What is Carrick’s vision for Man United?

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1:57The Athletic FC over all the details of United's historic pre-season friendly against Leeds at Croke Park last night. Andy and Laurie are both here, still over in Ireland, still busy at work, the pair of you, aren't you? Yeah. We are, but we're separated by 90-minute drive, Andy. Yeah. I left Laurie at the Players Hotel, which is absolutely gorgeous, one of the most beautiful buildings. As you can see behind me, the landscape, the grounds, Emerald Isle, here we are. Yeah, and then I drove from there north to Newry. So that's where I am at the moment. I'm travelling around with Andy Cole and we're now in Newry.

2:37So in Dublin yesterday and all was good and I'm sure we'll talk about it. Yeah, definitely. There's lots of details to go over with the friendly against Leeds in Dublin. But let's start with Michael Carrick. Laurie, you've been speaking to him as part of a press pack this afternoon. There's loads of different things to get into actually with this interview. But I think we need to start with transfers. So as Michael Carrick says, and I quote, I say that, I need to find it in the running order. There it is. We would like more. We need to keep on pushing for more. So this transfer window is not done then.

3:10I don't think so based on what he was saying there, which I think is the major talking point amongst fans, isn't it, at the moment. You know, there's, what, three weeks left of the transfer window, two outfield signings so far, and Eurid Telemans and Andre Santos, both have looked good in pre-season, to be fair, and he spoke about that as well. how not necessarily throwing money at the situation will give you success, actually working with the players you've got and the understanding and being smart in the market can produce good teams. But clearly fans think that more is required. I do think more is required.

3:42Carrick thinks that more is required. So let's see. It certainly wasn't the most exposition that you're going to get from a manager. No names were mentioned, no positions even were really mentioned by him, although I did sort of put on him the midfield and also left back and he didn't dissuade me from that, particularly on the left-back topic. Didn't say no, Laurie. That's the crucial part. And I'll take that as a yes then. Like the true journalist that you are. Exactly. Is that twisting it or is that just actually objective fact finding? I'll let you reconcile that in your own mind. In three weeks to come.

4:18Yes, good, good. Yes. I often have to reconcile things in my own mind, to be honest. Yeah, so I think Carrick's never going to be giving us chapter and verse on things like maybe other managers would do. But I think it is then telling when he does say, no, he wants to be pushing. You know, he sounded, you know, happy with the squad that he's got. He said, listen, we've got, I think we're pretty balanced, you know, in terms, I think it probably means two players per position and he's 4-2-3-1. Although that requires, you know, an academy player maybe, you know, like a Harry Amas at the moment, for example, being that left back or, you know, a player sort of playing out of position, maybe as Mbumo as a striker, you know, or Sesko.

4:53But I think that then ultimately he's saying we need to do more business and kind of stay tuned, I think, is what he was getting at. Stay tuned for what, Andy? How many more do you think they'll get? I don't know. The answer to that, Ian, I just know that they're looking at players and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more movement within the transfer window. I've also seen Michael and put stuff to him and he didn't deny it. I said to him, London is the capital of England. He did not deny it. I said Dublin is the biggest city in the Republic of Ireland. There was no denial there. so this is the public exposition.

5:28You're getting the hang of it Andy, that's the kind of stuff I like to hear. Hardened hack behaviour this. And I think the point Laurie says about him, good mood, good young squad, I think we're seeing loads of positives in the way that they are playing but the transfer window has still got a bit of time to run and I think the areas where Laurie mentioned in terms of hopefully improving the team are the areas which Manchester United are looking at, but I don't know how many players will come in answer to your question. What areas do you think are the ones to address in priority? I think they're now onto left back, really.

6:06I mean, why haven't they made more moves? I think probably they have behind the scenes, but obviously the prices that are being quoted or not even being quoted for their targets is an issue. So Lewis Hall being a prime candidate, I believe, in that left back role. Newcastle say he's not for sale. you know, United, I think, have sort of tried to figure out what that might require to get him. But at the moment, I don't think anything is moving in that direction. So is that because United are taking a breather, seeing how Newcastle fare, you know, if they're looking at replacements, I don't know.

6:41And then getting towards the end of the window and thinking maybe a deal can be struck. Alternatively, they're onto different targets. You know, Myles Lewis Skelly has emerged this week as someone that's been offered to United and Chelsea as well. how much money would he take though? I think there's certainly a feeling that it'd be more than the reported 45 million pounds and it's all very interesting at Arsenal and Lewis Skelly and losing an academy player you know how does that relationship work between him and the fans and then the club as well you know there's a bit of PR optics here at play so I think they're interesting cases and obviously there's other you know options that United could look at and you know Harry Amas played last night started the game he's played a lot in pre-season I'm still you know I still believe that he will leave the club, you know, either on loan or permanently, but I think probably it's leaning towards a loan now, whether that would then need a new contract for him before doing so, because he's got, you know, terms running to 2027 plus one at the moment.

7:36So you'd kind of think that United would want to extend those if he was to go on loan. But, you know, in an alternative world, could he be, you know, a player that actually ends up sticking around? I think it all is still to be determined seriously. And, you know, that's, I guess, what Carrick's getting at though, pushing, pushing the boundaries. He kind of said that word quite a bit, improving, get better, help, you know, all those kind of words. So he obviously is that mindset that, yeah, he likes the players that he's got. And I think it's felt like quite a positive pre-season, certainly some of the performance.

8:05I mean, we can get onto the Leeds game in particular and some of the moves were excellent, but still when you've got Champions League football after having a season of 40 games, it's a big shift. So players' quality and depth is required. Yeah, you mentioned the PR around Myles Lewis-Skelly. I mean, he scored for Arsenal against Como in a pre-season friendly and his celebration, people have interpreted many, many different ways. It was sort of like almost like an apology, sorry hands together and then like a heart gesture to fans. So does that mean sorry there's been links with me going away? Does that mean sorry I've been offered to Chelsea and Manchester United or sorry that I'm going to be playing in a different shade of red come the end of this transfer window?

8:46I mean, in some ways, Andy, he would make sense because he's English, because he's got Premier League experience and because he would actually cover two problem areas in one for United. Yeah, it answers a lot of Manchester United's problems. I think he's a top player, didn't he? He started in the Champions League final. He did, in midfield, yeah. Yeah, and I think he's a top young player. Why would Arsenal sell him? Because they need the money. I also think it's interesting what the Manchester United pitched to a potential left-back because Luke Shaw is the left-back. Luke Shaw is the first-choice left-back.

9:16Are you saying to someone, and you're going to come in and be our left back and play every week. I don't think you can really say that unless you're signing Nuno Mendes or someone like that, which is not going to happen. So are you saying come in and you'll be fighting for a place? So if they buy a player who can play more than one position, that gives more options, not just to the manager, but to the player as well. And I think Laurie's point about PR and optics is pretty interesting here because Arsenal, from what I saw, were pushing back on the idea of him being sold. So you've got a player, you've got an agent, and you've got different people within a football club, maybe wanting different things.

9:55People say to me, Arsenal, what is Arsenal? Because sometimes the manager, Barcelona is a great example of this, okay? Barca do or do not want Marcus Rashford. Well, the manager absolutely wanted him, but the club didn't, not to the same degree. So you're getting different variations from within a club. And I think this is all going to be spun up as the transfer window moves towards the end. That's when the pressure comes out. That's when you get people pushing to get deals done. It always happens. It happens this year. And of course, the season will have started as well. So if someone's not figuring, then that's also a good indicator of what might happen.

10:32I think you're right in terms of the two positions, Ian. We touched on this, I think, in the piece that we wrote on Lewis Skelly, that if United could get a player that goes left-back and midfield, that is something that would be ideal for them. you know, Lewis Skelly, obviously he came through as a midfielder really and then he had to, you know, get into the team at left back. It's not really his, his ideal position, I don't think. Lewis Hall similarly actually came through at Chelsea in midfield and then under 21s became a left back and Eduardo Camavinga actually also, you know, can play left back I think as well as, midfield is, you know, priority isn't it?

11:03But I think that's why Why have you brought him up? Just because I think he's a player that United have, you know, again, you know, being looked at, being offered, you know, a player under consideration and could perhaps fit bill but the money that would be required there maybe that's beyond again even you know the likes of Louis so the money is such a big factor here and that is something that we got onto with Carrick you know United are now the only big six club that haven't bought a player for 100 million pounds or more now that Tottenham have bought Sandro Tonali and Carrick's point to that was yeah listen money's money we know what it can get but you still you've got to work with the group of players it's all about football it's all about people so you know money is kind of irrelevant in that regard but then he obviously accepts the point that sometimes you have to pay big money to get the best players and that's this kind of fine balance between what do United now go and do how much does it depend on even now who goes out the club because I think to Andy's point the expectation was that Marcus Rashford would go to Barcelona and that would bring in you know 26 million pounds and that then sort of changes who they go for.

12:02Yeah it's not just Rashford either is it it's Manu Agate as well who you'd expect to have been sold this summer and obviously with his injury that that's impossible Joshua Zerkes he's still around even some of the players who've left on loan I suppose with Bindir and Onana would you have expected to get a little bit for them potentially maybe not but it all it all goes towards damaging the budget I mean have we got any indication of what's left what United can do Andy in the remainder of this window budget-wise I don't think anyone in the club is going to give you a hard figure because anyone watching that is going to go right you've got 72 pounds and to spend on a player because you've just made it public doesn't serve anyone any advantage to to say that um i think i had a fair indication at the start of the window i think there is money there to do a deal i think we've said a few times on this podcast i don't think i'll be seeing 100 million pound players coming to manchester united just yet you're quite right to mention agate he's a player who would have been sold how much were you got from Agate for Agate on his wages difficult one Marcus Rashford I certainly didn't expect that that situation to end up how it looks like it ending up and also I've said several times Manchester United need to be better at selling players on and getting more revenues and you can usually do that better when you're in a position of strength I think United will continue to do exactly what they've done look for value look to be smart and they've made some good moves in the transfer market and from what I've seen the reaction to Yuri Tielemans while it wasn't the reaction to Bruno Fernandes last night wow when he walked onto the pitch was really positive and his football's been good Andre Santos as well is settling in but I am not going to get carried away from a few pre-season performances either this is just an indication of where we might go with that I've seen pre-seasons where United have battered Real Madrid and then lost to Swansea at home in the opening game of the season.

14:00But I do genuinely sense a few things about Man United. It's a young squad, but there is a good buzz there. And we've seen that already under Michael Carrick. This isn't us saying like the new managers come in and everything's great. You stop people eating chips and making people watch these times. Has ketchup been banned, is it? Do you know what I mean? All them sort of cliches. We've seen them winning every week. I think they want more of that. I really think they felt infused because there's a lot of very talented players there. But as we've said right throughout the summer, they still need to strengthen in a couple of positions because it's not just the league.

14:36You've got the Champions League as well. Just in terms of sales, before we move it on and go back to what Carrick's had to say today, Laurie, Ethan Williams leaving another sale that adds to the pot a little bit and obviously could add to it more in the future too. Yeah, I think, I hope I'm right in saying about£750 ,000, something like that so I think Peterborough called it a significant signing didn't they United didn't use those terms I suppose it's different perspectives on that kind of figure but still yeah it is a is a player that's obviously come through the United Academy and they've decided to sell now so the idea is you know it's a a virtuous circle but it does you know it goes into when you look at the sales that they've made you know Rasmus Hoyland's confirmed to Napoli then obviously you had Radit Vitek more recently and even Mason Greenwood's moved to Fenerbahce giving United a bit of a sell-on.

15:25I think it's something like 55 million in total, that is. And obviously they've only spent 85 million. So it's only 30 million net spend so far, which you're sort of thinking they've just got into the Champions League. I know there's big debt. Thank you very much, the Glazer family. But they're still in the Champions League. There must be some more there to play. And I think United are keeping the cards close to the chest. That's a point of criticism that lots of fans are caught with as well, that this is a repeating pattern no matter who's been in charge of the club. You get in the Champions League and suddenly the summer spend is not as high.

15:55And we'll see at the end of the window, won't we? Like whether this is genuinely not sure how much more we're going to do or whether actually we're kind of waiting so we feel like we can get the best value for the players that we want. And it's weird, isn't it, the fluctuating perception of things. You know, when Tielemans were signed, even when Santos was signed, you know, the fans were really happy because they were like, United are doing good business here. And I think Tielemans still people are thinking that's, you know, great business, 35 million. But then it flips to actually not spending enough, which again I think is a criticism that is fair but it does undulate this kind of feeling amongst supporters and I can understand why but yeah, it's kind of you feel like once you get in the Champions League it should be a case of right, now here we go foot to the floor and it's always felt a bit more like the car's stalling and I think that's guess what Carrick's getting at with him saying we need to push, we need to push, we need to push Yeah, it's the time to go and get Falcao, Di Maria etc, etc when you're in the Champions League No, when you're trying to get back in here, that's the point that people seem to come back to.

16:55How are they your reference points? Well, that's the one I always remember. The first time they missed out on the Champions League and it was a huge summer spend under Louis van Gaal and it was glamorous names and all that sort of stuff. It was that era of Manchester United. Right, let's go back to what Carrick's had to say because I think what he talked about in terms of the season's ambitions, Andy, was telling. He was pushed in several different ways by the journalists in the pack to try and say that Manchester United will be Premier League title contenders this season. Now, he stopped short, despite being asked.

17:27No, he didn't. Despite being asked that, apparently one of his players once said that they could be in the title race this year. We're yet to actually put our finger on exactly who that was and when, but someone has said it at some point. I found it. Lenny Yoro, but let's say that one. Yeah. Okay, nice one, Lenny. But then it was, well, can you do it? Yes, I'm talking about Manchester United. Do you agree with your players? And I thought, Gary, it was good on this, actually, Andy. He said, I think that this group has got the potential to do something really special. And he said he was encouraged by the fact that his players are happy to state their belief that they believe they can be in a Premier League title race, even this season.

18:03What do you think? You often see the players being a little bit more loose than the managers. And they say things like, and often you've got to remember that the young lads are talking in a second language in a lot of cases. And they say things like, I think we're going to try and win every game. We're going to go and win every game. we want to win every trophy and that can be Man United going for the quadruple this season it didn't quite mean it like that this group of players have shown that they can beat the best teams they have done so I don't feel that this team is going to win the league this year I hope I'm wrong and I'm a pretty glass half full type of person but under Michael Carrick that team was winning and winning and winning and now someone might say to me yeah but there was no European football and that is a valid point there's no cup football so we're going to see very quickly how Manchester United fare with the extra demands and you'd hope a stronger squad you would hope an improvement on the players who came in last year you would hope that Santa Lamans can reproduce the form of the first year that players don't get injured but players do get injured you know Manchester United have got a role with this and also get covering all those positions so you don't have a situation where a sovereign amr about is playing at left back and being targeted because that you Manchester United I think if they're playing against a top top team there is still a pretty significant difference I know the best team in the world played United on Saturday in PSG but it wasn't a strongest PSG team and also I think you've got to realise that United will have sticky moments, have always had sticky moments.

19:48Carrick's not really had one yet. Only team last season not to suffer back-to-back Premier League defeats, Manchester United. Do you remember when we lost against Leeds at Old Trafford how their mood slumped for like a week and he got loads of stick. This isn't the man, this is, you know, for one defeat there'll be times this year where Manchester United have a really awkward month. That always happened under Ferguson I hope it doesn't happen hope United win absolutely every game I love the enthusiasm of the of the younger players I've really liked seeing them come in people like Shea Lacey pre-season Thomas came on last night didn't he Thompson sorry who's just come in from Tottenham he looks all right I actually thought Toby Collier did well last night when when he was on but I don't think he's got a future at Manchester United and Carrick's getting to the point now okay who's going to be in the starting 11 against Hull against Ipswich you need wins you know you need to win those first two games with respect to the opponents they've both been promoted that could be an ideal start for Manchester United and if it's not that's when the pressure will increase again even with the transfer window still being open but sticking to what we know it's been a good pre-season you've got a very calm confident manager who's pretty excited and I believe him do you Laurie about his players.

21:10Yeah, and we'll touch maybe a bit on Koui Mainu, but the kind of way that he speaks about his own experiences with these players, you know, he's been in touch with Rashford, he's been in touch with Mainu, I think has that authenticity to him that they believe in. And then he can also understand where they're being real with him. And so, yeah, it seemed genuine, the kind of affection that he's got for his players. And it's shown on the pitch, isn't it? You can see some of the move. I know it's not perfect, but some of the football has been really nice. yeah and I've sat in pre-season um where the managers you just get a sense you don't want to be here or the mood is is really bad even um I remember being in San Diego a couple of years ago and thinking it's not fitting together here remember 2018 in LA with Jose Mourinho like this is really awkward this is horrible and of course it blows up a couple of months later I'm not getting any sense of that whatsoever.

22:04I think Carrick's got like this invisible shield, which works really well when you're a Man United manager. He just ignores all the noise. He's always in this zone, and yet he knows, got a good understanding of his players. He knows who the leaders are. He knows who the loudmouths are. He knows who the best singers are. And he can have a bit of a crack with him. And his coaches as well. You know, he's been playing golf with his coaches. Beautiful golf course, apparently, from people I know who play golf. And I think it's all right, but would I like to see a couple more players? Yeah. Do I think they'll come?

22:40Yeah. Can I say who they are? No. Can I say how much they're going to cost? Yeah, I've got an exact amount here. £72.50, based on your previous figure.

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24:42The question is, how is he going to do this? How is he going to build on the positivity? How is he going to keep pushing? How is he going to ensure that United can continue to win games like they were doing last season in the Premier League? and the question of how United develop their style under Carrick obviously was a big part of the conversation earlier and here's a section of Michael Carrick answering questions from Laurie about exactly that. How much has your playing days shaped what you are as a coach and imagine what you want? Because obviously you and the scholars in midfield dictate the play, keep hold of possession.

25:13What would you like your midfielder in your mind to be like right now? Because a lot of people look at it and go, needs a runner, needs a leg, needs athleticism potentially. But what's your view on that? Yeah, I think just naturally we all see the game for certain things. Just being a midfielder, that's kind of how I've seen a game. In some ways it helps because you're kind of connected to all parts of the team over time. I'm not saying you have to be a midfielder to be a good coach, but I think it's just how my kind of reference points are in some ways, you know, and what kind of football I think the supporters want to see as well.

25:45Hopefully that fits together. and naturally midfield is a big part of the teams that I've coached and been part of because that's just naturally how I see it again. You need strengthening there still? I know you've made two signings. It feels like quite a significant part of the pitch to strengthen. What are your thoughts? I think we always want to strengthen in every way. So it depends on is it going to make us better and is it going to help us and what way is it going to help us and not for the sake of it. it can't be for the sake of it. But yeah, of course, we want to improve. We need to improve.

26:21I have to say, Carl, Uri, Andre, the freedom. Exactly what we hope Andre, for such a young man, to come in the way he came in. His character, his personality is a dream. Literally, he's a dream. He's so positive. He's so mature. He's so switched on. He wants to learn. He comes in straight away and he's trying to help other players and talk in games and communicate in games and has that personality where he's got a real substance to him and delighted to have him. And Uri's a little bit more obvious probably because we've seen an awful lot of him and we all know him. But again, the character, the personality, the presence and the quality on top.

27:01But being a team player and understanding that and connecting everyone together, I think it's important we got that right. The two midfielders in particular, I think, have given us an awful lot and will give us an awful lot moving forward. Andy, from listening to Michael there, obviously having spoken to him as well and what you've seen in pre-season to this point, how do you think United's style will change from last season to this season? I think he'll adapt it. And I think a criticism of Ruben Amorim is that he wasn't pragmatic, he wasn't adaptable. And I think Michael is. And I think he knows he's got attacking players who collectively have got potential to damage any opponents.

27:46And yet I'd still like to see another striker. But the players around him, there's a lot of talent there. If he can somehow get the best out of Marcus Rashford, that could be a real asset for Manchester United. But I realise, as I say, that a lot of Manchester United fans feel very, very conflicted about that. I think Ahmad's a cracking player. He tailed off a lot last season, but one of the most exciting players. So I think he's got belief. and I think the players are having the manager and I've not always felt that with players and now any player who's not getting a game regularly is not going to be having the manager as much but I think Michael, I don't think he has a huge ego I think he, he's once said to me I'm a Manchester United fan my family are Manchester United fans so I was like, is that not a problem because you're a Geordie he's like, no, they've grown up here but Manchester United fans he was going to games before he got the job He's a season ticket holder.

28:41So he's in this because it's coming from the right place. You're not going to be seeing him angling to move on to another club or to get another contract because he's quite happy living in Manchester and obviously delighted to be Manchester United manager. And I think he's like any manager. You're always looking to strengthen your team. You always want more players. Sometimes it's quite an awkward balance. You're only going to Solskjaer. Would you like Cristiano Ronaldo, Ole? yeah why not would you like this big you know beautiful suite but that can bring problems i think michael's much more much more measured um in terms of the players that he deals with and i also i also think he's got good coaches around him not to say that others haven't had good coaches with him the more i hear about steve holland for example as a coach the more i i'm impressed by him but i'm saying this on the wave of pre-season optimism even discounting that people want more signings, the mood can change pretty quickly.

29:40You know, if you lose those opening two games, everything that I'd said here would be absolutely rubbish. So the key is not to lose those opening two games. Words will only take you so much. Wins are what matter. And Michael Carrick wins football matches. He does. The record's brilliant. So far, so good on that count. Yeah. How do you think he'll develop it, Laurie? Well, I mean, whilst I was listening to that, I was thinking, I actually spoke to Paul Scholes last week whilst he was at Salford for a different piece. I probably should have said to him then, actually, what was it like playing alongside Michael Carrick and what do you think about United's team?

30:14So anyway, just strike that one down for a future question, maybe if I get the chance, yeah. I just think that what he's sort of getting at here is the understanding. So he was talking in his answer about being a midfielder as a player and how that position on the pitch allows you to see how things are connected. And so I think he's trying to then put that into his team and making sure that players do connect with each other. and when they run, they know where their other teammates are going to be and the passing sequences that you need. And okay, it's kind of all great and brilliant to say, you know, here on a podcast or in a press conference or written down on a whiteboard, but then actually doing it in a game is a different matter.

30:50And I do think we've seen glimpses of that. You know, Tielemann's, you know, he's going to start, isn't he, against Hull? Like he's come in and he just looks so seamless in the way that he understands where his teammates are, quick passes, passes forward. He's obviously got vision and he scans. but you know as Andy's touched on there him coming on with Bruno Fernandes I mean Bruno Fernandes got an absolutely enormous roar at Croke Park it was deafening it was always like United scored and then he came on like it was a World Cup match he was running around all over the pitch he was sort of shouting instructions to his teammates and having him alongside Telemans you can sort of see what Carrick's getting at in terms of if you've got two great ball players passing through the lines there and even Andres Santos he does that as well so if you've got these players that's what Carrick used to do himself as a player you know I saw recently there's a clip going around online isn't there about him speaking about how he likes to get the ball close to him, touch it with his first touch close to him, and then release the pass quickly rather than get it out of his feet and then stride and it gives the opposition a moment to adjust.

31:45Do it quicker like that so they can't adjust. And it feels to me like we're seeing some of the signs of that in United's midfield. As I say, it's obviously a work in progress still. There's obviously additions that need to come to give it that edge, but I feel like the fundamentals which he's trying to get at are there and it'll be really interesting if they can continue that into competitive matches. Right, let's talk about a couple of other key points in what Michael Carrick had to say, Laurie, as well. Marcus Rashford, Kobe Manu. Rashford, he's our player. It's quite exciting to have him back in the squad.

32:17He wouldn't criticise Thomas Tuchel for not using Manu during the World Cup, but he did say he's ready for a big season. Again, very positive on both of these two. Yeah, I thought the Manu stuff was really interesting because he's obviously seen what was happening at the World Cup and he referenced his own World Cup experiences which I didn't really appreciate until he mentioned it and I went and looked and he went to the 2006 World Cup played one game went to the 2010 World Cup didn't play a single minute just like Mainu so he could call Mainu so he spoke to him and was able to sort of say try and take the positives from it but he could also understand why as a player you'd be frustrated in that situation he's obviously way ahead of millions of people by being at a World Cup in terms of Kobe Mainu but he's got standards that he wants to play at these events he feels like he can make an impact and so I think Carrick was understanding from his own experiences how frustrating that can be and then having that call with him getting him back into a headspace where he's coming back to United coming back home he said he feels like he's in really good spirits maybe to prove a few points he didn't want to get into the two-call dynamic but interesting nonetheless that he sort of feels like he's got the bit between his teeth I would say and just that communication touching on what I said earlier that I think players can then respond really well to if he's anticipated that and noticed that and made that communication.

33:32And yeah, similar with Rashford, what a fascinating point we're at now where, you know, okay, he didn't confirm. Fans are not quite sold yet, are they? Yeah. As much as Carrick anyway. Right, yeah. Which is maybe why he's not going fully into he is staying. He's not confirmed that 100 % publicly, but the way he's talking really does give that indication. And we saw Rashford in the mix zone last night signing stuff for fans, you know, with a smile on his face. He was laughing when Harry Maguire interrupted Dermot Mee's post-match interview with a certain Mr. Andrew Mitton to sort of, you know, mock the fact that he was, you know, saved one penalty and now he was giving interviews out.

34:09But, you know, Mee, I thought was a really sweet interview, actually with his Irish heritage as well. But Rashford being a part of that, you know, looking like he is connected. He was speaking to Manu on the pitch at the sidelines. He was speaking to Lisandro Martinez on the touchline. So, yeah, will he stay? That feels like that's the way it's heading now. and certainly Carrick speaking on those terms only gives emphasis to that. Okay, well if you want to know more about what Michael Carrick had to say in that interview earlier, Laurie's piece is up on The Athletic right now so go and have a look at that.

34:39Before we go any further and talk about the pre-season friendly against Leeds, we heard the very sad news today that a well-respected, much-loved Manchester United fan Darren Webby, as people knew him, had passed away. He seemed to know everyone, to be honest. He had a link right across the Manchester United fan base. You'll probably know him from the YouTube channel, Webby and O 'Neill, which he did with Tony O 'Neill. He's been a contributor to full-time Devils and Stratford Paddock and other places down the years as well. Very sad news that he's passed away and a loss to the club, really, and the whole culture around it, Andy.

35:13Yeah, it is really sad when I heard that this morning. And as I said, I was with Andy Cole and he was really sad hearing that because Webby's done security for him over the years. So Darren Webb used to work for Manchester United, I'm going back 25, 30 years, as security. And he's a Manchester lad. He's really well known. And that's why you've seen the outpouring of affection for him on social media. Big red, trusted by a lot of people. He was really well connected. And if you ask, if you name 20 players who played for Manchester United in the last 20 years, they would all know him. and they would trust him but not just footballers I saw that one of the tributes came from Tim Burgess of the Charlatans so last year I went to see the Charlatans and Webby was the man who sorted it all out because that's what he does and I think with his illness he even kept that that quite private I think some Manchester United fans knew Gary Neville to be fair to him has always been very good with Webby as a young age I think Manchester's lost a really good person and I think Manchester United fan match community has as well and I think that's really important Ian not everything happens online this is the real world this is this is matches this is um someone you could talk to someone who's there you know used to knock around um hotel football and once you've been able to decipher his Manchester accent you could have a conversation with him the lovely lad there you sort of look at and think he's a tough lad but I think he's like a really sort of compassionate human and I think it's knocked a lot of people for six rest in peace Webby you're a top lad and it was a it was a privilege and a pleasure to know you and we will dedicate the next edition of United we stand to you yeah amen to that Andy and obviously our thoughts are with everyone who knew him and and loved loved Webby as well okay let's talk about Leeds if we can then I mean it was a pretty historic occasion Laurie being at Croke Park Manchester United against Leeds United and pre-season friendly on prime time domestic UK television is a bit of a moment in some ways it was a complete sell out as well what was your takeaway from the occasion the game everything in between I've just loved being here we always love Dublin don't we we've been here a few times with the live shows and you know the excitement in the city was pronounced throughout the day the sun was shining I think that played a big part you saw red shirts It's absolutely everywhere.

37:44I got the ferry over. Thank you, Andy. They did have Wi-Fi. There was actually quite a lot of Leeds fans on that ferry as well, to confirm your fears, perhaps your expectations. But when it was in Dublin, it was mainly red and in the stadium as well. And actually, I got collared by a lad who listened to the pod in a bar last night to say, tell Andy it was way more red than Leeds fans in Dublin. So there you go. But yeah, I just thought then it gets that, I mean, the Croke Park Water Stadium. I saw Randy outside, Italy and United where he's standing with a nice little picture and you know I just think everyone was positive around it you know United coming to Ireland and then you know obviously they have to then perform and do stuff on the pitch but I thought the game was pretty good quality obviously sort of defensive laps really for Leeds equaliser but you had Mbumo looking pretty good you had Ahmad looking good Zerks even was knitting things together quite nicely some really nice touches so yeah and it all ended with a kind of Keystone Cops kind of sequence of pitch invasions where Bruno Fernandes sort of humoured the first one and at least his kids coming on to get pictures with their stars.

38:48But he kind of kept on and on and on. And then I think in the end, the ref just went, right, let's just call it here. Let's get to penalties a little bit earlier. But yeah, it was quite funny to observe. But all in all, I think United should come pretty regularly to Ireland, if not Dublin every time. But I thought, yeah, historic moments have it at Croke Park. Felt very special to be there witnessing it. Were you able to watch the game, Andy, or were you just looking at the different pieces of architecture in the place? I love a new stadium and I loved Croke Park. It's one of the biggest stadium in Europe.

39:1982 ,000 people completely packed out. Tickets on the black market going for a fortune for a pre-season friendly. Did someone really come up to you, Laurie, and say, tell Andy that there were more United fans than Leeds fans are? Apparently you'd said on the previous pod that Leeds might outnumber United. Was that exactly what you said? I can't really remember. No, context is everything here. So for facts, I would estimate last night there were 70 ,000 Manchester United fans in a crowd of 82 ,000. Can you estimate a fact? I go to court and go along with it. It becomes a fact. What I said was there will be more Leeds United fans traveling over.

40:02And I stand by that. And you'd be a good reference. Okay, fair, fair. Okay. And the reason I said this, and I said this to the former Leeds manager, Simon Grayson, who I met outside the ground yesterday, was because Leeds don't have European football. So you can put all your coins into your little Yorkshire piggy bank, and you can buy a ferry ticket to go to Dublin with you. And just because you got on your little ferry from Oliad, you think your filly is fog, don't you? Oh, I've got a three-hour ferry to Ireland. Look at me. I'm about to board. Look, look, I'm a ship. There's another ship. there's a seagull look I'm just about to arrive right I've done my 400 pictures now on my three hour ferry trip I'd echo a lot of what you said about the mood beautiful day really friendly atmosphere around the ground especially considering it was Manchester United Leeds United you certainly wouldn't get this in England there were people worried about trouble I walked through Temple Bar and all the other hot spots both nights didn't see any trouble whatsoever.

41:07Dublin was absolutely heaving, just like three quarters red. There was even a massive chunk of Manchester United fans within the Leeds section, which was just rather wonderful. And Leeds often boast about how they would have taken more if they would have got more tickets. And it's a bit of a joke among smaller clubs. Yeah, but Leeds would have taken more. But when it came down to it, the fact is, and it is a fact, Manchester United had 70 ,000 fans inside Croke Park and Leeds had 12 ,000 fans so there you go go back there I'm so happy that that provoked such a response from you it's all true though mate that's the thing I only deal it through it was brilliant the football was good some happened with an eclipse the only eclipse I saw was Manchester United support completely eclipsing the Leeds United support there we go very good and you didn't need glasses to see that either did you no yeah absolutely not

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44:35let's talk about the football Bruno is the star mate when he comes on Manchester United look like a significantly have a significantly bigger goal threat he's banging the ball against the woodwork he's doing things that no one else on that field can do it finished one all I thought Manchester United were the superior team and glad that they won this major trophy on penalties great to have Bruno back and I'm just seeing pretty encouraging things all over and yet because it's pre-season you can tell that because you have little lulls in the game where they sort of switch off for 15 minutes it's happened in every game so far apart from the Trondheim one where it was a 5-0 Senna Lamans was back as well and me the goalkeeper spoke to him after the game I hit him with a really odd first question Of course you did.

45:28I've seen you play for Trafford FC, which he used to. And he just went, that was a long time ago. No, it wasn't, mate. It was five years and two months ago. But what do you do when you're a training goalkeeper? So he ends up saving a penalty. He has a good game. I find the whole thing weird. You're a training goalkeeper. That's your job. But you don't actually play any matches. And as Laurie said, Harry Maguire came in from behind him. And he goes, saved a penalty, have we? Which I thought was funny. But articulate young man. And nice when players like that have the moment in the sun, if the sun was there last night, I'm not sure.

46:05It got eclipsed, didn't it? We all saw that, I think. Anyway, Joshua Zerkesi, he was my standout from last night, Laurie, because there is so much doubt about what happens with him moving forward. But I thought he was excellent. And if you can use him in that way, and if he can play like that and have that sort of impact, maybe it helps that the intensity is a bit lower, there's still that question mark over him when it's really, you know, hell for leather in the Premier League. Certainly coming off the bench at times last season, there was question marks over exactly how he could get up to speed with games straight away.

46:40But there's still something in there, isn't there? He's a quality player. You know, he's touched on the ball, his speed of thought. You know, he's obviously got plenty to offer. Great finish as well. Well, he'd obviously gone close, hadn't he? Just before that with a lovely move, by the way. you know when I talk about you know the moves that United were playing I think it was you know Tyler Fletcher was involved with the ball out to Dallow but it was also Aidan Heaven and Harry Amas and Zerksi involved in the build up actually to that as well and then he gets on the end of it first time shot that James Stafford said James Stafford was pretty good actually it would have been a win for United but for him in normal time so yeah but as you say the uncertainty comes from the fact he's had two scenes at United and hasn't pulled up any trees really like there's been moments maybe you know that who can forget that goal away at Real Sociedad when I started trying to get a Xerxes chant going, not in the press box I hasten to add, but obviously then he becomes one of these potentially saleable assets, right, in the summer because they didn't spend loads of money on him, you know, 40 million, something like that as a buyout, but what would you get now for him?

47:39So, you know, Juventus have shown interest and I believe that there's a possibility of a loan with an obligation. I'd be very surprised if United entered into a loan with an option again. It's got to be an obligation, hasn't it? Yeah, what's the point otherwise? Yeah. but yeah I agree with you it's like well actually if you take him out of the team if you've got somebody that comes in that isn't actually better than him what's the point of doing that deal let's have him still around and his skill is he was kind of the number 10 really wasn't he last night and Buma was up top although out of possession it was kind of like a 4-2-4 but like when they played City in the FA Cup final and it looked pretty good actually they were sharp Dorgo and Ahmad on the wings to try and jump to press but if he can drop Xerxes then you've got runners in behind in Ahmad and Dorgou that kind of is what he was bought for originally that was the sort of idea I think behind it so yeah.

48:31Do you remember that statement win over Everton when he played in that role and he had runners around him including Marcus Rashford actually yeah scorers and everybody involved in that game yeah exactly so can that be replicated and I suppose this is where you're looking at Carrick going okay if you manage to turn that into a situation that is to the benefit of United and as we know as we say we don't know if he's going to still be at the club beyond the end of the transfer window but that's the sign of a true coach isn't it working with what you've already got finding ways that they can link with their teammates in a better way and then getting results from it it's an interesting topic to look at yeah I agree with you I thought it was really good last night What do you think Andy?

49:08I think with Xerxes it's been decided I can't see him having a future at Manchester United I think he's trained well I think he plays well in moments. Remember Leeds away, he came on and he was really good. But I don't think we've seen enough from someone who cost an awful lot of money. Very popular among his teammates. But there have been several suitors from Italy. I think it's just about who finds an agreement with Manchester United. And that's my reading of the situation. I might be wrong, but that is how I read it. I think he's had his chances and a couple of moments, but how would you mark Joshua Zerksy after two years at Manchester United, really?

49:58Is he getting any more than six out of ten? No, and that's the point, isn't it? It's not about a pre-season performance against Leeds as promising again as it looked. It's more about the serious question of his output, isn't it, across that time? Do you think United have got enough then if he did leave to have Mbumo, Cunha, Rashford maybe filling in as a number nine if Sesco... Because the other thing is we've not even seen Sesco yet, have we? And the shin injury is a lot more complicated than it first appeared. Yeah, the Sesco one has sort of gone on longer than I anticipated, although I'm told he's now on the grass with teammates for a couple of sessions, I think.

50:38So I think maybe Saturday comes too soon. It was interesting actually that Carrick confirmed in our sit-down that Maynard would feature on Saturday against Ruben Amarin's AC Milan. Imagine Rashford and Maynard. Did he confirm that Maynard... Oh, that is great, isn't it? He said, you know, looking forward to him featuring kind of on Saturday. So, I mean, you know, we'll see if that comes to pass. Does he know what he's doing by mentioning that? Or is that just a... It was slipped in it. It was only on sort of rereading it. I was like, oh, he's actually sort of, yeah, I said he's there for that one.

51:05But I mean, they were there. Obviously, they've been in Dublin, they've been around it. So it'd be weird if they didn't then play against AC Milan at all, right? And I think a lot of the academy players that got minutes, Carrick was saying that was to expose them and whatever their experiences from that would be good because it's either a learning curve or it's a bit of a boost. You figure out whether they're good enough to cut it. But yeah, Sesco, so maybe AC Milan comes too soon, but I think Hull, it'd be strange, wouldn't it, to go straight into a matchday squad from not playing any pre-season games.

51:31But I think that's the expectation or at least the hope that he can start getting involved in match days for the Premier League season to start. But I agree with you. Then, you know, Mboumo, he's got to be a guy to start up top, hasn't he? And I think he showed, you know, against Leeds, he showed really not all pre-season that he's got, I mean, that burst of pace down the wing, nutmegs one player, then nutmegs another player with a pass. You know, it was sharp play. It was good. Hits the bar with another chance. So yeah, he's looking okay in Mboumo. I thought he scuffed the assist for Xerxes, but let's move it on because we're running out of time.

52:04Last point, Manchester United versus, Ruben Amerin's AC Milan at the weekend Andy fascinating isn't it? Yeah it is and I can see some Milan fans getting a little bit agitated about life already under Ruben Amerin I think it's good that United are playing in Poland I think the Polish football support is fanatical I'm not sure what type of people will turn up at the stadium another good test for United against Milan it's the last game because we're not having a game at Old Trafford this year which is unusual and that's because the pitchers needed time to bed in after having its most serious works in 13 years I think so that was the reason for that I know quite a few Manchester United fans are excited about going over to Poland I'm glad it's happening do you know why I wrote in March that United were going to play Milan in Poland and we published it on The Athletic and then it wasn't confirmed for like two months and I had people on my case going, I booked a flight here, Andy.

53:09So did you take a flyer then, Andy? Did you sort of play fast and loose with these facts that you love so much? Because I was only dealing in facts, I said that Manchester United will play AC Milan in Poland, but it wasn't confirmed. And I'm getting people like, my flights were 278 quid, mate. You better reimburse me. You would have seen a very relieved man when that game was confirmed. and I started putting stuff do not book anything until it's absolutely confirmed but I was right because I'm a newshound away we go you sniffed it out certainly right Andy I'll let you go because I know you've got an event tonight with Andy Cole best of luck with that in Noori hope you all enjoy it thank you we've tried to squeeze this in basically between Michael Carrick doing his interview Laurie writing his piece up for it Andy travelling to the next hotel and obviously the event tonight so Andy I'll let you go thank you for being with us Laurie I'll keep you just for a couple more if that's alright thank you Have a good show Andy See you later mate I just want to ask a couple more about Ruben Amarin Laurie if we can because we've been previewing the fact that we'll talk more about it when we get to the AC Milan game and so much has been going on that we haven't really spent much time reflecting on him going back into management at AC Milan some of the quotes around saying he made mistakes at United and it's interesting Andy saying there that you're beginning to see it's only online because I've not been in Milan recently and spoke to fans no but you are beginning to see some of the familiar complaints and issues and concerns that he had in Manchester, actually.

54:43Well, did you see the word suffer? I don't know. I thought that was what you were going to go to, actually. So I think that has brought out some fans in cold sweat. A triggering. Yes, yes. Glad that there's no more suffering. I'm trying to think back now. I don't think Michael Carrick mentioned the word suffer at any point. so yeah let's see if United can make AC Milan suffer some more you know and it'd be really fascinating I don't actually know so Michael Carrick hasn't been doing you know post-match press conferences or anything like that I don't know if Ruben Amarin will be doing so but obviously it'd be you know great to ask him a few questions knowing Amarin's attitude towards media duties at United and it was weird in a way because if you get in front of him and ask him a question he won't be able to resist really there is that there is that I suppose if he walks through a mix zone or something but he hated the fact that he had to do contractually so many different interviews when he was at United, especially when it wasn't going well and he had to keep answering repeatedly the same concerns and criticisms too.

55:42But yeah, I mean, obviously he was asked about United when he was appointed as AC Milan manager and that was the first time we'd even heard from him after leaving United, which I think left a bit of a bad taste in people's mouths actually. And to say that he didn't have the opportunity to thank fans well he could have taken it couldn't he? Yeah yeah you can release a statement anytime you like obviously you know yeah you can read into that in any way you want I suppose you know but at the same time it's an interesting point that he's now got a job at AC Milan like it's a you know big club I know Serie A's not what it used to be and maybe it never will return to those days you know when Italian football felt so powerful when I was growing up you know United and Juventus tussling into Milan AC Milan you know so you know great historical club Roma So you're thinking of the 7-1, aren't you?

56:31Straight up, yeah. So I just think that that is a significant moment. So obviously his brand wasn't damaged too much really by sticking to his beliefs, you know, and another team has gone, well, okay, it didn't work there because, you know, they weren't capable of doing what he wanted. So actually it might work for us. And that's interesting. I think he has stuck to that, you know, back three system, A-Simland from, you know, what I can see on FopMob and things like that. But losing 3-0 to Chelsea, you know, pretty significant I mean but again what is pre-season let's see when the real action starts but I think it's perhaps just an interesting point to reflect on that him sticking by what he wanted when it was that kind of crunch moment of does he adapt does he not he didn't really and he's still got another job but a big European powerhouse so I think that's interesting and maybe that's that's why you get these managers that are very you know principled and sort of kind of rigid to their ideology because they're thinking maybe at times about the next job already.

57:29So yeah, it'd be great. There's so many subplots, aren't there, to this game. It's just a friendly, it's just, you know, friendly in Poland, thank goodness for Andy. But nonetheless, there's plenty to get out. I'm really excited to actually be there. I'm quite, you know, eager for it. Yeah, particularly if Kobi Mayne, who starts the game as well. Even Marcus Rastrad, I suppose, is to a lesser extent or less likely to feature as prominently, perhaps. But yeah, what sort of reception do you expect him to get from fans who have travelled to the game? Neutral, to be honest. They're definitely not going to sing his name.

58:04There might be a smattering of applause. I mean, how many will travel? How many will be based in Poland? You'd get, you know, the most people will be from Poland, right? So, I mean, yeah, I just think it would be sort of polite applause probably. You know, he obviously wasn't, he was trying his best. It was just that he then dug in for what he believed and maybe United should have actually known what they were getting themselves in for when they hired him. So, I mean, yeah, obviously the executives will be over there. That'd be fascinating. It was such an explosive exit, wasn't it, from Amarin that, you know, I'm kind of intrigued.

58:34Do they sort of, you know, say hello to each other or do they kind of just keep the distance a little bit? I mean, it's kind of small talk really, isn't it? But yeah, I think it's, like I say, it's just interesting that he's got a big job having not compromised what he believed in. And let's see, maybe we'll see a brilliant visualisation of what he wants against United. And then the mood changes a little bit, you know what I mean? but I don't expect that because I think it feels like Carrick's got a steady working way to what he wants and he did make changes against Leeds you know there's a few unexpected people you know Shea Lacey not being involved at all Harry Maguire not being involved at all you know let's see Toby Collier being back in actually it would surprise me Toby Collier well yes I mean he obviously went to the under 21s didn't he with Altsringham and you know I believe you know exit on the cards loan permanent but he played well right you know so you know as we talk about Berserk I totally accept what Andy's saying about the expectation is that he leaves.

59:28I suppose you just don't know how these things work as the window progresses. Similarly with Harry Amas, if they perform well, and I think Collier came on, kept things tidy, intercepted the ball when he needed to, and actually was punching a few passes in. So if you're thinking, actually we'd rather spend the money we've got on a left back, I don't know how the end of the window will shape up. But yeah, I just thought it was a good performance from him. So it should be noted. Right. That's it then for Talk of the Devils for today. We're back next week. We're back on Monday, actually, with a bit of a season preview with obviously less than a week to go by then to the new Premier League season.

1:00:04We've also got our live stream, remember, as well, on Thursday. So if you haven't done already, get yourselves subscribed to our YouTube channel, get the notifications on as well so you know exactly when that's going to take place. But it's planned for Thursday, the 20th of August at noon UK time. So 12 noon UK time. We want your questions. We want you involved in it, of course. you can email them in devilspod at theathletic.com you can also get involved on the live chat on the day as well of course we'll take as many questions as we can across that stream we're looking forward to it but for the minute Laurie thank you Andy thank you for being on earlier as well and thanks for your company listening and watching along we'll see you on the next one take care bye bye

1:00:54Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Oh,

1:01:20boy.

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