Carrick in limbo at Man United

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2:01The Athletic FC.

2:18This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. We are live on YouTube. It's Wednesday evening. It's been a day of waiting, really, for Manchester United and Manchester United's fans. It's been a day of waiting for us to do this podcast as well. We've been waiting for news as of yet at nearly 8pm local time in the UK on Wednesday. Michael Carrick, as we understand, is still the head coach of Manchester United. We're going to be getting into exactly what's happening at the club at the moment. What decision may still be coming from them? Who could be next after Michael Carrick, depending on what happens with him?

2:57Of course, reaction to what was a pretty mutinous day at Old Trafford on Sunday. A really disappointing day once again on the field as well. A 3-0 defeat to Bournemouth. Who's to blame? There is so much to talk about. My goodness me. Laurie's here, Andy's here, Keres is here as well. Welcome along everyone who's joined us already on YouTube. the comments are already flying in. I'll try our very best. Have I called it Wednesday? It's only Monday. That's how long this week feels already. It's been a very long Monday. Don't wish the week away Ian. What a week we've got in store. Yeah, okay. It's been a long week already.

3:30It's Wednesday. Fantastic. Right, Laurie, come on then. It's not Wednesday, it's Monday and Michael Carrick's still the Manchester United head coach at the moment, isn't he? I can't believe we've not heard anything. We're all anticipating something to come out of Old Trafford today.

3:43Laurie Whitwell: Well, there were a few things coming out of Old Trafford people going into all traffic out of Carrington should I say sorry going into Carrington coming out good start Michael Carrick went into Carrington today obviously it's one of those days where the photographers are out in force to capture people's arrivals you know people arrive at work is a story on daylight today Jason Wilcox Omar Barada Michael Carrick watched the under 21s play against Hull City in a game because some of the players that he had against Bournemouth were involved and as far as we have it right now, I wouldn't anticipate any kind of update either way on Michael Carrick's future and I would actually even go further and say I would perhaps anticipate him taking training tomorrow at Carrington, which feels like...

4:31Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, that's the mood I'm getting. Obviously, it's a... I wouldn't say fast-moving situation because it's felt like I've been waiting all day, but it's a moving situation. So obviously, these things can change and I don't think anybody is making any long-term predictions. And I wouldn't say that that would necessarily even say that he's staying as Manchester United manager. But I do think that the anticipation as it stands is that he would take training tomorrow morning. Andy, what's your reaction to that? Because like I said at the top, it's not Wednesday, it's Monday. But we have waited all day for some communication out of the club.

5:05It was hotly anticipated that Michael Carrick would be losing his job. He was asked directly about that multiple times and his media following the defeat to Bournemouth. But as of yet, he is still in charge. And it sounds like, like Laurie's mentioned, that he could even be taking training when the players return after that Bournemouth game on Tuesday to Carrington.

5:26Andy Mitten: Yeah, I think there's quite a lot of people who are party to this decision because of the way that Manchester United's ownership is structured. It's not just a case of one person going, right, enough, we're going to change managers. I think there's got to be consultation between different groups, including the Glazers in America. They were on a different timescale to Europe, obviously. And then you've got the people in Manchester and beyond. I don't think they want to rush into any decision. From Michael Carrick's perspective, it's, I'm going to say business as usual, but we all know that it's not.

6:04Andy Mitten: But I think he's just continued doing what he was normally going to do on the Monday. and I just think he's a bit gutted. I think he greatly appreciated the support but he's also gutted what's happening to Manchester United. As manager, he's part of that but, and we'll discuss that in greater detail, how much a part of it is Michael Carrick. So it's not looking good for him but I don't think the decision makers will rush into a decision. there would be lots to sort out who would come in for example if they were to get rid of Michael Carrick compensation that type of stuff as well Yeah, Pedpooks one of the people who's asked the question in the comments Andy would they not have had a plan for this eventuality considering what the mood was like heading into that Bournemouth game and the form of the team and just the whole environment really around the club the last couple of weeks Well if they have they've not triggered it have they they've not put it into action straight away sometimes I see stuff online this is going to happen, he's going to lose his job he'll be gone by the morning but that's just often based on emotion and what people think may happen it's not always based on fact so the pressure I've been building it's clearly been a dreadful season so far the similarities with previous managers I can remember two or three weeks before Ole Gunnar Solskjaer went speaking to basically the person who was going to have to sack him and they really wanted it to work out for Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and he didn't and he lost his job and with Michael Carrick you know we've seen that the form's even worse than it was on Ole Gunnar Solskjaer the manner of the performances and again I'm sure we'll go into more detail on all of that as well so it's not happening and the game finished what 26 hours ago 27 hours ago from when we're speaking it hasn't happened but what's to say that something won't happen soon but I cannot say exactly when that is or if it will happen for certain Yeah that's surprising in some ways Karris I mean you know you were in the press conference like me and Laurie on Sunday after the game against Bournemouth the questions the reactions from Michael Carrick the whole way that game had finished even I am surprised or I would be surprised if he continued as the head coach.

8:37Even he seemed like he would be surprised in some ways the way he was answering the questions. But I suppose it's only been a day. But then in other ways, you'd have expected them to act and act quickly to try and change the mood, change the moment because Sunday was a disaster for everyone involved. Yeah, I've got to say I'm really surprised that we're sat at 8pm and haven't heard news that he's lost his job and that's not out of any kind of ill will towards Michael Carrick. But, you know, as you just said, Ian, the way that the fans, sort of the way he interacted with the crowd at the end yesterday, the way that he spoke in his press conference was sort of very much, you know, I don't know what's next.

9:18I want what's best for the football club. He was asked very sort of like bluntly, you know, do you expect to be sacked tonight or tomorrow? And he said he didn't know. You know, it was not that he'd spoken to executives after the game as normal, but kind of nothing out of the ordinary. But the impression that I left that conversation with all of us with was that he would not be staying in his job just based on his demeanour, based on the performance we all saw, which, you know, the performance almost ended up feeling like it was sort of overshadowed by the kind of crowd reaction. But it was another really, really poor performance and another one where Michael Carrick couldn't make tactical tweaks to turn it around.

9:58and I thought if that was the response that he got from his squad after the massive sort of rallying cry that he issued on Friday, then his position felt untenable to me. So I'm really surprised that we're sat here and haven't heard of a change. Yeah, I mean, there's lots of different ways to take this conversation, Laurie, I suppose, and we'll try and do it bit by bit as we can over the course of this stream. But some questions here. Gethin Ev says, is there a case for character stay? Do we know if the players are having him? He's put in inverted commas. Chris Power, one of many who's put pointless to sack him because nothing ever changes.

10:37Is there any way that he continues, even?

10:39Laurie Whitwell: I think there is, which does surprise me because I thought last night from speaking to people around it that we would come to today and it would be that familiar feeling where an announcement is made and he departs the club It certainly looked like a bit of a farewell, really, to Old Trafford. Now, he obviously came out straight away and said it wasn't a farewell, but that interaction with the crowd did feel like he was taking his moment to appreciate it if he didn't get another one. And yeah, so can he stay? I mean, there's certainly people that I've been speaking to today who have got support for Michael Carrick, who know about United for a long time, who said it'd be fantastic if they actually backed him and said, we are going to break this cycle of getting rid of head coaches when the going gets tough.

11:31Laurie Whitwell: I don't believe that he's lost the players in that sense. I think there's certainly players there that would support him. Now, obviously, they're not all one voice. They have different opinions. Clearly, we've seen him having to take action with Bruno Fernandes against Bournemouth. I'm not saying that he's particularly against Michael Carrick, but clearly you've got perhaps voices that are wondering if this is the right way forward. And given that performance against Bournemouth, it did feel so fragmented and lots of mistakes in it. It was difficult to see a way that this would then progress and United would be able to get back up to the table because you're starting to look over your shoulder a little bit.

12:05Laurie Whitwell: I mean, maybe that's the pessimistic streak that I've got now at this moment in time. Because I like to consider myself an optimist in life, but you're sort of looking at... Manchester United will beat out of you, Laurie. Don't worry about that. Yeah, it feels a little bit like that, you know, man. Like, obviously, we're very blessed to do the job that we do and it's a privilege. But at times it can be a tough slog. And certainly when you're looking at the league table and you're seeing that United are one point above the relegation zone, two points above bottom, it feels a bit bleak. But clearly Carrick has still got that fight about him.

12:37Laurie Whitwell: He came to work today, as usual, to watch that under-21s game. Shea Lacey played in it, Tyler Fletcher played in it, Harry Amas played in it. So he's doing his bit to continue as is. He's not been told any difference. So, yeah, and so could that sustain? I think, though, it'd be really important for United to then make a clear judgment on that. I don't think it can be the case that, well, we haven't figured out a replacement and we're still wondering what to do. I think that just drags it out and it is a real poor environment to be in. I think it has to be clear and concise and obvious to everybody.

13:15Laurie Whitwell: I think you open up a whole world of issues if you're not that way. And so that's what today's felt like, to be honest. It's felt a little bit uncertain. Like, you know, it hasn't really been definitively stated that Michael Carrick will be the head coach for the Chelsea game, for example. And clearly that is because these talks, you know, ongoing to that end. I can't see any other reason for that. So, yeah, I think he could stay, but I think it would need United publicly to come out. I think they'd need other voices, not just Michael Carrick. I know we've kind of gone down this road before, but I think it would need, and I know they're under pressure, I know they were the voice, the attention of the Stretford end on Sunday, but Jason Wilcox as Director of Football, Omar Prado as Chief Executive, lo and behold, to Jim Ratcliffe as co-owner, the Glazers, I know they're not going to speak, but it needs more communication from the hierarchy to explain what's going on and to give a clear plan for people.

14:15Laurie Whitwell: Do you agree, Karis? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, we're at a point now and I think Old Trafford fans made it very, very clear how they felt yesterday that they did not think sort of sacking Michael Carrick would be an answer to the club's problems. It's that sense of, you know, at what point do you break a cycle? At what point do you stick with a manager through a really rough patch? I'm not saying this is necessarily the right manager to do that with. If the players are no longer buying in, I don't know that to be the case. But if there is doubt from the dressing room, if there is persistent doubt from the fan base, if there is doubt from the board, then perhaps this is not the right manager to stick with.

14:58But the question from the crowd very clearly yesterday was at some point, when are you going to stick with a head coach? Or alternatively, when are you going to take responsibility rather than letting the head coach carry the can? Again, Michael Carrick was asked post-match, are we at the point now where Omar Barada or Jason Wilcox should be sitting here and taking these questions from us and addressing fans? And he sort of said, you know, I know my responsibility is to speak on behalf of the club. And that is kind of the status quo in English football. But it feels increasingly untenable. You know, Michael Carrick is the seventh permanent head coach after Sir Alex Ferguson.

15:37He is not the common denominator in this situation. None of them are. It's the people who are above him who are. And I know there's been a change in kind of Ineos coming in and the controlling stake in kind of football operations. But still, it's those above the dugout, not the people in it, who have been the common factor across all these years of decline. Yeah, we'll definitely talk about the ownership, the leadership of Ineos as well, because the crowd spoke very loud on Sunday with exactly how they feel about the situation at the club at the moment. but something has to change Andy, doesn't it?

16:11Manchester United, as we speak now, are 16th place after eight games. They're one point above the relegation zone. It was already their worst ever Premier League start before losing 3-0 again to Bournemouth. No matter which way you cut it and it's almost hard to know who to blame because it feels like a lot of the time there's a bit of everything and a bit of everyone going into this mixture at the moment. It's not a pleasant cocktail for Manchester United, but the current status can't continue, can it?

16:42Andy Mitten: No, it can't. It's absolutely dreadful, and there's a lot of people to blame here. The players, Michael Carrick, his coaching staff, the Glazers, the more deep-rooted, long-standing reasons as to why Manchester United are struggling. But I'm watching the team through my fingers every single game. I did radio before the game yesterday, and I said, I fully expect Manchester United to lose against Bournemouth. And the host said, seriously? And I said, seriously? And you stop watching the match and you think, okay, five minutes gone and we're not a goal down. And you're seeing repeat patterns. You're seeing rival midfields just cutting through Manchester United, knife through butter and all that.

17:26Andy Mitten: Bournemouth played very well. The latest team to play very well. The latest team to be allowed to play very well. Experienced, looked like a team, cohesive unit. Manchester United don't look like a team that they're absolutely dreadful it is as bad as I have ever seen it's probably worse than I have ever seen and some of that has got to be on the coaches do you think it is the worst you've ever seen Andy the worst you've felt as a Manchester United fan and a journalist following the club as well because it's yeah not to give your age away but you've been doing this a while right yeah I mean I'm nearly 21 and it's probably so you know I started United with standing in 1989 when the team were 13th in the league and there was excitement when we first sold it that if we won, we'd move up to 8th.

18:10Andy Mitten: And for years, I'd laugh at that situation because Manchester United were so far away from that. And the first couple of years were really rough and fans turned against the manager, against the club. Most United fans wanted Sir Alex Ferguson to be sacked. Attendances plummeted. That's the difference between then and now. Old Trafford is still pretty full, although there were empty seats against Bournemouth, and that's really rare. I can remember Manchester United not winning a game from November until February when we first started United We Stand, and then they went away to Millwall and got a win.

18:48Andy Mitten: And it's probably worse than that now because United are such a big, powerful club and have really important players. expectations are clearly much higher as well but even then watching some of them defeats I never went in thinking United are going to lose today and I do now every game even when United are ahead like against Brighton I still think we could lose this game there's no control of the games whatsoever and I know the fans were singing for Michael Carrick I get why but the coaching staff have got to take some blame as well. Steve Holland was supposedly the tactical mind behind Gareth Southgate doing so well.

19:30Andy Mitten: England getting to the semifinals and finals of major international competitions after years of underachieving. Jonathan Woodgate is a well-respected defensive coach. Why are they not doing anything? Because them players can't be as bad. They just can't be as what we're seeing. And I think a lot of it is on the players and there are intangibles like confidence. And I've spoken, like I'm sure you all have, To people involved in football, I spoke to two or three coaches yesterday. I spoke to a couple of sports directors. How do you see Manchester United? And the footballing people are going, you're just in a washing machine here.

20:05Andy Mitten: There's bad decisions being made. There's substitutions. One fella said to me, I've been there myself. Your head just goes. And sports directors, it's a weak football club. It's a really weak club. and we know that and we can see that and it's all pretty damning. And then there's the other issues which we'll discuss, the Glazers, the Glazers, the Glazers. That is the cloud that has hung over Manchester United for so, so long. And Ineos, because their decisions have not been good and they've been in control now for two or three years and I don't think it's unfair to judge them and their decisions and their recruitment and there's been some good ones and there's been some bad ones.

20:51Andy Mitten: Manchester United, look at the league table, it's not lying. And Laurie used the word relegation. I don't think Manchester United will go down, but yesterday I did start thinking, well, at least we get a big allocation at Blackburn. And if Preston stay up, we get 6 ,000 tickets there. And might not be that such a bad thing if it meant the Glazers actually leaving Manchester United. And then you're thinking, how on earth would we come to thinking like this? Because it is that bad.

21:19Laurie Whitwell: sorry Andy they wouldn't leave in a relegation I've seen this sort of mentioned but surely they would only leave when the value's at the maximum they could get for it yeah they'd want to see it through wouldn't they yeah yeah I agree with that Laurie I think I think they would leave when they felt like they could extract maximum value from it and a relegation it's obviously darling to say isn't it the exact opposite of that

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23:36That is part of the problem, Laurie, in a way. Some of the issues that Manchester United have got at the moment, and there's a lot of them and we can talk about whether the players are right, whether they're good enough in the first place, whether they're applied enough that they need to be, whether the head coach is good enough, whether he's the right person, whether the coaching staff around him are good enough, whether they're the right people, whether the leadership team are good enough, whether they're the right people. You can go through all of this and actually pick holes in quite a lot of it and ask quite a lot of questions that you don't necessarily know the answers to.

24:08And that's the biggest issue, I think, right now. and I think that's why I feel like this is the worst I've known because I don't really know what I'm putting my faith or hoping or who I'm putting my faith in and hoping for it to get better quickly. I'm not sure who I'm looking to.

24:25Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, blind faith. You're sort of just hoping for... In what? Well, yeah. I mean, that's why Carrick got, I think, the reception he got. I'm not necessarily saying that everybody singing his name yesterday was thinking he's the way forward. But I think certainly in this most recent period, he's overseen the successful sequence of results since Ineos came in. You're right. Eric Tanarg, end of his reign, no. Ruben Amarin, no. Michael Carrick as interim, yes. And then now obviously he's permanent, no. And I thought also the fact that he does tap into that history. I know that people probably roll their eyes and think, here we go again.

25:06Laurie Whitwell: you know somebody in the head coach position manager position talking about what united used to be we need to get beyond that we need to have it fresh and think of new innovative ways to get back to success and be title challengers but there is a resonance there for people because they're the joy that they've known supporting united so carrick is a link to that and he understands the club him being there today for example watching the 21s he's done that multiple times obviously going to Oxford for example you know when he was interim head coach and so that's something that I think just shows his understanding and care for the club obviously he used to go as an away fan to matches he spoke about being a season ticket holder so that's something that I think in this world of brutal finance and you know the bleakness of you know we're talking about the Glazers selling for maximum profit that is something that is real and genuine to people where you've got that emotion, that connection, that shared memories.

26:01Laurie Whitwell: And so that's what people are hoping for, finding a way through that. And that's why I think when you're talking about the names that could come in, there's not that huge appetite. Yeah, there's possibly a couple of big names that in a dream world think everybody would get behind. But United's financial picture is such, because of the Glazers and because of the mismanagement of the club, that we're talking about serious sort of dilemmas here. And again, you can point fingers at the current regime because they've chosen to hire Dan Ashworth and then get rid of him, re-sign Erickson Haag, then get rid of him, pay a load of money to get Ruben Amren, then get rid of him.

26:38Laurie Whitwell: Not least then, you know, they've obviously made the choice to spend£63.5 million on land for a stadium that, you know, we still don't know exactly if that's going to come to fruition. So they've obviously made financial choices. Some of them have gone wrong and they've had to pay money for things that didn't ever end up happening. but ultimately the Glazers, the debt that has been put on them is the big overarching issue and that's why I think you all obviously, as we all are, finding it a difficult thing to see a way through because you're going to have to have some really skilled people in places all working in unison and that's difficult as well when you've also got this kind of alliance between Ratcliffe and the Glazers, you've kind of got jockeying for position, right?

27:16Laurie Whitwell: People are trying to protect their own status, I would say, in certain moments and then in terms of who comes into the club. And so I think, you know, does that really produce the best environment and the most sporting sense of excellence? Yeah, I'll leave that open to question. I mean, look at results on the pitch. So, yeah, I think that's why it will take, yeah, very skilled people getting a little bit lucky, to be honest, you know, getting recruitment right. But as we're seeing now, they obviously try to be modest in the transfer window based on the financial picture and it's producing this so far, it's obviously so concerning.

27:55I asked Carrick yesterday and I don't suppose he can speak completely openly in the position he was in, but at the end of the press conference, I sort of feel like he's got a unique insight into the problems that Manchester United have had in the post-Alex Ferguson era, living through a lot of the failings and a lot of the doom cycles, as we term it, as a player, first of all. And obviously going through the transition after Ferguson, then as a coach under Mourinho and Solskjaer, as a fan, as a season ticket holder, watching on powerlessly almost. And then now, of course, as the head coach. And that's the thing, Gary.

28:32No matter what, it comes back to this, doesn't it? Each time we get hope, each time there's a little bit of success or a trophy's won or you feel like there's something tangible building, it still seems to come back to this. Well, the problem is, Ian, that there is only so many people that can hold those at higher levels of the club accountable, right? If you look at the playing squad, they've got, in theory, each other and the coaching staff holding them accountable for poor performance. Whether that's happened or not, you can argue, but that's how the structure should work. The coaching staff have got the sporting leadership who are supposed to be holding them accountable.

29:10The sporting leadership have just got the ownership and who's holding the ownership accountable. Ultimately, nobody can, you know? So there is an inherent problem there we talk about and, you know, the mood among the fans yesterday was effectively like apportioning blame. Fans in the stadium can apportion blame all they want and they were vociferous in how they did that yesterday. But there is very little material impact that that can have unless and until some of those people, you know, unless and until the ownership decide that Jason Wilcox or Omar Barada are not the people they want in those jobs and the owners who decides when they go or if they go, them.

29:58So there is just very little and that is what creates this feeling of sort of hopelessness from those who want change is there are so little routes to to do anything about the situation and so we end up with more managers under pressure more players in and out the door and it's it's a cycle over and over again and I don't really know what sort of head coach can solve it no um we'll talk about who might be next obviously if if if I can't believe I'm saying it but if Manchester United and Michael Carrick part ways um obviously the week he's let. It is a long one. There's plenty of time before the match at Chelsea to sort things out.

30:41We'll talk about that in a moment. Just to reflect on a couple of things from yesterday Andy, Adrian's put here in the comments, as someone sat in the Stratford end yesterday I wasn't chanting Carrick's name as a call for him to stay but actually as a show of respect for a man who's achieved everything at the club. EDT says Carrick received support from fans because we can recognise he's been screwed over in EDT's words. just like many managers before in the Glazers and Ineos, are where the book stops and heads need to roll. Strong words, certainly, but the chance yesterday, strong, strong chance about Jim Ratcliffe, about the Glazers, obviously, Jason Wilcox as well.

31:20It's the first time I can remember his name being called out so overtly, certainly inside Old Trafford. And just the whole environment, really, in that second half, you could feel the anger. Quite a moment as Michael Carrick walks off the field, with his name being sung and the second he disappears into the tunnel. Very, very loud boos against the players. So, you know, like I said before, the fans made their point, didn't they? Yeah.

31:47Andy Mitten: It's heartbreaking, isn't it? That Manchester United have come to this. It's really sad. And I agree. It's deeply upsetting. I saw Laurie's video where you talk about that very instant shift from applauding Michael Carrick and I've just written a big piece on that. And people have, they've got the reasons ranging from, is this his send-off? It's not necessarily everybody saying we want him to carry on as manager. People have their reasons, but it was pretty emphatic. And the minute he went down the tunnel, it turned against the players. And I think a few players were blindsided by that. I think they thought they were more popular than they actually are.

32:28Andy Mitten: And they've been letting the manager down as well. Now they'll have their perspectives too. And some of them have spoken publicly. And you have Bruno Fernandes most recently calling out his manager. I personally disagreed with that. I can't see what good can come from calling your manager out in public and give you the captain of the team. You're the leader. You lead by example. I spoke to one Premier League player who said, one Premier League captain, in fact, former captain, not at Manchester United. and he said in a game you sense how the game's going you change it you do little things that's what a proper captain should do and bruno fernandez who's been a great manchester united player and a very good captain and i think this is a rare blot uh on him in my opinion and he might have a very different one he'd done no media since uh august when he won that individual award and he came out and said that to multiple rights holders.

33:28Andy Mitten: He volunteered to speak to the media and I can't see what good can come from that. If Manchester United are to get out of this mess that they're in, this massive lull, then Bruno Fernandes will probably be a very important part of that because you can't just sign a whole new team. He's not been playing well this season and he's a very respected figure within the dressing room. This isn't a youth team player going, come on lads, we can do this. He's the captain of Manchester United. He does have sway. And if Michael Tkarik is to stay, which seems improbable at the moment, or if someone else is going to come in, Bruno Fernandes has got to be, want to be part of a winning Manchester United team again.

34:10Andy Mitten: There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of desperation. I think United fans have actually been very patient and supportive towards managers. I think Ruben Amarin got a huge amount of support despite losing game after game. he had his name sung we'll bring the glory days back again I've spoken to David Moyes and Oli Gunnar Solskjaer Jose Mourinho they've got no problem with the support that they receive from Manchester United fans Louis van Gaal was a bit put out because fans booed him in the 2016 FA Cup final but overall his experience was a good one in his mind at Manchester United so the fans are really supportive I watch a lot of European football and beyond.

34:54Andy Mitten: And I see fans turning far more quickly at stadiums than Manchester United fans. But that outpouring, and it was, it came out of a deep sense of frustration. Manchester United have not won a Premier League game since August. No one expected a title challenge this year, but it's dreadful. And it's getting worse. I cannot see how this team are going to turn a corner right now. I know there are injuries, I know there's mitigation, I know key players are missing but there are also reasons for that and back to the first point of this answer, it's just a really sad upsetting situation. Yeah I think we can all agree with that.

35:35Right I'll come back to the chanting in a moment but obviously you've started talking about Bruno Fernandes there so you know we should have a proper conversation about this because so many people in emails since yesterday, DMs on social media, now in the comments on YouTube, Laurie as well. What does the future hold for Bruno Fernandes? Because again, you know, the crowd spoke very loud for me on Sunday. You had a few Bruno shouts when he came out to warm up. I think he only came out to warm up once actually in about the hour mark, maybe something like that. But there certainly wasn't any widespread chanting to get him on the field.

36:09There wasn't cheering of him. And then there's this strange story about, you know, we're at the point of analysing people's social media behaviour and so on. Some posts that he's liked today, some cryptic thing about whatever. Wasn't that cryptic? Or maybe it wasn't, but I mean, yeah, I don't really want to get into analysing people's social media, to be honest. But at the same time, it kind of feels important because of what happened on Sunday.

36:36Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, and obviously it's a way that players can still communicate, you know, even though I think maybe it's unliked now, but essentially it was, you know, there's only so much one person can do before they break, I guess. So clearly, if that is the case, that he's like that, it would ring true, wouldn't it, to all that he's done, I think, for the club in his years of barren, major silverware, obviously winning a couple of trophies. And he was instrumental, for example, in winning the FA Cup against Man City. But I think that the reaction on Sunday did speak to the general mood that you don't go outside the tent almost, you're criticising a manager, head coach, who's already sort of on the rope, so to speak.

37:23Laurie Whitwell: That felt unnecessary for a lot of people. So that's for all... And listen, he might be able to move beyond this and people embrace him once again as the weeks and months go on. But it certainly felt like a misstep from him in the eyes of a lot of fans. And that's why, I mean, he only went out to Wormat once. and that's why, I mean, was he ever going to come on the pitch? It feels like Carrick had made his decision. I don't think he was. Yeah, so he basically, you know, we did the story, didn't we, ahead of the team sheets dropping that he was going to be on the bench. I know that was kind of the expectation, but to sort of have it so definitively still I think was a shock to some people because of the importance that Bruno Fernandes has and because of the importance in that team in that moment for Michael Carrick.

38:07Laurie Whitwell: Like Michael Carrick would have obviously been overseeing a better chance of success if he'd picked Bruno Fernandes in that immediate game. I would say for all his bad form, but clearly the longer term view is you have to take a stand against something like that. You know, that's obviously what a manager would do if they were going to be manager for five years. That was a message to other people as well. You have to keep stuff in. You have to keep stuff together. And so, yeah, I guess he'd made his call to sort of say, you know, you've got to sit there and watch this and whatever unfolds. Obviously, it was a chaotic performance and strewn with mistakes.

38:39Laurie Whitwell: And that is alarming. But I think clearly he felt like he needed to make a point with Fernandes. Now, obviously, there's a wider question around Fernandes, in terms of his contract, which there's been talks over, but nothing's found a resolution yet. Is his future in doubt, Larry? Well, I mean, listen, his contract's up at the end of the season. United have got a plus one option. It does something get visited in January. I don't know. Obviously, his future is in doubt a little bit when he got that approach from Al-Halal, Saudi Arabia, and he's spoken very much in detail about, I think, the hurt that he felt when it seemed to him that the club were open to selling him.

39:17Laurie Whitwell: Now, obviously, then goes and has this season to break records for assists and wins the awards. But clearly, that must linger, right? It feels like he's in a state of disillusionment and whether that then clearly translates to performances on the pitch. and whether broadly that means that he then leaves the club. Yeah, I think it's a live topic, clearly, because of the way things are going right now.

39:54Right, let's bring it back to the chanting then, Keres, if we can. I know you've spoken on the Athletic FC podcast on this situation and the future for Manchester United Definitely, unquestionably, there is more conversation to be had about what happens next for United, about whether changing manager, head coach, changes anything, considering the situation and the problems at the club at the moment. And we will talk more about that on a future podcast, no question at all. But if you're just joining us, welcome along to the live stream. Talk the Devils on YouTube. Get involved in the comments. Lots of people already are.

40:27But yeah, Kerry, so's chance on Sunday. Very, very strong. Quite personal. against certain members of the hierarchy at Manchester United. Was it shocking to hear the strength of feeling inside the ground that people felt about those individuals? Jason Wilcox named, Sir Jim Radcliffe named, obviously the Glazers named, as they have been for a very long time as well, but very strong. Yeah, I think, you know, anti-ownership sentiment is absolutely nothing new at Manchester United, win or lose. That's been consistent for years. you know songs against the Glazers have been consistent whether United have been winning or losing at Old Trafford and in a way ends as well what was I felt different yesterday was that I felt it was the crowd really wanting to take the opportunity to make that point at what they felt could be like a watershed moment and a tipping point in terms of the future of the head coach they wanted to make it very clear what they made of the future of the club and what they felt needed to change.

41:31That was what stood out to me. I mean, it was a silly thing, right? But even something like chanting about, you know, where you can stick your new stadium just shows like the level of disillusionment with basically anything that the ownership have to say. I think that speaks volumes, you know, and it was constant. The only chance that I heard in that second half, I didn't really hear anything related to the game, to the players. The only songs I heard were the song for Michael Carrick and songs against the Glazers, against Jim Ratcliffe, against Jason Wilcox. I doubt that the lack of a specific song for Omar Barada was down to you know fans having particularly good feeling towards him but but more just not having had time to come up with one yet songs against the stadium like it was it was constant and it was a barrage and it felt like a real you know it was you that pointed out before the game I think Ian that no manager since Sir Alex Ferguson no Manchester United manager has had their last game in charge at Old Trafford obviously we now don't know if that was Carrick's last game in charge but I think a lot a lot of the crowd clearly thought that it would be and thought that it was by the second half and they thought well we've got a real opportunity here to to show what we think about the situation in a way that perhaps they didn't for Amirim, Ten Hag, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Solskjaer you know that was them wanting to to make their voices heard really.

43:02Yeah, the lowest moment for the managers has come at different grounds, not necessarily at Old Trafford. Although when you look back at some of the results that has been at Old Trafford over the years, you would think that the lowest moment would have come there. And it's not the first time that Manchester United fans have been very clear in how angry they are. But I can't remember a point where there was such variety to the chanting and all of them seemed just as impactful. It was so many different aspects of the way the club's being run right now that was being targeted. And it's not just the Glazer family now who are getting the ire from supporters.

43:38The Ineos hierarchy are as well. The plan for a new stadium even was targeted for the first time I've heard at Old Trafford so loud during that Bournemouth game. Again, it just underlines how upset people are with the way the club is being run right now.

43:54Andy Mitten: It's all come together at the same time and the chants reflect the deep disillusionment, also the distrust with the club. I think relations between the fans and the club are poor. There's a huge amount of work to be done there to re-establish some level of trust against a backdrop, which is extremely difficult. The wins play a big part in setting the mood as well and they're not coming. So everything's been brought into focus. I think that Ineos were given a fair wind and they were given support when they came in. But I also think it's fair now to make a judgment on their footballing decisions.

44:35Andy Mitten: Was it right to sack Eric Ten Hag when they did, for example? Was it right to sack Ruben Amarin? And people will argue this and fans do. Fans feel that various managers should have had more time. I think when you look at the managers who've been sacked, there's a case for all of them staying longer but it doesn't seem like that at the time and I think Eric Ten Hag made a point when he spoke to Laurie about it wasn't actually that far off a Champions League position and managers always accentuate the positives of what they've done and when I spoke to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer in an interview I did with him he's like look I didn't win a trophy but I should have had more time and it doesn't feel like that at the time because it feels like the club is spinning out of control and it feels like that now I actually think it's much much worse now because results are much worse and the season has not got going at all but it's not just results it's performances and the new signings have come in it's still early days on them I don't want to be harsh and judge players who've been at the club for five minutes I just don't think that's fair but it cannot be an easy environment for them to come in as well I hope Carlos Belaba is a fantastic player for Manchester United but it cannot be an easy environment for him to come in and there's pressure playing at Manchester United you're playing in front of 70 odd thousand people you're getting torn apart on social media and in the media there's always so much noise around the club and that makes it difficult for people who are working at the club as well I think everyone who works at that club wants to do well for Manchester United.

46:17Andy Mitten: Everyone. I don't think anyone goes into work in the morning and thinks, I want this football club to fail. But it is failing at the moment. And that's the big worry. And again, I can't see in the short term how Manchester United get out of this. Okay, so you bring a new manager in. What happens then? Do you get that 15, 20 game bounce where things start looking up and the manager feeds out a few of his secrets you know i stopped him eating chips all that sort of stuff i know we laugh at that now they weren't running enough yeah we've heard them all because we've been through this cycle so many times and i think there's a weariness because we've been through the cycle we've seen the film too many times it's this doom loop and there's no way out of it and when jim ratcliffe came in he gave fans hope he was putting money into the club not taking it out like the Glazers genuine investment into the training ground a target set rightly or wrongly to win the league in 2028 to coincide with Manchester United's 150th anniversary and that gave a focus and when you see that coming apart then you start to question well wait a minute best in class Dan Ashworth great bring it on and then he leaves after five minutes Dave Brailsford brilliant he did this and that and then he quietly leaves after five minutes.

47:37Andy Mitten: Ruben Hammering, okay, bring it on. We're open-minded to this. He's going to sort the football side and then he leaves after five minutes. And this is just a really bad look for the decision makers. And you compound all of those decisions and then you get what we've got today, a deeply troubled, weak-looking football club. And it is deeply, deeply concerning. Another aspect, Laurie, I suppose, you know, Michael Carrick's the one whose job is in focus right now. When you listen to supporters, it sounds like they think it shouldn't just be his job that's in question at the moment. How do you think that the hierarchy react to the way that fans were chanting about individuals like Jason Wilcox during that game?

48:20Because I just cannot remember a moment where there has been this much anger to this many different aspects. Okay, the Glazers and obviously the ownership and the debt and everything else that's gone with it has been a huge focus for people's frustration and anger over the years. And, you know, we've talked about that a lot on the show. But this is a different group of people now leading the football decisions at the football club. And I've seen so many stats and tables going around the last couple of days and all of them show that Manchester United are in a worse position on the field than they were when Enios began all of this.

48:57Laurie Whitwell: I think that's the big takeaway, right? Like, okay, we can say this is an isolated moment, But actually, you stretch it back, you know, two years for the sort of duration. Actually, it's coming up to three years, isn't it, when they kind of gained control. I know there's a little bit of time that they needed to kind of get their feet under the… February 2024, wasn't it? Yeah. Was the official, yeah. But it was Christmas Eve, wasn't it, when the… Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think that's a fair body of work to look at. and so when you look at the actual results, it's a significant drop on the post-Fergie years, not even the Fergie years.

49:33Laurie Whitwell: You're talking a period of time when it hasn't been the most glorious for United in the kind of wider scheme and it's even less than that that what United are producing right now. It's something like 30 odd percent win rate compared to 40 or something like that, maybe a little bit more, 50. It's a significant amount of, a significant drop, I should say and so that's why, I mean, I called it a bloodletting from the Stretford end mainly against Bournemouth because it was here, we're unleashed now. We are going for everybody because their point on Jason Wilcox in particular is he came in as technical director, then rose to director of football in the wake of Dan Ashworth leaving.

50:13Laurie Whitwell: Dan Ashworth, somebody who I think had shown a record at different clubs and England as well to building things slowly over time, which felt like exactly what United needed. and okay maybe this scale of club was a lot bigger than what he'd been used to before at West Brom and at Newcastle and Brighton but it felt like he had the credentials so for them United to pay all the money to get him wait for him and then for him to go it's like okay well the person that's taken over from him really needs to be top notch to I think to compensate for that and so people's question about Wilcox is that he was Man City's academy director for years and I think that brings its own sense of uncertainty around it.

50:55Laurie Whitwell: Because however successful you are, United and City are rivals. And there's always going to be a gap that you've got a bridge to then become accepted, I would say, by the United fan base. And so I think people did give him credit. And I'm not saying this is all about Jason Wilcox. There's obviously other people involved as well. Obviously Omar Barada came from City as well. Sir Jim Ratcliffe and the Glazers, absolutely. But if Wilcox is your key decision maker on football now, having previously been at Southampton for example, then coming to United, United fans will be like, what is going on here?

51:27Laurie Whitwell: We've already had Eric Senhag, Ruben Amrind, now Michael Carrick. If you're going to pick the next manager, we're going to give you our opinion on what we think that should, whether that should be the correct thing or not. And understandably, it must be very hurtful for them to have their name sung in that way and for getting even up close and personal. I'm told there were some issues getting booed outside of Old Trafford as they were leaving. But that is a little bit the game that you're in now with United, with the spotlight on you. If you're making decisions about the head coach in terms of Michael Carrick or whoever else coming in, there's going to be scrutiny.

52:03Laurie Whitwell: And it's a brutal world. But I think that's the understanding that I've got of where the fans are coming from. Because there's no place to hide, I would say. Another story that's reared its head today as well, Keris, by Matt Slater on The Athletic, is that Ineos have put Lausanne Sport up for sale, their Swiss Super League club that they've owned for nearly a decade, who I think are currently bottom of the Swiss league as well. Again, it doesn't reflect fantastically well, does it? But it's the ultimate question for United fans will be, what does that mean for Manchester United? But, you know, the Ineos teams generally have not been having a great time of it.

52:47You know, we keep hearing this thing of best in class at the start of Sir Jim Ratcliffe's sort of time in control of sporting operations. It was about developing a clear identity. it starts to feel at a certain point like you need to see some of the evidence behind the words, right? And to see them sort of pulling back from Lausanne is a really interesting development that Matt has clearly broken and that will continue to examine what that means for their sporting empire more widely and for Manchester United as well. But it just creates questions. It creates questions and it creates uncertainty and none of those things are what the club need at the moment.

53:28They need sort of a bit of leadership, really. And I think Michael Carrick, people will disagree with how he has tried to go about his leadership. There'll be a massive school of thought that says, you know, coming out and giving a press conference that refers more to the history of the club is unhelpful. You need to bring it into the present. I completely understand that. And it's a valid take. I don't think what you can accuse him of now is not trying to take authority, not trying to take ownership of the situation and lead. And he has tried to do that. And maybe he's been unsuccessful and maybe he won't keep his job.

54:05But he has tried and he's the only person that we're hearing from. I think Michael Carrick's press conference on Friday was fantastic. I think that is exactly the sort of passion that Manchester United fans wanted to see from him, from whoever is the head coach. I really, really dislike the way that people sneer at history being mentioned and some of the great figures in the club being used as reference points. I find it so frustrating when you listen to mostly non-Manchester United linked journalists, pundits, fans, no matter what. sort of oh they're talking about the history again well the history is really important it's actually a huge reason why Manchester United are a club of the statue that they are that people want to play for Manchester United want to manage Manchester United want to support Manchester United and I thought what Carrick did actually laid the foundations for the strength of feeling that he got at Old Trafford on Sunday because he really touched on how fans were feeling ahead of that game and yeah I don't think that the majority of the people like we've seen in the comments and like the people we've spoken to were singing Michael Carrick's name because they think he's doing a fantastic job as a Manchester United head coach at the moment.

55:18But there's a connection there. There's a link and there's a power to that. And if someone can actually harness that and drag everyone along with them and take Manchester United out at this moment, they won't do that by ignoring the history. They'll do that by harnessing the power of it and using it as reference points and inspiration for what comes next. And whoever the next person is, or if Michael Carrick continues, I really don't understand why you would ignore what is the envy of a lot of clubs around the world and some of the great figures that have been part of this football club and the path that they have trod.

55:53I personally think it should be an inspiration to people coming to Manchester United to step in their shoes and to try and drag this team and the club at the moment back to something even like the glory years and glory days that we've seen before. it feels a long way away right now but I'm sure at some point in the future we will get back there Can I just make a quick point there Ian as well?

56:16Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, of course And on that as well Carrick did also flip it forward he said we can't be entitled to think we win we're talking about principles here that are still abiding in football whatever kind of style you play it's about hard work, humility doing it together he was obviously sending a message to the players and also to the wider world but they still are relevant principles in modern football. And also this idea that he was reading off notes. Listen, I was in the press conference. I put my phone down. There was nothing on the desk. He was looking around. He was looking at us. He was looking at certain spots on the desk.

56:50Laurie Whitwell: But for my knowledge, I think it's absolutely rubbish that he was looking at notes. He was speaking. Obviously, he must have prepared something in his mind. And I think he was speaking from the heart as much as he could do. So, yeah. I mean, he didn't turn a page in his notes. And he spoke for five and a half minutes. so it must have been a pretty big piece of paper for him to be able to have all that written down.

57:08Andy Mitten: I think you can do that once in a while. Yes. Yeah, you can't do it every press conference. Yeah, you can't do it every week. And I think the timing was right to do it. I would have loved to have seen the desired response and that wasn't there. I think it's absolutely coming from the heart. He speaks as a fan. He'll continue going to games, you would assume, when he's no longer Manchester United manager. whenever that is. I love the fact that he talks about the match-going fans because I feel that they are maligned and ignored because the vast majority of Manchester United fans are not match-going fans.

57:45Andy Mitten: They don't go to the games. Nothing wrong with that. They watch the team play on a screen. And when I see decisions like switching games to unsociable hours and difficult locations or when I see him go into the away end in Como, I like that because he appreciates that it costs a huge amount of money and the effort that people are making. People couldn't get a ticket in Como. And I think he gets that part of it. But it will only take him so far. His footballing decisions have not always been correct. His tactical decisions have not. The flag went up in the Stratford End about standards. That was held back in reserve in case Manchester United were not winning the game.

58:27Andy Mitten: And then you've got these figures of Robson and Keane and Cantona and that's not the weight of the club's history which we should be proud of crashing down on the younger players or the newer players and it's not their fault that they're not as good as these legends of old because they were some of the best players in the world and even Brian Robson was the the most expensive player in Britain when he joined Manchester United even though the team wasn't as successful as the ones Cantona and Keane played under and I'm sure there's times where the current players are like oh no, not more legends telling us how great everything was.

59:05Andy Mitten: And there's so much of that about. And a lot of that doesn't help either. You know, because Manchester United is so, so big. But Man United being big is also attractive. That helps the club pay a lot of money to bring the players in. And the pressure should be a privilege, but it can be really damaging as well. Michael Carrick is, I think he's absolutely gutted at the state of the club is in. And there is some sneering and there are some people who say, look, you're just not good enough. And you look at the results and you can argue that, that a smarter coach would come in and change things. I think that's a fair conversation for people to have.

59:47Andy Mitten: But I also think there's an emotional attachment where, not just because of his status as a great player, but because people see honesty. and I don't hear any snide briefs from Michael Carrick. Some of them players have got PRs, they've got agents. They're looking after the player. They're not looking after the greater good of Manchester United. They're not really bothered about what happens with Manchester United in the future. I think Michael Carrick's decisions are based on what are good for Manchester United and maybe he's not good enough for Manchester United. He certainly was up until the summer and maybe he's been let down as well because the summer recruitment is looking increasingly underwhelming and i get the pressure on the sports director you change him but the new person who comes in is not going to be spending his own money if you get a new sports director there's still going to be budgets there

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1:03:06Laurie Whitwell: It's about how you spend it, isn't it, Andy? because if you look at the Andre Santos one, 50 million, I mean, I was reserved on making judgment on that and I agree it's an early stage in his career and he's 22, but it's difficult to see why that was the choice made right now.

1:03:21Andy Mitten: Yep. And the left back, I said it right from the start, you know, fans got excited, Lewis Hall or someone else. And then when nobody comes in, straight away, you're like, whoa. And then when Luke Shaw's injured, it just compounds it. I still think the centre forward as well. if you knew that Benjamin Cescou had the issues. The great man United team has had three or four centre forwards and the current one has got one who's injured. It is an absolutely valid opinion to have. And you're right on Santos. The players we've seen so far coming in, I spoke to, said it a few times, Juri Tielemann's manager at Belgium.

1:03:59Andy Mitten: He thinks he's a brilliant player. I'm sorry I've yet to see it in a Manchester United shirt. As a squad player, we find it's the fact

1:04:06Laurie Whitwell: that you're having to rely on him game after game after game. Yeah. And, you know...

1:04:11Andy Mitten: So the target was Elliot Anderson. He was a number one target. And Matias Fernandes, these were the main targets and they don't end up coming because there is a budget there. And the market ran away from Manchester United in the summer. And Manchester United then end up going for the second choice players and then getting second rate results like we're seeing now. and that is another problem for Manchester United. I don't know the way out of that. Spend your way out of it? It was Jim Ratcliffe, no less, who said there is a clear correlation between how much a football club spends and how much success there is.

1:04:48Andy Mitten: If Manchester United's wage bill is like the fifth in the league, well, don't expect Manchester United to be higher than that. I get the need for the cutbacks. I get the need that the club couldn't carry on losing£90 million a year, but the summer recruitment seems underwhelming from what we've seen so far and I hope that every one of them players proves me wrong and in a year's time Juri Tielemans is there picking up the Ballon d 'Or with Andre Santos as his number two and Balabra as his number three but it just seems so far-fetched at the moment from what we've seen Yeah, Juri two years into his five-year contract I mean that is incredible and hopefully things change for him.

1:05:34And Andre Santos as well, I interviewed him a couple of weeks ago and he just seemed so overjoyed to be at Manchester United and spoke so positively about being at the club and the opportunities being given and the sense of opportunity he's got being here. So for him, a young lad from Brazil, you really hope that it turns around for him and that he can play in a successful Manchester United team. Let's see. Right, that's for the future. What about for the here and now? What happens next, Laurie? Because obviously we started this by saying we all anticipated Michael Carrick losing his job after the game against Bournemouth with all the situation around the club and everything else that's gone with it.

1:06:12He is still in place at the moment. You mentioned that the expectation as we speak now is that he'll take training tomorrow. By the time we get to Chelsea, if it isn't Michael Carrick in charge, which way do you think the club will look?

1:06:26Laurie Whitwell: Well, the point that I made in a piece on The Athletic on Friday, I think still the case is that for some people at the club, Eddie Howe has the most compelling case. I think, you know, obviously getting Bournemouth promoted and keeping them in the Premier League and then Newcastle as well, getting them into the Champions League a couple of times and sort of showing some muscle in that competition. Now, I know that won't enamour a lot of people, to be quite frank. I can understand that. similar kind of personality to Carrick in some ways and also he won't from what I can understand as well be a free agent so to speak, even though he's not in Newcastle anymore Will he not?

1:07:10Laurie Whitwell: The terms of his contract from what I believe, because it was a case of him stepping away from Newcastle so they protect themselves by saying well we'll have compensation then if you then get a job, theoretically in the next 12 months Certainly it's a case that United would have to pay money. I'm not sure exactly how much. I believe in the region of a few million to get him. And so that, I think, is a consideration amidst all this as well. And I don't think, you know, I think he did pretty well in Newcastle in terms of getting a good salary. His assistant, Jason Tindall, as well. So I think there's a financial consideration in all this, as well as obviously the potential cost of dismissing Michael Carrick.

1:07:49Laurie Whitwell: So in a world where United are kind of withdrawing from going from a left-back, ironically Lewis Hall at Newcastle was obviously top of their list, or a striker, then changing managers in this way, or head coaches rather, comes at a cost. And so, yeah, I'm fascinated to see where that goes and whether that's part of the discussions as to why we haven't had an answer, a definitive answer at this moment. There's obviously other people that have been mentioned, Julian Nagelsmann. I think we've talked about him previously. Christopher Vell, who's the Director of Recruitment at United, I'm told likes him.

1:08:25Laurie Whitwell: But ultimately, Will Cox is the senior member of the hierarchy. So you'd think that his opinion would hold sway, even in this current climate. And so, yeah, I'm not sure on that one. I mean, yeah. And would United really go for a new IEMery, who would obviously cost a lot of money from Aston Villa, if you're not thinking that Eddie Howe, if you're still having that consideration over Eddie Howe. And I'm sure Emery's enjoying his life at Villa as well. Yeah, it feels like a complex one. And I think that's probably why you get in this sense, even with Carrick against Bournemouth, that what is the point necessarily in changing?

1:09:04Is there that sort of incredible candidate

1:09:07Laurie Whitwell: that everyone can get behind and think this could be a solution? Because they're going to encounter the same problems that Carrick has done. And so I think that's why it feels sort of, you know, difficult to see a way through for a lot of people. But yeah, let's see how these sort of days and weeks go, because clearly there's conversations going on to that end. Yeah, Unai Emery, I mean, the success he's had at Aston Villa has been brilliant. He is a really interesting character. He's a very difficult person to interview, probably the most difficult person I've ever interviewed because he is so strategic in what he wants to say and how he says it.

1:09:43and it is almost impossible to interrupt as well because he constructs his points in such a way. He's a fascinating character. But everything there is built for him. His fingerprints are over everything at that club. Even the media dealings I've had with Aston Villa, Unai's fingerprints are over absolutely everything that goes on there. And if he was to leave there and come to Manchester United, you'd think that a similar sort of environment would need to be created around him in order to enable him to be able to do what he's done at Aston Villa and I'm just not sure that the hierarchy would want that.

1:10:17Who knows?

1:10:18Andy Mitten: I think Emery's long been admired from... Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he has. ...inside Old Trafford. He's also used to working with a sports director because that's a normal model in Spain. He's a top coach. You're saying there's a chance, Andy? I think that at the end of last season, you had managers who would have taken the Manchester United job who ended up taking other jobs because Manchester United decided to give the job to Michael Carrick and I don't think there were many complaints from a lot of fans when that happened. There were from some. Emery was absolutely respected, as his history should be respected.

1:11:01Andy Mitten: I first met him in 2011. I've said on the pod before, I really didn't like the way some of the British media and looked down the noses at him because of his imperfect English when he was at Arsenal. He's a top, top coach. Virtually every single person born in Gikushkua turns out to be like an elite level football manager. And who else? Who can come in? Who is available? There's not a big list of people where all Manchester United fans would think that is the man. Luis Enrique is not going to leave PSG. He should do, but he's not going to and if you're watching this Lewis sat at home in Paris Manchester in November is the best place in the world to be and you know that should Michael Carrick leave his job and Manchester United be looking for a manager you know can Manchester United even appeal to the the best managers what do you think yeah I think that the Premier League is hugely attractive I get a large number of interviews because managers want to work in the Premier League Manchester United are the biggest club in the Premier League.

1:12:10Andy Mitten: I feel it appeals to the ego of any manager. Can I be the one to get this right? And they don't always appreciate how difficult it might be. They certainly don't appreciate how big the club is. You know, Luis Enrique in pre-season against PSG in Gothenburg, I think there were 33 ,000, 34 ,000 people there. 90 % were Manchester United fans. 90 % and he came out the ground and he said to someone why do you all support Manchester United and he's in charge of the best club in the world and the club is absolutely huge but it's floundering it's struggling it needs a clearer direction it needs more stability do you break the cycle of just okay Michael Carrick's going to be the man we're sticking with him does Omar Barad or Jason Wilcox say that in the dressing room whether you like it or not he's going to stay or the next man, this is going to be our manager.

1:13:07Andy Mitten: We're going to give him a set period of time. Does that work? It feels like everything has been tried and none of it has really worked. And the end result is we're in a worse situation today than we have been with Manchester United, certainly in my lifetime. What sort of character do you think Manchester United need next? Because like Laurie mentioned before, maybe Eddie Howe is more similar to the calm demeanour of Michael Carrick. Unai Emery, very, very intense, very different character to those two. We've got a lot of chat about Antonio Conte in the comments on YouTube. Julian Nagelsmann's been mentioned by quite a few.

1:13:49There's a winner, say Steve. We need a winner. Emery's a winner. Nagelsmann is a winner. There's Pochettino even being mentioned, which feels like going back to the past a little bit in terms of people that were linked with Manchester United at other points in the last 13 years or so. where do you think they should head next what what sort of character do you want that's the point that I was I was about to make you ask the question I wanted to answer which is that I think the character that Manchester United need is not necessarily the character that the executives at the club will want because I think they would probably like someone who is willing to work within the structure that they set and within the limits they set who might not challenge them on those limits too much I remember you know when I remember when Jim Ratcliffe gave an interview during Ruben Amrum's tenure and he sort of made this comment about oh you know I go in I have a coffee with Ruben and I tell him where it's going wrong and he tells me to f off I like him that didn't last like that's all very like chippy and funny early on I think that actually tells you quite a lot like I don't I don't know that how receptive the decision makers are at the club to criticism and to hearing you know a head coach who would think that on some matters such as recruitment they would know better you know we've heard Antonio Conte do that before which is why you know my guess were he to be appointed as manager of Manchester United and again Michael Carrick is still in the job as it stands were he to be appointed I think he could bring short-term success, I don't think it would be sustainable long-term just because of the clash of personalities.

1:15:30So then you come back to all these different figures. Unai Emery is a coach that I admire massively. And of all the names that have been spoken about, he is the one where I think, yeah, that's a coach I would love to see in charge of Manchester United. But again, he would want a huge amount of control. He would want the keys to the kingdom. He would want to build the team in his image I don't think the Manchester United hierarchy are prepared to let a coach do that so then where do you end up you end up at maybe a softer personality who is going to be a bit more conciliatory shall we say a bit more willing to work to others demands but are those the right demands you know so that I really don't know what the answer is because I don't I think that there are competing perhaps between what the team needs and what the club needs and what the hierarchy actually want to work with okay let's start to bring this to a close then because there's going to be more podcasts this week there's going to be more talk the devils this week no questions at all get yourselves subscribed to the channel on youtube if you're listening back to this podcast obviously get your notifications on if we ever go live in the future then you will be notified straight away and you can get involved in the conversation.

1:16:46We may well have another podcast tomorrow, depending on what happens, I suppose. Laurie, what does happen on Tuesday? It's not Wednesday, it's Monday. We've established that and tomorrow is Tuesday. So what happens on Tuesday, let alone Wednesday?

1:16:57Laurie Whitwell: I think I'm more confused about what day it is now than I was when you started that sentence. Yeah. Yeah, but thank you. I'm looking at my laptop. It says Monday, the 26th of October, nine o 'clock. We've been going for one hour, 13 minutes on this podcast. It's been handled all over the place. What happens? I don't know. I've actually got some breaking news, though, because Unai Emery has been pictured at the Ballon d 'Or wearing an Aston Villa suit. So, you know, read into that what you will. I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, as I say, as we expect Michael Carrick to take training, it would then feel strange, right, to then make a decision on his future after that point.

1:17:36Laurie Whitwell: I guess you can't really write anything off with this club because of what we've seen, you know, in the last couple of years with Erickson Haag, with Dan Ashworth. Is it fair on Carrick to take training tomorrow if he's not going to remain as manager for the Chelsea game? No, they need to clarify that, absolutely. There needs to be a clear... A few people asking it in the comments again. That's not fair at all, is it? How is that at all justifiable? Do you know what? He would do it. He would do whatever was asked. I can't see him throwing his toys out of the pram over it at all because I don't think that's the character that he is.

1:18:13But I agree that I don't think it's fair. What do you think, Andy?

1:18:17Andy Mitten: I think there needs to be some clarity over his position. I think he deserves to know if he's going to be leading the team against Chelsea to defeat them again with Aidan Heaven, a brilliant player, at the weekend. And I think the fans deserve to know as well. because it's a really, really difficult time. There are some positives. We should talk about the women's team, and we should also... Yeah, Darren Fletcher's team as well, you're going to say, aren't you? Darren Fletcher's young team are better than the Brazil team of 1970. Do you know they went to Liverpool the other night when we were in Como with a load of kids, and Liverpool were free up and out.

1:19:01Isn't that the point of the academy team?

1:19:03Andy Mitten: No, but like 15-year-olds rather than 18-year-olds. 3-0 down at half-time. I wouldn't say it was expected, but you're up against a stronger Liverpool team. Playing brilliantly, brilliant attitude. Went out in the second half, scored three goals, three all. Then at the weekend, Liverpool again, under-18s, beat them 6-3. So, yeah, I just want to give a couple of positives amid all the negatives. I didn't see the women's game, but I'm hearing really, really positive things about the women's side in recent weeks under their new manager. ever and good, good, good. If only the men's team can replicate this.

1:19:43Yeah, they're up to fourth in the WSL. There's a bit of a gap to the top three to the Champions League places, but it's certainly going better for the women's side than it was right at the start. We can't possibly pack anything more into this stream though on YouTube. Thank you so much everyone for your company throughout the last hour or so. Kerry, Sandy and Laurie, thank you for joining us as well. Obviously, we will be doing more as this week goes on Keep your eyes on The Athletic for the very latest on Michael Carrick's future, on the situation for Manchester United. Like I said before, make sure you are subscribed to our channel as well.

1:20:18Get those notifications on. And if we do go live, which I'm sure there's a fair chance we will, depending on what happens with the news coming out of Manchester United later this week, there will be a podcast either way, previewing Chelsea and whatever happens between now and then. We will reflect on things there too. but thank you thanks for joining us thank you everyone for being with us and let's see what the rest of the week holds we'll see on the next one take care bye

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