Can Man United kick-start season against Spurs?

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1:25The Athletic FC.

1:43This is Talk to the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, after three weeks away, Manchester United are finally back in action against Spurs on Saturday evening. How refreshed will they be by the three-week break? could Carlos Beléber be finally in line for his debut? We'll talk about that. There's updates on City's charges, on JJ Gabriel and also on the injury situation for Manchester United which could be quite a bit of a concern but we'll talk about that in a bit. Right, Laurie's here in the studio in Manchester with me. Welcome along everyone. Andy's joining from home as well.

2:19Hello Andy. Before we get into it, just a reminder during the break we've done our top 25 shows So the greatest 25 players in Manchester United's history as picked by our very own Andy Mitten. There's three episodes for you to have a look at if you've not seen them already. We've had some lovely feedback to them, so thank you everyone for getting in touch. Kiefer said, just watched the three episodes on The Greatest Players nearly brought me to tears. An incredible list. Alexis, absolutely loving The Greatest Players trilogy. saw yesterday, it was 45 years ago, my hero Brian Robson signed on the pitch for what was about 50 % of United's annual turnover at the time.

2:57He makes the list. He does make the list. You'll have to go and watch it to find out exactly where they were. Right, United back in action, finally. What difference will this break have made? Wow, yeah, big question, because it is a pivotal game ahead, isn't it, against Roberto De Zerbe's Spurs. There's so many different narratives around that. Could have been. United manager had things gone differently when Erickton Haag was under big pressure around the FA Cup final. They need a win as well. We'll preview the game in a bit, but blimey. They've spent so much money and can't really score, it feels like.

3:31Slight issue. Yeah, slight issue. Let's see if United's defence can hold out against them. Hopefully I'm not jinxing it. It's difficult, isn't it? Because you've had such a long international break. We've never had this before. United have had lots of players go off and perform for their countries. it's been a pretty small group at Carrington they have had obviously many training sessions and I think some of the academy players have come across to join in with them they had that game against Luzon Sport as well to obviously give Carlos Balaba his first match shall we say in a United shirt you're sort of thinking okay that could be different Balaba being fit I think that's a big point of reference I think if they'd really wanted to push it they could potentially have played him before the break obviously he was on the bench at Fulham wasn't he But I think then that might have invited Cameroon to call him up and that kind of brings its own complications with trips and different training regimes.

4:22So anyway, keep him in-house. So hopefully he's fit and ready to go to the maximum ability against Spurs. And yeah, a little bit of a break away from that kind of all-consuming focus that you get when you are playing for Manchester United under the cosh to a degree. hopefully that's alleviated some of that and they can go in with a clear mind and perform at their best against Tottenham yeah because the thing is Andy it needs to be different doesn't it five points from five games is nowhere near good enough I know Tottenham are in an even worse position but Manchester United have got to get into a groove and get into it quickly after this big break you've got a really tough run of games all the time throughout October and That's how it's going to be for most of this season now.

5:05And as Laurie said, there's so many different versions of the different narratives around this game. Spurs have started so badly. Roberto De Zerbe, he was offered the Manchester United job, but he wanted so much money that he didn't get the job. And then he went to Marseille, probably on a third of the money he would have got if he would have accepted Manchester United's job. Very highly rated. He's had an appalling start to the season. United need to win. United last year against Tottenham, it was a significant win. It was needed. But the club's record against Tottenham is appalling. One win in nine, including those four defeats in that season when Tottenham were actually even worse than Manchester United in the league.

5:46We're not talking about Bilbao. We've agreed to that. I'm not that bothered about Tottenham. I'm bothered about Manchester United almost resetting after a very underwhelming start to the season. The league table is not lying. It's still very early. You can put a good run together. You can start to move up. the league table. I'm glad that you've discussed injuries. I think United need a bit of a break there. All these players are not going to come in and be starting against Tottenham, but equally, you can't have any of them not coming in. You need some of them to be coming back because they're important players.

6:15And I'm sure we'll talk about individual ones, but Ahmad, Ahmad's got better because he's not been playing. People are like, we just need Ahmad back in the team. And Carlos Baleva is obviously the one who people are excited about because he's a new signing. in it's a huge game and manchester united not winning is not really thinkable about to me it is it is such a massive match you could just say unthinkable to you maybe yeah you know when i was saying that then i just thought i'm just mangling my words here it is it is unthinkable sure manchester united do not win the game we got the message however it came out i was going to save this actually i was going to go through the fixtures but let's go into the individual players because you've both done it a little bit.

6:58So obviously you're tempted to get stuck into this straight away. There's quite a list, actually. We don't know masses of information about the situations for these players. I'm sure they will become clearer before the game against Spurs. Although Michael Carrick hasn't made a habit recently of giving extensive detail on injury issues in his press conferences. This week, it's on Friday. So by all means, keep your eye out. But this is the list. Carlos Balaba, we think he's fit. He's obviously played in the friendly like you mentioned. We'll talk a bit more about him in just a sec, but let me just run through it.

7:30Ahmad, again, is he fit? Not totally sure. He's not played this season in competitive action because of an ankle injury when he missed the whole game. There's Matthias De Ligt, who is working his way back to fitness. How far along in that process he is, we're still not entirely sure. There's Kobi Menu and Marcus Rashford, who both pulled out of international duty with England. There's Benjamin Sesko, who again didn't go on international duty with Slovenia and obviously missed the Fulham game before the break with the recurrence of a shin injury. Patrick Dorg, who's injured his hamstring, it looks like, on international duty with Denmark and came home early.

8:06Noos Mazrawi, also forced off in one of Morocco's games during this break with an injury, also returned to Carrington early. So it's quite a list, that, isn't it? I thought we were trying to get a bit of positivity around the situation. yeah it feels a bit like when Ruben Amarin was manager and they went to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and he had a bench full of academy players right they won't all be out though will they they won't all be out I mean Ahmad's done interviews this week hasn't he so you're sort of thinking okay and the Labour has with him the Labour has with him nice little duo there you're sort of thinking that indicates to me that he might be through it and I think he I agree with Andy that he's got a touch of the Donny van de Bakes about it where he gets better in his absence but a bit more substance to our Manchester United career though yeah a lot more substance and also what he gives the team out of possession aside from his on the ball work is really vital and it's been what I think has been one of the big criticisms of the start of the season so far that energy from the front you know real aggression and just having that sense I suppose he has got a good sense about him when to try and go and steal the ball so yeah if he then is available that does allow Mbumo to go back up top because I just don't think that Cunha as a centre forward works but then And obviously that has been a bit of a circumstance because of Benjamin Sesko's situation.

9:20And that's a real fascinating one. I'm sort of trying to ascertain exactly where we're at with it. It feels a delicate one. Obviously, Slovenia have been quite vocal in some of their stuff previously. But even on this one, I think they're kind of saying, listen, let's leave it between the player and the club. And he obviously had an extended period out over the summer. Wasn't in pre-season because I think he played with this injury, hadn't he, at the end of last season. it got exacerbated in that you know push from Canarte against Liverpool and it was a case of rest it just go and rest it we've qualified for the Champions League now because that was a big pressure I think you know can keep playing through this and so I think they felt that it was in the right place for him to come back and he spoke to us after the Sabah game and he said he felt ready to go and I think he's the kind of player that wants to be playing all the time that will probably say I'm fit when maybe you know he's not necessarily fully there because he wants to be out on the pitch but clearly there's been a recurrence and so I would imagine that they're going to be really sensitive around it and kind of cautious around it because of it already happening once so yeah would he be fit for Tottenham it would be surprising to me at this stage now but let's see so that then obviously has meant that Cunha has played up top more but if Mbouma can play there it feels more natural that to me.

10:33A bit more like what the shape was when Carrick first took charge and obviously you know turbo boosted the start to his Manchester United managerial stint this time around. Hopefully something like that can do the same this time. Let's talk a bit more about Belaber then. Obviously we've waited quite a while already to see him in a Manchester United shirt. He's not played a competitive game in nearly five months. It was the game actually against Manchester United right at the very end of last season for Brighton. The last time that he played, he was an unused sub like Larry mentioned before, before the break.

11:03What difference can he make, Andy? Because I think we also need to be maybe a little bit careful quite how much we put on this young lad's shoulders, don't we? Yeah, but I think it's inevitable because someone who Manchester United have liked for a long time and also because of the performances of the midfielders who've come in this summer. Andre Santos, we've not seen a lot of. Juri Tielemans, they've been so-so. The team has not been winning. The midfielders looked like an area of concern. Bruno Fernandes is not hitting the notes apart from in that Ipswich game as he did last year. And then we're still trying to come to terms with how much of an absence is Casemiro.

11:44At the moment, it looks like a very real absence. But Labour's a completely different player. He's high energy. He's box to box. He looks exactly what Manchester United need. And because he's a new signing, because he's played for a Brighton team who always beat Manchester United, apart from last year in May when he got injured, there are high hopes for him. But they can be dashed pretty quickly. You know, he's going to get a lot of chances in October because there's a lot of matches. And if he starts looking the part straight away, it'll give everybody the lift that he needs. His age profile is fantastic and I'm pretty optimistic, but I tend to be about most new signings because you want them to succeed.

12:25Your way of thinking is like, go on, lad, get behind him. And United fans will absolutely get behind him. The Stretford, and mark my words, following what's happened with City, will be up for it. against Tottenham on Saturday. There will be a proper good atmosphere there. Belaber's coming on and maybe we'll see one or two of the other players. I think it's about getting more and not less of the injured players back. Like Laurie, I'd be surprised if Cesco started the game. That also worries me, Cesco, because he's such an important player for Manchester United and he's actually played very little football in the last five or six months.

13:04and he did speak to us and he spoke to us well after the Sabah game. And you're thinking, okay, he's back now. He's going to get up to gear and he's talking about the improvements he's going to make and what he needs to do and where he needs to improve. And you're like, bring it on. And then when there's a setback, well, it's exactly that. It's a setback. So Belaber will get a really, really good reception and fans are going to sit back and go, bring it on. Let's see what you're about. Yeah, the thing with Belaber, speaking to people who work with him at Brighton, Even a couple of people who've been around the interviews with him this week, very shy, young in age and also the way he comes across.

13:41There's definitely a player in there. We've seen that hugely across his time in the Premier League with Brighton. But the joint interviews he did with Ahmad, Ahmad was doing a lot of the talking. Obviously, he's the senior one of the two. Ahmad was doing the talking. Yeah, even though he's a bit young. Yeah, but that's coming with Ahmad. That sort of seniority at a young age, that progression from a player on the outside of it to someone more at the core of what Manchester United's team is about at the moment. It's coming with him. And he's obviously taking Carlos under his wing in those interviews, I'm sure, which is quite a statement to say for Amar because he's not really been that sort of character across the last few years.

14:23I just hope Baleva's ready for this because we need him. The team needs him. he needs to be almost the injection into this season to really kick start things and like I say he's not kicked up all for five months yeah yeah when you put it like that competitively that's a lot to ask of somebody isn't it he had a bit of pre-season didn't he be brighton before getting that ankle injury um but I agree he's a different profile isn't he to Tielemans and Santos clearly so that's what I think people are getting excited is maybe it's a profile we He's actually wanted and needed fully, isn't he? It's covering ground.

15:00It's getting in amongst it. It's breaking up play. It's progressive passing, though. He does have that on him. We've seen that at Old Trafford for one of the goals. Was it Minty that scored that goal when he put that pass through for Mitoma? He scored so many. It's hard to keep up. As long as United aren't facing Pascal Gross this weekend, I'm all right. So I think that he is somebody that will change what's possible for United. and it'd be fascinating to see how he does against Sandra Tonali, against Mateus Fernandes, two players that United were obviously interested in, certainly with Fernandes.

15:33They went quite a long way with trying to get that one done. So I think to sort of double down on Andy's point, it'll enhance even further that sense of optimism if he's able to sort of show his credentials against those two in particular, let alone anybody that he might have been facing. So, yeah, but again, it is, as you say there, it's a long time that he's been out. And obviously last season for Brighton, it wasn't his best. He had two really good seasons and then United's approach clearly had an impact on what he was able to do. I think there was a couple of injuries as well last season. But when he did come back into the team at the end of the last season, he did well.

16:07You know, that Chelsea game was really encouraging from a United point of view when they were thinking, OK, United are looking at him as a potential signing. He was aggressive, high up, winning the ball, making an impact. And so if that can blend nicely with Kobe Maynou, I suppose he's going to stick with Telemans and Maynou. That makes sense, right? Can he start Balaba? He can't start Balaba, can he? Can he? That's the question. It'd be ripping the plaster off, wouldn't it, straight away? Here you go. Carrick hasn't necessarily been that kind of manager so far. So my instinct would be that he is more, not cautious, but kind of giving faith to those players that have performed for him already.

16:50And also when you're coming back from an international break, I think you need to start with at least a group of players that have a good understanding of each other or a better understanding of how each other play, move, when to pass, when to not. so I would imagine that he goes with what he has selected before but clearly believe there's a really promising player to have as an option. Yeah I've heard managers say before now that this is the most difficult fixture the one after the international break because players have been away in lots of different environments had lots of different tactical instruction to take on board and then all of a sudden with only a few days you've got to reprogram them back into what Manchester United need and what the team needs for this particular game So it's definitely a challenge.

17:33It'll only really be probably today, actually, Thursday, where everyone's back together properly and the focus switches fully back to Manchester United and the Spurs game at the weekend. Andy, let's talk about some of the other players that are listed before them. Matthias De Ligt, obviously very, very long-term absentee. There's been some updates around his recovery and his return to first-team action, but he hasn't played since last November because of the back problem. Some speculation, I don't even know how to describe it, some reports that he had been involved in this behind-closed-doors game.

18:08Now, on the pictures on United's website, there was no sign of him. That doesn't mean that he didn't play, but they're clearly being very careful with him. So, do you expect him to be in contention for Spurs, or not quite yet? I asked Michael Carrick direct at the start of the season, and I understand why they didn't want to put any type of fixed state onto it. but what he did say was after the first international break given the nature of the of the injury United have been very very careful and I understand that that last time he played was Palace last November and up to that point I think he was Manchester United's best defender at the start of last season and it's now 10 going into 11 months since he played he earns a lot of money he's one of Manchester United's best paid players and he's been missed especially given the number of goals and the type of goals that Manchester United have been conceding so far.

19:02So I would say he's on his way back. I cannot say for certain whether he's going to be starting or whether he's going to be featuring. Maybe Michael Carrick will give some clarity for this. I think we're getting close. We've been seeing him training on the grass. And I also think Michael Carrick doesn't need to give away too much information because Roberto De Zerbi, who's even more desperate for a win, he'll be wanting to know as much as possible about Manchester United. With that to be patient, I think fans have been patient. I think we're getting close to it, but it's really hard for me to say if it's going to be one week or a couple of weeks.

19:37We need him back now. Just look at the games, look at the number of the games. We always said when Harry Maguire signed, he's not someone who can be playing two games a week every single week. Well, now is when this happens. It's been a relatively easy start to the season, he says, having seen terrible results. But now it happens. It's a game twice a week, midweek, and there's a lot of travel involved with the European stuff as well. We've got two European away games this month. Yeah, there's eight games in 29 days between the Spurs game this weekend and then the next international break. And on paper, at least, they certainly look like much tougher fixtures.

20:11So Tottenham at home to kick it off. Atletico away, Leeds United away, Comer away, Bournemouth at home, Chelsea away, Roma at home, Aston Villa at home. And then you're into the nice, easy Christmas fixtures. Don't worry about that. We'll talk about that after the next international break because, yeah, they're interesting as well, aren't they?

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22:16In some ways though, I've said this before, I wonder if the tougher games bring more out of this team because that's what seemed to bring the best out of them last season was the big occasions and the tricky games. The one thing they do need is some of these players available because they can't be going into that run with seven or eight missing. So do we know any more about Dorghu, Masraoui, Manu, Rashford, whether any of those four are around it? Well, Manu and Rashford, I think, was... They pulled out of international duty, Larry. What are you smiling at? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, I think there's certain choices that are made that are for the benefit of Manchester United.

22:55Whatever was going on, fitness-wise, I don't think there would be doubts for the Spurs game. I could be wrong. but yeah there's certainly different choices that are made by players that you know listen it happened all the time didn't it under Sir Alex Ferguson with you know international duty not necessarily being the top ranking priority for certain players. I don't know what you mean. So Dorgou's a kind of more concerning one isn't it because 30 minutes into the game he went off hamstring it looked like yeah I've asked a question on that let's see if I can get anything back by the time this podcast ends but yeah I mean I guess he would just provide that alternative so he probably wouldn't have started either way would he I don't think Doggo unless Carrick decided to go for a similar kind of setup that he did against Man City when Doggo I think played pretty well in that game so you know when he first um not the one this season the one last season um yeah but it's a kind of I mean you're just thinking as a manager please just all come back I think at least Bruno Fernandes Whereas with Portugal, it looked like he's had a bit more of an enjoyable time.

24:01He missed the game, didn't he? I know, but... And then there was some talk that he'd been injured for about four games before the break. Yeah. I didn't know about it. Yeah. I mean, Bruno's a funny one though, isn't he? Because he's like, it feels like he's probably always carrying something. Yeah. Well, also, was carrying a knot, but still played 90 minutes against Sabah. So it can't have been that bad. Exactly. Well, that was then sort of seen as a kind of question for Carrick, wasn't it? Why did he play? And you could probably ask him that anyway, right? Regardless of whether he was carrying an injury or not.

24:25but I think Bruno is that kind of player that is able to go through those kind of moments. And my sense of him during this international break was that he'd had a positive one overall, aside from the skipping of a game. Maybe that's good for him, a United's point of view, a bit more not playing every single minute. Yeah, true, true. And he's capped in Portugal in the absence of Cristiano Ronaldo. I don't know why he wasn't part of Portugal's plans during this break. I've not read anything about that. So if you know, do let us know in the comments. Andy in terms of this run then and and what they've got to come this is what it's all about isn't it this is this is what we you mentioned it a moment ago this is what we talked about when we said this season will be different because that is a pretty intimidating run on paper at very least it's a very difficult run but it's also what we live for people are excited because they've got trips to Madrid or to Como this month when you dig a little bit deeper you realize that Atletico Madrid are exceptionally good at home and actually Como doing really well under Cesc Fabregas and we'll discuss that in more detail in forthcoming podcasts and then you've got Leeds away you know always a quiet one isn't it they're doing really well sick of seeing Bournemouth at Old Trafford especially then it's Chelsea away then it's Roma at home then it's Villa Rome really really tough and if United don't get it right those fixtures could eat Manchester United up we've seen past Octobers.

25:51I know Morrissey sang November Spawned a Monster. It's tended to be October for Manchester United when things have gone badly wrong and I hope they don't and I think Michael Carriac just needs to get back. From his perspective he's always said that there was always going to be a blip and there might be more blips this season. I think the unfortunate thing is it's come right at the start of the season. That whole result was a stinker. That Brighton result was an absolute stinker and he's got good players there and he needs more of them back to be going into that that run of matches because they are they are so unforgiving and not every player is going to be back after the internationals there's going to be a couple missing but we just need to get the majority there so we're not scraping around and the injury list starts to to really add up and adversely affect manchester united a lot of travel a lot of games i'd like to say bring it on but i'm also a bit nervous because of what I've seen so far with Manchester United but that's just a men's team we should mention a women's team they've had a couple of good wins you know beat the Scousers on at the weekend but yeah it's it's a tough tough time now well yeah either all its team are actually a good example for the men's side of how they can turn things around because the first two games of the season were hugely disappointing and it has changed since we'll get into them on a podcast soon because it is an interesting development how things are beginning to turn around just in terms of Carrick then, what does he need to change?

27:12What needs to be tweaked? What can be tweaked? That is the debate, isn't it? Because it's felt like the energy, the aggression of United needs to up. But then, two things. Is that actually the style of play that he wants? He's kind of given that indication, hasn't he? When in Dublin, I asked him, or the outskirts of Dublin at their team hotel, asked about that in pre-season and he basically said, as a midfielder myself, you see things perhaps a different way than other people might have done and so you know retaining the ball through possession you're not going to run as much as opponents but obviously then the second point is could they even if they wanted to even if that's what he was demanding of his players and I think the profile they've got that has been available to him is again not really so you know I think it's understandable and obviously Belaber maybe changes the dynamic there on that But it's been fascinating thinking about how United teams have typically done better on counterattacks, really.

28:11And so we had this with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, tried to change things to then become more of a progressive team, high press, and go it that way. It didn't quite work for different reasons, perhaps one being the individual you mentioned earlier who was out of the team. So Bruno Fernandes was the captain coming into the picture. but even beyond that Everton Arrg tried to change it and ultimately kind of reverted showed a bit of pragmatism in his style of play because of the players that he had available to him so Carrick's obviously at this point I mean it feels crazy because he was interim manager for you know half a season did incredibly well the results were fantastic with a certain was there a style of play it was more how can we win each game I would say but probably relying on those counter-attacking moments those transition moments which are thrilling which I think United should absolutely have as part of their approach to games.

29:02It's just how do you generate them yourselves or how do you at least see the opportunities and take advantage of them? But to even sort of be thinking right now, how can we progress it already when he's only had three new signings, only one of which has actually been playing because Andre Santos is barely featured and obviously Belaber's been injured, is kind of wild really when you think about it. So yeah, he's obviously, he has become already the focus of conversation because it feels like, and you had the same thing with Solskjaer, where coming in as an interim, there's always that. You have to kind of overachieve to maintain a level that other head coaches, managers would be afforded because of their CVs, I suppose.

29:45So for him, I think he probably needs a really good performance and result against Tottenham, and that can just all go to the side, go to the periphery, any kind of suggestion around his position. but I think there needs to be a strong start to the game really. I think there needs to be that aggression off the ball really. I know that maybe the players aren't necessarily that way inclined, that physically adept but we saw it against Brighton. It can happen in bursts. I'm not saying you have to continue it for the whole game, pick your moments but certainly start strongly I think. Yeah, I think they have to use this break as a restart almost like the season starts again now because it was so much of a false start in so many ways.

30:26the results and some of the natures and details of the performance that it just has to be so much better and all the conversation about the start about the questions over Carrick and everything else that was simmering away after that Fulham game it has been forgotten a little bit lots has happened across this international break and United have to be able to use that to their advantage no question at all I mean we're having running stats thrown at us weren't we and we were analysing them and they didn't make brilliant reading, let's be honest, for Manchester United before the break. Now Chris McKenna's done an article, Andy, on the Athletic looking at the tactical challenge really of the next six fixtures.

31:03Go and have a look at it if you want to know more about it. But in it he's picked out some bits of data from Opta that maybe does give a little bit more cause for optimism than some of the running stuff. And I think you picked up on this, Andy, actually at the time. But anyway, they've had more touches in the opposition box than any other Premier League team this season, 182. Their opponents have had the fewest touches inside their own penalty area, 92. United have registered the most shots, 113, and only Brighton, Brighton, on 5.8 compared to United's 5.6, have got more shots on target per game.

31:40Expected points also paint a different picture. If games were decided on expected goals and the expected goal difference, United will be fourth with nine points rather than 12th with five. So there is some reason for optimism in the underlying data, despite it feeling so underwhelming at the start, maybe. Yeah, I did mention it a few weeks ago, but as Chris mentioned in his very good article, it's the league table which decides this. United need to score goals, need to stop it in the post, stop it in the crossbar. I think Laurie's use of the word bursts is really important here. In every game, we've seen fragments of how good Manchester United can look.

32:19Equally, we've been alarmed as opposing teams have cut through Manchester United, either down the middle or down one of the wings and scored. That Brighton game was a horror watch, even when Manchester United were leading. And some of those underlying stats, I went through them with someone who works with stats, who's at a very, very high level in football. And that was a basis for an article I did just before that Fulham game. but it just gets forgotten about if you don't win the match it would have been even worse if Kunja had not got that late goal at Craven Cottage I mean I walked out the ground there and the mood was not a happy one among Manchester United fans but it wasn't the fury that it would have been if he hadn't scored that goal that's how delicately balanced it is at the moment he needs wins over everything and it's all right having more touches in the box and more of this more of that and sometimes that's they're quite interesting that the running one was used to beat Manchester United and a couple of people who know what they're on about said to me this this is nonsense they shouldn't be using this against Manchester United but people will use it against Manchester United when the team aren't winning because they're looking for reasons why the team are not winning and then I think you look at individually someone like Marcus Rashford I'm amazed at the reaction when he plays clearly a lot of United fans are just not having him I don't think he's been that bad this season and just saying that gets you a load of abuse whatever what he needs is a goal or he needs an assist and there's been moments where he's looked he looked really bright but he needs a goal and he needs an assist and we need to sort out the centre forward because as Laurie touched on earlier on it can be a pretty awkward watch seeing Matthias Cuny there, Brian and Bumo.

33:59They need to click, they need to find the groove, they need to go beyond stats, they need wins because one win in five games isn't good enough and the pressure will build but a win can really help and United can move up that table really quickly and other teams have lost matches as well and other teams have had poor starts to the season and other news events have overtaken Manchester United being so poor so for four or five days after the Fulham game it was all about Manchester United and then bang Manchester City and that's dominated the news cycle since then. It needs to get back to being Manchester United winning games under Michael Carrick because if you think the Tottenham game is a tough one and a big one.

34:38Wait till you see what's coming next. Atletico are exceptionally good at home, but we can forget about that until the podcast we do after the Tottenham game. Thank you, Andy. I mean, it is United's joint worst start to a Premier League season, so if you need data or stats to tell you why you're feeling the way you're feeling, it's the lowest points total joint with 2014-2015 that United have ever had in a Premier League campaign, obviously going back to 1992. Lots of great writing on The Athletic during this break, as always, on Manchester City, like Andy mentioned before. But also there's Chris's article.

35:12You can go and have a look at that. Also, Keres has written about Michael Carrick and his substitutions and how late they've been and done some analysis of that. There's some interesting information in there. But basically, to try and round up the best of what we've had on The Athletic app during this break, we're going to do some quick-fire questions. Now, you know the podcast. We don't really do quick-fire questions because even the quick ones ended up being a little bit less quick and a bit more detailed and slow. There's always lots of information to bring you, but we're going to try our very best across these next four questions to just hit you hard with some information.

35:45So, right, first up, Andy, you're first. Leni Jorow, was he the biggest winner of the international break, making his France senior debut in the win over Belgium and playing pretty well? Yes, yes, yes, playing under Zidane. I spoke yesterday at length for the Athletic to Rudy Garcia, who was Belgium's manager. So obviously he was telling me about Uri Tielemans and Senna Lamans, but also a little bit about Lenny Oro because he's from the same part of the world as he's from. Huge potential, Lenny, but now he's in his third season at Manchester United. He really should be pushing towards cementing a first place start, being a starting regular, as he was at the start of last season.

36:23He's got to cut out the mistakes, he's got to cut out the positioning errors. We're a little bit alarmed by what we've seen of him playing in some matches, most recently in that Brighton game, but a big potential. You've just got to solidify it and become the player that we know you can be. Doing that for your country, one of the best countries in the world, will absolutely help him. In a word, is it time to start him for United? I think at some point he's got to start playing again. That's more than a word. I think, in a word, no. Okay, thank you. I actually thought his answer to your first question was just going to be yes.

36:57Yeah. And I do want to know what Rudy Garcia said, but maybe that's for the athletic later Andy okay sounds good yeah Laurie what does it mean for United now that JJ Gabriel has turned 16 probably not loads different than what it did prior to this point because he put in that letter of deregistration request United aren't going to grant that but basically that is the plan from his perspective it feels like now that that's you know let the cat out of the bag um but the fact that he's turned 16 does change a little bit of what's available to him as a player because it's my understanding that you know if he has a eu passport which i now believe he does have uh he's able to move to a european club um if i think this is right that their move is not for football reasons so if there's other reasons why you know family might move um because there's some debate around whether united could actually still maintain his registration up until next summer when his contract ends um but i do believe there's a an out there now that he's 16 you know being homeschooled not necessarily having that same relationship that other players might have in terms of United's academy so yeah it's fascinating now that he's turned 16 I think he's over in Spain training still and yeah Real Madrid are a team that are certainly looking at him I think there's several clubs that are looking at him but but Real Madrid I think is one of those clubs that you know from what I can tell from colleagues as well um have got him in his sights made the squad photo didn't he yeah that was really interesting that wasn't it yeah sure i should have touched on that because i suppose it was a i don't know an awkward one from united's point of view given what then happened afterwards clearly the squad photo was taken before he put in that request he was at carrington yes i presume yes exactly so and then they've released it at this point before his 16th birthday and we've also seen haven't we some sort of reports this week about some of the requests that were being made before they then entertained conversations around having a first scholarship contract, which would have come at 16, which would have been now.

38:59And then within that, usually for the top, top players, they put a pre-pro contract in and that basically then would tie him perhaps to the club for three years when he turned 17. So yeah, that was one strand. Clearly United weren't comfortable with what they believe were being requests of them. clearly from JJ Gabriel's side there was some uh I guess dissatisfaction at United's uh approach so yeah we're at this point now and let's see where it comes because it is I think it's gonna be a fascinating story as we go on okay uh Andy what did we learn from United Stadium consultations with local residents I think there were four consultations public ones I went to two of them I went to one in Gorshill in Stratford there were a lot of people there and I went to another one at Media City in Salford Quays.

39:47There was hardly anyone there. You just had a pick of experts who you could speak to. Ah, you're Mr. Transport, you're Mr. Planning, you're Mr. Housing. It sounds like your absolute dream, Andy. It's a bizarre Mr. Men series, isn't it? It's fantastic. And there were lots of, I'm about to say, Mrs. as well, who were experts within their field. So for me, it was just about learning really nerdy stuff about possible train stations, but also getting a flavour of what the residents were asking. That varied from big Manchester United fans who absolutely welcome a new stadium to local residents who absolutely don't or are circumspect.

40:25And, you know, what's in it for us? Manchester United being our neighbour is a problem. It's not a good thing. You know, they nick our car parking spaces. They litter. Fans urinate in the street. So just to listen to what the issues are and then to see the plans there. this is the area around the stadium this is the area which manchester united don't really control this is trafford borough council who call it trafford wharfside the area where there would be a huge new predominantly residential area with denser housing towards manchester city center and manchester's central core is spreading towards old trafford along the manchester ship canal along the bridgewater canal and there would probably be a continuation of that yes we don't know when it's going to all happen we don't know how it's going to be funded yet so these are plans these are early stage computer generated idealized images of oh isn't that park lovely i sort of looked into it deeper and thought where are people going to park the car but actually there's hardly any car park in there which might be a good thing because people have got to use more public transport or car parks might be underground and then i'm looking at what happens to the existing old Trafford and it looks like and this is still yet to be absolutely decided that it's framed by a residential area but it's still marked in some way so very very early it feels like we're at the start of a very long race but the direction of travel is definitely towards a huge redevelopment of Trafford Wharfside with a new Manchester United Stadium as the the anchor tenant the focus of it but as I've mentioned in articles fans are still very divided on this fans don't feel like they've been offered the option of redeveloping Old Trafford the club have done their own consultations with one of the universities in Manchester and their own surveys and those results stand up to independent scrutiny but if you do fan surveys they give you very different results of what Manchester United fans want and explain why people might be feeling about that it's probably better to read the article.

42:36Yeah, fair enough. We're doing our best to get these in quick, aren't we? But they're difficult. This one's going to be even more difficult, I think. Now, we've done a full podcast on Manchester United's reaction. I don't know if that's the right word to use, but what impact Manchester City's charges and the guilty verdict will have on Manchester United. You've written a piece on it since. So is there any more detail you can bring us of how you think United could react to this verdict? I think probably just the one element of it that I hadn't perhaps fully appreciated at the time of recording the podcast is just how strongly United were lobbying the Premier League to take action against City when it was the Glazers as pretty much sole owners before Sir Jim Ratcliffe's investment.

43:22and you know so that then it all happens doesn't it they get charged in february 2023 there's an investment from ratcliffe in the club later that year and then we come around to 2024 when united or one of these four clubs that have lodged their right to seek damages against city uh whatever happens because it's kind of time barred um six years is the you know usual uh sort of um the cut-off point on that uh bringing the course of action like so what what what element what what was the catalyst for you know this this uh this sort of suit to be taken now some lawyers that have spoken to say that actually the guilty verdict could have been the starting pistol on that because you didn't know for sure that city were guilty until that moment so it's like an insurance insurance policy to be able to ensure that if you give them notice yeah at that point everything you're locked in and it's consideration yeah it's less complicated i think so so that's one element but since Ratcliffe's come in he's been more sympathetic to City you know uh I think he's on record isn't he saying that he doesn't want to sort of beat them in the courtroom he'd rather smash them on the pitch and that does that's that's a kind of mood around United so it's an interesting shift and then it'll just be fascinating for me to see the Glazers will have a certain view because you know for years they were saying is that all correct City's commercial revenue that they're reporting because investors were asking questions around why aren't United producing those kind of numbers.

44:42So they can probably say, well, we were justified. Luckily, we've got validation here that actually our work wasn't as terrible as it looked in comparison to City. There's so many different assets. So many different assets. I mean, the other thing is, can't Radcliffe beat them on the pitch and in the courtroom? You'd like to think so. I mean, it'd be really interesting what City do now. Can't that be the target? Yeah, well, will City keep spending it the way they've been spending? How does that impact things? Obviously, what will the repercussions be? Will there be points deductions? Will they get relegated?

45:09and then are United in a position to take advantage of that? I mean, it feels to me like, you know, this kind of aspect around the titles and being stripped and given to United, I don't think that has loads of possibility. But, I mean, I don't know, Andy, you tell me, like you're talking about flags that are going to go up at Old Trafford, maybe, in the atmosphere. Are they going to get that countdown clock back up? Are they going to sort of start singing about 23 titles, you know, 22? I don't know. What's the number that United would perhaps, even in jest, just start talking about? The Stretford end will reflect the strength of feeling against Manchester City's charges.

45:41But then it did in the derby anyway. The All of Old Trafford was singing, wasn't it? Someone should do like a fanzine cover on it or something, Andy. I don't know if you know anyone, do you? Yeah, I could do a fanzine cover. That'll sell well. Yeah. Well, if it doesn't rain, let's just see. People feel really angry about this and feel really strongly about this. And I know Manchester City fans do as well. And it's all going to play out, isn't it? It'll be interesting to see how it affects Manchester United. It'll be interesting to see how it affects the entire league, actually, once the football starts again.

46:12Huge modifications. Anfield will definitely be a game to keep an eye on between Liverpool and Manchester City. In fact, what you just said there, Kevin got in touch and said, special thank you for Andy's angry and sad, dejected response at the top of Friday's show about the Manchester City charges. Absolutely spot on. Quite a few people got in touch to say that was how they were feeling, Andy. So, you know, they were pleased to hear what you had to say because it resonated with them. A reminder as well, it was an episode last week that we did on Manchester City's charges. So go back and have a look at that if you've missed it during the international break.

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48:32Right, let's jump back into this Tottenham game just to finish off then because Spurs has not been a particularly enjoyable fixture across the last few years. There's a B word which Andy always tells us we can't mention when mentioning it almost every single podcast. I'm not going to mention it again but that Bilbao game. Yeah. I mean the most dejected podcast I think we've ever recorded. Talk about sad and dejected. There's been quite a few dejected ones down the years but my goodness me that effing leaf blower as well. Still rings in my ears in the dead of night at times. How is the counselling going for that, Ian?

49:08Yeah, we're getting there. But just looking at the results, obviously last season it was one of the early wins for Carrick, Spurs at home at Old Trafford. But before that, their record, the head-to-head run, they hadn't beaten them for what? It'd be about three years now, basically. And they're mostly defeats. There's two draws in there. there's obviously defeat in the League Cup as well as the Europa League but it doesn't make great reading no there was that draw wasn't there at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium when Dillard was playing and he got that 2-2 last minute equaliser when United were winning for quite a long time so the other way of looking at it they were unbeaten against Spurs last season there you go good point good point although didn't Romero get sent off in the home game yeah yeah so you know United well that was a game that United did beat 10 men so it can happen Yeah, that's normally a negative, actually, when the opposition get a team player, sorry, sent off.

50:03Yeah, I think it's fascinating. I mean, that whole Deserby element, you know, he's obviously come in, you know, he did save them, I guess, in the last season. But, you know, to touch on Andy's point, I think he's on a good salary, a very good salary. So there's pressure there to make this work. I think that's also why they went so big in the transfer market. You know, let's really back this guy that, let's take a different approach than the one we've done previously. because some people said to me in the window that United's approach was kind of more similar to what Spurs have done previously, where they have sort of tried to go for the top, top talents, not been able to get them, so kind of gone a rung below, and it hadn't ever really worked for Spurs, had it, that?

50:44Now, that might be unfair. Let's see how this season goes for United. Gone pretty big on the rung below, by the way. Spurs? Yeah. No, I mean, previously, historically. Right. So this season, they've actually tried, really, to go for their top targets. I'm with you, sorry. Yeah, whereas United's approach, this window, was more of Tottenham of old, according to people that are in the industry and talk to me about these kind of things. So they would say that, you know, they haven't really pushed the boat out. And you can say they haven't, they've been sensible. But I mean, we've talked about this on a previous podcast, haven't we, where you look at the finances, I don't think they really could have, they theoretically could have, but then it would have been more debt.

51:17Extending credit. Pay it back at some point. Exactly. So do you really want to go down that route again? So, but it does then mean, okay, let's see. I think that's why you've got this really interesting tension around it two managers that are obviously different kinds of coaches but equally clearly very educated and knowledgeable about the game Karik as a player and deserving more so as you know perhaps a bit of an outsider this is probably his definitely his biggest job isn't it I mean I know Shakhtar Donetsk was a pretty big job in the Champions League but this the focus of it the kind of expectation around it certainly after their transfer spend and it's been so bad so far from Tottenham that I don't know I just hope that United can take advantage of that and it isn't then Tottenham finally coming to the party I'm sure that Carrick's got a game plan for them.

52:01Yeah two points from five games in the Premier League so far this season Andy and if you look at the the Premier League table basically since the 1st of January 2025 there was no team in that list below Spurs who had been ever present during that spell they've been either promoted or relegated during that period in fact the closest team to them who'd been around that entire time with Nottingham Forest who'd taken 20 points more than Spurs in fact Sunderland were even above them in the table and they played 19 fewer matches it it's been a while that Tottenham Hotspur haven't been at the level we don't want this to be the weekend that Spurs come back to the party do we?

52:40No we don't Tottenham have yet to score an away game look they've been absolutely terrible consecutive 17th place finishes they look like they were going down last season until De Zerbe got them to win three or four matches towards the end of the season. They should be going down. This is Tottenham, who are one of the best finance clubs in world football, finishing 17th. I suppose that's why it makes the Premier League so engaging. And then last season, they got into the Champions League. I'm not sure how they got into it. And they went out in that round of 16 against Atletico Madrid. Stopped mentioning Atletico Madrid, Andy.

53:16Laurie mentioned Romero Kuti Romero they call him he's obviously now gone he had a big history in Manchester United he's now playing for Atletico Madrid stop mentioning Atletico Madrid so massive game massive game I'm a bit nervous only because of how poor Manchester United have been and the idea of Tottenham scoring that's just going to lift them they've also needed to do a reset De Zerbe is under massive pressure he actually tries to play quite a similar style of football to Michael Carrick that possession-based attack in football. For all the faults, they have had a lot of possession. Something is going to have to give here between those two teams.

53:54Just give me a repeat of last season, please. At Old Trafford, a nice 2-0 win on February 7th of last season. Let's make that the start of a winning run between Manchester United and Tottenham. Yes, I'm nervous. Yes, I've been nervous going into every game this season, including the Ipswich match, which probably shows how I feel about Manchester United right now. Let's hope that feeling changes starting with Spurs at the weekend. Let's leave it there then for Talk the Devils for today. Thank you so much for your company, listening and watching along. Andy, thank you at home. Laurie, thank you for joining us here in the studio.

54:24We'll be back after the Spurs game. That fella over there is going to be in the host seat because I'm away this weekend. So please be kind with him. It's going to be chaos. Let's hope you've got something good to reflect on in that podcast. And we'll speak to you soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

55:03The Athletic FC.

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