What does derby defeat say about Man United?

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1:39The Athletic FC.

1:57This is Talk of the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. It is our first ever post-match live stream. Unfortunately, it's a defeat in the Manchester derby that we are reacting to. That was not the result that we had in mind when we planned doing this. But hello to everyone. Thank you for joining us on YouTube. We are also live on the Athletic app as well. So thank you very much for joining us, whichever way you're doing that. We're here in the studio here in Manchester. All three of us are here, Laurie and Andy as well. We've all been at Old Trafford for the game. We want your takes, we want your views, we want your questions on that 90 minutes for Manchester United.

2:33Hugely disappointing, there's no other way to cut it, losing 1-0 against City when they were down to 10 men for such a long time. But yeah, we'll do it together, we'll talk about it, we'll go through it all. Andy, first of all, don't know where to start really. I think it's just the result, I think. Let's start simply. How bad was that? shit it was really bad and I would expect Manchester City to finish above United this season but when they go down to 10 men so early in the game given the players Manchester United have got I would have expected Manchester United not to lose the game to win though to not to lose that was my fear and I just had a bad feeling this morning and the more that game went on, the more that feeling grew.

3:25Because I think City found a resolve. They made a good substitution at half-time. They defended very well. But I'm not concerned about them. I was concerned that Manchester United were unable to score. Were unable to break down City. They've got top defenders. The goalkeeper had a good game. United had lots of shots. But a lot of them were from distance. And United did it to post twice. But then City had other chances as well. and I will end up talking about the sending off and the goal but I feel bad because we're four games into the season Manchester United have had one league win and that's not good enough that's not saying I'm going to start panicking and raging because I think we're at exactly the same point this time last year as well and we even had that game against Brentford to come but the way we're feeling now I feel bad I'm sure you two feel the same way you've just lost at home in a derby and if you're a City fan you're going to be buzzing because you've won with 10 men and it's a couple of years since they've won at Old Trafford I found it pretty gutting to see how well Elliot Anderson played for example we can pick out bits of positives as we've been able to do with every Manchester United game this season but it is a defeat it's a second defeat and it's at home against Manchester City so that result sets the mood it would be different if it was a draw and it would be completely different if it was a win but United United frustrated themselves out of getting anything Yeah I can tell how you're feeling about it and obviously we'll go through all the different aspects of it just having a look at the comments and thank you already for everyone getting involved some of the adjectives Laurie embarrassing disappointing very flat robbed ourselves they're coming and coming and coming to be honest they're coming up that quickly I can't even read out who's posting them.

5:19There's no other way to cut it, really, is there? There's different aspects to get into, and we'll talk about it. We'll talk about the decision for the goal, the red card, what it means for Michael Carrick, the protests from the fans that you were a part of, or at least watching on, and the Brighton Cup game, which is a huge game all of a sudden as well. But just the overall sense that you've got, what are we, an hour or so after the match finished? Just allows for those creeping doubts about everything, transfer window even Michael Carrick because obviously he exceeded expectations with what he did at the end of last season so but Demoralising that's a good one Demoralising is it particularly doing this like me and Andy were sat across from each other after Andy had ignored me for the first 15 minutes and then eventually oh right there you are and so I was trying to wave at him he was in the zone and but when that something off happened there was a sense of kind of this is crazy that this has happened so soon and I actually think that Foden probably obviously it is a kick and you can see why he's been sent off but the way that he goes over Bruno Fernandes afterwards and kind of leans over him a bit like Roy Keane over at Haaland all those years ago I think that kind of makes up Michael Oliver's mind a bit but anyway so you're down to 10 men we're looking at each other City are down to 10 men thinking this is a great opportunity for United here huge opportunity to go and put a marker down beat City that's what makes it so demoralising and you've got the away fans there chanting about Enzo in your head doing the fucking Poznan afterwards and you're just like, this is all the stuff you wanted to avoid.

6:50And even a draw, a draw would have been like, okay, what's that about? There's some uncertainty around the team still, I think. But obviously it wouldn't have left United feeling as low as this. And listen, maybe we're being, you know, too sharp in the immediate aftermath. But I think it does speak to those wider questions around the transfer policy, around the situation in the club. I think, you know, Carrick was right. afterwards I tried to get into the substitution with him a little bit but I probably could have been more direct to be honest with the question in terms of why was Rashford taken off why couldn't you play the full game again to be honest I was surprised that he started but he said these players have done well for me many times I think it was the first time they've not scored for him at Old Trafford is that right I think that's what he said What was the Leeds game last season 2-1 in the end they scored there didn't they is it 9 out of 10 wins at Old Trafford under Carrick before today yeah that's right so it's strong stuff so he's saying I'm not going to get too serious with them I'm not going to criticise them too much the record's great under Carrick as a whole the bigger picture from the start to this point the record is great it's the fact that all that momentum that was built up last season with those performances with those results has it gone?

8:06I think it might have gone already and we're in a similar situation to recent seasons where you know we're near the top of the league and the league's four games gone. I can remember going into like October 24 under Eric Tenarg and the mood was on the floor because the season had started so badly. Well, Brighton and Fulham is going to have to be good in order for the mood to even be, you know, challenged basically this week. But Sabah and City needed to be good as well. We can't just keep pushing it back. Just meant because the international break is coming and that's a chasm. I know it is. I know, I know.

8:40And Brighton's record at Old Trafford is pretty worrying so that's not good Fulham had some good wins there but we can't start talking about Fulham just yet there's one of us well that last season we'll do that later in the week yeah and it just worries me that again I didn't think United would win the league this year but City and Arsenal have won all four games City not even playing that badly according to City fans I know not that well not that well even today there were so many misplaced places City weren't good today in my opinion but the winning and you've got to find a way to win and United are not finding a way to win so we can curse after Everton away but we didn't win and you can pick out all these positives and the Ipswich game was a win the Sabah game was a win but one win in four is a disappointing start to this season and we'll judge properly or I will at Christmas and then at the end of the season but I would hope that Manchester United finish in a Champions League position this year and if you start looking like that that's not going to happen.

9:42Again, it's very, very early. Again, this happened last season and actually there was a good run of form throughout the autumn. We thought the will was caving in after Brentford away in September. So we are only near the start of the season, but it was a bad result today. Are we here again? Yeah, because... Are we here again? That's the thing, because I remember doing the shows at the start of the season. It feels like ages are going, but it's only a few weeks ago and there was so much positivity going into that whole game. Pre-season, the results weren't perfect, but the mood of the group, the end to last season, the transfer business to that point, there was a lot of positivity.

10:18Yeah, there was. And that wasn't a lie. No. And even now, I don't think the players are down in tools on Michael, for example. I think there is a good group of players, but they need to get results. It's all right saying stuff like this because all our contacts are telling us X and Y and we can pick out bits of positive. I think Marcus Rashford has been decent this season. I was shocked that he got took off. but again one win in four and more worryingly what happens when Luke Shaw doesn't play what happens when the fixture list starts to pile up which it will do which he didn't do last year so that's why people people are worried and then just not being able to score today not being able to break a ten men down not having that sharpness in front of goal sort of coming close but not really having loads of chances but none of them are on target.

11:12Cobby had a shot, great shot actually, which hit the post. That was the moment when it fell actually in the night we're building. Yeah. And the whole of Old Trafford wanting him to shoot in that moment, not like Cuny in the first half where he dragged his shot horrendously wide after, was he picked out by Cobby? No, it was Rashford tackling Foden, wasn't it? And then that created the chance for Cuny. So that was, the crowd were up anyway. Cuny, bad choice to have a shot there. May know having a shot was the right choice. Great effort. Unlucky that it went and hit the post and then didn't hit the back of Donnarumma and go in.

11:42And then the City goal happens and it just, it seemed to throw United. It seemed to totally, and they never really. City got better and United got worse. Yeah. And they never got back to it. There was that one chance at the very end, 94 odd minutes, Bruno to Mbumo. He should score. He should score. He should score. It's a beautiful, it's the one moment of calm thought that seemed to go in in the final third because everything felt kind of rushed and just loose. and yeah, it just never clicked until that moment and then ultimately Donnarumma, the guy that I said was perhaps a weak link in City's defence.

12:16He had a good game, didn't he? Did what he needed to do, yeah. He didn't really get, it was curious to me that they didn't put him under more pressure and had the ball at his feet. There was a few moments where they sort of could have pressed really hard and aggressively. They didn't quite do it and I was curious about that but yeah, in terms of shot stopping, he did what he needed to do, didn't he? After an hour, I saw a stat that United had five attempts on goal in the first 15 minutes of the second half. City hadn't had any. None of them were actually on target for Manchester United. And then City score.

12:45I think a few of the players didn't find the range today. Bruno Fernandes. Had a really bad game for him. Yeah, really bad. I mean, his best pass was to Erling Haaland in the first half. Yeah. Nearly set up a goal there. Oh, down the middle. That was a poor pass from Martinez. It was, it was. It was a bit fast, wasn't it? But still, it was erratic. Yeah, but still, you're right. and then I think that was Haaland's first touch in the game. Yeah, it might have been. One of the first touches. But you're setting him up. Diogo Dolo did it a couple of times as well. Just heading to giving the ball away in places that you cannot do it.

13:16Paddy's saying in the comments here about Bruno looking tired. I mean, we didn't really talk about it after the game the other day, but maybe playing the 90 minutes against Sabah was noteworthy. We should have talked about that really because it's very easy to take him off, isn't it? He plays so many minutes, especially headed today. You kind of just think that's what he does, but then actually, yeah, in hindsight, we probably should have given that more attention because you could have easily taken him off. And limped away from Old Trafford after the Sabah game. Did he? Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't know that.

13:44So clearly, yeah, he did. He was pictured, not heavily, not badly. No, no. Feeling the effects. Yeah. So in hindsight, you think, whoa, what happened there? Because we were talking about Sabah being perfect because there was a clean sheet, there was lots of goals, there were lots of changes but that is one where Bruno didn't have a good game today Cobby did have a good game today Cobby was the best player for United wasn't he especially when Foden went off yeah well he had a couple of moments with Anderson Anderson got one over him later in the game and the City fans really responded to it but in the main I thought Cobby was the better player and he was unlucky to be on the losing team today right we've not talked about the decision yet which we will definitely talk about there's no question about that you know the one I'm talking about But just to reflect before that on the starting line-up, I was shocked when I saw the line-up from both teams because I did not expect either manager to be quite as attacking as they are.

14:40Clearly not picking Sesko and picking Cunha is not necessarily being attacking, but Patrick Dorgut left-back definitely is. And we talked about could Enzo Moreska stop jump midfield? Could he pick Kusinov at right-back, not Mateus Nunez? and all those decisions showed me that he felt that this was a game he could go after. What did you think about the choices that Carrick made? When I was outside the ground, I was on some at Busby Way, where the mood was all right. And when I saw the team sheet, my first reaction was negative that Luke Shaw wasn't playing. I think he's played 41 consecutive games for Manchester United and he struck up a decent partnership.

15:16In the Premier League, that would be. Yeah, with Marcus Rashford this season. So no matter what Patrick Dorgue did, you're throwing someone into a Manchester derby it's only the second game he's ever played at left back I don't think he was terrible for United that is yeah I think he did he lose the ball it was the goal it was really bad for the goal he's positional you can see why they were thinking he's not a left back really in the summer that's why they were looking at left backs because they'd sort of bracketed him as a left winger he's played all these matches for Carrick at left wing ok it's only 8 but prior to this season but But so then, and that's why they're looking at Lewis Hall and we can perhaps get into that a little bit more.

15:57And it comes home to roost, doesn't it? When they don't come. It just seems curious. Why would you not do that in pre-season? If you're going to do it, then in a Manchester, it's a big game. I asked Eric about this a few weeks ago in a press conference and he said that he'd not had Patrick for long referencing the fact that he'd been out injured for such a big chunk of last season. But I do think looking back now, if he's going to be your first reserve at left-back to Luke Shaw, surely he should get some minutes in pre-season at left-back. And why not Masraoui, who's played in that position? They're a very good national team.

16:29I suppose it's an attacking choice, isn't it? It's a case of, I think he can damage City. So City have gone attacking. Well, we're going to fight fire with fire. And actually, I think that should be lauded generally as a Manchester United manager principal. But the positional play that he has, it doesn't look like he's minded defensively. Because for the goal, for example, it's his poor touch from him to Maguire. there's a bit of miscommunication then they've got it City but Dogu goes chasing after the ball and then you could see it happening where Martinez has got two men at the back post Fernandes and Haaland for quite a while and it doesn't kind of come and eventually it causes the goal but it just it was all that defensive line-up at that moment was all over the place and I'm sorry to say that I think it was because Dogu went looking after the ball and that's where I mean yeah that obviously just needs correcting doesn't it because that feels like that could be an issue continuously unless it's addressed properly.

17:24The goal needs correcting as well because it wasn't a goal. Anyway, carry on. Well, no, we'll talk about that, I think. I spoke to Alessandro Martinez after the game. Fair to say, I'm sure a lot of people have seen the interview by now, absolutely seething about that goal being given. Very, very unhappy at what he saw as Enzo Fernandes massively impacting him. He basically explained how, as the ball's coming across, he sees that Enzo Fernandes is free, he sees that the cross is coming towards him and he has to readjust his position from being on Erling Haaland at the back post to make the move forward onto Enzo Fernandes.

17:59Now the explanation given by the Premier League match centre is that they viewed Haaland to be onside, which was correct from Dogu's foot, but that Enzo Fernandes didn't touch the ball. But Lissandro Martinez's argument, and I believe him, is that he believes that Enzo Fernandes trying to get on the end of that ball across is directly impacting his actions and in the laws of the game on offside that's offside yeah that's what it seemed no play no city players appealed for the goal as well the whole stadium was just waiting for um the goal kick it was a windup it felt like a windup didn't it it felt like it went on then you're like what are they what how are they trying to ward this goal it was so it looked like harlem was miles offside when you first saw the replay um and actually it turns out that Dogu's foot being just turned out to try and block the cross is what ends up playing him on.

18:49But the Enzo Fernandes movement. It's just absolutely categorical. It's offside. It's not even up for debate. You look at the rules about interfering with play. Just about to get them up as well. We've all got them on our phone. We're all now experts in this law. It's that sort of day. Everyone's been looking up laws. I've got like five pages of rules here. That's just on building regulations. That's not even the football. It just says, making an obvious action. This is 11.2 offside offence from the IFAB laws of the game. Making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of opponents to play the ball.

19:23So maybe that applies. Clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent. It's definitely that one, isn't it? Lissandro Martinez has explained. It's a checklist of everything that happened, isn't it? It's just everything they put there is what happened. I watched a goal. I was watching Match of the Day for some reason on delay. Brentford played, who did they play when they drew 1-1? Anyway, Kelleher's, it was early on in the season, like two weeks ago, but I've watched 1070. Yeah. Why are you watching back old versions of I want to watch all the football eventually and I've not had time to watch it.

19:54And what was compelling about watching Brentford's one-all draw? I just wanted to watch it. I'd not seen it. Listen, also, FPL, you know about this kind of situation. I needed to see who was playing well. Thiago came straight on my team after that anyway. But Kelleher's in goal and there's a defender in front of me, Danso. So it's Sunderland, Sunderland-Brentford, Ballard's goal gets disallowed for offside. It's not really even obstructing him. They trot that off on VAR. It's mad to me that they've actually now gone in. And also, is that not a subjective call, whether he's interfering with play or not?

20:22So it is. And normally, the subjective call, the official, in this case, Michael Oliver, would be asked to go to the monitor to review if the VAR believes that it's the decision. Because normally, obviously, offside is objective. Whereas with that, it's whether the action is impacted or not. So it's a subjective call. But presumably, in the explanation given by the match centre and the fact he's not sent over to the screen, they are just judging whether Haaland is onside or offside. And that's the point of the decision. End of discussion. I mean, that is just absurd, isn't it? That is a farce.

20:53Listen to Lisandro Martinez. He is the player affected by the action of Enzo Fernandes. He explained it very eloquently, to be fair. But even if he doesn't go for the ball, he's still interfering. He's died for the ball six yards out. Lomans, for example, is also... How can he go for the ball or not? Well, it's the fact he goes to try and head it, isn't it? He makes every effort to do that, to be honest. Do you reckon Fernandes has apologised to him? Do you reckon he's got that in him? I reckon he'd robbed the chickens and not apologise, wouldn't he? This was the annoying thing because then he could revel in it all, couldn't he?

21:21He did the long walk around, he got the away fans. He's been in the World Cup, doing my head now. Siri agrees. Siri's just said that it wasn't a goal. It was a good finish, sorry. it was a good finish to be fair but he's never offside either ever for a player who plays like that he's never offside but we can focus on that United should have scored as well but the problem is we can fixate on the decision and we can understand why with all the arguments that we've put forward but the point is did they do enough to win aside from that no not really and that's the problem isn't it yeah

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24:36I was just looking back as well. That's the third time in 12 months that United have lost against 10 men. They did it against Everton under Ruben Amarin at Old Trafford last November. They also have done it twice now under Michael Carrick because they defeated Newcastle with Jacob Ramsey being sent off in 45 minutes, Casemiro equalising and then obviously Isula scoring the goal at the end which won the game for Newcastle. The pressure builds. But it's also the issue isn't it? It's the issue of how United deal with that situation. It's the issue of United dominating the ball in games being the protagonist in games.

25:08It's the same recurring thing even miles beyond Michael Carrick's timing charge. And this low block. Exactly. Enzo Fernandes said it after the game. He said half-time I told my players it's going to be more difficult for us. Enzo Maresco. Sorry what did I say? Enzo Fernandes. Well yeah he might have said it as well. To be fair, Enzo Moresca, sorry, press conference. Too many Enzos. Too many Uzos for me. He's in your head. He's in my head. Enzo Moresca said, I told my players, it's going to be harder for us, obviously, 10 men, but it's also going to be harder for them. They play on transition. That's what they want.

25:40So we won't give them that. So you've actually got, in a weird way, the best possible team. Usually, if you're playing against a low-block team, they're technically not as good as you, right, from a United point of view. But actually, you're playing against a low-block team that have got quality and a very good striker, probably the world's best. So yeah, he obviously alluded to that. And it was interesting, he actually said it was a red card, by the way, on his post-match press conference for Foden, but he said it was also a red card for Bruno. Yeah, well, in his opinion. I don't think there's an argument whether it's a red card for Foden or not, to be honest, when you react like that.

26:15Bruno's maybe a bit cuter, smarter, I don't know how you'd describe it. It's less overt, and it's so overt from Foden. Yeah. I think Bruno's body is probably more of a natural incident in a game. You can probably explain the way you're trying to get to the ball, maybe, whereas in Foden's case, you definitely can't. I do think he took the bait. Maguire took the bait. I don't think Maguire should have been sent off at all, but for that booking, he took the bait. The Fernandes thing. Who was it? Oh, it was the same player. Yeah. I think he was just reflecting how frustrated all that was at that point.

26:47Yeah, I think he was trying to jeez things up because Mbouma came across and kind of gave him a half. And I agree with you, he kind of risked maybe getting... in trouble, but I think he was trying to, trying to impose his personality on Fernandes, who seemed to be having his way, basically. And Maguire, to be fair, again, was like trying to cause stuff up the other end as well. Oh, he gets sent up front again, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. He did a lovely turn in the first half as well. He was carrying the ball forward, but we're just picking out the scraps. Is that the headline? That was a headline, good term from Mario Maguire.

27:16Walked out the press room, just seething. And the first person I saw walking in was City's manager, Moresca. and he's probably a decent fella and he's sort of looking up to let, or not he knows me, just being polite and saying hello to people and just put my head down. Went back into the press box, did my work and he walked out and he's looking up again to say, just put my head down as well. Maybe he does know who you are if he keeps searching you out to give you the... No, he doesn't. I interviewed him 15 years ago by phone and at that time you couldn't see through phones like you can. That was when he had hair.

27:43He looks so different when he's got hair, doesn't he? He does. Anyway. Why are we talking about this? We're trying to just, you know, get away, get our minds off, yeah. and I didn't blank him by the way coming into the ground Laurie had said I blanked him coming into the ground and I didn't I said hello about five times I was in the zone I don't like speaking to people I don't like speaking to like city journalists and stuff like that I can see him at the end of the game coming up to me standing in front of me like that so deliberately just ignored him yeah yeah I got out there and one of them who I do actually like but he's a big blue he stood in front of me I'm just pretending that I don't know he's there yeah And then he comes up with a line like, United did that to themselves, which was pretty magnanimous of him.

28:24But you can be magnanimous when you've just won the Derby, can't you? So I wasn't blanking him. And we agreed to walk to the studio together. But it was like walking with Mr. Bean. He's incapable of walking with you. He's just on his phone. Because obviously he'd not reached his 23-hour quota in the last 24 hours. I was advertising this. I was just marching along like Mr. Bean. I told you I'm a fast walker. I did realise I was suddenly on the tram tracks without realising. I was like, I need to get off these. That would have been quite an end to the derby, wouldn't it? It would have certainly ended on a bad note.

28:54Anyway, thank you everyone for being with us on the live stream. Is that it? No, it's not it. Don't normally do this halfway through, but I'm trying to thank people and encourage them to get involved. That's all right. Put your phone up. Siri's mad at you again. This is the Talk of the Devils live stream. We are live on YouTube and live on the Athletic app as well. Thank you so much, everyone, for joining us. We're up to about 3 ,000 people, I think, on YouTube, something like that. 3 ,007? Go on. Sorry. 3 ,008, now you've said it. But yeah, thank you everyone for joining us. Get involved in the comments.

29:28I'm trying my best to keep abreast of all the messages, but there's a lot coming in. Just to pick a few out then, some of the issues that we've touched upon, Laurie, to be honest, but Barty says, Bruno, the worst I've seen him in years. Mogan says, only player above average today was Kobi Minu. Obsidian, I think that is. Cobby consistent throughout the match despite everything that was going on PJM do you think the lack of creativity with all those players on the pitch is a concern and one as well I don't know how to read that out but basically can we talk about Michael Carrick substitutions I mean you tried to ask Carrick about the changes yeah what was it you were trying to get out of him I probably just been more direct like why did you take Rashford off I sort of said what's the context around you know that kind of choice it was such a mealy mouth yeah I just you know what I mean he just had a load of that's what you want to know though I know I should have just been more anyway right why do you think you did take Carrick off Rashford off I don't know I mean he took him off for Everton didn't he I know I could have asked him I could have asked him more directly listen that's going to be my mission for this week well there's maybe some concern about muscle fatigue or some sort of well obviously that's what he's taken off against Everton with a suggestion over but I just when you're in the he was playing well you know he had that free kick I mean if that free kick had gone in the roof would have come off hits the post it's the patterns though and the flow and the sort of interaction between all those forward players because in the first half it looked like they were given a bit of freedom and Carrick said in his free match and through the middle as well at times so it looked like Mbumo Cunha and Rashford were interchanging and Carrick had said in his pre-match interview to Sky that But Kunja was important or along those lines, he was the one needed for today's plan, basically.

31:15And that's why he'd started ahead of Benjamin Sesko. But I don't know, the relationships just didn't seem to be there. I wonder, I mean, obviously Rashford's new to that group, I guess, in a certain way. So, you know, this pre-season, there's still obviously things being worked on. But I just think he got the ball and went with it. And okay, all the dribbles didn't come off and, you know, he got into the box and then perhaps he didn't know exactly what he was going to do with the ball. But it just puts it on the back foot a bit. And you just sort of felt like if United were going to break down this low block, then having him on, I don't know, just keep him on.

31:49He can do something in a derby. I don't know. But listen, we'll find out. He's already got. He ran back and retrieved the ball. I thought Marcus did okay. He just needs an assist. He needs a goal. I can't believe he's not had one in some ways. I know. I think it'll come. And I think Michael Carrick thinks it'll come. I think Michael Carrick's good with him as well. And he's not going to flap about this. He'll be disappointed. He'll be annoyed. But he'll also be very determined to get things back moving again. And I think he deserves that as well. I don't think you start, you know, I'm not even going to look at the comments, but I don't think you start making snap judgments so early on.

32:26No, I think the comments are more reflective of a general disappointment in the way that the season started now and today. And I think people, someone's just written it there, the comments are flying past Chris has said we need more from Carrick and I think there was again this was something last season that we talked about a little bit but just maybe a bit more proactivity just take the game to City a little bit more in the changes bring Sesco on at half time take I found that take action when the goal goes in as well it was like seven minutes between Haaland alright there was a little bit of a check for two or three minutes between Haaland scoring and the goal being given but it's still the 67th minute when Sesco comes on We all knew Sesco was going to come on, didn't we?

33:07Yeah. Well, I found that I was speaking to before the game. We were kind of debating the line-up. And at half-time, he goes, Laurie needs to bring Sesco on now, basically. And I kind of agreed with him, because what's the point of waiting, really? I mean, who would you take off? I suppose that's the... Cunha today. Cunha, yeah. But clearly, yeah. Today, for me. That relationship is interesting. Like, what is Cunha... Maybe Cunha is doing something that I'm not necessarily seeing. But I agree. I think Rashford on the left, Sesco up top. And then you've got the option for the cross. you know and gives you totally different options yeah you can pin them back more he's a centre forward he's the only centre forward there and he brings something to it and Kunja you sort of feel he's 6 out of 10 and doing alright and he looks alright but it's not good enough when you come up against a top team you've got to be decisive you've got to put your chances away you know he'd had good chances today and didn't score enough though did he create enough and Bumo's chance at the end was a really good one that's the only one he had the post twice yeah but they were shots from distance Kunja had one in the second half didn't he when he sort of blazed it over there was a few in that period that were kind of close-ish but you wouldn't call them chances it was Mbuma was the only one and that was like I say a calm moment at the end Bruno picking him out but then the other sub he made two subs right so Xerxes was the other sub that speaks to this is a player that you've basically been trying to sell all summer and listen credit to him he's obviously a talented footballer but is he the player that you want to be sending on when you're 1-0 down.

34:35Zerksy came on for Rashford, didn't he? Yeah. Right, okay. Yeah. And Telemans went on. Telemans, that affected the midfield a bit, didn't it? Yeah. So I think it didn't work at the subs, did they? I don't think you can say that. In favour of Zerksy, he can change a game perhaps more than other players. He does bring something different. He's a skillful. Yeah. He's got something. Remember it like Leeds away, he came on and he had the lovely little cameo. You always mention that with Zerksy, don't you? Yeah, best performance ever. I'm just going to grow that now. there were actually others came off the bench scored the winner against Fulham didn't he like his first game yeah what was the game you tried to get the chance started was that Real Saucyde Real Saucyde away good goal that was a good goal that was the zombie chant that now they've nicked you know that was a great goal that started that was Casimiro playing the ball out wide that was a great that was a really lovely thing he ran onto it but all I mean is you can put him on whatever things might happen but I just mean it shows where United are at when that's the player they'd turn to in this kind of situation when City have got, you know, whoever else they've got on the bench.

35:38Their attacking options on the bench were quite short today, actually, to be honest, compared to United. I suppose it's got me in the£85 million midfielder, Buadi, for example. Yeah, yeah. Depends to the midfielder, but yeah, I take your point. I just think that can they change tact quicker when City go down to 10 men? Can you work out something in-game about how you can tweak things, even with the personnel that's on the pitch, to try and exploit the fact you've got a man advantage. And maybe a more experienced manager would have done that. City didn't change their tactics, did they? Didn't feel like it much, no.

36:12I think they probably sat back a little bit more. I thought Ndi when he came on at half-time was a real threat for them and pushed Dogu back quite a bit as well. He won the ball quite well, didn't he, Ndi, I think. He does. Yeah, that's what Morescu said. He said, Cherki's great, but Ndi went through the ball, basically. They pushed him towards the front at the end when they were celebrating in front of their fans. There was Noel Gallagher in that end as well. I've seen him on the screen today. My barber was in that crowd. He cut my hair on Thursday. Oh, no, it explains it. Your barber's a City fan.

36:45I've been wondering all these years. But on earth, going on, he must have a hell of a sense of humour as well. Although the stick I've been getting over the summer for my new trim, I should maybe keep my thoughts on myself. Yeah, but you get a new trim? Yeah, he did it for a bet, didn't he? Yeah, something like that. What should we talk about next? Bigger picture stuff, I suppose. Just looking at the start to the season. Now, we've had a few comments basically saying, listen, the argument is over now. No matter which way you cut this, it's been a disappointing start to the season. And there's pressure now on Brighton because you want to ensure that the League Cup campaign lasts longer than it did last season and the FA Cup campaign lasts longer than it did when they drew Brighton at home last time and even Fulham, I suppose, next weekend.

37:33And like you were saying, Laurie, before, I think, you know, the doubts that everyone had, they just sort of make them a little bit more nagging, don't they, the result today. I actually thought that was the worst result stroke performance for Michael Carrick so far, actually, overall. And that includes getting beat against Hull on the opening weekend. I think you can sort of explain away one game that's a bit like that against a promoted team away when you're not quite at it. Because it was at home. Because it was against City. Because it was against 10 men. Yeah, all those. Because he couldn't score.

38:05Yeah, I agree with it. And I agree with the comment from the viewer as well. The pressure is there. It has been a bad start to the season. Leeds might have been worse for him because that might have jeopardised him getting the job permanently if they hadn't then gone. But it was a one-off. It was then a one-off because they beat Chelsea. But I mean, if that had started something. The thing is, if they'd won every game up to this point and lost the derby today, we'd have been massively disappointed. But we didn't, we lost at all. Yeah. The cushion, if you lose games like that, your cushion goes.

38:36Yeah. Just does. But then Hull are brilliant, aren't they, as they've shown. But we can't start looking and going, well, Ipswich are decent as well. The fact is, Manchester United won one game in the opening four, and that is not good enough. They conceded too many goals as well. And then you think, how good is this team? If we are hoping that they're going to play in the Champions League, then you've got to finish in the top five. Have we seen any evidence of that so far this season? Not really. So what we're hoping for, that Sesco gets fully fit. What we're hoping for is that Carlos Balaba puts on his cape, gets in that midfield and sorts it out.

39:10Yeah, and I spoke to a couple of lads today who are former pros and they're like, they just need Balaba. They need the qualities that he brings. Someone who can run, who can bully, who can carry the ball. And I'm looking forward to seeing him play. But I can see how it'll start being written. but Labour is you know this is can he sort of kickstart Manchester United's season and that takes us back to where we've been so many times in the middle of September I can remember it being about Rooney eight or nine years ago and it's just ground dog day isn't it and that is frustrating because you look at the top of the table and Manchester United are not there it's City one foot played for one foot Arsenal played for one foot and that that feeds in to a general sense of frustration which is palpable among Manchester United fans.

39:57Today was the first day I missed Casemiro. Okay. That's the bigger picture thing. Well, I mean, set pieces, that would have been set pieces. Play for set pieces and get it in the box. I just think back to last season how often they had a goal from Casemiro under Michael Barrett. When you really, really needed it, he got it, didn't he? No posts, no shooting over. Bang. Yeah. He just got the goal. Yeah. And he did. And that connection with Bruno. Because it's the one aspect that they haven't replaced with the summer transfer business. The numbers are there, clearly. Some of the qualities may be an upgrade, actually, on Casemiro, let's be honest.

40:29Certainly, you hope the label will bring far more energy and proactivity in the midfield than Casemiro was capable of. But yeah, that knack of getting it when you need it. And Telemans, I'm doing my ratings each time, making notes on every player. There's about 500 pages on Deleu. And at the end of each game, I've got nothing on Telemans. And that is a good and a bad thing, because he isn't getting the headers that Casemiro was getting. And I don't think he was playing, but I don't think he played particularly badly today. And as Laurie touched on, I thought United were worse when he went off.

41:03So he's that linker. He's got his absolute qualities. But I thought their midfield played well today. You've got to be breaking down 10 men. Cobby probably benefited from the extra space more than anyone. Superb to start the second half. He's a beautiful footballer to watch the way he swerves and turns and plays and passes around the corner. But yeah, it's a good point on Casimiro. And him back. No, that ship sailed, unfortunately, hasn't it? It was great while it lasted. Let's do Brighton then. I mean, it's just a huge game, isn't it, all round? I don't want to build it up too much because it is early in the season, but it's a cup tie.

41:40And yeah, they've got to win. Yeah, I just don't want it to be a repeat of January. No, no. It's a kind of underwhelming feeling there. do I have a look at the recent record against Brighton oh it's bad mate how did Brighton go on this weekend they played against 10 men so surely they struggled right well how long was the 10 men for not quite as long as United for playing against 10 men but it was Coventry City and not Manchester City but still you know what you're getting with them they're a really well run club I mean they beat them 3-0 at the end of last season what's the issue the issue is Brighton thinking that they're thinking that they're a decent club if you're a good club Brighton let's see how many they bring on Wednesday night I reckon there'll be sabber levels coming up to Old Trafford I'm being slightly facetious here that they're good they've had good wins at Old Trafford at least they've not got Danny Welbeck at least they've not got Carlos Buleba but they'll have three new players who no one's heard of who they've signed from like Ecuador or Moldova who are on the way to being sold for 100 million and they'll have the game of their lives at Old Trafford the League Cup is a big tournament for Manchester United because I don't think we're seeing the team who are going to win the Premier League here I'd be stunned if Manchester United won the Champions League.

42:51And I'm reverting a little bit back to that top four on a trophy. I don't think that Ruben Amarin took it seriously enough last year. I think that result against Grimsby was a horrendous result. We didn't feel like the team were ever prepared for that or what they were going into. That's a failure. Yeah, yeah. That's bad planning. But Brian at home, that cup defeat when Fletch was in charge, wasn't he? That really stung as well. I'm sick of being stung by Brian. They're going to have to be a strong team. Yeah. I don't think there's a chance of giving minutes to players there now. I think that's got it now, isn't it?

43:23And Fulham's on Sunday, isn't it? Yeah. It's not that. It's just the fact they need to win. Yeah, they do need to win. We can't really take the fortune of rotating, the luxury, sorry, of rotating. Probably against the worst team we could come up against as well, given how good they have been. But I did beat them home and away in the Premier League last season. Yeah. Good, good. Look, I'm having your positivity about it. I'm trying. I am trying. I hope you're right. I've just got a bit of a downer on them They do attack don't they Brighton So you know Maybe that's why United have had some success against them Another match that I watched on delay Was the Chelsea Brighton game From Stafford Bridge Coming under this Recording of matches Exactly I also saw Maitland Niles Shrinking a load of shots But anyway Yeah So 3-0 down 3-2 4-2 4-3 in the end So anyway They score They concede I think that hopefully suits United because they prefer an open game.

44:18Yeah, as Nagy says, I don't want to say it, but Brighton will be favourite. Surely not at all. They can't be a favourite. But if United don't win that, we've got a problem. Yeah. You know, you need wins. But then we needed a win against Ipswich and we needed one against Sabah and we need wins. Yeah. Because if you're not hitting... So last year we were thinking a European place finish, sixth place. And that was par for last year. And Michael Carrick overachieved to his great credit and got us into the Champions League. and this year, Manchester United, I think, need Champions League football for financial reasons more than anything else because if Manchester United are going to get back to a level where they are outbidding Manchester City for Elliot Anderson, you need to have the financial muscle to do that.

45:01So United came up short. They didn't want to spend the whole budget. We can argue rightly or wrongly on that, but if United are in the Champions League with the riches that it brings and there's been loads of articles about it on The Athletic in the last week with hard numbers, serious, serious amounts of money. And if you're not, it's snakes and ladders. You're falling back to the bottom again. And it's depressing because this keeps on happening. Under the ownership model that Manchester United have got with the Glazers, where money is being paid in interest because the debts are clubbing, it makes it even more difficult.

45:32You've got to be getting in the Champions League. And if you look at the league table now, it's still dead early. Two wins and you just zoom right back up. Well, Dexter's saying, chin up, we're not even a month into the league season yet. He's kind of got a point. but at the same time and I'm not knee-jerking I'm not saying that there should be any changes of personnel I think that Michael Carrick will hopefully come good it's raw as well because this is a live stream after the game match finished what a couple of hours ago something like that whatever it was but that's why we wanted to do it we were hoping it was a win it's not but obviously we'll talk about it no matter what

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48:10another aspect to talk about from today Laurie and you were there before the game for the protest by Manchester United fans about the current ticketing situation at the club obviously organised by the 1958 group we've actually got one of your videos that you took earlier to show

48:41Yeah, so that was taken before the game on the top of Samat Busby Way. And obviously the fans then made their way down to the ground as well. And obviously made the protest inside the ground as well. The TRA removing all the banners from the Stratford M, which has been a huge feature of match days across the last couple of seasons. And just one banner held up the way you treat us is a disgrace. Clearly a lot of anger over the current situation. Yes, there's a few things coming together here. So the 1958 protest was primarily about the ticket touting clampdown, I think, that came into effect and the club released some numbers about it over the last day or so.

49:18Yes, I've got some of the numbers. 685 accounts were blocked as part of the touting investigation. something like 450 maybe just under that were initially challenged and then obviously with explanation the the um the situation was was then removed so that those accounts were okay and there's i think there's 200 odd more that then they kind of said well you weren't doing it for financial gains so we'll kind of let you off and so i think that's the group of people that i feel for the most because you've got 700 or so people there that have had to basically prove their innocence and i get that they're trying to do a clamp down on tickets out and i think i can understand the reasons for that but then when you've got these people that are just innocent in the situation feeling like they're not wanted that that causes friction that that is that is a really desperate situation really emotionally um difficult situation to be in what were the protesters saying that you spoke to well i didn't speak to any i just sort of went out and just observed it and just sort of felt that okay i get a sense of i've spoken to enough people at different moments to understand what the grievances are i mean the banner itself that they were holding up said you take it all from us and banning us for nothing that obviously suggests uh an issue with the fact of them basically doing a blanket um kind of approach to some of these issues that are coming up um and in fact so you might just say okay well this needed to be dealt with in a way the ticket's out in but by the same token then it feeds into this idea of not being wanted so you've had ticket price rises where they came in without consultation midway through a season 66 pound tickets and you've got so Jim Ratcliffe on record talking about needing to be more expensive than Fulham with Andy's interview in the United We Stand then you've also got the uh the message that went out earlier last week was it the automatic cup scheme which has been around forever you know this well 20 years or so where if you don't you know you have to opt in basically and if you do opt in and you know your details don't go through then you know basically you lose the option to have a...

51:19You're obliged to pay for the ticket. Basically, yeah. But the wording of it was just so clumsily done. And it then causes another rift where you're thinking, do you even want us here? And then the TRA, I think, credit to them, they've created a really good atmosphere at Old Trafford in moments. So the flag certainly is an element to that. The singing, they're trying to get youth into the ground as well to make it affordable. And so they're about the atmosphere. And so for them to say, actually, we're going to withdraw that because we feel so at odds with what the club are doing, I think it's really stark.

51:46and you said the banner there that was held up. You had Ratcliffe in the director's box. You had Avram Glazer in the box, which is a rarity. So I don't know if that has any impact or not, but I think they need to appreciate this. It's a serious topic, this, because once you erode that trust between fans and club, that love, that loyalty, you're going to get a diluted atmosphere at Old Trafford. And you see it, they've changed, haven't they? They've got people on the pitch paying thousands of pounds, presumably to get selfies or whatever and have that on-pitch experience. It feels like for some people, we're not wanted.

52:18We're the past and actually all we want is people that give us more money. So that's something that the club really do need to address. Whether these protests have that impact, I'd really like to think it would have them taking note. What do you think? I was outside. I was there. I did speak to people as well. I think in addition to what Laurie said, trust levels between fans and the club are really low. And there are a number of reasons for that. and it's pretty sad that it's come to this situation. If you think the enthusiasm which was around when Jim Ratcliffe took over, we put him on the cover of United We Stand and that wasn't misplaced at all.

52:56People really felt that it would be a force for good. And I remember when he presented a shirt to Bruno Fernandes, 250 appearances, and he got applauded. He won't get that now. and there's lots of reasons why the trust levels are low. The ones that Laurie's touched upon, I think some of the comms, the tone of the comms, like last week, everyone knows about the automatic cup scheme. That's not the issue. It's the tone of it. And in the summer, the tone of the comms about the season ticket clamped down. And fans, I've got readers who will say to me, I've been waiting to get on the season ticket list.

53:38There's some good coming from this. and then I've got other people who are caught up in it and they're telling me they've done absolutely nothing wrong and I think there is a mistrust between fans and the club I don't know how you rebuild that but it's really sad today that you look at the Stratford end and you've not got all them flags because I think that's been one of the positives of Manchester United's fan culture in recent years I think there's worry and suspicion about what lies ahead is it going to be a new stadium are we going to be consulted on the new stadium will we be able to afford to go into the stadium so there's a direction of travel not just at Manchester United but at other clubs as well there are similarities even at Manchester City or Liverpool where season ticket holders feel under threat I started writing this three years ago no one really paid much attention to it I could see what was happening at Barcelona and the club will say they're not looking to reduce the number of season tickets okay fine if that's the case then stick by that that's absolutely fine what clubzilla will start doing is saying well if x club's charging this then to compete with them we're also going to have to charge this but who loses out there tends to be working class fans who cannot afford the higher price points i don't have any issue with executive fans at Old Trafford.

55:06In fact, half of them are Mancunians done well. They've treated themselves to a nice seat. I don't have any issue with there being a lot of exec seats. There's 9 ,000 at Old Trafford. It brings in a substantially disproportionate amount of money. But your general admission tickets have got to be kept at an affordable price. Now, I think for season ticket holders, they have been. But there is a worry that that will change. and there's a lack of trust and it's a sad situation that it's like this. And also, social media wants angry, raging fans. No one really likes positives. If the club do some good things, and they have done, by the way, do you know this week we saw the fixtures were announced for Christmas and confirmed.

55:57That was only because Manchester United went to the Premier League a year ago because we were kicking off and they've been changed. So we now know who we're playing over Christmas. That was Manchester United. They don't really get any credit for that because negatives do far better online. Don't give people reasons to put the negative stuff out there because so many people looking to kick Manchester United as well. I'm sorry to bring this conversation to a close, but we've got some breaking news on our live stream. There has been a statement from Pro Ref, which is obviously the referees group now for the Premier League about the Erling Haaland goal in the Manchester derby today.

56:37So a spokesperson has said, following the incident in the 60th minute of Sunday's Premier League fixture between Manchester United and Manchester City at Old Trafford, we can provide clarification regarding Erling Haaland's awarded goal. The on-field decision was offside against Erling Haaland. That was checked by VAR and he was found to be in an onside position. In the same attack, it was established that Enzo Fernandes did not play the ball and therefore that makes any offside offence subjective. However, on this occasion, the VAR did not recognise the likely impact of his position and should have recommended an on-field review.

57:14Contact has been made with Manchester United this evening to acknowledge what we deem is an error of judgement. A review of the incident will take place. Wow. I know United were fuming. I spoke to a couple of people. They're absolutely livid. That's mad to me that you can be official though and watch that and not think Enzo Fernandez is interfering and recommend a review. It's just so obvious. Michael Carrick was fuming afterwards. Well, he said, basically, he said, oh, well, you might get an apology. You want to think about more dialogue. He's like, well, thanks, I look forward to that. Samuel Martinez bemoaned the fact that they'd had a briefing for an hour over the summer about all the different sort of aspects of officiating and some of the changes in some of the, you know, sort of interpretations of the law.

57:55How significant is it for them to put a statement out? It doesn't happen very often. No, I didn't think that. They've made an error. Yeah. The last time I remember it was the Luis Diaz incident when it was Liverpool Spurs, maybe two or three seasons ago. Yeah. So what do we do? Replay the game? Yeah. Crack on now. Yeah. Let's get back. In it? Yeah. So you'll probably want to replay it in that ground where it holds 25 people. The Joey Stadium. The mini boot camp. I mean, the press box is too small to let United journalists see. It just makes it even more for sure. Yeah, it's just so obvious, though.

58:31I thought this is surreal. I was watching it like, they can't be... Why is this taken? It's obviously offside. If Arlen's not, it's Fernandes. What we said before, though, he should have been sent to the screen to have a look at the subjective element of the offside call. And he would have called it offside. You cannot in any way, shape or form, think that he's not interfering with play. It's just a fact. So it's not a goal, but that doesn't preclude the wider questions that we would have... If it had been nil-nil, what would we be thinking here? it would be it'd be a bit like hmm what went on there you'd kind of be okay I think if Umberma would score at the end you would have felt a little bit better because you'd escaped you wouldn't have lost yeah you'd have escaped with a point well then you should have been a win well yeah you still would have felt like that and you still would have gone what a missed opportunity that was but you've not lost you've not lost in the derby so what happens now is that it we're sorry we still lost the game yeah I guess so yeah yeah I mean to acknowledge to acknowledge that they've made an error is very unusual No City player thought it was a game.

59:28Even Harlan thought he was offside. So, I mean, okay, fine, you've got the ruler out and Dorgoo's toe is like then, fine. But even Harlan sort of thought, I'm offside, fine. He wasn't protesting, was he? Just when you were talking about the fans, not to sort of take it away from this conversation, you want to hone on it, but it was actually really loud at Old Trafford to start with. So like all the protests that happened, all the kind of distrust. It's a Barbie day, though, wasn't it? I know, but it did feel, it felt like, okay, hey, everyone's up for it. And it just didn't take off in the way that it could have done.

59:59How do you think things improved with the supporters now then? Obviously, you've seen the protests today. How do you think the club actually listened to what the issues are and improved things? Several things. Results, whether we like it or not, do affect the mood. If you're winning. But I don't think any of the people who are behind the protests. but I'm on about in the sort of mainstream maybe it does affect the mood how much attention it gets you mean I just think when you're losing people are more annoyed and looking at why is this what would everyone want would be to see the end of the Glazers involvement in Manchester United that would make I mean every Manchester United fan would agree with that is that going to happen I've got no indication at all of that happening I think supporters there needs to be some wins for supporters I think it's a tricky one I have got other readers who are saying what the club is doing is right but the majority are not You do the tickets out and clamp down you mean Yeah and I've got people saying that they can't get a season ticket I can't get in the loyalty pot It's a closed shop How am I supposed to get into it when I was minus two when it was started I think ticketing has always been and will always be a problem.

1:01:22My uncle said it was a problem in the 48 Cup final. And part of the problem is supply and demand do not equate. You're getting 15 ,000 applications for 3 ,000 away tickets. You've got 12 ,000 people who are predisposed to be annoyed and predisposed to think of reasons why they're annoyed. and lies proliferate as well in this environment. Because of a lack of trust, you've got an unhealthy environment where mistruths become truths. And I think Manchester United need to... It's not good to be having a civil war with your own fans. No. It's just not. No, no, no. Not for anyone. It's not good for the club.

1:02:12The club don't want this either. Well, fans don't want that either. Fans don't want it. Not really. you know the the match going culture there are there are there are unwritten rules which may not be applicable to terms and conditions where there is a culture among my friends and wider friend groups where if you have a spare you help each other out you don't make a penny from that and that is a long-standing culture you don't even think of charging anymore you might tell me the same among your mate absolutely the same yeah you know and that's a good thing but it also means the same people end up going to away games more or less so a positive of that is that that's your hardcore away following that bring and the away following has been fantastic down the years they bring the culture yeah they bring the songs even people who hate man united admit yeah but good away following yeah you know what i mean i hate them but um but then you also have people going i can't get an away ticket i've applied for 20 games last year and i've got one away ticket this is the problem that we got i've always said that for home tickets old traffic needs to be bigger whether that's by expanding it so that you can get more tickets for for local people for younger people for people who can't get tickets um the idea the road direction of travel is it's going to be a new stadium with 26 000 more seats that's a conversation for another the day yeah okay right well we're coming to a close on the live stream uh it's our first post match ever talk the devils live stream um i hope you've enjoyed doing it with us despite obviously the day and the result and some of the talking points as well we'll be back to talk about brighton obviously after that game on thursday but just to sort of bring it up a little bit if we can just to finish this off how's it going to go against brighton lorry Well, every time The United have lost Under Michael Carrick They've won the next game So, they're going to win Okay I like your enthusiasm No, no, we said we're finishing Bringing it up a little bit Oh, sorry Yeah, yeah Sorry, alright I'll just, yeah, we're going to win But I'm not feeling it right now I'll be honest No I'm feeling really pissed off Yeah I'm sorry I hope we didn't Prove us wrong, play well No, these lads are good players They showed that they're good players last year They beat Arsenal They beat City They beat Chelsea City beat Liverpool.

1:04:35Nothing's happened to make them stop being good players. The Manchester United, get back on it under Michael Carrick. There you go. Beat Brighton, smash them. It's within him, isn't it? It's his DNA. You can't help yourself. Run in front of the away end. Give it the big one to their 16 travelling fans. Go down to Fulham. Beat them as well. Go on an international break. Have a little holiday and get back on it. United have got to find the groove and they haven't found it so far this season. And that is disappointing. Let's hope it's coming. Let's hope it's coming. Can we mention your ribbon, actually, before we finish?

1:05:04Well, you just have done. We spoke about Webby, who died. There was a memorial for him on Friday at Hotel Football, and I was handed that, and so were other people there. And it was really sad and lovely. And his mother was there talking about a son who died, and his partner was there, and the nurses who tried to save him from Salford Royal were there. And his partner was pointed at the nurses. and Brian Giggs was there and Wes Brown and Brian McClare he's a well-known lad and his partner said they tried to save Darren two days before he died they were still trying to save him it's just horrible it's just horrible so I just thought I'd wear this today in the misguided hope that it would make Manchester United win the derby he'll be sat somewhere just as frustrated as us I'm sure knowing the character that he was well I'll be arguing with one of his blue mates up there, won't he?

1:06:02Probably, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Okay, well, we'll leave it there anyway. Thank you so much, Andy and Laurie, for being with us. Thank you, obviously, everyone for joining us on the Athletic app and live on YouTube as well. Like I said before, we will be back on Thursday after the game against Brighton to react to whatever that 90 minutes has in store. But for the moment, thank you for being with us and we'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.

1:06:50The Athletic FC.

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