Man United to bring Marcus Rashford back into fold?

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2:00This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, we discuss the continuing riddle of Marcus Rashford. Can the club reintegrate... I knew I was going to fuck that up. Reintegrate. I did it when we were talking about it before, sorry. This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, it's a continuing riddle with Marcus Rashford now. and the latest situation seems like he is heading for a reintegration at United. We asked the question how that will be done, how difficult it could be, what are the pros, what are the cons of Rashford being back in red.

2:41There's a question over that academy graduate, but a lot more of them put their cases forward in the Rosenberg route in Manchester United's pre-season friendly. We'll have the details on that. And there's also been some controversy over United's action to restrict some season ticket holders' accounts. We'll also talk about that too. Hello everyone, welcome along. Andy, Carl and Laurie all here. A nice simple topic to kick us off. Laurie, how difficult will it be to reintegrate Marcus Rashford if indeed Manchester United do decide to reintegrate him to the squad? Almost as difficult as you saying the word reintegration, I guess.

3:21Full disclosure, that was the second attempt at the introduction. Yeah, I mean, I think this is the huge question right now, isn't it, for Manchester United? Because he's such a player of high status, high significance. And there's a lot of questions about what United are going to do on that left side. And is it going to be a left back, a left winger? That's what they've been looking at. Well, actually, does Marcus Rashford coming back, is that realistic? And does that then change the picture there? I think this is something that's been kind of bubbling along a little bit, obviously since Barcelona decided to go for Anthony Gordon instead of triggering that loan option to buy for Marcus Rashford which was the expectation.

4:04I think everybody when that deal was signed thought that Rashford would go to Barcelona, do what he did which was feature significantly, not be a starter every week but certainly contribute pretty well to a successful season for Barcelona overall and then he would become a permanent Barcelona player but that move for Gordon changed the picture and then subsequently Barcelona have signed Karim Adeyemi as well from Borussia Dortmund. So even the thought that maybe they could come back to the table later in the window, this will all be part of a negotiation tactic to get even a lower deal. And that should be then another player in that forward line.

4:40That seems to be totally gone now with that signing. So obviously that means that are there other teams available for him? We can see that the clause in his contract that allowed him to go for£40 million has elapsed. And so as the days and weeks have gone on, you're looking at it thinking, and people certainly around the picture are thinking that this reintegration could well happen. And it feels like that at the moment is the plan, right? He has three weeks off after being at the World Cup. And then I think you're getting to the Dublin week where United go away and then they play Leeds on the Wednesday that week.

5:14So that's when they're going to have a little camp. And you expect Rashford at the moment to be around the team at that point. So, yeah, I'm sort of hesitating to say confidently that he will pull on the United shirt again. That certainly felt like such a remote possibility previous to that point. But now it feels like actually that is a legitimate possibility. I think there will be a lot of issues around it just because of the way that he left the club. I think there'll probably have to be some talks about is he OK with coming back to United in that way? where, you know, how does Michael Carrick see him?

5:52Obviously, Carrick is a different manager to Ruben Amorim. He's worked with him before. He's played alongside him. So you've got that relationship there already established. Certainly, it's not going to be a case like it was under Amorim, you know, with the sanctioning of this current executive team that there was a bomb squad and Rashford was part of that. And there was reasons for that. It's going to be a case of having a look at what his sort of mentality is, what United want from him if he is to return. and then sort of see how it goes once he's back. Because I think certainly it's going to be such a big story and there's more details that we can get into as this conversation develops.

6:28But it just feels like we're at now a point where talking about it, it is sensible because it could happen. A lot to unpack in that answer unquestionably. Andy, I mean, I suppose the most obvious question to follow up is, is this now the most likely scenario as we talk Monday morning, just gone half past nine, that in two weeks' time Marcus Rashford will be back part of Manchester United's first-team squad? Yes, it is. Clearly so. I would have said in February, March, there would be a 5-10 % chance of Marcus Rashford playing for Manchester United again. I'd say there's now an 80 % chance of Marcus Rashford playing for United again.

7:09Even two weeks ago, I would have said 50-50. Last week, I would have said 50-50. And the reasons, which Laurie's touched on, lead me to say that on the 27th of July the situation can always change but the way I see it at the moment is is Marcus Rashford he's going to come back he's going to train with Manchester United's players and Michael Carrick would be open to using using him again it's a tricky one what what do you do you know he was successful at Villa on loan he was successful at Barcelona he wanted to stay at Barcelona. Cantiflick really liked him, but Barcelona didn't trigger the option they had to sign him.

7:49And nobody else has come in to try and sign him as well. So he's an employee of Manchester United. Do you put him out in a bomb squad again when actually he's gone away and he's done well and he's been professional? I was all over him playing for Barcelona. I didn't hear of a single thing that he did wrong. I think he arrived two minutes late for training one day and that's about it he had a good season so he comes back in and then that leads on to wider issues of how the fan base will take it because a lot of fans absolutely wouldn't like it and a lot of fans are more open to it and then it's ever-changing i remember lorry and i stood outside the away end at wolves a couple of years ago and you couldn't find a single united fan who wanted rashford to play for the club again now how many people just beat him 30 40 and then four minutes into the game he scored and the united fans are singing for marcus rashford so wait a minute do you want it both ways you can have it both ways you just change your tune like that marcus rashford starts playing for united and score him again the the narrative around him will will change he will be judged by what he does on a football pitch but i honestly thought his race had been run and i think he did as well as a Manchester United player but he's got a contract the bottom line is he's got a contract at Manchester United.

9:11Karl is it a good idea? I think it depends on what version Marcus Rashford returns if it's the Marcus Rashford who played very well on Derekton Harkin's very first season this is in theory a no-brainer if it's the Marcus Rashford that looked very laborious under Ruben Amrum then it's going to get really really difficult Marcus Rashford is one of the highest paid players at Manchester United which means he's one of the highest paid players in the Premier League which means he's one of the highest paid players in the world and at top form he is up there with some of the best left wingers in the world the problem is he's not always at that level and when you factor in other things I'd say on the field so his relative lack of defensive effort things get really really sketchy so to bring in a player of Marcus Rashford back to Manchester United, yeah, if you get him fit, firing at that top level, fantastic.

10:03You get a brand new option to go along with Cunha, you put less pressure on Patrick Dorgou to play at left wing, and you have new tools to help Michael Carrick achieve whatever he wants to achieve. If it's a football player who is somewhere close to how he played under Ralph Ragnick or how he played in the second season of Eric Dillian Haag, where he didn't seem to gel very well with Rasmus Hojland then it creates tactical complications that I think quite a few Manchester United fans don't necessarily want look I've been in Finland and I've been in Norway with Andy and I've had two or three Manchester United fans ask me is Rashid coming back and then they've given me their opinion on Marcus Rashid and the one that comes a lot comes through a lot is if he comes back he has to make an effort there is this there will two or three fans that just believe he just stopped trying towards the end of his time at United before he went off to Aston Villa at least so he has to work it's I don't even think he has to score goals at the start that's always nice but it is going to be questions of what is he doing off the ball is he is he is his hands going to be on his hips is he going to be throwing his hands in the air when the referee doesn't give him a foul after he loses the ball is he going to chase that ball back so I'm not going to say the door is back open, it's more like a window at this current point in time, but there definitely seems to be some you need to work on that relationship between yourself, the dressing room and indeed the families.

11:30Yeah, it's complicated. Laurie, just looking at the sort of data for Rashford as well it's actually 19 months since he last played for Manchester United pretty much. It was a 2-1 win at Victoria Pilsen in the Champions League. He was taken off early in that game before the hour mark. didn't have a brilliant match at all was then left out of the squad for the Manchester Derby I think a few days later and he's not been seen again for Manchester United but actually across his time at the club I mean he's 13th in the all-time scorers list 138 goals he's scored he's only 12 off the top 10 he's 23rd in the all-time appearances list as well 426 appearances for United 103 off the top 10 on that list as well.

12:17Even looking at him during the time he's been away, and we've established that the performances at Villa and Barcelona, even during the World Cup for England, there is a player there, isn't there? There's clearly something there, but is there too much water under the bridge? Did too much go wrong in that period before he left for Aston Villa that it just makes it too hard to make this happen and be successful? That's what I thought, to be honest. I thought there was a finality to the way that he left for Villa and then also to Barcelona. And it just wasn't going to be that the Rashford story United had been told.

12:52And now circumstances change, don't they? They develop and certainly there's been a lot of water under the bridge. And that's why I say that the kind of reintroduction of him, if it is to happen, would perhaps need to have some openness of communication from, I guess, all parties. an appreciation of the change dynamic for his status, for United's desires and ambitions. So, for example, you look at him for England at the World Cup and he still has that electric speed, I think, in moments and actually a clarity of thought, certainly for that assist for Saka, for example, in the France game. I know that was a crazy game where France decided just to play a ridiculously high line and Rashford was there to take advantage of that.

13:36His goal against Croatia was really well taken as well, though. So you sort of think in moments, if he's on board with it, and obviously it shouldn't just be his call, it should be United's, absolutely, and Carrick's. But if that's how they would see him, as a kind of impact sub when the game becomes stretched, then obviously he's a threat. So that's why I suppose this kind of concept of him returning has developed. I still do wonder are they taking a different approach the last time where it was very clear that he was available and that then perhaps lessened United's position in negotiations like if he's coming back into the squad and they're happy to have him then if a club does want him they would have to actually significantly contribute to his wages that's the big thing isn't it, who can actually afford the wages, do United have to accept that they would contribute to a significant part of that for him to go.

14:34But I think you'd already have sense that there would be clubs there for him at this point, if that was the case. Maybe something develops and somebody gets injured and then clubs react to that and think he's a player that's achieved a lot, been in the Champions League, been in the World Cup. So you don't have that issue of how would he feel under the pressure of going to a big club. But you just sort of wonder about the pool of options for him. How big is it? So that's why I think United have to take a realistic approach and that's why it seems like they are to looking at him coming back. Now, obviously, then the counterpoint to that is how much of a story he would be each week.

15:13Do United, are they comfortable with that? It's difficult when you've got a contract. He's 20-28 when terms run out. This is going to be an issue until he even leaves permanently or he kind of is reintegrated and people are comfortable with it. On the bench, there's going to be a story about it. If he's kind of selected behind, say, Patrick Dorgoo, is he okay with that? And it shouldn't just be his call. Like I say, it has to be a collaborative thing. But yeah, that's why it's a very complex one, very difficult one. And I think that it'll continue to produce interesting moments as we go along.

15:54And I think you are right about bringing up the records as well. There's obviously certain targets that he could hit, 100 goals, I think is one of them. And so, is there a certain appeal there? Could you kind of get people behind that? Because I think the fans' aspect of it, as Andy's touched on there, it's going to be fascinating to see who would be willing to sing his name again, given how fractured it got towards the end. And you'd have to perhaps really push the point of him, how much he did give to the club before those years and he shouldered the club clearly in times of great difficulty.

16:29But yeah, it's just... I thought we were kind of done talking about Marcus Rashford at United. I thought that was it. But here we are and I think it actually increased now given the way things have gone. One thing in that that really stood out to me and Andy, I wonder what your take on this is. We've heard so much about the wage bill at Manchester United in recent times about signing footballers who really wanted to play for Manchester United, not because they were getting the biggest wage offer necessarily, but that there was a genuine passion for the club or a genuine ambition to play for the club.

17:03Of course, the wages are still huge, but maybe not as big as they could get at other clubs. Rashford being used as an impact player seems to be an idea that quite a lot of people are getting on board with. Laurie mentioned it a moment ago as well. But if he is going to be playing like that sort of role, there's going to be people ahead of him in the team who are paid maybe half what Rashford is currently on. How much of a problem is that going to be? Depends what the players think. United has snookered a little bit here because he does have that contract. Let's flip it another way. Manchester lad, United fan, Marcus Rashford.

17:41Yeah. If he plays another 100 games, he's in the top 10 all-time Manchester United appearance holders. After the game in Wrexham last week, I spoke to Sam Smith. Sam came through the ranks at United with Marcus. Sam was very, very close friends with Marcus. He still is very close friends, and he's a big, big advocate. So if I ever wrote anything critical of Marcus, he'd be on my case. And most of the stuff I wrote about Marcus in his time at Manchester United was positive because for most of the time, he was an influential player. he came through right from scoring a hat-trick PSV when he was a kid in 2015.

18:19There were a lot of good moments, but there were a lot of bad moments as well. And Sam said last week, Marcus can be one of the best players in the world when he's on form. And we've seen glimpses of that. We've seen seasons of that. And we've also seen months and seasons, and we've touched on them then, like under the time under Ralph Rangnick, when he's been anything but that. I don't think there'll be a lot of patience from fans towards Marcus Rashford. I don't think his situation is beyond recovery because if he's playing well and United are winning, the mood changes around everybody. Football fans can change their tune like the wind.

19:00I suspect Marcus is in a better place now than he was a couple of years ago. Private life, he's seen how the other half live, he's enjoyed himself, he's maybe seen getting out of manchester's probably been a good thing for him as well and there are pressures that come when you're a mancunian playing for united that you will never have even if you're from sheffield like harry maguire or let alone the lads who are from outside of the country and maybe he's been able to see his own situation with more clarity i think he could help himself with the media i think if there's some honesty from him where he said okay this is some of this was on me as well you know i think people would warm to to that idea and some of the points he's made have been legitimate ones playing under numerous managers um hasn't helped him being asked to change his style of play like that he has got some pretty serious advocates as well there's people like paul mcginnis the former youth coach who would be massive supporters of of Marcus Rashford but the fans who pay the money also know what they see and he got to a point where you had these memes of him failing to trap back I think it was at Luton away in February 24 I was in Pilsen in that December game and he was awful now he's not the first Manchester United player to have an awful football game but when that happens fans are entitled to be to be critical for so so long I would say in on here I've not completely given up on him and I still haven't Maybe that's my personality.

20:35I wouldn't put it beyond him coming back and playing well. Because he has something none of us have. He has got an incredible talent. He's still fast. I watched him closely at Barcelona. His first touch wasn't the best. He was surrounded by players who were technically better than him. But wow, he's still got that speed. His stats were good. He could assist. He could score. He wasn't Lemay and Jamal, who is. but he's still got some and we saw little bits of it in the world cup as well not all the time but we've seen bits of it and if he's fit you know united's left side is really interesting because you've got patrick dorgue you've got someone like kunya who can play there as well you can have a season where you're playing a lot more games so kunya's going to be rotated around the different systems dorgue's still raw off his box you know we i saw him in the mix zone last week in elsinque I was just laughing, you know, he said almost nothing.

21:32And then he does goals like that goal at Arsenal. Whoa, where's that come from? And the way he talks, I asked him about his time at Lecce. Yeah, they just told the players, give me the ball. What, is that it? Yeah, just give me the ball because I'm better than them and I'll just score. And then United are looking at a player on the left behind someone who can cover or compete with Luke Shaw because you've got a lot more games. It's very hard while United have got Marcus Rashford to go out and buy someone who's further advanced. It was only in December United tried to sign Antoine Semenya. He would have played in that position.

22:10So this is a moving feast all of the time, but I think we're covering it between us all here. We're talking about a subject which is potentially difficult, but potentially still has a happy ending. Yeah, I agree with Andy. Potentially still. And if Marcus comes back and he's close to his best self, however, there's also things of how do you make sure Marcus is close to his best self? There's this very often. That's a big question. There's a challenge that for Carrick, isn't it? First things first, he's got to stay fully fit. Marcus is going to be an explosive athlete. We're talking about his sprint speed, how he looked really fast at the World Cup, how he looked quite good during points at Barcelona.

22:46He's got to stay fit. He's got to look after himself and look after his body in a way so he can keep making those runs, those attacking runs and forays. There's also, for me, you've got to look at the left-back situation because Marcus's best seasons in a Manchester United shirt tend to coincide with seasons where Luke Shaw plays a lot of games. Now, fortunately, or maybe the thing that I'm always worried about, and this is me guarding against it right now, Luke Shaw played a lot of games last season, which normally means he's not going to play as many games the season afterwards. So, who's going to play at left-back?

23:19I think the left-back situation, if you retain Marcus Rashford or bring anyone else in at that left-wing position, is also going to be really important. What happens to Dorgou there? Rashford coming back also brings this interesting situation with the backup centre-forward. Do you go to market and try and convince someone like Danny Wolbeck to return or perhaps even talk to Ivan Toni when you've got someone like Rashford, Kunja and indeed Mbouma who can all offer something at centre-forward in a pinch too? so yeah absolutely things Marcus Rashid if he comes back he'll probably have to hold his hands up communicate with the fan base about what happened and what he's going to commit himself to doing we know he can be a bit of a gym rat and if he starts off as an impact player you very often end up in a position where he becomes a starter towards the January period again something similar happened to Barcelona okay didn't work to the best to everyone's fan base, to everyone's opinion there.

24:20But there's potential there. But it can't just simply be Marcus Rashford's back. Are we all right? Player, fan base, club, all need to go. Marcus Rashford's back. Here is what we're going to do to make sure this is good for everyone. Because when you're on a wage that large, you've got to find a consistency and you've got to find a way to make it work. There is a romance though, isn't there, to an academy graduate having a true renaissance at Manchester United and showing his best form at Old Trafford again. I suppose the other side of all of this, Laurie, and you did touch on it earlier, is it just a bit of a bluff that you can say all this and we can talk about all the pros and cons of him being reintegrated, but actually, ultimately, it's just about protecting his value and trying to attract people into buying?

25:10Yeah, I don't think it's a bluff because I think the reality is there. Because where does he go? Bayern Munich were in for Anthony Gordon. He goes to Barcelona. Are they still in that market? Well, they've got Luis Diaz, who's 31, is he now? So do they, you know, Marcus Rashford's 28 now. You know, is that the right kind of fit for them? We haven't heard anything really recently on them looking at that situation. Again, it could be something that they revisit and, you know, they realise, you know, clubs will realise that that Rashford thing is there if they want to do it late, maybe it'll cost money, but it's an option.

25:45They can leave it later, basically. But, you know, I mean, and where would it appeal to Rashford? I mean, at the end of the day, he's got this contract with United. It's up to him where he wants to go, ultimately. And that was what the whole Aston Villa loan was about, to sort of show that he still had it so that Barcelona would then come to the table. Because Barcelona was his dream move. And I think people probably scoffed at the idea here didn't they when that was originally touted and actually it happened you know so he made it work and ultimately they didn't follow through with it but um so where could he go i mean would you know just i'm thinking sort of out loud here would roma for example you know um they've got manu cone so you know does does something work there where um united could possibly offset a cost for that if they really wanted to do it um versus you know rashford going that you could presented to him as a kind of romantic move, you know, Rome, the Italian capital back in the Champions League, so it'd have some appeal to him, but obviously the cost of it, I don't think Roma could get anywhere near the wages that he's on, so United would have to take a hit there in some way.

26:52AC Milan, if you're talking Italy. Yeah, okay, you think Ruben Amrum would have him back, okay, sure, yeah, yeah, thank you, very cheeky. Imagine if he plays against AC Milan in pre-season, that'd be an interesting one, obviously later in August. Yeah, is it all a negotiation? We've been here before. I think United have certainly learned from previous examples, and maybe we'll touch on Alejandro Garnaccio later, but it was clear that he was available. Did they get the best price for him? Probably on reflection, maybe. I mean, they've got a little bit of a boost from the sell-on, I think, if the actual move goes through fully to Aston Villa for him.

27:32but certainly in other cases the fact that they were so clear about players not being part of their future that that just weakens your position so I think they've actually you know thought you know let's let's make sure that this bridge is being built here rather than burnt and then you know that puts us I think in a better position to move if something becomes available. Last point on this before we move on and talk about Rosenberg and a few other things Andy what do we know about his relationship with Michael Carrick because when you look at the history of the two together, I mean, Carrick was in the team when Rashford made his debut against Michelin back in 2016 and then against Arsenal a couple of days later, of course, scored twice in both of those games.

28:12It's one of the best ever starts to a Manchester United senior career. He then also started in the two Premier League games that Carrick had in temporary charge when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer left before Ralph Rangnick arrived in 2021. He came off the bench, I I suppose, in the other game against Villarreal. But, you know, there certainly was a clear sign there that Carrick wanted to use him and would have coached him a lot before that point as well. So what do we know about how they see each other? I think the benefit for both parties here is that they can start with a clean sheet of paper. I'm sure when Michael Carrick met Ole Gunnar Solskjaer in Trondheim a couple of days ago, that he would have been asking him about Marcus Rashford, for example.

28:56it's his job to to do something like like that but michael's got his own opinions and he's got the coaches around him if they see a player who comes back highly motivated you know these these coaches have been in football for a long long time they smell bullshit if they see it they smell effort if they see it if marcus is um this highly dedicated player which carl quite rightly said he can be, if he's fit, if he's motivated. That becomes very clear within a couple of sessions as opposed to someone who is not. And that gets your rewards. And Marcus has got the talent, which some of the other players have not got.

29:40The hardest thing to do in football is to beat a man. And he can do that. He's got that in him and he can score. And I don't recall many complaints when he signed that massive contract for Manchester United because he was effective. But he could sour quickly if he's not playing. I think Marcus has got to be aware of how he's perceived as well. And he can use that as a good thing. Look, if he knuckles down and works hard playing for the club he grew up supporting, from a family of United fans as well, you've got to say that, his brothers are Reds, and then the situation can change pretty quickly if it can change in 10 minutes outside wolves when people have got a massive downer on him wait a minute wait a minute you were just slaughtering him to me 20 minutes ago and now you're singing for him yeah you know you know it's like i've had five pints whatever it can change and i think we've covered a lot of areas when we've been talking about him here.

30:45The bottom line is I do think he'll play for United again. But, you know, Barcelona came back in for him. I'm sure he'd be happy to go there. I think it's to his credit that with those two loan moves, first he did all right at Villa and then because of that, Unai Emery, who's a wise coach, he became an advocate of Marcus Rashford. So he was able then to tell conduits in Spain that, yep, you can do him. He can work for you. And then that helped get him the move to Barcelona, where he was a success. He wasn't a failure. He won the league for Barca. He played an important role in that team. He wasn't the player of the year, but he played an important role in that team.

31:26And he had some fantastic moments. The best one was at Newcastle away in the autumn. And he had a couple of tricky months, a couple of tricky games, missed too many chances against Atletico at home. But on balance, you were marking him 7 or 8 out of 10 for last season. And if United get that out of him next year, I think everyone will be happy, I think. That won't be the last time we talk about Marcus Rashford, Laurie. There'll be many, many other times, won't there, I'm sure, as we head across this pre-season and we see exactly what happens with him.

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35:17Let's talk about Manchester United winning 5-0 against Rosenborg at the weekend. Carl, you were there. what should we have seen or what may have we missed from that game if we didn't see it? This was a game where the academy players really came to the fore so United a goal up at half-time only two changes at half-time compared to the 11 changes Michael Carrick made in Finland so I think that's sort of getting a little bit more reps a little bit more under the belt Joshua Zerksy scored just a phenomenal goal you normally see on a futsal pitch really nice dummy feint and then dummy the goalkeeper again you're like ah wish you could play at this groove in Premier League conditions but of course pre-season's pre-season the Premier League something else but then eventually just I think just a little bit past the hour mark Michael Carrick makes eight changes young players come on and it is really really good um I would recommend if you haven't seen the highlights try and get the extended highlights so you can see Harry Amass's goal which is just tremendous the ball is worked all the way from the back short goal kick bing bing bing bing boom eventually gets to jayden camerson at one fullback does a low cross gets it to harry mass at the back post and he taps it in and that is the sort of team goal you can imagine michael carrick wanting the first team players to score a little bit more and i think harry mass had a very very good game dan gore played about 20 minutes he was very good as well Jacob Devani is a midfielder normally by trade and has mentioned this but he continues to play quite well in centre-back roles as well these are young players that not all of them are going to be featuring for Manchester United next season I think two or three of them might be better off with a loan but they are now putting themselves in the conversation they're creating nice problems for Michael Carrick particularly someone like Harry Amass who I think he is good enough I think he's good enough right now to be playing senior team football on a weekly basis.

37:19I am not quite sure if you'd be better off getting a loan to say a top half championship team or if you should be better off staying at Manchester United and then playing Carabao Cup games, FA Cup games or games where Luke Shaw slash Doggy 1B rotated. I put this out on social media and I got you know 30 % say loan him out, 30 % say keep him, 30 % and go like mate it's just preseason shut up. So we'll see. We'll see. But the fact that there are players that are pushing themselves into this conversation. Andre Santos, again, I think had a very good game and just the way he is, the way he orientates himself and puts himself into positions to win the ball quite quickly should open up new midfield options for character too.

38:02So look, it's pre-season. It's pre-season in July. There's still 13 players that need to come back from World Cup duty before I can really get the whiteboard out and start talking X's and O's. But I will say from that 5-0 win against the Rosenwald team that are partway through their own league season. It was the academy players more than anyone else. So I went, oh, this is nice. Shane Lacey got a start, Andy, as well. We should mention that. He got a goal as well. What stood out to you? Shane Lacey getting a start and getting a goal. I stood out to me. He played as a 10. There's definitely something there.

38:36I think he's one of the players, I think most of them young players, and they did well. And Carl's right. It was a nice afternoon. Crowd was lower than we'd hoped for. five goals five different goal scorers miles better than two years ago when united played there and it was nil nil in one of the worst games i've ever seen that was when i asked eric ten arg which discos he'd been in in the beef for last summer and he thought i was being serious i said no i did not go to the discotheque just having him over uh so it was it was a nice sort of sunny afternoon in norway's third city i spoke to soby collier after the game he's bright a bright lad bit of a rarity middle class footballer how just how did the game go toby and he just starts analyzing it tactically same within sort of five minutes we knew what we were trying to do they're trying to do in midfield we knew that therefore then they just pushed the ball out wide and we knew that we had better players there from them right all right anyway have a good day mate um so it was good it was nice in the united have got a huge support in norway a lot of seagulls there Zerksi brilliant goal he'd be perhaps the player I would most expect to leave Manchester United there's definitely interest in him from Italy why so few people?

39:55a third of the crowd from last time very low wasn't it? five or six reasons Rosenberg the host club I was told didn't promote the tickets very well ticket prices were expensive they usually are in Scandinavia Rosenberg were having a terrible season so there were hardly any Rosenberg fans. Trondheim is not that big. This isn't Oslo or even Bergen where United would have probably played had Norway's team not come back into Oslo to do a presentation following their World Cup exploits. So certain venues were not available. Ticket sales are much higher for the next games where the opponents are more attractive.

40:30Atletico Madrid and PSG in Stockholm. The last game there two years ago was awful So if you bought a ticket two years ago, you'd be thinking, I ain't having that again. So I think you had all of these factors. And it's the middle of the holidays. Loads of Norwegians were out of town. They also got a league game. They got a league game on Monday. So quite a lot of fans went, well, I'll watch my team play in the league later on. For half the price of the friendly game. Yeah, and I suppose you've also got the accessibility, haven't you, where there are a lot of Norwegian fans who can travel across to England to watch Manchester United in action in actual competitive fixtures, whereas if you go to America or you go to the Far East, obviously it's a lot less accessible to supporters there.

41:16But it was a low crowd. Even on the highlights, watching through it, it was quite stark how empty the stands were. Jacob Deveni, we've had quite a few emails, mainly from Steve. So thank you, Steve. We have been noticing that you keep emailing about Jacob. Had a great loan spell physically and tactically. I think he's ready to be part of the squad as a fifth-choice centre midfielder or maybe a good championship loan. He has the leadership quality and, in my eyes, is Elliot Anderson light. I truly believe in a couple of seasons' time, he could be as good if we manage his development correctly. I don't think we're going to see many of them playing with the first team.

41:53I mean, Jacob Devaney, he turned 19 last month. Hugely impressive young man. Scholar of the Year last year. Speaks with maturity. I don't know Carl were you there in a mix zone in Helsinki? I was He certainly caught my attention when he was talking What a really impressive young man he is And I think he played well He's still really young but I spoke to quite a few damn lads As he left the changing rooms the other day And just a great experience for them Even JJ Gabriel who didn't feature Just to be part of it Just to see whoa there's loads of fans there There's big names there We're playing in a stadium we're playing in front of proper crowds so i and i also spoke to michael carrick um and his his whole sort of sense was um slowly but surely this pre-season you know we're just building and building got a long time to build we train in the week and then these games are like an away game we go the night before we play we smash opponents by five and we're going to do the same at psg and Atletico Madrid and then we go back and we crack on.

42:59And it's far less draining. You've seen Chelsea and Arsenal in the Far East. To Manchester United's credit, they've not done that. They could have taken the money, but they've not done that. The playing against teams like Rosenberg, this Rosenberg team's a shadow of the one of years gone by, but they are still mid-season. And I think it's been done pretty intelligently with stronger players as well. Them two starting 11s, I don't think any fan who bought the ticket, they might have grumbled about the ticket price and I get that, but the starting 11s were really strong for Manchester United. Yeah, the boomerang method definitely has its virtues.

43:36It could play in very well in terms of player care, making sure you reduce injury load and making sure no one's burnt out or mentally knackered before the season starts. You're right with Jacob Devaney. Jacob Devaney? Someone tell me off. Me task an Irish person and looking at the Mayo is it winning in that All-Island final I think Arthur Manchester's Irish are from County Mayo that's what I've learned today Carl was all over that congratulations to them yeah 11 defeats in the All-Island final 6 by a single point and then you've ended the 75 year curse that's what it's all about isn't it watching your team finally get it done one day for us one day can United end a 13 year curse yes or 14 back to my point about Jacob he is good and he definitely has potential and I was talking to Nathan Salt who gave me a little bit more information about how impressive he was on loan to St Mirren and how he helped change opinions and minds about the virtues of first team loans at St Mirren because he just gave such a good account of himself.

44:35So he is good. The question footnote I'd have is if you're that good, why do you want to be the fifth choice centre midfielder at this current point in time? You need to go out and start playing at a higher level and playing for St Mirren. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. And try and be your first, second or third choice century midfield or somewhere else. If you are Elliot Anderson-like, it's very important that Manchester United do the good things so they can retain their Elliot Anderson-like rather than eventually watch that player get sold for£116 million somewhere else. So these are nice problems these players have.

45:10I know someone on social media pointed out that Daniel Armour, if you squint and you take your glasses off, he looks a little bit like a young Harry Maguire. and this is the fun bit before the World Cup players come in you get a little bit more time watching these possible Manchester United players of the future and you're going oh wait look at that habit look what you're doing there I hear good things about how Brian Mbumo and Lenny Oro and Mason Mount have been looking after some of the young players as well Mount was in the mix zone and he said he now views one of his roles in the dressing room as to help some of the younger players because of his background being an academy graduate for Chelsea and how he wants to offer them guidance I think Mbumo and Yoro particularly paid special attention to make sure JJ Gabriel felt comfortable around the first team in Norway as well.

45:57Also, Brian Mbumo, thank you because you helped avoid me getting nicked in the boot by Joshua Zerksi in the tunnel at halftime. So I appreciate that, mate. What? Wish I had video of that. That would have been good to show. So many questions, but we've still got so much to do. So just quickly, Andy, can you round up the injuries? because I think we've got a couple of updates on the status of Lissandro Martinez and maybe Matthias De Ligt as well. Yeah, Lissandro is not serious and the United expect him to be back for the start of the season. De Ligt will take a little bit longer than Lissandro Martinez.

46:32I don't think he'll be back at the start of the season but hopefully soon after that his back operation was a success. So that is as much as I know on those two. Benjamin Chesko is back on the grass training and he sort of looked bulked up and I think they'll slim down a bit as he trains more and gets more towards match fitness so pretty encouraging on all of those three De Ligt's not played since last November but I think a back injury is something that you know can't be rushed and if he comes back he was he was an important player before that injury he started last season well you seem to have a rotation of one of those central defenders being unfit the issue was if it was ever two of them United have got five central defenders now looking like we're going into the season with four with De Ligt soon to follow

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49:53Okay, a couple more things to round up before we finish the ticket situation and transfers as well. So, Laurie, any new developments as you understand it for United in this window? The midfield market is still lively. David Ornstein has reported about Real Madrid stepping up their interest in Rodri. What that then means for some of their players leaving. How do you see it? The Rodri thing has been bubbling along, hasn't it? If that actually happens to Real Madrid, then you think City would need another player. We reported previously this summer that Enzo Fernandes was on their list. You saw how he did for Argentina at the World Cup.

50:29That's going to be an interesting reintroduction at Chelsea, I guess. does that mean that that does open the door to him to go there obviously reuniting with Enzo Maresca cost a lot of money clearly but then does that open the door to for example Alex Scott going to Chelsea we reported this week on Athletic that they'd had a bid rejected by Bournemouth Bournemouth for instance is not for sale but it does then feed into the United picture where he's obviously been someone that they have looked at and it's sensed to me that ultimately the price feels like it's getting away from what United would be willing to pay.

51:05I mean, like I say, Bournemouth are saying he's not for sale. So, you know, there's maybe that point just to raise. But equally, if Chelsea have made a bid, it's been rejected, you know, it'll be a significant bid. So, you know, it feels like if he's going to go anywhere, then Chelsea is the likeliest destination. So what does that mean for United? Yeah, obviously there's other options there in midfield. Perhaps, I don't know, Andy, I think you've said about too many before. Or if Rodri goes there, does that still? You know, you sort of thought that, I thought that was over, you know, with the new contract being signed.

51:36You obviously had a different take and maybe that then still comes to pass. Although obviously the financials of that would be significant again, but United perhaps would be willing to commit more for a player that has obviously got the pedigree and history that he has than other players. I mean, sort of obviously in a different position, but certainly one that United have done is Tienen Thompson, who is the left-winger 18-year-old from Tottenham Hotspur, which is worth pointing out to people, worth talking about because, okay, it's only a lower fee, £4 million guaranteed plus£4 million in add-ons, which United would certainly be happy to pay if they are triggered because it'd be first-team appearances and it'd be, therefore, signing would be a success.

52:20And it does sort of feed into the conversation that we're having about Rashford because he's a left-winger, right? So he's 18. it's not expected that he's going to go into the first team but it will be around the first team picture training, see how he lands has he got that kind of potential that Aidan Hevin came into the club with signed for£1.5 million from Arsenal nobody outside of Arsenal and United youth set up really in terms of me, knew much about him same thing with Thompson, obviously then you see this reporter you go away and make some calls and from what I can tell he's an exciting player who does take people on.

52:56Andy said earlier that it's the most difficult thing in the world to beat a player and that's certainly something that Thompson has shown in academy setups at least. And so now have United been able to pick a player at the right moment who had a year left on his contract so the price wasn't as much as what it might have been in a different circumstance. Yeah, it's a similar kind of setup. It's the emerging talent pool that United have now got which is something that the new regime have kind of come in and said we need to be alert to this possibility. It's a guy called Sam Williams at United who I'm told was integral to Aidan Heaven being scouted and brought to the club and then similar in Tienan Thompson's case.

53:35He actually was at United for quite a while then left to go to Ipswich under Kieran McKenna and helped them get promoted into the Premier League and then came back to United. And so these are a couple of signings that I think he's been involved in. Obviously, it's a team effort. Then you've got to go and get the player on board and do the negotiation, but in terms of putting the work in, United have certainly done that with Thompson. I think they're hopeful that he can be a similar player, have a similar impact to heaven because he came in with perhaps no real expectation and actually in the end he played, I think, 24 games now already for United.

54:07It would have been more if he'd not been injured at the end of last season. So I think if United get that kind of impact from him over the course of the next 18 months from Thompson, then they'll be certainly very happy. And that does, like I say, It feeds into all the other aspects. You look at Christensen Somerville, who United looked at earlier this season for that left-wing position. He's going to Al-Hilal for£60 million or something like that. It's a big question if this kid can do it at United, to Carl's point on Rashford, bringing him into the club. All those aspects will be handled well to make him have a smooth entry.

54:42But if they've managed to do it again like they did with Heaven, then it'll be a good thing for United. I spoke to someone who doesn't work at United, but he's very seen in youth recruitment and he's impressed by what Manchester United are doing in the transfer window by the players they're bringing in. I think there'll be more as well. United are getting emerging talents for various reasons, personal and professional, from major rivals. And United's budget is probably not the same as Manchester City, Chelsea. Liverpool's slightly different because they tend to put most of it into the first team.

55:13So yeah, I'm sounding... because you just do not know how youth players are going to turn out. But Laurie's example there with Aidan Evan is a really good one. There's a scout in London, Steve, who... It's about players' families trusting the club that they're going to, that it's the best environment for their son, that they're going to have the best shot of playing first-team football, of improving, of having a pathway, even if they don't make it to the first team, to go on and establish themselves. somewhere else the other players you you mentioned left back Lewis Hall absolutely someone Manchester United are interested in I wondered whether it's difficult to get a player out of Newcastle but plenty of left Newcastle United this year and that's that's because there's only Luke Shaw as an established left back and he played all the time last season but going into Champions League you need more cover there now Noose Masraoui can play there but you need another player there really so that's why Manchester United are left back.

56:18United have got other options for other players. They've been offered players, midfielders from Spain who are probably going to pass on because they've got no Premier League experience or experience outside of Spain. I stand by everything I've ever said about him on this podcast even when people were going what on earth are you on about? He's not leaving Real Madrid. What are you on about? Well, again, I stand by everything that I've said about him. So according to multiple sources that I've spoke to, yet United have been interested in him long term. He's been very happy at Madrid. He's still very happy at Madrid.

56:57Madrid are buying big, and therefore, according to multiple sources that I've spoke to, they need to sell big. So who do they sell? And what is Madrid? So let me say Madrid. What if the new manager has a different opinion to the sports director? Madrid will, if they're considering to sell him, look at the daft money going around in the Premier League and probably think we'll have a little bit of that I'm not sure Manchester United could be going to the daft sort of money levels even though it's a player they absolutely have long admired and then you've got the wages as well I'm so here for the victory lap that you're going to do if this happens Andy I know you're still saying it's heavily caveating it with financials obviously it does feel like every single podcast though you're like a really into a minute you're saying there's a chance yeah he's got better pronouncing his name so yeah yeah do you know do you know I had to do a couple of weeks ago I had to do it properly because I was quite rightly getting picked up on the incorrect pronunciation so yeah Aurelien Chouameni it's the fact you had three different versions and all of them were wrong that was the issue really I'm settled I'm settled on one now that's good I'm glad so you know again he's very happy at Madrid but if a club don't want you and I've I've currently got no evidence that they don't want him.

58:15Situations can change. There would be a lot of obstacles here as well. But United really like him. So you're saying there's a chance. Looking forward to the August edition where people start giving you loads of questions about Cameron Wenger. Do you remember that year when we had theme music every time we talked about Frankie de Jong? I feel like we should try and walk that back a little bit. Longer time listeners will know exactly what I'm talking about. Right, just to finish then, we also need to talk about the ticketing controversy that has been around Manchester United this week, Andy. a lot of people, quite understandably, pretty angry about what's happened.

58:48For anyone who is not aware of this or for anyone who wants more detail on it, can you just explain from your side of things what's actually happened? It became a big story that, didn't it? So I started getting collared in Helsinki. About 50 United fans had travelled over. Like proper hardcore people would go everywhere. And a couple of them had had that email, which I think a few hundred fans had got that email. and i saw a copied email i didn't like it i thought it was quite accusatory in its tone basically saying you've been up to no good um but offering no evidence please prove where you were and why you did this and why that and it was like you know what color shoes were you wearing on the 22nd of march 2022 at leicester away and how would you tie your shoelaces and being slightly facetious here but it was really detailed and people were anxious when they got them because they didn't know what they'd done wrong and i think that united's view is that there's a there's an issue with ticket touting and they're trying to get to the bottom of that and i think some innocent people have been caught up in the crossfire of that and then it's just kicked off as a news story weird how it kicked off you know that was that was about last saturday it was only on Tuesday four days later that my editor at the Athletic said can you dig into this for us so my lovely day in Stockholm was cancelled and I'm then gathering accounts from Manchester United fans who've had this this email don't know what they've done wrong they've appealed some of them kind of you know were completely savvy in how to appeal and had innocent explanations but they were annoyed because you know they're big fans of Manchester United and to get this email which again in its tone I think the tone was completely wrong and they're like what have we done wrong?

1:00:39And some of them have been exonerated, some of them have not heard back and also the sanction was quite serious, it was we're restricting your facilities which is your season tickets, you know, you might not be able to apply for an away game ticketing is really complicated it's always been really complicated I think United didn't do this right and that's why you've seen it blow up into the story that it has done. I don't know whether you lads have spoken to anyone else in relation to this. Yeah, a few, to be honest. And just sort of one of the themes of it was that this was done sort of after the season ticket money had been collected.

1:01:16And so then that, you know, if you do get a ban, you know, that they keep the money and they can sell the ticket on or even do it to members, you know, on individual cases. So I don't know, there's anything to that in terms of... Well, it'd be out of order, wouldn't it? You know, that felt quite strategic, yeah. You pay your season ticket money and then that's retained. I'm not sure that could stand up. I think there's a bigger picture here. There's a low trust between the fans and the club for many, many reasons. Side issues such as, is there going to be a new stadium? Has there been full transparency around that?

1:01:47And there's a fear of loss from those who don't want to move to the new stadium about Old Trafford. There's a fear that they won't be able to afford to go to a new stadium. there's a general fear around ticket prices not just at Manchester United but at all the major clubs where supply is less than the demand that season ticket holders are not wanted that somehow the club would rather sell tickets for a much higher price to executive fans season ticket holders feel under threat from the club's perspective they're like we've got a huge waiting list for season tickets I said earlier touting what is touting what's the definition in the touting.

1:02:26You know, there's a culture among United fans, certainly among my friends. If you have a spare, you help each other out for face value. There's no monetary gain from that. Is that classed as touting? I don't think that it is. I like the fact that there's this culture which leads to the match-going fans helping each other out. Counterpoint to that is people going, why can't I ever get a ticket? I've been on the waiting list for X number of years. Season tickets, is it yours to do what you want with, even if you don't go to games? or is there another side to that as well? So it's pretty complex.

1:03:00Again, I think the club got it wrong with that first email, the tone of it, because you've got people who have been caught up in this, who've done nothing wrong, having to defend themselves against they don't know what. What are the allegations that are put against us? Yeah, it's very complicated, certainly. Lots of detail in Andy's piece on The Athletic, on this. A lot of supporters, very unhappy about it. so we'll see what develops in the future. But that's it for Talk of the Devils. A lot covered in that about Marcus Rashford transfers, tickets, the pre-season friendlies, the academy graduates who are in contention to try and push for minutes as well.

1:03:38I hope you enjoyed it. I certainly did. Just sat back listening to it all. It was worth spending a morning of my holiday listening to these three chew the fat about Manchester United and we'll do it all again next Monday as well. Just a couple more weeks left of the one-a-week podcast before we go back to multiple shows a week once the season gets a little bit closer. But for the minute, Carl, Andy, Laurie, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you everyone for listening and watching along as well. And we'll see you in the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.

1:04:28The Athletic FC.

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1:05:27That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. Season three of the Talent Transformation Podcast is here. Join Avature CEO, Dimitri Boylan, as he talks with HR leaders who are leveraging disruption to stay ahead. Hear from the brilliant minds behind the talent strategies at IBM, Siemens Energy, Transcom, and many more. Subscribe now so you never miss an episode. The Talent Transformation Podcast, Redefining Talent, one conversation at a time.