Man United's Greatest Players: Part One

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1:18The Athletic FC.

1:35This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, we're going to do something a little bit different. We are going to begin our journey of Manchester United's top 25 players, the greatest players in the club's history, as selected by our very own Andy Mitton. You may have seen the series of articles that have been on The Athletic on this. Fantastic reads, all of the takes and all the explanations as to why the players are where they are. But we've got Andy here in the studio today. We've got Laurie here with us as well. And we are going to run down numbers 25 down to 11 in this video.

2:14It's the first in a three-part series. Andy's sat next to me and Laurie, you're smiling already. I mean, Andy, I've just called it an impossible task. It definitely is. 986 players over 148 years and you've managed to get it down to 25 oh yeah yeah sort of we'll

2:34Andy Mitten: explain that in a moment but it's not impossible because i've done it well is it right though of course it's right it's subjective i put a lot of work into it and i feel my sources were as good as can be I feel that I spoke to the best people alive often off the record to help me with players who I didn't see who I knew all about and I've often interviewed people who've played with them or coached them and that gave me good guidance so I think the quality of my sources was second to none we'll decide that and I also feel that I've written about Manchester United for a long time you often see those books behind me in my office i've written a lot of them myself i've done the groundwork i've done a lot of research and i feel i'm well qualified look he's smiling he's getting all the caveats in here isn't he all the defense it wasn't my idea to do it no all right i was gonna ask you that it was my editor david jordan's idea i decided not to go to the world cup finals And you needed something to do.

3:38Andy Mitten: Well, I needed money to support my family. I think he got wind of the fact that I wasn't going, and he'd just come up with that idea. All my best pieces of journalism over the years have not actually been my idea. You know, like Maradona in Sinaloa and stuff like that. Yeah, someone else's idea. So it was DJ's idea. I did it to the best of my ability, and I knew because it's subjective, lots of people would agree and disagree. I was really pleased in the end how it built and built and the numbers. And then I started getting videos off players. Yeah, we've got some of them to show as we go along.

4:14Andy Mitten: I really enjoyed doing it. And obviously some of them elicited stronger responses than others. I didn't do any of them to elicit a response. I didn't because I genuinely feel that was their place and they deserved it. But you did get certain trends coming out. Everyone felt their favourite player should be higher. And I'm like, well, you can only have number one. one number one and one number two because we have a counting system which is like one and then two and then joint 19 number four oh bring it on boys come at me i'll defend it i also felt that this hasn't really been done for 20 years it was done a lot in the mid-naughties which shows how journalism and publishing has changed so there were a couple of big books came out in the mid-naughties one of them was the opus which was 1500 pounds that massive 32 kilo book which i worked on and the other one was done by David Meek the greatest 100 Manchester United players a lot of them were voted on by fans and I felt there was a huge huge recency bias with them where fans just voted for their current favorite player I wanted to take a longer more considered look and that is what I did and also look from a historical context as well how did you get it to 25 but then also add a few extra little ones in there like you know Rio and Vidic join don't give away too much okay sorry all right there's a couple of them which are shared which I accept might look like a fudge um you asked me specifically about one as a journalist I shall respond to that specific question thank you Nemanja Vidic said I'm only going in there if I can go in alongside Rio Ferdinand and I was really relieved when he said that because that allowed me to shoehorn both of them in together.

5:57Andy Mitten: I'll be honest with that. Both would absolutely make a top 25. Yeah, does Rio not justify on his own merits, do you think? Yeah, he would do. But the fact that he's in there at joint number 12. You had a cop-out card. I had a cop-out card. It's a tough ask. I'm sort of winding him up here, but to do what you've done, to actually treat it with such respect and diligence to speak to people, not just go, oh, well, I've read a bit on that person, I've seen that person play, this is my thoughts. obviously you do have your own opinion in there right like you've ultimately made the call just but your favorites that's all yeah really i did who got back to me right the ones who replied on sex message or whatsapp who's gonna send me a video you're up the list i mean i wrote patrice a risotto biography and came very close to patrice and he's not in the list is he giving his feedback to that no he's not yet it's going to be awkward isn't it the few others have been awkward as well who was the most awkward in a few of them don't think it's fair to um no any any angry messages from anybody let me ask that a different way who was the hardest one to leave out i would say in a moment all right i would say there are five or six who you could legitimately claim should be in there in august i went for a coffee with martin edwards the former manchester united chairman who was another who's controversial at the time but now he's just this mad united fan and he wanted to chat about the list and he went through his list and 23 of the players of the 25 were the same as mine and he argued all with conviction.

7:29Andy Mitten: So it was quite an enjoyable hour or so as he did that and he felt that Tony Dunn should have been in there, for example. For any of the younger viewers, just explain Tony Dunn's place in history. A great 1960s player when Manchester United were the best team in Europe. He loved John Cannelly. I never considered John Cannelly to be in there. And I think that was just a fan favourite of his at the time. He was another great 1960s player. So maybe because I didn't see the 60s, I'm more swerved towards the players who I have seen. But I made a conscious effort to have people in there throughout Manchester United's history.

8:09Andy Mitten: Clearly it's harder because there's not footage of some of them. And people would say, how can you write about them when you've not seen them? Well, you can't tell a historian they can't write about the Battle of the Somme because they weren't there on the 1st of July, 1916. You've got to draw on a huge breadth of research material, which I did. United Historians, my own cuttings, my own files. You've seen the books. So I drew on all of them and did it to the best of my ability. Clearly, loads of people disagreed. So why did you leave Jack Rowley out? Rowley would be one. Yeah. who you could argue because he's brilliant.

8:47Again, for younger viewers, what, 1937, he joined United, played for them for 18 years, 211 goals, fourth on the all-time scorer's list, only three players in the club's history have scored more goals and he didn't make the top 25.

8:59Andy Mitten: Tommy Taylor is another striker. Dennis Violet. Dennis Violet. Not on the list. Not on the list. Fifth on the all-time list joint with George West. Yeah, it's awkward. I know his wife, I know his daughter. For real, it's awkward. But these people are great Manchester United players. I'm not diminishing them just because they're not in the top 25. You'd have included them, wouldn't you? I had to get the list together. There had to be a cut-off point. Does this make you feel or understand what it is like to be a manager? Yeah. I had to leave somebody out. You know, like Ferguson leaving Jisung Park out in the squad in 2008 Moscow.

9:31Andy Mitten: I could see one young lad messaging me most days going, I can't wait to read about Tommy Taylor, he's my favourite. And you could see him give up when it got to the top 10. So he's not in the top 10 then? Oh, yeah, we're not allowed to tell that. Who else? Pretty awkward speaking to lads who would probably be top 40 players and saying to them, can you tell me about your teammate who's in the list? So there's a few of that off the record. Hi, I'm just calling you about the top 25 players in Manchester United history. Oh, great, yeah, thanks. Where am I? No, no, it's about somebody that you played with.

10:05I had them calls.

10:06Andy Mitten: It was awkward, but I was just honest. Okay, well, I think we've sat out your credentials and the process of how to do it. Let's start where every top 25 list should start. Number 25. In fact, the only current player in the top 25 is Bruno Fernandes. An indictment of where the club are that there's only one player in there. I feel that he deserves to be in the list. This part of me thinks we've got to have a current player in there just to kick it off. Did you have a problem with recency bias in past lists? Yeah, I did have a problem with recency bias. I think Bruno Fernandes is a great player and deserves to be in the list.

10:47Andy Mitten: He's not higher because he's not won trophies. So that plays into my thinking as well. If you've played in a great team... He's won trophies, but not many. Not as many as the others. No, he's not won league titles, sorry. Two in it, FA Cup and Carabao? If you are a great player in a great team, it helps. I would also say if you are a great attacker, probably more in your favour as well. Unless you're Jack Rowley. as opposed to a full-back, although there are full-backs in there. Very quickly, I was being judged on nationalities. What's your problem with the Welsh? I don't have one. There's a disproportionate number of Welsh people in there and positions.

11:26Andy Mitten: Bruno Fernandes, I think, is a great Manchester United player. But I've spoken to lads who played in the treble-winning team and said, would Bruno get in the team? They're like, no. Brian Robson, when we had him on the show, said he thought Bruno Fernandes would have got in their team. The 80s team? Alongside him. Well, I think that's fair. But the 80s team were nowhere near as good as the treble team. Just an example of someone we spoke to about Bruno, who would know? I'm comfortable about Bruno being in there. I just follow my instincts each day, rightly or wrongly. Okay. My journalistic instinct.

11:58Andy Mitten: Let's do 24 then. It's... Dennis Irwin. Correct. Told him. Didn't respond. I mean he's someone I've worked with in the last year so do you think you offended him? me and him went to Cardiff together what happened in Cardiff then? we did a night in like a working class area me and him so if you'd done this list just before you went to Cardiff would he have been slightly higher? I think Dennis I think Dennis Den's style I might be wrong is to have as little interaction with fellow humans as possible but I quite like him for that I think it's a great honour to be at number 24 in the list. Absolutely.

12:37They have 980 odd players like we said before.

12:40Andy Mitten: Got a lot of stick for it. As in he should have been higher. Yeah. Got a lot of stick for that. He's one of those players who was underrated but he's now been called underrated so much that I don't think he is actually underrated anymore. So overrated. I think it's because was it not the period of time that he spanned and how he kept his position and so I think is he the only player that was 91 Cup Winners Cup Final and 99? Yeah. Champions League finals Yeah I went to Radham with him last year just me and him you know yeah he blanked me but then he saw me at a recent game yeah I'll get back to you on that thing but no mention of the list He's very humble though Dennis He's very humble in the experience that I've had with him Go on man because the music festivals now stays intense He's looking ingrained by the way He's 60 and you always think could he still play?

13:28Andy Mitten: Top player I always remember Jordi Cruyff who's someone I've kept in touch with He uses Erwin as an example of that team was so great. You had lads who you've never heard of who were just brilliant, who just step up and smash a penalty in. Then it's Erwin. That's a legitimate opinion. And it was Erwin. Yeah, okay. All right, well, there are obviously two players that you've seen play. We've got a group of players now that we're going to do together, numbers 23 to 21, who you won't have seen play, but huge figures in Manchester United's history. Bill Foulkes, Billy Meredith and Roger Byrne. three for the grandparents maybe even the great-grandparents how did you decide that these three should be included and how could you even rank them compared to players that you had seen play folks um got my attention because of the sheer number of games he played yeah i think he's third on the all-time list of appearances fourth 688 that that is captain of the 1968 winning team survived Munich big factor is how many games you've played so we'll come to that because it has affected positions scored big goals one of the greatest games in United's history the semi-final 1968 Real Madrid away Paddy Creran was shouting to Bill Falk what on earth are you doing up front you're a central defender wasn't saying that when Bill Falk scored I didn't know Bill and I had to go to people who played with him and i had references like one of the most miserable humans i've ever met but he should be in the list uh because he won absolutely everything and then when we published it i started getting messages that his family were delighted stuff like that this was a man from from mining stock inst helens i think he deserves to be in there i don't think technically he was the best footballer but he was there for so long season in season out so it's longevity longevity weighed heavily plus he played in a great team yeah every single week played in a brilliant and part of such a horrific experience and then the renewal after it as well that will feature throughout the munich air disaster is such a pivotal moment in manchester united's um history and he was there and i read his autobiography did a lot of stuff around um around bill but the best point as i got on that was i spoke to people who played with him if they would have said no or you've got to get him in instead i would have listened to him okay billy meredith again might have even been difficult to speak to anyone that saw him play to be honest because he was probably the first big star or the first big figure in terms of how we look back at Manchester United's history he was essentially the star of the first ever league title win in 1908 so how on earth do you work out how good he is compared to all these other players it's subjective but a very important figure in Manchester United's history the first superstar footballer played a lot of games for Manchester City as well that got a bit stick for that actually how can you choose someone who's played so many games for them there's a couple of former city players yeah throughout it yeah yeah there is meredith was also instrumental in getting a better deal for footballers in helping to abolish the minimum wage that would come decades later but he felt that footballers were underpaid he was still working as a coal miner when he played for manchester united he was working night shifts and catching trains to away games and scoring goals and being the best player.

17:06Andy Mitten: He also played for United until his late 40s. Imagine that. Oldest player in the club's history. And he did it with a toothpick. He had a little toothpick. During the game? Yeah, during the match. He's from near Wrexham. There's two players in there from near Wrexham. When my Uncle Charlie left to go to Bogota in controversial circumstances, there was only one person waiting on the platform to say goodbye to him at Manchester Piccadilly. it was Billy Meredith telling me he'd done the right thing so historical anecdotes would add to his significance You had any family grief for leaving out your uncle?

17:42Andy Mitten: I've not had family grief Charlie Mitten was a great Manchester United player but he wasn't good enough to get in the best 25 there you go Uncle Charlie in heaven Matt Busby had him in his greatest ever Man United team that's how good he was and I'm proud of the family connection I went to where my great-grandmother was from a couple of weeks ago for the first time in Northern Ireland and her three sons were all professional footballers including Charlie and um how did you miss out on the family dude I just knew I was leading you into that now well I want just a son the whole family plays football yeah pretty much all of them have been paid to play and my dad would say things to me like everyone needs someone like you son because in a team because you'll turn up on time and offered to wash the kit i played in a really good team when i was young but i was i was the worst player in it yeah um personal or bold and then i've managed the team i love playing i really regret stopping playing when i was 14 to 26 to fulfill my addiction of watching manchester united home and away i regret that because but it's giving you the life and career that you've You're going to have done a top 25 list if you've missed out.

18:56Andy Mitten: No, I don't regret going to all those games, but I was at my peak. I was never ever going to make it. But your peak's like Snowden compared to Everest. Peter Schmeichel once said to me, your problem is you're never made as a footballer. And then one of Ryan Giggs' mates put it in and went, no, no, wait a minute. I saw him play. There's never any danger of that. Never any danger of that. Is that why Schmeichel's not higher in the list? Yeah. Schmeichel on the list. It might have cost him a couple of places if he's in the list. if he's made it. Right, let's move on to the next one. I mean, Martin Buchan and Paddy Creran, we've grouped together as well.

19:31Andy Mitten: Was Roger Byrne not in there? Sorry. Sorry, yeah, we should talk about it. A very captain of the Busby Babes would undoubtedly be higher if he'd not lost his life at Munich. It is a tragedy that the lads lost their lives at Munich, but I have got to make a judgment. And if you've only played a certain number of games, then you've only played a certain number of games. And harsh as it sounds, I've got to compare you against other players. bern was an intelligent lad he was he was a grammar school boy he was good looking he was captain of the babes i mean really impressive human manchester boy as well and died at munich and it's just a tragic but he is in there um for the partly for the reasons that i have explained and he's not higher because he didn't play more matches what do people say about him they gave his strengths and weaknesses um said he was terrible in the air for example but he's timing and he's tackling and he was one of the few players who would stand up to matt busby disagree with him and had the intellectual capacity to argue his case and for busby to go yeah he might be right here so brian mcclair used to do it with fergie and fergie just go get out my dressing room because fergie was losing the argument because mclare was was brighter than him burn you just see the images of him cut down in his prime along with several others i felt bad leaving all the lads out who died at munich of the other lads harry greg's not in there harry greg's a hero of munich he's a hero of the club he walked back into a burning aircraft and rescued other humans but i had to decide burns in there so i'm glad that he is in there number 21

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23:01right let's talk about Martin Booking and Paddy Crerand because again I've sort of grouped those together as as players from the past different eras I suppose but um Nobby Styles in with Crerand as well that's quite a midfield that by the way those two in it yeah it is I couldn't separate

23:17Andy Mitten: them so i didn't separate them i wrote paddy's autobiography i know paddy really well fantastic fella yeah he's a great fella i just love his humor amazing just winding him up because i know more about his life than he does because i've researched it for his book so i could just call him out on things and i think it's fair to say that paddy is not a fan of glasgow rangers for example or of the british monarchy or the british establishment or the conservative party so i'd just like ring him up, pretend it'd be like David Cameron. And he'd believe me. Or I'd just post him letters from mad places saying it's got the world's biggest Glasgow Rangers supporters club.

23:57Andy Mitten: It's fantastic. And imagine him six weeks later fuming as this thing lands on the mat of his house in sale. I love him. I absolutely love the man. Paddy was a great player in a great Manchester United team, the 68. And he could have won in 67 had he stayed at Celtic. they were the first British team to win it United were the first English team to win it Nobby Stiles won the World Cup and the European Cup for Manchester United There was a key player in both They were both key players I was in a coach around the class of 92 so that historical resonance how much does that play a part in where they've won the list It does, it's a factor Nobby under pittance when he came back so did Brian Kidd finding lads like Paul Scholes what value do you put on them and Martin Buchan That was really nice.

24:45Andy Mitten: I did tell him he was going to be in there and I got his first ever video message and it was beautiful and it resonated with so many people. Shall we see it? Yeah. Let's play it. Hi Andy, Martin Bucking here. Thank you for your call the other day. Very, very pleased to hear the news that I'm included with some of the greatest players of all time in Manchester United's 25. You've made an old man very happy. I remember when you played in the streets at Aberdeen, the commentary was handed to law to Charlton, Charlton's the best.

25:34and very soon I found myself sharing a dressing room with him. I will treasure your news for the rest of my days. Thank you. Bye now. Absolutely beautiful message from Martin. Played in an era alongside some fantastic players at the start, but obviously not the most glorious era, shall we say, in United's history. won the second division and was a huge part of the team around that time. But I suppose with fans of a certain age, it doesn't get much better than him, does it?

26:10Andy Mitten: No, no. He was the best defender in the 70s team. And again, I went to people around him. I went, should he be in? Yeah. Not even people who were particularly close to him. The cliche was it was a Rolls-Royce of a defender and would have been one of them, maybe like Bruno Fernandes, who would have been good enough to play in top title winning Manchester United teams. Highly intelligent man. He was a captain. He was good humour about him. Good looking fella. Tough nut as well. And when that went out, a whole generation of United fans were just like, absolute and buzzing. You've not forgotten about him.

26:58Andy Mitten: and that was really nice. There were some negative responses but that was a really nice one. Was that his first ever video message you'd ever sent then? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah it was. Amazing. Yeah, he's 77 years old. Well I know, yeah. He looks wonderful. He's on the circuit, he's enjoying life. You see him at like, you know when Stretford Enders have a reunion and former players, he's there and it's just nice that he's at the stage in life having had a lovely career and I'm sure both your dads will have great memories of that's when my dad started sporting in the 70s when they were in division two because he came to Blackpool and took it over basically yeah they did and they loved that season in division two because they take like 22 ,000 away fans and stuff and there was disorder everywhere and in the middle of it you have this orderly figure who was immaculately dressed having to deal with absolute rascals in his team like Lou Macari who was getting forged tickets made up for the players lounge which Martin Buckingham was trying to administer or Gordon Hill just jokers everywhere and then a load of them who weren't protagonist pranksters but were going along with the jokers people like Sammy McElroy and then you had these two fellas who were like really intelligent Steve Koppel was an economics graduate from liverpool university a highly intelligent man and booking islands in the stream with all these rascals around them and having to come out and defend the fact that you know disorder was taking place on a weekly basis by manchester united fans running amok in regional or historical cities like York or Oxford or Cardiff.

28:48Andy Mitten: And so you remember him for different reasons. Yeah, yeah. And glorious in different ways. Okay. So, so far then, let's have a look at what we've got. We've got Bruno Fernandes at 25. We've got Dennis Erwin at 24. 23 is Bill Foulkes. 22, Billy Meredith. 21, Roger Byrne. 20th place, we'll talk about Gary Neville in just a moment. were into the top 20. But I want to talk about a group of strikers that have made it into your top 20. Laurie, you want to talk about a group of strikers who've made it to number 19, because if Ferdinand and Vidic was a cop-out, I mean, this is something else, isn't it?

29:28What's happened here, Andy? How can you have four players at one position? Top 25 my arse, basically. And have you not missed a trick, Oli, not being 20? You've nudged him ahead, 19. I did miss a trick.

29:41Andy Mitten: okay i'll end up there as soon as someone pointed out when it was published i thought i missed a trick okay but gary neville can't go any higher so he's got to stay at 20. gary neville was a great a great fullback for manchester united again a player who was elevated unquestionably by the teams that he played yeah but but massively motivated and still a big part of it yeah yeah Yeah, and I played a lot of games, Gary Neville. He was at the World Cup. I've seen him every day on my telly. I didn't want any more. I didn't want a video from him. But this is why this was about football and not everything else, right?

30:18When you're doing these lists.

30:19Andy Mitten: Gary Neville deserves to be in that list. And that was the first point that people started going. There's no way he should be hiding Irwin. That would be my one. I would probably put Irwin over Gary. Just because of the time that he played, the flexibility that he showed. But I think he's underestimated. underestimated and he does himself down doesn't he gary with the talk of his own career you know the full back no one grows up dreaming of being a gary neville but clearly the standards that he set in training and in the dressing room over a prolonged period of time helped united sustain that success they're both models of consistency erwin and neville aren't they i think neville's probably not as talented in some ways as dennis erwin when you look at the um you know the sort of technique that Erwin had but as a defender as a fall for Beckham and um and then as a leader well in 99 okay this is a small detail but he's the one that runs over from right fullback to take the throwing on the left wing just because he's trying to make something happen like he's not giving up and that's his celebration against Liverpool at Old Trafford his celebration as a sub against Manchester City these are all things that made him a player in folklore but you're copping out here you're not talking yeah no no I'm gonna come I'm gonna come to it and accept that it might be seen as a fudge and i accept that them lads by themselves might not be in there and i accept that i was about to go traveling around ireland with andy cole who doesn't just me and him so it is a factor then you're about to know yeah coli does not read my stuff at all you know when i told him what i'd done i mean coli pulls me up and says things like who on earth are you to rate me give me a six or seven out of ten again when you've got no idea what instruction I've been given by the manager on any given day.

32:04This was back in the day, right? Hang on a minute. He's saying that he listened to instructions by the managers. I've worked with Andy a few times, and some of the stories he's told over the years suggest that he might have just worked it out himself at times. So that sort of player.

32:20Andy Mitten: I like the fact that the four of them play together and are in it together, and they won it together. Presume you didn't tell him he was joint with Teddy Sheringham then. i can easily chat with andy about teddy and when we did the live shows we were talking about it and i nearly brought him back together about a decade ago i spoke to both both parts of it yeah i did and i get on fine with teddy as well again for people who don't know they fell out over a reaction to teddy sharing him coming off as a substitute for england in one of andy calls was it is england debut even maybe coming off the bench did they just work colleagues together did they but then still could play together work colleagues who didn't get on i'm sure everyone watching this may have people relate to that can't we yeah you know i accept that you're good at your job i don't have to get on with you we're very much going our separate ways after this podcast um they both speak really well about each other as footballers they don't have to be best mates it's a dressing room so collie was a great manchester united player great manchester player ollie gunner not only was a manager but scored the most important goal in the club's history.

33:26Is that a factor?

33:27Andy Mitten: Yeah, of course it is. It has to be, doesn't it? Because football's about romance and moments and feelings and memories and so that will forever be etched in my mind. It's more important than scoring a goal at Rotherham than an elite cup, isn't it? Who did that? Lads in the late 80s when we last played Rotherham. Teddy was a top player. Teddy was player of the year. Yorkie was the top scorer in this treble win. I like the fact that they grouped together. they were all greats in their own right but I accept the criticism that comes with that I mean thinking of that that season and I was what 11 years old watching that I had a week off school to go to the the Champions League final on a bus from Middleton absolutely incredible great that we all went in it but thinking thinking back that's mad to be fair from where we've come didn't know each other before doing this pod really did we and quite a lot of people at Barcelona to be fair but but I did a support us doing Chester on Friday and I went who was there in Barcelona expecting all the hands to go there's not many it's a long time ago well it's credit to my dad I wouldn't have been there if it was there for him yeah and my dad would say it's credit to me because I got him the ticket because not a chance he would ever take he never took me to games yeah because he was a player yeah but thinking back to that season what was getting at if I close my eyes the image I can see instantly other than obviously the Oli goal in in the final is York and Cole, Barcelona away in the interchange.

34:54And even the goal, Juventus, which sealed the place in the final. Do you know, they did that in that game as well. Again, step over. It wasn't quite as intricate as the Barcelona one, but it was a step over, pass through and York didn't quite finish it. Speaking to Andy about his relationship with Dwight, it just came naturally. It wasn't even something that they particularly worked on in training or anything like that. They were almost thrown together by accident because Andy felt that he was kind of being edged out almost when Dwight first signed at the start of that season and then the two of them came together and it just went like that bang the most iconic strike force in United's history by

35:29Andy Mitten: accident almost people think they're two peas from the same pod because they're both of Caribbean heritage massively different totally different massively different yeah massive but they were really good mates but they they were and are totally different I've written in in the piece you mentioned that Barcelona game. I sat next to the legendary journalist, Hugh McIlvenny in Camp Nou and I was a young lad. He didn't know who I was. And I loved seeing how excited he was watching Manchester United. I loved it. Ferguson said it was his dream to have a team good enough to go to Barcelona away and attack them.

36:02Andy Mitten: And he felt that he had that. Just brilliant. So were you in the Nou Camp as a journalist for the 3-3 and then the final? No, for the final, I was behind the goal as a fan. And I only went as a journalist for the 3-3 because I was doing a feature on what it's like to cover a Man United away game in Europe. So I wasn't doing a match report. It was like writing about the journalists and the final as a fan with my friends and my family on. So you could celebrate it properly. Imagine if you could get in the press box for that one. It would have been awkward, right? Yeah. So I'm glad I was where I was.

36:38Andy Mitten: I was with my dad. My dad's died now. You've got these memories forever. Memories forever, definitely. And Oli Gunnar Solskjaer sent you this video as well when he found out that he was 19th in the list.

37:15Diego, Rude, all the top, top strikers that I've played with. I'm honoured. We used to feed each other with chances, so that's one of the big parts of being a Man United player is being a good teammate. So thank you from Oli on holiday, as you might see, and it'll be good to see the list.

37:38Andy Mitten: Yeah, where was he there? It looked like Rome to me. He was in Dubrovnik on the Adriatic in Croatia, so when he told me that i told him that he should look out for like the the positions in the balkans morning then it just went quiet for like two hours and then i spoke to andy call that day he was in gibrovnik so i put them i put them both in touch with each other on holiday reunited yeah the number 19s yeah yeah nice thing to do yeah you're both 19 by the way yeah exactly talk about that over a glass of wine he mentioned rud van nisteroy actually uh in his video there Solskjaer and he is he's right he is higher in the list than him Mark Hughes another centre forward as well so like Solskjaer like York like Cole like Sheringham I suppose players like this have to make the list because of how much joy they've given United fans down the years how many victories their goals have been worth so Mark Hughes 9th on the all-time scorer's list Van Nistelrooy 11th Hughes was a childhood hero of mine and not someone I particularly knew well pretty much the only one I didn't know out of that team And I went to see him last year in Southend, managing Carlisle, and I tweeted a picture of him.

38:44Andy Mitten: God, the love for him was incredible. And I was going to go to Rotterdam with him last year, but it took a Carlisle job. Kind of come full circle with Mark Hughes, hasn't it really? I didn't tell him. Mark lost his son in the summer. Mark's had a horrific time. If he's read this and it's made him smile, then great. He deserves to be in there. I did tell Rude. Ruud's not the type of fella to send a video we're delighted Ruud van Nistelrooy was so prolific that I feel he was the best striker in the world for a season or two when he came in he won league titles accommodating him meant that United had to change their tactical system totally different to Mark Hughes Hughes scored world beating goals that's the weird thing about van Nistelrooy because the record was so strong I mean, when you look at the top of the all-time scorers list, he is the most prolific, unquestionably.

39:43But not... It was a period in United, it was almost like a punctuation in United's glorious era under Ferguson, the time that he was at Old Trafford. Just one league title to show for five years full of goals.

39:54Andy Mitten: Yeah, and if I had any feedback about that, it was too high. Whereas the Mark Hughes feedback was... I think it resonated with a lot of people how great a player Mark Hughes was. Mark Hughes scored the goals in Rotterdam. Although Steve Bruce might contend that he could have got the first goal. But the second one was an unbelievable strike. So last March we went to Rotterdam and rang Steve Bruce while he was walking his dog. Got Erwin, Dennis Erwin and Brian Robson to ring him and we recorded it. And Bruce claimed that he scored and Mark wasn't there to defend himself. It's just like... So if you had been credited with the goal, would you have been on the trip?

40:37basically, but instead he's walking his dog back here.

40:41Andy Mitten: These petty, pathetic arguments, I suppose, are why we love football, aren't we? I don't know, scoring a goal in a European Cup final, coming as cup as it was, it's kind of a big deal. Yeah, it is. Mark's been back on the circuit more, which is good, because I felt when he left Man United, and he managed, you know, Manchester City and Stoke City and Fulham and Blackburn, he didn't want to talk about Man United, and people were affronted by that a little bit. They were, yeah. I remember it very well. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when he was at City. Yeah. And his view was like, I'm looking forward, not back.

41:15Andy Mitten: Okay, but you're a great man United playing. It was awkward. 15th best, apparently. Yeah, it was awkward. So I'm glad, as you say, it has come fully round. Time's a healer, isn't it? The love is flowing for him. But he did do one to Barcelona. Broke my heart. He did come back, yeah. That's why he's in the list. Beat him in a final afterwards. Yeah. And if he wouldn't have come back, he wouldn't have been in the list. So there you go. Brilliant figure. And he deserves to be where he is, like you say.

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43:56We mentioned Gary Neville before but we need to do another group of Ferguson players shall we say just sort of take these together and Neville and Beckham was a hell of a right-hand side for United in that treble winning season and throughout that period as well like we've said the best, most glorious era in the club's history. And he's made it in at number 16.

44:19Andy Mitten: I don't think I would have done anyway. If I feel it, I've got too much on. I think he's got things going on maybe that, you know, not necessarily his ranking in your 25 all-time list would be primary. But one thing that's forgotten about him, he was an absolutely Manchester United obsessed kid. He was. Who achieved his dream. And I know he's done a lot in his life. and away from football and in football he's achieved a lot of things but I still believe from hearing stories about him that he feels that the the best thing he's done in his career is play for Manchester United he's a reason a major reason why Manchester United are so popular globally I went to Pakistan in the summer of 22 on the way to the pre-season tour and I met a group of 30 to 40 Pakistani Reds and they were lads in the 30s and I said why should support Man United and the main reason was David Beckham.

45:12Andy Mitten: I was really struck by that. He was so, so big. But do you think that sort of clouds sometimes how good a footballer he actually was? Yeah, yeah, it does. I saw a clip the other day of him crossing at Anfield for Dwight York header actually and it's just the first time. He's a top player. Amazing. You look at the crossing now sometimes and you're like, it's just no way near. Yeah. The opposite of Dennis Irwin in a way where he's sort of been talked about so much as an underrated player that he's ended up being rated. I don't think Beckham's ability is talked about enough where I think he is actually underrated now.

45:43Andy Mitten: But I also remember when he left, the Madrid press were saying, we've taken Manchester United's best player. And he wasn't. He was the 4-4-5th best in a great, great team. So he did benefit from profile and being a good-looking lad. Got a few good-looking lads in this list, haven't you? Yeah. Well, Beckham was like this sort of iconic figure in terms of, you know, his image was a really strong part of him. look he was a top united player i love the fact that um his dad was a big united fan and teddy's dad and sandra's his mum were going to all the youth team games with all the cockney reds he did you're right he realized his dream yeah gets forgotten about with him a little bit and united made a huge profit out of him okay merchandise it was the record sale for a long time as well yeah he's still probably top five six and the fact that 25 million he did really well at madrid he wasn't he was good enough to play for real madrid and then ac milan and then psg yeah yeah yeah and the end of his career almost yeah and he sort of cherry picked these amazing places to play football that's what i'd do if i had a career i know and do you want to live in milan for a year why not paris for a year la go on then he earned the right to make that choice didn't i think he also from a profile perspective it's a totally different point but even you know us football us soccer you know what he what he achieved in that time it still feels like the legacy that he built around that period is still holding firm in MLS and showing a way for these legendary players to go and play in America.

47:15I always remember with Beckham doing a press conference, I think it was for UNICEF when he'd come back to Old Trafford to play in a charity game and he walked into this room, I think it was the Europa suite as was in the south stand at Old Trafford and there's a group of journalists cameras I don't know there's probably 50 60 people in the room a lot of them hardened hacks you know it's old newspaper days and just hearing like the room melt as he walked in and said hello to everyone how you doing he's sort of this like unbelievable quality I've never witnessed it with anyone else of just he smiles and everyone was just smiling all of a sudden you're looking around these like hardened hacks have got huge grins on their faces because David Beckham's just walked in the room what a quality that is to have

48:01Andy Mitten: I've got a slightly similar story. I was once in a huge restaurant, nightclub sort of place in Bangkok with gigs, skulls, butt, Neville, Neville. No one recognised them. What are you doing in there with them? It was a working job. Okay. You're being paid to be in a nightclub with them? I was in charge of the music in our little bit of it. And we're having a nice night. What did David Beckham think of your music choice? David Beckham joined us and said something like, what's this shit? What were you playing? Well, Manchester stuff. Okay. And he like giving it some Cockney stuff or whatever his mates in LA are telling him to play.

48:42Andy Mitten: So we had a bit of an argument as I'm like, you know, defending the merits of Northside or whoever it was, the Smiths. Wow. And he walked in the whole place. Wow. like A-lister. Ryan Giggs is a massive footballing name, wasn't he? David Beckham. I remember once thinking he's like the fourth biggest brand in world football. Man United, Barcelona, Real Madrid, David Beckham, Bayern Munich, Liverpool. You know, he was so... There was a statistic for it. He was so big. Yeah. It's kind of led the way to the modern day Messi-Ronaldo thing as well, isn't it, really? Where you're obsessed with a player rather than a team and following their career.

49:24Right, let's continue it because we could talk all day about David Beckham. Another cop-out, Larry, that I'm sure you'll want to pick out, Vidic and Ferdinand together at number 13. We've touched on it already, haven't we? But listen, I suppose if you've got Nemanja Vidic, a slightly hard Serbian, telling you what to do with your list, you'd sort of listen to him.

49:42Andy Mitten: Came at a really difficult moment because I was working on a story about threats he'd received from the underworld for the Athletic and I'm deep into this story where I did speak to a lawyer like 80 times and it was about Nemanja and you know the story was broken and newspapers broke the story as well so I'm having these really really difficult conversations with him and it was actually quite nice to say oh and by the way you're in a list and Nemanja being Nemanja I get on great with him well you you'll both know you meet hundreds of footballers and some you just spark with and me and him just spark and his wife says my husband doesn't like journalists why does he like you i said good question he doesn't just like me he absolutely buzzes off me and um said you're in this list he said i'm only coming in with real both world-class defenders absolute both deserve to have their own numbers in some ways yeah testimonies from people like gerard pk who had spoken to when i knew gerard when he played for for united binned me off when he met Shakira.

50:48Rightfully.

50:49Andy Mitten: Yeah. And Nemanja was another one who sent a video. Hi, it's Nemanja Vidic here. I just heard that I took 13 plays together with Rio. It seems like that we are still going as a package. I have to say it's the honour to be considered and to be part of this list among some of the players that I admire as a young kid and some fantastic players I play with. I'm looking forward to see who is the next player that is coming on this list. Yeah, fantastic to get that from Nemanja. And no question, those two together being obviously a key part in Manchester United's last Champions League win back in 2008 and obviously the side that got to three finals in four years.

51:40Very, very important figures in Manchester United's more recent history. he says he was looking forward to who's next on the list now this is an extremely important figure from Manchester United's past one of the most heralded players and perhaps the saddest story in United's history as well because number 12 is Duncan Edwards Duncan Edwards could have been number one on the list but he died at Munich and he didn't actually play that many games for

52:07Andy Mitten: Manchester United which makes him even more remarkable because you have people like Bobby charlton speaking better than him over any player ever literally saying he's the best ever player that he's played with bobby charlton said that and he was from the west midlands he traveled up to sign for united with a man called gordon clayton who was a goalkeeper and i knew gordon he was my dad's manager died quite young gordon gordon looked after me when i was a kid and he would tell me about duncan edwards on the team coach to away games wow i had to take it all in and him and Duncan were top mates they moved up and lived together Gordon didn't make it as a pro at United often happens Duncan absolutely did and one of the greats of Manchester United's history so what went against him was his lack of games not everyone liked that because there is a generation very older now but they feel that he he's like the greatest player ever one former United coach messaged me and said Sir Bobby Charlton will be turning in his grave that Duncan is only in that position yeah I was actually watching United at the time in Trondheim during the game thanks for the feedback cheers for that anyway how's your summer going opinions were strong but that that also showed people were engaging heavily in this I didn't even know this coach read my stuff.

53:33No, okay. I think with Duncan Edwards, he's like the iconic Busby Babe, isn't he? He's almost the ultimate player from that era. And the fact that he was snatched away by the Munich Air disaster in 1958 only really adds to his legend when you look back, if you know what I mean. What were the aspects about him that stood out when you spoke to people? because I've heard a lot of people say he had the potential to be one of the greatest footballers ever. What was the actual sort of talents that he had that people spoke about?

54:07Andy Mitten: I think physically he was like a colossus, but he wasn't the biggest player. I think his technical ability. Playing with balls and boots and pitches, which were a long, long way than what they are now. Heavy, all of them. His reading of the game in a very different tactical system as well. and you had this great group of players they all they all looked up to him he was the main man it wasn't bobby charlton it was duncan edwards so the charisma that he had um the personality and yet he was also quiet and private and so he must have had one hell of a presence and the way that he died he didn't die immediately in the crash he survived for a couple of weeks later and was asking about when the game the next game was going to be because he thought he could play and he couldn't because he died.

54:59Andy Mitten: It's really, really sad. The legacy of Edwards lives really strongly. There's stained glass windows, there's memorials, there's statues in Dudley, which is a very hard-bitten working-class area of the West Midlands. His mother, Sarah, attended the European Cup final 10 years later. She was so proud of the boys. The lads felt terrible because her son had died. and Paddy Crerence said like United wouldn't have signed me if your son would be alive he felt guilty to celebrate and there's a real strong connection people still go to Dudley as like a pilgrimage United fans still go there there are people curating the museum um I met a member of his family this year at the Munich Memorial it was lovely his legacy burns really strongly as one of the greatest ever Manchester United players I'm sorry he couldn't have been higher but I had to decide who was where and it was almost impossible toughest one to place yeah yeah i can see that yeah yeah i can't even give you stick about it no i know i know i want to i mean how do you as i said he could have been number one yeah yeah yeah but but he died what allowance do i do i i give for that yeah okay number 11 this completes the video for today or the list for today and it's a goalkeeper.

56:23It's the only goalkeeper on the list and Manchester United have had some legendary keepers from down the years. I mean David De Gea, seventh in the all-time appearance list. You said you gave weight to longevity, 545 appearances. Alex Stepney, eighth on the all-time list, goalkeeper in the first ever European Cup final win in 68, 539 appearances for Manchester United. Edwin van der Sar, absolutely completely legendary keeper harry greg you mentioned him before and everything about his

56:56Andy Mitten: story but none of them made it one did i made a point of mentioning all of them and i chose schmeichel probably the one i got on um least with you know we had a really bumpy relationship when he played he was a real awkward fella and he's a totally different human now and i see him and I really like him. He's a big Manchester United fan now. He is. He kicks every ball. He does. I watch games with him. I know and I know you speak really well of him and I can see that but when he played he was hard. Oh yeah. He was hard work and from his perspective he was probably so motivated that he didn't care if he ruffled feathers.

57:40Andy Mitten: Whosoever they were. Including his own teammates. He really annoyed people and I fell out with him I had disagreements with him but I didn't let that colour the fact that he's probably the greatest ever Manchester United goalkeeper and I spoke to other people about that and they agreed with me people who've coached played and yeah deserves to be in there So I told him he was going to be in. Didn't respond. And then next time he saw me, he said, thanks. He was really buzzing. When you're saying about ranking these keepers, we had Eric Steele on the show a few months ago now, and he's worked with Peter Schmeichel, Edwin van der Sar, and David de Gea as well.

58:32And this is the judgment that he made when we asked him. Schmeichel, van der Sar, and David. Who's the best? I would think as a generation, I can't give it. I still put them three up there. They're all number one. They're on that. You imagine now, I think Schmeichel would win it, getting on the roster into the gold. I think Peter might win it. He might just push them two off. Yeah, I think Eric Steele's well placed to make that kind of call. Backed him up. Yeah. I mean, he signed David De Gea, so you think maybe he would have that as a personal favourite. Obviously, work with Schmeichel, I think, at Aston Villa and maybe City as well, I'm not sure, but not at United.

59:07But then, obviously, Van der Sar at United when they were in all those European Cup finals. So I think he's well placed. I swear to Nicky Butt about this actually as well and he is absolutely glowing in his praise of Peter Schmeichel saying that in training he would pull off these saves that you just couldn't get your head around and then that would translate into matches and his value to the team he reckoned was I think worth 10 points a season or something like that. And okay, he didn't then play with De Gea and van der Sar but I think that resounding backing for somebody that, as you say, caused friction in the squad at times given his high demands, given his style of training with them, I think speaks volumes.

59:42Yeah, a brilliant figure for Manchester United, no doubt at all. Okay, well that brings us to an end of our rundown for this show from 25 to 11. Remember, we've got two more episodes coming your way to get through the rest of the list, but let's take a quick look back then at the names that are in this illustrious list that Andy Mitton has selected. I ran through 25 through to 21 before, but number 20, Gary Neville. number 19, basically every single striker that played for Manchester United in the 98-99 treble winning season, number 8, Martin Buchan, number 17, Paddy Carrerand and Nobby Stiles, number 16, David Beckham, number 15, Mark Hughes, 14, Rud van Nistelrooy, 13, that iconic pairing, Nemanja Vidic and Rio Ferdinand, number 12, Duncan Edwards, and number 11, Peter Smeichel.

1:00:30what a list it only makes me excited to see who has made the top 10 of Andy Mitton's all time greatest Manchester United players so join us for that for the minute Andy, Laurie thank you very much and thank you for listening and watching along we'll see you soon take care bye bye

1:01:10The Athletic FC.

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