's time I think yeah um yeah I think well I was trying to sort of weigh all this up because I I uh I got the uh the Gabriel Clark treatment before the game on on Amazon which I realize now how Lissandro Martinez might have been put on the spot.

45:44He wanted to say what he wanted to say. And Bruno Fernandes last night. Direct questions. And he asked me that. And so I was sort of trying to think, could he still be the manager at Anfield, for example? And I said, yeah, I could see a world where that happens because if they beat Roma and then beat Aston Villa, surely that's status quo. Would that save him? Well, I mean, they didn't dismiss him after Bournemouth, which is the moment where it felt like that was the consideration. And they decided, let's give him to the international break. And we spoke about that on the last pod, didn't we, where even the defeat after Chelsea, where people were sort of questioning that.

46:19No, that never came up then at that point because they'd already decided in these discussions on the Monday after the Bournemouth game. So I just don't see how you could then dismiss him after two wins. Well, the thing was, last night at halftime, I heard more than one person say on the concourse, he can't be in charge any longer. He can't even take the Aston Villa game if it's going to be like this. because of how damaging that first half was. But then that second half, maybe a couple of tactical tweaks here and there. That's it. So it's two things, isn't it? It's the tactical tweaks and it's the connection that he still retains with the fans.

46:52And you can't dismiss that. I know that that feels nostalgia. What does it really mean? What we want is the best person for the job. That is true. You read in the comments, aren't you? I actually don't read any comments anymore. No. Because this is what you also... I didn't even see this when I tweeted something last night about the resurrection of Carrick's tenure, maybe. Yeah, the first sort of seven or eight comments I read were not agreeing, shall we say. But managers have lost their jobs in the past when they've lost their connection with the fans. Yeah, that's not good. Famously Dave Sexton, and in a tangible way when attendances decline.

47:28So when people talk about 86, the last time it was as bad as this, attendances were down 30 % by this stage of the season. it's not really happening at Manchester United now. Isn't it amazing that, by the way? Yeah. You just look at people coming to the game and you're like, I think this is incredible that it's been, they've not won for, was it 10 games before last night? People are still there in force. There's still 70 ,000 people there for the game. Yeah. I met loads from around the world as well. Loads of people listening to this podcast. Pretty normal now. I'll be there. And it's like, hi, I'm from Seattle or I'm from wherever.

48:04and they absolutely love Manchester United. The size of the club is massive. A young gentleman called Shea came up to me from Ireland. Remember me? Remember my name? Did all right in the second half, didn't he? And then he came on in the second half. Obviously, Scouse Irish. I know it. Demand is spectacular, but it has lessened off. You did see some empty seats against Bournemouth, which should also be a warning to the club that the support shouldn't be taken for granted. But what do you think it then means for Carrick? Where do you place all this? I think if he beats Villa, then I'm not making a decision.

48:44Like Ian says, he's not making a decision. I'm not picking Shea Lacey against Villa. But you should do, because you sit right next to the manager. You should just say to him one day, do you just want to swap seats, mate? There's been a few times where Michael, Carrick and Steve Holland have been stood there in conversation. They're as close to me as Laurie is. and I feel like, just put Benjamin Sesko on. Come on, lads. Imagine if you did. I know somebody who got to know Fergie a bit years ago. I'm saying an intactical bit. Well, he went into Carrington once and went, have you thought about this with doing this with Alan Smith?

49:13And he just said the relationship was never, ever the same. He just looked at me like I was a piece of shit. I'm like, who on earth are you, a schoolteacher, to tell me what to do? And then not long after he started using Alan Smith in midfield. Yeah, yeah. It's a good idea, that. Day before the Roma game, actually. Do you know what I loved, just really quickly, on speaking about people that were near the dugout, did you see the clip of Nicky Butt, Wayne Rooney, and Ashley Young celebrating the Cunyau goal right next to Carrick? Carrick is instantly right, who do I, and he puts on De Ligt, doesn't he, to kind of shore things up a bit.

49:47So he's actually, doesn't really celebrate it, which is, again, I think what you want to see in that moment, the coldness. But yeah, it was great to see sort of three former legends of the club sort of celebrate in that clearly joyful way that play it back to him when they're doing the next podcast well i hope the licks can play you know i know he only had a couple of minutes but i hope he can play we need to build him up now don't we yeah obviously como was absolutely necessary but there needs to be a few games where he gets minutes and he gets back into it because he can be important in answer to your question if he beat villa i'd be stunned if michael carrick lost his job do you think this if they if it doesn't go well that game there's then the conversation again Have they already decided, in your opinion?

50:28No, I have no evidence that they've decided to sack Michael Carrick. And yeah, I speak to lots of people. I'm sure you all do and you might say different things. No, no. I think it is also prudent that Manchester United are aware of what the market is and who might be available. So is this period giving them sharper awareness of what they could do? Yeah. Agents will call Manchester United and say, look, I've got my client here. He could do this, he could do that. Manchester United are always aware of what the market is and he might be available. That's just how it is. And if you get beat 6-0 against Villa, it brings it right back into focus again.

51:09But obviously that's not going to happen. Fun game, isn't it, Sunday? It's a big one. Unai Emery. Yeah, we'll talk about Unai Emery in a moment. Yeah, Michael will win the game, just ruffle his hair a bit and walk off. Well, he's won two already, hasn't he? He beat him, Villa Real boss. beating Aston Villa last season. Yeah, that's true. 100 % record. I think the danger is that you have a high of last night and then you go into Villa at the weekend and they had a bad night actually getting battered 3-0 at Barcelona. But you go into the game at the weekend and you're back to where you were before and if that does happen then the international break does offer a very solid opportunity because we said about some of the tactical tweaks that he maybe made to help bring about the comeback in the second half but again, the approach at the start, the fact that They seem to struggle so much with the man-to-man approach.

51:54Dallow's positioning as well, if he was instructed to do that. They're all legitimate concerns and criticisms. United have got, I think, no matter what happens against Villa, they've got to make a really clear-headed decision. The question is, obviously, do you trust them to do that? Neither decision, I think, is actually a popular one. I don't think that keeping Michael Carrick would necessarily be that popular among a lot of people. I think a lot of people would also be very critical if they let him go, particularly if there's a win on Sunday. So this is where you need the experts, the people who are supposed to be best in class, to sit and take a level-headed view of what they've seen.

52:37And what they've seen is a man who got some really good, amazing results last season from an underperforming group who had buy-in from that group, who's shown a little bit of that again last night, but also whose tactics have fallen really short in a lot of games and who has looked at times like he's not been able to get that intensity out of the group so there needs to be you know we're looking at it from you know we get as much insight as we can but we're looking at it from the outside in the people who are in that boardroom have got to make a decision I think they've got to take ownership of it as well you know if Carrick stays on it can't just be a case of you know for instance Eric Ten Hag's FA Cup final earning him a reprieve only for them to not really have maybe that full confidence in him and it just be kicking the can down the road.

53:25If they back him, they need to back him. They need to say, no, this is our guy and we're going to stick with him because we believe that he can turn it around long term. So they need to show conviction. I think it will be a decision that they're very nervous to make either way. But this is why they're there and they've got to show some conviction in these moments. Yeah, absolutely. An aspect of last night, actually, which caught a few people's eye was the sight of JJ Gabriel and his squad number on the back of the programme, which is the first Manchester United sight of him for some time. However, there is an athletic report now that he is leaving the club.

54:03What's the latest on it? Yeah, I mean, we've hinted at this, haven't we? I think this was the feeling when it was clear that that was his intention, that he communicated to the club. Now there's different issues around that, shall we say. But it is our information that the deal for him to go to Real Madrid is very close. And that's the expectation for the January transfer window. Yeah, there's obviously little bits and bobs to sort out final terms, I'd imagine. But yeah, we feel that that's now a move that's expected to happen. I think Real Madrid were always the frontrunners, shall we say, when the JJ Gabriel story kind of kicked off Barcelona, PSG, Bayern Munich, are all had interest and Manchester United have certainly made a case to try and keep him but ultimately the terms being what they are he can leave to the best of our knowledge and a move to Real Madrid in January is now getting very close.

55:00How much of a blow is it and we've expected it to come we've talked about it a bit but you know this sounds more final than anything we've heard before. It's definitely a blow. The excitement around him has been very real. His talent is very real. The goals he's scored and the way that he's played, that's tangible and it's there. and at the age he is, the excitement for what he could grow into is massive. The thing is just how much status, how much money, how much status, how many minutes are you prepared to give a kid who's just turned 16? No player is bigger than the club. My impression, I didn't watch anywhere near as much of the youth teams last season as probably Andy did or even Laurie did, but my impression from what I have seen of JJ Gabriel was not that he was ready for regular first team minutes.

55:57So if that is what has been the stumbling block, I don't know if it has, if that was the stumbling block, I feel that United have reached a reasonable conclusion that that wasn't something that they were prepared to give. So I think the main blow is the fact that it's just this. It's one, the talent you're losing, but it's also the financial thing. I think we understand that it'll just be like compensation, right? which would probably be just a six-figure sum rather than potentially in the future or had it worked out differently contractually. A nine-figure sum. Well, you know, that's a shame.

56:32But the bigger shame is the talent that you're losing. But I'm not going to lose sleep over it yet. Maybe that will come back to bite me in years down the line when he scores a hat trick at Old Trafford for someone else. but I feel that... They'll sign him back for a world record fee in a few years if history is anything to go by. I feel that the club have got to make tough decisions sometimes and maybe this is one of them. We don't know everything that's happened behind the scenes or I certainly don't, Laurie might. It wasn't that he wanted regular first-team football from what I could tell but certainly moments of showing this is what we feel like the level that you're at and now you can debate certainly whether that was the right thing to do or not but ultimately Real Madrid are signing him.

57:17And I know that they sign several young talents. It doesn't always work for them, but if Real Madrid are signing you, then I think it shows the kind of quality that you possess and their belief in him. Andy, do you think this is a reflection of where United are at, or is this just a unique case? Both. I feel conflicted, I feel concerned. The rules work against Manchester United. I was told a year ago, it's 50-50 whether we keep him or not. and that wasn't the choice of the club. I spoke to loads of coaches who've worked with him, they speak really highly of him as a player, but he's still very young, there's still no guarantees that he's going to make it, but he's as good as you can get for that age.

57:57Sad because he doesn't continue his progress with Manchester United, but as Keris said, sometimes difficult decisions need to be made, not that Manchester United have fully made this decision, and sometimes Manchester United need to stand up for Manchester United. and that age group just before they turned 16 is very complex and the market is changing and Manchester United have not benefited from that but there are other times when Manchester United do benefit and have benefited from it. You saw Alejandro Garnaccio join the club for example when the rules worked in United's favour and if not this time they've got their perspective, they're extremely ambitious, maybe history will show that they were right to be and that's why I feel conflicted about it I don't know the lad I've spoken to several people who work with him every day said he's a great kid and they wish him well with a sigh yeah okay well if you want to know more about this situation obviously go and have a look at the piece that Laurie's contributed to on The Athletic

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1:00:35OK, well the Aston Villa game we've began to preview it there a little bit but let's hear a little bit more about Unai Emery and obviously the links that he's had with Manchester United we'll get a glimpse of him on the touchline at Old Trafford on Sunday once again in charge of Aston Villa and this is what David Ornstein had to say about him on the Athletic FC podcast Man United really like Unai Emery as far as we know and I imagine pretty much every leading club in world football would too but it's one thing liking someone and it's quite another being able to get them. Aston Villa have him under contract until the summer of 2029 as far as I know there's no release clause in that deal so no get outs it would be an extremely expensive package financially if you were going to be able to get the opportunity to do so but Aston Villa have no appetite to lose him so they'll probably want to extend his contract and keep him there and they've won a European trophy under him he's in charge he's the king of Villa Park they've built around him they've given him license in the transfer market behind the scenes on the pitch it's an amazing story Villa and Unai Emery and they'll look at that continuing for a lot longer we don't know of Unai Emery being anything other than happy at Villa and let's see what happens around a contract.

1:01:50Maybe at some point in his future, there'll be a move to, I don't know, he's been linked with the Real Madrid, top clubs like Barcelona. And maybe you would put Manchester United in the bracket of teams that a coach like Emery might be interested in joining at some point. But I've had no suggestion that this would be a realistic prospect mid-season. As far as I'm concerned, he's Villa's coach. And if Manchester United are going to make a change, they'll have to look elsewhere. Yeah, interesting to get that insight from David on what he's hearing about this interest around Unai Emery. So that would suggest if they were to make a change during the international break, depending on what happens at the weekend maybe, even the fact we're saying if this result goes one way or the other, that decides it.

1:02:33That's the situation we're in, I suppose. It probably isn't going to be Unai Emery. No, yeah, strong from David there. that had been my sense just because of the cost involved because of the upheaval because of the control he'd want that United now may be in time and obviously David's kind of suggesting that potentially at the end of a season you could revisit it maybe but would that allow for kind of conversations to take place where you kind of get in comfortable with that kind of arrangement? I don't know but yeah that's why I think there's also been this sort of hesitancy or I don't know, I don't feel like there's a clear individual.

1:03:16Yeah, clear consensus, clear identity of a candidate that you'd go, let's go and get him. There's obviously guys that are out of work that you could certainly sort of envisage in that position. But I don't know, I think there's questions around all of them. Antonio Conte has obviously won the league with Chelsea, won the league with Napoli, but he brings a certain brand of management. would that fit him with what United want or need right now? Eddie Howe we've touched on before. There's a compensation package there as well. And then who else we're talking about? Nagelsmann as well, out of work as well.

1:03:55So there's obviously names there, but I don't know. They're all clearly got their own qualities, but whether they would come in and lift things more than what Carrick is doing, and that isn't to give Carrick a free pass at all. I think you're right to make those points about the performances and some of the decisions that have been made. Clearly more is needed, but I go back to it that he is the only guy that they've had in charge that's brought consistent run of results in the Premier League. So I can see why they want to give it as much of a chance as they have been doing. Yeah, the reason we're talking about his job being on a knife edge with this Villa game is because the run last season was so good and that's probably kept him in a job actually.

1:04:39through this period because the run up to the Roma game was so bad, historically bad. I'm sure many supporters going to Old Trafford have never witnessed a run of results like that, a winless run stretching back all the way to the middle of the 1980s maybe. The away form being as bad as the last time Manchester United were relegated, it's a deep issue. On Emery, he's a bit more of a statesman perhaps than some of the other candidates that Laurie spoke about before Is that the type of manager that you think comes next? Because we've flip-flopped so much between these different profiles and different types of bosses post-Alex Ferguson.

1:05:20He'd be maybe more in the Louis van Gaal, Jose Mourinho mould, maybe. We've not had one of them for a bit. He's a top manager, that's the bottom line. Manchester United like him a lot, that's a fact. He's managed at huge clubs, he's managed big egos, he's managed at PSG and Villarreal and Arsenal and he's had big ups and downs. He's been in it a long time. I checked the other day, I first wrote about him when he was 35 years old. So he came from Almeria. I first got my telling off, first telling off from him 2011 when he was at Valencia. So he's an exceptional coach. What was that about? I went to interview a lad called Pablo Hernandez who joined Leeds United and the press officer said, do you want to go in the press conference?

1:06:01And I went in and I sat there thinking it was a normal press conference. Didn't realise there was a civil war going on between the Valencian media and Una Emery. And I asked a question, you know, like a nice innocent question about Pablo Hernandez. And he was just like ready for war. And the press was like, I'm really sorry. You've just walked into a civil war there. Nice one. Anyway, away we go. I went to see him at Villarreal. I thought he was really good. He didn't know who I supported and had mentioned in detail Oli Gunnar Solskjaer's tactics. And I told Oli that. That was when he took them to the semifinals, Champions League, Europa League Cup 2022, a year after beating United for that Villarreal team.

1:06:42Look, he's a top manager. These people tend to make the decisions, not mid-season. So there's a number of factors with Manchester United, and money is one of them. It's the current state of the market, and there's the names Laurie's mentioned. There's other names as well. There's other people, their agent, there's specialists going in there as interims who just want to work in the Premier League. who are firefighters, there's different types of managers. I don't think any of them are an absolute easy sell. No. If you say like Luis Enrique joins tomorrow, everyone's like, wait, it's not going to happen.

1:07:16So it's complicated. On the money point, obviously we know there's the revolving credit facility. We know that there are considerations with SCR in the Premier League and also the financial restrictions that UEFA have. But if United really wanted to do it, and I don't know how much it would cost even to get someone like Emery, maybe£15 million, maybe upwards of that, to get him out of Aston Villa. They could do it, couldn't they, if they really wanted to? If they have to, because if you're saying£15 million and it pales into what you get by missing out on the Premier League, if you're going down, you're going to lose£150 million.

1:07:48Well, if you go and sign a centre-forward in January, it's going to cost a lot more than£50 million compensation for a top manager. And I think more broadly, that's where United need to be looking at. They got caught out this summer in the transfer window. it ran away with them because they were probably thinking they could get players for 80 million who ended up going for 115 million. That's a difficult solution but Manchester United need a solution to it. They might just have to. It's not ideal. A few months after giving, it's not just Michael Carrick, it's his coaching staff as well. So Unai Emery doesn't come in by himself.

1:08:21Well, no, and he comes with people above and below. That's another complicating factor for the current hierarchy. Yes, it is. It is. and they all, you know, very rare is the man who comes in by himself and says, right, I'm here. They don't often bring execs with them though, do they? They sort of dictated that a little bit at Villa. Yeah, and because his status means that he can do that. But if Luis Enrique comes in, he'll just rip the whole thing up and it might take years. But your point about, United have tried everything and none has really worked with any conviction. The one thing about it, has it ever felt like they've had the best?

1:08:54And I don't even know if Unai Emery is. But was he the best at that? Him and Guardiola were seen as one and two 10 years ago. I almost feel like he was almost second best to Guardiola. But when he signed, he probably was, but maybe. If he'd got him in 2013, potentially. They've been unlucky with timing. I said this a few pods ago. But I counted that straight away and said, well, have a plan and make sure you're not caught out by timing. But the club's not at the status it was. It's still a huge club. No, I know. I'm just frustrated. You have people like Edward Wood saying, this is Disneyland to Jurgen Klopp.

1:09:23Yeah. Or Rafa Honigstein's book is so revealing about that that whole cell yeah and clap ed woodward said to me in 13 um jürgen klopp at dortmund's a genius on the record and but at the time david moyes was safe in his position so it's um august 2013 yeah i mean not been there long it's david was there for nine or 10 months early august 20 yeah it was actually july pre-season yeah if you kept Moyes for the six years he got offered a contract would United have been any worse if Oli could have been any better rough really rough it's that question isn't it it's like at the time it feels like it has to come and it was actually late for Moyes really late in inverted commas for Oli even though actually maybe you could revisit that you know late for Jose you could revisit that actually so it's that timing that's why i think need tomorrow's man or today's man actually well but wasn't supposed to be tomorrow's well he was tomorrow's man they need today's man i should have clarified that properly they need i'd never feel like they've been out today's man manages the best team in the world and united aren't that yeah but but that if they if they can't compete with the transfer fees that are going around if they can't attract the very very best players that they can get financially that is out of their control it's not but you know what i mean they can go after the best execs and they can go after the best managers that is actually one thing financially that they can still do whether there's the pull there and everything else with it i don't know that's a different conversation commercial man yeah so they got him and he said i came because it's the biggest club in the world and perhaps he wanted to come back and work in england as well and he's done some commercial deals but it would be a lot easier to do them if Manchester United were truly great again yeah it's that virtuous circle isn't it success and success if Unai Emery did come obviously it's pie in the sky right now and it doesn't sound like from what David said that it's going to happen no matter what happens in the Villa game but if he did come and he was saying you know I want to work with these people what would that mean for the current setup and Jason Wilcox who you've written about this week a lot of focus on him right now from the chance and the crowd and the work that he's doing anyway.

1:11:43There's a bit of a moment here where he's coming into sharper focus. Yeah, I think it's, and I was thinking it's unusual. I suppose Ed Woodward got quite a bit of this, didn't he? But it probably is unusual that an executive is getting this much attention, even them discussing it, you know, Ashley Young, I think mentioned it on Amazon Prime before the game. So... Peter Smichel, you mentioned in the piece, very strong. Very strong, yeah. About it, yeah. I think that was on the Overlap Daily, wasn't it, where he was saying about his history as a player. You don't need to plug all the podcasts in the world.

1:12:13Sorry, I'm just making sure that we credit appropriately given our sourcing guidelines. And City, Leeds even. And so I think, to be honest, for fans, I don't want to patronise them because ultimately, if he does a good job, they'll cheer him. You look at Matt Busby's history, you look at various other people that have done stuff at rival clubs and then come to United and kind of been celebrated. Rio Ferdinand came from Leeds, for example. So I think people would get behind him. But I think the idea is that you have to be really top to do that. And whenever it's now going sour, I think that element of, well, you worked at City for years and it was so fresh.

1:12:50It was so like across the, you know, the divide where there was, you know, kind of there was certainly tension, I would say, between United and City over different practices. Obviously, we know about some of them, but and also then kind of earning the right to have that role. I think that's when people, if it's not going right, they'll say, well, what are your credentials for that? So obviously him doing the senior role at Southampton previous to this point is that trajectory. And then Dan Ashworth being let go when I think for a lot of people he was seen as somebody that had done it before and could build in the way that United wanted them to.

1:13:24Well, Jason Wilcox wasn't appointed to do the role that he's currently doing either. Technical director now to director of football and it wasn't announced. It was kind of like a staff email. you know and so you know and obviously Omar Barada worked with him at Man City so there's that connection there and that's that's I do think that's an element of why it's turned sort of so sharply I think if he didn't have that background I don't think it would be quite as as as um I don't know focused and targeted but that being said you are in this position you know you have to it's a it's a job that is open to scrutiny and you're going to get people that have got very strong feelings about it and that's why i think you know making these questions are justified um and so yeah that was what the piece was trying to do trying to present a sort of fair and accurate and balanced uh appraisal of what he's done in his career to this point from people that have worked with him and to now as well so you definitely get people that will say his ability to spot talent is really high um and i think we can see football with him yeah you can say what you think of this left back and he'll know yeah um that's definitely a strong point of his i i He's working with a budget and I think he's absolutely trying his best.

1:14:34But when you're in his position, you are going to be judged on the transfer activity. And I think it's fair to say that the summer transfer activity from where we're looking at now was underwhelming. And the previous year, I think he was doing well. I think he was bringing in players. It's quite hard to argue now when you've won one in nine league matches. But I think players like Lamans and Mbumo and Cunha and Sesco. I like Sesco. I think he's going to be decent, but he's injured. So it's hard to argue the case. It's also the managers, isn't it? So now if there is a change, it'd be a third change in three years.

1:15:10And now obviously that's not all on Jason Wilcox. There's Jim Ratcliffe is definitely a figure to be aware of here. The Glazers also, the general financial picture of the club. But I think if you've come in, as Ineos have done, with this idea of we're going to set a game model, it's going to be you know top down and this is the guy that is our key football individual you're on the training pitches with the coaches watching it you know understanding the temperature of the club that's on you i would say to kind of sustain that and obviously they had a big bloke with reuben amarin which fine maybe amarin was fault there for kind of you know jason backed amarin more than anyone in the club until he didn't yeah until then it caused an issue with the formation and that you know so that's also what fans were saying at the time after that wolves game weren't it to change formation yeah for sure i get that but that's when i would argue is there a finesse there from someone in that position to then manage that situation so it doesn't get to that level and maybe again i don't know but maybe it was always going to blow up like that but i feel like there's a there's a there's therefore fair questions to be asked around that you know what i mean when you're when you're now in this position again i spoke to a few sports directors um should you do media i'm gonna get a very mixed bag of response from absolutely meet journalists off a record every four months one of them a big club said to me don't do it in times of stress or relation um elation sorry um and others like talking to media others don't do anything at all you know did cheeky do anything at manchester city almost nothing nothing it was always um caldoon who would do jewish chelsea sports directors they've got about 32 the aren't you Chelsea?

1:16:51I don't even know who it is now. So on the continent where this model is much more normal and people like Ruben Amirim or Unai Amri are used to working with them. Very different tactics. I think though at the moment, you just want a bit of clarity for what they're working towards. And I don't know who, and then this has been an issue with United actually beyond Ineos. Who's the voice of the club? Who's the one who sort of explains this is what we're doing and this is why we're doing it. You're talking about game model. You know, who's the one who's communicating that? Has that ever been written down to everyone, by the way?

1:17:23But then they should know it, in a way. I don't even know if it needs to be written down per se. It should be clear, and if you go from Erickson Haag to Ruben Amarin to Michael Carrick to whoever else now comes in, that is surely not consistent. And a few years into Ineos, people are going, all right, I'm judging you now on 15 or 20 decisions, and you've got a lot of them wrong. So they're going to be criticized if it cuts its results. If they're top of the league, then everything is completely different, but they're not, and it's been disgraceful this season. so there's going to be criticism for everybody and scrutiny for everybody that that's totally normal in football wherever you go if anyone moves on to another club it's exactly the same and it's not even that bad i i saw one of gary neville's last games in valencia when he got beat 7-0 7-1 in camp now and the valencian journalists were pointing to him going you are an absolute disgrace and then that was getting translated it wasn't even a question it was like I just love the moment where he's getting shouted at in Spanish and then the translator next to you is like, oh, right, okay.

1:18:22Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Gary's like, just wait a minute. I'm doing three-hour Spanish a day. Oh, right, you're not so keen on me continuing in this role. Lo siento, señor. There are cultural differences. Dos servicios, sorry, des poes. It's tough. It's tough for everyone. And I think fans look at that league table and think Manchester United should not be here. Why? And people look for reasons and they're entitled to look for reasons. And you're talking about the game model. What is Manchester United's game model? Well, it changes with each manager. It's changed under Michael Carrick. It's one of the reasons it's not been effective.

1:19:00People have sussed Man United. Kerris, what happens on Sunday? Well, you want me to... I don't know. Kerris' crystal ball. Kerris' crystal ball, yeah. You can make a nice feature of that. I just think... Hell of a question that, what happens Sunday. Isn't it? I thought you were just going to be like, what do you think, Harris? No. What do you think, Harris? You can deflect onto that if you want to have your say. I just wanted to mention on the sort of who's the voice of the club thing, I think Jim Ratcliffe has a role to play here. I think when he took over, he sat down and he answered a load of questions from journalists.

1:19:40And he was the one who said, we're going to have a Manchester United style of football and a game model. And now on the United stuff, he's gone quite quiet. I know he has done some interviews where he's spoken about the club and he's spoken about what's going on at the club. But a lot of the time that you see him in the news, it feels as though he is, it's Manchester United co-owner Jim Ratcliffe talking about climate change, immigration, petrochemicals. And that's part of his job. He owns a petrochemicals company. It's mad though that all those things are not as important as Manchester United on people's news agenda.

1:20:13No, but he, I guess my point is just that when he took over, there was that bit of transparency maybe, or that bit of wanting to be more of a voice and a spokesperson. I don't think we see so much of that. He did the interview with United We Stand. And it was good. Yeah. I mean, we disagree. And people went, you know, don't agree with what he's saying, but fair play, he's done it. has that continued i don't think so but to bring it back to your actual question rather than the one i wanted to answer what happens on you're allowed to do that you don't need my permission um i think that the massive question right is obviously how does last night translate there's questions also harry maguire came off obviously we i'd be i'd be absolutely staggered if carlos was available for the foreseeable so that he's not going to play does andre santos come back in what happens there if Maguire can't play on Sunday what happens there's massive questions over the team selection before you even get to the sort of nuts and bolts of how do they respond do they then look at that game against Roma and go okay well we've done that we can do that or does it come back to this is the Premier League and we've been awful in the Premier League and we're going to continue to be awful in the Premier League I wouldn't be that surprised if there is more of a response just because they have seen that they can do it.

1:21:36I think that game last night will be fresh in their minds on Sunday and hopefully there's a bit of belief that comes from that. But Aston Villa are a good side and as we've just touched on, really well coached team. I watched their game against Man City the other week. The way that Emery can kind of get the best out of players, like Nicholas Jackson for instance, he's suddenly returned him to a centre-forward who was scoring goals in the Premier League. Emi Buendia, Johan Manzambi, so many players there that United have got to be really aware of that I think will, with respect to Roma, probably bring more of a difficult game plan for United to deal with and more quality throughout the game in terms of the intensity they give it throughout than Roma maybe did last night.

1:22:23so it's a very different test and the question is then you know can you show the same resilience in that situation as you've showed on you know this mad european night where you know the champions league is where mental stuff happens is that a one-off or is that the resilience that you then take into the league as well i think there will be a response but i think villa will be a much more difficult game to pull that off in she's saying 2-1 with a tielemans winner cheers I said 3-1 actually 3-1, okay Away from home more so than at home When they've had these big moments And the plan, like you said The Manchester City plan It does tend to come at Villa Park I've covered some huge victories for them In the Premier League Against the very best But at Old Trafford I don't think Unai Emery Has won at Old Trafford with Villa I think it was 2021 the last time they won In fact they've only won twice At Old Trafford in Premier League history 2021 and 2009 Off the top of my head so it's not really a Fernandes penalty that was the beginning in the end for Oli that was Emi Martinez going let him take it and it was Ronaldo and Bruno next to each other wasn't it do you know who scored the winner?

1:23:29defender defender corner corner Dean Smith was manager Courtney House Courtney House well done good knowledge Midlands correspondent I've been saying you used to play for Wolves actually Courtney House so yes so they're very much a Midlands correspondent yeah it just it's got to continue hasn't it It's got to continue, please. They're gettable. Villa. Yeah. That defence. Have you seen them play Barca? Did you see any of the Barca? I've not seen any, but they conceded three goals. Is that Barca on the side? Yeah. Come on. You know, rubbish. Yeah. Yeah, the rubbish. Conceded three to Bournemouth.

1:24:02Yeah. 1-1 against Fulham. Fulham had chances, by the way. You wonder what they've got in the legs after Barca as well this week. That was a really important point. I know, but they're not used to. That pitch, Andy. Yeah, it's big. You've seen that pitch, right? Yeah. They're not used to weeks like this. as a group are they I don't know I'm trying to yeah I know trying to hope that we're not sat here next week doing a crisis podcast again I know live streaming at home because we're waiting on news of what's happening with the manager I mean if it has to happen it has to happen clearly and we'll cover it as best we can but you just want it to be a different narrative for a bit you do just what a win just beat Villa everything will be sweet for a bit okay we'll leave it there it's been a marathon talk the devils in more ways than one I hope you enjoyed it talking about a victory for a change.

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