Are Man United’s finances holding them back?

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1:49This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up on the episode today, we take a deep dive, yes indeed, into Manchester United's latest financial results. The end of the tax year, 25-26, has brought some interesting numbers and we will explain to you exactly what they mean and exactly what impact they could have on Manchester United's plans, on stadiums, on transfers, all sorts of different aspects. We've got Chris Witherspoon with us, the athletics finance expert, football finance expert, to do that. And we're also going to look ahead a little bit as well to see if we can lift the gloom a little bit that we're all feeling about Manchester United at the moment and work out how exactly the team, Michael Carrick, the players, the fan base, everyone can move forward from what's been a really disappointing start to this new season.

2:38Hello, Andy. Hello, Laurie as well. And Chris is joining us right at the very top as well. Thank you, Chris. Before we get into it then and before we talk about all the different aspects of this, I'm just going to hit you all with some headline figures from the financials that were released earlier on today on Wednesday. So these are the sort of main takeaways, I suppose, that the Athletic have picked out. So first of all, Manchester United's wage bill dropped to£302 million last season. That's the club's lowest spending on salaries in six years. The club generated a record£677.6 million in revenue, which was largely driven by the third-place finish, which was achieved in the Premier League.

3:22United reported a bottom-line loss, though, of£43 million, marking the seventh consecutive year of losses that now totals nearly£450 million of losses since 2019. The total financial debt up to£689 million by the end of June. That's a£52 million increase over the previous year. Wages to revenue ratio fell to 44.6%. That's the lowest proportion of income spent on player costs in 18 years. United invested£63.5 million to acquire 25 acres of land near Old Trafford. That's a plot, of course, intended to use for the new stadium that will be built and available cash as well down to 67.2 million, which is a 13 year low.

4:12And that stood around 300 million pounds before the pandemic. So you can see how these things are changing. There's more details that we'll get through as well. But Chris, I suppose, first of all, what's your biggest takeaway with the expertise you've got of these figures announced today? Too much pressure. Call me an expert twice. I did notice how you caveat it by putting football finance expert in front of it, just in case anyone got ahead of themselves. Well, I didn't think you'd be giving mortgage advice, Chris, but go on then. Definitely not. Yeah, big takeaway. I think they kind of show the product of really the cost cutting that we've seen in the last two and a half years.

4:48You know, I mean, like I said, that wage bill, that's the overall club wage bill. You know, at just about every football club, apart from the ones that get relegated, wages go up. But at Manchester United, they keep coming down. And it's a bit of a weird one because you want to be more efficient. And last year, United were more efficient. They finished third in the league. We don't know where their wage bill landed because nobody else has put out figures. But it's almost certainly the highest it was was fifth. It could have been even lower than that. So the fifth highest in the league or maybe the sixth highest in the league.

5:21Yeah, it might even be seventh. We don't know. because, you know, so like in 24, 25, Villas was 273 million. So not that far off 300 million. Spurs was 255 and they've invested since. So we don't know exactly where United was, but we do know that it was like a really, really, really long way behind the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea, increasingly Arsenal. Arsenal was 47 million higher a year ago and it will have definitely gone up last year because they got the Champions League finally won the league. So, I mean, in that sense, obviously, in one year, they overachieved. But I think maybe the main takeaway is, well, that is very much booking a trend, not just like recently, in all of football wages.

6:09If we talk about what financially correlates with on the pitch, it's not transfer spending, it's wages. So the question comes, well, can United keep up booking that trend? and I think, I know we're only five games in, but it's hard to see how they do that. It's hard to see how they compete on, you know, four fronts if they're keeping the wage bill down. Now, don't get me wrong, the wage bill will go up this year because they're back in Europe, they're back in the Champions League and Marcus Rashford's back, who was a big part of why the wage bill came down. But yeah, there's a lot we can get into, I'm sure we're going to, but I think if we talk about the most important thing, which still is the football, despite my job, and it'll be very interesting to see can united remain competitive with the environment that they're now working in pretty stark lorry isn't it when you look at these figures i mean the headline i suppose for me aside from the wage bill which chris has explained there the debt's 52 million pounds again 689 million pounds at the end of june and this is before the stadium has even been accounted for.

7:15Okay, there's 60 odd million quid's worth of payments made to acquire land around Old Trafford for a potential new stadium build, but there's a lot of debt already and if they're going to borrow even more, what impact is that going to have? How on earth is the club going to remain competitive with this going on? Well, listen, it's a reminder of the Glazer takeover, leverage buyout, a scandal that it happened and United are still having wounds inflicted because of it and here's another example of it because I think you look at the operating profit that United reported turns into another loss 43 million you know partly down to a big part I suppose you could say because I was asking Chris about this earlier today I was like is it directly correlated in terms of the the interest payments that are being made because of the long-term debt the Glazers have put on the club something like 37 and a half million pounds annually it's going to go up because they've had to refinance that because it was due for renewal in 2027 so the interest rate on that has gone up a couple of percentage points probably another 10 million pounds on top of that and the cost of actually doing the refinance i'm right in saying i think is seven and a half million so put that all together 44 million pounds of cash just going out of the club because of the the honor of having the glazers own them and so that's a player right i mean look at what united signed yuri telemans for a couple of players when you look at amortization Yeah, yeah.

8:36I mean, we can get into that a little bit as well, you know, in terms of, because the big question, right, fans have been saying is, could United have spent more? Could Ineos, you know, the current hierarchy together with the Glazers, because they're still majority owners, have spent more this summer? And I think it explains why United didn't. People will perhaps say, well, you did spend£63.5 million on land being acquired and United could have spent that money on a player. I think it is fairly straightforward in those terms. But I think the wider picture, obviously, is trying to be prudent, I suppose.

9:08Listen, because a player can succeed, might bomb. United have certainly had a few of them. Whereas land will retain its value. It's an investment, isn't it? And obviously, the long-term goal is to build a stadium there. A stadium makes the asset much more appealing to investors if there's a sale further down the line. A lot of people tell me this February 2027 date where the option on the shares changes and the Glazers can sell for less than the$33 per share I think that Ratcliffe paid. And then if he doesn't match that, then he can be forced along in a full sale. Whether that happens or not, I mean, how many people out there can afford it?

9:44But obviously, if you're building a stadium, if you've got land, that makes the asset more valuable to people rather than necessarily a player whose value might diminish. Obviously, if they recruit well, then the football is better. And I think that's the conundrum that you're looking at really, isn't it? And that's why people might criticise and say they could have spent more. But at the same time, where's the money coming from? It's coming from when they refinance this long-term debt, the extra, I think,£95 million that they got in addition to that. So they're taking on more debt to refinance it at a higher percentage rate, but not have to pay it back in full next year.

10:18but probably a lot of words and a lot of numbers but essentially it's basically it's not their own cash that they'd be spending in that regard, it's cash that they've borrowed so they have to pay that back at some point so at some stage you have to go can we just stop spending money that we don't actually have but it all stems from the fact that the Glazers took over the club and placed it in £604 million of debt, I think it was back then 20 odd years ago now it's increased, it's never going to go down as long as they're involved because why would they pay it off? And why would anybody else come in and pay it off?

10:51You are basically looking at a nation state to do that as obviously the Sheikh Jassim, Qatari bid proposed that they would do. But then that brings a whole load of other questions and uncertainties and discomfort, I suppose, around being state-owned. So yeah, it just explains the whole picture really at United and it leaves me feeling kind of bleak around it, to be honest. whilst at the same time I appreciate you know there's still you have to have a little bit of hope that okay they're trying to take action to adjust it for the future yeah the thing is Andy at some point as Manchester United fans we are going to be cheered up by something unfortunately it definitely isn't the financial picture that's been presented today it makes pretty grim reading doesn't it so Jim Ratcliffe has said a couple of times that there is a clear correlation in football with very few outliers where wages equal success.

11:47What you spend on players, what you spend on your team, equals success. And I'm just struggling to marry how Manchester United intend to win the league in 2028 if the wage bill is going to be the 5th or the 6th or the 7th or the 4th highest, going against what Sir Jim Ratcliffe has said. And also, back to the Glazers, I did a piece for The Athletic a couple of days ago about the ownership I said basically what Laurie said You've got this persistent debt, this persistent cloud It's what the fans said would be a problem The fans were absolutely right And I saw one in a comment saying Andy, you're not an accountant You're not a football finance expert That debt is perfectly serviceable by Manchester United Chris, you are a football finance expert Again, we'll say that again How do you view the debt that Manchester United carry?

12:38Well, I think the thing is that, you know, in isolation, and if we were talking about a business, and we're not, we're talking about a football club, but if we're talking about a business, it would be perfectly serviceable. And that was why they bought Man United in the first place. And that was why they loaded the debt onto it. Because they knew that the club could afford it. Now, we're going to afford it a lot less than it could at the time, because now it's gone from being a really profitable club to one that's losing money and the one that's relying on more debt and has relied on money from the owners.

13:03But if we're talking about just a business, that would be accurate. But we're not, are we? We're talking about a club that has to compete with other clubs that are owned by very different individuals and very different backers. You know, the vast majority of clubs, even now, the Premier League have never had more money. The vast majority of clubs are reliant on owners putting money in. So that's an immediate, obvious disadvantage for Manchester United. Manchester United have always had one of the highest revenues in the league. But even if you look in the piece that I've put out today, I've done a graph where we see United's revenue against just the average of the other big six clubs.

13:42So the other five of them. And the gap has really, really narrowed. And now we're at a point, you know, Arsenal earned, like I said, we don't know the exact figures yet, but we can confidently state that Arsenal earned more than United last year. Liverpool earned more than United last year. City earned more than United last year. So there's three straight away. Chelsea potentially earned more than United last year. They've said that they definitely did, but I'm a little bit sceptical about some things that Chelsea say. Either way, there's three or four teams that have earned more money, but don't have these massive debt repayments to finance.

14:15City, we know who City are backed by. Liverpool have owners who have ran them sustainably, but the Liverpool's owners put money in to improve Anfield and stuff like that. It was interest-free and whatnot. Chelsea, nothing more need be said. So really, when we're talking about a football club, it is putting United at a structural disadvantage. And I think it's really interesting, actually, if we compare the environment United are in now versus when the Glazers did what they did 21 years ago, because they took over at a time when not all these clubs lost an absolute fortune and when the gulf wasn't so vast and when really the only other show in town in terms of that could have loads of money thrown at them was Chelsea under a bar.

14:58But now we've got into a situation where through years of mismanagement, you know, through years of like decline in performance on the pitch, United have, they've lost that revenue advantage, but they've still got these massive debt payments to service each and every year. So I think, I think, I think someone's been a bit disingenuous to say, because, you know, they can't, they can't almost service it. But in terms of being a competitive football club at the same time, it's very difficult. and one more point is in february this year a businessman in manchester successful businessman and a big manchester united fan he said something which struck me because i'd never heard it before he said going back to that point when the the takeover went through 20 22 years ago 21 years ago manchester united were actually negligent in not having any debt because it made the club so attractive to people like the glazers because they didn't have any debt if they had some debt Rather than walking around and saying we've got no debt, we're fantastically well run and profitable, it would have been less attractive to vultures like the Glazers.

16:01Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting way to spin it. I didn't know what to say, you know? Yeah, and I kind of... Not as crisp by the sounds of it. You flummoxed me. Well, I suppose that the takeover as was and the structure of it and how it was done would not be allowed to be done today either. No, it wouldn't. Why wouldn't it, Chris? What rule would stop it happening? Because we did specific podcasts last year on the Glazers and I don't feel we get a very clear answer as to why it couldn't happen again now. So the Premier League brought in a rule, I think the percentage was 65%, but they basically brought in a rule that said that leverage buyouts effectively, if you tried to leverage more than 65 % of the purchase price, they wouldn't let you do that.

16:50But the terrible thing really is this didn't come in in the wake of the Glazer takeover. This came in in the wake of the Burnley takeover because they did busy what the Glazers have done. And actually me and Laurie were talking about this earlier today. That's actually arguably more damaging because although a couple of years ago they got close, United are very unlikely to get relegated. Whereas in Burnley they took over a team that relegation was always a possibility. And now there's a real chance that if Burnley don't come back up, they're going to be in real trouble with these debt repayments.

17:18But anyway, they brought that ruling dead. And I think the point that that guy was making, and I get where he's coming from, but it's a pretty sad indictment of where we're at to say, oh, well, actually, the club that was ran well and the club that was profitable every year, actually, it's their own fault for not taking risks. I think really, actually, what the Glazers did was wrong. And I agree with you guys. It should never have been allowed. But it is also a byproduct of an environment in English football and probably wider football as well, where they just let anyone with money, no matter where it's sourced from, no matter, you know, whatever, they just let them in the game and they let them do what they like with it.

17:56Now the problem for United really is that, like I said, their owners stand very much apart from any other owners in the Premier League. I mean, they've stopped paying dividends now because there's no money there to do it. But for now on 20 years, sorry, for about, I think it was about 12 years or so, United were the only club who paid dividends. And that stood them out. And that was another competitive disadvantage. and it's almost i think in some ways and i don't know whether you guys agree with this but maybe from the outside and not being as invested in it as you guys but maybe part of the reason the effect of it is kind of dimmed is it has taken from a financial point of view it's taken the thick end of 15 to 20 years for it to really start to hit home and it's almost like because it's not there right in front of your face you're like oh well they can't blame them but actually they can't because, you know, I mean, I haven't got it to hand.

18:50But the amount of times that we talk about the interest costs hitting close to a billion and stuff like that, like Laurie said there, you know, even just in refinancing the long-term debt, that costs millions of pounds to do. So all of this is stuff that other clubs just don't have to deal with.

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20:55Yeah, I think actually in recent times when people have said to me, United have got loads of money and you're like, well, actually, the reality is that they haven't or certainly available cash anyway. And when you talk about the amount of money that clubs are being able to spend on transfers and different aspects, United have been operating with this huge weight around their shoulders and money leaving the club consistently when other teams have put that money in. And you look at the direct competition across the city, you've got an almost exact correlation between money leaving Manchester United and money being pumped into Manchester City and how on earth over, what, since 2008, how on earth that competitive balance or rebalancing in the city can ever be addressed I don't know because the gap only seems to be getting bigger if anything in terms of the financial picture I mean Laurie the other aspect of this is obviously Ineos do have a big impact on on these numbers now you know in terms of the day-to-day management of the club and the budgeting and so on they've got a huge if not you know soul saying a lot of it so is this improving under them are they taking the steps that they have to take when is this how can this get better well yeah I They're saying that their calculations, operating profit for the full year was at 22.6 million.

22:15That's profit compared to an operating loss of 18.4 million in the year prior. So obviously that is before various other costs, interest payments and the like are factored in. So that suggests it's going at least on that score in a positive direction. And clearly, very controversial. Certainly the second round of redundancies was, and perhaps the way they did it. but they've obviously streamlined costs at the club and I think to reflect on Chris's first point, that obviously is having an impact and they are obviously being more measured in the market. They pushed the boat out really last summer to get Sesco as well and they've been much more restrained this time which has obviously then caused this swell of opinion that they aren't being ambitious and there is clearly an issue with aspiring towards trying to win the title whilst at the same time also bringing the bank balance into normality.

23:13So I suppose they're in a little bit of a bind there, but at the same time, the wage is coming down a lot. I just don't see how then you are going to be title challengers. You pay money for the best players really, don't you? And it doesn't always work, but that's the strongest correlation in sport, football certainly. and I think they've got, you're right Chris, I mentioned that Rashford wasn't a part of this for last year but then obviously for the coming year, Casemiro's off the wage bill so I wouldn't be surprised if it's kind of similar next year certainly with the players they've bought this time.

23:48I can't think their wages, I think Telemans was on a decent amount of Villa so he'll be on a fair whack here I think. Belieber probably wasn't on loads at Brighton and Andre Santos similarly, I wouldn't have thought of Chelsea. He's pushing too high in the earnings charts So, yeah, they're obviously taking those steps to try and remedy this picture. But you can certainly question their spending at times as well. We're still to see whether or not, for example, the£50 million on Andre Santos is prudent spending. But yeah, it just kind of makes me feel, when you look at it, Carrick, to do what he did last season in a financial sense, he massively overachieved.

24:28We knew that at the time. That is absolutely crazy to say that Manchester United's manager overachieved by getting the team to third place. But the financial picture would suggest that that comment is factual, which is ridiculous, really. And when you look at it, the reason why they were able to record a record profit from the previous year, so it went up about 11 million from the previous year, which itself was a record profit. That's basically down to overall Premier League broadcast revenue. For the higher finish from 15th to third. Yeah, that particularly, but generally, clubs are getting more overall anyway from the broadcast.

25:01That's not specific to United, that's just everybody's getting more money. And then obviously, yeah, the rise from 15th to 3rd, so I think it's like 30 odd million, it went up in the broadcast revenue. That's down to Carrick. So, you know, in all this conversation around his job and everything like that, I think that should still be a bit recognised that actually, you know, his impact generated this uptick in revenue that then at least gives them a bit of breathing room to try and do what they want to do. But yeah, I mean, the commercial was down, the matchday was down. Obviously, they had, you know, far fewer matches.

25:34It wasn't down as much as you might expect because of rising ticket prices. So ultimately, who pays this? The fans, either through the subscriptions or through, you know, passing through the doors, passing through the turnstiles at Old Trafford, you know, paying for merchandise. Yeah, I mean, I don't think this factors in, does it, the Betway deal for training kits. So I suppose that's a thing to kind of consider in the commercial. But obviously, they left it 12 months without getting a commercial sponsor, ideally to try and get the most money they could for it. You know, we can question whether Betway was, you know, I don't know.

26:06people obviously have thoughts about gambling companies sponsoring a club of prestige like Manchester United but yeah that obviously wasn't a factor in the commercial revenue so that'll you'd think that'll go up next season particularly in the Champions League and the Champions League fund you know another factor for Carrick there you know was it 45 million in your piece today Chris just from prize money then you get into the broadcast revenue so there's yeah I think you have to factor that in when you when you when you address in and kind of considering Carrick's status i do think the finance that he's added to the club just in this short period should be recognized while we're on managers um just before our head coaches i should say before we let you go chris um and rest your brain after the day you've had um reuben amarin's not an issue anymore is he so that's good yeah no that worked now that was a nice little surprise wasn't it yeah so what are the beauties not a financial issue anymore i should probably clarify actually thinking about it.

27:01One of the beauties, one of the few beauties I'm sure for you guys of United being listed on the New York Stock Exchange is we get an update every three months. And in the last update after Mr. Amarone had been let go at the start of January, the club booked, I think it was 16.7 million worth of potential costs on him. But actually the fact that AC Milan, you know, came riding in on a white horse and hired him in June, that pretty much halved that. So United actually wrote back eight and a half million at that, which, you know, isn't an insubstantial amount of money, especially when we've got all these other things going on.

27:40And I think, you know, really actually, obviously we've talked about the debt and we've talked about the long shadow that's cast in. I think that, unfortunately, is going to be true for a long time still. But I think the other problem for United, really, and it probably stands out most kind of under Ineos and Radcliffe in the dugout is quite costly, like football and mistakes. You know, like... Very good point. Yeah, because, you know, it's interesting actually, like any club that I comment on, that somebody else will find a way to say that I'm biased for them or against them. And what has happened with United in recent years is when I write about their wage bill and we keep their, like, the cost of sacking managers out of it, I've had a few people go, oh, you've got to include them.

28:27And I'm like, well, I don't include them for anyone else. And then somebody said, yeah, because they don't set managers every year. I was like, that's actually a really good point. And while I'm still not going to put them in, it kind of does point to, you know, this is a cost that United have been incurring year and year and year. And look, I'm not saying it's going to happen this year, but there's a realistic chance. I don't think anyone would deny that. And the other point really as well, when we talk about being able to compete, one of the things that a lot of clubs are better at now is celebrating.

28:57them players and selling players for good money and united are still terrible at it i think it's really stark actually how much united struggle to generate money from players like even from like the youth from the young players like we talk about city and you know like obviously city when when their owners came in they spent a small fortune actually a large fortune on building like the academy set up out and you know making sure they've got the best youngsters in the world coming to the blue half of Manchester. But now that's like a long-term benefit they get from that. Go and have a look at the amount of players Man City have sold who've never kicked a ball for them in the Premier League.

29:36They've made hundreds of millions off players like that, whereas United really, really struggled to sell players for a profit. And I think, you know, Rasmus Hoyland went at the end of last year and they recorded, I think they recorded like three million profit in an accountant sense. But in terms of like the actual money they spent from versus what they got from. They lost like 20 million quid or something like that. So that's a big issue. You can't turn that around overnight. You can't turn any of it around overnight, as we're seeing. But I do think that is... Obviously, the debt takes up so much airtime, and rightly so.

30:10But I think the other thing is that the football side of the business has been completely mismanaged. Weirdly, Hoyland's actually a success story of recent times for United because they actually got a fair chunk of a fee for him at the end of it all. Which is mad to say. I mean, there's other clubs. I mean, Arsenal aren't very good sellers until this summer. They told Martinelli to Saudi and that. But Arsenal aren't particularly good sellers. But they were going to start to see the impact of that. Like City are very good sellers. I mean, Chelsea have to be good sellers. Chelsea might as well turn up to a marketplace for footballers.

30:43But it's a huge part of it now. And especially now that United have lost that revenue advantage that we talked about earlier. it's very yeah it's it's it is a big part and I must admit I think Eurie Tillemans is a good sign but if we talk about from the finances they're never going to get that money back and it was only 35 million quid but it's very unlikely they're going to get that money back that's not a problem if he performs for however long his contract is and stuff but in terms of you know generating above and beyond like that revenue one of the reasons Chelsea they've done a lot of things which we definitely don't have time to get into but one of the things Chelsea even when they're out of the Champions League can keep things rolling is that they have always been good sellers they're not a great example because they've signed so many players but it is definitely an area that United need to fix Brilliant Chris it's been fascinating to have you on let's do it every quarter shall we Sounds great Thank you very much Cheers lads Thanks Chris

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33:42do despite it being a pretty dry topic. The good news is next week we're going to have a little bit of a break from talking about Manchester United's problems because you will have seen Andy's series on the Athletic over the summer, Manchester United's top 25 players and we have got three episodes coming your way Monday, Wednesday, Friday looking at Andy's list, talking through some of the stars of Manchester United's past, questioning some of the ridiculous placings Andy Mitton for some of the players. No, I'm joking a little bit. But yeah, we hope that you enjoy those. It should be a little bit of a tonic, maybe, to what's going on at the moment.

34:20And I think we're allowed a week to switch off, maybe, during this international break. So look out for those next week. All the usual things apply. Get yourself subscribed to the Talk of the Devils channel. Get the notifications on as well. And obviously, when those shows go live, you can go and watch them. Right, let's just bring it back to today. There's obviously still a bit of financial stuff to mop up, but let's try and talk about the football a little bit here as well. It's been a pretty turbulent week amongst the fan base after the weekend and all the different arguments that are going on at the moment.

34:52But Andy, how do United as a team, players, the fans, Michael Carrick, the whole thing, how do we move on from what's been a painful start to the season on all fronts, it seems? The players stop it in the post, put the ball in the net. We didn't actually give that stat, did we? So six times they've hit the woodwork at the start of this season in the first five games of a Premier League season. That's the highest number ever recorded. So are we a post between us being more positive or what? So is that record profits and record post-hits? Yes. Sorry. Stop conceding worldies in the last minute. Stop having scandalous VAR decisions going your way.

35:37being more serious I think Manchester United have got to play a lot better I think you would hope that fitness levels are much sharper after the international break I think there's definitely a hangover with some players from the World Cup finals players need to find form, confidence, United just need wins wins as I've said many times that sets 70 % of the mood and a lot of people are fuming because it's been a really disappointing start to the season but the season's only five league games old you know if you're asking me to be positive i'm trying to be pretty hard after going for all them financials if i'm honest yeah but i i don't think that the the squad and the players are as bad as the results so far they better not be because it's relegation form they're averaging a point a game averaging 2.2 under Michael Carrick last year Tottenham look at the fixtures in October Tottenham, Atletico Madrid Tottenham are not doing well Atletico Madrid are doing well so it's pretty ominous and if United don't get right together they're going to be swallowed up Could them playing better teams or maybe Tottenham aside I suppose, playing teams that so far have maybe shown a different approach in the league Laurie help United?

37:01Well you'd hope that it would. This is me really trying by the way. You're basically saying they're not going to come and part you know 11 players down the wall. This is why we're accused of being propaganda basically because we try and see a positive where we can. Well I think that's it unless we've been discussing the financials and you know that's what irritates me about the Glazer takeover the most. It irritates a softer word than what I would like to use but because we should just be focusing on the football. The joy of football is going to the game, watching your team compete against another team, being absolutely at one with it, engaged in it and just feeling it.

37:41Are you sure we want to do that at the start of this season? Well, I would, yeah. But at the same time, then you have this kind of cloud, as you've said earlier, Andy, over the club that then gets reminded, you get reminded of every financial quarter. So anyway, I'm just going to park that for a second. But, you know, so when it comes down to the football, think about January when Michael Carrick first arrived and against Man City, it was thrilling football. You know, Arsenal away, thrilling football. And to your point, that I think does lend itself maybe to United doing better because you've got teams that might come out and they can, you know, counter-attack against them.

38:15But obviously this style of play that's been prevalent this season, it even doesn't necessarily feel like they would be, going that route anyway. United at the moment, it's more possession-based, isn't it? It's more sort of, I don't know, mid-block and not going for the high press necessarily. I think they can do it in bursts. Sesko's injury is interesting. Hopefully, it's only the international break that he's out for, because I do think that's a vital player to have in the mix, just to offer a different profile, offer some kind of point to the attack. I think there's going to be more scrutiny Sorry, Laurie.

38:52I think there's going to be more scrutiny over the decision to not sign a centre-forward. We were saying this, weren't we? We've obviously presented the financial picture at the start, but, you know, buying, using your whole budget on midfield, if Cesco has got the same issue again, he's going to be missing for a chunk of the season again. We're going to be reviewing that decision over and over again, aren't we? We've not got any update, have we, on Cesco? I asked today and got told the results have not come back yet. I imagine it'll be one that doesn't get, you know, I would imagine that United will be very careful over it and various people around it.

39:24And they wouldn't want to necessarily give a definite time frame because obviously it took so long in the summer. And we spoke to him, didn't we, after the game against Sabah when he was really positive and he felt like he'd been chomping at the bit to go there. Well, I think the thought was he was past it, wasn't he? He was past his problems. Yeah, but maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was keeping the pain or whatever to himself because he wants to be out there on the pitch. And therefore, you know, it gets a little bit exacerbated. And I don't think it's a serious thing. I don't, you know, I'm not in that mindset.

39:58I think hopefully it's a bit more rest. You know, like I said, we'll find out from the scans exactly how long a rest at some point. But, you know, anyway, but I agree with you. I think we were saying this, weren't we, striker. They were looking at strikers. They were. Ultimately, they didn't pull the trigger. And I guess the financials are partly the reason why. But that's when you can question and go, okay, well, you know, you did spend. And, you know,£50 million on Andre Santos, you hope that's a good investment. So on the opposite scale to what Chris was saying earlier with Eurie Tielemans, he's 22.

40:28So you could one day see him sold for, you know, the same money or more. So it's kind of like, it feels more of a prudent investment. But there's nothing from his Chelsea days to say, this guy's going to be, you know, a United player starter for years to come. Just yet, you kind of buy more on. I think the data points were good. so that had a bearing on it but I think that ultimately then comes down to could you have got a striker? Could you have got an experienced player just to offer that alternative to allow Kunja to go back on the left? There have been unfortunate the injuries with Ahmad as well because I think Mbumo is a much better player up top than Kunja is but obviously he's needed on the right with Ahmad being out.

41:09Could you shuffle it with Shea Lacey? He's obviously did well against Brighton but equally you don't want to put him into a situation where go on then. win a match for us necessarily. You kind of want to have it. Have you tried Marcus Rashford through the middle? He's another option maybe. I know obviously he's splitting, still massively splitting people's opinion on Manchester United in the start of the season and everything that comes with Rashford being back at United and in the team. But is that worth a try to have him through the middle? I think coming back to the finances briefly, Andy, I think the financial picture just shows that the recruitment has to be absolutely bang on doesn't it and you know we've praised Ineos at times for the decisions that they've made certainly last season that it felt like the players were a success that were brought in but with the start to this season with the questions we've got over the transfer business they're going to be under the microscope with the decisions they've made and what's especially hard is very rare for 100 % of transfers to to be a success like 50-50 isn't it and if you're not buying your players who you think are guaranteed success like the best in the world as manchester united in the past have gone for then there is there even more risk i think chris's point about teedermans was valid but lorry touching on the fact that that the labor and santos are younger if things go to plan and they do play well um then their their value should should appreciate but it all seems that so much of it has got to fall into place and if it doesn't it's a more major setback for for manchester united and they were they were pretty considerable ones in the summer there's no doubt manchester united have struggled to sell players and and should be criticized for that um but um marcus rashford how could you have dealt with that situation differently not give him a contract three years ago um manu garte getting injured joshua zirksy i don't have any magical answers to either of those situations and i would have loved to have seen a left back coming would love to have seen another striker that you're talking about and maybe it's the wishful thinking it just seems more obvious in each game if you could only bring on this magical forward that you've been thinking about and that person doesn't exist and Josh Sirksey comes on so it's it's highly imperfect at the moment but again that team did finish really strongly last year I think that they had something there last year there was a really good momentum and there are really good players there and the best of all was Bruno Fernandez and and he's barely started this season I know he got the hat-trick against Ipswich Town but in other games I think it's fair to say he's been he's been underwhelming and the team are yet to click into gear and we're all hoping that will come and that the mood lifts because it's been pretty grim you know it's been pretty grim um because I think Michael Carrick knew there'd always be problems and and when I say that I mean periods where the team were not winning matches I think what really stings is that it's come right at the start of the season so you look at the league table and already there's a team 10 points ahead of Manchester United after five games and it's just your dreams being punctured it's very deflating that said don't think anyone thought United would be winning the league this season so it's a sobering realism with the whole thing, whether we're looking at the numbers, the league table, or even the mid-term future.

44:37We have had some positive emails, Laurie, which I can't say. What's this going to be? I can't say we've had much of in recent times. This is Cliff. Am I happy with the recent results? No. Brighton was a hard watch, as at least one part of every game has been so far. But the reality is we're not that bad. Probably at a similar level to Liverpool, who just so happened have started nicking wins. Alan in Cork, really enjoy the podcast. We've so much to complain and worry about regarding United at the moment. Andy, when you're in the cinema, do you pour your share bag of Maltesers into the box of popcorn?

45:10And if not, why not? I really miss Carl, who's become a father and he's made that public because he buys me Maltesers. To cheer you up. He's basically telling us we need to buy him Maltesers, Ian. Yeah, I do. I'm not buying him Maltesers. He's buying bloody self Maltesers. So a couple of years ago, Diego Simeone, Atletico's manager, says he tries to get to cinema once a week, but he finds if he's not into the film, he just gets visions of his players. He can't properly concentrate. After the derby, I went to the cinema in Manchester to watch a film. There was one other person in the cinema, nine o 'clock in the morning, and I'm just trying to watch this film.

45:48It's getting brilliant reviews, brilliant. I've not got my Maltesers because it's nine o 'clock in the morning, and to be eating chocolate that time in the morning is just sick. But I'm just getting flashes still coming across the screen. of what had happened at the weekend. It was after Everton, sorry. It was after Everton. That cold just kept flying in. You need to see Odyssey, Andy. That'll definitely take your mind off United. I did that at 11 o 'clock in the morning with an absolutely ginormous, an Odyssey-sized bag of popcorn. What's it about? Yeah. Not the band from the Aixies. Yeah, brilliant.

46:18I'm not even going to entertain that question. Europe could be good, Ian. It will be good, Andy. We won 5-0. Sorry, 4-0 in the first game. But also, the football is different. And I got some stats in that piece of the other day. Could be a huge Sonic. The Premier League is so strong that Manchester United should perform. Even a subpar Manchester United should be doing well against the opponents we're coming up against, even though on paper an Italian side and a load of Spanish sides look potentially strong. It works in weird ways, football. We do a good cup run as well, aren't we? Yeah, we are.

46:54I reckon we'll just draw Brighton at home in the FA Cup third round well we can't get them in the Champions League can we so that's something the trip should be great I'm looking forward to that after the international break you've got Madrid and then Como back to back weeks brilliant cities both of them fans will lap it up hopefully it'll be a good atmosphere hopefully something to cheer from the stands yeah you don't sound convinced Ian you're sort of silently I'm open minded letting me keep going with that I'm going to have a week off next week, listen to Andy go on about the top 25 Manchester United players all over again and try and forget about the start to this season.

47:33That was a good chat, that. You can't watch the podcast back that we've already recorded. Of course I can, yeah. I'll take my mind off things. He's going to change his order. He's going to decide, actually, no, he was top over him. Yeah. Those 17 players did deserve to share 12th place, yeah. This is getting loose at the end of this show, but we are trying our very best to take your minds off the current situation at Manchester United because it's not been an easy start by any metric, has it? Right, let's leave it there then. I hope you enjoyed that, if that's the right word. I hope you learned something about Manchester United at least and the current situation.

48:08Laurie and Andy, thank you so much for being with us as always. And thank you to Chris as well. You can read all his coverage of Manchester United's finances on The Athletic if you want to know any more. There's lots more detail actually in that piece that we didn't mention in the chat at the top. And remember those three shows coming your way next week. Take your mind off things. Take a trip back in Manchester United's glorious past. The top 25 players, there or thereabouts, you'll understand what I mean by that when you watch the shows, in United's history as picked out by our very own Andy Mitton.

48:40They are quite the journey. Hopefully they are quite the listen and the watch for you as well. But for the moment, thank you for your company as always. and we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.

49:14The Athletic FC.

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