Man United's Greatest Players: Part Two

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1:29The Athletic FC.

1:47This is Talk The Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United and coming up today we're into the top 10 of Andy Mitton's list of Manchester United's greatest ever players. We've already recorded one episode, which was looking at numbers 25 through to 11. So go back and have a look at that before you jump into this, because what a list we have got. The stories, the anecdotes, strap yourselves in. This is the top 10. Andy's here in the studio. It's Andy Mitton's list. He's done this for The Athletic over the summer. You might have seen the articles already. Laurie and I are here to pick holes in the list, basically.

2:21That's our key role. If you're wondering how he's put this list together, the exact process, who he's spoken to, he explained it at the start of the last show so go back and have a look at that and um yeah here we go manchester united's top 10 only place to start number 10 who is it

2:42Andy Mitten: cristiano ronaldo well that'll go down well on the internet won't it it didn't go down well no um he could have been number one as well had he's not left yeah he not left but he did leave so I've got to make judgments. Had he not come back would he have been higher in the list?

3:03Andy Mitten: I don't think I went against him coming back but I don't think it was a good idea to come back maybe for that first year but I think history will judge that return badly. Possibly, probably the greatest ever player to play for United from a skill and impact. Really? You speak to lads and they just if you spoke to Gary Neville he would say Ronaldo's the best. This list isn't the best. This is the greatest. How do you define greatest? Ooh, okay. I like that. Yeah? Difference of definitions. There is a difference. It's not just what you did. Well, you're not judging whether they're a great player as such.

3:38Their ability solely. It's also about their career and the mark they've left. At United. On Manchester United. Only at United. Yeah.

3:47Andy Mitten: So, what he did at Real Madrid. But he was made at United. He won the Ballon d 'Or at United. Sporting fans may disagree, but your point is right. He grew from being... Forged at United. Forged at United. Because he got kicked in training every day when he first came. Ran around with weights on his ankles to make sure that his skills could be sharp as possible. A bit of Carrington. Yeah. And there's amazing stories around that from players. Diego Full and Dad just calling him one day and going, that lad's going to be one of the best players in the world. Just watching him training. Quinton Fortune will say that you could set Ronaldo any task and he would achieve it with a football within a week he'd master it he saw it as a challenge and he grew in a really good environment where he was protected especially by Carlos Quieros but by Ferguson as well who nurtured the talent allowed him to play with great players around him which a lot of players don't have that privilege and became United's first Ballon d 'Or winner since the 60s I mean that that says it all he won the Ballon d 'Or he was a he was the best player in a team that became english european and world champions he was the best player in my opinion and it could easily have been another treble couldn't it yeah but yeah um when well portsmouth 2008 never one will know about it oh well well you know united battered him and then uh kujak got sent off re-affirmed now to go and go for the penalty one nil lost 16 last quarter final i think it was six didn't they beat cardiff in the final or something it was a dead easy route after that but uh but yeah neraldo i think the fact that you've got somebody as hardened and difficult to please shall we say as roy keen speaks so highly of him when you think when he first came show pony i mean i was there at his debut in the stands against bolton it was breathtaking but it was like step over step over step over and there was a bit of end product but you could like it was it was a thrilling debut you were like wow okay who is this player that united have signed but it took three years for him really to motor and then he had spaghetti yeah didn't he had spaghetti hair the little you never through that you never asked for that in the little blonde dye at the end of your no hair tips i've been tempted but you know maybe maybe in time maybe that moment has passed i think um but it's that cardiff final on it against millwall where he started to really rev it up and i think from that moment it was you know his stardom was destined it was always destined wasn't it but it really sort of moat at that point.

6:13I mean, 2008, the sort of, again, I think these United players, they need to have a bit of controversy in them as well to be great. I don't know why I think that. I think it's maybe because I've grown up with some controversial players like Eric Cantona, Roy Keane, David Beckham to a degree, Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo definitely. I mean, he sort of arrived back in Manchester in disgrace after getting Wayne Rooney sent off. and winking, the winker. And then comes back to Manchester United and the season he had, or the two seasons he had, just absolutely incredible. It was three seasons from that point, wasn't it?

6:53But yeah, those two in particular. But that opening day against Fulham was breathtaking. Him and Rooney combining. Fergie had gone out, I'd need to sort of solve it all between him and Ronaldo. So that's a sign of his management and knowing the moment and how to address it. It's mad that Rooney forgave him so quickly in some ways. Yeah, I mean, I guess... When he speaks about it, Rooney, I've heard him talk about it a few times, whether it's the line he gives or whether it's the truth with him. I'd imagine it's the truth because he does tend to wear his heart on his sleeve with these sort of things.

7:23He just said it's football. He did stamp on Carvalho, didn't he? It's not Ronaldo that's got him sent off necessarily. It was the wink. It is the wink. It was the wink.

7:32Andy Mitten: But coming back in that environment is so close to another word which really helped tabloid editors. The cheeky winker. Yeah, okay. yeah but i think coming back in that environment and doing what he did and i have to say i'm fond of a lot of united's teams but they were the best team in the world weren't they at that point and he was the best player yeah exactly and i can hear his name echoing through the underground in moscow yeah so viva ronaldo as you're going up the escalators so to the ground i'm glad you said that song because it was in rome where it kicked off it's good uh oh the header yeah when he's come from like off screen you watch it on telly he's not there and then he's there yeah so olympico in rome is one of the most atmospheric stadiums in the world it's better than old trafford because the ultras are so well organized and for a european game it is 80 000 people and it is a real bear pit it's brilliant it's a great place to watch football and i've got a lot of respect for Roma fans will see that Old Trafford.

8:36Andy Mitten: We couldn't hear them because United fans started singing this song that night, and it was original at the time. And I just hearing it because I was working that night because we were in the media. I just hear to my left. I don't hear the ultras of Roma. I just hear it. Viva Ronaldo. Viva Ronaldo. And it got louder. He's running down the wing. You hear United sing. And you're thinking, we're watching a great team here. It's coming together. You're watching brilliance. And his personal pursuit of excellence, I think, exceeded any other player by a distance. So not only was he... Ferguson shaped him to be a great team player, but his personal drive.

9:24Andy Mitten: I did Everest book with him, and he'd talk about going out of his house, you know, for beans on toast or whatever footballers ate, and being asked to, like... but first we've got to do 42 laps at a swimming pool. It's just stupid stories like that, which show that he was just addicted to being the very, very best version of himself. And then some. The transfer fee is still the record, isn't it, that it was sold for? His dream was to play for Real Madrid. They got him for an extra year. Fergie got him for an extra year. Yeah. He wanted to go off to the final, didn't he, in Moscow, and convinced him to stay.

10:01Andy Mitten: I'm glad he played for United. didn't always agree with some of the things he said but it doesn't really matter was buzzing when he came back probably wrong I think we were all buzzing when he came back even in that he had moments didn't he he scored 24 goals he rescued United in the Champions League hat trick well that group stage was him wasn't it it was mental and obviously it's just a different time he came back and it was the same club in his eyes as in it hadn't progressed and so his strive for excellence conflicts with what the club was. Because we've witnessed it as we've gone along. We've sort of seen things change gradually.

10:40But can you imagine leaving that place as the greatest in the world and the facility up there as one of the best in the world and then returning and it hadn't really changed that much in his eyes. And then his version of what he could do compared to what he was being asked to do under Ali, then definitely under Ralf Rangnick, then definitely under Eric Ten Hag. you know that but he you know for example you talk about the standards that you know diogo for example definitely then he loves him yeah kind of mimicked what he was doing in in certain ways like in terms of his diet and his training regime so um you know even that touch and and spoke to somebody recently about this and the whole dressing was buzzing to have him back and told like legitimately so this idea oh wow we've got a proper star here so i can whilst it you know Was it the right decision to bring him back?

11:29I don't know. But I still can see why they did it. That Newcastle game as well. The atmosphere, the sense of occasion. Felt proper box office. I wasn't there. It's not an old eye. It was one of the best games. Okay, it was the best game ever.

11:43Andy Mitten: I was doing that by Land's End, John O 'Groves. You know, the day he came back, I did an interview on Sky TV and I got a message from someone at the club. Go, I'm just seeing you on the TV. Edward Wood deserves the credit for that. He's the one who's worked the numbers. And that was quite triumphant in its tone. And the gist of him coming to me was like, you'd better give Ed the credit he deserves here. Not threatening at all, but just... And within the hour, I got a message from someone completely different, from the football side, not Olly Gunner, because people assume it's him, saying, I know you're all giddy, but we've basically got to rip up all our plans now of how Manchester United play football.

12:26Andy Mitten: and we were really onto something. Whoa. Didn't want to read that. This was before he kicked a ball. My brain didn't want to accept that. No. None of us did. Carl did. Carl was sat here telling us. It was a bad idea. We were giddy, giddy, giddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that person was right. Ultimately was right. And I said, why? And he said, he can't run like we want to play. But there were still people. I would still say that Solskjaer agreed or wanted maybe too strong, but certainly was on board with it, in my opinion, from what I've been told. How do you say no? Exactly. I know you probably can say no, and maybe you should say no, but how do you say no to that?

13:07But he was still in certain ways usable. It was just that he obviously couldn't accept not being a starter every time. So then you have the Everton game, for example, then it becomes a story, and then Solskjaer's cred is diminished a bit, and then that's where it affected things. If he could have been okay with being a certain type of player, starting a lot but not all the time in certain ways. I still don't think he's come to terms with that idea. Yeah, in Saudi Arabia, yeah. Or Portugal, yeah.

13:36Andy Mitten: Has he resigned? Has he retired from Portugal? Not yet, I think we're waiting, aren't we? But it'll be part of his head who wants to play 300 times for Portugal and that is a positive attribute of that drive and drive and drive if he thinks he's better than everyone by a mile and he has been but he's also human and it's caught up with him and he's also number 10 in your list as well so there's nine better players um number nine my my favorite as a kid i had a wall in my bedroom where no one else was allowed to be on the wall apart from eric canton are an absolute icon what a character what a figure was i right I've been reading in your introduction for this series that he was number one when this was done in 2004.

14:25Yeah. Was that a vote for?

14:28Andy Mitten: Was that the opus? That was the fans. That was fans, yeah. And I disagree with that now. Now and then? Obviously, you disagree with it now. You put him nine. Yeah. When I examine his contribution, I don't think he should be number one. Because of the length of time. He played that many games. Didn't score that many goals compared to the all-time list. Didn't really do it in European competition. Well, Dortmund and Monaco are the two, aren't they? Yeah. But he, in spite of all that, is a top-ten player because he was a magnificent footballer and human. He brought... The cliché is the final piece in the jigsaw that allowed United to win the title.

15:12Andy Mitten: Well, that was it, right? He goes from Leeds winning the title to United. and I've spoken to a few people from this period, 92, 93, because they weren't actually, early in the season, it wasn't clear, we've spoken before, they lost the first two games that season. He allowed them to play a slightly different way and then it got them over the line and that does deserve a lot of credibility. I don't think it is a cliche. I think he was the final piece. I think he's the most important player signing in Manchester United's last 20, well, longer than that now, last 50 years. For a steal as well. From a direct rival.

15:54Brilliant. Mad in it. League champions. Yeah. Well, Dennis Irwin has some role in this. Well, not personally, but obviously we'll call him for Dennis Irwin, weren't they? And Fergie said, how about Eric? Yeah. We're not having Dennis. We'll have Eric.

16:07Andy Mitten: Yeah. Just fantastic. Martin Edwards, wasn't it? Who said that? Well, there's different people claiming, you know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there are. Who signed Eric Cantona? There's a podcast in that. Yeah, yeah. Fergie, yeah, it was me. Martin Edwards, yeah, it was me actually. My first game was a Cantona special. It was Arsenal at home, 95-96. I think it was March 96. Yeah. Remember the goal against David Seaman? Did he have a cast on his arm? No, no, that was a different time. Is that another one? No, was that earlier? Like a volley? No, he chested it and volleyed it over Seaman basically. But it was a great goal.

16:43i was in tier two it just opened and wow okay this is what it's about right these special moments i actually thought going into it i was like oh i'll get his i'll get his signature no problem and then no you're absolutely miles from the action and there's like thousands of people that my little brain couldn't compute the difficulties so you were in the second tier of the biggest stand in english football thinking that you might be able to have a night i didn't know that's where i'd be standing sitting until so we got there and then i was like oh this is a lot bigger than i thought it was um but that kind of then stays with me as okay that's why it's magical i've never interviewed him i've never met him um as a journalist but i did meet him as a young fan outside the cliff and he stopped his car i don't really remember it but my mom and dad tell me the story that there used to be barriers that they put up in the car park at the cliff and you could wait there to get uh signatures and stuff like that so like one day in the summer holidays my dad would take me down and we'd wait for the players to come out of the cliff which is the old training ground for anyone who doesn't know it's the iconic sort of Busby Babes and Fergie's fledgling's class of 92 training ground and basically I was quite small at this point because I was really young and I couldn't get to the front to get a cantonized signature and it was only cantonized signature that I wanted so I waited a bit further back and he basically stopped his car while the window down signs the autograph gives it back to you and I just you know hearing that story and like I said he was my my absolute hero as a young kid

18:07Andy Mitten: to use the word they're iconic this is another reason he's in there he was so much more than a footballer yeah he was very different from most footballers he lived in a sort of upper working class lower middle class area most footballers didn't live there he'd be seen in the pebble of the peak a traditional great old pub in manchester he'd go in the corner house an art house um cinema he would go to places that footballers didn't go to fergie cut him completely different slack to all the other players even after he jumped into the crowd at cellars park we need to talk about the crowd is such a euphemism yeah okay after he got a kung fu kick on um matthew simmons at cellars park i mean i still don't think it was a kung fu kick i just feel you've studied the technique have you i feel that was a tabloid yeah karate kick but the collars and bruno fernandez won't let the current team put their collars up.

19:02Out of respect for him. He gets asked every year, it feels like, when he does his pitches and stuff, just flip the, you know, you might have a new kit and it's got a collar. Go and flip the collar up. Oh. You can't flip your collar up. The stage was big enough. Because it's Cantona's thing

19:13Andy Mitten: and we aren't worthy. Yeah. Why? The stage was big enough for him and it was the perfect meeting, the timing, the indulgence. United had started that season badly. Did not win the league for 26 years. and within two months of him being there, we're top of the league because of him. And then 95-96 when he's served the ban and he comes back against Liverpool, all the French flags in the crowd, he's got the collar up as he's walking out. 2-2 in the end, but it's like, it was a pretty memorable game, wasn't it? Like the early Nicky Buck goal, the penalty that he's swinging around. So he's kind of had two of those moments where he's come in and won United the title.

19:51And obviously you've got the first year that Manchester United didn't win the Premier League title when it was incarnated in 1992 was when he was missing.

19:59Andy Mitten: Yeah. And they lose the FA Cup final as well. But he would talk of French philosophers. He was so different. And the Seagulls followed the trawler. Yeah, but there were not a lot of continental players in the Premier League at the time. No. And you had the whole of Old Trafford singing the French national anthem in England. Good anthem, that though, isn't it? Oh, it's one of the best. It's up there with the Italian one. And the French couldn't believe it. Wait a minute. this idiot because he left there in disgrace so you would have like the best french journalists coming over from like le monde to this working class city which they had quite a low opinion of and were just completely captivated by cantonar no one having a word against him i defended him so strongly after jumping into the crowd it was front page news didn't you go down to london were you were you part of that part i was in the government was it government i didn't go i didn't go to court i remember i was at the game remember being in london remember the days after staying in london i was doing a work placement a paper and my phone just didn't stop non-stop it was me and paddy crerand who were basically going out to bat and defend eric cantonar against the whole of middle england saying this is a disgrace we go no it's not this guy's an idiot he's done what most footballers want to do and then people go down to to court and i i love derrick canton off well it adds to his legend and it does before about controversial figures there's definitely something about him doing that that's that's elevated it let's talk about greatness being different to best yeah there's always a element of sort of madness to greatness i would say yeah like it's a very thin line between genius and and yeah i guess idiocy but perhaps that's all part of the charm and he's he's cool he just his life choices the artwork he bankrolls a manchester artist to this day i love that i did interview him i once drove to marseille to see him i turned up and i said i'm bringing bad news um norman davis the kit man the guy who escorted him he died yesterday because i know through family and i shouldn't have told him because he was really upset and said okay can we cancel the interview do it tomorrow so i had another 24 hours in marseille worst places to be and then he gave me a great quote yeah it's good to say he gave me a quote about my biggest regret is the hooligan not kicking him hard enough that's just for war this is good it's gonna go boosh and then um we had some friends who'd who'd lost a baby stillborn and were heartbroken and threw themselves into charity and they were after items and i said to Eric I explained the situation and he said not an item we're in a hotel and there's a flip chart he said why don't I draw them a picture and you can auction it and it was this like Jean Miro s because he was he was Catalan in his roots and and he raised three thousand quid and it was just him with a marker pen for this charity and you know not many people could get away with that and it was good yeah not an art critic so maybe it wasn't good but I thought by Eric Cantona it's good when it was framed it looked brilliant yeah and um quite an item to own as well yeah but it's worth more than three grand now there's loads of that um just look and you've seen him since last time i saw him was in manchester to see an art exhibition and who's he with hi do you know hi is socrates his brother he's like the coolest ever brazilian i didn't really know about him but the only footballer my wife completely fancies i said i've just met hi he's like what and canton and him have become mates so it's greatness meets greatness yeah and um i think people will agree and disagree with his political views but he's absolutely attuned to what is going on in the world and you see the people who he mentions you know algerian activist footballers and stuff really makes you think eric cantono yeah the opposite of a cliche ridden footballer saying to be fair the lads will have to do better next week well it's definitely made you think to get him in at number nine it kind of shows just how difficult it is to put this list together and you could say these are the top 10 Manchester United players but putting them in order is almost impossible

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26:26Next up, 25 major honours. Probably, what, second most decorated player in Manchester United's history. 718 appearances, third highest in United's history, but only number eight, Paul Scholes.

26:45Andy Mitten: When I told David Mayo I was doing this list, he just replied and put Paul Scholes' end off. As in number one. Yeah. I disagreed with that. poor school yeah it's really high i don't like it when people say he should have been higher if you're a top 10 greatest manchester united player that's a big achievement you you you're among greatness anyone in this list is among greatness because you were great or are great and scoles was great and he has got a combination of appearances played in the best teams scored of key goals best one Barcelona semi-final most memorable most memorable one yeah he's scored a few worldies I mean away at Aston Villa on the volley from the court away at Bradford from the corner on the volley but yeah I think the Parath and I of course Chip just came into my head then as well but I think the Barcelona won you like chips don't you I like a little chip I've walked into that one as long as they've got sauce on yeah but the Barcelona won for everything that it represented and then giving because it led United to have only a third European Cup in the history, second for Ferguson, which is the thing that you kind of think, could they have got more?

27:57So that's why that goal then has even more value, plus the fact that it was a beautiful strike. Although, does he say he shinned it or something?

28:04Andy Mitten: Yeah. Yeah, he does. Well, he kind of did, but it was a great shin. And obviously missed the 1999 Champions League final with suspension, along with Roy Keane. He almost gets forgotten in that, because people talk about Keane missing that game so much. Yeah. But he's, you know, again, the stats say how important he is. But I think it's the way people talk about Scholes as well. And actually, I think with him more than others, he's almost remembered even higher than he was appreciated at the time. The Ginger Prince, he's from a council estate in North Manchester, Salford. The backstory is really good as well.

28:43Andy Mitten: the fact that he was spotted by Brian Kidd as Ferguson sought to reorganise and improve the youth system at Manchester United. Scholes was an Oldham fan, wasn't a Manchester United fan. He loved that great Oldham team under Joe Royal at the late 80s, start of the 90s. And the fact that he came back, he was so good. He never really said much, but when he did talk, he was really interesting. So you've got this contrast between the pundit post-Korea, who does say a lot. A lot of times he speaks really well. They have a mixed zone at United. They still do it today, which is on the concourse. So once the fans have cleared out, they set up an area where mainly newspaper journalists, but non-rights holders basically, can try and grab a word with players.

29:30And basically, Scholes would beat the staff because the staff had to clear the fans out and then set these barriers up. So there'd be a side that the players were on and a side that the journalists were on. and every single time you'd go in there after a european game they'd be setting up the barriers and before the barriers were set up skulls had gone yeah he was like that at training though as well i was speaking to quinton fortune about this and he used to say he'd look in his locker after he'd gone and be like is there an escape hatch in there or something because like how's he out of here so quickly yeah but obviously did the business at training and then in the matches because it was just obviously it was his quality and you look back at some of the matches and the the quickness of feet to then pass it the quick shimmy to get into space sense of control sense of control maybe that's later in his career but yeah i just don't feel like united have got close to that no really there's been players carrick being one of them uh who had a sense of it but he was with skulls a lot of the time he was and then also just the way that he stuck his boot in to be honest he was a terrible tackler really wasn't he but he kind of got away with it at times and it kind of then gave you that edge a bit he's not like he's not like he's obviously a very fancy footballer when you say about other people speaking so highly of him, like, you know, Zidane or Xavi.

30:41But that edge, I think, then endears him even more to fans. A lot of them quotes are false about him online.

30:48Andy Mitten: Yeah, true. If I just repeated them. No, you've not, because I'm responsible for a couple of them. The one from Socrates was one of mine. I went to Brazil to get that, and he didn't know it was a United fan. He just made it up. No, he talks about the red-haired boy who played for Manchester, and the Xavi Hernandez one was one of mine as well. Yeah. But then I started seeing ones, you know, Lionel Messi dreamed of being Paul Scholes. And I just thought, you're farming engagement here. That's absolute nonsense, this whole industry of false quotes around Paul Scholes. I think his opinion, though he didn't say much, what he did say really mattered to Ferguson as well.

31:24Andy Mitten: And Fergie would say to him, what about this? And he'd say it in his way. He just got, he's a knobbing him. And he might be talking about elite level footballers here. he knew what was pretty selfless. He knew what was good for the team. You know, and I said, um, on an earlier episode about going to the far East with a lot of them lads, the one I actually got on best with on that week long trip was, was skulls. And he was really curious about man United's fan culture. He was, he was the only one who asked questions of like, what's it like being in the away end at Liverpool? Is it safe for my son to go?

31:59Andy Mitten: So I quite, I really, really like him. And I think he's bright and observant. and intelligent. He will be remembered primarily as a truly great Manchester United player. How much would he cost in today's market? You could say that for anyone in the list, but he got great goals. He came back. A lot of the players would speak of him in training, who I've spoke to, don't know about yourselves, as the things he did in training. That's a cliche as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But he was doing those things in training, but he was also doing it in first team matches. 718, did you say? Yes. Wow. Wow. Third.

32:36Third. Yeah, behind two people we've not spoken about yet. And it's really interesting now, obviously, in his role at Salford. I interviewed him recently for their sort of new kit launch, going from red to orange, and kind of an acknowledgement that basically when the Class of 92 came in and tried to make Salford red, it was in reference to United. And Beckham's got more involved now recently and says it should be returned to orange. Obviously, he's got the style eye, I suppose. But Scholes is there involved in recruitment now at Salford. It'd be interesting to see if he can attach that quality that he had as a player and that certain sense of who a good player was or not and sort of generate it into that um and i also really admire the way that he's so open about his son aiden yeah and the autism that he has and showing that to people i think that as i asked him about that he said people have got in touch with him and say that that is something that they found beneficial to them so i know it's not necessarily goes into your thinking when it comes to stuff like this but and he is very opinionated and now you know obviously he's got the podcast for nicky but and so that can certainly rub some people up the wrong way but I think as a person I agree with you I've always found him very humble and not of an exalted level that he could easily be given how good he was one of my favorite stories that people have told me about United players down the years is Paul Scholes when he retired the first time and he'd not played football for a bit and mum and dad's neighbor Lenny who taught Aaron his lad who you mentioned before at school primary school I think it was, just casually said at a get-together at school, would you ever fancy playing?

34:07So he's like, this is to Scholes. Yeah, okay, I'll play. So he'd had like this Boundary Park vets team. And I think at the time the videos were going around of Scholes playing for this team. So people may have seen it. But basically, Scholes comes the first week. They won something like 16-2 in half an hour and Scholes scored 14 and set up the other two. So it was like absolutely ridiculous. and this is obviously just finishing playing Premier League football and then jumping straight into a very average vets level in Oldham. But basically, he would come down every now and then, he'd be part of the group and he'd be up for it this week, yeah, I'll play this week.

34:43And then one week he'd just stop replying and Lenny was perplexed by this. And anyway, I went with my dad and Lenny was there to the local pub to watch Manchester United play Manchester City in the FA Cup third round. And Lenny tells the story, someone asked him, Scholes is still playing for your team. I said, well, I actually have not heard from him recently. And I don't remember if it actually did play out like this, but it felt like at that very moment he looked up and went, bloody hell, he's on the bench. And later, Scholes said to him, I'm really sorry that I didn't reply, but I couldn't because I was training with United secretly for this big reveal in the FA Cup third round to return and play for Manchester United again.

35:25Just a brilliant story. It just speaks how understated he was. He just went to the sports shop on the way there to buy a pair of boots and stuff like that. Just so unassuming, but an absolutely incredible football. A big reveal ahead of his time, eh?

35:36Andy Mitten: Yeah. We won't be able to do it now, I don't think, would you? No. I don't know if you'd be able to keep it a secret like that. I mean, it's only about, what, 15 years ago. Yeah. Did he get away with it a bit because he was training? Was he training with a bit of the 21s? I think he was doing a little bit of coaching, maybe. A bit of coaching. He could kind of hide it in that way. So him turning up at the training ground wasn't unusual if anyone had spotted it. But the players didn't know. No, no. team bus didn't know no they just thought he was coming along just basically walked on the coach yeah the pair of boots in a bag he'd just bought from jb sports or something on his way there and yeah and ended up he came on and he wasn't very good actually was he united with three up at the etihad and if and get ended up three two didn't it but anyway gave the ball away twice yeah something like that incredible footballer um brilliant and an academy player as well and actually as we as we go through this top 10 there's four of them he's the first one and that that's an important part of these players' stories.

36:30This is the one I've got the biggest issue with, Mr. Mitten. And you know I love and respect you, but how on earth is Wayne Rooney only number seven?

36:37Andy Mitten: Because of six players. Top scorer in the history of the club, the greatest goal scorer, greatest goal scorer in United's history. Sixth in the all-time appearances list. You valued longevity as well. Part of probably the greatest Manchester United team ever as well. Probably the one who got the most seven. Big four. rightly so by the way for um for the low position because i feel that there were six players who should have been above him in the list for the reasons that i put but i appreciate i'm arguing from a position of weakness when you look at his longevity his goals all the factors i've mentioned yeah he qualifies for absolutely all of them so why is he annoying me then to put me well he hasn't because he's seventh i've given him a i've given him a beautiful number but actually he didn't West, Evan, did he?

37:27Andy Mitten: Is he an Everton fan? No, can't really hold that against him. He was brilliant for Manchester United and I'd rather celebrate the positive. Did he ask to go to City? Twice. He did. He did. You know... Did he? He was... What are you saying? It was all part of a new contract play. Well, obviously he says it's because, you know, United weren't making moves in the transfer market, really, which actually, wow. what a because he was probably right but like to say that and go against ferguson like that and that did that did that affect their relationship yeah it did and the second time it happened uh in fergie's final year i think he was on his way out but fergie beat him to it by stepping down i agree and then they couldn't let rooney go because did they give him a new contract that summer so he was going right people wanted him he would have left he was in midfield for the majority of that final season the first time he'd been pushed back he's been dropped well van persie was up front so fans and journalists can sometimes have selective memories i remember on the 6th of august 2013 BBC Radio 5 ringing me United were in Stockholm and asking what the mood was around Wayne Rooney and I could not find a single Manchester United fan who wanted him to stay at the club and I'm with the hardcore the 50 or 60 and for people who weren't around or adults or you know whatever remember why?

39:02Andy Mitten: because Chelsea wanted him and he was amenable to leaving he wanted to go he would have gone so maybe i mark that against him he didn't go united refused to sell him it is to ed woodward's credit and to david molly's credit because a really turbulent summer it's not been remembered well that summer no it hasn't but two weeks later i was in the away end at swansea first game of the season and rooney was on the bench and he started and he he had a sulky demeanor because he probably wanted to leave and he probably thought he was getting a load of abuse that day half the away end got behind him and half didn't i've never seen this before and he came on and was the best player united one within two weeks united fans were singing his name again so when people say to me impossible now for marcus rashford nothing is impossible because i've seen it with wayne rooney and there have been others and then he became by a distance the best manchester united player in that first season a tough season under david moyes and yet he got the huge contract huge contract you know but buddy was probably worth it at the start of that contract and then he then he faded a little bit wayne rooney was a world world-class player um i interviewed him when he was 16 almost impossible for honest when he was at everton sorry um 18 yeah and him and Ronaldinho had been put together on the front of a video game and I met him yeah didn't both it's about a day with both of them in Barcelona it's not a bad duo that is it was a good job to have quite a trio lorry actually how many medals between three of you and it was that bad to interview that I had to say to the people around him I can't put this on the front cover of magazine I'm pleased to say that 10 20 years later he got better and better as a talker oh he's actually really good as a pundit now i think yeah yeah clean and analytical but yeah and i think he was a kid as well wasn't he yeah well well that was the thing though it was yeah it was it was a physically a beast though wasn't it i remember being at united he was playing for everton and he came off the bench and he tore united apart united still won but like it was scary when he got the ball and i think gary never was playing in it i sort of remember a run and you're thinking, okay.

41:25And he hacked down Ronaldo at one point, I think it was in that game, and everyone's sort of on his case. He's played with rage. Yeah. Street footballer. Well, that goal against Newcastle, he's arguing with the referee. Next second, boom, volley, top corner, goes back to arguing with the referee. I don't know if you've got those complementary aspects to your personality and skill set. And I think it's worth remembering how much of a, just a roaring ride he brought to United when he first joined. That Fenerbahce game. That hat trick in your first game for United.

41:58Andy Mitten: 35 minute hat trick or something. Ridiculous. And the goals were great as well. Left foot, right foot. The little rip. The rip. Because his neck won't fit through it. Or his neck won't fit through the shirt. I thought he was saying he needs a couple of years, this lad. He needed minutes. I knew the lads who did the Everton fanzine. And when he broke through, they were saying, he's just scored today. He's brilliant. And then two hours later, he's outside the local shops on his mountain bike. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They had to follow him around, didn't they, to try and keep him away from certain situations.

42:27He told me the story after he scored the Arsenal goal against David Seaman for Everton that he just went and played Wally with his mates back where he lived that night. You know, just absolutely obsessed and addicted to football, yeah. Do you need to explain Wally to people that might not know? How do I explain Wally? If you've not played Wally, basically you kick a ball against a wall with your mates and the object of the game is to hit the wall and you try and make it difficult for... Kind of self-explanatory, really. Your friends to hit the wall. Sounds a bit like a paddle now. Yeah, but it's just the wall aspect.

42:58Anyway.

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44:49I think with him as well for me from a personal perspective and why I would argue that he needs to be higher because these lists are subjective like you said he signed for Manchester United on my 18th birthday yeah the first time I came home from university to watch United was his debut against Fenerbahce the first summer I spent even in a pub watching an international tournament was Euro 2004 when he was, you know, by far the best player in the tournament. Yeah. You know, if he hadn't been injured, maybe England would have won it. Yeah, I agree. But it's just those pure qualities. And one thing about him that I really love is that he always seemed to just stay true to himself.

45:25He never seemed like he changed. He always seemed to be that same young lad who'd come through. And it's probably to his detriment in some ways that maybe he didn't even have as much longevity as he could. And saying that, you know, he's six on the all-time list of appearances and he played for three other clubs at each end of his career. And he's first on the all-time scorers list. But even like, I don't know, even the sort of team player he was. That's the big thing, actually. The time when Ronaldo and Tevez were also there. How good a player he was. He's the one in the Nou Camp doing the up and down, I think, because did Ronaldo start up front when they missed the pen?

46:02I think so, yeah. and then different other games it was only that was it 2009 so after Ronaldo had gone well basically he's then asked to lead the line and he goes and scores 30 odd goals yeah

46:14Andy Mitten: he scored the goal and was man of the match when Manchester United became champions of the world yeah I'd forgotten that yeah I don't just because people in England don't rate that tournament doesn't mean that it's not valid it's a huge deal in South America certainly felt like a huge deal for the people who went there And he came to the fore that night. Manchester United, champions of the world. It saddens me. Yeah. It saddens me thinking about it. Just the next morning, I got up early, I couldn't sleep, and I just walked past a fisherman in Yokohama. Radiohead had put a brilliant album out that year.

46:54Andy Mitten: I just remember Manchester United, champions of the world. And I remember thinking, life cannot get any better than this. And it didn't. Although my wedding was a great day and the birth of my daughters was fantastic, love. Disclaimer. That's where we have to finish it with Wayne Rooney, I think. The last one that we're going to do on this episode, another Ballon d 'Or winner. The 1962, 64 Ballon d 'Or winner. Dennis Law, the lawman, the king, the original king of the Stretford End. I mean his statue is outside Old Trafford his statue is inside Old Trafford he's the only one that's got two he's got more he's got one in Aberdeen as well right okay he's the only one who's got two at Old Trafford basically I mean there's Sir Bobby Charlton there's George Best and there's Dennis Law they stand there together shoulder to shoulder outside and there's a reason for that only number six well you can hit me with all of these on every one and i would say who you're going to put above them who should be losing their place you know dennis law we'll get to that on the next episode well we can get to on the next episode dennis law was one of the best of if not the best striker in the world he was a he was a pure um center forward people like ferguson would pick him above others and ferguson was out of his generation he was a scott there's fantastic quotes from paddy creran about about dennis law you know he'd fight his shadow all that sort of stuff and was quite shy as well and parallels with skulls actually shy but yet goes on tv and he's a really acerbic yeah critic a lot of preeminent pundit really wasn't it fair in his day stay stayed in manchester i i did interview him lots of times his daughter diana was um united's impressed lady for a long time top girl and And Dennis was one of the Trinity and a hero, the king of the Stratford End.

48:58Andy Mitten: I mean, the king of the Stratford End. There's only one player with a statue inside the Stratford End, and it is Dennis Law. And people of a generation wanted to be Dennis Law. They celebrated and pulled their cuff over their sleeve like Dennis Law did. Hard bastard as well. That's what loads of people say about him. And you needed a bit of that. every team needed a bit of that his goal scoring record is is up there among the best of uh those third in the all-time list 237 goal yeah yeah played for city twice two spells at city um went to italy when very different going to italy in the 60s compared to now spotted by bill shankley huddersfield town so you loads of sliding doors moments throughout his career where he could have ended up going to Liverpool but he ends up at Manchester United the lawman one thing in your article that stood out is a quote I think Paddy Crerand told you that he was Samat Busby's yeah best player yeah so Busby would never be drawn on this but if I if he'd had a few drinks he'd let it slip we've all had those moments haven't we yeah and he would say that Dennis Law yeah he was the best fellow Scott fellow Scott bit of bias there and you'd see fergie sometimes and fergie's fergie but it'd be in awe of dennis law saying something yeah yeah because he was so good and scotland produced some world-class players country of five million people and kenny dog leash was a world-class player then there's several of them and and dennis law you know he didn't come through the academy system he was a british record transfer fee this was signed when united was still recovering from munich and united had to spend away out of a problem so maybe parallels with the the modern day they went to italy and signed player for a huge huge fee and the word was that the club didn't have the money they had to borrow it off like wealthy manchester business people had to dig deep to bring dennis law to old trafford but a few years in and it seemed like a bargain did he relegate Manchester United for Manchester City no he didn't you know we're going down and Law had gone back to Manchester City and there's this myth that Dennis Law's back heel relegated Manchester United it didn't United would have gone down anyway but he was heartbroken it's this was at Old Trafford and he went into the wrong dressing room afterwards and just sat there crying in a Manchester City shirt in the Manchester United dressing room.

51:44Andy Mitten: Amazing image, isn't it? Yeah. No one can say anything to him because this great love of his life, are you allowed more than one love? But he'd relegated them. I remember interviewing him when I think one of his books had maybe come out. It's a good while ago now. And pretty much the only thing I was told was just be careful with that yeah talk about anything you'd like yeah but just be careful with that make sure it's asked in the right way otherwise you're not going to get the response that you uh that you may be after yeah and it's such an important part of his story in some ways when he died i unfortunately have to tell people tell me and ask me to tell players just never planned for or anything like this happening, but this has happened.

52:34Andy Mitten: So I had to ring Brian Kidd, say, Kidd-o, Dennis Law died. Kidd-o was his teammate and he'd give me the most incredible words about him. He'd just say, he said, Andy, all the lawmen would say to me is put the ball in the middle and I'll be there and if I'm not, I'm the one at fault, not you. and Kiddo just was a young Manchester lad put in with these three world-class strikers

53:09Andy Mitten: completely reverential to all of them but a bit younger than all of them and the lads have all died because they were older than him but they died for various reasons yeah he won the Ballon d 'Or he was the European Footballer of the Year playing for Manchester United Manchester United's first one of three in the same decade yeah wow well one of three across four years 1964 yeah he was the first one yeah absolutely incredible right well that brings us to a close then on this episode we've run down numbers 10 to 6 what a list of players this is by the way just to remind you number 10 Cristiano Ronaldo number 9 Eric Cantona number 8 Paul Scholes number 7 Wayne Rooney and number 6 Dennis Law Andy and Laurie thank you very much thank you for watching and listening along as well and do join us for our final rundown of Manchester United's greatest ever five players in the opinion of Andy Mitton thanks for watching cheers

54:33The Athletic FC.

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