Problems pile up for Carrick & Man United

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2:02The Athletic FC.

2:19This is Talk of the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. we're back coming up we will dissect unfortunately another defeat for United this time 3-2 at home to Brighton and an exit early again from the Carabao Cup we'll also talk about JJ Gabriel's situation and everything that's happened with him during the course of this week and if we can muster the energy we'll preview the match against Fulham because it has not been a good 48-72 whatever hours for Manchester United no question about that Kerison Laurie are here in the studio with us Andy's joining at home as well. And it's Groundhog Day again, Laurie, because how are we here again?

2:58It feels a bit like Grimsby, doesn't it? I mean, first time of asking, United trying to get through in a situation that felt promising at one stage. And ultimately, it descended into a really damaging, awkward, difficult defeat that brings big questions to the players, the coaching, the executives. I think it's one of those kind of defeats where you're sort of examining everything, really. And I don't think it's an overreaction, that, given the fact that Carrick came in and totally transformed the mood and got United into the Champions League. And it was only Thursday that we were winning 4-0 in the Champions League.

3:36Remember that? Yeah, I know. That was last week. Just seven days ago. But the manner of it was so alarming and unacceptable, really. So, yeah, that's why it feels here we are again, getting beat by Brighton again at Old Trafford in a cup competition and also going out of the first stage of a domestic cup competition again. You're sort of thinking, well, they can't have 40 games this season at least, but maybe they won't have many more if they keep playing like that. Kerry, she were there. How bad was it? It was pretty bad. I don't know if I'd go Grimsby level just because of the comparative level of the opposition and quite how bleak that was.

4:14But what was so disappointing about it was that even though it was unprecedented in terms of letting a half-time lead slip at Old Trafford, that record go in, letting a two-goal lead slip at Old Trafford for the first time since, I think, 1976, despite the fact it was unprecedented, it felt so predictable. I think by half time I was sort of having a really nagging feeling of this could go really badly wrong because we've seen United fail to kill off games, fail to approach them with the right urgency this season we've seen how vulnerable they are defensively and even though the first 10 minutes, 15 minutes was great by about 25-30 minutes you're thinking these issues are still here and they're not answering them correctly and Brighton punished them for that and it was fully deserved.

5:05And then the mood and the atmosphere in the stadium was, I thought the atmosphere was really flat throughout, really poor. And then it descended into being quite toxic by the final whistle and after the final whistle. So yeah, it was very bad to answer your question. It was pretty terrible. Yeah. I mean, Andy, there's so many different aspects to the game last night, just those 90 minutes, to be honest, which we'll do our best to cover as broadly as we can. But just fundamentally, I suppose, after the way that this season has begun and after the two back-to-back defeats now this week, how worried are you?

5:40I'm worried. This is the low point of the season. Look, Sunday, that decision was a disgrace. I'm not saying you can live by that, but there was some mitigation. The Brighton performance, as Keris said, I was worried watching it even when Manchester United were leading 2-0. Brighton were by some distance, the better team. They were creating chances. And somehow Manchester United survived until just before half-time without conceding. The second half was wretched. Pretty alarmed watching it, Ian, to be honest. I feel that... I don't know where Manchester United go from here. The optimistic side of me is hoping that it's a blip, a bad run.

6:23All teams have them. But I'm also baffled that the team has gone from winning to losing. Not playing well. being outsmarted tactically by opponents. And that was a really, really worrying watch for me last night. That was a much-changed United team, granted, and the biggest players absolutely need to step up now. But it was also a much-changed Brighton and Hove Albion team. I've not felt like this since Brighton in January, so there's some similarity there. I think the domestic cups are really important. and Manchester United have not won a domestic cup game since what March February the season before last 500 days or something ridiculous but it was a performance it was a performance I was really really worried and I tweeted before the game I'm looking forward to watching Shea Lacey and he scored a magnificent goal and others and the performances from the others people who don't normally start was way short of what we're expected and I'm baffled on an individual and on a team basis that someone like Noos Mazraoui who was so impressive in his first season looks anything but now so pretty um pretty alarmed by it actually pretty concerned by it um the only way we get out of this is by wins and Manchester United are in desperate need of wins but we only have one opportunity before an extended international break yeah that's the issue there's not long to be able to try and change this mood going into the break and it would take something pretty spectacular at Craven Cottage on Sunday, to be honest, to change how we're all feeling.

7:59Whose fault is it at the moment, Andy? Who are the ones who aren't doing enough, do you think? Well, it's the players' fault, but everyone's got to take responsibility. The manager manages the team. Managers are judged by results. Michael Carrick absolutely knows that. His coaching staff know that. They get praised when things go well and they get criticised when things don't go well. Everybody, the decision makers, the people who are in charge of the club should all take some of the criticism when things are going badly but then you look at the players and you don't know whether they're failing to follow instruction I was just alarmed by the number of poor performances last night and you're invested in the future of some of the younger talents and younger talents will will make mistakes because that's what younger players do so you're looking at Aidan Heaven and Lenny Yoro and you see moments where they do stuff well and then you just go, whoa, this isn't good enough.

8:55The goalkeeper, you know, we had Sergio Romero as the number two goalkeeper who looked absolutely solid. And then last night, Carl Darlow, I just don't think he did. I don't think the team did. The defence in front of him didn't. There's mitigation throughout. But I was alarmed at how easily Brighton dominated, how Groves, 35 years old, looked anything but washed up. He was the best player on the pitch by a mile. Hal Sesko had almost no service to him in areas where he could do damage. I thought Marcus Rashford looked encouraging, at least in the first half. I thought Shea Lacey scored a wonderful goal.

9:35But you can ask me about any of those players. Juri Tielemans does a lovely little move, but has two shots that are closer to the quadrants than the Stretford end goal. And I want the lad to do well. I want Andre Santos to do well. the new signings to do well. But when they're not doing well, and it's not just a one-off game, you're now judging a season that started with that defeat of Hull. You can accept the odd defeat. You can accept luck going against you, that worldy against Everton, the decision in the derby on Sunday. But I thought that was a horrendous performance last night. And again, as Kerry said, you're watching it thinking, Brighton look constantly dangerous.

10:17Brighton could have scored six goals at Old Trafford last night. And if you can't protect a 2-0 lead at home, that really concerns me. Yeah, I mean, you sort of compared it to Grimsby before. Obviously, Grimsby was historic because it was the first time United had ever lost to a League 2 level side. Obviously, last night was historic because it was the first time they'd lost, having been 2-0 up at Old Trafford in 50 years as well. They just seem so easy to score against at the moment. And that's not just last night, actually. that's the way this season started it feels like every single goal they're conceding that the opposition doesn't need to do much and people are making really bad mistakes as well yeah really really really bad and you hoped and you wanted Lenny Yoro and Aidan Heaven to kind of show themselves as real quality players we've seen it from them in different moments and I guess as Andy says that's the issue with younger players that you're going to get sort of ups and downs but the decision making and some of the application just look way off it i mean that that pascal gross goal was an embarrassment to to have that scored like that i mean dallo you can blame for hooking the ball in the way he did sesco you can blame for not aggressively going to it it's not senior players as well so far apart and then the challenges that they try and do to block it are just you know they're not effective are they um and the first goal you can look at and be like why has Darla not come and got that?

11:39Aidan Heaven letting the ball go over him. Listen, I'm kind of hesitant to go too hard on them because it's, like I say, they're young players. But at the same time, obviously, you're now in this cauldron of Old Trafford and your moves are going to get scrutinised. That second half just looked like, are they even running? Like all the players, you know, you have Serksy come off the bench. Where's the drive? There was a moment when Sesko had the ball on a kind of counter-attack. I think he thought it was offside, but he kind of just stopped running and then Brian won it off him easily. Yeah, he was really convinced he was offside, I think.

12:14He literally looks at the linesman, the player on his right. I can't remember who it was at that stage by that point. Looks at the linesman as well, but it's just play the whistle, like you say. As soon as you realise that flag's not gone up, just get on with it. It was on Saturday. You can hesitate for a moment, just get on with it. It's the lack of urgency again, I think. The collective urgency. Yeah, that comes back through. and I thought that they were correcting it. When you have Shea Lacey's goal and then you see them go and win the ball back on the edge of the Brighton box and score again, you're like, brilliant, okay, they're being ruthless, they're showing this sort of like, this understanding of the need to kill the game.

12:48And then after that, I think Marcus Rashford had a shot from a free kick a couple of minutes after Mount scored. 12 minutes you wrote, yeah. Thank you. Someone remembers what I wrote at one in the morning, not me. And then they didn't have another shot for the rest of the first half. Like it's just, it's completely failing to do what you need to do. Because it feels like they can only do it in bursts. What's that down to then? Is that fitness? Because the fitness has been the question for me this season. Listen, I don't want to go too far on that because clearly I don't know exactly what's going on in the training pitches, but you're just seeing it with your own eyes.

13:20Can they sustain this? Is that the players themselves, the profile of them? Can they really be that kind of aggressive? Because Brighton, the second half, they were at it. it was shocking to see the difference between them just i mean as andy said they could have scored six easily easily could have scored six like that's not even an overestimation and so that is extremely alarming it feels like they can only do this kind of stuff in bursting moments but then i i'd kind of i do think it's a broader picture than that i mean listen you go all the way to the top don't you in terms of the ownership in terms of the glazers in terms of jim ratcliffe in terms of the profile of players at the board this summer when we've kind of been hopeful that it would...

14:02And listen, it's five games into the season, so I'm not drawing conclusions, but there's questions to be asked around the policy for not going for the elite midfielders that you wanted, going for deals that are there to be done, release clause, willing seller in Chelsea with Andre Santos, basically a willing seller in Brighton in the end and you obviously waited a year to do it and he's in the stands. he's not playing. I think that's an interesting note to look at. And so then that's why you can ask the questions of the executives, the recruitment team, Chief Executive Omar Barada, Director of Football Jason Wilcox.

14:41I think this is now the moment when people are going to have to have some serious questions with themselves. The thing is with it, it was obviously explained at the time or it felt like it was explained at the time that the money that was being invested was what could be afforded and that they needed at some point to be able to not reset almost, but just basically admit that this is where they're at and not keep borrowing more and more to be able to try and fix the problems. We spoke about it, like you said, as optimistically as we could with a bit of hope that it could work out doing it this way.

15:15And maybe it still will. Maybe, you know, the midfield and we've not even seen Carlos Baleba yet, obviously. The worry there is like he now becomes this figure that's going to fix it all. You mean he's not? I've got this image in my head of him just going into a phone box somewhere, twirling around and stepping out in his kit. I'll sort this out, lads. His kit round his neck. Or if Carl was here, he'd say, you know, wrestling and Stone Cold Steve Austin glass shatters and out he comes and here we go to save the day. You are right to bring in the wider content and that goes down to the Glazers really, doesn't it?

15:47And the debt that's on the club, the mismanagement of the club prior to this point. We can't just keep buying footballers as well. That's the other thing. and I know that people watching this will go, of course you can, they need new players, they need to get rid of this, they need to do that. But if there is a bigger advert for spending money and not investing it properly over the last, what, 15 years, Manchester United are it, unfortunately. So therefore, maybe we just have to accept that these kind of results, performances are going to happen. I don't know if you can. Well, there we go. And then maybe that then puts the dial on who's responsible for this towards more the coaching.

16:22but then you look at what he did last season, Michael Carrick, when he came in, transformed it, massively overachieved to get them in the Champions League, gets them the revenue from that and then it felt modest what was done in the window, didn't it? So he might be entitled to be like, well, I'm working, you know, Xerxes off the bench again. You've been trying to sell him for like 18 months. Yeah, the biggest failing over the summer really is not the players they signed necessarily and obviously we're still to sort of find out fully about that but it's the lack of sales again we did actually talk about that I can't believe that there wasn't more players actually sold over and there's mitigation in different ways clearly but and that creeps into the mood that ultimately I think it was a good mood in pre-season but then when it sort of turns and the results aren't there the performances aren't there that's when having players that you kind of are thinking would have been moved on by now can have that sort of creep effect almost like Solskjaer had it didn't they when you had a bloated squad and I'm not saying this squad is bloated it certainly isn't but players that you thought were going to be moving on around the place and you know not all this is absolutely where I need to be we're all fighting we're all competing with each other to make this the best possible team best possible squad I think that has an impact I think touching on the debt is a really key issue Manchester United has been weighed down by debt for over 20 years and it affects everything that the club does it affects everything from recruitment to staff wages we've gone over and over and over we've done specialized podcasts about about the glazers but it does not make it any easier to work within those constraints and then you add to that rivals who are better resourced than ever you have premier league clubs who are money pits for private equity companies for sovereign nation wealth funds for oligarchies and are prepared to spend stupid amounts of money we saw it with tottenham Hotspur this summer for example in previous summers there's been different clubs and they don't make it any easier for Manchester United either.

18:25United have always historically been able to pull players in because they're a bigger club because the revenues are bigger because they're the best supported club but the dynamics have been changed now. There were other big pulls the name of Manchester United I don't think it's completely gone playing for Sir Alex Ferguson for example but Manchester United's targets in the summer Elliot Anderson, Matthias Fernandes, Lewis Hall none of them end up coming to Old Trafford so you end up going for the second, third, fourth options because of financial constraints so it's very sobering we said that throughout the summer it's not an ideal scenario how do United get out of this so United have got to use their attributes still laden down by this debt regular Champions League football I mean that looks at all or where we are right now, unless we win it, which we will do in Madrid, and benefit by the economies of scale, by the sheer size of Manchester United, by 74 ,000 average crowd, by big sponsorship deals.

19:26That's how you move up, but it will be a much slower and hopefully a much surer process. And there has been evidence of that. And Michael Carrick did very well last season, but the results of the season have not been anywhere near good enough, and that provokes alarm. It makes people think we're in this sort of doom cycle Groundhog Day as you mentioned earlier on in the podcast again and again does another manager come in does that other manager how long does he last you have a bright start and then it fades away I mean if you look within the club the structure has been changed the youth side has been changed and we'll probably discuss that more within this podcast I do think I'm saying it now from a position of weakness but I don't think the signings last year were bad signings we just need more from them these players need to step up now these players need to be taking the chances it's all right nipping the post um united are not um they're not scoring enough goals they're conceding too many goals and crucially they're not getting the wins and results affect the mood by 70 80 that's that's just how it is we can analyze michael carrick as well he's very calm that is is a virtue especially in an over-emotional club but when you lose a game last night maybe you sometimes need a manager to come forward and to be stronger and to reassure and to say I'm the man to get us out of this so again I'm worried by what I saw last night I'm really really worried by what I saw last night First time I've seen Carrick lose his cool on the touchline last night to be honest towards the end he's willing every single player to give more basically because he was seeing I think what a lot of fans were seeing where it felt like there wasn't enough being done on the field to try and drag United back into the game after going 3-2 down.

21:12What about the relationship between the team and the fans then, Keres, as well? Because the reaction across the board, really, last night was a big reflection of where things are at as well. Yeah, it felt like it soured as badly as I can remember it doing at Old Trafford in recent times. I mean, I wasn't there for the 7-0. but last night I think it first of all I think it's worth pointing out like the atmosphere was was really really flat throughout the whole game like I don't know if that's just it being a different crowd with it being a midweek cup fixture probably but also I think it's a reflection of kind of the discontent among the fans this is this is what happens when you have constant bones of contention over over ticketing over fans feeling like they are not being considered in the right away by the club it makes it that much easier for the mood to turn negative and then it just ratcheted up constantly throughout throughout the second half with every time I think you refer to like the crowd being quite quick to get on players back I think Xerxes was one of those but everyone was like every time there was a pass cut out every time there was a turnover in midfield like the frustration was so audible and that's what Old Trafford can be a powerful thing when it's behind the team when they feel the frustration it can be can be powerful as well and then after full time you know as the players made their way around there's there's some flat fans applauding there's a lot of people booing there was people by the tunnel chanting what the hell was that in more colorful language at the team as they made their way down am i allowed to swear if you want to yeah well i won't go back and do it now but i'll know that i'll know that for the future but you know that that's not something that i think we typically see from what is a very like vocal and very kind of the point of that atmosphere section is like to kind of provide the the impetus to get behind the team and it's it's a sign of how bad the performance was and the strength of feeling at at how united threw it away and the disbelief that you heard that from from that section at the end and Carrick was asked about sort of like the negativity building around the team and and does that have an effect how do you protect the group from that and he sort of said you know we've all been here long enough to it toughens you up and you've got to know how to manage it I don't know how you do manage that like I don't know how you shut that down when they all talk about how important it is and how powerful it is when Old Trafford's behind them on the flip side of that you've got to think that that has an effect as well.

23:48Yeah, you've got to be concerned if the home atmosphere isn't enabling the players to play as best as they can. But that is totally chicken and egg in a way, isn't it? Because if the fans are seeing what they want to see, even if the results are not always perfect, then they're not going to feel like that. Running, commitment, it was the surrender of it that I think antagonised people. But also in the context, as Curtis said, of these issues that are ongoing with the ownership. And that's where then you have responsibility as an owner to try and foster a good atmosphere in the crowd. And we saw Avram Glazer turn up on Sunday for the derby and it just sticks in the cord, doesn't it, to see him after everything that's gone on just show up for a derby.

24:36Obviously that's within his gift because he co-owns the club, But I think that then perhaps is another spark and another catalyst to remind people, you know, we don't like what has happened to our club since they took over. The other thing as well, even when all the subs came on and Zerksy aside, they were all first choice players who came onto the pitch. Didn't seem to make any difference at all. There was no cavalry charge, was there? The belief was not there and the sense of chaos was there. I think I was astounded that the whole of the back four stayed on the pitch when they all played so erratically for them to all stay on the pitch through the game.

25:13I know there was some kind of limited options in the sense that Patrick Dorgoo, Luke Shaw weren't in the squad. Harry Amass didn't get on the pitch in the end, despite him being on the bench. I think that's probably, you know, that would have been a horrible atmosphere to chuck him into. So there weren't as many defensive options on the bench, but the thing was that that back line looked so panicked and looked so chaotic that completely ruins your build-up. And you saw that in how panicked United were when they were trying to play out from the back. Even when you have Kobe Maynou, Bruno Fernandes, all these sort of players on the pitch, the foundations behind them were not stable enough.

25:50and also Brighton were really disciplined and were really good and they were first to balls, they were switched on, they were into challenges quickly, they knew how to stop United building and again they're not the first team to be able to make Man United look out of ideas as to how they create clear-cut chances.

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28:51Right, let's take a break talking about this if we can. I'm sure we'll come back to some of the themes when we preview the Fulham game a little bit later on. But we need to talk about another piece of good news that was swirling on Wednesday. and that was the report that JJ Gabriel, the 15-year-old academy player, has handed in a letter of deregistration to Manchester United and communicated his desire to leave the club. Again, so many different aspects to talk about this, but I think just fundamentally, Laurie, if you can spell out the background of this in terms of he's 15 years old, what happens when he turns 16, how does this process actually work?

29:30Yeah, it's a real complicated one, a complex one. And even now, still with a little bit of uncertainty over the exact regulations, which is something that I think United are trying to figure out specifically. But yeah, a shock announcement, I suppose, when it came out. There'd been maybe some signs, certainly start of last week. There was a sense that it wasn't all rosy. um and but ultimately this is a decisive act to have happen um so yeah the letter of deregistration is basically a request for united to cancel his contract so he's not on scholarship terms yet which is a more binding agreement um and obviously not even professional terms which is absolutely a you know a case for then you know transfer fees and what have you um so it's more you know a kind of request you know and united won't accept it because they've got him under contract until uh next summer so what are those terms then if it's not scholarship terms or professional yeah don't we actually call them really i mean academy terms yeah essentially it's because he's too young to have scholarship yeah so there is a contract yeah yeah but i'm let's believe there's not like money involved shall we say but there's a difference in his case in particular if he has an EU passport which we believe might be the case I think it's still you know to be explored fully because his dad's played for the Republic of Ireland his mother's got Cypriot heritage so there's a chance that he could have an EU passport and that changes the dynamic as to whether he can actually leave the club when he turns 16 on October the 6th and that feels like the direction of travel right now because he's not been at Carrington since last week since he scored that hat-trick against Sabah in the UEFA Youth League and we've done a report on the Athletic today that there is an expectation as it stands that he won't return to Carrington.

31:30There's obviously attempts by United to rectify the situation, high-level talks around this, you know, including Omar Barada. I believe that Sir Jim Ratcliffe is aware of the issue. So you're getting into this and it sounds mad, doesn't it, for a 15-year-old to be talking these terms and for it to be such big news. Huge news. Huge news. So it's Matt Law, the Telegraph, who broke the story. Obviously, we followed it up and added sort of context that we had found out and we can get into a little bit more of the details as we go on. But it shows the, well, clearly the attention on him already, which is perhaps part of the world we're now living with social media and different people reporting on the academy, ourselves included.

32:11I did a report on him last December when he was the youngest player in United's history to play in the FA Youth Cup and score at Old Trafford. Obviously, it went all the way to the final, but it wasn't to be in the final against Man City at the famous Joey Stadium. But it also shows the quality that he has. He's trained with the first team and I've spoken to people that have got a good impression, I think, of his standing around that. And he certainly holds his own in that training physically, clearly can get pushed off the ball. He's playing against people that are 30 kilograms heavier, I guess.

32:47Twice his age and more. So that's why I suppose from a United point of view, there's been a hesitancy, a caution around throwing him into first team environments. But he was due potentially to make his debut against Brighton in the Carabao Cup last night. So that's a sign of how good he is. And there's people that would say they can see him being a world star in future. Now, obviously, it's a long way to go to that. But that is why it's become such big news this week. Andy, what do you think? sad because he's potentially a top class player there is still a long long way to go I spoke to a lot of people about this in the last few days and I watched him in person last week and I spoke to his coach Adam Lawrence after the game and I was stood by the tunnel I was the only person stood by the tunnel and JJ ran past with the match ball for scoring the hat trick at Lee I'm not completely surprised at all I think there's been a high chance of this happening the rules and regulations also give players a lot of power at this stage in their career and manchester united have benefited that from that especially post-brexit bringing in um players like and um garnacho for example um by taking advantage of the rules and manchester united could lose jj gabriel because of this i think united and i've spoke to multiple people feel that they have been very supportive, they've built good relationships with the player, with his family, that they've done everything that they can do.

34:23And yet throughout, I've always thought I wouldn't be surprised if he left Manchester United. When I saw what had happened in the last couple of days, I thought it's really sad if a player's not going to make his debut when he might have a chance. that said bringing him on against Brighton might not have been a good thing for him but and I tweeted this yesterday I've interviewed hundreds and hundreds of players so many of them say their debut is the highlight even lads who've won Champions Leagues Wes Brown says that doesn't he yeah Wes is one of them yeah example yeah and he'll tell you great stories about about his debut to come on and to play at Old Trafford at that age to break a record would have been absolutely significant thing for him to do.

35:09There are two sides to this, but I feel that Manchester United is a good place for a young footballer. There are clear pathways into the first team. I think historically and right up to date, Manchester United have shown that. I was on the pre-season tour when he turned up in Trondheim with his family, didn't get on the pitch that day. I was there in Stockholm when he did get on the pitch for those last few minutes against Atletico Madrid and he looks what he is at times he's a child he's a boy and he needs protection and he's been getting that protection and I'd be sad if he goes and yet I think Manchester United also they can only do what they can do they've got to be firm and there's a lot of interest in him especially from outside of the UK I've got a piece on him coming out in a day or two on The Athletic.

36:06I think we do have to be mindful of his age. I know Michael Carrick was keen to point that out when he was asked about it in his media last night in the press conference and also the post-match interview. Again, just showing the level of interest in a young lad, which the story was everywhere yesterday. Just from what we know, why do you think there has been this letter handed him well as Andy said you know maybe there's always been this sense that he would perhaps go at some point even last uh summer Man City were very interested in him and it took a kind of 11th hour meeting almost from Jason Wilcox and Matt Hargis and Led to Believe to convince him and the family to stay and I think they were happy in that scenario and obviously had a really good season um i i think probably there was a there was a feeling that he was going to get more time on pre-season so andy mentioned the eight minutes atletico madrid um in sort of a central area up against like a 31 year old um uruguayan defender jimenez um so you know was that the the best possible platform for him to show himself and that we can certainly debate whether that should even be an idea but just sort of trying to present the perhaps narrative to this point um and then yeah dub dublin when um united faced lead i think he was he was on new substitute and there was other players that got minutes that you know he might have felt or people might have felt he might have had a chance to to play in that scenario and then yeah the champions league game against sabba he wasn't registered on the a list and he was too young to be on the b list which is the one where basically if you're an academy player you can have unlimited amount of academy players on this list and so he wasn't 16 yeah he wasn't eligible to be selected so from united's point of view i think they would have thought that he could make his debut against brighton and then he'd be eligible for the b list from that point on so there wasn't from the next game yeah yeah from so madrid away yeah so yeah but it all comes tend to the boil i think there's other things that perhaps gone on that you know but at the same time united would say we feel like we've done as much as we can do you know there's a meeting with Ruben Amren that was organised.

38:21Financially, United feel that they wouldn't have been beaten on price, but let's see, because obviously as Andy's touched on there, there is interest in him from basically all of Europe's top clubs. Real Madrid are working on it. We've got a piece that we did the other day with our Spanish colleagues as well, so it's well-sourced to my mind on their interest in him, Real Madrid's, but also Barcelona, PSG, Bayern Munich have been in the mix. And that's why, sorry, I should have clarified earlier, that's why the EU passport has relevance in this scenario when he turns 16. You won't see him going to a Premier League club at that point because it'd be too complicated.

39:00You'd have to get into all kinds of entanglements, but the European option is a different route. I just find it really sad, Keres, that we're talking in this way about such a young lad, such a talented lad, obviously. There's two distinct sides from it, isn't there? there's the sideway there's obviously huge potential in this boy Laurie's talked about the clubs who are interested in him we've seen how effective he's been in the academy playing well well above his age he's made history in the youth cup he made history in the youth league last week as well and then the other side of it is he's so young should we really be having to have these conversations about how many opportunities here and how many minutes there I'm just completely torn about the two things really yeah I think it's It's really hard to balance how you report on someone who is so young, but also someone who has already got an enormous profile, has got a big contract with Nike, has got all this stuff going on, interest from top clubs all over Europe.

40:02It's a story and it's something that the club obviously consider a really important issue as well. But at the heart of this is a kid. like if you think about you know what you were like at 15 and the the toll that this must the toll i was i was doing some pretty high profile pretty intense swimming galas you know the cheshires uh i don't know if you heard about them i had a couple hundred people in the crowd i mean he's studying for his gcse's he's only just begun studying for his gcse's he just sat his mock exams when you when you when you put it like that i think the thing that is at the heart of this and that everyone needs to remember including like us in the media including fans and Michael Carrick was like you know we can talk about what he got wrong last night until the cows come home but I think one thing that he he got right last night you know as reporters we have to ask the question because it's something that people are interested in but when he was asked about JJ Gabriel he was very clear in just saying you know his welfare is the priority and we've got to be so careful about how we talk about him and i think that's the that's got to be at the heart of this really i think that is a fair point unquestionably and obviously it's not finished yet because we have to wait to see what happens united have got till friday is that right yeah i mean i don't know if that's really like i mean in essence this letter of deregistration is kind of a symbolic thing rather than anything because united can just say no united will say no there's no benefit what happens well so then it gets maybe a bit involved with lawyers and so this is the thing where you think scared laugh this is the thing where you think is i don't know the full picture i don't know all the different ins and outs but this is this the best thing for such a young lad at this sort of stage to have all this going on around can you imagine being him and going to real madrid or wherever that the pressure already the expectation already i i don't know if that's the best thing or not really well there's an argument that he would actually suit the spanish league better than the premier league for example given okay from a physical consideration i mean because the special thing about him is the two-footedness it's the tight control the sharp turns and then the shoe in the finishing in tight space so it's the last season the under 18s darren fletcher would kind of use him the most in that area around the box where he could do the most damage and he scored a lot of goals is it like 31 goals in 34 games somewhere crazy numbers for a guy 31 goals six or six six assists in 34 games at youth level that's playing you know four years above his age or three years above his age yeah crazy and so i think you know so look at max max alman's perhaps a good you know comparison in this scenarios he's he's what he's 16 still he's scoring in the carabao cup for us not a ridiculous goal at ipswich slightly different type of player he's more he glides across doesn't he the pit and he kind of almost puts people on their bums by not touching the ball it's just the kind of body movement that he's got it's remarkable he was included in arsenal's champions league squad last season and he had a moment i think um when he sort of in a kind of here's your chance to to show yourself so is united squad full that they're a-list so yes but for example manuel agate is in it and he's gonna be out yeah and that could be readdressed at the end of january so if you're agate yeah he's he's not going to play before january is he right i'd say but i think i think the like i say the club felt that well we'll play in the next one like it's one game but obviously in this moment it then became an issue and i suppose it's the most likely game for him to feature in theory as well.

43:52Was that the opportunity for his to show the club support? And now again, we can debate, well, how much should the club do that or not? It depends how much you value this player and how big a player you think this is going to be in future. So let's see, time will tell, right? Like, I don't know. You can see that he's overperforming for his age right now and he's doing very special things. I think what he said though as well, if he made an appearance at any point this season, it would make him the youngest ever player for Manchester United. So if he'd played in the Sabah game, probably felt they had that time yeah and it transpires maybe they don't andy bigger picture on this is it damaging to united to have this situation going on is it is it it's all reflective of of the opinion of the academy how do you sort of view all of that it's damaging if you lose one of your best players look academies lose their best players and there's more money going into football at that level now than there has ever been there's a lot of power to players and the people around them it's really important that they have good people around them and manchester united have actually been particularly aggressive in going for players from clubs like uh tottenham hotspur for example for from arsenal and jason wilcox had success in manchester city's academy so you'd like to think he knows what he's doing in terms of organizing a good academy i think the academy was good when i went in there i spent two years um two days behind the scenes there two years ago did it two years piece for the athletic i tell you what i was struck by having spent two days access all areas sort of asking difficult questions and that came out of me writing a very critical piece a decade ago saying the academy what it wasn't what it had them was that retaining players is as difficult, if not more difficult, as recruiting players.

45:42It's really hard for clubs to keep hold of players. And in England, because of the geographic proximity of rivals, that makes it even more worse. And I remember someone going from Manchester United to Spain and speaking to his counterpart at Barcelona and saying, how do you deal with the rules and regulations? and they just went, oh, if we see a player, we just get them. I was like, what? And you see Barca and Madrid just basically cherry pick who they want in Spain, domestically. Very different in England. I think the academy has got some good young players in. I think the changes that have taken place in the last couple of years will take a couple of years to bear fruit.

46:28I think the Youth Cup is only one measurement of how successful an academy is. It's only a cup competition after all. I think going forward, Manchester United would like to bring more players through the academy to be sold for profit. It's a model that Manchester City honed over the last 15 years. I think it's concerning when a player of his talent leaves the club. I'm just not sure that Manchester United could have done anything different legally to keep the player at the club there are a lot of sharks in football as well there's a lot of sharks in in youth recruitment as well there's a lot of families who live their lives through the children and the expectation that the children are going to be big earners that they're going to become professional footballers and that can provoke irrational and emotive reactions and you see that at all levels in youth football and that is not a good thing either so in the past manchester united would have had the power to go if your child's not happier take him elsewhere but manchester united are not as powerful as they were and there are realistic alternatives as well and each club does things differently you know chelsea liverpool manchester city will pay big money some of them pay less money once they're inside the building you know it was said to me that Liverpool still feel like they're attractive.

47:59They got a player in the summer who Manchester United pushed for because that player, him or his family, wanted to play for Liverpool. It was said to me earlier on this year, the players we want to sign, we want them to play for Manchester United, not because the dad liked the great Fergie teams, because they want to play for Manchester United. So I agree with the sentiment of that, but it's not always as clear-cut as that. It's a very cut-throat world. Just to add in as well to what Andy was saying there in terms of United making moves, they are showing, I think, more muscle in terms of recruitment.

48:32So there's three signings that should be announced, I would expect, fairly soon in Eze and Kasim from Man City and then Condé from Liverpool. They're 16-year-olds. So basically, 14 and 16 is the two points when academy players typically leave a club. So I think that was the idea if JJ Gabriel was to leave United 16 next summer. but anyway in terms of these three recruits that's what's happened with them and so they're currently going through the process of being ratified by the Premier League but in terms of what Andy was saying there is United trying to show a bit more muscle I think in terms of the local geographical competition for signings in that area of the game.

49:14Any chance he stays? I mean yeah but I would be surprised now. Because of everything we've just talked about I suppose. Yeah. I think there's a growing acceptance in my mind to that. Okay. All right. Well, we'll see how this plays out over the coming days, weeks. And obviously, keep your eyes on The Athletic for the very latest on it.

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51:30we have to talk about the first team again if we can um well i suppose jj gabriel is the first team but you know what i mean um we need to talk about them being in action at the weekend away at fulham we have to kerish yes we do unfortunately it's part of our legally binding contracts yeah so just coming back to some of the stuff that we talked about earlier i suppose how does this change now the simple answer is play well win games and move on from it but it just felt like you know there's so much sort of scar tissue in that performance and and result last night it's going to take quite a bit of working past again I don't think a win against Fulham necessarily solves much in the minds of fans because they're a club like let's not forget they've just changed manager there's been question marks over their manager and they've been you know not not in a great place they had a draw against Liverpool on the weekend which probably their best result first point of the season yeah first point of the season there you go so I don't think a win over them does too much to to calm the mood but then on the flip side of that and this is the harsh reality of football a win wouldn't do much but a loss would would do a hell of a lot to the mood in terms of like how it gets better and how they improve I think the main thing that they need to and this is a cliche but they need to go back to basics in terms of how they actually want to play and how they play when it's not going their way and that's the part that I think they are really struggling with they know how they want to play football and they got really in the swing of that last season under Michael Carrick and the players really kind of bought into what they were trying to do and they had a lot of success with it now other teams know how they want to play and they are adjusting to that and they're finding ways to stop them and Manchester United are not adapting and they are panicking instead so I think it's you know you've got your plan A what is your plan B and are you actually capable of executing plan B like that's that's kind of a big question for me yeah the resilience of the group again I don't know how much we actually talked about that in that first section but that's an alarm as well you're not seeing out a 2-1 lead away at Everton in the final moments not taking advantage of a man advantage in the derby for pretty much an hour not holding on to a two-goal lead at Old Trafford being the first team to lose that and lose the game in in 50 years I think I said it a couple of podcasts ago where I thought they were past feeling like they were spiraling almost but that is back with a vengeance yeah yeah and now it's a resilience of a different kind isn't it it's a resilience of you know game to game and how strong mentally are these guys to then respond and i mean listen fulham in one way are the perfect opponents away from home as well so you kind of get away from old trafford maybe that's a positive thing you know the away crowd usually does get behind them although obviously there's now been different demographics certainly away at fulham and actually i've been away at fulham in their neutral section and um we just took over the whole end really so So I can't necessarily say that anyone that's in there shouldn't be.

54:38It's not the most intimidating of places. There's very few places you can watch a game of football and then go and have a dip in a rooftop pool. I really fancy that as well. With a little cocktail in hand, I'm sure you do. You can't have a pool on a roof, can you? A football ground? That just feels fundamentally wrong to me. Oh, you can. If they want a remedy, actually, Fulham away. Andy has provided it down the years. Come on, Ian, this is good. Come on, right. United haven't lost at Craven Cottage since 2009. They've played 10 there since, won eight, drawn two, scored 21 goals, conceded six.

55:12Although they did draw last season when Bruno Fernandes missed a penalty, which maybe wasn't a classic trip to Craven Cottage. But, yeah. Well, yeah, that 2009 game was on my birthday. What an absolute buzz that was, travelling down to Fulham to see United lose 3-0. I think the games at Fulham were actually quite interesting. Even the one last year was at the start of the season, wasn't it? And you could see evidence of what Ruben Amarin, remember him, was trying to do. The rot needs to start. It's a big result. The big players need to stand up. I thought it was a good away end at Fulham last year.

55:54you get 3 ,000 in a 25 ,000 capacity stadium although the capacity has gone up a bit now it feels significant the year before we had Bruno getting a winner late on I think that game was in November I remember doing telly the morning after that it was like oh Man United back I went no no they just beat Fulham away there's a long long way to go before Manchester United are back I'm just sick of the cycle of a bad news story every day around Manchester United people revel in it as well don't they well a lot of people revel in it people salivating yesterday well they have been the last few days at the derby at jj gabriel at the result last night as well you open your phone you switch the telly on you turn the radio on you speak to your friends it's depressing isn't it it's depressing and it hurts because we've never hid who we support and i want manchester united to do well i don't want manchester united to be the brunt of jokes people laughing at Manchester United.

56:52The timing of the Fulham game is interesting because there is that extended break after. I think fans need to see something. They need to see a win against a team who've started really, really badly. And this Fulham team do not look as good as the Fulham team of last year or the year before. Marco Silva was a very difficult manager and he had some good results against Manchester United. So I'll be there. I'll be worried. but I think that Michael Carrick has not just turned into a bad manager overnight he did really well last season his percentage of wins was extremely impressive to get Manchester United into the Champions League and I always said there was going to be blips this season I didn't expect it to be right at the start if I'm honest and I didn't expect it to perform as bad as the one I saw against Brighton but I would expect a full strength team at Fulham away and you need your biggest players your lads like Bruno to stand up and to get a result there anything less and it'll just see a continuation of the bleakness that we feel right now yeah full strength team is a key point another aspect we didn't talk about in that first section because there's so much to get through there was a bit of a gamble with the the lineup in the first place in that game but there won't be any in this Fulham match no it'll be the best possible team he can pick I mean I you know I think Patrick Dogu was rested am I wrong there you're sort of looking at me I don't know no one got onto Dogu in the post match I'm afraid to say there was there was other stuff to address Patrick Dogu where was he in the squad that was not the number one pro it's in there's another press conference there to Fulham to find out there is actually I thought it was going to be last night so that's good so hopefully you know he and Luke Shaw's availability I think it's been just crucial hasn't it like you think of the crossing the crossing he put in for sesco compared to the crossing that we've seen since i mean it's night and day in it um not that luke shaw's crossing is always perfect exactly yeah you know at least he found a man um and so but but fulham yeah are below us trying to get them to play some kind of way it that feels fragile like that could play into united's hands if they're man to man high press you know if united can get the groove on so it could work and then you just at least push all those all these you know kind of big questions that i've been asking a little bit to okay just push them to the periphery and you know actually it's not as bad as you think and so well that was character thing last night he was saying that he thinks it's just small things that have added up to a big thing so you know a screamer hitting the back of the net at everton a goal that shouldn't have been given in the derby um so certainly those i accept all that but it's just the brighton performance was so bad but yeah okay you've changed a lot of the team but then you brought the cavalry on and it still hasn't really had an impact so well also the the reserve team so to speak is having the same issues as the first team as well i suppose which then again adds up to something it was the first time i know i said this uh the other day on the pub it's the first time that carrick's team under him haven't responded to a defeat with a win so it's two defeats now so that's the that's a new experience you know let's see then the motivation the energy it just has to be a lot better there has to be more intensity to it and can you flick that like a switch I don't know if like I say Kerry was right to say the start of the game was brilliant exciting because they were high intent it feels like they can't do that for a full game and fine maybe not maybe no team can really because even Liverpool at their best under Jurgen Klopp would you know have moments where they just took the foot off the gas and and they went you know in certain stages but yeah it needs to be better at Fulham and hopefully they've they play in a certain way that invites United to do that.

1:00:32Shea Lacey, we did touch on a bit, but the narrative when that boy scored that goal and then... I thought for about 25, 30 minutes that I just got to write, you know, 800 lovely words about Shea Lacey and how he'd lifted the mood and how he's class and how he's the future and everything. He's celebrated by banging his badge on his chest, giving it a kiss. I think he showed, like, the goal was was brilliant it's a really really good finish it's a really smart finish i was um i was sat in the press box and someone next to me was yelling shoot and i went oh my god don't shoot from there and then he scored i was like okay that shows what i know but he was getting pushed over to be fair kevin she was entitled to think that's a very unlikely shot i've been brilliant shot i've been so i was really impressed watching him in pre-season like for a small guy he's got a lot of strength he's really really good in tight spaces i think he showed his sort of like versatility he was on the right wing which is sort of where we saw him last season a little bit under Amarin while Brian and Bermot and Ahmad were at AFCON but he played in the 10 in pre-season as well so I think you know there was there was bits to he came off on what about an hour last night I think but there was there was bits to work on in his performance like his defensive understanding with Dallow of exactly sometimes both of them are going for the same man it's leaving someone free and that's how how Brighton were getting at them there's stuff to develop but I think he is making a really good case to be involved.

1:02:02He's clearly really well liked by his teammates, by the manager. I asked Michael Carrick about something completely different and he sort of said, you know, he gave me a bit of an answer and then he was like, you know, I just think it's a real shame that Shea's moment got lost and spoke about sort of how important it was for him, for his friends, for his family, for the whole academy. While it wasn't quite, you know, the tone of the moment, I do think it's good that he took a second to highlight Lacey and make sure that he got his kind of recognition and said how much of a shame that was that that feels so long ago and that hopefully when the dust settles, he can look back on that moment with the recognition that it deserves.

1:02:46Yeah, he was the first teenager to score on his first start for the club since Marcus Rashford. These are the stats that I was lapping up at 25 minutes in. I was like, this is gold, and then it all fell apart. Yeah, I mean, Sesko's the other one, isn't he? Sesko's another one who had lots of calls for him to play more. He could be a remedy to the issues in the derby, for example. But then you watch him last night and he's just another one who you felt like needed to give more, really. So it'd be interesting to see whether he goes again at Fulham or not. With Bruno behind him, obviously a lot of changes want there behind him.

1:03:17There wasn't much service either, I suppose. But when balls were played up to him, you sort of need more from him holding it up. And those moments where you sort of lacked intensity a bit. I mean, I wrote this down before last night, actually, but it may be, it's only underlined. In a couple of the match reports I read about Liverpool and Fulham at the weekend, the 0-0 draw at Anfield, Liverpool lacked intensity and urgency to break Fulham down was a sentence I read several times. I thought you were going to say you made notes during last night whilst you were, because you were Terry's Ian last night, weren't you?

1:03:50Yeah, I was not making any notes, no. Mental notes. Your voice sounds perfect as well, because obviously there weren't much opportunity. That's why I usually have had a beer and yeah, nevermind. So you weren't heckling too much, but equally you weren't singing too much. I think I was just in silence at the end, actually. It was that bad, I'd edged my way to the exit. Oh, wow. I was in a different seat by the end of the game. You know when you sort of like go to leave? I can't leave. So we're just tucking in here. You go to the end of the row so that you can... Well, I'd actually gone past the end of the row, gone like two or three rows down.

1:04:18It was like... You're on the steps just peeking out. There's maybe 20 seconds left and you're just like, yeah, what's going to happen? And then I think a free kick was given or something like that. yeah sorry i brought you back there you were kind of looking positive weren't you i was trying to but anyway let's finish the podcast um laurie and kerris thank you so much for being with us here in the studio andy thank you for joining us too uh and thank you everyone for sticking with us this long whether you're watching or listening along it won't always be like this i don't think but it is alarming how we're back at this moment again but thank you for your company thanks for all your thoughts emails and so on and we'll see you after fulham take care bye-bye

1:05:17The Athletic FC

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