How important is this derby for Man United?

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1:25The Athletic FC.

1:42This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. We're back and coming up we preview the 199th Manchester derby. It's Manchester United against Manchester City head-to-head on Sunday at Old Trafford. We'll get into all the details of that. and also look back on a winning start to their Champions League campaign, beating Sabah 4-0. These three were there. We've got Laurie and Andy with us here in the studio in Manchester and Keris has joined us as well. Hello, Keris. You okay? Yeah, I'm good. I'm tired, but I'm good. Thank you. Can I just say, Keris took on the match piece for me after the game.

2:17Because you were like, oh, I'm doing Talk of the Devils at nine in the morning. I don't want to be doing the match piece after the game. Coming in hot here, isn't she? Invite her in. She's trying to back you up here. I appreciate the backing. How much sleep have you had? I've had a good seven hours. Like four, maybe. That's good work, that. Yeah, I slept like a baby. Anyway, we'll talk about Sabah a little bit later on. Like I say, these three were there as well. But we need to talk about the Manchester derby. It's always a huge game, unquestionably, United versus City. But the biggest Manchester derby this weekend, Andy, since?

2:52The last one. Michael Carrick's first game. Well, it's true. They're all big, aren't they? That was a big game. Michael Carrick came in. It was a huge game. And the result made it an even bigger game. So when Manchester United win derbies, the growing importance in my memory. So it is the biggest derby since the last one. But if United don't win, then it won't be. The biggest Manchester derby since? Can we go as far back as like 2012? What? Do you think? Okay, if you want to. Well, just because, right. So United haven't finished a buff city since Fergie left, have they? and I can appreciate that one was pretty devastating.

3:30I'm thinking about the 6-1, for example, which in the end basically won City the title, did it? Goal difference and all that. Sort of. I don't know why I've gone for a negative. I know, why is he looking frowning at me, like really disappointed? Should I go for the 2009 one, 4-3? Last minute, Owen winner. Why have you picked these two out? Just because... Because he's been writing about them recently and they're fresh in his memory. 2009, yes. True. Stay tuned for that one. But United haven't finished above City since Vergy left. is this an opportunity to do that? Okay, fine. It doesn't look that way from the league table right now, but with City new head coach, Moreski new players, will it definitely sustain the form that they're showing or the results they're getting?

4:08And obviously Carrick had a better record than City at the end of last season. So I don't know. Is there a chance? This is kind of why I feel like this is an important juncture, as important as that, because it could set off that kind of trajectory. Let's see. Maybe I'm giving it too much importance. What do you think, Gareth? Since 2016, probably, in terms of eras, like Laurie was saying, in terms of City going into a new era like 2016, it was massive, the Mourinho pep head-to-head, and it ended up being such a letdown from a Man United point of view. And I think that sort of continued, and the power balance sort of stayed the same from there, so I reckon probably that.

4:48But in terms of Man United, again, as Andy was saying, they stick out more when they win, but the cup final, if they wouldn't have even had the Europa League run and everything that kind of came with that, wouldn't have had really much to stand on from that, what was it, 22, 23, 24 season. Yeah, so that's a recent one. Biggest win in the last five years, that game. Yeah. The FA Cup final. I think it's, maybe even bigger. Maybe. You may be right, yeah. Massive. Again, I'm writing about it, so. Yeah. Trying to build up the importance. Eric Tenard did a number on them, big style. and it was not expected at all.

5:27No, that's the key part, I think. That's the key part that it was unexpected. And in some ways, the last derby, when Carrick took over and had like three days preparation and then it was probably the best United performance in a derby for a long time. Well, they absolutely should have won 3-0. I will die on that hill. Mason Mount's goal was not offside. Where's the proof, anyway? Should have seen him when Mason Mount came on last night. He was good. He was good. Well, you wouldn't have never said if he was bad, would you? Okay. He was excited. Can I throw another one in there? Yeah. The Manchester Derby under Ruben Ameren, where Ahmad scores the last-minute winner.

6:06But obviously that's when Rashford gets dropped for the first time. Now here we are again. Rashford was getting applauded by the Stretford M when he was warming up last night. It was quite noticeable. Was his song sung last night? A bit, wasn't it? Second half. A bit of a moment, that. 50 people, all members of the Rashford family, giving it some fair play. It was sung a bit. Yeah, okay. But it'd be interesting, won't it? If he starts. He'll start. I think he'll start, won't he? He didn't play the whole game, right? So, unleash. Let's see how it goes. That could be a pivotal moment. And so, therefore, on reflection, the one two years ago has a bit of importance.

6:42I go with Keris because I think that when you've got two new managers, and I know Carrick's had a derby, but he wasn't the permanent manager at that point. This is his first Manchester derby. as the permanent United boss and you've got Enzo Maresco at the other side. It's the first time United are facing City and it's not Pep Guardiola in the opposition dugout for a decade. It just feels like there is a way that this game and this result and the way that you play in this match could set paths for the future. That's why to me it feels like such an important one. You're nodding enthusiastically.

7:12Just on that 16, I've touched on that in the past. In 38 years of covering Man United, I've never had as much international media attention as in journalists from different countries ringing me as you know, you do the fanzine, whatever. Apart from that game, that game, that September 16, Guardiola against Mourinho, massive, massive build-up. All the top French, Italian, Spanish, German papers were sending their top correspondents. I'm not sure they could afford to now. But it's not Pep versus Jose. I was going to say this, it's actually two people that have worked their way up from within the club.

7:51I remember being at Lee Sports Village and seeing Endemorescu, Man City's under-21s manager, I think, at the time, and thinking he was very demonstrative. Development squad, whatever age that is. He looks like Pep, doesn't he? His personality was like, well, I thought it was. I saw the highlights of the Porto game. I was like, oh, Pep. Oh, no, wait, what? My brain had a malfunction. Well, he started doing a bit of Pep-like chatting to players on the pitch. Ah, good point. I don't remember seeing him doing any of this when I was at Chelsea, I think it is really interesting. He's been brought in to be as close a successor to Pep Guardiola as possible.

8:25He's a good manager in his own right, but he's very much from the Guardiola school. And that is the point of him, is to kind of continue the succession as close as possible. So there's that expectation on him. I think the difference from January is there's now an expectation on Carrick. January was a complete free hit. No one was expecting anything. now he's got really high expectations on him that's the that's the weight of it going into this one and it kind of decides I think as well in a way whether this has been a good start or an underwhelming start or even actually a bad start you get battered in the derby it's gonna be quite hard to sell that United have had a decent start to the season even because you've covered Enzo for Chelsea that's what you're touching on there for the Athletic and what was your impression of him then could you see him coming up to Manchester could you see this developing well i mean obviously i remember being in december sort of time when david wrote the story that city were kind of considering him if guardiola left and obviously it was really like i remember when he did leave and it was kind of really murky at the time it was like mutual agreement whatever and you're sort of like okay what's happened here and then it's obviously all come out later down the line and i mean i wouldn't want to get in an argument with a lawyer for Chelsea or a lawyer for Manchester City and they clearly had quite a lot of them.

9:38There's a few reasons why he wouldn't for City. What was he like on a human level? Maresca. In media, he's pretty, I'd say he's pretty guarded. He's kind of combative. He's not afraid to speak his mind, not to the same level as someone like Ruben Amrum. If he doesn't like a question, he's not afraid to sort of show it on his face. But he'd have a little bit of a, he'd have a little bit of a laugh and a joke sometimes so he was in a good mood he's but he was pretty you know you could tell towards the the end of his tenure i think that he was getting a little bit sort of under pressure and a little bit fed up obviously there was stuff going on behind the scenes but the results weren't great either so yeah he's a he's an interesting character i haven't followed his media at city that closely yeah um yeah i i think from what caris is saying it felt very much like business with him to be honest um there was a little bit of personality there was a little bit of um the charm being on because he's just starting in a new role and obviously getting to know new uh new journalists and new members of the the media but i feel like with him going back to what you were saying before it's almost just about continuing guardiola's work it's it's sort of evolution not revolution that said i didn't expect them to spend the amount of money that they did across the summer I don't know if they properly thought that Rodri would push through and leave.

11:01And I think the money that they spent in midfield is a reflection on the hole that him and Bernardo Silva have left in that group. So I think the job for Maresco has definitely been made harder by the fact that the midfield looks completely different, although it does help when you can throw 300 plus million at the issue. And I wonder actually if those three all start in midfield together at the weekend as well. and Enzo Fernandes is more of the 10 position and Bouadi and Elliot Anderson are deeper in midfield. We'll talk a bit more about how City shape up for this maybe in a moment, but just focusing on United's prep for this.

11:34So there's a bit of a blueprint, isn't there? If we're saying that Maresca's City is similar to Guardiola's City, and there are differences, definitely, do they go with the formula that they went with or as near to that they can last season? I think it's a good formula really, isn't it? because it absolutely destroyed City. They had no answer. And okay, they had a weaker back line, didn't they, in that game. Yeah, Max Alain. There we go. I'm going to say, can you tell me the lad that's... Where is he now? On loan somewhere, I think. We sold him for 200 million to watch them. Yeah, it was Alain and Kusinov centre-backs because Diaz and Vardy all were out injured.

12:10I don't think Gay was through the door at that moment. I think that's right. But they obviously... It was the running in behind, wasn't it? It was the sort of high line that City were trying to still play. So I guess they've been playing that still, right? Well, they've been pushed back quite a bit. Yeah, well, Coventry had a few chances. I mean, so Coventry's Taiwo Awani, didn't he? He kind of leapt onto a loose pass all the way through. Should have scored. You've got Donnarumma looks a bit shaky, you know. And that's interesting when he was a player that a lot of people were saying United need to go and get in that summer transfer window.

12:42But then it was never in the market for him, really, because of the transfer fee. then also the wages were insane for what they were going to bring in. Obviously, Senna Lamond's a lot lower cost, and I think we can agree that I think that choice was a good one, really, for the calmness that he's brought, the trajectory that he's on. So that would be interesting if they can put him under a bit of pressure, maybe at corners. Okay, United's height at set pieces has been diminished by Casemiro's exit, but still there's that element of him not necessarily coming and claiming stuff, and then, as we saw against Coventry, the ball at his feet.

13:12So I don't know. I kind of feel like there are vulnerabilities there with City. It's just, can United sustain enough attacks? Can they choose the right moment, the right passing, as they did against City in Carrick's first game in this game again? Because City obviously will, you feel like they'll get chances, more chances than they did. It was remarkable how few chances they had. One shot on target. Yeah. Surely, you know, Haaland looks a bit more in the mood. I think Elliot Anderson will have a really interesting game because he has been getting on the ball. he's been passing it a lot for City.

13:43So if United can kind of disrupt him... Do you think he'll get a bit of stick? Yeah, probably, yeah. You should have signed for a big club. You know, that'll definitely come out, won't it? You know, anything else, Andy, you reckon? Are you going to start any chance? I might do, yeah. Give it to all of them. I find... I'm watching them through... United look to Semenyo, for example, and Anderson. I had a look at Ryan Aignori. I wanted him to come because I like him as a person. for a whatever however many million obligation it would have been I wasn't bothered about the money but I was going to go to Algeria and his dad was going to help me go and then he signed for City so he ceased to exist and he's got a trip in it that's why you wanted him I did I'm just being honest like Mureska I interviewed Mureska and he was at Sevilla and he was really interesting and he talked about playing for West Brom and then he joined City and he ceased to exist for the Manuel Pellegrini I knew him when he was at Villarreal and then he just ceased to exist and then had to rebuild the relationship that sounds so sinister ceased to exist yeah he did United looked at Buwadi, you know.

14:41Their view was he could be incredibly talented, but we're not going to blow the summer budget on an 18-year-old. And there is sense to that view. This cuts to the heart of it, though, doesn't it? City can go out and their midfield rebuild is Elliot Anderson, Buwadi, Fernandes. I mean, they've spent more than£100 million on two players this summer. United have never spent more than£100 million on a player. Buwadi was close as well. Yeah, Buwadi was up there as well. And I think, what were you saying earlier? But the net spend on those three players. Well, the comparison, City spent£441 million, or estimated that, in the summer.

15:19Manchester United spent£155 million, so less than half. But the net spend figures, which is what you have all your blue mates constantly telling you about, City's net spend,£123 million, estimated. United,£103 million. so in reality they actually spent more than double but the difference in the net spend is 20 million quid wow you know i tried to sign ryan uh turkey as well twice when he was young but he said i'm staying at leon and then city signed him for like 42 quid because that's what they do that's come out in the documentary hasn't it as well that little area where they said they looked into his personality and they'd had some like because there'd been reports that they've been being difficult to manage but they'd kind of gone away and he's an interesting character yeah top player very skilful.

16:07He came up to me at the PFA Awards, shook my hand, said, hello, how you doing? Ryan Cherky? Yeah. How does he know you? Well, I don't know. I don't think, I was lingering in an area that he probably thought was important people and mistook me for one of them. He looks sharp though, to be fair, you know, he looks better than me, I have to say. He'll get a stick because it'll go back to the Lyon game. The Lyon game, that'll be fun. You should get a stick. Don't come out against a mighty man United and not expect to get a stick. You mean a bit too complimentary for You're the one who said he was a good player.

16:38Well, he is a good player. I thought he shared his skills with him. He did not cease to exist when he went to City. Sergio Aguero once did, I saw him at an awards ceremony, like voted for by the fans. And they were like, we took like 40 down to London, United we stand. And City had like none. And like Aguero, he'd come up and he was dead polite and he was really nice. And I just felt a bit guilty actually. But he was obviously... Again, did he know who you were? No, I don't think he did. I think he knew we were all united. He thought he'd head you off at the pass. He just read the room and thought, these lads are the top dogs.

17:14And he read the room. I met some City mates the other day, proper blues. They go everywhere. They always have done. I really like them. And I remember when my dad died, we did that bike ride. The first donation we had was from the Man City Supporters Club in Ermston, 200 quid. I'll never forget stuff like that. So they were asking me about Barcelona. Where should we go with air in December? They're not going to watch this, are they? I'm just going to make up restaurants, hotels, incorrect travel links. Remember Richarlison did it with Liverpool fans, 2009. I'm in that mood. If City win, I'm just going to be blagging them that you should go to this hotel and they'll get there and it'll come on top.

17:54Can we bring it back to the spending chair? Sorry, is that possible? I mean, that lays bare the challenge for United, doesn't it? That lays bare the issue that the club has got And when these two teams go head to head, it lays bare the difference in the ownership, the situation, the entire picture for these two clubs, doesn't it? There's so many different strands to this. So let's not neglect, let's not forget what Keresy's mentioned in terms of the lawyers. There's obviously an ongoing case. There's perhaps 115 reasons why. Is it 116 or is it 115? I think it's 130 odd actually, because then I did a few more, but it's been years.

18:31Where is the outcome here? like justice delayed justice denied really in my you know humble opinion i'm just sort of parroting much more intelligent people than that but um so there's that that's going on in the background where you've got a different ownership structure that united always were complaining they can't compete with because they've got limitless funds basically and and different ways allegedly of you know uh facilitating that into transfers and so then that's one thing then there's actually the point of City have got better players to sell, probably. You know, they've been winning league titles.

19:07United haven't been. There's a slight interesting aspect, though. You know, is Sevilla really worth£85 million? Like, I don't think so. So why is that happening? You know, there's obviously... You've got to consider that that's Tottenham, though. Yeah, Tottenham have obviously spent crazily... And the amount of money that they have shown they're willing to spend on players. But it does feel like there's a kind of a nudge and a wink to, you know, So certain calculations that go on when it comes to squad cost ratio now. Allegedly. Allegedly, all the caveats. But something's obviously going on. There's certain deals that happen because of those regulations.

19:40That's absolutely the case. And what about United's situation? And then United. So the players, could they sell better? That's been a big accusation this summer. Possibly. But then the players that they're selling, the reasons for them wanting to go, they're not in a position of strength to United necessarily. So I think, for example, Raddick Vitek is probably the biggest sale, or at least... Of this summer? Yeah, if you're not counting Hoyland, so in last year's accounts, isn't he? So I think... I mean, even Greenwood, the sell-on for Greenwood is probably more than the base fee for Vitek. But£7 million plus£7 million, if Middlesbrough get promoted, whatever.

20:20He's a player that hadn't actually played for United in the Premier League. so I accept that there's some players like Mamouche, like Savinho that you're thinking they flopped in the Premier League Zerks is probably the equivalent right like he didn't have a great time in the Premier League so far but United bought him for 40 million something like that and is there the market out there for him? Clearly they tried a lot in Italy Ugarte is the same I mean obviously the knee injury took out that conversation completely in the summer but it's someone you've spent a decent chunk on are you really going to get that back for him if you sell him?

20:52It's because they're not winning titles. If they'd been in the conversation for the title hunt, I mean, third, to be fair, that kind of elevates the level of thinking around it. But it's a fair criticism, a fair scrutiny to apply to the club because selling has to be better, really. Can I actually throw another name in there? Can I throw Andrean Arna in? Because I find it absolutely mad that he's gone back on loan to a club that clearly is a starting goalkeeper and they want to keep him and so they've kept him on loan and United have still not recouped. Obviously the wages coming off the books is mad but they spent what£51 million on him.

21:24He was one of the top keepers in Europe when they bought him. Yeah, and it looks increasingly... Yeah, and it increasingly is looking like it's really hard for you to get that money back because you're just sending these players out on loan and that's an element of not wanting to have the bloated squad and having the sort of players training separately who aren't in the plans and all that stuff that we've seen. And I think that's a better approach to the squad. But not managing to get any of the feedback for someone like Anana so far, he's got, what, two years left on his contract, something like that.

21:52like it's that's the sort of sale that I would think another club might you know bite the bullet take take a bit of a loss but he's off the books and you know you've got a bit of a feedback from that's actually the the non-sale that wound me up the most this summer I think yeah I mean Rashford as well the deal agreed with Barcelona was 24 million quid was it something like that 30 million euros 30 million euros and then there was that secondary clause where he could have gone for about£40 million. You look at the fees that have been paid for some of the other wingers, even in this conversation, that looks really cheap.

22:27That's not a top-level price for a player of his... But the wages, it's all about wages. For wages, yeah. That's what I was coming on to, yeah. So United need to be much better at selling, as we've consistently said, but are selling from a position of relative weakness because they've paid high fees and crucially given high wages to players. There's very, very few clubs outside of the Premier League bubble who are going to be able to afford those wages. And if you've watched Andre and Arna and you're in that Premier League bubble, you ain't signing him. So it's really difficult. So you end up going to secondary cash-rich markets where there's maybe tax incentives like Turkey, who can pay a lot.

23:03And that's the situation United are in. And how does it get better? And City have been successful partly because they sorted their academy out big time. They chipped into United's local dominance and it's a very tough area to recruit. because you've also got Liverpool and Everton and you've got Chelsea as well. I think United have been much more aggressive in the youth recruitment market. I think they know what they're doing as well and hopefully this will bear fruit in a couple of years but it's difficult to move on players who earn so much money. The other thing is the Glazer family, isn't it?

23:35And their ownership of the club because if you compare the two ownership structures going back to when United's takeover took place or when City's takeover took place, the last set of figures I saw, it's almost an equivalent amount that City's owners have put into their club and that United's owners have taken out through dividends or obviously the massive interest payments over the years? It's one of the most depressing statistics and graphics in football. You can almost do the graphic as like a weighing scale, what one's taken out and what one's put in. I thought it was interesting on Thursday night that the fans were still singing against the Blazers.

24:10Straight after United scored. Yeah, because as we have consistently said, that that ownership model shouldn't have been allowed to happen but it does happen it's brought no benefit at all to manchester united and the interest costs lumber manchester united and make it more difficult manchester city do not have that i remember historically um speaking to an employee of manchester united and he just despaired at what he had to produce compared to what manchester city could produce because he felt that he was working for a conventional business where costs had to be watched and he didn't feel that at manchester city's counterparts had the same pressures the most normal companies have by the way wasn't a criticism of manchester united so two different ways of operating and the pendulum swung united were top dogs in the world in 2008 city got the takeover and spent and spent and spent and um you know they've had they've had success on the pitch i still get surprised when i see someone like elliot anderson in a city shirt when he was a kid.

25:11Why would you grow up in Newcastle and support City? Did he actually support City or did he just have a shirt? Well, he had the City shirt. Actually, he probably made a load, sold none of them. So he's brought it for a quid in Walls End. That's probably the truth to it. And he's got lucky going, Mum, remember when you got me a shirt for one quid? That's going to get me out of a hole now. You've got, just to finish the point, I suppose, but you've got one club that have got rocket boosters behind him and one club that have had an anchor behind them for like 25 years. To the wages point, they are trying to change that.

25:43They're obviously offering lower wages than they have historically. And that's why, for example, Mateus Fernandes goes to Tottenham. Not a holy rat why, but that's part of it in terms of offering salaries. And also they're changing the way that if you have contributed, you know how it used to basically be 25 % cut. Yeah, we've not talked about this. Good point. Yeah. So now they've altered it. It's been, I think, a couple of years ago. It's basically, you only get the benefit of being in the Champions League as a player if you played enough matches that season that they qualified. So that's, again, more of an incentivised deal.

26:16Good, smart. Yeah. Good. So therefore, it should make, if you've not put like Onan, if you've not featured at all, he's not part of this new way of doing things. He shouldn't be. But if you haven't contributed, it should therefore be easier to sell you because you're not being boosted. You haven't got a 25 % boosted, yeah. Which, obviously, across the board, everyone in the squad, if Manchester United were in the Champions League, the senior players would get a 25 % boost. So, yeah, it's quite an important change that. We haven't talked about that.

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28:23Always.

28:37right let's bring it back to the game on Sunday Keris how do you think Manchester United are going to line up I think the back four remains broadly as we expect Luke Shaw obviously didn't feature last night wasn't in the squad last night I think the impression is that that was a bit precautionary and I mean I don't think it was a game he was ever going to play in right I think had he been on the bench then there wouldn't necessarily have been a concern it's more the fact he wasn't in the squad full stop but that was actually there which was interesting yeah but but him not being you know that leaves room for harry amas who then comes on and plays so i think probably sure comes back in martinez maguire i would say dallo yeah um the midfield is the interesting one i think kobi main who has to has to stay in there and probably has to stay in the six where he's been so good pulling the strings yuri telemans is the the slight question mark for me just over like the athleticism against city's midfield i think he's every game that i watch telemans i feel like he is improving but i'm still it's that athletic side of the game which we knew was not like his major strength and we knew that sort of technical things and creativity was more of his strength i feel like if belieber was fit you might put him in yeah if he's fit how far is he off coming back i thought he was quite close yeah there was the idea The idea was like pre-international break potentially, wasn't it?

29:56But I don't think we've heard anything suggesting it would be this weekend. And then... But you never know Maresco if you're watching this. And then, like, I think Rashford starts, to be honest. On the left, I think the crowd will get behind him. I think he will be bang up for it. And I also think he's earned the starting place. I didn't think Mateus Cunha had a particularly good game last night, which, you know, it's an interesting one. And yeah, sorry, that's probably an important caveat to put in there. But broadly, I thought, you know, that combination of him and Dorgou, with Dorgou at left back, looked a little bit sort of, the understanding wasn't there in the same way that it obviously is for sure in Rashford, and you've written about that.

30:39And I hope Benjamin Sesko is able to start. I think he'll be really, really important in terms of unsettling the back line, pushing them, staying high, running in behind, as we were talking about from January, like that formula. I think that's how you get at them. And I think he'll be really key. I just can't see like a sort of false nine and a load of rotations as pretty as it is. I just don't think it's going to have the impact that United need. Simplicity actually was one of the key things in the approach against City last time. And I think a lot of that came from the fact that, like we said before, Carrick had been in position for about three days coming into that game.

31:16But square pegs in square holes again and Brighton and Boomer back on the right-hand side, the transition pace there, Rashford on the left-hand side, a centre-forward through the middle. A bit of concern about Rashford in terms of going the other way. So there has been signs so far that he's willing, much more than maybe in the past. That was the criticism of him to track people and to fight back and to get the ball back. But he's going to have to do that even more so. And the discipline that they showed in the derby last year at home as well, the distances between, it was quite a compact midfield at times and Dorgie was playing in that position, tucking in.

31:51so there's maybe something to consider there. But yeah, Sesco, he has to play, doesn't he? I think so, yeah. I think that's why he came off, right? May was his last start. He didn't play at all in pre-season, which surprised us. We did speak to Sesco after the game, so there's some quotes that are a little bit embargoed, but you get a sense of what was going on there. When can people expect that? Sunday morning. So, you know, fresh on your athletic app, before the derby, get ready for it. Let's read what Benjamin Sesco has to say. He's focused, though, isn't he? focused smart didn't waste his words uh but gave us a bit of an insight into what had been going on and it made you feel okay i understand the the pause shall we say over the summer and then you know he's had these moments off the bench and i mean he's you know two goals now a goal every 58.5 minutes uh you know i know it's a very small sample size but it was the calculator i got the calculator out last night uh but it did pick up really from where he left off but you know i think it was seven goals in that stretch under Carrick, so a goal every 85 minutes.

32:54Pretty good going. And so I do feel like surely he has to start to kind of occupy the defenders, everything that's character said there. And I'd like to, I think Shaw and Rashford, they know how it is to play against Man City. I take what you're saying there. Couldn't you have lasted in the full game? I think perhaps as an indication, you've had the full complement there. you're going to be off the bench and he could really be if it happens I think he could be a really interesting impact sort of off the bench he was last season because he didn't start the derby last time either yeah okay yeah yeah good point and so I mean that connection between Sean Rashford as Coach said I wrote on it this week it's actually and I hope this doesn't bore you too much and fair enough people are saying that listen it's not a great opposition I'm giving it the big preamble because I'm trying to like caveat it so much that I don't get you're waiting for the comments aren't you basically thank you again everyone for getting involved last time.

33:48Two promoted teams, you know, what are you talking about? But Shaw and Rashford have passed to each other 57 times. Only Tillemans and Fernandes have had more passes between them 59 times. They've been on the pitch a lot longer in the Premier League, about 50 odd minutes or something. So clearly, straight from the off, these guys are kind of like, no, this is a good attack for us. And progressive passes as well, Rashford putting in Shaw five times, Shaw putting in Rashford five times. These are kind of at the top of the Premier League so far. And again, small sample size, weaker teams. You're getting away with this because Carl's not sat next to you shouting at you.

34:18I'm just taking the bat on her. Ten matches in, he said. Yeah, good point. I'm using the other stuff from two years ago as well. I'm picking it up from those other 213 appearances before the season together. I've done my research this time. Sure. So I feel like that could unlock something. It's going to need understanding. It's going to need trust. It's going to need the fluidity that we saw against Sabah in those moments. I know it wasn't perfect, but there was one, two touches. is there was players combining five in the first goal, seven in the second goal, five in the third goal. So I feel like there is, if you get that going against City, that will cause them trouble.

34:55What about City, Andy? What do you think they'll do? Why are you asking me about City? I don't care about City. I was going to talk about how I'm having Cesc. Anyway, they tried to sign Gradial. They tried to sign Haaland. They tried to sign Haaland. This is all true, actually. Kuzinov. I think they had a look at Kuzinov when he was coming through. There's loads of former City. Go on, talk up Cesc and then we'll do City in a moment. Can't give away too much because it's embargoed, but I am having him as a player. I think there's a good way to go. And he definitely gives Manchester United a different dimension with that physical threat.

35:27And he scores goals. That's all he's going to be judged by. I thought he had a very encouraging first season, but was pretty bold to move Hoyland on and go for him. I am liking him, really liking him. And we also spoke to Martinez after the game. he's another player who I think will start. One of the journalists who's a good lad, he's got a very strong regional accent. He went straight in with the first question and Martinez said, you what, mate? And I'm very going to say that. Mate, I'm English. It wasn't me, by the way. I'm English and I don't know what you've said there. I said, the Falklands are British, mate.

35:58Sorry, where were we? And we had a good chat with Martinez, who I think has been playing well. And what was it, Ipswich? I thought he played well, but he made the mistake at the end. So when you say he played well, Yeah, but he made that mistake. Yeah, but he still played well. And I think he had a great game against City last year because it was a bit of a hoo-ha wasn't around him. So it'll go with experience. Laurie did a good tweet last night, first one he's ever done, where he talks about the luxury of being able to bring players off and on of rest players last night. It's a really inventive tweet that wasn't.

36:32Nobody else was thinking that. But it was perfect. Thursday was really perfect because you could bring the players on, you could take the players off you got the goals there was no injuries there was the clean sheets and I think that is intelligent squad management Marcus Rashford did you see this stuff this week where Pep Guardiola had said to Ryan Giggs that Rashford was the only Man United player he would take I got told that in November 17 and that was genuine the only player he would take Is this when you said that Pep Guardiola was considering swapping Manchester City for Manchester United or was that a bit?

37:09No We might have come to United in the future, Pat, won't we? Just to wind City fans up. Once Michael Carrick's won the European Cup. Rashford has won derbies in the past. Laurie's quite right. He's won a lot of them. I once got on a plane to Barcelona the day after Rashford had scored the only goal at City and all City's main directors were at the front. It was like an EasyJet or a Ryanair. That's his first Manchester derby, that. I just walked through it, pretending to be on my phone, going, yeah, Rashford smashed them, mate. Manchester's buzzing. everyone in Manchester you're not an ember from Manchester mate you're all living Stockport or Barcelona there we go we love we love these Manchester yeah I can tell I can tell it's got your juices flowing can we talk about City then Keris and I want to try and tap into what you know of Maresca's Chelsea actually to give us an idea so I feel like Ryan Cherky and Phil Foden if they are going to play this game will be used in a wide position I feel like he's going to really stodge up and strengthen that midfield.

38:11Is there evidence of that from his time at Chelsea or how do you read how he'll approach this? Yep, I think the two main criticisms that Chelsea fans often had of Maresca in my time covering them, and this sort of speaks to how he wants to play, was it's very possession-based and it's very patient, but sometimes without the end product. And they felt that players like, for instance, Cole Palmer, weren't having the freedom to go and express themselves and do what they want to do. So if you sort of translate that onto City, someone like Ryan Cherky, someone like Phil Foden, those are the sort of players that City fans will want to see kind of unlocked and kind of given that freedom.

38:50And then I think you're absolutely right to point to the midfield. That is an area that they'll probably look at and think, you know, we can control that and we can try and really, you know, United have been trying to do all these nice little combinations through the middle, in and out to the wings, they'll really think that they can try and stodge that up and have sort of, they tend to have a holding midfielder dropping into the back line to build up and then you have a lot of bodies in midfield, you have a full back overlapping. So there's a lot, they will try and control the game. Sounds a really obvious point, right?

39:21That's what we're used to from... Well, we're used to them controlling it with the ball, but I wonder if that midfield also points to an intention to control it without the ball as well, because you have got a lot of physicality in those three if that's what he goes with yeah absolutely I think Enzo Fernandes sometimes out of he's very kind of athletic he's very physical out of possession there was sometimes a few question marks over like is his reading of the game necessarily quite right does he add enough to the team out of possession I think that'll be a really interesting dynamic to see how that actually translates at City but I think when United have the ball the thing that they need to be looking at is sort of how they can exploit just City adjusting to the way that Maresca wants to play.

40:02They're adjusting pretty well so far, but it's not the most convincing. And there's little kind of teething problems that teams would exploit even after he'd been at Chelsea for a year and a half. Things like kind of the full backs pushing high and the spaces that exploits in the channels. That's why I think Cesc will be so important trying to play a high line. Again, the same thing. So there's definitely weaknesses in the way that Maresca wants to play that teams can exploit. It's just that Chelsea under him could be quite frustrating. They could be quite frustrating for everyone in the stadium, to be fair.

40:36Even the whole fans. Yeah, sometimes it would look like not a lot was happening and then eventually you'd have a goal because they had that individual quality. He likes these very direct, very fast physical wingers as well. So, yeah, he's an interesting one. And obviously I haven't, you know, there's adjustments to the way that he will play at City. But those are sort of the weaknesses that kind of stood out to me. Yeah, I think when we look at City's team sheet before the game on Sunday, for those who want to, Andy, before you chip in, I think it will be revealing about Mareska's mindset for this game.

41:10When you see who's in the middle of midfield, if it is those three more physical players rather than a Cherky or a Foden. And when you see who the fullbacks are. I think Nico O 'Reilly is a doubt. He got pulled out of the warm-up against Coventry last week with an injury, missed the game against Porto in midweek, wasn't involved. He's obviously a lot more of an attacking full-back than if it's Josko Vardio that's there. And even on the other side, Mateus Nunez was backing the team for the Porto game, but Kusunov has played there a lot at the start of this season. And Rashford versus Kusunov or Rashford versus Nunez are two very different things.

41:43So maybe that's something to keep an eye out to see how he's approaching this. Because the other thing is, we're talking about how big this game is for United. it's a huge game for them as well they've started the season results wise well not been perfect like Keres has been saying so this is why I feel like it's a big game it's great isn't it it's fun I can't wait I can't wait either it's also sorry to interrupt like the sort of I think but if you look if you're talking about sort of the mindset that Mureska is going to go into it I think if he's been watching Man United which he'd like to kind of assume he has I think they will then this sort of directness and physicality is obviously the way to go right like we've seen that in the sort of that was how Hull got at them on the opening day Everton the times they looked most kind of dangerous was that directness down the flank so I think if you're looking at players like Antoine Semenu like Jeremy Dock is fit is he back?

42:32I think at the start of the season it was like he'll be out for two or three weeks he's out of Porto so maybe he comes back in I imagine they'll go with that sort of direct approach and try and hit United hard and I think that is the way that they've shown that they can be got at. Definitely a big game, definitely very interesting. And I'm excited to say as well that we will be doing our first ever post-match live stream in this studio on Sunday evening, whatever happens in the Manchester derby. Let's hope there's something positive for us to talk about and get our teeth into. We're scheduling it for 8.30pm UK time Sunday evening.

43:10Now, we'll do our best to meet that, but we've got to get the work done at the game and get across to the studio as well. but it'll be as close to that as we possibly can. So make sure you subscribe to us. We're pretty close now to 60 ,000 subscribers. Let's push that number a little higher with your help if we can and turn your notifications on as well. So whenever we go live on Sunday evening, you'll be notified and you can get involved. It'd be brilliant to have you with us.

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45:26right let's just reflect on a few things from sabo one one thing we haven't talked about lorry yet is manchester united's defense and how much of an issue this is for them now it was a bit of a changed back line last night. I think it will probably revert back to what we saw at Everton for the City game if Luke Shaw is okay. But it was the first clean sheet at Old Trafford since February. So they kept two in the first three home games. Manchester City was the first one. Spurs was the second. And conceding six goals in those opening games is a huge concern. What do you think about this issue? Did last night change anything at all?

46:07Well, I mean, it was the first time that Patrick Dorgou started at left-back. Yeah. He obviously likes attacking. Ever, I believe. Not just under Carrick. I don't think he ever did left-back under Oben Amarin because of the system. Well, he wouldn't have done. Yeah. Whenever he played a back four, it wasn't Dorgou. He played right wing against Newcastle. Yeah, right wing. Because he played back four that long time, then he sort of. But he did play left-back for Lecce, didn't he, I think? Yeah. Not much, though. Not much. Okay. So that's why I think there's been that reluctance from Carrick to play him there at all, even in pre-season.

46:40And that's why there was all that conversation about, you know, did they need a left back? You know, the conversation around Lewis Hall. And you can see from his approach that he does like to attack rather than defend. Now, I think I wonder if that's a little bit the consequence of Kunja drifting inside. I'd be intrigued to know if that was like a team instruction or whether that's Kunja taking that license on himself to get in the middle. because obviously that then produces the goal, right? Dorgou crosses for Cunha. He got in the middle more as a left winger than he did as a centre-forward, actually.

47:08Yeah, crazy, right? And so, but then that gave Dorgou the whole kind of flank and he got exposed a couple of times, didn't he? There was a cross that then the guy headed it into the side net in and there was one where Martínez had to come across and do the tackle that ended up in a goal kick. The guy? Joy Lance McHale. Can you tell me who it was then? Don't know. Joy Lance McHale. I was speaking to one of the players last night I didn't even know I was speaking to there's a Danker who did the one the dribble down the line apologies if I've pronounced that wrong yeah the chance was Mikel's was great yeah okay I'm just a United fan actually I saw that actually see the one I spoke to yeah he is yeah he was lovely yeah good top lad yeah I saw that before the game actually that he was a big United fan the actual joy when they got United out of their hat or whatever it is yeah good point must have been subliminal that that I've said that yeah that was great to see but yeah I'm glad that they didn't end up scoring because it was dangerous actually was they were good they were good to see like they passed the ball well like you could see why the coach is sort of heralded carrot was very complimentary wasn't it about him to say you know this guy knows what he's talking about but um more than I do obviously when I just keep saying this guy and that bloke but um I but the defense for United it did show again the vulnerabilities didn't it particularly at the end as the header just went over so yeah I could see why he changed it because I think it needed that.

48:28I think partly with a view of City, with Maguire and Shaw, partly with a view on Dogu, let's see how it works because we're going to have to do this at some point and then Amas coming on as well. I think, okay, we are really going through the full repertoire of left-backs here and then Jorow, I thought, would actually be pretty good performance. It would be great if he can really develop this season. I think we touched on this earlier, haven't we, but a couple of seasons where he hasn't quite been that guy that you're saying we're going to have him starting but But yeah, there's obviously concerns, but sometimes they just come together, don't they?

49:02I remember there's a Manchester derby under 10-1, where Rashford scored again, although maybe it was offside. Sorry, his goal wasn't offside. It was the Bruno goal that was maybe offside. Garnatural squared it to him. Yeah, it was a comeback win. And I think Molassi was left back that day and Luke Shaw was centre-back. Molassi had a good game. Yeah, but you've had these moments where you're thinking that defence won't work and then actually it comes together. So it's just all about the intensity, all about concentration. the right choice in the right moments. And they could keep a clean sheet against City.

49:32I wouldn't be surprised if that happens. Equally, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some chaotic defending and City score and you're kind of thinking, that's terrible. But yeah, that's why football's fun. Lenny Yoro, how do you see it playing out for him? Do you think the performance last night was enough to encourage them that he can be trusted a little bit more? I think last night was good for him. I thought he played well. he needs minutes that's why european football is good he was in the starting 11 this time last year and he needs to get stronger in the air that was certainly the feeling within the club he'll start bright as a league cup i would expect him to and you just get in either by benefiting from a from an injury from somebody else and then when you get in there and you're playing big premier league games you have a solid game you don't give a mistake up but lorry sort of touched on United looking vulnerable at times even against Sabah they did it was a very entertaining game it was a very open game I agree I like their tactics I thought they had some good players I thought the Croatian player of 13 was decent I'm not going to attempt to pronounce his name but I thought he did well I thought Josh Jerksy did well when he came on as well so that was he was gutted wasn't he when his shot didn't go in yeah not as gutted as that lad in the first half when he missed that header well biggest chance of your life it's coming in now everyone's watching joyland's quickels yeah was that the one i spoke to yeah it was him he was sound said um big united from blah blah blah and um he's sort of got the upper hand and he goes yeah but it rains all the time here no need for that mate he's coming out of it so in the mix zone last night we had to wait about 20 minutes for benjamin sesco so the journalists are just talking among themselves and lorry starts to reconvene with his mates because he's just been to benedorm and he wants to show off because he's like no one's ever been on a lad's trip before on an airplane to spain he's like i've just bit of benedorm look this is what my mates are really funny this is what they're saying and they're asking me about the game and uh one of them's saying that like yeah but it's only sabba i mean it's only sabba and um right behind we're like sabba's players honestly ever the professional yeah it's pretty it wasn't lorry's observation it was one of his mates it wasn't exactly and he provoked me into revealing because he's like what are you laughing at then I'll just enjoy myself it's Andy's fault it's my fault I take the blame he's so happy that he's been to Spain he's so giddy you had a good time I love that enthusiasm Kerris let's talk about the picture then for United in the Champions League if we can because you did some maths with Laurie and had a look back at the league phase history as to what United actually need to progress in this competition so three points on the board already how many more do you think they need to ensure that it's not the end of their Champions League campaign at the end of January?

52:22It would be very disappointing if it was. I think it was about 10, 9, a couple got into the playoffs. It's top 8 through and then the 16 after that you go into the playoffs or whatever it is. So basically 10 points guaranteed you a place in the playoffs? Yeah, a couple got in with 9 on goal difference, but it was 10 that got you in and then I think it was 16 that got you into the top eight, 16 or 15. So, you know, like three points on the board is a very good start. It should not be hard to get 10 points from, or what, seven more points from the remaining seven games. And he's got a furrowed brow there.

53:05Well, he saw him in the Champions League last time. Yeah, true. Well, yeah. Scotland thought they were on the way when they beat Haiti 1-0, didn't they, in the World Cup. Three points will be enough because statistically you only need 3.1 points to get through this group i like this to do group stage i like the way it works league phase league phase because it gives there's more jeopardy because you'd have these dead rubbers on match day five and six last time and i remember spending some time with shaktar daniec a few years ago and they'd only won like one game but they still had a chance of progressing i don't like the fact that we can't go to azerbaijan to watch the return legs but i can see merit in it and I saw absolute merit in it last night when I looked at the European Cup league table and Manchester United was second at one point this is where we want to be it was like PSG, Man United, Barcelona, Bayern Munich thinking is this false of course it is am I going to take it absolutely I think they ended up fourth in the end because of the scoring but yeah semi-finalists in this competition getting through to the the last 16 automatically without needing the playoff is definitely a benefit.

54:08I think the quarterfinals would be a decent marker to suggest United are backing it. And ultimately, it's just been backing this consistently again, Kerry says, isn't it? I mean, it's been, what, about five years since United had consecutive seasons in the Champions League. It's been a long time since they've been doing it back to back to back. So we need to get back to that. It just really made me laugh when we were sat there last night and you're going like, so how many points? And I was thinking, of course, like you've not covered the team since the format's changed. What's this league phase?

54:36Yeah, whereas I did it for Chelsea last season so I'm there like explaining it like this newfang it's been two years since the Europa League to be honest so it's getting your head around all the changes financially need it but that's the thing isn't it sorry Chris go on I generally got a tingle when they got the flag out yeah yeah and I'm like we were waiting for a while for them to start flapping it I was like come on that's the bit where you really know you're back in the Champions League you're saying the flag I met the people last night after the game who take the flags away in the Stretford End unsung heroes packing them away from the TRA section.

55:09Little things that you don't see. They're not allowed to leave them there for Sunday. Yeah, but they've got to pack them away and they're stinking and they've got beer on them. Oh, yeah. You know, someone has to volunteer their time. Do they wash them then? How are you going to wash them? I don't think you'll be able to wash them. No? No, I don't think so. Not to stay in there in a bag from Thursday to Sunday. Love it, I've turned the conversation to you two. It sounds like an athletic piece to me, that Andy. 8 ,000 word athletic piece. speaking of the sort of format then Atletico next that's when we'll know a bit more about this team isn't it?

55:41Yeah played them four times never beaten them beaten pre-season Julio Alvarez staying there gutted me a little bit They looked good for half an hour at Anfield the other night as well Yeah Rense got his goal Didn't watch it They are good and Villarreal will be good as well You're quite right this is where Manchester United should be measured up against them and it was a gutting to go out against Atletico last time because I didn't think United laid a punch on them and were disorganised. They weren't up for it. Como started well. That'll be a really interesting one. But isn't it great we can talk about this because a year ago we were talking about 23-day breaks until the next game.

56:19When you say that, there's a big break for the international break coming up. It's what we play these. This is why the next, I think particularly, the next two games are so important. In the league or in the Champions League? Knowing, just in general, now, the Derby and then the Cup game against Brighton. If you go into, I know there's Fulham after that, but if you go into that long international break without a result in the Derby and potentially even out of a Cup competition, I don't think anyone's that fussed what happens against Fulham. It feels like a very long three weeks. I think that's why the Derby is important for momentum going into midweek as well and momentum over the three-week break.

56:57Brighton can take 9 ,000 tickets for that game next week. Let's see how many they bring. I'll be fully expecting all 9 ,000 Brighton. Watch them turn up with like Sabah numbers. They brought about 200. They were funny. They were quite loud. They were right next to us, weren't they? And then the United fans next to him, you've seen United, no F off. I thought, come on, you've travelled 4 ,000 kilometres for this. I have a bit of charity. When United fans said to me last night, how are you getting to Sabah away? I'm not, mate, because it's the fourth man. I should have corrected him. I should have done.

57:27If my City mates ask me that, I'll send them there. You also went to another game yesterday as well. You went to the Youth League game. Also Manchester United against Sabah. Five, no win. What stood out? JJ Gabriel scoring a hat-trick. Manchester United being so dominant. 44 attempts on goal. And Sabah didn't have one. So it's not often that you see games like that. And just nice to watch the games like that. with no pressure and see who is sticking out and you think, oh, he's interesting. Where's he come from? And then we spoke to Adam Lawrence after the game. I like Adam. He's a proper South Londoner.

58:07He's like Millwall Charlton. He's got a really South London, Bermondsey accent and yet his kids have got Manc accents because he's lived up here for a while. So I have my work chat with Adam and he's talking about JJ and I think he's a talented coach. It's interesting that he's come back because obviously he left Newcastle, came back. but his family stayed in Manchester. Jim Fweights was decent. JJ's goals, two of them came in the last six, seven minutes. He's the youngest player on the pitch by a mile. He's very slight, incredibly skillful, and produces these moments of magic. So it was a very disciplined performance.

58:44Ojosco, Christian the Colombian, he came on as well. Get my pronunciation correct. That was actually not bad to be fair to you. He speaks Spanish. Well, one of the journalists went, he's signed here from Fortaleza, I don't know, Fortaleza, North East Brazil. There we go. I knew that, but I will get my pronunciation right. And then when like the work chat was finished with Adam, I'm saying like, I might go to, um, Millwall West Ham next week. And then his eyes lit up. Cause that's his manner. What's that being played eight in the morning? Yeah. I might go to it. It's, yeah. 6am. Yeah. No, it's half 12.

59:18My, my issue there is not getting a ticket or even going. It's my wife. because it's Fulham that weekend, isn't it? I told my wife we'd go to London for the weekend. She's thinking glamorous West London and you're going to take her to Millwall. No, I'm definitely not going to take her there. But I was also thinking it's United Women against Arsenal away. I just can't go to two games. Too many matches for you, isn't it? And then go to Fulham the next day. Football's lovely though, isn't it? I'm doing two games on Sunday, I think. Yeah, I know, but I'm taking it to London for the weekend. I can't go to three games.

59:51I mean, I'd be perfectly happy to do that. but Millwall West Ham would be a belter. What's your two games, the women and the men? Yeah, so I've not got accreditation for the men's game, so I'm going to go to the women's game, go do the presses there, and then buzz over to Old Trafford and sit in the stands instead. Yeah, okay. So it's a good Sunday. And what about the women then? Because obviously it was a disappointing start. We previewed it with you last time you were on, and it's no easier playing Chelsea, is it really? Yeah, I mean, I think I said on the podcast it was a really tough start, and the performance against London City was poor.

1:00:23the first 45 minutes they were pressed really aggressively they just looked london city looked like they were on the hunt united were were really lacking confidence olid spoke after the game and said that it didn't feel like the team were believing in having the ball and in what they wanted to do it did improve in the second half and the players that came on simia wujo who's been at the club for a couple of years now but without properly sort of getting a run of a run of starts together I think she could be really important this season um scored the literally like last play of the game consolation goal Monica Jussouba which I might have pronounced wrong new signing look endeared herself to kind of a weigh-in very quickly uh on the wing rapid created like the first sort of clear-cut chance for about an hour so yeah it's and Chelsea is uh Chelsea is a tough one I think that the consolation is that Melvin Mala who left United for Chelsea is not fit for this game which I think will come as kind of a pretty massive relief to those of a United persuasion not because of wishing a real will but just because they know how impactful it can be so yeah it's Chelsea and then it's Arsenal hopefully the trajectory of sort of improvement from that second half of the first game carries on but it was a very kind of bruising first kind of 45 minutes to an hour.

1:01:44Yeah okay right that's it then for Talk to Devils everyone can enjoy their games across the weekend. We've got lots to look forward to, certainly. And remember as well, we have the live stream post-game after the Manchester derby on Sunday, 8.30pm UK time. So get yourself subscribed, get those notifications on and join us after the game. But for the minute, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, Laurie, Kerris, Andy, for being here in the studio as well. And we'll see you after City, whatever happens. Take care. Bye-bye.

1:02:36The Athletic FC.

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