How might City verdict impact Man United?

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1:16The Athletic FC.

1:34This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, we'll react to the groundbreaking news that Manchester City have been found guilty of almost all charges levelled at them by the Premier League. We'll ask the question what effect this has on Manchester United, what it means for the future and everything else in between as well. Andy and Laurie are here for this. Just to spell it out then at the top, obviously this was an exclusive broken by the Athletics' David Ornstein last week. It was then confirmed in a pretty damning statement from the Premier League on Tuesday.

2:09City guilty of almost all the charges levelled at them by the Premier League. In the statement, it says the Premier League's independent commission has found them guilty on all charges related to serious breaches of the Premier League's financial rules, including what was described as sham payments in the statement. They were found to have artificially inflated their revenue and reduced costs by more than£900 million, according to the verdict of an independent regulatory commission. commission. Now, City maintain their innocence and say that they do intend to appeal, the deadline for which is on Friday.

2:44So there's still obviously lots more in this situation to learn and to develop as well. But huge, huge news, no question. First of all, gentlemen, what's your reaction? Mine was one of shock, I have to say. Not because City had been found guilty. You look at what's been leaked since 2018 the football leaks Rui Pinto um Der Spiegel the German publication putting all this out there and the sort of weight of evidence that it appeared uh certainly from that the city were liable for the charges but clearly they fought this tooth and nail every step of the way so it felt to me and from speaking to other people that they'd come together and perhaps come up with a collaborative approach to it at some point where, yes, fine, they've wanted to protest their innocence, but ultimately they might appreciate the momentum of the Premier League's case and come to some kind of agreement outside of the hearing.

3:46But clearly that wasn't the case. They absolutely still protest their innocence, but the Premier League's case was so strong that the independent commission were really stark in their language around it which that was the shocking thing to me just how strong the language was the use of the word sham eight times now i don't know if that's a specific legal term that they're including there particularly but it certainly has a very strong connotation and i think that's obviously what now will be associated with city right we've seen the memes um and that will stay with them i think forever whatever happens from this point on so i think that's why i was i was surprised but yeah it's been a long time coming i mean it was february 2023 when the charges were levied after the initial leak in 2018 after the uefa case as well against city that went to the court of arbitration for sport and then you know the hearings took place in late 2024 and it's come to this point now we're into you know sort of two years later from that stage where they've had to deliberate over the evidence gone through it with a fine-tooth comb.

4:45It's really detailed the release by the Independent Commission, by the Premier League. So yeah, I read it all. I understand hopefully most of it, but clearly it's systemic cheating on a grand scale. Yeah, I mean, the Premier League chairman, Richard Masters, in his statement, Andy, calls it the most significant case and decision of its type in the Premier League's history. I've seen other people describe it as one of the biggest, if not the biggest scandal ever in English football, potentially. obviously we've got a whole show here to sort of discuss what's going on but um this will run and run and run but again what's your sort of initial reaction to both david's initial piece and then now the the statement from the premier league and everyone else now anger ian that was my initial reaction and that's how i feel days later not surprised for the reasons that that lorry touched on we know circumstantially we've all had conversations in football I remember several conversations I've had with people in the industry remember one guy saying to me in in Budapest dude absolutely would know in June 23 Manchester City have driven a coach and horses through financial rules and anger because you you can't get it back I look back at games to take the semi-final at Wembley in in 2011 where City won okay Dimitar Berbatov did miss some chances I once pointed that out to him not a good idea saw things completely differently but City were cheating now I took my dad to that game City winning spoiled the day and my dad's now dead you don't you don't get it back and there's people's lives have been massively impacted across football because of what they've done.

6:36People have lost their jobs. You know, would Louis van Gaal have lost his job had Manchester United have got into Europe, into the Champions League before he did? Would Ole Gunnar Solskjaer have been sacked? And Manchester United suffered because Manchester City have been cheating. And it makes me angry. And I've seen United fans gleeful, laughing about it. I've not felt gleeful at all. I also hate the way it's changed my relationship with some of my best friends who are proper Manchester City fans who go home and away who I really respect as football fans because I don't even talk to them about football anymore and that's really sad and a couple of years ago one of them asked me what what I really felt and I said I think you're cheating and it was horrible it's one of my best friends someone I've known since childhood and I said you know I don't like it when Liverpool are doing what they did, winning in Madrid or winning in Istanbul, but I think it is done fair and square.

7:38I don't think Liverpool FC were cheating and it pains you as a Manchester United fan. And when I'm watching Manchester City, I'm just thinking, you're cheating. I'm not denying that Guardiola's a brilliant manager or individually some of those players are fantastic footballers or even the employees at the club, just normal working Mancunians who are doing the best. but it comes under the shadow of cheating. And I remember a City fan coming up to me a couple of years ago going, I hate you because you never mention us when we win anything. You don't even mention the treble. I'm like, I don't believe it's true.

8:17I think you've cheated. And that's how I feel. And I feel anger. I feel anger when I heard it. I feel anger now. Spoke to people who were involved at Manchester United. not just your names who are sort of joking, will I get my Premier League title? I joked with Nemanja Matic publicly. He said, what about this goal? And I said, well, you have to replay it when you get your title medal in a local park. He said, I'm up for that. Yeah, I've spoke to Man United members of staff who've lost out on bonuses because they were linked to Manchester United winning a title, getting in the Champions League.

8:55Not people who would get a winner's medal, but the course of manchester united's history has been changed even even to this summer you know manchester united's main target for this summer was elliot anderson okay i said it on the pod last september united would have probably gone to 85 million that's my guesstimate on it but city world's going to go to miles miles more for reasons where you're just very very doubtful so I feel cheated and I feel angry and I know that Manchester City fans going through lots of emotions and Manchester United fans are as well but you asked me the question and I've given you my best answer yeah we have a sample I'm sure in the private conversations we've had with friends and family with people at work we've had a lot of back and forth across whatsapp groups and social media and everything else it's been a wash since David's story broke and obviously since the statement from the Premier League as well, Manchester City's statement too.

9:55The Athletic has had absolutely comprehensive coverage of this in podcasts, on YouTube, also on the app as well. Go and have a look at the stories on there. Lots of brilliant writing on this situation. We're going to try and obviously relate this to Manchester United on this show, Laurie. So how do you think this affects United, first and foremost? In the immediate, in terms of what could happen, I suppose, clearly, as Andy's touched on there, people are thinking, could titles be stripped? I watched the Athletic Pod with James Horncastle, he spoke about the Juventus scandal, and obviously they had two title strips and nobody was installed as a champion.

10:35Only one of the years. Because Inter had to be champions for the Champions League. Yeah. Sorry. I would be surprised if that came to pass just because, I mean, I don't know. Would it feel right? Would it feel a little bit, not hollow, but it would feel strange, wouldn't it, if then managers, players are getting kind of titles. What do you do? How do you acknowledge that? But clearly, I think there's a... People want open-top bus parades through the centre of Manchester. I've heard talk of that. Maybe it'd make up for the 2008 one that didn't happen because of different reasons, shall we say. But I think that from a United point of view, when you think back to what happened, it goes all the way back to 2009, doesn't it, in terms of these accounts.

11:17So that summer, for example, City signed Carlos Tevez. Now, there's definitely a financial element to that as to why City were able to do that. And now, according to these findings, it was basically, and when you read through the findings, it goes into detail on when it first started and how City realised that they didn't have enough money in the sponsorship to match FFP rules at the time in that season, 2009-10. so they had to, according to the findings, adjust that later on and that's against the regulations, it's cheating and so would they have been able to sign Tevez had they not done that?

11:55That's a question I think and then obviously from that point he comes back from his golf trip in 2011-12 and helps win City that title and it's obviously an iconic moment for City in the Premier League but United were the ones up at Sunderland aghast that they had the title snatched away from them on goal difference And now, obviously, they could have won matches in that title period for sure. They could have done it themselves, but it still makes you think, okay, this was a different set of circumstances that teams were abiding by. And now you can maybe question the financial regulations that are in place and say, well, what's wrong about an owner wanting to put money into a club?

12:32Well, the reason why it happened was because you had nation states taking over, which totally changed the dynamic of what clubs were able to spend. it was rocket-fueled by City. So the prices were big, they were extensive, wages and transfer fees. And this follows on from the Roman Abramovich investment into Chelsea, which again, you saw the same thing there. And so United were, to my mind, I've spoken to people around this, at certain moments throughout that period, trying to match with City. Now, they obviously made wrong decisions in recruitment along the way, and that's where they've not had the title success they wanted, and also are now strained financially because of those kind of choices.

13:11Now you can say, well, they should have done better in that recruitment anyway. I'm not sort of absolving them of the decisions that were made. But I do think there's an element of trying to keep up with City and perhaps others, but mainly City because of the titles they were winning, because of the money they were spending. And now also on the commercial side, it's all the commercial, isn't it? It's sort of how much revenue can you generate from a commercial point of view? United, I think, were pretty good at that. And it felt like they maybe plateaued where City kept on going, going, going. and now according to the documents we we know why and i know that these were leaks prior to this point so it's not a surprise but equally it's still perhaps a different thing more legitimacy more validity when you've got three king's council lawyers saying that this is their their ruling it does sort of cast aside any kind of reasons for city perhaps having legitimate reasons to say that their commercial revenue went up yeah i mean i'm i'm following the updates every day i'm reading about it and some of the athletic coverage has been fantastic Danny Taylor did a good piece I think hat tip to some of the journalists who've covered this as well throughout even when they've been publicly mocked and they've been abused there's been some really brave journalists who've been onto this it's not always easy because Manchester City have clamped down really hard on any dissenting voices I remember in August 22 getting a call from from City one of the magazines I worked for had written a piece and City were not happy with it and the magazine had a choice do you fight it but you need really deep pockets to fight it so they couldn't fight it so the the piece ends up getting getting taken taken down and when you just read into it all the distortion the distraction tactics the lies and that leads to terms like sham being mentioned several times the scandal the swindle I mean it's industrial scale cheating 900 million pounds.

15:03Yeah, that's the shocking thing, isn't it? The level of it when you add it all up. The level of it. I hear all City fans talking about this red cartel and that these rules only protect the biggest clubs. Well, Manchester City were once one of the biggest clubs. In the 1930s, City were a bigger club than Manchester United. And what makes a big club? What made Manchester United big in the early 90s? It was because of a combination of factors. Yeah, a big support, but the class of 92 being recruited getting the youth system done you know done pretty organically and then being capitalized on with manchester united being very aggressive in selling merchandise but that's not cheating might not be for everyone's liking and then expanding the stadium because the demand is is bigger that is how a club grows organically and manchester united's revenues rocketed in in the 1990s and then that money was reinvested back into football that also saddens me because some of that money is now lost to interest payments after the highly leveraged buyout the timing of it saddens me because at the same point that United were so strong and started to get weighed down by the debt of the Glazers Manchester City I wouldn't say benefited from that but took advantage of Manchester United being in a in a weaker position and there's so many sliding doors moments would Carlos Tavez who I thought was a really good player at Manchester United.

16:29I don't buy Ferguson's version of history or United fans admonishing Carlos Tavez. He was a brilliant player for Manchester United, but he's obviously been offered a huge amount of money by a club who were cheating. So it has directly impacted on Manchester United. And this commission, it took three and a half years. It was a 42-day independent hearing it's irrefutable and it just it just makes me it makes me angry i think the premier league is really popular globally because there's a perception that it's clean you know these corinthian values um for better or for worse but when i see teams like well they all begin with b brighton and and and bournemouth and brentford going to anfield or to old trafford and winning I don't like it when it's my team suffering but I acknowledge that is a strength of the league and Manchester City have cheated they've cheated they've signed up to a set of rules and then they've broken those rules on an on an industrial scale according to this in-depth investigation according to the Premier League I think it damages the the credibility of the league It absolutely damages Manchester City's reputation.

17:49It's just a really sad situation. Sport's not supposed to be like this. Sport is supposed to be something that you celebrate, that you enjoy, that it's a release, and it's come to this. Yeah, OK. We should point out at this point that City do maintain their innocence, use the word irrefutable before Andy. They've also used the same word to say that they have irrefutable evidence to be able to challenge this verdict.

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20:32Like we said before, the appeal deadline is Friday 2nd October, so by the time you're listening or watching this, they could well have already lodged that appeal. There's then a 12-week process from that point, or an attempted 12-week process, because 12 weeks from Friday is actually Christmas Day, and I don't think we'll be having any announcements on that particular day of the calendar. But the appeal process should be much quicker, Laurie, than what we've seen. I mean when you say 2009 this is 17 years ago it's an entire career for some of these players it's an entire lifetime of supporting these teams for some supporters as well yeah and that's why there's been such a strong feeling around it from City fans you know there's been I agree with Andy I've got mates that you know are kind of absolutely in step with what City have been saying and and And I've perhaps found this ruling hard to come to terms with a little bit.

21:30But they've mobilised the fan base, haven't they? So that's why there's a pushback against this kind of ownership, because it goes beyond football. It goes into politics. Now, you're also seeing the political element to all this as well. You know, Andy Burnham being asked about it and kind of giving an interesting answer to it. And, you know, the UAE's clearly got a feeling around it, according to a Bloomberg report that came out a couple of weeks ago. So yeah, that's why it's been such a delicate one. That's why it's been such a long time coming. And now what are the punishments? That's what everyone wants to know now, what happens now.

22:05And clearly this appeals process, hopefully it's a lot quicker because you can't be waiting this long again because justice delayed is justice denied because in that period since City have been found guilty of these allegations of cheating, then they've gone and won titles more. you know they've kind of continued to spend and when you look at the the figures the commercial revenue that was being brought in up until 2018 that has been uh found to be enhanced artificially to the tune of i think it's 830 million increased revenue is is what uh they've said over the time frame plus then also the kind of uh the the lowering of outgoing so you kind of come to an overall figure of 900 million something like that um it's continued at the same commercial rate so So I'd be intrigued to know how that has happened when the previous set of accounts with the commercial revenue has been found to be fraudulent.

23:00So, yeah, what happens? I mean, would a points deduction for City for all the seasons that they've breached the FFP rules be workable, be justifiable? You look at what Everton got docked, Forrest got docked, and just think, well, that is small fry compared to what City have been accused of, plus the failures to cooperate. That's a really big one. Like I say, they've fought every step of the way because they say they're innocent and it all goes down to this sort of one misunderstanding, according to Ferran Sonia, the chief executive, who I think when you read the documents, hopefully my reading of this is right, is that effectively the Abu Dhabi group that is investing into these sponsors, it's for the sponsors it's not necessarily for City but clearly what the lawyers have found is that that wasn't the case and it was effectively the money that City needed to match the accounts that were required so um yeah let's see if that changes once the appeal process goes through but I I think that yeah having City dot points for sequential seasons is justifiable and could be workable because you know for all that it then would affect each season it would prolong it maybe there's an element of some excitement around that where can City climb up the table or not I certainly think that players would have considerations to make in that scenario where they would think well I didn't sign up for this and they probably have legal calls to ask the question but it's not a perfect answer is there because as you say this is memories you know it's you mentioned Tevez from your United point of view Alexia Sanchez Do United spend all that money on Alexis Sanchez, give him that wage that they gave him, then give David De Gea the wage that they gave him?

24:52There's so many knock-on impacts. And even Cristiano Ronaldo, we were all excited, weren't we? Does that happen without City's involvement and the wage that they were apparently willing to give him? I guess you can't re-legislate all that stuff like it's impossible it feels to me I know that you can strip titles maybe but I think something going forwards would be the right course of action because then at least you kind of get giving other teams the chance to have these memories even you look at Aston Villa City took so many players from Aston Villa year after year Arsenal I'm loathe to necessarily give Arsenal too much sympathy but they were Nasri, Adebayor, Sanya Khaleesi, so many players that City took off them, it now transpires according to the lawyers of the Independent Commission that it was done in a fraudulent way so yeah, I don't know what do you guys think, how do you rectify this because it seems such a seismic fundamental point of principle with the Premier League and I have to say I do applaud the Premier League for pursuing it to the very end, to this point and doing it with clear diligence and rigour because they were getting a lot of stick from people.

26:07They've had a lot of attacks for behaving in a certain way, for delays, etc. But you can understand why when you read through the ruling. Yeah, they clearly wanted to get it absolutely right. You can tell that by the extensive amount of documentation involved in this process, that the length of the verdict, the whole process has been absolutely thorough. There's no question about that. I mean, if this is upheld and appeals aren't successful and City aren't able to overturn the verdict, Andy, what do you think would be just in terms of a punishment? Because Larry's talked there about points deductions.

26:52There's obviously the option of retrospective action, looking at the seasons affected. You could limit future transfer activities. I know Adam Crafton on one of the Athletic FC podcasts talked about this idea of every year taking a certain number of points off Manchester City for an extended period to try and counteract what had happened previously. There's no perfect answer. Obviously, City being relegated would be a huge moment as well. And obviously, then there's a question of would the AFL accept them in? And where would that relegation end? But it feels almost impossible really to create the perfect punishment, I suppose, if they are indeed guilty of all of this.

27:33So it's huge, as you two have been touching on. And Richard Masters from the Premier League, he said this disciplinary case and the decision are the most significant in Premier League history. It is unprecedented. And I think any punishment should reflect the size of the crime and of the cheating. It should act as a deterrent from people thinking that they can do this in the future. Retrospectively, I've heard varying opinions. You know, I don't want a league title that I didn't properly win. I actually do think that Manchester United or Liverpool, Liverpool were hit even harder than Manchester United.

28:09No, them brilliant Jurgen Klopp teams, they weren't cheating. They were miles better than Manchester United, but they pushed Manchester City some years. and if your city were not cheating Liverpool would have won the league and I think that they deserve as long as Steven Gerrard doesn't get a medal I'm only joking to be awarded a title retrospectively same with Manchester United you know people have lost their jobs Louis van Gaal lost his job Jose Mourinho who finished second in 18 was out of a job six months later and he did talk himself out of it and he did say yeah I should have been sacked but had United gone into that miserable summer of 18 and Mourinho was more miserable than anyone as league champions the aspect around the club the mood around the club would have been completely different would Ole Gunnar Solskjaer lost his job no he wouldn't because he would have won a league title and that would have given him much more credit in the bank so retrospectively I'm up for realignment.

29:14There's smaller clubs. You think of your own club. What about Stoke City who reached the FA Cup final in 2011? Had Stoke won that, which they would have had a fairer chance doing if the team they were playing against were not cheating, people in the potteries would be dining out on that now. Just like Wigan Athletic fans who did actually manage to win the FA Cup against Manchester City in 2013. That's a key moment, isn't it? Yeah. In the ruling, that year, basically they talk about a payment that needed to be made, an unexpected payment at£20 million, because in 2013, basically, I think I'm reading between the lines there because it's redacted, but Roberto Mancini was sacked and Manuel Pellegrini replaced him.

29:57So there's certain elements that have happened that are the fortunes of football that they obviously didn't account for in their financial recordings. Real lives again. My uncle David was Wiggins' kit man that year. he's he won he got an awarded with a fa cup winner's medal it's his proudest possession if he meets somebody new within 30 seconds he tells him that he's got an fa cup winner's medal we'll we'll joke about him but it shows the serious impact and manchester city just cleaned up with all these these trips to to wembley but a significant element of it was was based on cheating going forward they have to be punished i don't think a fine really affects manchester city if they're going to continue under the same ownership model and structure as the one that they have at the moment.

30:44They've been fine before. Chelsea have been fine before. I think the punishment should be a heavier one. And even then, if City were relegated and dropped down to a division, part of me is actually envious because I'd love to watch Man United around all these grounds and go to these places. And City have been there before. The start of this century, City were in the third tier. edgley park macclesfield town dream dreams they had a flag a few years ago at one of the derbies we've seen things you'll never see which is a line from an oasis song and liam gallab has been particularly vitriolic about this hasn't it and even there you know i bought tickets to see him at the weekend and part of me thinking i'm giving him money probably hates us you're giving money to someone who hates you all these ridiculous conflicts going through through your mind we've see things we'll never see you know the celebration of of of panic the it was working for them as as from an illegal capacity there's a ridiculousness to it all but again my feeling is is anchored in anger because a significant chunk of my life watching manchester united is tainted by what could have have happened now that game at sunderland when manchester united lost out on the league title people pay good money to go up there they're going to get compensated £93.20 is what they should be getting for that to nullify the uh that aguero moment just got that i thought you actually knew the price of the trains that day knowing what you did thought you'd filed it in your in your memory um i mean another aspect of this which is beginning to develop now is is the option for legal action compensation claims by other clubs other organisations as well and David Ornstein has been speaking on this topic on the Athletic FC podcast here's a sample of what he's been saying the factual stuff is that a number of clubs it was the Arsenal Tottenham Manchester United Liverpool's of this world some time ago served notice of their intention to take potential legal action or reserve their rights if and when uh manchester city were found and ruled definitively to be guilty and punished i don't know if that was to um if the time was running out uh in in terms of whether there's a statute of limitations around that like six years um and so that sort of bought them time in in that eventuality what we do know now and we reported it on i think friday evening was that clubs are mobilizing legal teams they are in touch with each other there's talk among them about potential class action um sort of grouping together of course this would have to come post appeals they can't really do anything before then yes there is appetite there among the other clubs and of course if they feel wronged and that they potentially lost out on titles and merit placements and bonuses and progress or managers were sacked and relegations took place none of this means that they will be successful that we know the outcome but yeah there is activity going on inside clubs into clubs underneath the surface and we'll see where it leads them just an example of how of how this certainly isn't finished and there's much more to come um Laurie what do you understand about United's position in this yeah well they We have, as David mentioned, and Adam Crafton reported as well, been looking at the legal angle throughout, really, since the charges were levied and they've retained their right to seek compensation.

34:27It's a little bit unclear exactly in terms of what... I think in both ways, you can do it with the Premier League, which is how Burnley were rewarded£40 million in compensation around that with the Everton case because they got relegated in a season when Everton breached the rules and their punishment only came after. But there's also the limitation at 1980, which lawyers have been mentioning, which has a sort of time bar of six years from the date of the breach or maybe the date of the discovery of the breach, which was obviously 2018. So I think in 2024, clubs were thinking we need to just make sure that we've registered this.

35:05So yeah, so they are seeking their options, United, and it'd be sort of fascinating to see how hard they push that because, you know, as Andy says, like it does have such wide-reaching ramifications for Champions League qualification in a certain year or even a merit payment, you know, obviously winning a tie or sponsorship clauses that that would then trigger. I don't really know how you kind of go through it with a fine-tooth comb, whether the clubs push hard and ultimately come to some kind of agreement, whether City, I mean, in terms of actually agreeing to that, I don't know what the exact legislation is.

35:43I would imagine that's another long-running saga, but I think there's certainly an appetite from clubs to pursue it. Yeah, we've got a little bit of precedent, Andy, with Everton and Burnley and the process that they've been going through. So Burnley pressed charges against Everton after their punishment for breaching PSR rules in the Premier League, and now Everton are repealing that, and that is still ongoing at the moment. So there is an example of how this actually can end up playing out in the future for clubs. Yeah, and this is much more serious than any of those instances. So you would think that the punishment should reflect that.

36:21There are some historical precedents and parallels as well. In fact, one of Manchester United's greatest ever players came to Old Trafford after 1905 bribery allegations involving Manchester City and Aston Villa. And City had to get rid of all the players, put them up for a fire sale. and Manchester United's wily manager got wind of this got into the players nice and early and Billy Meredith ended up joining Manchester United long long time ago but I'm sure fans would have these conversations would you take any players from City right now I don't even want to sound gleeful here I don't even want to sound like rubbing it in because I don't feel that way I feel angry about the whole thing I think it has tainted the fact that you go and watch football in good faith you know your team can win you know you can lose but you think that it's a relatively level playing field when you go into that stadium and you assume that both clubs are gonna have signed up to the rules and would abide by those rules and they're both trying to win the game and if anything detracts from that then it lessens it lessens the product and it makes you feel solid and cheated it's the complexity of it Laurie as well obviously that there are different ways that you can take it as a Manchester United fan but then when you start to see the Prime Minister of the country Andy Burnham obviously former Manchester Mayor saying that he's really concerned or he would be really concerned to lose Manchester City's owners from English football describing him as a huge partner in building modern Manchester and everything that's gone on there in the relationship between the Abu Dhabi United Group and Manchester City Council again that's been questioned there's some controversy around that relationship too in terms of the coverage of it but the undoubtedly close ties between the UK and the UAE.

38:11You've then got Etihad Airways and their statement expressing their criticism for the findings and insisting that they reject any notion that they're implicated in any of these financial irregularities that the Premier League Commission has found. So it's got such a long way to run this as well, hasn't it? That's the other thing I keep coming back to. you can obviously read the statement you can obviously read the verdict you can obviously read the responses and so on but all it makes me feel is that this isn't the end by any stretch that there is there is huge vindication for the process that we've got to the point where a verdict can be made but when you talk about appeals and legal proceedings and the future even relationships between countries this is just so complex and it is going to run and run and run and run and it is going to provide the backdrop to English football for quite a while yet which just seems so sad to me yeah we shouldn't have to be talking about lawyers and account should we you know we want to be talking about how many times have we said that in recent years on this podcast yeah uh yeah and the amount of issues we have had to discuss and dissect that aren't really related to football is quite incredible yeah listen I suppose it's it is interesting in one sense to talk about but it is it's damning it shouldn't have happened and you mentioned andy talking about teams competing with each other and obviously it's different than you know when you had 100 meters race and there's you know doping involved you know there's there's runners on steroids or whatever that obviously has a material impact in what that person is able to do over that stretch of distance now this is different because you are getting 11 players that have been assembled versus 11 players that have been assembled and you know your best versus our best and that that seems a fair fight but obviously it's not really when you peel back all these layers and you see that in City's case according to the ruling they were enhancing that you know they've called it artificial they've called it a sham in the in the documents and people that I've spoken to have called it financial doping you know you've heard that I think even Arsene Wenger way back when probably uh christened that term perhaps so um yeah so that's why it's it cuts to the heart of what people want from their sport and you are right it's going to run and run I mean listen City have got Liverpool next.

40:32I mean, you know, we had United fans singing about City being cheats in the derby recently and that was before this verdict. You are going to get every set of fans going after City when they visit their ground. It's just going to be the case. Particularly, I mean, Liverpool certainly, as Andy says, have got a major reason to have grievance because they were fighting up against a really strong City side that had been built on the platform of fabrication, ultimately. and they clearly could have had more league titles. They're a very, very good team under Jurgen Klopp. So that atmosphere is going to be intense and it'll stay with City.

41:10Whatever happens legally, in terms of the punishment, in terms of compensation, people all over the country, all over the world, will think of City in this way now. Sham. That's what they will be associated with and I don't think that'll ever go. So that'll stay forever, really. Can any good come from this? I think there's a football regulator. I think we should look at football ownership models. We've discussed in-depth, highly leveraged buyouts. They should not be allowed. Should nation states be able to own football clubs? No. I don't think when they've been muted with Manchester United, that has been a good idea either.

41:51But there are a lot of Manchester United fans who are absolutely welcoming anyone in, as long as they spend money on shiny new footballers. I think there's got to be tighter regulation. And the Premier League, and this is one reason it's been successful, the barriers to entry were so low. Anyone could come in. Roman Abramovich could come in. Chelsea lost£90 million per year. And they tipped the balance away from Manchester United. Now, whatever you say about Manchester United, the club was generating their own funds. It was not cheating. In fact, United was so successful that you end up attracting the Glazers who end up ultimately being really bad for Manchester United.

42:30So I think tighter ownership models, and yet the Premier League has been really, really attractive because of the loose regulation around it. There's got to be some sort of compromise. You know, I look at elements of the German model where the fans own the 51 % model, and I envy it. But then I also look at the latter ends of European competition and English clubs are completely dominating. um so i don't have a solution to that but the ownership of football clubs these clubs are community assets no matter how big they are manchester city are still from stockport or sorry manchester and they value a lot to the people you know before all this happened city were a big club they did average 35 000 they were getting 44 000 even when they moved to that new stadium they're a big club by any measurement and they've got giddy and carried away and they've won everything and i think a lot of football fans would actually accept the same i don't think that's just on city fans i think we've seen it when fans have got taken over did they care about the source of the money just just buy me that new center forward away we go i'm not going to say football fans should look at themselves because you're not going to change human nature but i think that the the ownership model around football club is something which could be tightened up a lot in England okay we've obviously had a lot of emails about this and lots of different questions as well and again I've always tried my best to reflect people's points during the conversation but thank you to Losh who pointed out it's actually my fault all of this because it turns out when I go on holiday not to make this all about me but when I go on holiday breaking news happens.

44:17So the last three holidays that I've had when I've not taken recording equipment and we've done plenty of podcasts on the road in different locations with weird and wonderful equipment at times. But basically the last three times I've gone on holiday and not took my equipment, Manchester City's charges, this verdict has been announced. The previous time Ruben Amaroum was sacked. The previous time we had the double whammy of Cristiano Ronaldo announcing that he's leaving Manchester United and also the club being put up for sale effectively. So the lesson here is either I need to stop going on holiday or I need to take the recording equipment with me no matter where I go.

44:51But thank you, Lash, for pointing that out and I would like to take. Sorry, could you have done a recording from Blue Lagoon, Ian? You know, you'd love to take a trip to Iceland. We've seen a lovely picture of you with a face mask and a pint in Blue Lagoon. You've seen it, yeah, absolutely. I've shared it. Have you shared it? Yeah, okay, thank you. Visually, I'm sure the listeners or the viewers can picture it in their minds now. They can picture it now, I'm sure, absolutely. It reminds me, Ian, of Stuart Matheson, who covered the Manchester United for the evening news after David Meek. Stuart was a really diligent journalist and did his job properly, but every time he went on holiday, something major would happen.

45:27Fergie would step down, and you're just the new Stuart Matheson. Every time you go away, something major happens. I think a lot of people were, I'm not going to say caught out, but I saw a lot of people saying, why is so-and-so not responding? Why has he said nothing? Well, actually, because he's on holiday because there's a free weekend. I was genuinely, genuinely in an ice cave in the highest glacier, I think in Europe at the point when this broke. And I got back to a phone signal and everything else at the bottom of the mountain and realised that, you know, English football had changed forever.

45:59so yeah is there some symbolism there Ian in you know all crashing down or you know the break in the ice or something an avalanche yeah I don't know I don't know but yeah it was a pretty uh pretty bizarre way to to find out about it all

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48:10Going back to the emails, another aspect of this from Manchester United's perspective is Omar Barada and obviously his role or previous roles at Manchester City. So Chief Operating Officer between 2016 and 2020 and before that, Senior Vice President, Group Commercial Director, Director of Partnership Sales, Head of International Business Development. Very important roles for City. What do we understand about his position within this, Laurie, and how much of a concern could it be, basically, for Manchester United to have their Chief Executive even linked with this? Yeah, I can understand people asking that question because clearly where you look at what city have been accused of in terms of the commercial, in terms of sponsorship, some of that, not these particular cases, but that obviously was Omar Barada's job in certain parts.

49:05Now, we have to say, absolutely, he's not a witness in this hearing. His name doesn't appear in any of the emails that were reported by de Spiegel. Not involved is the answer to his situation around this case. but I do think that that is still a question then in terms of does he need to come out and sort of clarify that in any kind of way because you kind of want a chief executive of United to be fully United, don't you? It was a big move when he went from City to United and from what I can tell from the kind of work that he's been doing, people have been impressed by what he's done but you kind of want a chief executive of United to be fully Manchester United-minded and I'm sure he is, but I wonder just if this case then just brings that to the fore and sort of, you know, invites the question of some kind of statement from him, some kind of interview maybe.

50:03I appreciate his legal issues around that, you know, obviously City appealing. I'm sure it's very difficult in terms of what he could or couldn't say. But certainly, you know, United, the co-owners, when they appointed him, this was part of the conversation and they were absolutely satisfied that it wouldn't be an issue for them. And so, yeah, here we are. Like I say, he wasn't involved in the case at all, but I can understand why there's a question around it and maybe there's some clarity that's required. I think it's a legitimate question to ask. I'd be stunned if Manchester United had not done due diligence before appointing Omar Barada.

50:43As Laurie says, it might be wise for him to say something publicly, legally I'm not sure of where he would be able to stand on doing that if only to calm some Manchester United fans down and if he's not allowed to say anything he should just get a little flag with 3 ,007 and just stand up in the next game and just hold it up and let him know what sides people are look I'm being slightly jokey with it it is a serious point it is a legitimate question I've answered with my view there as Laurie has I think as well, it's sort of how United then proceed with this. Obviously, as we touched on earlier, there's the legal case, isn't there?

51:22It's sort of seeing, you want that to be pursued absolutely from a United point of view. And obviously, O'Mabarada will be leading that. So I think it's going to be really interesting a few weeks ahead. Yeah, definitely. And obviously, then it's the effect it has on football, because that will begin again very soon. Manchester United are obviously back in action. Manchester City will be, everyone else will be when the Premier League resumes. not this weekend, but next weekend. And what impact is it going to even have on this season, Andy, with all this ongoing and maybe no punishments or no appeals completely finalised?

51:58Because I cannot see how Manchester City's players will not be affected by the atmosphere that they're going to walk in everywhere. I mean, I cannot even begin to imagine what the Manchester derby is going to be like, for example. not least going to Anfield like Laurie mentioned before it is bound to have an impact on the football this season isn't it? Well all I'd hope in the next Manchester derby is it's refereed fairly and not unfairly like the recent Manchester derby City's players are going to get absolutely loads of stick there's a lot of anger I keep using that word it's not just Manchester United fans who are angry about this it's fans of all clubs and they feel cheated and I think attitudes are hardening as well but it does not your confidence in what you're watching it's as you said next week United against Tottenham at Old Trafford you're thinking are Tottenham undergoing some elaborate experiment where they spend a load of money but really secretly they've done some dodgy bets to try and not win a game all season in the Premier League it's just mad how big this story is and it's not going to go away there's twists and turns already you're seeing battle lines being drawn you're seeing the tribalistic nature of football fans as well which is not always a good thing you're seeing City's fan base being split between rational people going this is bad there are going to be punishments and you're getting other city fans going well actually i've just found myself um newly qualified as a legal expert and actually we've done absolutely nothing wrong and traditionally fans always circle back to the club you know whenever there's an argument over a player fans tend to come back to supporting the club because that is their default i think it's much harder for the city fans or some city fans to do that but there will be defiance among City fans as well because they're being attacked on social media they're going to be getting stick at matches so they're going to feel a defiance and that they've got their they're being cornered and there'll be a reaction to that as well the whole thing is an unedifying mess could this ignite anything in Manchester United season Laurie because you know we've kind of forgotten how we all how bad we all felt when uh this international break began because of this huge distraction and obviously the the separation of time from United last playing but do you see it benefiting United's season on the pitch it's a weird question to ask in some ways well I mean if City get a points deduction this season um then yeah well yeah I mean I don't anticipate does it increase the chances of of Champions League football I mean I how do you actually read what impact this is going to have on United on the field?

54:37Well on United specifically certainly people at the club at all levels have been discussing this and sort of wondering what the ramifications are they've been training although it's been a reduced set of players hasn't it given the international break quite a few youth players I think have been training with the first team with Michael Carrick and Steve Holland so it's tough I suppose to get like a genuine football momentum in that scenario but it is a huge game isn't it against Tottenham maybe on the flip side you think about City and I know there was some focus on this wasn't there with the City players during the England game were they making mistakes you know because of all that was going on it must be tough to kind of stay focused when you are you know the subject of such scrutiny like this and and when I think the atmosphere will be changed for matches that they've got um yeah will will this have any impact on you know I don't I think it comes down to what United can do I don't think they can really think about what's going on with City.

55:33I think they have to get their style in order, get their personnel in the right frame of mind and also the right fitness. And Carrick has to sort of figure out the right way to go about taking on Deserby to begin with and then the matches subsequently to that. Because obviously then it starts, doesn't it? The Champions League starts in earnest and you've got back-to-back games. It's exciting. I want to be talking about football matches where we've got these trips to Como and Madrid to look forward to. It does sadden me and kind of depress me that it's become this world of lawyering. And when you hear some of the descriptions that were, you know, some of the emails that have been put into the public domain, you know, we can do what we want, we're on the lines from a city executive.

56:18And it does, that's what I think sticks in the craw, this idea that, you know, there are regulations for other people, we're above that. And that's what's really, I think, probably done City, that's probably undermined City, actually, ultimately, because ultimately the breaches are so flagrant that it feels like they felt above, that they felt impunity, really. And so, yeah, whether that comes into effect, I do, you know, be intriguing to me, you know, what the Glazer response to this is, what Sir Jim Ratcliffe's response to this is. He's been actually pretty acquiescent, really, to the City case.

56:55Maybe since United have hired people from City, let's say. There's more than just Ray Mabrada. There's obviously Jason Wilcox, who's director of football from City. There's several staff members at different levels. Whether that's impacted what Ratcliffe's views are, because I think Ratcliffe looks at City as a vision of success and wants to replicate that with United. I think that's risky really because as we've seen, it's such a special set of circumstances for City, aside from having Pep Guardiola as manager, but obviously all the players that they were able to acquire. But he's been pretty, I think in February, wasn't he?

57:31He was asked by journalists when he first, February 24th, sorry, I should say, when he was first asked by journalists about this. and he sort of said, I don't understand any of this. I just want to smash them on the pitch. So kind of, and then also talking about state ownership and an owner being able to invest and kind of saying that he wanted less regulation. I mean, I don't know if that's part of his political stance really, isn't it, as well? I suppose you'd say that with Ratcliffe. So yeah, but whether that then filters down into the coaching staff and the players, I don't know. I think you'll have so many different responses to this.

58:02And certainly a lot of people that have been at United prior to this point were looking at the City situation and thinking that's not right and therefore justifying their own, perhaps, readings of what United were able to do. And so, yeah, whether that then, I don't know, I've kind of gone about the houses on the answer here, Ian, because there's just so many thoughts in my mind and I don't know whether, clearly United will be singing about this, won't they, against Spurs, even if it's not, there'll be some kind of response to it. You've got to think the fans, whether that then plays into what the players do on the pitch I guess is another matter.

58:36United were already singing about it. They've been consistently singing about it for years. There was a flags in the away end at City's place a couple of years ago. One of the most cryptic ones but it was delightful. Is that going back up Andy? Well I mean this one was like on a scruffy bed sheet and it just said 3007 which was their home gate against Mansfield their lowest ever crowd I think. 192 which is the bus to Stockport where United fans were saying City fans live and 1-1-5, which was the number of charges. I think there'll be a lot more than that. United could rise a place if City are docked points, but I think what is most important for Manchester United is that the team start playing.

59:15This season's been really disappointing so far. It's been really underwhelming. The players have not done as well as we'd expected. The results have been really poor. The league table is not lying. I know it's early on. I'm hoping that there's some kind of reset. Michael Carrick has always said there's going to be bumps. It's just unfortunate that the bump has come at the start of the season. But look at the fixtures ahead, as Ian touched on. Tottenham at home, they've had a bad start to the season. They need a result. But then, Atletico Madrid away. Atletico, I've watched them a lot. They're really, really good, especially at home.

59:49Leeds United, Bournemouth, you've got massive games, Champions League games. And Manchester United need to get in a groove. We've not seen any evidence of that so far this season. and start playing well, start winning matches, start moving up the table, get a Champions League finish and continue the idea that Manchester United have got of stabilising and improving the revenues so that the team can start going for the best players. And in an idealised world, doing that against a fairer backdrop where they can go honestly for someone like Elliot Anderson in the future with revenues that have been generated by what Manchester United have done on the pitch and from being successful as a team.

1:00:28The team have got to raise the game. It's been really disappointing so far this season. Yeah, we all agree with that. But don't worry about that for the moment. Obviously, there's time for that to come. We're going to leave it there for Talk of the Devils for today. Lots more to come on this story, no question at all. And The Athletic will have the very best coverage on this, I can confidently say, because that has been the case from David first breaking this story last week, David Ornstein. Anyone who was tuning in today expecting the next instalment of the top 25 series that we've done. I'm really sorry.

1:00:59They have been recorded and they will be coming your way over the next few days. The next one is on Saturday and the final one on Monday. That is the top 10 as viewed by Manchester United's very own expert that we have, Andy Mitton. So, yeah, it's an interesting watch, an interesting listen. He's gone through all the evidence. He's come down hard with his ruling. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and we did cross-examine him a fair amount, Laurie, didn't we? So the next instalment is 10 through to 6, and then the final one will be 5 down to 1. It's definitely worth checking that out, so keep your eyes out for that.

1:01:37If you're watching on YouTube, get yourself subscribed to the channel, get the notifications on to find out exactly when those episodes drop. But after that, we'll be back on Thursday, the 8th of October to preview Manchester United's game against Tottenham Hotspur and obviously talk about the international break and everything that's happened in between as well. But for the moment, thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Laurie and Andy, thank you very much for being with us as always. And we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.

1:02:28The Athletic FC.

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