Can Man United's players do more?

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1:40The Athletic FC.

1:57This is Talk of the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, it was a point in the end at Fulham, but how much has it done to, well, stifle concerns, I suppose, heading into this international break? We'll get into the details of the draw at Craven Cottage, of course. Also, sort of discuss and reflect on the wider mood around Manchester United at the moment. We've had tons of emails, tons of messages, so we'll do our best to get into those as well. Andy and Kerris are here, so good morning to both of you. Andy, I think the simple question is, how are you feeling?

2:28I feel pretty deflated, Ian. I was at Craven Cottage yesterday. I'm pretty tired as well because I didn't get home until two o 'clock in the morning. I felt it was a must-win for Manchester United. Fulham fans will say the same, but Manchester United didn't win the game. And when I watched it, I kept seeing repeat patterns from what I've seen in almost every Manchester United game so far this season. Lack of control, moments of really exciting football. Obviously, the team at the Woodwork, that's happening all the time now as well. But Fulham have had a really bad start to the season. Manchester United have had a bad start and United needed to win that.

3:05And I left that ground yesterday thinking it's going to be a long three weeks now. Beautiful walk back to Hammersmith tube station where I had a really tight connection to make. And the tube was down. And I'm thinking, all right, it's one of them days, is it? This is what it's like for Manchester United at the moment. And we'll get into the details and who said what. But my feeling in answer to your question is one of disappointment and deflation. Yeah, I mean, it was a disappointing and deflating game all around Keris, really. It could have been a lot worse had it been a defeat. But then in some ways, I don't think that the goal from Matthias Cunha rescuing a point actually changes much about the way people feel.

3:46Maybe it's given everyone a little bit more breathing space, but the harsh reality, it's the lowest points total United have ever had in a Premier League season at this point. It equals 20-14-15. and it's just left so many questions about the way this season started hasn't it yeah I think the questions sort of continue to be quite similar really I thought a draw probably was roughly a fair result but not one of you know there's draws that you come away from feeling like defeats Everton was definitely one of those this this is to a to I would say a lesser extent because it felt throughout like United would struggle to get the three points from it.

4:28I thought there's an element of fortune in the way that Kunia's shot deflects, but there was also times United hit the woodwork. They created enough to score, but they didn't capitalise enough to win. And that's a problem that we continue to see. I think United are creating chances, but they're doing it in kind of flurries and in bursts. They're not doing it consistently throughout a game. They're not keeping teams on the back foot. They're allowing teams into games. And that's why we keep seeing these really disappointing results. There's patches, but when the patches of United being in control or being on the front foot are not productive, then you come away with a whole picture overall that is negative.

5:13And that's unfortunately the state we're going into a three-week break-in, which is the situation that nobody wanted to be in. And I think that after the defeat in the derby and after going out of the cup, this result, even if United had won, perhaps wouldn't have fixed wider concerns, but it would have at least stopped the momentum being on such a, what feels like a downward slide, which is what it is at the moment. Yeah, the impending doom loop is how I heard several people refer to it over the weekend. I think you wrote something similar in your article about the mood, Andy, heading into the weekend.

5:45I mean, there's so many different aspects to this conversation, but the sort of fundamental question I keep coming back to is how has the team gone from pretty much title-winning form under Michael Carrick at the end of last season, 12 wins from 17 games, to this, the joint worst start to a league season in the Premier League era? Someone said to me at Fulham yesterday, winning by the fine margins last season and losing by them this season. Like United were getting wins last year where a fairer result might have been a draw. we didn't focus on on that because we were buzzing because manchester united were picking up wins and moving up the table and finishing third and getting into the champions league and then the opposite is true um this this year i think you had bruno fernandez in really good form last season and we've yet to see that so far this season and given he's the best player that is a big factor.

6:44Luke Shaw's been injured for a few matches and if you like him or not I think Manchester United are better for him with the team. I think having an obvious centre-forward is a factor as well. Benjamin Sesko had a good second half to last season started scoring not going to say he was prolific but he was doing well he was scoring goals and he's been getting in and then he missed a game at Fulham because of injury. There's the intangibles like confidence. I mean, Matthias Cunha spoke after the game and he gives off the impression that we just need to click and find the groove. And I think you get a lot of that from within the camp that not that much has actually changed, but then they probably want to believe that as well.

7:31And I speak to lots of people in and around Manchester United. I've not had anyone saying to me um the players are not having a manager it's falling apart you know stuff that you're really negative stuff that you might have heard in the past we've heard it several times in the past we have so yeah so it's it's then baffling to me because you go into games and you're optimistic you know i stood outside craven cottage yesterday selling united we stand with barney from red news and the mood was good was positive maybe that's because people do like this micro reset as like oh we're going to watch a live game of football and it's sunny and you're seeing your friends and and then the game starts and you just click back into oh no no sort of real domination from Manchester United that feeling of the team being really flimsy at times Fulham had some great chances and this is a really struggling Fulham team United just don't go for the kill they have plenty of shots a lot of them from outside the area you're not watching the game thinking United are creating really good chances here and yet they're in the post all the time we can talk about individual players we can talk about about the manager but the bottom line is one winning five in the league is nowhere near good enough for Manchester United and I'll caveat that and say, yes, it is still early.

9:01But we're judging over five games now and we're seeing repeat patterns in each of those games. Pretty worrying ones at that. I agree. I mean, I think watching the team at the moment, it just feels like they could do more, generally speaking, in a defensive sense and in an attacking sense and in a physical sense as well. And I think that's why, no matter where you look today, you're getting distance-covered graphics and out-of-possession stats forced down your throats because they do not reflect well on the team at the moment. Now, there are counters to some of this data, which we'll get into as we go along on that.

9:43But just to sort of look at some of the tables that have been shared. So there's one shared by Sky Sports in the UK. Man United's out-of-possession stats. and the league ranks for distance at high intensity, time at high intensity, sprints, time sprinting are all league worse so far this season. They are all 20th. Possession time, walking out of possession, percentage time, sorry, walking out of possession, 17th as well, doesn't reflect well. Michael Cox has done an article on The Athletic where, again, there are some counters to some of this data, but he's got a couple of tables in there. The average distance covered per game, Manchester United are fifth from the bottom and then the average number of high-speed runs per game.

10:26So similar stats to the Sky stuff, but Manchester United are second bottom of the average number of high-speed runs per game by each club in the Premier League this season. And that just feeds into the frustration, Karris, doesn't it? That just feeds into some of the stuff that, well, there was former United players queuing up on the TV over the weekend to criticise them. I mean, Gary Neville's comment that it was the worst 15 minutes he'd ever seen from United at the start of the second half. I don't think it was the worst 15 minutes I'd seen this week, let alone ever, to be honest. But again, all this information, all these stats, all this data just feeds into that same sense that they're not doing enough right now.

11:06Yeah, that was my first thought with Gary Neville's comments was, did you not watch against Brighton? But, you know, that's sort of by the by, I think. The data is, it's important to put the context around the data. We're lucky to have a really great data team at The Athletic. And I messaged our kind of data and tactics whiz Duncan Alexander last night and said, like, why, I feel like whenever we ask you about running stats, you're always like, kind of take it with a bit of a pinch of salt. And it's just basically because they lack context, right? So they only ever tend to get brought up in relation to a team's results when they correlate.

11:42But for instance, looking at the average number of high-speed runs per game, for instance, United are second from bottom, but Manchester City are bottom and Hull are third from bottom. So that's just an example. Well, City and United have got the same data, basically. They are joint bottom, effectively, I suppose, of that particular table. What that's a reflection of is the approach to a game. right it's how much time you you try to spend with the ball attacking so I think what is a a valid way to approach this and what we're sort of trying to get at is it looks like United lack urgency but I think that's something that is more useful to just apply the eye test to right like we all watch a lot of football we watch a lot of Manchester United and we can see that they look at times very passive and like they are lacking the urgency that they need they're not on the front foot as much as we would want.

12:35The data can be used as a stick to beat them with, but what I think is actually more valuable is to look at the context around it and look at it and say they are not performing in the way that we would want. It's hard to balance lack of effort and lack of urgency. What is the right way to phrase it? And maybe I'm splitting hairs there. I think the team don't necessarily look like they're not trying. They look like they're not sure how to. They're not sure what the correct approach is to the different game states that are being thrown at them. And I think that's because, as I've said on the podcast before, I think teams are adapting to how Carrick wants Manchester United to play.

13:16Part of the thing of last season was that they were able to hit the ground running with quite a simple style of play and teams didn't really get too much chance to adapt to it. We saw when teams did to great effect, like Leeds last season, but now teams are adapting to it. We see more and more teams kind of trying to play United with a back five to kind of attack the wide areas and nullify the attempts to counter attack. Teams are adapting to United and United are not adapting back. That is making them look out of ideas, which is making them look passive. I think that's the discussion that needs to be had rather than centering it around kind of numbers.

13:53so that stat last week which went viral after the brighton game the one about covered distance covered where united were 14th in the league sprints 18th high speed runs 19th and that did what it was probably intended to do it invoked outrage and outrage does really well when manchester united are not doing well then again people are right to feel angry i know i feel and i'm seen with my own eyes but I sent that clip to a football analyst who's one of the best in the world at his job and I've got a few people who on the quiet they support Man United they're not really allowed to say it publicly but but I will speak to them and I said what do you think of this and he said this looks poor to the average fan with but with physical stats context is always hugely important teams almost always cover less distance and less intensity high distance when they have possession and when there aren't many counterattacks.

14:49There's rarely a correlation between the league position and the physical stats. In fact, if anything, usually the teams in the lower half of the physical data are more likely to be in control of matches. And then he sent me a load of stats, which lead into the argument that stats can prove everything because Manchester United were joint first in the league for shots, third in the league for ball possession, fifth for goal scores, fourth for goal chances, fourth for shots on goal, etc., etc. So I get all that. I get there's different sides to the argument. I also know what I'm seeing with my own eyes when I'm at the matches, and I know that it is not good enough, that the results are not good enough, that the mood among fans is reflective of that, and Manchester United should not be where they are in the league table.

15:33I wrote before Fulham that the points were exactly the same as at this time last year, and we also drew one all at Fulham last year. But he's starting to scrape the barrel more and more. United need wins United needed a win at Fulham I said on the last podcast need the big players to step up and that's not really happening either and yet you see oh that was a really good attack oof you just flicked the ball against the post oh that shot's just looped against the post maybe to a neutral which I'm not it's entertaining everyone's talking about the commentary online from watching the game on TV yesterday when you're in the stadium you don't see that I actually thought United came out five minutes after half-time and looked better.

16:17It looks more in control. But then the sun's shining down on you. There's a stanchion in your face. So you've probably not been able to see so much. I'm thinking, why have I not bought sunglasses? Why have I not got sun cream? I love this old stand at Fulham, but there's actually no leg room whatsoever. And who's sat over there? Oh, right. Is he just come on? It's a difficult watch. What did you make of Carrick's reaction to it all, Andy, as well? I mean, he sort of defended the approach and the effort and sort of energy of the team, shall we say, after the game against Fulham. But he must be fed up with the questions about it because every single game now, from that first match against Hull and some of the interviews after the game that went viral, it's the same sort of concerns and the same sort of things that the team are being questioned for.

17:05Everything is viewed through the prism of a result. and when you're not winning and when you've not been winning then people are going to be less likely to take on the message coming from Michael Carrick I think him being really calm and collected is a virtue I think it's a strength which when you're Manchester United manager is probably a good thing because there is so much noise around the club there's more noise each year I met a fan yesterday who didn't have his own podcast going into Fulham I was like oh nice one how come you you've not got one i'll be starting one next week i'm i'm being slightly facetious but i was going to say how many podcasts have you got 32 there is so much noise and people competing to to stand out among that noise a point i made earlier negativity doing a lot lot better you know a friend of mine last week tweeted that she's had the best meal outside a football ground ever outside old trafford i think it was like a punjabi meal and no one paid any notice right i am convinced if that would have been, this is the worst meal I've ever had outside a football ground, it would have gone completely viral and everyone piling in.

18:13You know, this is a state of the club. This is terrible. This is, but it doesn't. That said, if you're not winning matches, then the mood is going to drop like it has done. And with Michael Carrick, he defends his players. I don't think he calls them out publicly. So if we go back to last year at Fulham, in that little room, that was where Ruben Amarin, sorry two years ago called out marcus rashford that was there michael carrick does not do that now is he doing it behind closed doors because michael carrick needs wins as well i think it's frustrating i think fans are watching it and they're starting to get frustrated and touchy towards michael carrick because the the results are not good enough and he talks in quite general tones and i saw last week someone said they'd like to see more emotion and he bristled a little bit i mean i'd yeah i'd maybe more defiance but then that's me speaking as a fan you can't tell someone to be what they are not i'm not going to say it's a negative because he's the opposite of ruben amram who's very good very emotive very good communicator i don't think michael carrick is is a bad communicator it just doesn't give from a journalist perspective you're not getting the lines you're not getting the headline Carrick slams because he's he's more measured and he's more controlled and again I think that's probably a good thing he needs wins as much as anyone and then we're not focusing on on what Michael Carrick's demeanor is yeah definitely I mean I was in that press conference uh the end of last week where he was asked about showing more emotion I actually thought the press conference as a whole was one of the best he'd done since he was at Manchester United.

19:57He sort of came out fighting a little bit. It felt like he had an agenda from the minute he walked in the room and he was very keen to put that forward. And the questions over the job he was doing, his position, etc, etc, he had strong answers for. And it wasn't just me, actually. It came away from that speaking to some of the other journalists in there as well. And they were sort of encouraged by the way he was and what they saw from him. It's just difficult, Keres, isn't it? Because the team isn't winning. Also, if he's pleased with what he's seeing, I think he described the result of Fulham and the reaction at the end as a good step for the team to react when they're behind later on, when they've had the week that they've had and so on.

20:33Is this a stylistic thing then? Is this what he wants from his team, the way that they're approaching these things? I know Michael Cox, in his article, for example, countered the point that Neville was making about that particular passage of play he was analysing, but actually saying, well, if that's what they're being asked to do, they're actually doing it well. So they're being compact, they're in the right positions. That's why they're walking and they're not rushing to press. And Andy said something a few weeks ago on the podcast where the league is so much about man-to-man pressing and high octane energy and those sorts of approaches.

21:09And it seems like United are trying to do it differently. Yeah, well, I think United, first of all, can't press that effectively at the moment. I did a piece with Connor O 'Neill last night off the back of Brighton where we looked at some of the defensive issues and one of the ones that stands out to me is that when United try to defend from the front and press teams man for man, it just doesn't work. That doesn't mean you stop trying it forever. I would love for United to be a really high-octane, pressing team. That's where the second goal comes from against Brighton before it all comes crashing down.

21:41But a lot of the time, they just end up getting played through, right? So then the question becomes, how do you frustrate teams? Can you do that more effectively than can you defend more effectively by sitting in like a low mid block and trying to just make yourself difficult to break down than by trying to press and defend from the front? That can be more effective. It's nowhere near as fun to watch, but watching your team concede a load of goals isn't especially fun either. But the problem is that at the moment, United aren't doing either of those things close to flawlessly or close to kind of well enough.

22:16I thought the defending at times was lax again against Fulham. There's little moments of kind of poor marking and sort of making the wrong decision, not closing angles down soon enough or rushing out and closing them down too quickly. The decision making is just lacking. And again, sometimes you get away with that and we probably don't talk about it as much. But at the moment, they're not getting away with it because they're not being as effective at the other end of the pitch either. So it's quite hard to pin down exactly how United want to play at the moment, because I think they did have a very clear idea of how they wanted to play.

22:53It focused on counterattacking. It focused on kind of exploiting pace down the wings and having a target man up top. and that really helped and it relied on Bruno Fernandes doing a lot. At the moment, those elements are not clicking and the plan B is not particularly evident, which is why I think it can sometimes look a bit passive as it did against Fulham. And I'm not saying that the way the game against Fulham went or the way that they approached it was right or was acceptable or was what fans want to see. But just to paint a bit of context around why I think they approached it like that, I think they probably didn't want to jump out and leave too much space to be attacked because that was what they did against Brighton and they got completely torn apart.

23:37So I'm not surprised that they took a bit more of a passive approach. It's just that they weren't clinical enough with the chances they had to make that payoff. That's the difference.

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25:35So I suppose, Andy, then, is it a coaching issue that the team can't play that way? Is it a deliberate choice that the team aren't playing that way or is it just the reality of the players that are available right now that they they actually can't do what the rest of the league are doing and then is that a question over recruitment there's some of that i think michael carrick chooses his side based around the profiles of the players and his system to suit the profiles of the players the idea that you've got interchangeable forwards still missing players with each game. I think I'd love to see Ahmad back in a Manchester United shirt or the best version of Ahmad.

26:17Carlos Balaba was there. What type of player is he going to be? Don't want to pin too much hope on him. In terms of recruitment, you could say United should have done, be bold like Tottenham Hotspur. Go out, spend big, do really well. Just look at the league table. Tottenham, first, second, third, fourth. Oh, sorry. there's not going to be many laughs in this but there's a bit of solace that we're not spurs i suppose i just find it funny i don't even have a massive beef we're talking about i just find it funny that they keep losing every week maybe that's absolute um desperation but you even against fulham you're seeing you know iwobi getting getting the better of individual battles where manchester united players are losing out that also worries me that brighton game last week was really alarming to me and then three days later you see what Brighton do to Arsenal and you go oh okay but with each of them there's some merit to having excuses like that but they are just excuses and it just comes back again to one winning five is absolutely not good enough Cesco is someone who I think would be really big for Manchester United so when we spoke to him last week after the city game was it no it was after the sabba game just worried me a little bit about that shin injury um like oh right was it was it that serious and i hope that that doesn't linger on because manchester united didn't get a backup striker in the transfer window um you've got josh zirksy who who do you want to sell and now he's featuring and he comes on and i think had a shot late on yesterday.

27:59It's been brought on in all three games this week as United look to chase the game. Yeah, it's frustrating. You know when United go behind, there's like a real weakness. You just feel oof. You just feel the tension when the games at Old Trafford start to hit in. And that must convey itself to the players as well. And that City game last week, right from early on I just thought United are not winning this first half last week against Brighton completely different circumstances and I'm really nervous watching it and you're winning 2-0 because you're thinking Brighton are absolutely battering Manchester United here and then Fulham completely different game once again don't think it was good I thought Fulham last year they won all was actually not a bad performance but this year again I keep using the word alarming.

28:56United had moments of dominance in that first half, but Fulham had really good chances, really good chances. And that's a team who were at the bottom. What happens when you're playing the teams at the top? Yeah, I mean, Senna Lamans made six saves during the game. I know, you know, you can question his role in the goal, certainly. And the instinct is just grab it, mate, and worry about what happens next. Just make sure it doesn't go in the back of the net. And one other point, you know, Marcus Rashford, a chance there. I think he needs a goal and an assist more than anyone. I think he's been one of Manchester United's better players so far this season.

29:30I get that United fans are divided on him. I hear the comments when I'm at matches. But you've also lost Mathias Kunier in that position and he had a decent year last year. And then one other factor is you've lost Casemiro as well. How big a hole is he leaving? But then Bruno's not playing well, is he? And is he not playing well? Because he's not got Casemiro. And then you're looking at Telemans and you're thinking this is a player who tries to keep things ticking over. In every single game, Tielemans does something really beautiful, a little twist where he goes past somebody and yet he's playing in a part of the pitch where Manchester United are frequently getting overrun for parts of games.

30:07I think that Ahmad being out injured has been... I'm not saying that he would have been a match winner in all of the games that Manchester United have lost or dropped points in at all but I think it's been overlooked in terms of the impact that that's had just on the balance of the attack because what it's meant is that Brian Mbumo is almost kind of exclusively out on the right rather than deputising for Benjamin Czesco when he's not been available up front which was kind of the preferred solution when Czesco was injured last season. So then you're having Matthias Cunha as sort of a false nine.

30:40I've not been, I know he can do that role but I've not been that convinced by how he's played it for United so far this season. I would like to see him given a chance out on the left wing. And then the anger from some quarters that he's not being given that chance comes back to bite Marcus Rashford, despite the fact that the actual reason Kunja isn't playing on the left wing, I don't think is because of Rashford. I think it's because of Kunja being needed up front, because of Mbouma being needed on the right. Like there's a knock-on effect that Ahmad being unavailable has had throughout the attack.

31:12and I think him coming back probably helps redress that a little bit. Although there's also Shea Lacey to consider, at what point does he get given more of a chance in a league game? Again, none of these things are excuses or are outright fixes for the issues that there have been. But I'm looking forward to hopefully Ahmad coming back, having a bit more of an effect on that balance and just letting players actually play in their best positions a little bit more. One of the players who has got the aerobic ability in those positions to properly press and has been brilliant in the past as well. Carlos Buleba, you think, would bring more energy into the middle of the park as well.

31:49Benjamin Sesko, it's a huge concern, this. I mean, I just want to pick up on two things, really, that's come from people's emails that you've both just spoken about. So, first one from Anthony. He says, while there's much to like about Carrick's calm demeanour, I can't help but feel he's allowing games to drift, by which time the opposition has seized the initiative before substitutions are made. Generally, substitutions for Carrick have been questioned a lot, to be honest. Even when they were winning last season, there was times where the substitutions were questioned. Obviously, Kobe Mainu being brought off yesterday was met by booze in the away end, which doesn't happen very often, a decision like that, receiving that sort of reaction.

32:30And then Chris as well, Andy, says, how on earth wasn't it a priority to get a backup striker in for Cesco in the summer when he's shown himself to be fairly injury prone during his time at United and we seemingly can't seem to play without a striker? I mean, that's something I've come back to as well. If Cesco's problem is related to his shin again and he's missed the entire pre-season with an injury that we knew he had at the end of last season, it feels like a hell of a gamble on his availability coming into this campaign to just go with him and not prioritise another forward in the summer transfer market and allocate the budget that they had, the limited budget they had that way.

33:07So why? Well, they couldn't move Joshua Zerkesy on and decided to keep him because they needed a backup striker. Why? Because there was a budget for the summer and rightly or wrongly, Manchester United focused on the midfield. My frustration was the left-back because I felt that that was absolutely needed. And if Pusesco is going to be out, it's going to be a big miss because I was thinking this is going to be his season. This is where he scores even more goals. He becomes more of a player. He said that much after the Sabah game when he was talking to us. Look, I've still got a long way to go.

33:49So you're going for this emerging talent. I think the fans are all right with that. Great. let's watch him get better and better and stay at the club and everything's going to be going to be great again but if he's injured that's an another big blow for for Manchester United I don't have any miracle answers here Ian I would have loved to have seen him buy another forward and another and another left back and then it didn't happen because my understanding as I kept saying throughout in the summer was that there was a budget. There was a budget to spend. And more or less, it was spent. Yeah, it's just whether, you know, you come back to the question now about how that money was allocated.

34:32Obviously, three midfielders was what was seen as the priority. That's the area where United put the majority, if not all of their attention, on recruitment in the summer. And I suppose if Ahmad had been fit, you'd then got the option of playing Mbumo through the middle, which Carrick actually preferred to Sesko at times last season. So if Ahmad is back after the international break, which was the indication that was given by Carrick after the game yesterday, then that would be a huge plus. Matthias De Ligt as well, edging closer to fitness, although it sounds like Marcus Rashford may be missing from the England squad during this break.

35:06It looked like he was coming off holding his hip yesterday, which he was also doing in a previous game as well. So maybe that's an area that needs some attention. and I thought he looked just like he was lacking a bit of conviction yesterday in some of his actions in that first half in particular. That was the worst I think Rashford has been since he's been back at the club, to be honest, and we've obviously praised him for his performance in some of the other games and the impact that he's had, despite not getting that goal or assist dandy, like you said. How serious is this for Sesko? Do we know yet?

35:35Because if he has an extended spell on the sidelines again, then that's going to be a huge issue for Carrick, isn't it? yeah i think the scans are taking place on monday and we learn after that so i don't know how long he would be out for what concerns me slightly is how long he was out for last time um i'm hoping that it's not serious but until the scans take place i don't know the answer to that No. Okay. Well, we're certainly not wading through the good news at the moment, are we, where Manchester United are concerned? I think I can say that again pretty safely. I mean, the general mood, Keris, this is something that we wanted to pick up on on the podcast as well because we've kind of touched on it in previous episodes as well.

36:26We certainly did after the Brighton game and some of the reaction of the supporters inside the stadium to the team leaving the field that night. I mean, online, it's pretty toxic, to be honest, the opinions and the takes on Manchester United at the moment. Again, going back to Sky Sports' coverage yesterday in the UK, Ashley Young, Louis Saha, Gary Neville pretty much queuing up to have their say on the team, describing them as mannequins, saying the team looked like they were playing at the pace of a charity game. Ashley Young just cut in saying it's just simply not good enough. And there's so much frustration amongst supporters at the moment as well.

37:03Obviously, you've got a lot of baggage with the feeling as well from supporters at the ground of the way that a lot of the season tickets feel like they've been treated in recent times and the arguments over and the anger over the club's approach to the ticket touting crackdown over the summer as well. There's so much packaged into this. And obviously, you had protests before the game last week as well. It's a really tough moment, this, isn't it, for United? and I think it feels more painful in some ways because we're pretty optimistic coming into this season. You were looking across the league and so many changes at other clubs, so much heaval, not least across the city, a huge figure in Pep Guardiola walking away.

37:44Fast forward to now, they've won all the games and United are looking at the same sort of issues. The feeling that we've got right now, we've had so many times in recent years and it doesn't feel like it's an easy out at the moment, does it? anywhere no I think it's a perfect storm of things it's number one expectations were high and it always feels worse to come down when expectations were high there's a lot of anger towards the club from fans from season ticket holders about the way that they feel the club are approaching ticketing at the moment that's a massive issue and I think people carry that with them on a match day especially at Old Trafford there's also anger at you know the perceived kind of approach to the transfer.

38:30I think the transfer window ended on a really negative note, basically because of not signing a left back. And I think that that emotion maybe hasn't quite dissipated. It's just now being redirected to different things. And first and foremost, the results aren't good enough. Right. I think it's one thing to come away from a game feeling that your team

38:55lost and were unfortunate to lose. The problem at the moment is that Man United fans keep walking away from games thinking that their team didn't get a result and didn't deserve to get a result. It's the worst of all worlds. And like you say, it's something that Man United fans have also become used to. And they don't want to see the negative spiral starting again, because I think we've all been at the top of that spiral so many times and watched how quickly it descends and how draining it is. and you want to avoid that but at the same time the sheer thought of it is so deflating and is so negative so it's a really difficult time to be a fan of the club at the moment because you are struggling to you're struggling to find the positives and when you do find a positive you have 10 times as many people jumping down your throat saying that you should be talking about how terrible everything is instead so you really can't win and it's not a particularly fun time to be involved with the club Adam Crafton our colleague tweeted last week about how it's it's now suddenly in a place again where even not on a match day it feels draining to to look at Manchester United and to look at the news around the club and the mood around the club and I think it's the fact that it's come back to that point so quickly after what was such a uplifting second half of of last season that is so disappointing

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41:58Yeah, and the thing is, it does happen where there's a bit of a pile-on where United are concerned and the doom cycle, like I referred to before, is in full churn and every single day it feels like there's a negative story coming your way. And the contrary in you or the supporter in you, the fan in you, likes to counter that and say, no, I've seen this, I believe in this, I want to point to that to be the reason for optimism at the moment. It's just really difficult to sort of find that right now. And I've never seen our email inbox quite so bulging with quite so many angry people. And I have to say, usually it's a fairly moderate audience, people who decide to email in.

42:45Everyone is welcome to, of course, devilspod at theathletic.com. But the ones that we've received this week, Andy, across the board, just to give a flavour of what people are saying, and literally I could be here all day sort of reading out people's thoughts. And I think it does help to sort of give a reflection of how people are feeling. So first up, we've got Rowan who says, Not angry, upset or sad, just resigned. We thought stage five of grief is acceptance, but that was a few years ago. I'm sure scientists are conducting research on Manchester United fans right now to define stages 8, 9, 10 of grief.

43:19Because that is exactly how I'm feeling now. Kevin, last season under Michael Carrick was a free hit. Nothing was expected and so we achieved. It feels like the core of this team, the overall culture of the squad and perhaps even the club, is that they simply can't handle playing when there's expectation. That culture that seems to infect incoming players that once they've been in for a short while, that happens to them too. and so the cycle repeats. Mike, it's rapidly becoming clear to me that Michael Carrick is out of his depth as a Manchester United manager. I always feared this would happen as soon as the honeymoon was over.

43:52Brilliant job last season as interim, but now the reality is setting in. Sonny, I must say I loved your show when it first started. It was fresh and insightful, full of small details and insights as fans can enjoy. Your show is starting to sound like propaganda. The squad is not fit, that's on the coaches. I promise you Sonny, it's not propaganda. We're just doing our best to try and reflect what people are feeling, what people are saying, the insight that we've got on what things are going on at the club. Generally speaking, the start to the season was very positive and that has dissipated very, very quickly.

44:24Obviously, everyone's watching the same games. Yaya emailing at halftime, so I know I could be made to look an idiot, but even if we're going to win, it's just more of the same. We look so slow, on and off the ball, bereft of ideas almost. Is this because of physical conditioning? whichever way you look Andy, it's very difficult to counter some of these points, isn't it? Yeah, we've got a very divided and fractured fan base. Results are setting the mood for everything. It seems like there's a negative Manchester United story every single day. The JJ Gabriel one hit last week. However you saw it, it wasn't a positive story.

45:07I wrote a piece for The Athletic on Thursday, Friday, and one of the sentences was that Sir Jim Ratcliffe's comments don't usually land well when he starts to publicly espouse his worldview. The following day he did an interview where he didn't talk about Manchester United but talked about issues, political issues, which people feel really strongly about, rightly or wrongly, but because he is the leading decision-maker at Manchester United, then he gets pulled into the Manchester United world, even though he's not talking about Manchester United. There's a lot of anger because expectations were higher.

45:46I don't think people thought we'd win the league this year, but I thought they thought, not unreasonably so, that it would be far, far better than what it has been. And I share that. I feel that. I'm at the games. You say about former legends queuing up to have a go, I'm not even comfortable. I know you're right, but I want to defend Manchester United because people are attacking the club that you love and some people are doing really well out of attacking the club but then they've got valid opinions as well they're entitled to those opinions it isn't good we can see that with our own eyes trust levels are really low between fans and the club for the reasons which Keris outlined I think the honeymoon period which inios enjoyed is well and truly over you've seen infighting among fans online not really at matches it is it is different at matches it just is i think people say stuff online that they wouldn't say in real life and again i stood outside fulham yesterday meeting reds from everywhere um very different from how it is online but you're getting like um the the people organizing the protest like the 58 group people now attacking them for not encouraging people to empty the stadium and then you're getting fans who go to the games going i'm not going to listen to someone who's never been to a game telling me what to do and then the ensuing argument that comes from that and it's a version of a of a civil war and it's unedifying and it's pretty unpleasant.

47:30As Kerry said, anyone involved around Manchester United at the moment, everyone feels it. I think the player feels it. I think the staff feel it. I saw someone last week saying the whole club, everyone there, it's a complete disgrace. Actually, there's hundreds of just pretty normal people who work at Manchester United who are not a disgrace. They're just doing the job to the best of their ability. They're Manchester United fans. They want the club to do well. They're not an absolute disgrace. They're good at what they do. They're just normal working people. And you just see the mood. I keep using that word mood.

48:11We used it pre-season. We said the mood's good pre-season. Yeah, we did, yeah. It feels like a long time ago now, doesn't it? I mean, we weren't lying. No. But what does that even mean now? What does it count for? The start of last season, the mood was good. I remember walking into Carrington after it had all been done up and the team were beginning to start the season. There was Mbumo, there was Cuny, there was Sesko arriving as well. It felt really positive then and that didn't carry much weight once the football started properly. But then there's the other thing, and we should always mention this, the Glazers, they affect how Manchester United do business.

48:46The club have a huge debt. You have people taking money out of the club. in comparison with rivals where you've got benefactors of various repute, putting money into their club. And it is a factor. It is. Just going back to something you said a moment ago as well, and you wrote it in the article last week on The Athletic, the honeymoon period for Ineos is over. What does that mean in reality? Well, I think a default of fans is always not to like the owners anyway. I mean, I've done United We Stand for 38 years. that's why i made made such a point of when jim ratcliffe presented bruno fernandez with his 250th appearance shirt this is unusual and got applauded well that just doesn't happen normally martin edwards wouldn't have got applauded david gill wouldn't have got applauded peter kenyon wouldn't have got applauded richard arnold you know the main decision makers so it was actually rare that that happened because these are the people who have to make unpopular decisions and everyone of course knows that run a football club better than the people making those decisions but i think there was hope because they weren't the glazers when they came in but even then you had a load of people pushing for Qatar which also divided the fan base because you had loads of people going we don't want to be state owned and then you had loads of people going you had loads of accounts which suddenly disappeared this guy offered to buy everything that as in the Qatar bid yeah shaped the sims and then another point i've made in this article anyone on this planet could have bought into Manchester United when the club went to market because the club had been losing money.

50:21Anyone. Only two groups came forward and went through the various rounds and only one could show proof of funds. So what is the solution to this? What you can't have is a repeat of last year where there's no games, there's no competitions. There's one reason why that Brighton game stung, actually. Cup competitions are important. You know, do Manchester United find a way out of this in the Champions League? Does that become your escape? But then I can't see beyond Atletico Madrid in the next match and they're a really good team and they've managed to keep the best stride. I know we're laughing.

51:03We're laughing. It's like I saw Donny laugh. I'm worried. I'm worried him. There's varying degrees of anger. there's varying degrees of you know get rid of the manager now keep the manager all these sort of conversations which come and that all comes because it's been a a really poor start to the season you know you get your groove you win three or four matches that all changes that's the other side of this but we need that to happen and we've got to wait three weeks for even the prospects of it may be happening um and when you look at the fixtures just to finish off and i'm sorry that i I can't bring anyone a bit of solace or a smile or a bit of positivity at the end of this podcast because I imagine it's been a difficult listen.

51:46It's certainly been a difficult record for us. But when you look at the fixtures coming up, Keris, they're not easy at all to find those three or four wins in a row or that little period. The other part of me thinks, well, maybe the bigger games, the bigger occasions bring the best out of this Manchester United. Maybe that's the hope for what's to come. but even that Tottenham game sort of after this break you know they're coming to United bottom of the league and you know United have to have to find a way to win that game and then it's Atletico and then it's Leeds away and then it's Como away in the Champions League and then it's Bournemouth at home which is a game they've found so tricky in recent times then Chelsea away then Roma then Aston Villa then Anfield against Liverpool yeah doesn't get any easier does it?

52:34There's no respite But this is what fans want to be in the Champions League. Players, the club, the manager want to be in the Champions League. They want the games to come thick and fast. And the double-edged sword of that is it means you have always more chances to correct the momentum. It also means you always have more chances to accelerate negative momentum, right? That's the nature of playing two games a week. and it feels a particularly sort of harsh run of Premier League fixtures that I mean Spurs the first weekend back has the potential to you know be a bit of Dr Tottenham come to cheer us up if Manchester United lose that game that's a terrible game to lose and I know and I will you know I'll stop that there's no point speculating on that because it's three weeks away we're spiraling enough as it is yeah but it's it's a really tough run of fixtures coming up and teams will look at united as vulnerable at the moment so that's where the group need to find whatever mentality and whatever kind of belief that they found last season to go okay everyone has written us off this season nobody thinks we're going to do well what do we do how do we play how do we respond to that they used to react really well to losses they used to always come back from a loss the rare ones that there were under Michael Carrick because there weren't that many last season they would respond to them and they would come back and they would at least get a result if not necessarily play brilliantly that seems to have gone so there needs to be work done over the international break to examine the issues to work really closely with the players that are still there that aren't on international duty and to try and understand I think what the players are feeling as well we don't know what's going on behind closed doors what what do they think about the style that they are trying to play at the moment do they know what that style is do they feel like they're equipped to do it what do they think they're equipped to do what do they think is the best way for them to win football games I think that's a really important question as well is understanding what tactics and what strategy the players actually feel they can't have all the power obviously but we've seen the value in the switch from Amarim to Carrick of players being put in a system that actually works for them and that plays to their strengths do they still feel they have that if not what can be corrected if any good can come from this three week break there could be some kind of reset where you almost start the season again that that that is my glass half full hope thank you that they just get together and go look we're miles better than this this just isn't good enough and they have some honest words 30 years ago that would have been over several rounds of drinks it doesn't happen like that now where they come out with some home truths to each other where delict belaba um ahmad come back in and the tottenham game's a huge one but then fulham was huge one ipswich was huge everton was huge just need to start winning matches that is the most important thing it is it certainly is um so many questions at the moment i hope we've reflected how you're feeling asked the questions that you wanted asking discuss the topics that you wanted us to discuss today it's really difficult to encompass everything that's being said and thought and um written about manchester united at the moment to be honest but we'll be back on thursday on talk the devils if you can muster the energy let's see uh what's said and what happens between now and then but for the minute thank you for your company as always please get involved in the comments and send us emails with your thoughts um keris and andy thank you so much for being with us and we'll see on the next one take care bye

56:43The Athletic FC.

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