Were Man United right not to buy on deadline day?

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2:02This is Talk the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. coming up today, the transfer window has closed. There was no deadline day business in a senior sense for Manchester United. We'll ask the question why and have a look at the window as a whole. A lot of supporters have got a few grumbles about what went on, so we'll discuss all of that. Joshua Zirks, he obviously probably came the closest to leaving from the senior squad on deadline day. It was Everton who were interested and they are the opponents this weekend in the Premier League. Basically, not very happy. If United fans aren't happy, I don't know how we classify Everton supporters, but we'll talk about that as well.

2:37And we'll also preview the start of the WSL campaign for the women's team. Keris Jones will be joining us a little bit later on to do that and to talk Everton as well. Andy and Laurie are here for the moment though. How are we doing? You okay? Good. Yeah, good. I had a little bit of a sleep last night after a long day on Tuesday, early hours, etc. But we'll get into that. Well, you were writing your piece, I suppose, overnight the day before. It was a very detailed look at Manchester United's transfer window. There's lots of stuff to talk about, but let's just start with the main thing, really.

3:08Nobody signed, nobody left, like I said a few times in a senior sense. What do we think? Yeah, so I think I mentioned this on the last pod, didn't I? Although I didn't have the exact stat to hand in United making a deadline day signing. You have to go all the way back to 2019 for the last time. They didn't do that. So you're thinking of like Ronaldo, Lomans last season, Ugarte the season before. So it's been a consistent theme that United have made moves on deadline day. And they tried a little bit. Louis Page, probably the closest that they came to making a sign in the 18-year-old from Leicester.

3:40But ultimately, they kept their powder dry. It was kind of a continuation of the summer where discipline, restraint has been the mode of operation. And we can debate, can't we, whether that's the right course of action. Time will tell. Certainly, there's been a lot of strong reaction, more online than perhaps in person. and I think people can understand that United are in perhaps different financial times than they have been in the past. But we can, again, get into that in terms of whether that's the genuine case. Could they have pushed the boat out a little bit? Because I think we have Malcolm Carrick talking about pushing the boundaries when we sat down with him on the outskirts of Dublin.

4:18And this felt very much a transfer window that kept within the boundaries, whilst at the same time making those signings that United needed. Three midfielders was really essential. I think if you said at the start of the summer that they would get Carlos Beliba, Uri Tielemans and Andre Santos, you'd probably go that's decent, I think. They're not the star names that we were talking about. And I guess, like I say, time will tell on whether they were the right choices to make. But I think Beliba, certainly Tielemans, I think people probably would have been happy at, certainly at the price that he's coming at.

4:48Santos is the unknown quantity, I suppose. But yeah, the big point of aggravation, I suppose, is the left-back and not getting a deputy, not getting a rival to compete with Luke Shaw. Obviously, Lewis Hall was the main candidate, and there's a bit of detail in the piece around how far that got. They've obviously thought, let's look ahead to next summer for a real assault on him, because we don't feel like we've got the money at the moment to do that with Newcastle. Newcastle basically saying he's not for sale. But yeah, plenty to debate, and I know that it'll be a continuing theme as we go on, even now the window's closed.

5:20Oh, it will, unquestionably. Certainly on the left back, Andy, because that does seem to be the area of the team that the majority of people wanted to be. Well, even an upgrade on Luke Shaw, if you listen to some, but certainly competition, a backup to him, considering how many more matches there are this season for the men's team. How concerned are you about that position? Or, on the flip side, equally, do you feel there's enough cover when you look at Nus Masraoui who can play there, Patrick Dogu who could play there, even Lissandro Martinez, Carlos Baleiba, Diogo Dalo? There's cover, maybe not specialist cover.

5:53It's the one area I'm disappointed in, Ian, because Manchester United identified it as an area which needed improvement. And the players United were linked with, they were genuine. And I like the idea of Lewis all joining Manchester United or Myles Lewis Skelly, for example. Baldé at Barcelona, brilliant going forward, less so defending. But I think that area was identified because Manchester United's season this year is going to look very different to last year. We could be looking at 60 rather than 40 games. And to rely on Luke Shaw for that many games is a risk. That's why Manchester United looked at that area.

6:30So I would have liked to have seen a left-back come in, but you are right that there is cover. I'd hate to see a repeat of the situation a couple of years ago where Zofran Amrabat sort of bravely played at left-back but was exposed playing there. And you're going to be playing at the highest level. Masraoui has played for a very good Morocco team there there is over cover there but that is the one area I would have liked to have seen Manchester United improve on as for the other areas I think Laurie's assessment of it is pretty fair I would have liked to have seen that sort of A-lister midfield a two of many for example and I think we've just got a whole judgement on how successful this window has been until we're six months in, a year in.

7:18I don't know how successful Carlos Baleba, Yuri Tielemans, Andre Santos will be. I wish them all well. I'm mildly optimistic about all of them. I like the age profile of the Manchester United squad at the moment. Would have probably liked to have seen another striker. But then Josh Zierkse has stayed. Marcus Rashford has come back. Manu Agarte couldn't be sold because he's been injured. So it's been complicated. but I do like the three midfielders who've come in. I'm happy that the window's closed and I just hope we can enjoy watching the football now and see whether this window's been a success or not.

7:56We just do not know the answers to that at the moment. People are saying it's been an A, B, C, D, E, F, whatever. I'd rather make a proper judgment on it at Christmas and then at the end of the season. I'm seeing a lot of unhappy football fans, not just at Manchester United, despite clubs spending record amounts. So I'm hoping that this whole transfer window idea, this bubble has actually burst and people are now sick of it. I hope we've reached Peach transfer window because I see frustration among some Manchester United fans and then I look at other clubs and I can't see anyone who's happy. And then United's next opponents, Everton, their fans are absolutely furious with it.

8:33look I think that what Laurie and I have both just said then is is fair and maybe we're looking deeper as to why Manchester United can't spend money historical mistakes you've got the Glazer ownership you've got that highly leveraged buyout and the interest payments still giving us a headache over two decades on since since that happened but and I'm being quite optimistic I think Manchester United have got a very good squad and I think Michael Carrick did very well and I'm pretty optimistic at going into this season you could definitely be satisfied I think Laurie with the midfield rebuild like you said before you know money has been spent there it's been a complete overhaul of what Manchester United's midfield looked like last season so I don't think there is massive concern from the fan base on the fact that they missed out on people like Elliot Anderson and Mateus Fernandes because the alternatives so far look decent I suppose it is those other areas that said a lot of people would say it was a backup to Luke Shaw that was needed as opposed to someone to replace him instantly.

9:34Maybe that will come next summer, like you say. So, I mean, I almost feel like centre-forward is more of a miss than left-back because there isn't a natural alternative to Benjamin Sesko. And I think, to be honest, the fact that Manu Ugarte, Marcus Rashford and Joshua Zerksi are all still United players, I wouldn't have believed you if you told me that at the start of the summer. I thought it was certain that at least one of those, if not maybe all of them, would move on. Yeah, I mean, obviously Ugarte, without United's hand, you can't sell a guy that's got an ACL injury. Absolutely. And that then impacted what they could do.

10:07Say they get£30 million for him, would you get as much as that? I don't know, possibly not. But it does then feed into what you can buy, right? So for them to actually get three midfielders, even though Ugarte got injured, is, I think, a good thing of different profiles. Yeah, it's not. I think it feels underwhelming for a lot of people. And I have caught that kind of feeling, just because you felt that it was going to be one where United could really push the boat out and kind of, you know, you've finished third with Carrick, let's go and back him to a degree that kind of pushes you on to Arsenal, to maybe Man City.

10:38But it feels like this is more of a conservative approach to rebalance what they felt has been overspending in the past and wanting to get value for money. And it's kind of this contradiction at the heart of the transfer window, isn't it, where you've got people celebrating big money moves, but actually you know if they don't work out then it's money wasted and also do you really want to be trumpeting massive amounts of money being spent because ultimately where does that money come from it comes from the fans either buying tickets either buying merchandise or buying subscriptions to television so it it feels a little bit counterintuitive to be kind of wanting a club to go and push and spend millions and millions and millions um but by the same token ultimately what is it you know you want to support a team of good players don't you and so sometimes that does take money.

11:25And yeah, I mean, I guess that United ultimately have finished, I think, with a stronger squad than last season. The striker one is a relevant point, certainly. From people that I've spoken to, I feel that the players were looking at that area and going, Cesco needs somebody else to bounce off, somebody to alternate with, a focal point that could then allow Mbumo and Kunja to adopt their more natural positions, their best positions, it feels like, off the left or off the right. And so, yeah, it wasn't, from what I can tell, the kind of left-back situation wasn't as pressing in the players' minds because they've got faith in Luke Shaw and I think he's got a lot of support from the squad in the years that he's been at the club.

12:05I suppose he's Masraoui as well, Laurie, to be fair. Sorry to interrupt you, but the fact that he's had a good World Cup for Morocco at left-back specifically, he's obviously filled in there for United before. If he's the backup to Luke Shaw, there's a question from Gareth. Alexander Zinchenko is available on a freeze, he's worth a punt. Might not be a world-beater, but he's highly experienced. I mean, is he really going to be better than Nusma Zrawi? Yeah, I don't really see the point there, to be honest. But I can understand the question because United were looking at left-backs. So, you know, Balde, as Andy's mentioned, they had another sort of check on him on deadline day, from what we can understand.

12:41Ryan Aiton Nouri as well. I mean, he was offered to United by intermediaries. It's a dramatic one, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's a good story by the guys that broke it. and yeah I mean United asked the question and from what we can tell it was basically a loan with an obligation to buy for many millions so you're thinking well that's just never going to fly because he's not a target for them so why would you spend a load of money on a player that then blocks the path to let's say Lewis Hall next summer and that does I understand why United maybe were hesitant to go for that right now because listen if Luke Shaw gets injured then it looks foolish right it looks like you've got a really big scramble here and there's obviously in history of Luke Shaw getting injured.

13:20Last season, he was excellent, being fit all the time. He had that trip out to Qatar in 2025 that seems to have got to the heart of quite a bit of it, maybe. Since that point, he seems to be on a good level. So let's see how it develops this season. But I can understand why United felt if we go and get a top-tier left-back that's going to want to start every game, how do you balance that with Luke Shaw? Is it a better solution to get through this season and then go next summer. Yeah, I guess time will tell and I can understand people's disappointment with not going for it. But I agree with you.

13:53I actually think sort of striker, kind of an upfront guy and they did look at options. I mean, Oli Watkins was mentioned at one point, but United were never going to go through with that one, even though he got to the last two last summer. And obviously he's got to move away now from Aston Villa. So yeah, I think that I can understand why people are hesitant about feeling good about this. I think that's pretty sensible what he's saying so if you look at last year as the forwards front line was rebuilt I think it was but I get the point that there's maybe an over-reliance on Seshko but there's multiple opportunities there and I've watched back that Ipswich game some fantastic play there, really exciting stuff, now it's only one game and we lost the first game not the second one now if you look at the first year when Ineos were in charge the window of 24 soon as the window shut it was being celebrated but take me back to my earlier point you've got to allow six months or a year to make a proper judgment and i think that first window was patchy actually i'm not going to say that josh jerksy was a success lenny oro came in i'm having him matthias delict um so so because he's because he's injured um too often ugarte can't say that he's been a success but i think if you look at the inios sign-ins since dorgu in january 25 i think all of them have worked and that's really rare i think the hit rate on a successful transfer is about 40 so if the midfielders work and belabor is good and santos is good and telemans is good then that will be more power to the elbows of the people in recruitment and then you look properly at the defenders for next year.

15:43Luke Shaw's going to be in the same situation as Harry Maguire was six months ago. Does he get a new contract or not? I think a top-class left-back is absolutely going to be a priority for Manchester United. The goalkeeper situation has answered itself. I spoke to Senna Lamans yesterday. He's like, oh, it's a year ago since I signed. And that sort of came out of the blue. And then I've kept saying a defensive leader. So if the focus shifts to the defence next year, okay, but you're still going to have Manchester United being struck by the finances. So if you could buy anyone, I know for a fact United would go for Nuno Mendes of PSG, but they're not going to get him because he's not leaving PSG unless something major happens.

16:28So you're looking at that second tier of player, and I think we've seen that in the transfer window this year. I actually like the idea of signing Elliot Anderson, but the price escaped man united matthias fernandez i like the idea of that but the price escaped manchester united so i get the prudency i get the idea of saying no too often in the past manchester united have had the pants pulled down by agents and i'm hoping that reputation has now gone it's like no we're not going to do that deal we can't do that deal and partly can't do that deal because of the glazers which is a reason which makes fans really uncomfortable and with good reason but I do think recruitment has improved and I get that the mood is pretty low this week I just hope that the three lads who've come in are all successful and combining with Bruno who's the best player in the league Cobby who I think is fantastic I am not as despondent as some fans are and just speaking to Lamins yesterday just really confident about Manchester to United this season.

17:30Not saying the team's going to win the league, but back to my very first point, I would have liked to have seen a left-back come in. Sorry, what? I'm just saying, you said 21 is coming, no doubt. So, yeah, I'm holding you to that. It was part of a bad take, amnesty. I said that as a bad take. I think realistically for this season, now the wind has shut, it's to finish in a Champions League position again. I'd love to see another cup win, but a year ago I predicted United to finish sixth and they finished third. If I'm going to say Champions League again, that does in fact mean another league title coming to Old Trafford and I'm going to book my ticket for the Champions League final as well.

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19:48Take the first step to make your impact. Visit waldenu.edu.

20:10Andy, just to go back into something that you said during that answer, because looking at the emails that we've received, some of the comments we've had on YouTube recently as well, this sort of gets to the heart of of people's concerns i suppose when will united be able to do deals like elliot anderson again i think you've got to be playing consistent champions league football and you've got to be getting the bells and whistles of chelsea got a lot of money for winning that world club championship for example and then it's this um virtuous circle where your top profile your sponsorship packages sell for more i'm not going to say that your ticket revenues should be going up but they do do because you've got more games and your executive packages and then your merchandise and then your commercial deals and manchester united become a really really big deal again now it's still a big deal but you travel anywhere in the world and you're not seeing the dominance of manchester united shirts although i did see someone who went to benidorm this weekend who's a chelsea fan who counted all the football shirts that he'd seen who'd go to benidorm no idea but did he have a good time andy this guy research for later yeah lorry's going this weekend i would pay good money for a hidden camera following lorry around benidorm this weekend i really would don't encourage people and it was man united shirts by a mile um no you don't always see that you know you are seeing manchester city shirts i get this desperation when are we going to be great again because it's been too long and manchester united have failed the mighty have fallen you just look at the league tables to to see that if i'm going to see merit in this build it is a slow patient build up but i also don't think there's patience if man united finished 10th for example this season i think there'd be a major backlash and so get back into the champions league keep on building and then there's another factor that the club can't really control which I've said repeatedly on this podcast rivals are far far better resourced than they have been how do you compete with sovereign wealth funds you've increasingly seen this private equity American model coming into Premier League football and I'm uneasy with lots of elements of that as well if I'm honest so United are not the preeminent force but then other clubs seem to be doing better than Manchester United and being smarter in their recruitment.

22:35United have got to be smart. I think they have been pretty smart in the recruitment up to this window and then we'll take a judgment in this window. I think Judge Carrick at Christmas, I think that's pretty fair. See how he's doing, see how this team's playing with the new schedule and then at the end of the season, that's what a league table's for. Yeah, I think we all agree with that and it will require patience. Michael Carrick told us all that after the first result of the season when he said it was just a result. There will be them but Ipswich will be different and it was and let's hope that Everton continues on that theme and we'll preview that game a little bit later but Laurie one man who maybe was nearly on the other side of this particular fixture Joshua Zerkesy was involved in a little bit of a late drama on deadline day where Everton showed their interest again and what was the story on this?

23:22Yeah crazy one really because it got to was it like eight o 'clock I think when I got a message to say Everton are in for Joshua Zerksi. And it had been, the focus had been Italian clubs, you know, Fiorentina, he turned them down, that loan bid. Then Juventus, I think he probably preferred the Juventus offer and they went for Nick Voltemada. Napoli, I was told, were looking at him as well. And then a sort of sudden U-turn back to England with Everton. And it all hinged on the Balogun deal that was it going to go through? Was it going to fail? He was at Everton's training ground. And I think in that circumstance, that's when Xerxes got the call he was up for it I think United were open to it which sort of confused me a little bit because I was thinking I mean as I've just said there I thought they should have added a centre forward really rather than let one go so I think maybe it was never really going to go through but I think they perhaps entertained it just in case they had something in their back pocket to then trigger but yeah ultimately they said no because there wasn't enough time to get a replacement and that was that it was a fairly quick in and out and then obviously Everton don't even end up with Balogun anyway.

24:27So yeah, I mean, God only knows what David Moyes is thinking right now. But yeah, a curious case because it was like that deadline day. There was like sort of lots of bits going on and then nothing actually ended up really happening. So Harry Amas, for example, there was lots of talk about maybe him going. There's lots of clubs going, offering maybe a loan bid. Originally, it was a permanent bid. Burnley had a bid rejected. I'm told sort of like three and a half million, not on deadline day, but a little bit before that. I think Derby made a loan proposal on deadline day. But again, ultimately, because of not getting a left-back in, I think for United, Harry Amas stays.

25:01So in terms of the options, it would be great, wouldn't it, if he has a fantastic season. No one's necessarily predicting that, but let's see. I mean, Marcus Rashford, nobody predicted he would burst through into that team when he did. But sometimes circumstances allow it. And then the other one was probably Louis Page on deadline day, where United got quite far in talks on him. I'd heard a figure much lower than what it then came out to be in terms of what Leicester wanted which I think was sort of 12 rising to 15 for an 18-year-old midfielder who's obviously currently playing in League One so clearly, you know, talented boy you know, here he's sort of like a 6 or an 8 you know, good quality left footer and United look to maybe do that on deadline day it would have been quite a significant transfer, wouldn't it?

25:47if you're thinking of bringing a player in who's 18 and actually loaning him back I think that's what they were talking about doing certainly if it had gone through that's what would have happened in the end he's in the team sheet for russell martin against plymouth and that basically at that point was the end of it but it got right up to that point where is he going to be in the team or not and that quite that felt like quite a bit of deadline day drama so you know if the amazon cameras were rolling for that one then at least you've got a bit of content for deadline day whatever floats your boat laurie yeah i mean louis page i guess and he wouldn't have necessarily been assigning for now straight away but the The Xerxes one does interest me a bit more because he's not really a true centre-forward in that sense, is he?

26:28So you wonder where he is in the pecking order. It's a bit like with Harry Amas in a way. There are players in the squad who can cover these positions after the first-choice players, if they need to be rotated or if they're injured or suspended or whatever. The whole thing's depth, really, isn't it? That's kind of been maybe what's been left. on the table a little bit and we had a we had a message from from another Louis actually um and this echoes quite a few emails we received says it feels like Carrick has been left short and undermined by a lack of support the squad looks light in key areas and I feel fear will pay the price it goes back into what you said earlier about um you know judging them a little bit later and seeing how it plays out um is it just a sense of relief that this is over in a way there's different areas of depth here and so Laurie's talking about Louis Page who United have been trying to sign for two years I'm actually encouraged by what's going on on the youth side of things I think you've got quite an aggressive strategy by Manchester United to sign players for considerable amounts of money and yet they're not Premier League proven because they're so young and bringing in in Aidan Heaven who looks like an absolute steal that was another one of the 24 moves I've got to say that because I didn't say it earlier I speak to people in youth recruitment who've not got a dog in Manchester United's fight, and I just say, how do you see it?

27:50And they're pretty complimentary. They're like, Man United are doing well. They're really going toe-to-toe with people. They've lost out on this kid who's gone to Liverpool, but that's because he's a big Liverpool fan. But they're going to get him, and they're going to get him. And I'm asking these questions all the time, but these are not players for the first team. With Joshua Zerkesy, I didn't expect him to stay at Manchester United. I don't think he's been a success. What are his virtues? he's popular in the dressing room he's good in training he comes on with a couple of flicks I don't doubt there's a player there we've just not seen it in two years of him being a Manchester United player now when I say he's popular in the dressing room that doesn't lead me to think that he will become a negative influence in that dressing room because I can't see his situation changing that much maybe it will maybe he'll come on and turn a game I won't put it past him we've seen these little cameos even at Leeds away when he came on for a few minutes he was the best player on the pitch but it's not enough and I expected him to go and then Manchester United who not only paid a huge transfer fee for him but paid a huge agent's fee for him as well a totally disproportionate amount of money could not just give him away so you left with Joshua Zerksy United have got to get better at selling players how do you handle the Marcus Rashford situation differently the lad whether you like him or not has got a contract and that contract has got to be honored now he could turn out to be positive and I was pretty encouraged by start to to the season it's still very very early on but he could be you saw how good he was at Barcelona um last year but so much water has gone under the bridge that it clouds people's judgment and I understand that as well so we need the season to get flowing which takes a bit of time with these big breaks get into that rhythm of two games all the time.

29:40We hope that there's not an injury to left back, but there is cover there. We talked about Noos Majrawi. I thought in his first season he was very good, even though it was a terrible season for United. I had people saying to me, he's the best signing we've made for years. People who I really respect. But then last season, he didn't have a good season. So he needs to get back to where he was. And one of the reasons he was brought in on a big fee as well, a big wages, sorry, was because he's versatile. so I'm looking at best case scenarios for all these players I think United need look like any club with injuries but I think Michael Carrick's been pretty lucky he wins football matches the games last year United didn't deserve to win but they came away with the free points so I want to see more of the same because judgements will be harsh if Manchester United are not going to the perceived expectations of this season you know if United are 12th and 13th then the mood will be on the floor same as it ever was in that sense certainly.

30:39Okay well let's leave it there for the transfer chat like Laurie says maybe it will be reflected upon a little bit more as the weeks go on but if you want to know any more about Manchester United's transfer window about the deadline day details as well go and have a look at Laurie's piece on The Athletic and I'm going to release you to Benidorm. Enjoy yourself. I feel like we need that gif now you know of my friends and neighbours where he's just like that Release me There you go You've just done it. go and watch a game this weekend lorry i'm going to send you a match that you should go and watch knowing you're going to be polite and go yeah whatever and absolutely not go and see a football game this weekend i'm not even going to be polite mate i'm not going to go see a football game this weekend i'm so sorry actually the everton game we need to probably go now but the everton game is actually when i'm flying back so uh yeah i'll have to somehow watch that some i don't know how but yeah have a good time cheers guys

31:49Right, let's talk Everton then. And we're going to bring in Keris as well, as promised, who's joined the Manchester United team on The Athletic in recent weeks. You've been on before, Keris, but welcome back. How are you feeling about Manchester United's start to the season then? And what should we expect from this Everton game, do you think? I mean, I think a very different game from both Hull and Ipswich. How I felt about the season so far varied obviously massively between the first two match weeks. I thought against Hull United didn't turn up with enough intensity, with enough urgency. Problems that could have been foreseen weren't.

32:23And then I thought they went a long way to correcting a lot of that against Ipswich. But with that said, there was the same issues in the first half, kind of struggling with defending the spaces in the wide areas, struggling with direct attacking, there's a couple of times that, you know, if that run through the middle from in CISO goes in, it could be a very different game. So then they turned it around and played some really good attacking football, came out with commitment. What I was most sort of pleased by is the way that they put Ipswich on the back foot and kind of kept them there, which was what they completely failed to do against Hull.

32:56Everton, I think, is a very different prospect. That's a club where the mood is very low at the moment, very volatile. at the moment after their transfer window and how it ended. I think that will probably be reflected in the stadium. They've got a very vocal fan base. It'll be interesting to see how that affects the team. But from Manchester United's point of view, they've sold one of their best direct attackers in Illum and Njai. That's a massive bonus for any team who is coming in to face Everton to not have to deal with him, particularly with the issues Man United have had. so it's hard to know how Everton are going to turn up this weekend what kind of state they're going to be in I mean we can predict that they're starting line up pretty easily because in a lot of areas that there's not many options but as to what mood they show up in it's pretty difficult to predict.

33:46David Moyes has not looked the happiest manager shall we say in his press conferences and media interviews so far this season he'll hold another press conference before the Manchester United game and there'll be a lot of eyes to see and ears to see what his reaction is to how deadline day played out for them the fans are very upset they feel like he's been left very very short I mean basically they've got one right back one left back one centre forward in the squad the right back is Ainsley Maitland-Niles who just signed on deadline day he's not played for Everton And yet they've needed a left back for pretty much two years as well and have lost them and sold them during that time as well.

34:30So, yeah, I wonder if this is a thing for United to take advantage of. It can play two ways, can't it? It can really fire Everton up and create a big atmosphere inside the ground. Or if fans are upset, I'm thinking back to Wolves last season where there was a lot of unease about the ownership and the relationship between the players and the fans seemed really broken. and United really took advantage of that at Molyneux. So, yeah, it could well be something for United to use to their advantage on Sunday. It's interesting, isn't it? You get over the first 20 minutes when the fans always revert to type and getting behind the team.

35:07Of course, yeah. So the game starts, Everton are going to be right up for it. But if they go behind, the mood can turn viciously, probably more so among Evertonians, and we've touched on this in the past, than any club in the Premier League. and I feel that there's an element with them that you move to your shiny new stadium this brighter future is going to be realized ever you're going to start pushing up and qualifying for the Champions League and it's not happened and it started really well last year and then it faded and I went to the game against Manchester City towards the end of the season and there were like 10 ,000 empty seats and I'm like what has gone on here and a couple of months earlier was there when Manchester United one and benjamin sesko got that goal that was a top performance for me because everton battered um center lemons his goal in fact lemon said to me yesterday that was his best performance because he was under so much pressure and if we think or some fans of other clubs think they've had a bad transfer window just look and compare it to everton they finished the with they've got 18 senior outfield players so if one of them's injured or suspended the only way they can fill a matchday squad with senior players is by naming two players on the bench and David Moyes is a very good manager and he's not someone who lends himself to public displays of happiness you know the only time I've seen that happen was when he won in Europe and he was dancing around and I met him last year in Chicago and I got on with him I've said that before and I really like him actually and he wasn't happy then but that was in private and now I think in public he's showing um that look I'm not a miracle worker Everton fans will probably be expecting to finish mid table and improve and he's like my reality is we're going to be lucky to stay up here with the squad that I've been left with so I think there's a frustration there and he's got to defend himself because fans are turning a little bit against David Moyes as well.

37:08Hopefully Manchester United can take advantage of that because looking at all the other clubs, there's been a lot of turbulence at clubs. There hasn't been at Manchester United this year. It's all pretty settled. It just is. Key players have not been sold against the wishes of fans. And I kept saying pre-season, the mood is good. I wasn't lying. so hopefully a decent performance at Everton where United have been really hit and miss so last season was a good win the season before was arguably the worst performance that was under Ruben Amerin that was the one where at half time Ruben Amerin went back into the dressing room and the players and Darren Fletcher basically had to lead the team tour it was a disgraceful performance that from Manchester United for the last ever performance at Goodison Park so hopefully we're seeing more of last season where Michael Carrick came through the mix zone at the end absolutely buzzing his kids were waiting for him he was fist pumping them all over the shop 3 000 united fans going to everton on on a sunday and already it feels like a big game because if you win this you got six points two wins out your first three going into europe and a home game but if you lose it then it's like we lost two out the first three again i'm pretty confident in manchester united's ability to go there but there will be a sting with everton because they've got that.

38:30They've got the fans and they do have sufficient players. That Man City game I went to, they beat City or was it a draw? A draw, I think, wasn't it? Right at the end. Yeah, exactly. But there was so much drama in that because City were so dominant in the first half. Well, the title was on the line as well, wasn't it, at that point? Obviously, I was deeply concerned as I left that ground because it was cleared at Manchester City. We're not going to win the league and I wasn't smiling as I walked back to my car and drove out of Liverpool. But there is a sting with Everton there's good players there and Moyes is a wily old fox Yeah and he's found solutions to the problems that they've had over time and it'll be interesting to see what he can do with the group that he's got now to plug some of the gaps that they've got in the squad undoubtedly like you mentioned Keres Ilman and Jai huge miss for Everton, very very talented player, very threatening player for opposition Jack Grealish obviously is back now and he has been in matchday squads for Manchester City at the start of this campaign to imagine he could even go straight into the team.

39:29But obviously his fitness after missing a big chunk of the second half of last season will be in question a little bit. Merlin Roll's an interesting one as well. He's a midfielder who's been playing at right back. He's been the latest solution to the right back problem. James Garner's obviously played there as well, former Manchester United player. Jake O 'Brien has done that in the past for Everton. There's Maitland Niles now, but maybe there's something there for Manchester United and Marcus Rashford if he starts to exploit in that Everton line-up. I mean, what do you expect Carrick to do, Kerrish?

39:59Do you think he will tweak a little bit or the formula that he found against Ipswich, is that good enough to go again with? I think sticking to what worked against Ipswich, I would expect Rashford to keep that place on the left. I thought he had a very good game and like you say, that right-back spot is one to target. The partnership of Kobe Maynou at the base of midfield with Tielemans looked much more promising at the moment than Andre Santos did and I think he's got the capacity to really kind of run that midfield. I'd still like to see Santos and Maynou in the eight at some point, but maybe this weekend's not the moment for it.

40:35I think a question mark for me is whether Benjamin Cheshko's fit to start. I would expect that they would just be cautious at the minute. I don't think there is a need to be rushing him back unless there's a real need for it. We've seen the impact that he can have off the bench. So I would imagine that it'll be sticking to what's worked against Ipswich, really, particularly in the forward line. Andy, what do you think? I mean, the midfield is maybe a point of interest, considering that was one of the major things that changed from Hull to Ipswich. Yeah, I was very encouraged by Kobi Maynou's performance.

41:12Elements of Matthias Cunha when he came back, that ball that he put through to Bruno Fernandes from the first. I've watched that several times this season. I'm like, wow, this is fantastic. I wasn't over impressed by Tielemans on Sunday and yet I've watched it back and he's often the one giving Bruno the ball to fire the bullets so maybe I'm more reflective of that I said on the final whistle that I thought Lissandro Martinez had done well I said that on Twitter and got quite a lot of pushback against that probably because he just made a mistake I actually stick by what I said I think that he gives a dimension to Manchester United by being able to play balls from the defence which split the lines and there were times against Ipswich where Manchester United moved up to three at the back which meant that Marcus Rash could go wide and I actually saw some tactical things within that Ipswich game that I was really encouraged by.

42:04What are Everton going to do? They're going to fling the ball in, they're going to try and bully Manchester United's defenders like they did last year. They're going to be historically done. I remember Marouane Fellaini, 2012, first game of the season away. like they're like it similar time to this year and Shinji Kagawa just signed I think and Everton just bullied Manchester United so I'm quite happy with Lissandro Martinez being in there as opposed to some of the more inexperienced players but it clearly needs a big performance from Manchester United I think Keres is quite right to talk to touch on Benjamin Sesko he's not played a lot of football at all we need to see him start figuring more the season's really kicking in now and he is the main center forward and there were times against Hull City where Manchester United didn't have his aerial threat up front that is the weakness it's one thing that that he gives and it was so effective last year at Everton so I'm thinking a similar team to the one that played against Ipswich Town and I think Kobe just do more of the same Bruno do more of the same.

43:13Tielemans, I just think he did things which had merit against Ipswich but there were times where the Ipswich town midfield overrun Manchester United in the centre and as Kerry said that was really worrying to watch as well. Yeah, it's certainly something to keep an eye on ahead of the Everton game no question. Obviously we'll talk about that on Mondays talk the Devils whatever goes on at the Hill Dickinson Stadium.

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45:57Let's talk about the WSL because Manchester United begin their campaign on Friday evening away at the London City Lionesses. It's been a huge summer of change for the women's team. A new boss in Eva Oled, a load of new players, a load of senior players leaving as well. A bit of an unknown, I suppose, Keres, about what this team is going to look like and how things are going to shape up. But is it fair to call it a new era? It certainly feels like it. Very much so. Mark Skinner was in charge since 2021. It's really easy to forget he's only the second permanent head coach that the reformed Man United women have ever had.

46:33By definition, having your third ever permanent head coach, I think constitutes a new era. And the level of squad turnover, I think, only kind of enhances that. We've seen people like Millie Turner, who's been there since the team reformed, leaving other people like Lisa Nielsen, Gabby George. The one that is probably or unquestionably in my eyes, the biggest hit to the actual first 11 is Melvin Malau going to Chelsea. United got a very, very good fee for her, but that is undoubtedly like a massive blow to the attack. So we don't really know what to expect at the moment. Olin's a coach who just did her first press conference this morning, spoke about sort of her desire to play attacking football, to play possession based football.

47:16She spoke about like how a lot of her principles might take a little bit more adaptation time. She's a coach who has played with a back three before. That's her kind of preferred method. And she was mentioning this morning about sort of the fullbacks like Jade Riviere needing to adapt to a bit of a different role. that's obviously something that Man United fans will be listening to go oh here we go um but she's been like the word suffer at all yeah she didn't thankfully I didn't see suffer anywhere in the transcript imagine that's a band character it's a band word by any person yeah but it'll be interesting to see she has been more adaptable she's not completely kind of wedded to that formation but I do think it's one that they will possibly try and line up with in in this first fixture it'll be interesting to see how they adapt to that because it's not one that they've used much before.

48:05And London City are a really tough opening game. The names like Alexia Pateas, who's come in. London City last season, but to an even greater extent this season. It's almost quite a lot like fantasy football in real life. In a way that you don't get as much in the men's game of just bringing in tons and tons of individual quality and throwing as much of it as you can at the pitch and seeing what gels and what works. it worked for them last season they stayed up after being promoted which is incredibly difficult to do in the WSL and they've just strengthened further um they'll be bang up for it they'll see this as a chance to make like a massive statement against kind of a club that is an institution versus a club that is kind of coming onto the scene and trying to build a fan base build a reputation and build a name for themselves they I think London City will be bang up for it Man United have them and then they have Chelsea and then they have Arsenal so it's a brutal start to the season and I think it there is merit in not drawing too many conclusions and having too many hysterics if results don't go the way obviously depending on performances what the reaction should be but the first three games are going to be really really difficult.

49:20Andy we talked about this when Mark Skinner left and Ivor Oled came in United's lowest finish in the past five years, I think he's fifth in the WSL. They've been pretty much the best of the rest. Obviously, outside the top three of Manchester City, Arsenal and Chelsea, there's been times when they've broken into that. They've done okay in the cup competitions. Obviously, they've won a major trophy. They've got to finals. They've made an impact in Europe as well in the Champions League under Mark Skinner. Only that one season, obviously, but there was progress there, but there's still underneath it all concerns about the style of play, the relationship between Skinner and the Manchester United support as well.

50:00I just wonder now, obviously with all this change, what do you think the expectation is for this campaign? What should supporters want from the team at the moment? And how much of a threat are London City Lionesses, maybe Spurs as well, to United being that best of the rest side in the WSL? I think it's pretty sobering because Manchester United have been a selling club this summer as Keris touched on Melvin Mallard left for Chelsea for just short of a million euros I think Millie Turner wanted the originals and Lisa Nelson went to newly promoted Birmingham for pretty considerable transfer fees Eva Oled has come in Catalan, she complained about a lack of resources when she was at Hearts hopefully she won't be complaining about the same but there is a financial reality, attendances are down the TV deal has not been the the money spinner that it is in the men's game and I think there's a financial reality here and I think you're getting some very ambitious rivals such as London City who are playing at Bromley maybe having the argument that we're going to speculate to accumulate that the women's game is going to be bigger in five or ten years and I think Manchester United could see themselves pushed out of getting into the European finishes and I'm not overly optimistic I also must say that when United did get into the Champions League last year, I thought that the support was pretty poor.

51:26Not from the people who go all the time, but you played games at Old Trafford, the PSG game, 15 ,000. Now, it was a horrible night. It was a school night and all that. But the Bayern Munich game at Old Trafford in April, the crowd was really poor. Do Manchester United fans want a successful women's team? Because the crowd in Munich was four times bigger than the one at Old Trafford. it's all right saying invest more money i get that argument i get the argument that it might be a loss maker at the moment but in 5 10 20 years time women's football will be much more powerful and and maybe even profit making and others have seen that view as well but i do not i'm not as optimistic this year um and i'll try and get to the game next week as i was a year ago because of the financial constraints.

52:18I don't know if you think I'm being fair there. Keris, I speak to lots of fans who go to all the matches and they were saying to me last year, release the purse strings, spend more money, spend more money. I get that argument. But if the attendances are not increasing sufficiently, then I think that's a harder thing to do. Man United's argument, sort of the line coming out of the club this summer is sort of being that the level of spending in the WSL across other clubs is not necessarily sustainable and they are trying to be sustainable and they're trying to do that by among other things recruiting young players at lower prices developing them bringing young players through from the academy into the first team I think that's going to be far more of a focus this season it was something that people really criticized Mark Skinner for for not doing and Everolid is going to be tasked with doing a lot more of that the difficulty there is that you know I think Manchester United fans have an expectation and kind of rightly so of the academy being a really important route to the first team the context of female players coming through into senior football can be very different the loan pathway is not always as good the opportunity and kind of the adaptation can be a lot more difficult Megan Ferringer did a really good piece on this a while ago but in terms of kind of how United should behave towards their women's team.

53:39There is an element of the expectation at Manchester United and of the institution to be competing for titles is there because it's Man United. The reality is that the team is less than 10 years old, invested heavily enough to kind of get into the WSL at the first time of Askin and to compete, you know, really better than any other newly promoted side has done. The demand is changing. The market is changing and I do think that at this current rate of spending and the model that they want to take, they are gambling. And there is a risk that that model results in people like London City, people like Tottenham Hotspur, who've had a really good window, catching up and pushing into the Champions League places.

54:26What the right answer is, I don't know. because there's a pragmatic kind of reality, as Andy's been saying, about the financial side of it. There's also the person in me who grew up as a Manchester United fan without a women's team to watch and wants to see that team invested and wants to see them do really well. But I think the attendances thing is a really interesting question as well. There's a question of building a fan base. When is the right time to play at Old Trafford instead of Lee Sports Village? Like, what is the audience that they should be getting? Because it is natural for United to be behind someone like Arsenal, who've been invested in building attendances and building a really strong fan base for decades.

55:12The history is not the same there. That said, I think Manchester United have one of the most vocal and most committed core fan bases in the WSL. So a bit of a long and rambling answer. and it's really hard to say this is how you build a successful women's team in this current kind of economy and the state that the league's in because it's in a massive state of flux. I watch a lot of women's football with my daughter. She had a picture taken last week with Aitana Bonmartie. She's the best player in the world. My 12-year-old was absolutely buzzing. The hero was there right in front of her eyes. I'd love the idea of Manchester United to be bringing top players through.

55:52itana plays for barcelona who've also been selling the players because of the economics that we've been talking about because players wages have risen so fast they're like this is not sustainable it would be interesting to see who's going to be proved right this london city model playing the games at bromley where you build very powerful team and it has been done before wolfsburg did it leon did it i went to watch leon play 15 years ago they were getting 13 14 000 now if you're getting that many you've got serious buying power you're getting 3 ,800 it's more difficult and Keris is right the fans who go to watch the women's team I love the culture there I love the fact they've got a fanzine they got the podcast I love the flags it is a real thing but I am I'm not overly optimistic going into this season hopefully I'll be wrong well hopefully yeah um let's let's just round it off by talking about some of the new players that have been brought in Keris um Obviously, there has been some money spent and Rebecca Bernal made it four incomings or senior major incomings for the team over the summer.

56:55She's the captain of Mexico. There's a bit of pedigree there. What should we look out for? Yeah, Bernal's one that is unfamiliar to the WSL. I think it's her first time in the league. Obviously, whether we see her tomorrow night at London City might come a little bit soon. So she's one to watch, very experienced, like senior international, as you say, and adds sort of like depth that is really good at centre-back. there's only so long that Maya Letizia can continue playing every single minute of every single game for Manchester United, even though she's done a cracking job of it for years now.

57:25And obviously with Millie Turner leaving as well, that was an area to add more depth. Monica Jusuba is a left winger brought in from Hecken, which is, you know, United have recruited really heavily from the Swedish league and had some joy with that. So she's another to watch out for absolutely rapid um i think is the main kind of attribute to know about her again something that needed yeah something that needed addressing after after mallard's departure as well andrea medina has been brought in at left back to add some depth there like a younger player how she fits in if it is like a back three and wing backs i'm not entirely sure um but she she will be part of the plans it's just which kind of role she takes on there and then you need a light sig as the other signing who's been brought in from Leicester City is kind of like she's been one of the standouts in a very poor Leicester City side that got relegated.

58:17She was their number one. She'll be back up to Fallon Tullis-Joyce. That's strengthening the goalkeeping department. So United have tried to act smartly in the market. There's not like a marquee signing that has come in. They've tried to, I think, bet on a mix of potential and experience, address some of the gaps that have been left by some of the really high-profile departures. The quality of the starting XI, I still think, is very strong. My concern is the depth of the squad, because there have been, I think, six senior departures and four incomings, one of which was a goalkeeper. So that's the concern.

58:57They obviously don't have European football to contend with in terms of the schedule. this season is a slightly longer season because the WSL has been expanded from 12 to 14 teams so that's a different equation for them to deal with but you know the new signings are strong players how they adapt to the WSL I think is like when you see on the men's side players coming into the Premier League new signings in the WSL speak all the time about kind of the pace the physicality the intensity of it being so far above kind of often where they've come from, particularly like places like the Swedish league, it takes time.

59:35So that's why I'm just, I wish I could be more optimistic about the opening weeks of the season because I feel like a hub and you're a doom here, but there's adaptation to a new coach. There's adaptation for new signings and there's a really, really difficult opening run of three games. the positive I think that Man United fans should kind of take away the two things that were major criticisms under Mark Skinner I think were not playing attacking enough football and not bringing young players through those are things that the new coach is really looking to address and has put a lot of emphasis on okay well we'll see how it plays out shall we over these next few weeks but it's been brilliant to do that preview with you Keris so thank you very much just before we finish shandy more sad news unfortunately from the fan base um the Manchester United supporters have lost another icon amongst us haven't they yeah and Manchester United fans die every day it's a it's a fact of life but I do feel it's important to mention some we mentioned Darren Webb a couple of weeks ago and and on Wednesday John Cunningham Scotty died in Manchester at age 67 so he was in charge of like I mean it's very well-known figure among the the match going fan base and he was in charge with the the travel companies he ran coaches in the 80s and by the 90s when manchester united were back in europe after the ban taking huge numbers his company was the the biggest one taking huge numbers of people to places like porto i think most people had a good experience not all but most did and he was a real character he ran that famous trip to galatasaray where everyone got locked up for doing nothing wrong in 1993 and i think he spent a couple of months extra in Turkey over there becoming familiar with the Turkish prison system because he was in charge of the group that had ran the company there real character very well known and obviously very sad as well I've seen a lot of people talking about Scotty so I'd just like to say rest in peace and condolences to him to his friends and to his family yeah amen to that definitely another important figure in the Manchester United fan base has been lost and like Andy says our thoughts are everyone who knew and loved him.

1:01:51Okay let's leave it there then for Talk of the Devils. We'll be back on Monday after the matches over the weekend. We'll react to all of that for the minute thank you so much for being with us for listening and watching along. Thank you Andy thank you Keris and thank you Laurie for before as well. God knows what he's been up to this weekend but I guess we'll find out. We'll see you on the next one. Take care, bye bye.

1:02:34The Athletic FC.

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