Ten Hag Exclusive Interview : Recruitment, Ronaldo, Ratcliffe & Glory at Man United

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1:30The Athletic FC

1:47This is Talk the Devils, the Athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today we have something very special for you because Laurie has done an exclusive interview for The Athletic with the former Manchester United manager Eric Ten Hag, his very first since leaving Old Trafford two years ago. There's a lot to get through on today's episode, there's lots of different aspects to talk about, but we're going to be speaking about Ten Hag's pride of his time at United, including his highlight winning the FA Cup final against Manchester City, the broken promises from the hierarchy of his sacking, why he had to act on Cristiano Ronaldo, missing out on some of his top targets, including Frankie de Jong, Harry Kane and Declan Rice.

2:31His pride as well at bringing through Kobe Menuh and Alejandro Garnaccio to the first team. And also he speaks about his backing of the job that Michael Carrick is doing right now in his old seat. Laurie is with us, naturally, of course. Andy's joining us as well. First of all, Laurie, congratulations. A fantastic get, a great chat. Anyone who's seen the first instalment of this on The Athletic already will see just how much you get into. And he's quite a character, Ten Hag, isn't he? I mean, how did all this come about? Paint the picture for us.

3:02Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, well, obviously he was Manchester United manager for a couple of years and then a little bit longer after the FA Cup final U-turn, shall we say, about him keeping his job. And so as a journalist, you should try to get to know people that work at the club, work around the club, have you know kind of information can help your understanding of it obviously Andy did an interview with him for United We Stand when he was United manager so he understands this kind of dynamic as well and I just thought he was perhaps a more compelling figure away from the press conference than you would naturally expect he was very clipped at times in his public pronouncements and I think he also had to sort of lean into that kind of disciplinarian streak that he does have but in those particular circumstances at United.

3:48Laurie Whitwell: So, you know, I've kind of understood him to be a much more personable character away from football anyway. And so I was always kind of hoping that we might at one point be able to do an interview. And it's eventually come to now where, yeah, it got set up where he sort of said, how about you come to the game, FC 20 versus FC 10, I think it is, the Swiss champions in the Europa Conference League, which was the Thursday after United had been in Madrid on the Tuesday. So I had to kind of rejig the travel plans there. I was originally intending to come back to Manchester and had to kind of change that and fly to Amsterdam instead.

4:24Laurie Whitwell: So after I left Andy from the podcast in Madrid, got a flight to Amsterdam instead of Manchester. And yeah, he then, well, so I flew to Amsterdam. I hadn't had much sleep because of, you know, Lissandro Martien is deciding to say what he said after the game, trying to sort of configure all that. and then I had to get a train from Amsterdam to Enshadeh, which is in the east of the Netherlands, which is sort of via Zwolle originally. And then my train got cancelled to Enshadeh. All those train chats getting Andy excited. I know. I can't believe I'm already honing in on the train chat where people are probably going, yeah, enough of that.

4:59Laurie Whitwell: What's he had to say? What's actually said. But I just want to kind of build the picture of the fact that he then, he'd already messaged me saying, I'll pick you up from the train station. We'll go to the hotel that he co-owns for the chats. We've got a kind of private area to chat. And he didn't mind that I was then half an hour late because my train had been cancelled and I had to get a different train by somewhere else anyway. So he pulled up in his Range Rover, warm handshake. And then, yeah, from there, we didn't really stop chatting. Car journey, a few hours at dinner, then the next night as well at the game.

5:26Laurie Whitwell: I found him really engaging company. And you've spoken to him a lot. I did, obviously, when he was manager, more of an official capacity, I suppose. But he's an interesting character, Eric, isn't he? He's certainly a character. I think he's a good man. And like Laurier, I kept in touch with him after he left Manchester United. I felt I was starting to get to know him in his final year at Manchester United and see there's quite a humorous side to him. In my opinion, I don't know whether Laurie agrees. And the public side of him didn't always show what the real person is. I think as an interview, it's fantastic.

6:01And to go and do him in his hometown is a real scoop to get him talking about his time and his time at Manchester United and he's absolutely entitled to his perspective on things I think United fans will agree with some parts disagree with others nice to be reminded about things like that FA Cup final win against Manchester City in 24 and I think history will remember him quite favourably as a Manchester United manager but I also read in the interview it shows how complex it is managing at a club and a club which went under a takeover while he was in charge and everything changes in any business when that happened and that happened for Eric Ten Haag at Manchester United because the people who gave him the job John Murtagh, Richard Arnold they left the club so it was always going to be difficult for Ten Haag from that point onwards and I think he explains that in the interview so I find it interesting and I'm envious that I didn't go to entry day because I've never been and it's a part of the world I've read a lot about

7:07Laurie Whitwell: well Andy yes it's funny you should mention that so we're driving through and Eric kind of starts naturally talking about the area that we're in and yeah you mentioned the second world war being sort of occupied by Germany and the fact that in that actual location there was military bases and then obviously they lost the war and the English and Americans came so I was thinking I actually said to him Andy would love this chat you know and my dad would as well my dad's a big world war to buff so it was a little bit lost on me although i did say i've watched private saving private ryan although is that the first world war no um he is the second world war okay great uh he he enjoys that film as well but yeah he's a very very yeah it's just interesting person and actually even in that sort of car journey he was talking to me about a fireworks explosion that happened in the year 2000 which was huge and devastating for the for the local area um 23 people died i think hundreds were displaced and they were playing that their training ground was not too far from that he was a player at FC 20 um in this period and they had to still play their final match of the season away at Feyenoord uh despite players families being affected by this and it was a really traumatic event uh and after the game they drew they didn't get the result they needed for the the kind of qualification to Europe and he sort of spoke out against the leadership at that point to sort of say we've been forced to do this we shouldn't have had to do this and he the quote what he kind of gave me said was, in today's world, everyone knows you shouldn't play when your city is burning, which I thought was a really evocative way of expressing it.

8:34Laurie Whitwell: And it also spoke to the kind of person he is in terms of not being afraid to say things publicly, even though it might bring you into conflict with people. Definitely. And that we will reflect on shortly. Right. If you've not seen it already, part one of this conversation, this athletic exclusive by Laurie, is available to read now with Eric Ten Hag. Part 2 will be out on Wednesday and we've got a bit of a sneak peek, I guess, in this episode of what you can expect from that part of the conversation as well. I want to start on a positive because I despaired reading the sentence that Ten Hag's two trophies are Manchester United's only pieces of silverware in the past decade.

9:15I'd not quite added it up that way in my head and undoubtedly, beating Newcastle was great in the League Cup final, but undoubtedly beating Manchester City, in the FA Cup final, what Eric describes as the best moment in my Manchester life, which is very Ten Hag phrasing, was a huge highlight. It's probably the best day for Manchester United. Yeah, maybe.

9:39Laurie Whitwell: I mean, PSG, you could maybe make an argument for, but the fact that actually... Europa League final win. Yeah, I know, but I kind of was... The Europa League final was great, great achievement for Mourinho, but you didn't have that same romance to it as I felt with watching the City game. And again, maybe I'm biased because I was there covering it at the time. But yeah, the only two trophies since Jose left, that's confirmed. And then, yeah, if United don't win a trophy this year, it will be the decade, won't it? So 2017, which is kind of mad, really. And obviously, they got to the FA Cup final the year before.

10:12Laurie Whitwell: He thinks they should have won that as well. He kind of had stats to say that they should have won that in terms of the AI data analysis. It's quite an important stat which they say they didn't. Exactly, yes. but nevertheless they did then win the next year in a way that I think was totally unexpected with a tactical plan that really did work that he obviously you know led the team into I think there's different people he credited his analysts and different coaches as well I think there was people that certainly fed into that but obviously it's him that's making the call on it and yeah I mean it obviously changed the dynamic for his job right like he was he would he would have been sacked if they'd not lost that game.

10:51Laurie Whitwell: He nearly was anyway. And then amidst all this kind of speculation, he touched on that, the speculation around his job. He didn't go hunting for answers on that because he's like, what's the point? I've got no influence over it. I can only focus on my team, my club. And yeah, to then conjure this kind of victory with Cobie Menuh scoring, with Alejandro Garnaccio scoring, the academy link being there, I think will stand the test of time as a real special moment. And what is football for? it's for moments it's for these shared experiences where we're as fans kind of together and enjoying it and and certainly against a rival like that at Wembley as well he mentioned to me that he'd been to Wembley six times with United which is is that right six times yeah so twice FA Cup semi-finals and okay you can say the Coventry one was a very lucky one in the semi-final of this competition actually Brighton City City Newcastle and then City in the Community Shield as well so So, yeah, and they haven't obviously been back since.

11:48Laurie Whitwell: So for his point, I think he can understand there was sort of disappointments. The league form clearly tailed off, but he goes into reasons why he thinks that happened, not only with the takeover, but also with some of the personalities in his squad. But I think he's proud of the fact that he then won trophies. He said that's what football is about, really, silverware. Pride is definitely something we've already talked about a few times and definitely came through. in Eric's voice as you'll hear now when talking about his affinity with Manchester United I enjoyed every minute in Manchester United it feels like I'm connected I'm a fan so I have a huge respect for the fans so we have to bring success back for the fans it causes amazing club with amazing fan base they were always respectful to me yeah in like Altrincham when you were walking around wherever I have such wonderful memories how we were connected and I feel very strong.

12:51I feel connected to Manchester United and Old Trafford gave me such amazing memories. I felt always supportive. Of course, there will be a part against the decisions of the manager or against the manager. But I felt always supportive by them. I really want United to win.

13:11Laurie Whitwell: Do you still look for their results? Yeah. Where are your medals? My medals? They're in my office. Okay. They're up? Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you've got your title medals from Ajax, your FA Cup, Carabao Cup in your office, at home? In my home office. No, I don't bring them at 20. yeah Andy brilliant to hear Eric talk like that it's definitely left a mark on him the club but actually the when you think about some of the moments United had with him as well and it obviously went wrong and you know we'll reflect on that but he has left something behind for United fans as well actually yeah I think that win against City in 2024 was arguably the best post-Fergie moment because of what Laurie said it was it was so unexpected it was against them and it was so convincing and i took a picture of him and i just put god loves a lonely soul i tried to appropriate it from a richard ashcroft um an uncle lyric and it just went completely viral and i sent it to eric on the first anniversary and he said i i love that picture it was a proper special moment and when he's giving these stats to lorry he is seeing it from his perspective he did win trophies he did go to Wembley a lot yet that Coventry game was pretty alarming but then the Community Shield which United lost United actually played very well that day but I also remember a time in his first season when we went on the mid-season training camp to southern Spain and he couldn't stop winning at the time I really felt that he was going to be a longer term solution than he ended up being and I think the high point was knocking Barcelona out of the Europa League maybe February 23 and maybe that was the month when Newcastle United were beaten in the League Cup final where we did that that podcast where Carl turned up and that's my biggest memory that day because of the way he was dressed but there were there were some really really good highs and I suppose we look back now through red tinted spectacles and think actually that was really really good when there were also some pretty grim times as well but it's just very interesting to me to hear it from his perspective the way that he picks out the stats which support his arguments and reflect very well against him but there were some absolutely top times under him there were and there were some pretty difficult moments as well not least the unravelling of his time in charge, only a few months after that FA Cup final win against Manchester City.

15:55So this is Eric's take really on how his departure from United came about. Of course, I can read, I can see the moving in a club. I see when people leave Istanbul, all of a sudden something is going on. But still, after that summer where you get apologised We would go in togetherness to build on. Then it's surprising. We are talking about this period in two separate ways. We were four points behind the Champions League position. Then we were three points in the Europa League. We played away Fenerbahce and we played away Porto, not the easy games, which is good. I think it was a good foundation.

16:43We targeted actually the Europa League. When you choose for a manager, then he improved the last two seasons, winning trophies, getting into finals. Then I don't think it's good management.

16:56Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, do you think you would have won that competition? For sure. Yeah. For sure. That I improved my record. Yeah. And there are not so many managers with the record I have. It's not about me. Yeah. Okay. It's about the club. Yeah. I can accept that a new leadership is coming in and that they want to appoint their own people. But as I said, I don't give any energy to this because I'm focusing on my team, on the dynamics in the team and of course get everyone aligned behind the plan. And you went on holiday to Ibiza after the final. What was that meeting like when you finally knew you were staying?

17:40They said they want to speak. They said, OK, then you have to come over to Ibiza. it was very discreet and private and then we thought I wouldn't go on with only one year left so I said okay I need and I stayed and also you have to we go together they promised me loyalty they promised me backing they promised me communication that we get aligned but yeah the promises they didn't make this so that's Eric's take Laurie on how his departure came about doesn't reflect fantastically really on the current hierarchy at United the fact that he feels there was quite considerable broken promises in that period really between the cup final and in them leaving in the October.

18:30Laurie Whitwell: Yeah it's strong feeling and I'm sure there's alternative viewpoints as well but I think it's I think Eric's has absolute validity because you know they it sort of jumps across sort of two different uh periods there doesn't it because you've got the the istanbul period i.e sorry when they were away to fenobachi then they lost at west ham in a game that they should have won the chances they had in that game was the penalty shout as well yeah at the end yeah it shouldn't have been a penalty anyway so but and his point there i think he was saying uh we were four points behind the champions league places that is before the west ham game there was six after but clearly the moves were being made to appoint Ruben Amarin by that point so they'd already made their decision really um and so then we'd flip it back to the FA Cup file and obviously there's lots of you know it was clear wasn't it these talks kind of came out into the public domain Thomas Too called Roberto Deserbi I think others were spoken to as well so um but then after that to then have the meeting in Ibiza during a holiday he goes to Ibiza every year it was there this summer so he sort of said you know this is where I am let's talk because he hadn't heard anything so he's kind of saying I'm not going to pursue that but equally can I have some dialogue to let me know what's going on because I think everyone's expectation a takeover happens new people come in you know they're going to want their own people in that is kind of standard but then there has to be that clean kind of communication and I think because United had this kind of changing personnel in the executive where you had Jason Wilcox in as technical director from the April, so even that small time period really.

20:06Laurie Whitwell: You had Sir Dave Brailsford in from the kind of December time, but obviously getting to grips with the club. Dan Ashworth was on gardening leave, Emma Barada was on gardening leave, so you hadn't got the full complement. It wasn't like there was a sort of structure there. So there's maybe some sympathy in that regard, but I still think clearly when you get to the Ibiza meeting and they're saying to him, we're going to continue with you. We've triggered the extension in your contract. We're going to go together in terms of signings, recruitment, to then shift it so quickly to the October. And yeah, there were some bad results.

20:44Laurie Whitwell: There was Liverpool, I think, 3-0. There was Tottenham 3-0. So maybe that was then, okay, this isn't going to work ever. But I did ask him, I said about the players, did you feel any sense of the players that weren't with you? And he said, well, no. like yeah we there was there was obviously moments that that sparked you know there was definite issues there and we can get into some of those but he felt that at all times they were trying to execute the game plan that he'd implemented so um he didn't think that was a a a real kind of issue um but yeah so so from going saying we're going to sort of be with you to then changing managers within two months of the season that was i think what really hurt and yeah we can kind of get into some of the details maybe around the signings because you know he did definitely have a couple of signings in Delict and Masraoui but then others were probably club and one of the the big points that he then came back to was Scott McTominay he did not want Scott McTominay to be sold he communicated that in this meeting in Ibiza and then ultimately he was sold and Manuel Agate was brought in so yeah I think in terms of a kind of narrative stepping aside you can see that it was always perhaps going to go that way because it's new ownership and etc but when you're in it and you feel like you've had that you know communication then you can see why he's saying there were broken promises yeah no matter your perspective on this particular uh moment in time andy there's a messy period that for the club wasn't it on reflection yeah so he picks out like the the porto and the fenobachi game but there's more context to that united drew their first three europa league games that season they were 21st in the europa league table after three matches 20 at old trafford was a really disappointing result and the mood dropped badly that night and then there was that game in Porto so on paper three all the way in Porto that's a great you know not a bad result at all but United were 2-0 up and needed a 91st minute equaliser from Harry Maguire and then there's the Fenerbahce game which he talks about but after Eric Tenard left United won every single game then so there is some context to it I do think he absolutely has his perspective on things the trip to a beef it was a messy period because so much was changing at Manchester United.

22:54And I remember seeing him at the first game of the following pre-season away in Trondheim. And I said, you were in Ibiza? He went, yeah. I said, was it you were in amnesia or in Pasha? And he said, no, no, I did not go to a discotheque. Did you not see the newspapers? It was about my contract. And of course I'd seen it. Everyone had seen it. He's quite a serious man. There's a good humour to him. I feel that when he's talking about the plays he nearly had the players that he wanted. I mean, he wanted to keep Sofran Amrabat, for example. I think I said that on the podcast at the time. How would hindsight judge that?

23:32Well, what's Amrabat done since? You know, he was all right, wasn't he? But I don't think it was a clamour from Manchester United fans. But he was the manager. It was his decision. When he talks about the other players who he wanted, okay, you think, great. I thought he was in a really strong position to bring Frankie de Jong, but there's often more than one version of the truth in football as well. We know, for example, the plays he really wanted in his first summer and he didn't get them. But it also shows how complicated it is at Manchester United and still is because I think there's a perception that Manchester United can get any players that they want.

24:11Louis van Gaal, his compatriot, certainly said that. The reality is that there are stronger clubs financially now in the transfer market.

25:10Laurie Whitwell: We'll be right back. Get more for your money feeling. Only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate$40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days. You're listening to a quick ad. You know what else is quick? Selling your car on Carvana. Just put in your vehicle information and we'll give you an offer. Done. No hassle. No negotiation. No guy from an online listing lowballing you. Which means by the time I'm done explaining this, you could have basically done it.

25:47Laurie Whitwell: still haven't started hey better late than never sell your car today on carvana pickup fees may apply

26:05we'll do recruitment in a moment because there's some some really interesting stuff from eric on that as well just before we do that in terms of his criticism of the hierarchy there's a point in your piece that really stood out to me where we're talking about this changing picture we're talking about some of the messiness maybe in sorting out how exactly the hierarchy worked out and there's a point that Eric makes to Sir Jim Ratcliffe about whether he's the manager or the head coach and the expectation of Ratcliffe and actually the reality of his contract yeah so this is when

26:39Laurie Whitwell: he met them so so Ratcliffe and Brailsford came to Carrington and and in the end that was actually his only meeting with Ratcliffe um in his tenure which maybe I guess you know speaks volumes um but yeah then he started hearing about you know the structure being changed from you know manager to head coach he was like well my contract is manager so you know in these I think it gives us such a window into football and the industry and you know what the real issues are for certain people in certain moments he only had one meeting with Ratcliffe that that's yeah yeah that's so from the takeover happening or the investment happening in the December would it be through to October yeah because they came in January wasn't it yeah eventually yeah yeah it was announced wasn't it I think 23rd of December or something like that and it was interesting I hadn't really fully appreciate this but he said I did actually speak to Jim um when I was he must be an Ajax manager still um when they were looking for a replacement for the for the niece manager job so he thought he had a good conversation he said he met bob his brother uh during that process and um yeah had a conversation with jim so he thought that he'd kind of gone quite well obviously didn't get the niche job or he didn't want it i don't know exactly how that broke down in the end but um so he sort of thought maybe i've got you know some insight here but i mean yeah clearly ratcliffe will have had his own views on who he wanted and he was very much on board with ruben amarin being hired and you know the charisma that he might show in a meeting with him whereas I think Eric is much more functional.

28:06Laurie Whitwell: I've got a job to do. This is how we do it. These are the plans. These are the steps. He's absolutely incredible on detail, has documents. He was showing me different documents from his time now. He's technical director of FC20 and the kind of processes that they have in place for their recruitment and the kind of balance of the squad that they want and always evolving it. He says he looks at it every day. It's not something that you put in a drawer and forget about. you need it there visually to kind of really invoke the stimulus for people but yeah so in terms of the point that you raised about the head coach and manager ultimately he never got clarification on that so his contract in the end was the same contract that he'd signed originally under the previous regime and they triggered the the plus one I believe that's the case anyway so you know until the end I guess he was the manager although obviously the whole structure had changed and now we're in this world of of head coach and so I think that's why it's interesting you know For whatever you might think of his reign, certainly there'll be fans that think he wasn't good, we're being too kind to him here.

29:02Laurie Whitwell: But I think he's still got an incredible window into the current landscape at United with the people that are involved still and how that then reflects with Michael Carrick and obviously all the kind of issues that we've spoken about recently after Atletico Madrid. And he's backing Carrick, isn't he? He's certainly saying that the job he's doing at the moment, he can get behind and the churn of managers. It's coming up to that time of year where Eric lost his job when Ruben Armourin lost his job. You know, Michael Carrick's in question at the moment. I certainly think it does make you wonder a third managerial change, head coach change midway through the season would be a very bad look for the current leadership.

29:41Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, he does, he backs him. I mean, maybe, you know, you'd think that's what all managers would do in this situation. But I do think there's a genuine point that he's making in that it's harder than just one person. You can change it, but the whole structure, the whole kind of way that people work with each other different department is something that still needs to be addressed in his mind um and yeah he said he had a good he thinks he's got a good staff obviously he brought johnny evans back to the club for example um and steve holland i think he mentioned um and he thinks that he did a good job at middlesbrough for example as well so again maybe coaches have different perspectives than we would do looking from the outside because they know the kind of internal dynamics that are at play um but yeah i think he was certainly i think ultimately he's saying you need to have stability you need to have a consistent voice and if you just keep changing it all the time you'll never get that and then the players will perhaps have certain feelings around that in those moments when you're being told to do things that you need to do for the better of the team if you've got somebody that is uncertain or we think that they'll just leave you know when it gets tough then that can't be the recipe for success and he also talks Andy about needing a plan as a club no matter the manager no matter the head coach no matter even and some of the members of the hierarchy, you need to have an identity to work towards.

30:54He's very clear on that, and clearly that is a big element of the job that he's got now at FC20, to do that too. I think the idea of him looking over that on an almost daily basis, a reminder of what this should all be about, that is still maybe an element that's lacking at Manchester United right now, that very, very clear idea of what they want to do and how they want to play, because Ten Hag through Amory and through Carrick, there's not many parallels there in terms of style i think they had a plan so eric ten hog was still ix manager and he would meet john murta in a hotel near shiphall airport in amsterdam and met him four five six times and they talked about identity how you want manchester united to play what this team's going to look like this is the type of money we will have to to be buying players so i think he he absolutely went into it with the best intentions because he was doing a good job he had a great job don't forget at Ajax he'd taken them to the semi-finals of the Champions League so there was him Richard Arnold and John Murtagh and then he came in and he started well there's a few bumps but by halfway through that first season he was doing well he was getting really good results out of players like like Marcus Rashford and I can remember one of the more cynical journalist saying to me he's got something really special going here and I didn't disagree with him so he was doing well but you're you are always going to be judged on your results and by the end Manchester United start to the season there was very little identity when you looked at that team there's very little structure when you looked at that team I think it was a very similar start maybe one point better than where we are now I like the fact that he's supportive of Michael Carrick because he's been there he knows the depth of it he knows that just changing one person is not going to be a miracle solution because he saw what a huge club it is and how many different voices are going in there I think my greatest sympathy for him was that he was there when the club was taken over because football as in most businesses when new people come in they always bring their own people in right rightly or wrongly and Eric Ten Hag had not really done anything wrong there and that FA Cup win in 2024 that brought him a stay but was it a stay of execution he sort of said in the interview that he started feeling that the writing was on the wall for him so he was unfortunate there and he also had to deal with some really really tricky situations you know this was Cristiano Ronaldo was a huge voice I think he dealt with that well there was the Mason Greenwood stuff as well which was very difficult so it wasn't easy for him when he was at Manchester United but I feel that as a human he kept his dignity even through through difficult moments and and he kept his head up and he's quite right to accentuate the positives and go this is what I won this is how many times I took you to Wembley yeah he undoubtedly had some difficult situations to deal with not least the demise of Cristiano Ronaldo on his return to Manchester United.

34:02I mean, an unenviable task. George Jesus is still wrestling with it right now with Portugal. And it's a few years on from that. So what insight did he give you on the situation with Ronaldo and how he managed that, I suppose, and managed him?

34:18Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, I thought it was really fascinating actually on Ronaldo. And maybe you can sort of say, listen, it was four years ago or whatever. And we've kind of had this kind of indication from at the time what was happening. And also, I spoke to Steve McLaren, for example earlier this year and he kind of gave me a bit of a window into that and the butting heads that Ten Hag and Ronaldo had. You say that but his temperament and his personality is still a very live issue in world football right now. Some of the criticisms he made of Manchester United in that interview all those years ago still feel as relevant today as they did then as well so okay it is four years ago but like you said before it gives you a big window into the situation at the club right now still.

34:56Laurie Whitwell: And it sort of shows you the sort of dynamics that are at play between a manager and a player. So his point basically was that Ronaldo didn't want to train in the way that he wanted him to train. And he was effectively saying, you know, you're older now, you kind of need to still put the hard work in to get to that level. I accept that he was sort of, from his perspective, Ronaldo was encouraging people to say, save your legs in training, you know, the match is where it matters. and to his point, no, you need to get the fitness in now in the training and then you can maybe rest your legs later if you need to.

35:29You can see how that argument played out, can't you? Because Ronaldo is meticulous. There's one thing you probably can't criticise him for and that's his preparation.

35:37Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, if you've got a guy in Ten Hag that wants to have this dynamic attack in football that he's been asked to give by the hierarchy, that's at odds really with having a player that, you know, clearly doesn't want to do the pressing or the running, etc. So pretty sharp stuff from Ten Hag on the Ronaldo episode. But he felt that that then had an impact on the rest of the squad. If you've got a player like Ronaldo of his stature, talking these terms, and I think he sort of even said later the Madrid connection. So you also have Casemiro, you have Rafael Varane, top players that have won, I think, 14 Champions Leagues between them.

36:12Laurie Whitwell: But for what United wanted at that moment and for what Ten Hag was trying to do, it was at odds with trying to get a togetherness with the team and the squad. And so he then was always kind of having to adapt his style for the players that he had. And I think that's still probably the case to this day, isn't it? It is. And the culture of the club, like you say, is still very much a live issue. So this is Eric Ten Hag talking about how he managed the culture and togetherness of his group at United. And of course, on the pitch, you need accountable players. they have to bring performances out of togetherness.

36:48That is a huge problem at United. The togetherness, because you think it... No, the players. So everyone has his job. The leadership, of course, is to bring finance that you can construct a good squad. But then the players, they have to act, isn't it? Isn't it?

37:04Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, they have a big responsibility. So you think that at United, some of the players don't match what they should be doing? Definitely. Right, okay. Because of behaviors off the pitch, because of... You can mention what they don't do. So football is, for some, not the highest priority. Yeah, okay. And United wasn't the highest priority. They should act. They should deliver performances. To build that culture and to send the players, the team in the right direction. You were often alone. And I had my backing from staff always. but you need the support from the leaders and I caught this from Richard and John once Ineos came, they brought the noise the uncertainty they let us swim, they isolated me so not backing me they are continuing the toxic culture and they fuelise it.

38:11Because they give the power to the team, to the players. Again Andy, very strong from Ten Hag on the hierarchy at Manchester United and the moment that he found himself in as well. He speaks a lot of sense and I think he's right to question people without the expertise he has in professional football telling him or inferring or making decisions which imply that they know more what they are doing than he does. if I was Eric Ten Hag, my nose would be put out of joint as well. I think it was just a really difficult time. And I don't think, even though he'd won trophies and was about to win another one, towards the end of that 23-24 season, results were not always good.

38:57I think United finished 8th that year. That's not good enough for Manchester United. There was a terrible December. He was ahead of his time there because Ruben Amarin copied him with a terrible December. But December 23, Manchester United lost five league games under Eric Ten Hag. And that Palace win, that 4-0, I know that there was a lot of discussions around Eric Ten Hag's position after that. And it's to the credit that United did rally and did finish the league with a couple of wins and did win the FA Cup. But I'm sure he feels pretty strongly about people making decisions that went against him.

39:32Because up until that point, Eric Ten Hag's career had just been in the ascendancy. every managerial job he'd done well and suddenly finds himself in a really difficult position and I think he's absolutely entitled to hold those views. Toxic culture, that's a really really strong phrase.

39:51Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, I mean I think he's Dutch right, he's pretty straightforward speaking. Yeah, but his point is right, so you had certain issues where players were pushing back against his desires and what have you. Then there was also sort of off the pitch stuff as well that happened. And he felt, I think, that he would have quite liked to... Obviously, he comes at it from a certain perspective. It's a strong perspective. Well, I'm sure there's some elements of them pushing back that they had a point as well, the players in those moments, potentially. Undoubtedly, I think. But at the same time, he's got high standards, I would say, in terms of professionalism, in terms of timekeeping, in terms of work ethic, certainly, in terms of the hours that he put in.

40:36Laurie Whitwell: And so I think he felt at moments that he had to be the bad cop all the time when maybe if the leadership could be the bad cop and really enforce the kind of rules around different issues that then he could have been a bit more good cop. Like I said, I've seen that side. I've seen the good cop, so I can vouch for that. You shared a state with a good cop, didn't you, weren't you? It was very juicy. But I do think that then, And I think that he could have shown more of that at United, but it's difficult when you're in this kind of, you're in the firestorm, aren't you? Well, he's very black and white.

41:12Even the way he's talking about it now, and it felt like that at the time, listening to the way that he spoke, hearing some of the anecdotes about the way he operated. His way of doing it was very, this is the way, and if you don't do it, that's a problem. And it didn't always feel like he had the ability to manage the nuance between those two things and to get certain personalities on board in the right moments, in the right way, which wasn't just following the strict rules that he sat.

41:37Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, to a degree, definitely. I think he did, in certain ways, try and allow for some latitude. He sort of touched on that with me a little bit, sort of say there were moments where I did allow that in the right way, I suppose. In his way. In his way. And then you might even point to, we're having this debate eternally, aren't we, with United. do you need somebody at the top of it who's picking the team who is strong because you've got this you know a complex group the egos are there they're their own little businesses now aren't they footballers so you've always got they've got agents and what have you elsewhere they've all got different opinions and kind of keeping control of that is difficult so if you're weak in inverted commas you might get eaten up i actually asked him at one point you know do you need an ego to manage united and he disagreed he said no not an ego i didn't have an ego So I had confidence and that's the distinction in his mind.

42:30Laurie Whitwell: I'm not about me, I'm about the team. I think he correlates ego with I. He carried the same actually, even the way he spoke last week about some of the pressure he was under. And he obviously manages it a totally different way in terms of, I don't think he's weak at all, but he's trying to keep players on side in this moment, whereas maybe Ten Hag's view was, as you say, black or white, you're with us or you're not helping us. So, you know, make your mind up kind of thing. For example, he would point, even though there clearly were issues with Casemiro as we went along, he would point to Casemiro having, I think he gave an interview with a Spanish newspaper AS where he said his first season was the best of his career when he was at United, which was obviously under Ten Hag.

43:13Laurie Whitwell: Rashford, obviously, as well, 30 goals in that season under Ten Hag. So managers don't have to be players' best friends, certainly not. I mean, think of all the players that Fergie fell out with, for example. but you have to have a certain substance to you that then maybe energises something in a player and maybe if they don't agree with you you know if they listen to you or there's kind of something comes from it creatively and positively then that's fine you don't have to get on with each other all the time yeah the youth side of things Andy as well again we'll go back to that word pride with Ten Hag bringing through Alejandro Garnaccio bringing through Kobi Menu I reflected on something the other day actually that me and you shared which was a moment when Tanag was leaving the ground after the game where Hoyland, Garnaccio and Manu had all sat on the hoarding together, that sort of infamous picture now that we thought at that moment was Manchester United's future sat right there, we thought that was the image.

44:09Tanag was very proud of that image, we told him that night that that would be his Manchester United image, didn't quite work out that way in some ways but leaving Mainu certainly Garnaccio if things had worked out differently as well giving them the first opportunity to shape the future of Manchester United they'll always have the FA Cup final but again a success of Ten Hag's those two players. They were I would have liked to have heard more stories about him going over to the academy building in person because I don't think he did that a lot I think he sent Mitchell across and said we need x number of players to train today but it's also true that he listened to some senior players people like Casimiro when it came to Kobi Menuh for example he did give them their their chance he was instrumental in Alejandro Garnaccio having a successful career and given what's happened to Garnaccio since then that didn't look like an easy task if you were his his manager and there were moments even when hoyland signed i know he wanted um harry kane but hoyland did look like the next big thing and i spoke to people in italy when he signed they're like you've signed a great player it's going to be brilliant and these were sports directors who knew what they were on about we would have all liked it to have worked out differently for for rasmus hoyland and as laurie said he had a very complex dressing room to manage and that all these players they are businesses and they do have agents and they always brief against if things are not going well for their little mini business their footballer and eric ten arg walked into that and it's not it wasn't easy for him and it never became easy for him but i do think he was an honest person who did the job to the best of his ability with the best intentions and i think he applied that to the way he lived in manchester i loved hearing stories about him cycling around altering him and boden and then when you say is it true that he cycled to a reserve game the other night he got yeah why not what's the problem it's it's the quickest way of doing it and i think he's a good person but under under very trying circumstances i think he did a job with merit but there were times when it was it was it was very difficult as well and it wasn't always pretty no and it wasn't always enjoyable was it to watch either to be honest um although he has left behind like we've talked about some some brilliant moments

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48:09Laurie Whitwell: What's his deal? He went to Metro and got$450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free and no activation fees. Free phone? Oh, sign me up. Get that more for your money feeling only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate$40 period plan. 450 based on device discount wave activation fee not available if with Metro T-Mobile in the past 180 days

48:38Another huge aspect of your conversation with him is all around recruitment before we get into that I think we should hear from Ten Hag on some of his regret at missing out on some of the top targets that he had for Manchester United I think we were on one page they tried right okay as you said I don't know how I was not the manager doing the negotiations I'm involved in financial issues as well yeah I was never yeah

49:05Laurie Whitwell: but you would would you ever sort of try it's obviously Frankie you knew him from Ajax like would you try and just sense if he's up for it or for example of course I did I did my best of course yeah to but the point is when you don't get and that is at United I think at United you need so outstanding players actually we went to situation after two seasons and we went up to potentials, high potentials but I think all the three years, so it's about you progressing, Canaccio Maino, Joram Hoyland of course Anthony, that are all players who has to progress, who has to develop, but in United The expectations are you have to win every game.

49:54You have to win the league. But young players, they will never be consistent. That takes a process.

49:59Laurie Whitwell: What profiles do you mean? So like players that have done it in the Premier League, you can tell the quality. You can tell the elite talent there. Is that what you mean? Probably you need... Mentality? Personality, exactly. You have the personality. They are mature. Right, yeah. And they are accountable. I mentioned you, five, six players, young, high potentials they are not there they need guidance and they need guidance from guys so good professionals like Kane and Arise Bruno to get there Always a sense of what might have been with some of this stuff I mean you go back to Solskjaer's time and some of the links he had with players then Ralph Rangnick sat and listed people and all this sort of stuff and there's always the good ones that get remembered there's never the bad targets that get spoken about after the event but it does again give you a bit of an insight and this is the previous regime mostly isn't it this is this is sort of richard arnold and john murt's manchester united where i mean frankie de jong we even had a theme tune on the podcast it was such a long-running saga that summer every time we talked about it um i got my mind set on uk playing through the speakers again um can still hear it now and that's an 80s song right yeah this is a good he likes his 80s music yeah that was the the the playlist as we drove what was playing in the car it was a great uh well i listened back and belinda carlyle was one of them heaven is a place on earth which i thought was quite an apt you know moment for for us in that in that in that time but yeah there was there was a various i was loving it you know i like a bit of 80s you know i told him this was the the kind of uh some of the clubs that i went to when i was at university on a special 80s night so yeah it was listen again just sort of shows It was perhaps a slightly different side to him, but I don't think he knew about the Frankie de Jong theme tune.

51:50No, I don't think he did. But he certainly tried, it seemed like, to get him over the line as best he could.

51:57Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, again, I think this is the first time he's speaking about this in detail, so I think that's why it's interesting. Yeah, he certainly tried. The key point, I think, was that he identified the positions with the hierarchy that he wanted straight away, which was a ball-playing centre-half, a midfielder, a strategist, he called him. So that's why I think Franky De Jong was so pivotal in his mind for that. Now, again, we've kind of gone through all that transfer talk previously, but I think it is interesting that he was trying to facilitate that move personally, but then moved on to Declan Rice.

52:32Laurie Whitwell: Even in that first summer, I didn't realise that. I thought it was perhaps the next summer that he kind of was really into him, but he said that West Ham didn't want to sell him that summer and then get to Casemiro. So that's how it all evolved throughout that summer. and then yeah next year he was like you know the striker that i wanted harry kane you know and maybe it's easy for anyone to say you want the guy that scores yeah but even but even declan rice though at the time maybe not quite what he is now there were some people that were like at united i think that didn't necessarily think he was the quality for united well the interest predates eric ten hagen yeah it does to be fair it was oligone and solskjaer as United who were first interested.

53:11Laurie Whitwell: Yeah, and there were some people that thought that Rice would join. United fan boyhood was the shout. Is that right? Apparently, yeah. Apparently, allegedly. I've thrown that one out there. Andy's nodded along. Hopefully, I've not misspoken there. I think when it comes back to then the following summer, he needed goals. He said goals was the big thing that I had an issue with my whole time. You know, take over from Ralph Ranjit where there wasn't many goals in the team. I know Ronaldo had the thing that he had. But then again, if it's not for the for the team, is that the kind of goals that you want?

53:43Laurie Whitwell: So that's why Harry Kane would have been a great signing. But it was more than that, to be honest. What he's talking about there in the clip is about having accountability and that kind of setting of standards. So you're looking at it now, you've got Rice, who has worn the captain's armband for Arsenal. Harry Kane is the England captain. They're both nominated for the Ballon d 'Or this year, aren't they? So I think more than just saying, these are good players, I want them. There was a thought process to it in that they could be his lieutenant, so to speak, alongside Bruno Fernandes, who he touched on, who he made captain, obviously.

54:14Laurie Whitwell: And yeah, could United have done more? He sensed that Harry Kane was interesting. I thought that was interesting. But clearly, the financials were beyond what United were willing to pay, I think, on both players. and we still get it now sorry i was just thinking about belinda carlisle there and harry kane you know what he's done in in munich has shown that he's one of the best strikers in the world and eric tenard i can remember the day that hoyland was signed i think we were in america uh pre-season i think it was in the room with lorry and and yeah great this is Hoyland, this is good, but Harry Kane was Harry Kane.

54:52And Declan Rice, it was actually his father. His father's hero was Brian Robson. So when you're talking about players being amenable to sign for Manchester United, I still hear that now. You know, when I said that Elliot Anderson was amenable to signing a year ago or Antoine Semenyo, I'm not just making that up. But then players or their agents are probably speaking to several clubs and fluttering their eyelashes at several different clubs the signings who did come in under eric ten haag there's a mixed bag there the most expensive one anthony santos was a complete flop and we didn't want it to work out like that and he had shown that he was a good player at ajax but it was on on eric's watch unfortunately yeah to be honest when you look at some of the the top signings that they made during the time it doesn't read brilliantly on reflection.

55:44Anthony you've mentioned, Hoyland you've mentioned, Casemiro I think eventually probably you could consider a success although it was a lot of money for him at the time although very necessary the way that Manchester United started that season but then there's Mason Mount, Lenny Yoro, Lissandro Martinez, Andrew Nana, Manuel Ugarte, Matthias De Ligt, Joshua Zerksy, Tyrell Malassia. There's some good in there but also some signings that have not really lived up to the billing that they got when they first signed for Manchester United. We could be here all day talking about this conversation. There's so many different aspects of it.

56:19I'd recommend you go and have a look at these two pieces on The Athletic. It's a fantastic read. It's a fascinating insight into Eric Ten Hag's take on his time at Manchester United. Congratulations again, Laurie, for getting the interview and for sharing the stake and listening to Belinda Carlisle and all the other moments that you shared with Eric. Just before we finish, anything that we've missed in this conversation that you think people should really look out for in the interview?

56:46Laurie Whitwell: Let me think now. Let me just scroll through. I've made some bullet points, you see, because the thing was, it went on for such a long time. I had a great chat with him. I was basically like, I'm obviously just going to try and extend this as long as I can because this is such a unique opportunity. The state was so good. The state was so good. It really was actually. So the hotel, he co-owns it with his brothers, his two brothers and a couple who are now a husband and wife. He told me that they got married by surprise a couple of weeks prior. I think they're in the 60s. Hopefully they don't mind me.

57:18Laurie Whitwell: So 50s, 60s. So it's just kind of an unusual sort of story again about, and they were really good with their hospitality. But in terms of, I mean, maybe just, you know, we talk about recruitment. You mentioned Brian Brobby as well. Danny Welbeck crops up. and so yeah because it was so long it was supposed to be one piece I wrote 6 ,000 words and they were like you know we need to make this more accessible for people that's quite a long coffee to drink a long reading yeah reading that piece I'll tell you what just one final thought was that you know he tried to get Alejandro Garnaccio to Leverkusen for example that was interesting I didn't know that entirely and he kind of sort of said he could run all day for me you know he was a kind of player he's sort of describing a kind of player that you want from a United Academy graduate but clearly you know his career has gone a different way so far so it was interesting seeing him with that in mind at FC20's ground and he's kind of you know speaking to all the different colleagues there that he's got and and overseeing this Europa League conference win that they had and and just he looked in his element to be honest you know he's back home where he was a player he was assistant manager in good times and so it felt nice to see him in that kind environment and also the fact that he's a UEFA analyst now.

58:33Laurie Whitwell: So he still absolutely loves football. So I think he's got the PSG v Barcelona game, but he can't go to it in person because he's going to Gibraltar to watch FC20 play in their game on the Thursday. So it's still all action. He was sort of saying to me that, yeah, it's not United, it's not the kind of global pull, but there's still pressure here because it's a hard crowd to please. It's a big club for the area, a big club in the Netherlands. and so yeah I'm kind of intrigued to see where they go with it. Yeah absolutely and I'm intrigued to read these two articles as well to get all the detail from this conversation with Erickson Haagany, athletic exclusive by Laurie Whitwell, go and check that out but Laurie for the moment thank you, Andy thank you as well for joining us and yeah go and have a look at those articles that Laurie have written, thank you for your company, take care, bye bye.

59:44Laurie Whitwell: The Athletic FC.

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1:00:30What's your deal?

1:00:31Laurie Whitwell: What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free and no activation fees. Free phone? Oh, sign me up. Get that more for your money feeling only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate$40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days. With the Discover Cash Back Card, It's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5 % cash back at different categories each quarter on up to$1 ,500 in purchases. That's 5 % cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants.

1:01:11It pays to Discover. Terms apply. See discover.com slash 5 for details.