Man United embarrassed at Como - what next?

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1:14Laurie Whitwell: The Athletic FC.

1:31Ian Irving: This is Talk to the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. We are live on YouTube after Manchester United's embarrassing 4-1 defeat away to Como in the Champions League. Andy and Laurie are both on the stream with us. They are still in Italy, of course. They've made it back to their hotels, but we need to talk about Manchester United right now. It's another one of those nights. There's questions about the players, about Michael Carrick, about the staff, about the leadership and ownership of the club. It's one of those moments. So thank you for your company. Thank you for everyone for joining already.

2:06Ian Irving: The comments are active, shall we say, as we'd expect, because everyone is pretty upset with the situation with United right now. And certainly after watching that game. Andy, Laurie, you were both there, of course. I have no FOMO about Como, Laurie. what a miserable night

2:23Laurie Whitwell: yes that has absolutely come back to haunt me hasn't it that one I'm at a loss really as to what we've just witnessed there because that was totally at odds with any kind of performance you'd expect from Manchester United I mean Andy you summed up didn't you with the tweet that you put out there an affront to United is what Andy said and you said that you did that after sort of half an hour of composing yourself you know it wasn't something done in the heat of the moment no it wasn't

2:51Andy Mitten: not at all

2:51Laurie Whitwell: I mean in fairness you'd think that actually if some of the players acted in the heat at the moment it might have been a better situation because it just felt so disconnected so lacking in energy urgency just such a non-event and that's what Tielemans called it after the game a non-performance but it's like well if you know that that's what's happening can't you do something to arrest it to change it obviously Michael Carrick tried to make well he did make changes at half time in terms of personnel, two subs that I thought were the right subs, but then it disintegrated even further. And Como just was so much better, you know, bullied United physically, ran more, had more coherence about their performance.

3:33Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, it was dreamland for them. Absolute nightmare for United.

3:37Ian Irving: Yeah, let us know in the comments, of course, what you think of what's wrong at the moment, who's to blame, etc, etc. We'll try our best to reflect as many of them as we can do. But Andy, Laurie mentioned the tweet. This is an affront to the name of Manchester United as we speak now at nearly 10 o 'clock on Wednesday evening. That's had nearly a quarter of a million views. It's had over 1 ,000 retweets, 7 ,500 likes. You've clearly struck a note with people.

4:08Andy Mitten: It's how I feel. I'm pretty patient. You know me, people who watch and listen to this podcast know I'm an optimist. frustratingly so at times for some people yeah but this is how i am you know yes i speak honestly i feel incredibly disappointed tonight here in como i thought that performance was one of the worst i've seen from manchester united como were excellent there's some mitigation injuries for manchester united but como also had a lot of injuries as well i did an interview with one of of the best defenders in the Athletic today. He wasn't even playing. And it was said to me by someone who spoke to their manager today, he said, we've only got 15 players.

4:49Andy Mitten: Como was so much better than Manchester United. And it's just these repeat mistakes. You're going behind early and then you're chasing the game. I'd love to be watching a Manchester United game where I don't just feel this doom. I'd love to watch a game where I enjoy it. I'm not enjoying watching them at all at the moment. and you conceding four goals. Tactically, Como were miles better than Manchester United. United have struggled with the press all season and they played into Como's strengths this evening. You could see them pinging the ball from left to right, stretching Manchester United. Cesc Fabregas never expected him to be a coach.

5:26Andy Mitten: He's shown himself to be a very good coach and he does have good resources and he has lots of hungry young players. I was checking out these players, 23 years old, Croatia international, I knew some of them. I didn't know some of the other ones. And they battered Manchester United. It was a front to the name of Manchester United. Now, you would always get a game or two where you lose. Manchester United have not won in seven now. So me saying that is not just about tonight. There's no wins in seven. The team are struggling to score. They cannot keep a clean sheet. And it is desperate times. that away end had emptied well before the end.

6:05Andy Mitten: And it wasn't because of the rain like it was pre-season, before the game at the start, because it had stopped raining. It was because fans were just disconsolate about what they'd seen. And some stayed at the end and they started singing songs against the Glazers. United fans are arguing among each other. The mood is on the floor. And I don't think it's just because of the poor start to the season, but it has been a terrible start to the season. We've won two games. How many now?

6:36Laurie Whitwell: 11. We've been 11.

6:38Andy Mitten: And you're just watching it tonight. Almost all the shots United had, they're nearly at the lake. They were miles over. Lovely goal at the end by Josh Zerkesy but are we really just picking out moments like that or Matthias De Ligt coming back and thinking great, it's good to see him. These are truly desperate times and I asked Michael Carrick the first question in the press conference. I said, how do Manchester United get out of this? What is this? It's a slump. There's repeat patterns here. And Michael has said pretty much before every game, the mood's good, the training's good. We just need decisions to start going our way.

7:17Andy Mitten: But the way I see it, and people might disagree, things are getting worse. They're not getting better. I have no confidence at all that Manchester United can beat Bournemouth at the weekend. I just don't. I had no confidence that United were going to get a result against Como. And I don't know what the solution is. I know people might say, sack him, get rid of him, drop him. I think it's collected. I think it's on the players. It's on the manager. It's on the recruitment. It's on everybody. People we would be praising if things were going well. Things are not going well at the moment. This is really, really bad.

7:53Andy Mitten: I've seen United concede four in Europe before. Saw Barcelona beat United 4-0 in 1994. but that was Barcelona that was because United had to take out several of the best players because of the rules and people like Hansen, Orange, Michael and I was devastated after that game and I thought I'd grow out of this and I'm really bored with myself because I'm not growing out of it I can't even control the actions of people you barely know on a football pitch and you've just been let down week after week I don't think there's an entitlement. I think there's a realism. Didn't expect United to come close to winning the league this year.

8:35Andy Mitten: This is bad. This is really, really bad. Last week against Atletico, United didn't play that badly. They went behind, but didn't play that badly. Didn't play that badly in the first half at Leeds. They were terrible tonight and it got worse.

8:50Ian Irving: It's hard to disagree with anything you said, to be honest. I mean, Lissandro Martinez last week, Laurie, He obviously got himself in the centre of a lot of opinion and argument. He certainly created a lot of thought-provoking from his interview that he gave when he criticised the leadership of Manchester United, the technical director, in his words, the director of football, Jason Wilcox. Tonight with Bruno Fernandes, he's done an interview after the game where it's not as explosive as last week. I'm not saying it's anything like that. but when you listen to his words it certainly feels like he's questioning Michael Carrick when he says that it was a decision from the staff not to press man to man and to leave a bit of space behind when you give the ball to these teams they get confidence you run more when you recover the ball the legs and the brain make it more difficult to make that work he was then asked if the tactics were wrong he says that's on the manager and the staff to say it so again not a great reflection on the moment not a great reflection on the relationships even between the players and Michael Carrick right now.

9:59Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, I mean, obviously Bruno came off, was it 60-something? Early. It was early, so I think that's probably his earliest that I can remember. He was injured at Aston Villa when he came off at half-time, and then there's a 6-1, I think, against Spurs, where he came off early. But that's the earliest I can remember him coming off when it's not been an injury issue. I mean, maybe Carrick's thinking, I'll rest him for Saturday now. the game's gone. Do you think he was thinking that? No, I think Bruno looked, you know...

10:28Andy Mitten: As bad as most of the rest of them.

10:29Laurie Whitwell: He was terrible. He's been terrible for three or four games now. Absolutely entitled to be taken off. Probably left him on too long in Madrid, really, if anything. But Bruno's face looked like, you know, a surprise, I suppose, should we say. He went off the side of the pitch and walked all the way around, went down into the dugout, you know, without sort of... I guess, why would you go and say anything to character at that point? But clearly these answers that he's given, I think I'm right in saying that the question was about lack of cohesion. Can you solve the problems on the pitch? So it didn't mention the coaching staff.

11:01Laurie Whitwell: It wasn't a leading question in that sense. He was asked, were the tactics wrong?

11:06Ian Irving: Which was when he said... But that's the third question.

11:09Laurie Whitwell: So the second question, it's a decision from the staff to not press man-to-man and sometimes leave a little bit of space.

11:15Ian Irving: You're right. That was not directly asked about the staff. It was the one where he says, you know, if the tactics are wrong, that's up to the manager and the staff to say it, basically.

11:22Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, so he's brought up that issue. Now, I've been texting a couple of people immediately, and this is a consistent theme, I suppose. It's not a surprise, but there's an idea that, well, can these players actually go man to man, even if Carrick asked them to? Do they have the energy? Do they have the physical capacity to do it? We saw sometimes in the games them trying to go hard on the Como players, and they got done. They were too slow, and then they opened up more space. And so I think it's partly a result of the players that he's got and the physical attributes that they've got that he's decided to go like this.

12:00Laurie Whitwell: I also think that you can question pre-season and the fitness that was done in pre-season. There's people beyond the Uri Tielemans interview with Rio Ferdinand that I've spoken to that have suggested that that could be something that needs to be investigated and whether you can then even get that back during the season is another question. so you can't absolve Carrick on that score if that is the case but I think it's quite startling that you get in this sort of yeah this kind of unsettled mood now I guess it's pressure there's defeats and certainly high emotions in this environment but you know from where it was last season with Carrick having the kind of Midas touch to now it feels like such a quick you know unravelling and then you come to how the match ended after the final whistle with Carrick going over to the away fans, those that had stayed.

12:56Laurie Whitwell: It was a few dozen, maybe a hundred or so.

13:04Laurie Whitwell: Apologising, hands up immediately. A few times, it did call to mind Ole Gunnar Solskjaer doing the same thing at Watford for one defeat away. I was there. That was more animosity. he was actually getting some stick back, Oli, which was not good to see. And I think I've heard from some people that were in that crowd actually that night and they feel bad about that. But this was more reciprocal. He was applauded back, but he was asked about that comparison in the press conference afterwards. And he said, it's not about me. It's about Manchester United football. And I thought his response is there.

13:36Laurie Whitwell: He was angry. He could tell he was angry. I can only imagine there's been some strong words in the dressing room, but he was very much about these players should play for the football club. It's not about playing for me. It's about Manchester United, which then taps into your comment about it being an affront to United to play like that.

13:54Andy Mitten: But Bruno's thrown his manager under the bus there. And was he right to? You will have some fans who say absolutely yes, because you've got someone who was the best player, who's had a really poor season so far. Why is he having a poor season? Is it because of tactics? Because he's called him out publicly. Unprompted, that's what he has done. Is he disillusioned himself? I don't know. I've not spoken to him about it. Is he a bit injured as well?

14:19Laurie Whitwell: He's carrying injury as well, isn't he?

14:21Ian Irving: The thing with Bruno Fernandes is he's done a lot of interviews at difficult moments. And out of the entire squad, I would say he is the most careful at picking his words. Sometimes, I would say, he's almost pig-headed in picking his words to the point where you're asking him about the game. You've had that experience, right? And you're trying to make sense of what you've seen and what he's seen. and he's certainly challenging your version of events, shall we say. So he knows how to pick the right words when he wants to and those words tonight don't feel like he's batting away the questions, shall we say.

14:59Ian Irving: To me, I read that as criticism of the tactics tonight and the way they were set up by Michael Carrick and his staff, which is not a great look for anyone.

15:09Andy Mitten: It's not good, it's not good. but

15:11Ian Irving: Kerry was asked about that as well

15:12Laurie Whitwell: by the way let me just get the quote up so it's correct yeah it's pretty cutting

15:17Ian Irving: I've got it in front of me here if you can't find it

15:21Laurie Whitwell: we actually were half pressed man to man that second half yeah and there's a little bit of whatever system you play whatever tactics you play if you don't run and you don't run forward and you don't run back you ain't gonna win

15:35Andy Mitten: they've not run all season they've been off it all season that's why the the results have been poor. The players have been poor individually. They've been poor collectively. Como did a number on United right from the start tonight. It looked like a mismatch at times. You've got some of these lads who are 22, 23 years old. They're not superstars. This isn't Laminya Mal or Mbappe. These are lads who are playing in for a team who were getting 3 ,500 four years ago who only got 10 ,000 tonight. They're not a big club. It's a big story. They've got very wealthy owners. They've got a good manager.

16:06Laurie Whitwell: Nico has looked like Mbappe tonight. It's fantastic.

16:09Ian Irving: The thing is, it's not a shock, is it? It's not unexpected. I don't think there's many people going into the game tonight who expected Manchester United to win. I mean, I don't suppose they thought it'd be 4-0 and then 4-1 in stoppage time, but it doesn't feel unprecedented, does it? And that's almost a statement of where things are at the moment. I mean, even the fact I'm now talking about what a manager said about what a captain said in a post-match scenario, it's just like, how are we here again?

16:36Andy Mitten: I said to Laurie before the game, I just hate the feeling I have now because you know what's coming.

16:41Ian Irving: Well, the doom cycle is in full swing, isn't it, basically?

16:45Andy Mitten: Yeah.

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19:46Ian Irving: Alessandro Martinez said in that interview that the result, the performance, the night that they had in Madrid was a mirror of the club. I almost feel like tonight is even more of a mirror of the club because it just feels broken. And you can question, are these players good enough? Is the squad good enough like Martinez did? You could question whether Michael Carrick should continue as a Manchester United manager, given they're on the longest winning run since 2015, 11 years. He says that he takes 100 % responsibility for it. You can obviously then question the leadership, the ownership. You can question the Glazers and the way Ineos are running things at the moment.

20:27Ian Irving: I mean, if they were to remove Michael Carrick as manager, it's just history repeating itself. and I don't know, it just doesn't feel like it's getting better, does it? It doesn't feel like things are improving under this ownership structure, under this leadership. It doesn't feel better than it did before, if anything. It feels like it's getting worse right now, doesn't it?

20:49Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, I mean, when you put the ledger down and you see, you know, give Eric Tenhager a contract extension and then sack him four months later and we know now how exactly he feels about that. Hire Ruben Amarin, who has a different system totally, with some opposition from your executive members. You allow or you kind of get rid of Dan Ashworth, actually, sporting director, in pretty abrupt circumstances. Ruben Amarin then has a disagreement with the director of football. Jason Wilcox is dismissed also. I mean, Carrick came in. The best bit we've had under this regime is Michael Carrick coming in on an interim basis.

21:30Laurie Whitwell: It's been pretty bleak. you know Amarin's reign Ten Hag's reign under them and now this has been bleak and we can sort of say well some of the signings have looked quite good and they're trying to be smart about the recruitment etc etc but when you're in this situation now that's the ultimate barometer of whether you're doing a good job or not it's as clear as that really you mentioned a mirror and it being broken before Ian I'm thinking we've got seven more years bad luck is it I mean it just feels like this is I don't really know how you repair it because we've had nearly 14 years

22:06Ian Irving: similar themes so far so that's two mirrors up to now

22:09Laurie Whitwell: yeah what have we I mean what were we doing in that period under Ferguson like what you know just sort of all the credit being built up that we deserve maybe in that period and now this is the payback for it I guess but yeah it does speak to the kind of wider issues around the club and it goes all the way to the top doesn't it with the Glazers you know that kind of leadership where you're at a distance, but you're also kind of involved and you're kind of setting the parameters for finance and you're paying interest every year. And then it kind of creeps down in terms of, well, what are we really striving for here?

22:44Laurie Whitwell: Is it just to kind of get in the Champions League most seasons so that the commercial value of the club retains? Or is it actually really aspiring towards greatness? You know, it doesn't feel like the latter, does it?

22:56Andy Mitten: the Glazers have been a massive handicap on Manchester United and continue to be so no good can come from the ownership structure and we've talked about it I'd say in most podcasts that we've done now I've been doing these now and before that every single issue of United We Stand has mentioned it as well going back to 2004 it's just been a cloud for so long and it's ruined so much caused so much division. It's just brought a really proud, great football club down and down. The optimist me thinks United will be great again because the club is so big. And I saw today, we both saw people have traveled to Italy without tickets.

23:42Andy Mitten: You know, the level of the fandom. You compare like last night when City, I know United fans sort of joke 20 ,000 empty seats. There was actually 20 ,000 empty seats at City last night. and conversely at United, it sells out every week. The demand, are these people just glutton for punishment, which is coming, but they're incredibly loyal, incredibly passionate, they're incredibly frustrated at the moment, and I don't think the players want to be unsuccessful, I don't think the manager does, I don't think anyone at the club, I think they all want to be successful, but it's not happening, it's just not happening.

24:20Andy Mitten: And Michael Carrick did very well to get the team into the Champions League last year, But this has been a horrendous start to this season. And this season is starting to spiral. We're not making the judgment after a couple of games now. We're 11 games in now. We're near the end of October now. And we're not seeing any evidence that anything is getting better. And when I asked Michael after the game, how do we get out of this? No one knows. I mean, tactically united tonight, I was just alarmed watching it as I am in most matches. What are the assistant coaches doing? you know the tactical brains there as well so there's a lot of frustration and nobody feels it more than the supporters there and michael went over to him after the game and he holds his hands up and he says i'm a fan and he is and that's nice and there's a that's an appreciation but the mood is set by the results and the results are absolutely dreadful at the moment what happens

25:17Ian Irving: next Laurie?

25:19Laurie Whitwell: Very good question. We hit the phones trying to figure that out. Any sense that this could be the end for Carrick or what stage are we at with that? You have to ask that question now. When it's 4-1 defeat in that manner, when there's questions about that in press conference, he was asked a lot about his job and whether he, well one, whether he'd walk away from it two, whether he would have that removed from him by the hierarchy. He didn't want to get into it. Why would he? But equally, he didn't sort of give an absolute affirmative, I will be here, I will make this a success. Remember when Solskjaer sort of said that after the Everton game, the 4-0.

26:01Laurie Whitwell: So you can have moments of defiance like that, but I think he was more focused on how bad that performance was and then what that hints at towards that connection. Because Tanag spoke about this toxic culture that he felt because the leadership wouldn't fully support him on matters of ill discipline. And Carrick, to his credit, I asked him that yesterday and he said, no, that's not been my experience. Obviously, he'd been winning before this point in his tenure. So I couldn't understand that being the case. But I also think that there are clearly elements where you would say there's issues there because you've got Bruno Fernandes speaking as he has done.

26:40Laurie Whitwell: And I would also say Bruno Fernandes, I think, has been the shining beacon for United for years. And so if he wants to voice an opinion, he can do. But then it does hint at, I don't know, disagreements behind the scenes that then you get aired and is that the right way to go about it? But yeah, I mean, the wider question also is then, as I've just discussed with Ten Hag and Ameren, would you actually trust this leadership to then make the right appointment next? What have they shown so far in that department? to really justify their role in all this because those selections, the only one that's worked has been Carrick on an interim basis.

27:25Laurie Whitwell: And who are the options out there, really? Are there any that really appealed to you?

27:29Ian Irving: No, not that I've seen.

27:30Laurie Whitwell: I don't know if there are to me.

27:32Ian Irving: Once upon a time, there was a meeting where Jose Mourinho, Pep Guardiola, Carlo Ancelotti, David Moyes, some of the top managers in the world, some of the top managers at the time in the Premier League, were being discussed as who would be the next manager of Manchester United. And unfortunately, the candidates that have been rumoured and mentioned are not really in that company, are they? So the issue is, Andy, they've tried everything, aren't they? They've tried the proven winners. They've tried the up-and-coming coaches. They've tried the club legends. And we still come back to this. There's been different leadership, different chief executives, different even football directors but we still come back to this yeah and we keep coming back to

28:19Andy Mitten: it and a load of money has been spent and a lot of it has been wasted there's been some good moments you know not the glory days but there's been some trophies there's been some good individual wins but manchester united have not been good enough for the size of the club on a consistent basis and it's just become this car crash where you know what's coming next and you think can we ever get out of this doom cycle. I met a Juventus fan today and he just said, we're like Man United, we're stuck in that cycle. And I've not paid too much attention to Juventus. He said, it's more recent, but we just can't get out of it.

28:53Andy Mitten: Like there's these invisible powers just stopping Juventus doing well again. And there's many reasons why Manchester United are not the preeminent force they were. And one of them is the strength of the rivals and the financial strength of the rivals and the financial strength of the league and some of those rivals have not done things by the book none of them have helped Manchester United but Manchester United's own house has not been in an order and I think when Ineos came in they felt that okay the club's not been run well we can do it we can improve things and I don't think you'll find fans agreeing with that at the moment because they're now building up a body of appointments and evidence where people are thinking well we're losing more games and we're winning.

29:38Andy Mitten: Things are getting worse. There's this slide where you're not expecting Manchester United to win trophies. Start of the season, I'll look back under Michael Carrick and think recruitment had improved. But you're looking at players and thinking that they look a shadow of where they did four or five months ago. And that baffles me. How have they just become so bad? How's they gone from being a winning machine to a losing one?

30:04Laurie Whitwell: And that goes back to culture, doesn't it? That goes back to we can turn it on for a bit when the right conditions are there, one game a week, interim manager. But then also you can see some of them probably thinking, well, the window wasn't good. So then you get disillusioned in that way. But they should still commit and fight for the club and do everything on the pitch that they can do. So, yeah, but it comes back to, you know, I'm plugging my interview again but he comes back to he's an interview I should have mentioned it little known figure in the football world yeah I didn't read it

30:44Andy Mitten: I just read the aggregated bits

30:45Laurie Whitwell: of Lourdes there was enough of it I actually read your Trevor Chalabar interview

30:50Andy Mitten: did you?

30:51Laurie Whitwell: yeah no one else did that was the big athletic interview this week was it? if you don't know

30:57Ian Irving: what we're talking about Laurie has done an exclusive chat if you've been living under a rock the last 48 hours or so with the former Manchester United manager eric ten haag if you want to read it in full it's available to go and read on the athletic right now a big thank you to everyone who's joined us yeah big thank you to everyone who's joined us on the live stream on youtube we are live as i speak now the comments are flooding in keep them coming uh and thank you to everyone who's got involved with this if you're listening along on the podcast get yourself subscribed on youtube get the notifications on if we ever go live in the future.

31:32Ian Irving: A little bit impromptu like we've done tonight, then obviously you'll get a notification to let you know that we are on. But thank you to everyone who's with us. And we're talking about Manchester United's defeat to Como. We're talking about exactly what it means for the club, for the hierarchy, for Michael Carrick, for the players. There are questions on everyone right now. I mean, just going back to something you said before, Laurie, really about the culture of the club. I just find it really difficult to difficult to read quotes from people where they're saying the motivation purpose and intensity wasn't right tonight that's what Michael Carrick said about his team they're just the absolute basics aren't they I mean they're they're the sorts of things that should be a given shouldn't they you know running even which again has been another point that he's mentioned afterwards because no matter what you think about the way the club's being run or the transfer window or anything like that, this group of players and this manager have shown that they're much better than this moment, even aside from all the other arguments that there are.

32:33Ian Irving: It has to be better even with what they've got.

32:36Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I suppose you go back to the top end of the pitch and the back end of the pitch where you've got no striker at the moment. I mean, in Bumo's, you're basically your striker, really. He's not playing striker. Well, that's it. Not from the start. No, it was sort of this, you know. And then we can ask the character question, was that the right choice in that moment? It felt better when Ahmad came on. Ahmad was doing more of that stuff that you want, urgency in your play, getting the ball. I just kept looking at Paz and thinking, oh, what a player. But then he'd probably come to United and just be swallowed up as well.

33:13Laurie Whitwell: I was looking at Carlos Believer

33:14Ian Irving: giving the ball away for one of the goals and thinking, oh, he's been sucked in now. He's chipping balls over people's heads at Leeds a few days ago and he's in the vortex now.

33:23Laurie Whitwell: But he came on and straight away he's like, right, yeah, that's the energy one. That's the bite in midfield that you need. And then he was complacent, wasn't he? And I think he does have that in his game. He just wasn't aware of the risk of that pass that he was trying to make. And it's Paz that executes it perfectly. What an interesting player he is. Sort of strong running, obviously great on his left foot. It's not like the most beautiful kind of player. He doesn't glide as such, but he's kind of just absolutely functional and always felt threatening.

33:54Andy Mitten: Did you see when Santos tried to stop him, got to book him for it?

33:57Laurie Whitwell: You could see that coming a mile off that slide. Happened before, didn't it, I think? Yeah, well, that's why he came off at half-time, right? I mean, I don't think he was the worst performer, Santos, but he was on a booking, so can you risk getting another sending off in a Champions League game? And then at the back end of the pitch, you've got De Ligt playing for the first time in a year. That wouldn't be...

34:15Ian Irving: I mean, credit to him for lasting as long as he did, to be fair. You know what I mean? Absolutely. you could tell

34:20Laurie Whitwell: it wasn't you could tell the rust there oh yeah it's going to be

34:24Andy Mitten: he's not played for a year has he and he needed you tonight because we've not got any players yeah because of the injuries yeah injuries are bad aren't they well there was

34:32Ian Irving: nine missing through injury and Lenny Oro with suspension I mean the Benjamin Sesco situation like we've talked about is hugely concerning as well because it doesn't feel like we'll get clarity

34:41Laurie Whitwell: on that soon

34:42Ian Irving: anytime soon does it

34:43Laurie Whitwell: no I think

34:45Andy Mitten: that it's a big miss I like him as a player I thought he was doing really well towards the end of last season. I like loads about him. And then when we spoke to him after a game, was it the Ipswich?

34:53Laurie Whitwell: Sabah.

34:54Andy Mitten: Sabah game.

34:55Laurie Whitwell: He'd scored and he was like, I'm over it.

34:57Andy Mitten: Yeah, I'm over it. I'm going to be a bit better than Messi in a few weeks. And then just gets injured again. And he doesn't want to be injured. And Michael Carrick's got to take all of these negatives on board and it just weighs it down even further. And you've got talented players who are getting on. Harry Amass, Shea Lacey come on, but they're not coming on in ideal circumstances when you're three or four down. It's really difficult for them as well. It was just a difficult night. The weather was terrible, wasn't it?

35:22Laurie Whitwell: Well, the rain's busted my laptop. I had it out on last night in my laptop bag. This is the world's smallest violin. I appreciate it. I was going to say, so you've had a trip over to Como

35:32Ian Irving: and the weather was a bit bad. I do feel for the pair of you. Did you get a little bit wet? That's a shame, isn't it?

35:37Andy Mitten: What is it? Midnight. I've not even checked into my hotel, mate, yet. You can get me a little violin out now.

35:42Laurie Whitwell: So you're in the closed restaurant of Laurie's Hotel, are you? Is that right? Yeah. Can you see it? What do you think to the background? Can't really see much. We tried to make it a bit lighter, but honestly, I think there's like one light in here that's working.

35:54Andy Mitten: My hotel's like 10 miles from here. All I've eaten today is like sandwiches and stuff and been meeting the United fans and there's some good stories and I can tell them now because the game's finished. So there were Reds all over that stadium by hook or by crook, all over the main stand. People were just turning up and it was good to see. But they were spooked a little bit because they got a message saying, no English in these sections. So they very quickly reassigned themselves with new nationalities. There were a number of Irishmen, Australians, Canadians, Americans, all walking into that main stand tonight.

36:32Andy Mitten: It was a multicultural fan base. Yeah, but they actually live in Manchester, all of them.

36:37Ian Irving: How deep did it go? Was their accents put on? Was their appropriate attire worn for different nationalities?

36:44Laurie Whitwell: Don't try girls to do accents at the end of a lot. not on a live stream a long long day

36:49Ian Irving: where it can't be where it can't be it was a wild day wasn't it

36:52Andy Mitten: yeah yeah it was I mean look at it from their perspective this is like Stockport County getting in the Champions League

36:59Laurie Whitwell: I thought of Edgley Park when I saw that away stand not with a roof on it I mean even Edgley Park has got a roof on it it's like the old

37:05Ian Irving: Gene Kelly at Main Road have stood in that and got soaked before now

37:18Laurie Whitwell: Hey, it's your ceiling vent, so I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed, or does he just own a ladder?

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38:58Ian Irving: right let's let's talk about what happens next because you know we're not sure enough stadium exactly yeah and rain and whatever else um we're not sure about actually they kept they kept taking

39:08Laurie Whitwell: my umbrella off me by the way and then there's loads of umbrellas in the stadium but there's Smother's violin. Yeah, nobody cares, mate. Yeah, okay, great.

39:15Ian Irving: When we're sort of looking at what happens next, aside from a decision on the future of Michael Carrick or anything else, United have got to play football again at the weekend. They've got to go into Old Trafford and try. Do they have to?

39:25Laurie Whitwell: Do they have to?

39:26Ian Irving: The only thing worse than watching Manchester United at the moment is talking about it, isn't it? To be honest, it's hard work putting these podcasts together. We enjoy doing it, of course, and we appreciate the support from everyone, but sometimes you'd like to just switch the telly off and go to bed. But anyway, somehow they've got to play again. Somehow they've got to pull something together at Old Trafford at the weekend. It's only a few days away. Bournemouth actually are in action against Ruben Amarins, Milan, on Thursday. He's back in England for that game. I'm sure he'll be asked all about Manchester United.

39:58Laurie Whitwell: I think I saw a quote. It was just a real quote then. He said, I miss United. Did he say that to me?

40:02Ian Irving: I love that club or something like that. I love that club. I mean, yeah. I'm sure he does now. You're not having it, are you? I don't know. But it obviously just is another manager that's not what it's out.

40:13Laurie Whitwell: Just wait two years for Andy to do the exclusive interview with him where he talks about culture and all that.

40:18Ian Irving: Exactly, and history repeats itself all over again. But yeah, I mean, United haven't beaten Bournemouth in three and a half years either in any competition, at any venue. It doesn't feel like a game to cheer things up. But what is the mood going to be like, Andy, at Old Trafford on Sunday for that game?

40:37Andy Mitten: I honestly think fans do like a reset and they'll walk to that stadium, go in to watch their team and I think they'll want their team to win and they'll get behind the team. But recent events will not be far from the surface and the mood can turn far quicker because there's not much credit in the bank because it has been really, really bad. But if United were to start well against Bournemouth, then I think the fans would be behind them. They're incredibly loyal and supportive, but also deeply frustrated. And if United were to lose against Bournemouth, you're going to see more boos. Bournemouth, didn't they have those consecutive 3-0 wins followed by that 4-4 draw at Old Trafford?

41:19Ian Irving: That's right, yeah.

41:21Andy Mitten: I have very little confidence in Manchester United getting a result at the weekend. And I hate myself for this, because even going into the stadium against Asletico last week, I thought we'd win. And for the first time now, I've given up. So I'm hoping that it's like reverse psychology. But I have officially given up now. I think Bournemouth will win 3-4-1.

41:44Laurie Whitwell: You could become a Bournemouth fan, couldn't you? Why? We've done a really good club on the south coast.

41:49Andy Mitten: It pins into my eyes just because we're Bournemouth. We've built a new stand. We've 16 new seats in because we've got into Europe.

41:55Laurie Whitwell: Of course, Andy brings it back onto stadiums.

41:57Andy Mitten: No, no. But look, Bummer for a well-run club, but they've been struggling this year, probably because of the extra games with European football. But you know, Tottenham were struggling and came to Old Trafford and absolutely battered United for the first 25 minutes. So it's no marker of anything, is it?

42:14Ian Irving: No, they got the first win of the season in the Premier League last weekend against Sunderland. I saw them on the opening weekend. I think it was away to Manchester City and they lost, but they played very well. It was only a late turnaround that denied them victory at the Etihad. In fact, the 4-0 draw last season, Laurie, that was Ruben Amarin trying to save his job, wasn't it?

42:33Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, I'd done a little piece before that about the change in formation and little did I know exactly how big that topic would become and be. And he kind of resisted it a bit, didn't he, in that game?

42:44Andy Mitten: And then Wolves was next, wasn't it? The Wolves had home.

42:47Laurie Whitwell: Was it not Newcastle after that? Because he then definitely did change it to Newcastle.

42:51Ian Irving: It wasn't a great December, was it? They never are in recent years. No. But yeah, Bournemouth have come to Old Trafford three times in a row in December and United haven't beaten them. So let's hope that October brings something different. But it's just very hard to see this changing, Andy, isn't it? When you've got players seemingly arguing with managers about how they're going to play, when you've got players speaking out about the ownership, you've got players being questioned for even the effort that they've put in in a game. Yeah. There's so much to sort out, isn't there?

43:20Andy Mitten: Yeah, there is. And it is hard to see it changing. I do believe Michael Carrick wants to do well I do believe the coaches do I do believe all the players do I think everyone who works at Manchester United there's a lot of really good people work at that football club who get pulled down by this they're trying their very best they want United to do well just like the fans want the club to do well but they're not doing well there's a football club and it's a results business and the results have been shocking really really bad I thought you were going to say something else then what? SH. Yeah. Well, they've been both, haven't they?

43:59Andy Mitten: And this is where we are right now. This is where we are right now. You can't do a rallying call because there's very little evidence that there's anything to rally.

44:10Laurie Whitwell: The players have got to look at themselves, whatever about the club, and definitely there's huge issues from the top. And that's why I would say you see the passion that Carrick speaks with and immediately the tactical identification of the issue around what Bruno said, for example. So he's obviously got that in him and you felt like you were getting a lot of the real Michael Carrick. But I can speak passionately. True, okay. Anyone can speak passionately.

44:39Ian Irving: When a manager thinks he's going, he starts tearing everyone down. So he'd be more critical openly about individual players, about the way he's been backed, about the entire thing. In the past, we've had people questioning all sorts of stuff. when they feel like they're on the way out. What did you read from Carrick's demeanour, Laurie, being around him after the game? Yeah, because it wasn't necessarily defiance, was it?

45:03Laurie Whitwell: Because he wasn't overt in saying, I will sort this out. He was just very isolated on that performance and it not being good enough and why, and his anger and the emotion of it all. I know what you're saying there, what does that ultimately mean when it comes to getting results on a pitch. But I do think there's something to be said for him, clearly. He said, I work around the clock. And we were getting into this territory of, do all the players do that then? And that's, again, this perennial question that we keep coming back to. Because you've got this club that's so big, so many eyeballs, there's so much money at play, how much do you really want this as a player?

45:44Laurie Whitwell: And I think Carrick can look them in the eyes and speak from his own experiences and tell them what it takes. So I think that is a good quality to have. And if you take Carrick out of the situation, what will change?

45:56Andy Mitten: What will change?

45:57Laurie Whitwell: I'm not saying that he's the best manager in the world and that he absolutely should get a 10-year contract or anything like that, but I just don't know who would come in now and there'd be a particular shift. And then you're kind of in this cycle again. It'd be a third manager in three years, change mid-season. It would just depress me, to be honest.

46:19Andy Mitten: depressing us now. And I think he has spoken well in adversity, but what does that even mean? And he said it's taken a huge amount out of him and his life. Not looking for sympathy. I love the way that he said, I don't love it because I'm completely annoyed with everything, about the players playing for him. So it's not about me, it's about the club playing for Manchester United. And that's a good point. I think he's given it his all, but if he goes and someone else comes in, what does that person, how does that person change it? We can't just be cursed forever, can we? We can't be here in like 50 years.

46:51Andy Mitten: And this is what I'm saying. I was thinking about the things that had happened.

46:53Laurie Whitwell: So who's walked under a ladder? What's the black cat one? Something happened when Fergie was manager and with just all this luck now is just, you know.

47:03Ian Irving: But it's got to be ultimately the way it's been run, isn't it? You know, over all these years. Let's get practical. Whoever's been in charge, no matter the situation, it's got to come back to that, hasn't it? Because like you say, you can change managers. you can change players. We've even shown you can change leadership members, but it's always coming back to the same thing. So ultimately, it's got to be something deeper than just what we're seeing on the pitch tonight, hasn't it? It's got to be the whole culture and ecosystem around Manchester United that's broken at the moment.

47:34Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, it's because you've got this unsettled ownership, really, where, you know, who's in charge? And therefore, you've got people kind of competing for positions. You know, in terms of like getting deals done, you know they've got to people have got to speak to four or five different people and you kind of got them get them all on board and you know there's different motivations at play there so it doesn't feel like anyone's properly you know when it was it was easy when it was ferguson and gill because they knew they were the the head honchos they could get stuff done if they wanted to get it done there's there's more you know sort of gaps i suppose in this kind of structure and it's got to be the right people it's got to be smart people people that care people that work throughout and I'm not saying that's not the case right now but that's what it needs but even with

48:16Ian Irving: that the tactics have to be better the approach to the games has to be better that the way the players carry out the instructions has to be better you cannot have you cannot have situations where the very basic things like effort and motivation and body language too much space

48:34Laurie Whitwell: for paths to begin with straight out the gate you just to pick the i looked at it and go how How's he got so much space? Yeah. Three minutes.

48:41Ian Irving: You can't be questioning these things. They are things that as individual players you can look after and ensure are right. And as a coaching staff and a management team, you can ensure that details like that are right, no matter what's going on above you. So that's where it becomes really difficult to know who to blame. When Carrick sort of says everyone's to blame, I understand that because it is really difficult to be able to differentiate where blame lies because it just feels like nothing's quite working right now. You can't have a situation where the team is on a losing streak or a winless streak like they are right now.

49:18Ian Irving: And it not leads to deeper questions, obviously. And obviously, over the next few days, keep your eyes on the Athletic for the latest on the reaction to tonight. What happens? But yeah, it just feels depressing, really, doesn't it, that we're in this situation again. and we're having to do podcasts like this again. Right, let's leave it there then. Let's get Andy in his car and off to his hotel because it is late and it has been a very long day. And we appreciate you, Andy. We appreciate you, Laurie. We appreciate the company, the insight, the conversation. Thank you to everyone who's joined us as well on YouTube at this hour, who's got involved in the comments.

49:58Ian Irving: I'm sorry, I can't keep up with them. I'm going to have to work out a better way to pick out what people are having to say. give us one

50:05Andy Mitten: you've not even picked one out

50:07Ian Irving: Sam I'd say Andy Mitten helped save Manchester United Football Club and then Breen's has called us biased is that your

50:14Laurie Whitwell: burner account

50:15Ian Irving: so there's the two things lots of people are saying goodnight goodnight John thank you for that Rob's complaining because no comments in which way are we biased by the way I don't know

50:25Laurie Whitwell: I don't know

50:26Ian Irving: like I say it's very difficult to keep up with them I need to get better at live streaming basically so my apologies yeah come on look at yourself

50:33Laurie Whitwell: before you ask questions to Carrick and look at yourself on this live stream

50:37Ian Irving: but it is interesting to see people's live reaction coming into what we're having to say so we do appreciate it and we'll be back after Bournemouth whatever happens on Talk to the Devils like I say for the moment keep your eyes on The Athletic for the very latest on everything with Manchester United go and check out Laurie Zerrit Ten Haag interviews on there as well done the interview

50:56Andy Mitten: with Ten Haag

50:57Ian Irving: Trevor Chaliver and Andy's Trevor Chaliver

51:00Andy Mitten: interview as well lovely lad Trev shame he didn't play tonight. Lovely life story.

51:05Ian Irving: Yeah.

51:06Andy Mitten: The only people who've read it are Chelsea fans.

51:08Ian Irving: I can't even say tee it up for the second leg because that doesn't exist anymore in the league phase of the Champions League, does it?

51:15Andy Mitten: Well, it's the centre-half. We could sign him.

51:17Ian Irving: Yeah, true. Anyway, thank you Andy and Laurie. Thanks for staying up late in the hotel room in Como and joining us. Thank you everyone for joining us on the live stream and thank you for listening or watching. If you're catching up with us later on, it will get better. When it does, I'm not sure, but stick with us if you can. we'll see you on the next one take care bye-bye

51:59Ian Irving: the athletic fc

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