What problems has Martinez exposed at Man United?

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1:50This is Talk of the Devils, the Athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. We're back again and coming up today, we reflect a little bit more on the fallout from Lissandro Martinez's Martinez's explosive interview after the defeat at Atletico Madrid. We've got updates on how the views were received, what the reaction might be, what his future holds at Old Trafford as well. And of course, we need to preview another huge game for Manchester United on Sunday at Ellum Road against Leeds United. Andy and Laurie are joining us. How are we doing? Never a dull moment, is there? The line last night, night before, whenever it was, when we did the podcast, wasn't great.

2:29So we didn't actually get even a chance to sign off from that. But the conversation just continued, Laurie. We could have done that all night. We could have gone over all the different aspects. So we're going to try and speak a little bit more about the different bits and bobs. You've written a couple of pieces about it. Martinez has now given a statement. Do you feel any differently to the other night? I suppose you just have more information. The immediacy of it all was, you know, we're trying to sort of compile our thoughts based on what we already know to be the case. And then obviously subsequently, you know, you speak to people, you find out what the reverberations have been.

3:03And yeah, just to kind of follow up from that night, you know, there's more messages that I got on the morning from different people, really involved, invested people that have seen this kind of thing before, you know, with Wayne Rooney or with Roy Keane, you know, sort of players of that kind of era that we sort of think, well, this is an unusual, this is a different status that Alejandro Martinez is speaking from and about in the current climate when Rooney and Keane were speaking after winning titles and what have you. It's a different context, isn't it, that Martinez has made his intervention, but nonetheless is very interesting and I think has support from other people within the dressing room.

3:41That's what we weren't quite sure about at the time. Now, whether the support then extends to, yes, go and say this publicly, I'm not sure. I think that probably him doing that caused some surprise amongst the dressing room. Yeah, I think that there's other people in there that feel the same way as him in terms of United's business in the summer. And also, perhaps in particular, in Jason Wilcox, given he was sort of singled out by Martinez, which is interesting. We can perhaps get into the reasons why as we talk on this. But yeah, certainly I'm getting a sense of there was other people that feel this way, as well as Martinez.

4:19But clearly the club will have to take some kind of action. They're back in today. They had a day off yesterday. So the matter is going to be addressed. Yeah, as we said on the pod, it feels like a fine is inevitable. Although United are still saying they'll weigh up the situation and approach it accordingly. Obviously, Martinez's statement on Instagram last night maybe is part of that process. But yeah, still a very live issue and still lots of questions as we go ahead in the days and weeks. Yeah, unquestionably. Let's talk about that statement then. Quite a long one that he posted on his stories on Instagram.

4:51I'm sure people have read it by now, but he basically clarified, I suppose, his post-match comments. There's no apology. He certainly doesn't back down. That's not his character, in fairness, from what we know about him. But he says in there, Andy, that he spoke out of anger and frustration. He said his words reflect how he feels, how much he wants to see the club competing for the biggest honours. The high standards are part of how I see football and responsibility that comes with wearing this shirt. When I talk about wanting more, I'm talking about the ambition we must all have as part of this club to keep growing, to become stronger and to have everything we need to compete at the highest level.

5:26I know that first and foremost, it's us, the players, who have to deliver. And I believe in my teammates, our manager and everyone working to help this club move forward. it will be music to a lot of fans ears like we reflected on the other night and the fact that he chose to be public in his criticism of how things have been going has certainly left far more of a mark than it would have been done privately are you surprised or is this what you expected of him that he would double down on it effectively i think he struck a chord with fans you can see that from the the comments that we've had on the athletic i wrote a piece yesterday on my way back from Madrid, writing from the heart before I spoke to anybody.

6:08And I think there's a deep frustration from a lot of fans, mainly because of the way that this season has started with recruitment. I feel that there's a touch of conciliation in that message as well, where he admits that he was emotional. But then I do think he's spoken how he truly feels and he's entitled to that opinion i also think there is some mitigation he does want a contract he's not got a contract yet to stay longer at manchester united his situation is not dissimilar to harry mcguire's a year ago he could speak to new clubs uh from january but i don't doubt that he is frustrated you talk to him about his personality yeah i've interviewed him in the past we've all interviewed him in the past it can be brilliant after the 24 cup final he struck another chord he was singing away on live television we've seen it all we've won the lot and that was one of the reasons which made him so popular popular not not a complete club legend you know you'd look at the people who've spoken out in the past Cristiano Ronaldo um Wayne Rooney Roy Keane Lissandro's not at that level but when he's playing well he's a fantastic player the problem is he's not played enough and that's one reason why he's not got a new contract offer but I think fans felt frustrated with recruitment anyway you felt like going into into the season it was it was underwhelming and I don't want to be harsh on any of the players who've come in I think they all deserve time to see if they can be a success at Manchester United but when United are linked to players like Chouameney like Lewis Hall like Elliot Anderson and all those links were genuine but none of them end up coming for various reasons some that are in United's plate and some which are not then it just leads to frustration and there's a lot of that around at the moment and when a player comes out and speaks openly as he did people feel that their frustration is validated because you've got an important experienced first team player coming out and saying how he feels and what he feels chimes with a lot of how fans feel yeah it certainly has there's no question about that just having a look at the reaction we had to our show the other night.

8:26And again, if you've not seen the show or listened to the show from post-game, we recorded it a couple of hours after the final whistle from the Atletico game and the interview that Martinez did, go back and have a look at that. There's a lot in there about our immediate reaction to what was said. Just from what Andy said there, Laurie, I mean, a couple of points. Probably in the show the other night, we maybe didn't explain fully that Martinez's statement that he wanted more from above and he expected more of the recruitment wasn't necessarily a criticism of the players who did come in it was more the fact that he believed that they needed more than those three midfielders that were bought um how exactly they interpret that is up to them obviously of course but I think that was the intention of what of what Lissandro was saying um but just within within it really I mean why do you think he did say it now do we have any idea of what his motivation is that has led him to the point of doing this interview because it felt like something he'd thought about and it certainly didn't seem completely off the cuff.

9:30It was from the first answer of the first interview that he did post-game. Yeah, well, a few things there. So I think he sort of touched on this in his statement. He says anger, doesn't he? So, you know, in the immediate aftermath of the game, they've lost 2-0. You've got his Argentina teammate there, Kuti Romero, who has made that move from Tottenham to Atletico. Well, he's the playbook, isn't he? because he was criticising the technical director about this time last season and got him a move to Atletico at the end of the campaign. Yeah, so is that part of the thought process for Martina's way?

10:01He's just thinking, listen, we understand, I've just done a piece with Mario, my colleague as well, and we understand that he would have said this kind of thing or he certainly thought these kind of things, whatever, you know, if he had five years left on his deal or one. But nonetheless, you know, is there some liberation to him? Because ultimately, if United do take the ultimate action and decide that he's not going to be at the club, certainly long term, his contract's up next summer, then at least he's going out, having said his piece and absolutely what he believes. I've no doubt that he will have discussed this with teammates in terms of the thought processes, what we're doing in terms of the recruitment.

10:38Players will chat about those kind of topics. Now, I do think that it would have still surprised people that he's gone and said it in a TV interview immediately after a game. I don't think that was kind of planned, but you can see, as you say, from that first answer, he knew he went into that interview with this in mind to say. And I think I have to give credit to Gabriel Clarke as Amazon for sort of identifying that immediately and kind of letting Martinez speak. He then sort of went to CBS, didn't he? And Peter Schmeich was almost trying to talk him out of it, it looked like at one point. And he kind of had to go back and say, no, no, this is what I believe.

11:15And so to your point, yes, I think clearly he had that idea in his mind that he wanted to express it in that moment. Yeah, I don't know exactly why now. I do genuinely think there's some emotion to him. I mean, Carrick said that, didn't he? Whilst you can be kind of calculated, you can kind of be pushed over that edge by the feelings that you have within you, having lost the game. You're in the Champions League. This is where you want to be. And that is part of his personality, right? He has, as we touched a little bit on the podcast, but then I kind of wrote a bit more fully in the piece after that, that he has at Carrington got a personality that is challenging.

11:52You know, he kind of pushes people both in training, both in terms of, you know, logistics for games, I suppose, different aspects around Carrington. So that edge, I think, is a quality that you do want in players in the right kind of way. Certainly Roy Keane would be very challenging to people, but he was doing it from a great position of strength, winning titles, absolutely setting the standards. Martinez has done that at United. His first season was brilliant for United, really. I think he was a key player until the injury that he suffered against Sevilla. That's why you're getting some pushback, I think, from maybe ex-pros.

12:32A lot of pushback from ex-pros, actually. It's interesting. And I don't think you can discount that. That's not coming from a place of, because I've heard it privately, you know, myself, people that were in the stressing room in years gone by saying, I'm not sure how I'd feel about that. Not only are you perhaps asking questions of the players that have come in, but also just generally. Now, I agree with you that I think that his point is about getting the best players, getting that strength of depth that you need to sustain challenges in the championship, in the Champions League. and so I think that's what his statement then clarified didn't he kind of made sure that his affection for his teammates and his head coach was there and his respect for them was there that was what he did clarify as you say he didn't apologize he didn't sort of back down on his wider concerns and I don't think he necessarily consulted anyone before putting that Instagram statement out I think that was a decision he made of his own accord but clearly they're going to have to get into this kind of discussion at Carrington today and we'll see what the outcome of it is you know Carrick speaks tomorrow doesn't he so um yeah it's all we're on to the next thing very quickly it's a it's a fast moving situation.

13:38Laura you've written the piece with Mario that you mentioned the headline is his future is in doubt at Old Trafford Lissandro Martinez how in doubt do you think it actually is? I guess we'll see after this meeting maybe and how the repercussions are felt and what people feel is the right reaction because yeah I have people saying to me they could easily, or they might decide, you know, this is the club, to take him out of the starting line-up and, you know, give Aidan Heaven a run, for example, you know, and show that kind of strength, so to speak, because ultimately this is a, he's kind of taking aim at ultimately the owner, isn't he?

14:18Jim Ratcliffe, the Glazers. Now, you know, the Glazers have kind of been more distant in terms of that kind of sanctioning previously when it's been the case. Although, obviously, Cristiano Ronaldo was very strong in his interview with Piers Morgan around the World Cup and that led to his contract being terminated mutually, didn't it? So, yeah. But then there's also the aspect of Jason Wilcox, how much influence does he have on this situation? Did the dialogue with Michael Carrick, is there an argument to take him out of the line-up anyway just to sort of take the heat out of the situation? I don't know, but I think ultimately...

14:51I don't think it will take the heat out of the situation. Yeah, probably not. But Ellen Rowe is the notoriously cool, atmosphere yeah um i mean i think that his future anyway was was going to be in doubt so to speak because he's you know he's out of contracts next summer yeah of course he's got but it's how in doubt it is after this isn't it as opposed to whether the pitch has changed or not because of him saying what he said yeah it feels difficult doesn't it to for him to still be at the club and for jason wilcox to still be at the club for example when he said these kind of things how does that really work together?

15:28For example, Jason Wilcox is at Carrington regularly. He watches training all the time. The idea is that he is the assistant to the head coach, understanding what issues are going on, taking them to the executive level. And obviously they all get around the table at some point as well, but he's there as the eyes and ears with that football background that he's got, which is something that United didn't really have perhaps prior. Although Darren Fletcher was in that role as a sort of technical director, but he hadn't had that kind of administrative experience, I suppose. to that point. Now, Jason Wilcox's experience is at Manchester City's Academy and then is at Southampton.

16:01And so he's now at Manchester United. It's a huge shift, really, from where he's been previously. But nonetheless, he still does have that sort of football acumen. And that's something that Sir Jim Ratcliffe feels like he has trust with him over. You know, there's certainly, I think he values his judgment on things. Now, that's not to say that then there aren't demands made of Wilcox, because clearly that's what Martinez is pointing at, right? If you're the director of football now, He was promoted from technical director a few months after Dan Ashworth left as sporting director. So your job really is to configure a squad that is absolutely the best it can possibly be.

16:36Also sort of negotiate some of the deals, I think, get involved in that. Although there's the director of negotiation, Matt Hargreaves, that gets involved on that score. But ultimately the spending is set by Ratcliffe and the Glazers. So there's an issue there in terms of, OK, how much money did United have to spend? that's something that's decided by Ratcliffe and the Glazers, then was it spent wisely? Were the right decisions made? And that's something you can certainly question somebody like Wilcox over because that is his job. And then also, I think it's a difficult environment, isn't it, football?

17:08You're going to have to show some strength at different moments. But certainly a picture that I've got is that Wilcox can be in some ways abrupt with players, shall we say. And I think if you've got a character like Martinez that is also quite a demonstrative person and is kind of asking for a new contract or suggesting, you know, what about my future at the club? And it isn't getting a kind of a warm hug of reaction. Then I can see how that then would, you know, perhaps lead to some conflicts. And that's maybe why it's brought him up specifically. And I don't think that's isolated to Martinez.

17:41I think, you know, you certainly have an approach from Wilcox that can be, you know, quite stern at times. So, yeah, it's a complex picture, I have to say that. I think there's different personalities at play here. Not everyone, it's not a homogenous group. You know, you do have different sort of opinions amidst it all. But I do think there is, it shines a light on Wilcox in particular and also the club recruitment generally, doesn't it? Because this is something that a lot of fans have been questioning. Could they have spent more money? The financial picture is very strained because of the Glazer debt.

18:13But at the same time, they did spend£63.5 million on some land for the stadium that is kind of, you know, is it going to happen? You know, obviously that's the driving force that Ratcliffe wants. But there's definite choices that were made, such as Andre Santos being brought in, such as Carlos Beliba being the third midfield signing, when it actually looks like he's probably the fit that they needed, you know, earlier on in the window. Uri Tielemann's release clause being triggered. They obviously went through Elliot Anderson, Sandro Tonali, Mateus Fernandes, Aurelien Chouameni, Alex Scott. They didn't entertain really the talks over that ultimately.

18:48So is that a failing of the club for not having the finance to go and muscle in on these deals? Or is that a failing of the individuals involved because they haven't done those deals correctly? And would that have then led to a situation where you've got a happier squad with these kind of players competing for minutes? There is loads to get into. And I know we're only kind of touching the surface here, really. Yeah, exactly. I suppose, Andy, just on the transfer business, because Laurie's right, it has shone a light on Jason Wilcox and the transfer window and the work that was done collectively as a hierarchy over the summer.

19:19Because it's very early in the season still, but United have won two out of their first nine games. So it's only natural that everyone will be asking questions, I would hope, of everyone inside the club and outside the club as well. And I suppose when you look back at the transfer business, this isn't complete revisionism because at the time, I think we were sort of praising some of the signings that were made in terms of midfield being an area that needed to be addressed. And the club did that. But when you look back on it now, if Andre Santos wasn't going to be used much in this initial period and wasn't going to have an immediate impact on the first team, was the money spent on him correct in that moment when there is centre-forward and left-back, which are two areas that we all thought still needed addressing back in the summer?

20:10You've got people like Harry Maguire, Luke Shaw and others saying that publicly as well, that the team needs more, not necessarily in those positions. But when you now sort of assess things a couple of months on, I think they're unlucky in a way that Luke Shaw is injured at the same time as Patrick Dorgou and Noose Masrawi. I don't think it's a surprise that Shaw's got a couple of niggles at the start of this season because we've seen how his career has been so far. But for that to be at the same time when Masraoui and Doga are also out, that obviously then really does highlight the weakness that there is at left-back.

20:46But there are three players missing. Up front, it's taken one injury to Benio and Sesco for things to feel a bit short. And it's an injury for Benio and Sesco that the club knew about at the end of last season. It's an injury that forced him to miss the entire pre-season whilst the transfer window was open. so if there is one aspect of the summer business that very quickly has seemed maybe a mistake it's centre forward isn't it and not getting more there when you look back some of the best united teams had four centre forwards and the current team has one and he's injured and that is a big blow and the injuries are a big blow but two wins out of nine frames all of this santos really interesting going into madrid you're thinking wait a minute they've spent 50 million quid off someone who started at Hull and that leads you to think why have they signed him I don't actually think he played that badly when he did play in Madrid but I'm right that I'm happy that Laurie touched on the Glazers as well because they're the main reason why Manchester United are handicapped going into any transfer dealings because the debt which Manchester United sit under It doesn't make United's business any easier.

21:55It makes it more difficult. And there was a budget going into this transfer window. And the players with the sign, they've gone for this model of forwards last season, midfielders this, but not got your main targets. That leads to more frustration. Defenders next, but then you've got injuries in defensive positions. Do you remember in May when I said, if Lissandro Martinez was to go to Atletico Madrid, for example, I didn't just pluck that out out of thin air i think united would have sold him and i think there was some interest from atletico madrid and instead they've gone for for christian rumero they would have sold him because he would have been one player you could have got good money for but there's also doubts not about his technical ability but about about his injuries so if you're alessandro martinez you're probably not feeling as secure as you might do uh at manchester united and that's a natural reaction I think any employee, if they feel, not just in football, that their work, their future work is in doubt, their future contract's in doubt, that's going to make you possibly react more to how he did the other night.

23:04But I think it's right to shine a light onto the recruitment area. And when recruitment goes well, people get praised for it. And when it goes badly, people get criticised for it. I still think it is very early to be dissecting the summer signings. I think they've been pretty underwhelming so far. Tielemans, Santos, Belaba's much newer to the game. I've been encouraged by what I've seen of him in the last couple of weeks. There were little bits the other night in Madrid where I'm thinking, okay, Belaba and Santos, that could work. But could work is nowhere near good enough when you've won two out of nine.

23:38This has been a really disappointing season for Manchester United. And there are injuries and there are decisions that go against Manchester United. And the one against Leni Oro the other night was harsh in Madrid. But it's still two wins out of nine and it's still Manchester United. And we're clutching at straws going, all right, well, we had a bit of a go at Madrid. I'm watching the team through my fingers far too often. It's just not good enough. So why is it not good enough? And I think everybody from the manager to the players to the people in charge of recruitment are part of that. and I think they know that as well.

24:14Football is a results business. You don't get the results and you're going to be criticised for that and I think that is fair and Michael Carrick needs wins more than anything and he's not getting wins and that leads to a build-up of just pure frustration and I also think that's legitimate. Two wins out of nine. I keep saying it. You know, what if that becomes four out of 18? Relegation form in the league. I don't think United are going to go down but I'm not going to be complacent with it either especially with the run of fixtures that we've got coming up all the time we've got Leeds which we'll talk about and then it's Como and if Manchester United are not winning these games and if they're losing these games the mood is just going to continue going down and down although it feels pretty close to the floor at the moment I don't know if it can go underneath no um there's a Mick McCarthy thing I could say right now but I'm not going to say it I think I'm sure everyone was saying it in their heads

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26:58Let's just have a look at some of your emails on this as well. So, Srinath, I think Lissandro was right to challenge the leadership. Someone has to. James, the irony of it all. Of course, if they were good at their jobs, someone like Martinez would have been cashed in on post-World Cup, but he is correct in all that he said, and it's about time the people behind the scenes were called out. Mersim, crazy interview from Lissandro, but I support every word. Christian Wilcox was supposed to come in and set style and philosophy. He's presided over three managers, appointing two himself, all with vastly different styles of play.

27:30Rob, why are people blaming Wilcox? He's been on me. He's been given a transfer budget and has to decide how best to spend it. Unfortunately, that budget doesn't appear to be sufficient to build a squad capable of competing at the highest level. So there's lots of different aspects on this. I suppose that the point I was going to say a moment ago, last summer, the club decided that they weren't going to spend money that they didn't have effectively. The summer before the credit facility, Laurie, which we've talked about so many times, was available to them and it was used in order to get some of the deals over the line.

28:05Certainly Benjamin Sesko as the final signing in the striker positions and then also Senna Lomans coming in as well. Money was borrowed to put those deals through. If the club don't want to do that moving forward, I think we can all understand why that is. There has to be a point where things level out again and getting back in the Champions League every season is the way to help that happen quicker. but the flip side of that is if you don't spend more money if you don't push and borrow more to get the players in that you need and this is where the balance is very difficult surely that makes they're not getting in the Champions League more likely which means then you have you'll have less budget again next summer and then if that's going to lead a manager to struggle again you're going to be in a position again where you're looking at how much is it to change managers how much is it to get someone new in in charge it's almost impossible but that's the decision and that's the line that they have to walk isn't it it's a cycle it's a kind of deflating cycle and that's obviously why Martinez has felt the build up over a few years now because I think I referenced didn't I this was a similar kind of feeling in 2023 when Eric Tenar could finish third and then you know they they went for Rasmus Hoyland Mason Mount and Andrejana rather than you know Harry Kane and Declan Rice and and you know again their clothes were cut accordingly the cloth was cut accordingly rather.

29:24And so Martinez was there for that. But Casemiro, for example, was one player that saw what happened and clearly that affected his mentality, I think, into the next season for having this idea that we can go and challenge now, seeing that it didn't and then kind of thinking, right, well, what am I doing there actually? Because that's what players feel like. And you are right, the money picture is kind of bleak at times, I think, for United. Losses year on year, seven years in a row now. That's partly due to the pandemic, but the glaze of debt, you have to mention it every time because the loaded debt, the interest payments make it from an operating profit to an overall loss.

30:04And then that also just inhibits what United can do. And now they're having to borrow money. They should have cash reserves, United. They had cash reserves in 2019, 300 million. And obviously they've dwindled because of the pandemic, but also because of bad recruitment, trying to keep pace with Man City, which we can touch on and whether that was all as it seemed. But even this summer, they've spent money in the revolving credit facility again. So it's like they're not, it's just going to be a continuous loop. Now that is all well and good. But if you're also at the same time saying, we're going to challenge for the title, we're going to go for it, then there's a gap there, isn't there?

30:42How can those two things be the case? And I think that's what Martinez is getting at, that don't kid us with saying that we're going to go for the title and this is the pressure, this is what we want. at the same time as being the fifth biggest wage bill in the country, maybe even lower, I don't know now. The redundancies, obviously, that have been going on around the club as well, which I think were understandable, but equally that then feeds into an atmosphere of things being tight and things being contracted, rather than expressing yourselves, having that strength to go and say, we are Manchester United, owning up to that brand and that name and that kind of reputation around the world.

31:16And it does, it comes from the Glazers, who have always been piecemeal. They've never invested their own money. You've got Sir Jim Ratcliffe there who also has put his own money in, but equally is also involved, I would say, in some of the decisions, in some of the kind of choices that are made. And both of those two people, well, three people in terms of Avram Joel and then Jim at the top of the club, sort of have to sign off in terms of what spending are we going to make? And there's certainly been circumstances, I would say, where they haven't gone for a player that they theoretically could have done financially.

31:48they've obviously made a decision to keep it more modest this summer and yeah, then that trickles down and I think that feeds into the atmosphere and the playing squad to think, okay, what we're doing here, what we're actually striving for, what we're aiming for and then you get these situations that Martinez is bringing light to with questions around the executives as well in terms of their abilities to do the job because it's felt like since the takeover you have Ratcliffe coming in with a big agenda for change. Everything that went before was no good. We're coming in with a totally clean slate, appointing people in positions.

32:26And they're going to also have people around them that they know and trust and they feel they can work with. And so they're in the club as well. Is that best in class? You can question that, I think. And so that's the kind of circumstance that we're at here where Martinez is then voicing his displeasure publicly. So Jim Ratcliffe in one of his non-controversial interviews he said there's a clear correlation in football between wages and success. Manchester United's wages consciously are going down so to expect the team to improve while the wages are going down while other clubs are playing a lot more is the tallest of orders.

33:02and yet there's an element of speculating to accumulate here. United need to be playing European football. Really, they need to be playing Champions League football to get the revenues, which if everything else is equal because of United's huge size, they can get back to that top table in terms of buying the best players again. Manchester United are missing out on European football and especially Champions League football. Then that just makes it even more difficult. Set against the backdrop of what Laurie said of best in class, I think the goodwill which was around when Ineos came in has completely dissipated now I think that has gone in this idea of winning the league next season people don't expect that to happen it might happen strange things happen in football but looking where we are now to the end of next season again seems the tallest of orders and that all adds into the frustration and it's genuine frustration and I think it's legitimate frustration.

33:53Yeah Carol's emailed in Nandy I think it's an interesting point to reflect on. He says, Michael Carrick, Jason Wilcox, Omar Barada. How is this club supposed to function when at every level, or at least those levels, we're just hoping someone can make a massive step up? And his point is that those three individuals are doing jobs at a level that they've not done before. So with Michael Carrick, yep, you can look at his body of work and say he's not the right man for one of the biggest football clubs in the world. You can also say that he did very well when he came in should he have got the managerial job full-time I thought he should have done given how well he'd come in I realize saying that now opens yourself up to people saying he was the wrong wrong choice and there's an inevitability where people are thinking this cycle just continues where you're sacking a manager and then you're being set back and you're paying a manager off I hope it can come good for Michael Carrick I'm baffled why a team that was so bad last season so good last season have become so bad this season i hope it is a blip i hope he can get it right with omar brado when he came in that appointment was celebrated by manchester united fans okay we've got the number two from manchester city commercially is this is he he's that now he will say that manchester united were losing money and financially they need to be righted and if you look at the last set of financial figures there is evidence slow evidence and partly because of unpopular things like ticket the way the ticketing has gone that Manchester United are moving forward towards a brighter financial future but again you need to be playing in European football to get that Jason Wilcox came in from Manchester City because Omar Barada brought him in from Manchester City Jim Ratcliffe has a very high opinion of him I don't think Manchester United fans have a high opinion of any of the senior executives at the moment i think the mood the trust from the fans in the club is really low at the moment i don't know how they repair that but i think it does need to be repaired and you have issues like like ticketing that lead to a dropping mood that lead to frustration combine that with with the results and you get the current mire that we're in um at the moment yeah and that's why i think as well lorry they have to be very careful about how they move this situation with Lissandro Martinez forward.

36:14We'll talk about the Leeds game in a moment. Whether he's going to be involved in that game or not obviously remains to be seen. The first clue maybe will be Carrick's press conference on Friday like you mentioned before. But you've got this huge swell of opinion behind Lissandro Martinez or at least what he said. So whether he's the right person to say it, whether that interview the other night was the right moment to say it, there is a lot of people who agree with the sentiment of what he was saying. and punishing someone saying that is a very tricky thing now, isn't it, for the club to be able to get right?

36:49Yes, yes, I agree with you. I mean, I suppose it depends how much do they care about what the fans are thinking on this subject. They need to listen though, don't they? How much weight. Yeah, yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. Listen, I would say so. I think the fans absolutely are the heartbeat of a football club, But then we've seen before how, you know, we saw the banner earlier this season, the way you treat it as a disgrace from, you know, the Red Army section, you know. So we've already seen this kind of split, you know, the fans getting moved from behind the dugout who'd been there for years and years, you know, to make way for people that were going to pay a lot more money for having one-off tickets.

37:29You know, ticket price rises generally when Ratcliffe sort of mentioned about, you know, Fulham shouldn't be more expensive than United and£66 got brought in. So there's various issues. And this is why then you have fans being so supportive of Martinez on this as well, because, you know, there's that already element of distrust there with the ownership. So, yeah, I think they should have some caution around it. But equally, they will probably look at it from their perspective and say, well, it's been a challenge to our authority. We do have to take action on this. Now, how much is Carrick involved in that?

38:04how much can, you know, in terms of him actually playing then on the pitch, it should be Carrick's decision, shouldn't it? But clearly there's going to be conversations around it, a hierarchy, I would say. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, listen, do you just go, fine, you know, take him out of the line-up for the lead, even though it's a huge game, it's a huge game, you know? Can Carrick afford that, you know, for his own position? And, but, you know, what's the longer-term plan there? So then you take him out for one game, bring him back, okay, job done. But does he have to apologise? Because Rooney apologised, didn't he?

38:40For example, he hasn't actually apologised for that Instagram post. So yeah, I think these are all still uncertain aspects to consider, to be honest, because I don't know what the right path would be. I don't know what they will do ultimately, but clearly it's something that is being talked about at all levels. Yeah, and clearly it's damaging Manchester United to have this conversation in public as well. As much as fans will get behind what Lissandro has said or elements of what he said, it has increased what's already a pretty strained situation for the club. And somehow, Andy, heading to Ellen Road on Sunday, everyone needs to bring it all together to get a result because that is actually the biggest issue right now that Manchester United need to get back to winning football matches again somehow amidst all of this.

39:29It's hard because he's thrown a grenade into it. And a lot of people welcome that, but it just causes massive internal strife. And out of that, you've got to pick a team which is going to get a result. One of the most hostile grounds in English football. From a footballing perspective, there's absolute merit in playing Lissandro Martinez. You can sort of see someone like him would thrive in that. The atmosphere is nearly as good as a game in Argentina. and he probably feels that he can be vindicated and you know this this is the way we do it and like equally he's got we don't know what Manchester United are going to do we don't know what Harry Maguire's situation is we don't know what Matthias De Ligt is he ready to come back so there are there are compelling footballing reasons to play him and yet sometimes a defiance can come out of it it's almost I'm not going to say clear the air because I don't think that has happened I still think there's a lot of anger lingering there's a lot of very different opinions you've seen that I think the fans are really with Lissandro Martinez you've seen footballers having a completely different opinion to that so there is mitigation here can Manchester United did he have the leaders there to go to Ellen Road and to thrive off that hostility and to be United the fans will certainly back the team at Ellen Road.

40:50They'll want to see some sort of defiance. Are there the leaders in that team to bring those players together with their differing viewpoints on what Lissandro Martinez has said and get a victory at a team who were unbeaten so far at home?

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43:03Yeah, they've been strong at home, Leeds. I've done a couple of the games. I mean, the first half against Newcastle, they were 3-0 up at half-time. They absolutely battered them. It's probably the most dominant first half I've seen from any team in the Premier League so far this season. That said, the results have been a little bit mixed. I think currently they're on a run of one from the last six competitions. There's been some difficult games in there, not least away at Arsenal last weekend, Laurie. But this is a tough test. I know it's a cliche and everything else. And Ellen Road's a hard place to go and whatever else.

43:34Whichever way you cut this, this is a huge test of this Manchester United team. Yeah, for sure. I mean, aside from all the rivalry that goes on with that, it will be a great atmosphere. And I could see where Andy was going with that. It's almost as good as an atmosphere in Argentine. They're not quite as wild, I suppose. But still, it'll be feverish. And they will sense blood, won't they, Leeds? They're fans. They will at Carrick, at the situation. Yeah, they did play really well at Arsenal. I watched that game. They created chances. They obviously went 1-0 up. Could have been 2, to be honest.

44:09Arsenal came back, made some subs. So having that strength on the bench can certainly help. And I guess that's Martinez's point. and so but there's also been people that have said to me actually just on that selection of Martinez that you know he up against Solanke Solanke obviously you know bullied him physically in that game or he kind of got distracted didn't he going for him rather than going for the ball in that last moment Calvert-Lewin you know is equally probably more so physical does it actually warrant Aiden Heaven coming in anyway to kind of have that you know he's 6 '2 kind of have that sort of capacity to go physical with Calvert-Lewin and then you've got Maguire as well hopefully I think he's fine, isn't he?

44:46Came on against Atletico. You're going more physical, more robust up against Calvert-Lewin. That would be an intriguing tactical choice anyway, regardless of what kind of Martinez had said. But yeah, it feels like a huge test. I mean, this is the kind of thing that Carrick thrived in as a player, I would say. You know, being cool in difficult moments and in places that are notoriously difficult to play in that kind of way. Yeah, it's a huge game though. I mean, I can't really call. They don't score that many goals, though, Leeds, do they? So that's the only other thing I would say, that, yeah, they do kind of create change.

45:21I know they blitz Newcastle, but I think, is it one goal they've scored in each of the other matches? Tops, you know, and a couple of clean sheets, a couple of blanks as well. So, yeah, I mean, maybe United, if they can nick a goal and just kind of keep it tight, although how often have they kept it tight? Yeah, not very often. That's part of the issue as well, isn't it, really? They're abrasive. That's what they are. I mean, they look like a seasoned Premier League team up against Newcastle with all the changes they'd made over the summer and the new players. They're a very tall physical side.

45:53They're sort of everything that the Leeds crowd want them to be and there's a real connection between the group and the support at the moment. I interviewed Noah Okafor last week. Basically, he embodies what Leeds United fans think of Manchester United. He's had a decent start to his Leeds career last season, but scores through at Old Trafford and will basically be in folklore with Leeds United's fans forever. They're still celebrating Jermaine Beckford, who scored the winner in the FA Cup third round at Old Trafford a decade or so ago. Unless he does something terrible like join Manchester United, I think he'll be a hero forever for them.

46:28Because it was the first time that win in, what was it, 45 years, I think, since Leeds won away at Manchester United in the league. So they'll be up for it, Andy. There's a sense of occasion, definitely. so what does Michael Carrick do I mean do you start Lissandro Martinez do you take him out what do you do with the rest of the team because there was a bit of a framework maybe to work towards in that Atletico game with the changes in midfield in particular yeah so look at the defence first so Harry Maguire has played all 90 minutes of every Premier League game he knows about that Leeds rivalry one of his best mates is a Leeds fan he should be telling them now this is what people from Leeds are like this is why they are bad and we are good this is why Leeds United are a force for evil we are a force for good Lissandro Martinez has played 90 minutes of every game after being on the bench at Hull so those those two have actually been settled so I think you point about what happens in front of them is the right one does Belaber get a start does Santos get a start yeah you know it's it's Tielemans I'm under I don't I think he's a good player but I think we've needed to see a lot more from him and we also need to see a lot more from our best players Bruno Fernandes I know he played out of position the other night I know he improved in the second half as he did against Tottenham Hotspur but you're allowed to play well in the first half as well so we can touch and we can criticise the manager the executives, everybody the players have not just become as bad as they are I'm convinced of that so whether they find a unity out of the adversity this week and go into somewhere as hostile as Leeds United.

48:04But you know what? I'm a complete idiot. Walking to that ground the other day, I thought United might get a result against Atletico. Well, I thought in the first half, let alone walking towards it, when Mbumo was getting those chances. Yeah. I was thinking, you're saying there's a chance? I mean, I actually didn't feel that disappointed in the overall performance, really. It was one of the better ones this season. It's not much of a barometer, I suppose, but I definitely felt like there was some green shoots in that. There was, and that's against one of the best teams in Europe as well. That was an incredible place to watch football.

48:37I don't know if you agree, Laurie, the other night, the atmosphere was amazing and they had different motivations there. Of course, Simeone's always motivated, but Koke, their main man, his mother had died that morning, so there was emotional motivations as well. And yeah, United are down inside two seconds or whatever it was, but created four good chances more one-on-ones but we keep going at press conferences after and Michael Carrick saying we could have been I don't want could have been anymore I want we did this I don't want to be talking about refereeing decisions or individual errors that have gone against Manchester United I want him to be talking about how difficult it is to come to Leeds but we've come away with a win do you remember Leeds last year what happened that was when Ruben Amarin blew up again so there is a history there and then you know united should be vengeful against leeds and only beaten pre-season on penalties in in dublin and i think we united would have better side there but we saw that leeds are actually a competent established premier league team we weren't even saying that a year ago but they won at old trafford didn't they that was probably the worst result under michael carrick and i would be hoping that the players feel vengeful after that game if I sound like I'm sort of scraping the barrel it's because I am I'll go into that game and be be optimistic but I do think Manchester United have got the players to be able to beat Leeds United away but I know it will be incredibly tough well that's the other thing Laurie you know again you can hear the support for what Alessandro Martinez has said but in his statement as well he addresses the fact that they have to do better you know for all the criticisms you can make of the transfer policy and the transfer window, this squad is still far, far better than what we've seen so far this season.

50:21And even with no more support, they still should be doing better than they're doing. And the place to start rectifying that is Sunday at Ellum Road, isn't it? Remind everyone. And just not conceding silly goals late on. I mean, I saw silly goals. It was a rocket, wasn't it, Everton? It was a silly goal against Spurs. It's just too loose. They all feel preventable though, don't they? Yeah, not getting out quick enough, not getting that aggressive approach off the ball. The intensity of it, yeah, exactly. That's why you're sort of thinking, right, freshen the legs. And I actually thought Balaba and Santos were pretty good in athletics.

50:55I thought as a duo, you know, sensing danger, kind of breaking up play, I think Balaba's got that burst of energy that you need. Some nice skills actually on the ball, I thought, as well, like in tight situations. So I could see that continuing. It depends on Kobi Mainu's fitness, doesn't it, a little bit, But whether that was a precaution or whether that was genuinely, he might be out for a little bit of time. We'll find out, I suppose, from Carrick to a degree. Maybe not. Yeah, I do think the striker thing is a bad miss, really. I just think you had to get somebody else in this summer. You knew the Sesco thing was a bit of an issue.

51:29Even if he was fully firing, I would still say get another striker in because as soon as he's out, it's Joshua Zerks in. He's still a younger player. He didn't play all the time last season. So that is where I would have quite a major issue really with United's approach. Even aside from the left-back call as well. Yeah, you just hope that United can show that intensity off the ball and that fighting spirit. I think they showed it a bit, to be honest, in Madrid. And Leeds is going to be a different game entirely, but you need to see more of that kind of approach. And just finally, actually, on the Bruno Fernandes point as well, just because he looked fatigued to me or like he's still carrying something.

52:12He's struggling, isn't he? Yeah, you could see him coming off maybe earlier than he did actually, even though he had a couple of really good chances. Marcus Rashford as well, I don't think that was his best game at all. And he came off straight off the pitch when he was kind of removed. He kind of didn't go to the centre of the pitch to kind of make his way off. I think he was feeling it. He kind of went on down on his haunches. He'd obviously been carrying, I think, a hip injury, hasn't he? So, yeah, they're obviously, some of them are playing through a little bit of something, but that should still mean that when you are on the pitch, get out to your opponent and close them down, make it hard, because Leeds would definitely make it hard for United.

52:49Just on Bruno, Laurie, I mean, does he need a rest? They just can't do that at the moment with him, can they? But he certainly doesn't look himself so far this season. Yeah, you'd ideally look and see what games could he rest. I mean, it's not Leeds away, is it? Not Leeds away. It's probably not Como away. No. It's not Bournemouth at home, is it? No. So it's when. That would be the idea, though. Chelsea away? No, Roma at home. Aston Villa at home. If they beat Como away, could you make an argument for Roma at home? A couple of wins in the bank in that competition. Yeah, I mean, ideally you'd get Tielemans as the number 10 and Belieber and Santos maybe.

53:28So you've got the energy, you've got the legs there. It does feel like it complements it. But yeah, the Bruno, it's not right, is it, with him at the moment? And I just sort of wonder about why. I've got the solution, lads. Someone collared me in Madrid the other day and went, any chance you can mention Josh Zerkesy doing well at Leeds last season one more time? Because you've only mentioned it 30 times so far in the game since. I thought, Ava, is it that bad? But then I thought, there's your answer. Josh, you've done it at Ellen Road beforehand. and that was among talking to United fans in Madrid and I think we should also compliment 4 ,000 reds went there good behaviour they had a great great time a legitimate discussion about whether it was right to stay to the end or to leave early and people are arguing pretty stridently about that as well but I think United fans behave themselves in Madrid Josh Dirksy this is your moment he says not sounding desperate at all.

54:30I love how, yeah, an assist to Cunha, it's kind of like he really owned it. I mean, he did do well when he came on and he actually... He did better than well, mate. He did absolutely fantastic. Best performance I've ever seen. Okay, but that is... Just sorry to bring a bit of seriousness to it and bring it back to the circle. Oh, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Okay, well, just... He is a player that United have looked to sell, you know, and he looked to sell this summer. They didn't sell him. So I'm just saying, so that's obviously part of the, you know, the context around Martinez saying what he said And then also, obviously, Ellen Road being the place where Ruben Amarin, you know, last season, you know, went off on Jason Wilcox.

55:07It's been sort of nine months since somebody's publicly had a pop against him. It was that part of it with Martinez. You know, he had a tempestuous relationship at times with Amarin. You know, he went sort of face to face with him at Carrington one time and he thought he should be playing. But then ultimately, Amarin made him captain a couple of times before he left. So I think he probably liked that kind of firebrand attitude. did that also play a part in what Martinez then came out and said given the way it had ended for Amarim. So yeah, back at the scene where it all kind of... Grew up last time.

55:36Yeah. Okay, well, let's see what Sunday's got in store. That's it for Talk of the Devils for today. It's a very difficult moment, this, to be able to encompass everyone's thoughts, to try and gather in all the different aspects of this conversation. We're trying our best to bring you the insight that we've got, the knowledge that we've got of the situation, and also be reflective of the different opinions and the different questions and comments that we're getting as well. So stick with us. Let's hope after the game on Sunday, we've got something more positive to reflect on. Let's hope the football does the talking this time around.

56:07But for the minute, Andy and Laurie, thank you so much for being with us as always. And thank you for your company listening and watching as well. We'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye.

56:39The Athletic FC.

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