What was missing for Man United at Hull?

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1:44The Athletic FC.

2:04This is Talk to the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, the studio has had a little bit of a glow up. It's a new season, but unfortunately in week one, we've got an old familiar post-mortem to pour over all the details of United's 2-0 defeat at Hull on Saturday. We'll ask the questions as to what went wrong, what might happen moving forward, and see what's left in this transfer window for United as well. Carlos Belaber may or may not be done by the time this reaches your eyes and your ears, but anyway, we'll talk about that in a bit. Carl and Laurie are here in the new studio.

2:36Carl's got suitable trousers for the occasion. Nice one, Carl. And Andy is also joining us on the line at home as well. I mean, Laurie, you and I made the trip up to the MKM Stadium on Saturday. We saw the Humber Bridge at dawn pretty much, and that was about as good as it got. Yeah, the sunrise over that bridge. You were actually loving the bridge, weren't you? It was almost like I was with Andy Mitton, sort of watching the landscape and the architecture. And yeah, that basically was as good as it got, really, because when the football started, we had hoped it and we had sort of a little bit of expectation.

3:08Pre-season had gone fairly well, although I suppose, in hindsight, the AC Milan game was a bit of an alarm bell that then Hull, it seemed like, replicated with their back five system, switches of play, and certainly the manager afterwards, Sergei, was quite open about that. I'm on first-name terms with him, obviously. Very charismatic guy. And, yeah, I mean, United just felt blunt in attack, really. Brittle at the back. It was a pretty bad combo. The set pieces undermined them totally. And we can perhaps get into that a little bit more in terms of what exactly went wrong there. But concerning, really.

3:40And I think Carrick did try and change things. Obviously, at the end of the game, he had everybody that scored league goals last season in Cesco and Bumo, Cunha, Fernandes, even Rashford. He had eight, I think, for Barcelona in La Liga last season. Rashford actually looked quite good. Half-time substitution, first competitive appearance in 20 months. But the story was United losing so convincingly, really, because there wasn't that kind of charge at the end to try and change things around. Hull weren't really clinging on. They were pretty comfortable. You're allowing a team where they sing about getting mauled by the Tigers.

4:14I'm not going to do the hand motion to beat you. You know, you've got the stadium announcer kind of gleefully sort of telling United fans that their trains have been cancelled back to Manchester. You know, it kind of just felt everything that could have gone wrong really happened. And now it's a case of, can United rectify it? The thing was, Carl, you have so much optimism and hope going into a new season and it just felt really flat, certainly in the first half. Really flat. That was a bad performance. United were slow on the ground and they were weak in the air and it felt like they were locked in on pre-season pace.

4:47whereas you had a whole team that was very determined to make a good first impression that was absolutely up for it. And the fact United couldn't find that extra bit of oomph. Disappointing, disappointing. Perhaps a weekend made slightly better by the fact that two or three other big teams have had a great performance. Man City, I don't think, played very well. Liverpool looked like they had a soft middle. Aston Villa imploded. Tottenham. The thing was though, City and Liverpool both found ways to rescue something from the games. So there was still something in their results, if not the performances, to give fans a little bit more positivity than we've been left with.

5:21Part of me is thinking there might be a hangover from the expanded World Cup and more players going away to North America. So a couple of teams might start the season slowly and then maybe as we get closer to Halloween, everyone's at their full pace. Part of me is also going, quite a few of these United players have had a good pre-season playing together. And yet when things started, they look completely out of sync. So I'm not quite sure how frustrated I should be. I'm not panicked, but I'm like, that was annoying. Yeah, you're right in what you say there. I mean, Andy, it is very easy to spiral and it's very easy to get carried away with a result like that on the opening day.

5:58And Michael Carrick did his best to sort of point out it was just one defeat. But how concerned are you? I was very concerned on Saturday. Michael Carrick's right. It is one defeat. Manchester United will win and lose games this season. they'll absolutely lose more matches but against a team who just come up following a good pre-season when we were talking about the positivity pre-season we weren't lying and then just to feel that optimism get punctured with a performance where United had 72 % of possession but just looked really flat it was just so disappointing it was a it's an absolute stinker of a result and if it's in isolation okay but if you remember the start of last season we reconvened after the opening game it was a defeat but we were much more upbeat because United played very well against Arsenal even though we lost Hull and Arsenal and Manchester United didn't play well beware of those trips in August to the Humber estuary it was Grimsby a year ago and it's Hull City this time and and hopefully Manchester United can bounce straight back and put in a performance because the one on Saturday was really lacking and really, really disappointing.

7:11Any signs that that was coming? Yeah. Do you think? I think the AC Milan, I was in Poland and... What did you give the pre-season out of 10? B. Well, it wasn't out of 10, it was a grade. We're not the modern GCSE school kids now, are we? But I think you could see the AC Milan game. It was basically, how much do you buy into the fact that that AC Milan game was players not wanting to get injured, it was hot, playing at a pace that was basically just get through the game or were there some tactical details in that and so that's why i sort of you can then see the whole game and think okay that was similar you know this quick switch to play the back five set pieces to a degree crosses the crosses that was even from the start of pre-season in the wrexham game it looked like it was an issue well so if you if you really want to go into it in terms of this back three back five you know wrexham played a back three back five and okay their goal it is a cross on the ground isn't it well shore's narrow and then it's a three-man at the far post.

8:08Leeds last season was a back three, back five, where again it was crosses, it was direct play. So is that something that is just a coincidence? The sample size isn't huge for the moment, is it? That's a Carl. You've learnt off Carl there, haven't you? You can't spot a trend from maybe four games where two of them are pre-season friendlies. But Jukirovic afterwards, I do know his surname and how to pronounce it. He's remembered it now, yeah. Yeah, that was basically what happened earlier. He said that they'd watched him a couple of times, once live or three times, once live. Spotted a couple of problems that they thought they could execute.

8:38I asked him why the back three, because they did play a little bit last season in the playoff final, for example. But it wasn't always the case. It was a back four. And Bruno, I think, mentioned it in his post-match press conference, saying we maybe expect, I think, to play pre-season as a back four, Hull. So that was maybe one of their expectations. So he obviously thought against United, I'm going to change it. I'm going to go to the system that we've used before, but I think can work well here. And it did, because you had Olimpick Burnley up top, just really aggressive. you talk about United it felt like United they've got the quality clearly but it felt like they they didn't anticipate how up for it Hull were going to be and it's a newly promoted side a decade since they've been in the Premier League they've got the crowd it's a sellout crowd you've got the owner you know who's very you know himself is pretty charismatic you know huge name in Turkey he's got high demands of things he kind of sets the tone for what they want as a club and so it felt like the players for Hull at least, reflected that.

9:35The first goal, for example, Mbumo expecting to get time on the ball and actually no, I think it's Regan Slater that nicks it away from him and then they get the corner. And so it just felt like this is the first game of the season. You need to be more attentive.

9:52Well, if they were, then where was the response? But then also you sort of hear, for example, Luke Shaw, I think, talk about the set pieces at least and how maybe there needs to be more preparation for that. So you do sort of wonder, were they fully switched on to this? It feels harsh saying that. And I know that Michael Carey understandably bristled at the suggestion that it was anything to do with passion or anything like that. I think there was obviously technical and tactical details that were the main contributor to that performance and that result. But then it did feel like there were certain moments where, you know, pass it quicker to try and break down this deep block.

10:28And it is difficult, I get that, when it's like 11 men perhaps behind the ball waiting to spring and go direct. But it felt like there wasn't enough urgency around United's play. So for example, you've got Harry Maguire, I think, ushering Tielemans off the ball at one point in the second half so he can kind of go down the line and kind of drive with it. He was in Maverick mode. He was in Maverick mode. I couldn't understand a little bit. I mean, it was his cross in the first half that was brilliant, probably should have been converted really. And then in the second half, he goes up top in quite a lot of moments and gets a couple of chances.

10:55And I'm not saying that all players should do that because then you've kind of got chaos, haven't you? But he obviously fell, and I think that's understandable, that that was maybe a course that United could take with Sesco not being fit to start. Him coming off the bench was interesting and also it looked like he wasn't quite sharp, right? With a couple of chances, I think Rashford, a couple of crosses, the one on the ground as well. And I think to Carl's point, the World Cup has had an impact, hasn't it? Where you've got players coming back later than others. How ready, how much into their match fitness are they?

11:26Because it's a different thing, I think, going from a friendly to then a Premier League game where I guess you've got the Hull players that are all massively focused on this being the start of their Premier League campaign and they know they've got to fight for every single point. United have to fight for every single point though, so that's why it was then so disappointing that they couldn't turn things around. What did you make of the way that Carrick started the game? I mean, Ahmad losing him was a huge blow clearly before the match and we're sort of waiting to find out exactly how severe his problem is.

11:53Hopefully it's not a long one. It was described as a knock, I think, on Saturday. but Kunja being the number nine and Bumo then being pushed to the right-hand side obviously Patrick Dogg who started on the left taking off at half-time but even the way that Kunja, Bruno Fernandes, Tielemans all together interacted they seemed like at times in that first half where it worked but then there were other times where they seemed to be getting each other's space and none of it really felt like there was clarity to it all is that just because it was the first game of the season or is that something to do with the way they set up the way Hull approached it I mean, I spoke to Ryan Giles after the game and he was talking about the importance of basically reducing the space between all the players in that low block.

12:35And it certainly stifled United's strengths. I think it's a combination of things. You've got a group that has just got to work with each other. So Tielemans, when I talked to him before the Leeds pre-season game, said, well, I've only been here for 10 days. But his first instinct now is to, when he gets on the ball, find Bruno Fernandes. And that hopefully will be a partnership that gets better. but it looks as if that's not quite come together. The pace that Tielemans wants to play or perhaps sort of regulate tempo seems to at the moment brush up against Bruno Fernandes as just give me the ball and I'll sort out the rest of it and play in a quick manner.

13:08I think that maybe got worse as we got into the second half as well as Fernandes sort of heats up and Tielemans is trying to play at a different pace. I think Oli McBurnie was really, really good at making sure Andre Santos had a bad day or didn't quite get into his rhythm so there are loads of times he's dropping deep and Santos perhaps thinks he's got a fraction of a second more and McBurnie's just there or he was cutting off passes into Santos as well. So you've got that going on. I mean, that dribble he did where you think the ball's gone out of play. So Santos thinks the ball's gone out of play but McBurnie's on the crow's turn and done this mazy run and he's just dropped Tielemans.

13:42You're like, oh no. And in Bumo. I mean, I sent him a piece. He looked like prime Maradona in that moment. I mean, maybe that's a bit excessive. I like the flourish. I liked your artistic flourish. I did not like the Burnley's artistic flourish because it's also one of those, you would never have done that in any other circumstance. That's what I mean about all the elements coming together for it to be a complete disaster for United. But weren't you asking for players or our player to be the one who puts the tackle in and changes the emphasis and the rhythm of a game by imposing themselves on it?

14:13And United did need that, actually. That was the one thing. They lost so many duels, one-on-one duels, especially in that first half. It felt like nobody won the one-on-one battle. 50 for hole 35 for United yeah so I mean and as a percentage I think it was 65 in the first half for hole and they only really dropped 62 so they they didn't even run out of puff sometimes you play they all ran out of puff but they got replaced yeah the defence was almost completely different by the end of the game because they all had cramp they were working so hard to stop United absolutely exhausting themselves against a United team that just looked slow and you hope that will pick up and improve later on and hopefully there's going to be more recruitment recruitment will help solve that by the time the window is closed and we'll get that enforcer so the next time McBurney or someone else tries doing that there's just no you've had your fun there too the winger point that you mentioned was quite interesting so Imad being injured means Mbimo pretty much has to play on the right wing so then it's Kunya up front Kunya Kunya's tendency is to drift across the front three positions he's going hunting for the ball I think that left United without a focal point which is really useful when you're playing up against a side that wants to cross the ball that much as well if you're going to cross the ball that much if you're playing up against a back five it's useful to have one person who can push the opposition center backs backwards and i think hull were really really good in their timing and they didn't they didn't drop deep in the second half they didn't panic and retreat in the same way that england did during certain phases of the world cup um and that was annoying dorgu is very very good when he wants to run in behind there's very little space they're running behind a whole team that is incredibly well disciplined so I think Rashford coming on was an interesting point of difference Rashford and Shaw had two or three moments where you're going oh yeah it's like 2021 again they clipped straight back into it I thought overlaps, underlaps and Rashford found him a couple of times now it's entirely at your discretion as to whether you want to start Rashford again if Sessio comes up maybe give Kunja another go at left wing again so we'll see there too so you've got for me problems with physicality the injuries to Sosko and Ahmad perhaps caused the front three to play in a more narrow shape, which fed into Hull's hands even more.

16:25And then, yeah, just the Hull team that were playing at 120 % because of the fact that it's day one, you're at home, everyone wants to see you put on a great show. So, yeah, frustrating. Andy, what did you make of the post-match interviews as well? We had this interview with Michael Carrick and Jan Agrafjortov, which was done for Fireplay Norway that a few people were sharing over the weekend, Bristol in at the suggestion there was a lack of passion or lack of players caring in that first half it was in some ways quite good to see Carrick react the way he did yeah I like it when he has a bit of an edge and professional footballers despise it when people say that you're basically not trying your best that you don't care that you've got a lack of passion and I think Michael Carrick said to Jan Agafjortov look you played you know he's almost suggesting it was disrespectful to ask that question but the lads are right it was such a passive disappointing performance and you're picking out ollie mcburnie a lad who was born in leeds actually played at man united when he was a kid he went for like one month and man united had a real good look at him but he's so wholeheartedly committed to whatever he does he played in spain for a year a couple of years ago he learned spanish and manchester united needs to be prepared for that teams are totally raising the game against manchester united because of the name and on saturday it wasn't and i thought it was interesting that you you mentioned the low block i asked michael carrick about this a month or two ago i said to him how how are your team going to break down defensive sides um it's been quite a historical problem and carrick said it depends how you look at it there are different ways of scoring goals different ways of playing in certain games our best teams came up against teams defending in lots of numbers more recently teams have won the league in the last few years and found it hard to score against low blocks or whatever.

18:12What's the solution? Potent players in certain positions, different ideas, and I think a lot of it is mentality, about being positive, going for it, and looking for the goal with the fans behind you, looking to be aggressive in a football sense, looking for the solution instead of worrying what the problem is. There's a big difference in your mind in how you approach that. So that is all fair comment, but when you're watching Manchester United with 72 % of possession, struggling to find clear-cut chances then it doesn't translate into the reality of what we saw Carrick was disappointed after the game I'm glad we saw an edge to him and I know that privately he will be bristling and he'll feed that into his players I just hope it's a kick up the backside a wake-up call because you move into another game against a promoted team there simply cannot be a repeat and I don't think there will be some good can come from this because it was an absolute stinker and it's like wake up the season started now yeah just to go into some of the detail I mean the other thing about breaking down low blocks is not giving away soft goals isn't it and you know you don't want to get caught on the break clearly but you also don't want to concede from the few set pieces that you actually give away I mean Hull scored from the first set piece in the game obviously they followed that up pretty quickly with another one as well from a free kick that even the nature of the way that those opportunities were given away would be a disappointment to Manchester United.

19:37But it has reopened the conversation about set-pieces. So Harry sent us an email here, and I'll put this to you, Andy. Wondering what you all think of the lack of an aerial presence today and what United should do about it. We looked abysmal from set-pieces on both sides of the ball. Is a set-piece coach now an essential or another signing maybe to address this in the remainder of the window? What do you think? So look at it from two ways. One at the Manchester United end, I think 39 crosses went in. where was Manchester United's threat going against that back three, which Laurie referred to. And some of them Hull lads were giants.

20:09Crooks, Man United fan, Man United season ticket holder, historically before being a professional footballer, got in the way of that. And then the goals, they were awful to look at. And I think, do you say that they were targeted? Aidan Heaven is raw, is inexperienced, and players are going to take note of that. but it wasn't just the set pieces. Juri Tielemans was nutmegged and gave away a free kick which led to a goal. You can't be doing that either. Them goals were awful to look back on. Senna Lamans made a brilliant save before one of them which gets completely forgotten as does any of the good stuff that Manchester United did because it's overshadowed and quite rightly by the fact that Hull City won the game 2-0.

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23:02Speaking to Luke Shaw after the game, he was talking about how the second set piece, and I think it was Balumi that stepped over the ball, he would have taken it with his left foot, and then Slater whipped it in with his right, sort of caught him out, and he got caught underneath the ball, I think as a result of that. There was also, I think, in that first concession for United, Aidan Heaven's position I found really interesting. Because in pre-season, the players have been briefed that there will be issues if they aren't looking at the ball and they are grappling with defenders in the box. And Aidan Heaven, if you watch him, threw on that goal that eventually was scored by Ajayi.

23:40He's got hold of, or he should have hold of, Oli McBurney. but actually he's looking at the ball the entire time whereas probably last season it had been turned facing McBurney grappling with him holding him a bit and obviously maybe the directives in his in his ears a little bit because he's got his eyes on the way all the way through on the ball rather than McBurney and he obviously gets in at the back post to be able to get that chance so there are details there that that need to be to be worked on how how do you feel United move forward with set pieces is this something that needs a set piece coach like has been mentioned a little bit or is it just a bad day at the office with set pieces um the suppose the good thing about set piece training is this is something you can get better at across the season uh we i mean since the 2018 world cup you've seen more and more coaches focus on set pieces because it's that repeatable over and over and over again on the dressing room i can't necessarily make a football coach might not have enough time to improve a football player's first touch but you can in the bleak midwinter with enough lads just whipping enough crosses to get you in tune with what you need to do in a matchday scenario even when you're shattered from all the games you've still got the ability to do walkthroughs of set piece routines defending and attacking so i'm not necessarily i have less information than andy and lorry as to whether or not a new person's coming through the door but i feel this is something united can get better at and can improve on in very workable ways if aiden haven't got the new directives in his head I don't mind that because that means hopefully towards the end of the season he's going to find the right balance between aggression and staying on the right side of giving away fouls the first goal where it looks like Harry Maguire and Masraou are far too close to each other that'll be frustrating but you'll get used to it it's a big miss losing a player like Casemiro he wasn't the tallest but he was so good at understanding where to stand for second balls and getting ahead on initial contact in both boxes So you need perhaps one extra big lad with a forehead, but also the directives and the organisation, that will come in time, hopefully.

25:45Yeah, because it was a strength of United's last season set pieces, really, in the end. Certainly attacking set pieces, but how much of that was Casemiro? I mean, certainly Maguire scored a good header inning against AC Milan from a corner in the last pre-season game, so you'd hope that he would be able to sort of add to that. But yeah, it looked like a confusing arrangement for the whole set pieces. Like, as Shor's kind of alluded to, that they weren't fully switched on to what they might do. I think for his one, he sort of drops, doesn't he, for that dummy. So then the two players, it's either two players could actually head it in the end.

26:21I think it's Mendy that gets that one. But he drops for the first dummy. So it's like five yards deeper than his teammates, which just needs to be rectified, doesn't it? Does that mean somebody comes in to do set-pieces? It was spoken about when Carrick was getting the job. I think Andreas Georgeson was mentioned, who'd previously been at United, had a good streak for set-pieces, we're led to believe. I just haven't heard anything more recently than that. So you look at the coaches that are there at the moment, Jonathan Woodgate, obviously, former defender, Johnny Evans, former defender, you'd think it's perhaps on them to kind of get to grips with it and say, this is what needs to be done.

26:58I think United, for example, used to have, when Carrick was playing, I think Carrick was quite a key player in the defensive set piece because of his height. So you'd have maybe a tall one at the front post, a tall one at the back post. I think Van Persie used to be the tall one at the front post at that period. So I didn't need to look back, but what was the set-up for United? I think Shaw was maybe the furthest one back, which is why then you've got this kind of issue with the second goal. So yeah, things to rectify. I suppose, just to touch on your earlier point with Carrick post-match, in the press conference as well, he was defending, I think, understandably his own record and saying, listen, we won 12 games.

27:37We didn't lose many games, basically. It was two games they lost, obviously, in his 17-game streak. They won both the matches after that. Leeds lost at home, won at Chelsea the next time. Newcastle lost away and they beat Aston Villa the next time. So there is clearly a sign there that they do look at what went wrong, adjust and improve. So hopefully that's the case then going into the Ipswich game. So they have to win that really, you know, in my mind, because it just, you'd then, the kind of, you know, I don't know, the concern would grow, wouldn't it? And you just want to kind of nip it in the bud and say it was a bad day at the office.

28:11We are better than that and we will be better than that this season. Let's bring you something positive. You mentioned bouncing back before, didn't you? So the last, what, six Premier League seasons, Manchester United lost on the opening day, 1-0 to Arsenal last season, ended up finishing third. Won on the opening day the previous season, 15th. 23-24, beat Wolves, finished eighth. 22-23, lost to Brighton, finished third. 21-22, beat Leeds, finished sixth. And 20-21, lost to Crystal Palace, finished second. Even when they last won the Premier League title, they lost on the opening day of the season.

28:48Do you know when they won the first Premier League title, they lost on the opening day of the season? So come on. It's not a bad thing, right? Yeah, look. Go on, dispute it, Carl. I'm not going to dispute that. You look at that United line-up and there are personal fixes to things. It's when Cescou gets full match fitness. Well, the bench said that. The bench was so strong. That's got to be the strongest bench Carrick's ever had to call upon. Maybe not in terms of condition, but names. Yep, absolutely. I think the squad's getting to a good place. one advantage of this moment in time is it's another week that United have to prepare for Ipswich rather than you have to put a Champions League game in the middle there too so it's a bit more time to get to get your act together Ipswich did look decent against Sunderland I will say but we'll cross that bridge when we need to come to it on Thursday and CISA looked pretty dangerous didn't they yeah yeah but things will get better and then in terms of personnel conditioning yeah these these are things that will congeal and get better and I'm really interested to see how the Fernandes-Teleman combination goes from here.

29:52That's something that I think can get very good very quickly. And I'm hoping it gets very good very quickly. I think Fernandes was disappointing for his passing, wasn't he? Usually he conjures something and that's maybe what Carrick's talking about when he's talking with Andy about finding those combinations. And Telemans certainly is a player like that as well that can unlock, you'd hope, one-twos. There just wasn't any movement running behind. They had a bit of that, didn't they? Telemans found a couple of passes over the top or they were beginning to punch balls through the lines in that first period.

30:19A few erratic touches, wasn't there? Like miscontrols and maybe that's just the rust of not, you know, it's pre-season then into the first game. And I didn't so fully give the response in terms of Carrick in the press conference afterwards that I meant to, where he also actually was, it was put to him about being calm and sort of, you know, having that composure. And he basically said, I played at this club for a long time, you know, won everything really. It was the unsaid thing. you can't just be calm throughout all the ups and downs you have to have emotion there is emotion basically in me I'm just not showing it to you was essentially his message so again in terms of bouncing back from a defeat hopefully that you know he does I think he does show himself to the players well the thing is it's like been held up as his biggest strength that the fact that he is calm and it's the antidote to what came before and then all of a sudden now it's the biggest criticism of him that he's too calm or too composed and doesn't look like he's hurting enough so yeah I'm sure everyone will respond for that Ipswich game next week.

31:14I mean, Andy, Carl mentioned it briefly before, but Marcus Rashford's appearance off the bench, it's definitely a note to say that it was... I found it surprising that he was the first player that was turned to at halftime when Patrick Dorgue came off. And his performance, you know, there was a little bit of a reaction when he was warming up at halftime from the away end. It was generally positive, I would say. Might be a different story at Old Trafford and it'll be interesting to get a barometer of how people feel about him during that game as well. But he actually did have an impact on that match and made a case to start the game even against Sipswich.

31:49He did. I thought he looked better combining with Luke Shaw than Patrick Dorgoo did. I thought Dorgoo was one of the poorest Manchester United players in the first half, even though he was actually involved in a lot of the action closer to the whole goal. And I thought Marcus was bright. I think Manchester United fans at Old Trafford will get behind him if they see Marcus Rashford giving 100 % and trying. And if he starts scoring goals, I think United fans will get their head around the fact that he's back. They'll park some of their past feelings about him. I think they'll give him a fair chance.

32:25But that's only if he's playing well. And he's got the potential to play well. but the one thing that I was struck by was Luke Shaw's connections with him looked far stronger than the Patrick Dorgue one and interesting Laurie said about losing the opening game in 92-93 when United went on to win the league United just didn't lose the opening game they lost the second game as well and the third game against Ipswich Town they only drew that match so imagine that now you're three games in and you've got one point against teams who are perceived to be low down. I will give you a happier omen. That was Hull City's first ever win against Manchester United in the top flight.

33:10But in the relegation season, 74-75, Hull City did beat United 2-0 away at Boothry Park and United went on to win the league that year. So there you go. 21st title is coming. You're not changing your hot take, your car's bad take amnesty, are you Andy? Yeah, the Omens are queuing up a little bit, aren't they, in that regard. Would you start Rashford against Sipswich? Yeah, I think so. If there was one run in the second half where Rashford's got the ball charging down and Luke Shaw overlaps him, Rashford hits it to him outside, Shaw hits the first time cross, it gets blocked. And it's one of those that you don't, I didn't see Shaw do that that much last season.

33:52He knows to run because he knows he's going to get the ball. Well, it's the understanding between the two of them, isn't it? I think United as well, one thing, Yap Stam was at the game for Hull, I interviewed him before the match, I spoke to him afterwards, and he was talking about some of the things that United used to be good at in days gone by, and he was talking about the importance of just building pressure and building relationships and threat down the flanks when it's not working through the middle, and I think certainly in the second half, down that left-hand side, when you've got those sorts of relationships like Shaw and Rashford showed, It is so much easier to push a team back and to keep them under pressure when you've got those understandings in the team.

34:30And it's not quite built between other players, has it? And you obviously had Mizrahi, who's not played as much as Dallow on the right with Mbumo on Saturday too. Yeah, a couple of connections will take some time going. The good thing is that there are options now. It can be Rashford or it can be Kunja or it can be Patrick Dorgo on the left-hand side. It can be Brian Mbumo on the right or if a Mads injury is worse, Shea Lacey can come in as well. we're talking about we've just been talking about the Tielemans and Bruno Fernandes combination if that doesn't work out in the way we want it there's still a perfectly brilliant mainer waiting in the wings to come on and offer something there too and then hopefully by the time this podcast comes out if Santos isn't quite enjoying it when a strike and it drops deep could eventually be in October time but Labour going ah this is fun I can handle things so good reasons there and for Ipswich at home you want to get at them you want to put pressure on them and hopefully make sure they're not as confident when they are in the same way that Hull were Okay well we'll preview the Ipswich game a little bit later on in the week we've got another live stream coming your way on Thursday to coincide with the Champions League draw we'll confirm the exact time of that once we work out how long the pre-stage of the draw is going to take place because these things if you remember a Champions League draw it's been a while do take quite a while to get going so we'll put a time up on there another reason to get yourselves subscribed to Talk The Devils on YouTube click the bell as well so you get notified when the live stream will be and obviously when we go live as well, we did one last week which was absolutely fantastic and thank you again for everyone getting involved so that's a little note for your diary on Thursday that we'll have another Talk The Devils live stream and on it we will preview the Ipswich game as well in between the balls being pulled out of hats or whatever they're pulled out of these days.

36:20It's a big bowl, isn't it, I think, usually. Bows, bags, yeah. Well, when those balls are pulled out, we will have previewed Ipswich for all of that as well. Ian's brain scrambled here for a Champions League draw. I just don't remember what happens. Does anyone remember what happens at Champions League draws? The league phase now has got like a, there's an automated computer and all this thing. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So we're not drawing groups, we're drawing opponents home and away, basically. Yes, yes, we are. Four trips away. That's what I need to focus on. Yeah. Hull City gave you a little taste of that, didn't it?

36:47Well, it's very sunny. It's almost like being abroad. What a lovely thing to say about Kingston upon Hull. I feel like that's a saying that I'm going to get rinsed for in the comments. Alan Parcher or something, you know what I mean? Feel free.

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38:51Let's talk transfers. You said about Belaber before. By the time this reaches your eyes, your ears, he could well be a Manchester United player because we're close to an announcement. What are we now? 11 o 'clock Monday morning. It's coming, isn't it? Yeah, it's coming, yeah. That was the anticipation on Friday when it finally got sorted. So transfer fee being£65 million with a£5 million add-on. I think Brighton have also got a sell-on. Although I guess, you know, from a United perspective, you'd hope that never gets activated. We ain't selling Carlos. Exactly. There we go. Not for a profit, anyway.

39:22Well, yes, quite. I mean, that's it. So, I mean, United, last summer, we spoke about it a lot, didn't we? Where Brighton, you know, they never really gave a price, but basically we were saying Moises Caicedo money, which was, I think, 115 in the end. So, anyway, north of 100 million. So, whatever price you kind of think that Brighton were going to demand last summer, it's obviously a significant reduction on that. And I suppose in that sort of mindset, I do sort of wonder, you know, back in sort of April time, when I was hearing that it was, you know, there was a significant chance of it happening, whether United basically just felt like, we'll wait until the last sort of week or two at the window and then sort of press ahead then when, you know, Brighton, it feels like they had to sell at this moment.

40:04You know, Belaber wants to join United. He is joining United. So you've got that leverage there. I do think they looked around at other options for sure, but I think they always had this one perhaps in the back of their minds as one that they could activate on and seeing how things developed over the course of the summer. And clearly, Carl called it right, didn't he, last week when we were in the studio when he said we need that enforcer. And I wasn't too sure. I thought maybe the left-back would be the priority. I guess he could play left-back if needs be, although he hasn't played there for Brighton.

40:32But he has played centre-back actually for Brighton a couple of times. Has he not played left-back for Brighton? Apparently not. I asked my colleague Andy Naylor, who covers Brighton, knows far more about Brighton than I do. that's what he said so blame him if he has played a left back that's fine I like my defensive midfielder to play in defensive midfield yeah that does work more carrying in midfield I don't like it when people suggest my centre back should be playing in defensive midfield so Sanjay Martinez anyone who didn't get that oh good point yes yeah well he might be sort of knocking on the door after not playing so yeah but medical has taken place that's all sorted contract agreed five years plus one which is the usual course of action so yeah I think there's a few small details as we speak to be decided, well, not decided, to be finalised.

41:16So, visa, for example, things like that. But I'm sure that the medical, it's fine. I know that he's had this injury, but I don't think that's... It's kind of funny, isn't it, when you think of Edison, why that one didn't go through. There's obviously different reasons. If this ankle problem that he's got isn't that serious, United can go, OK, he's going to be back at this point. We're going to proceed with the deal on that basis. So, yeah, it's been a while, but he's in the building. he's in Manchester might be signed by the time this comes out Any indication of when we'll see him on the pitch?

41:46Yeah, I mean maybe later in September I think there was some suggestion that he could actually be on the grass around this Ipswich game really not for the Ipswich game, I hasten to add and after what we just saw at Hull, throwing a player in that isn't perhaps fully ready isn't the best idea Maybe we'll see him on the pitch in a suit saluting the Shretford end possibly and taking a selfie. I would imagine that United will present on the pitch at Old Trafford on Sunday against Ipswich, yeah. Andy, should we be excited about this? I mean, after the weekend, you kind of think he could have been an antidote to some of the issues they had in the whole game.

42:22Yeah, it's interesting Laurie saying there about on the pitch. I don't think United fans would know of his reputation as much as, say, Rafael Varane coming on the pitch where everyone's completely pumped for it. I think with Baleba, he's got some similarities with Kobi Meynu, not just his age, he's the ball carrier, he's technically strong, he's brave. But I think if you look at the top teams, they've got two players for each position. Santos brought in to be a defensive midfielder, he's a disruptor, he's a ball-winning one. I like Tielemans, I didn't particularly like him on Saturday, but he's got the possession in quality, he's got the threat, and the threat has been lost through Casemiro.

43:02So I can see why that one makes a lot of sense. When I saw the line-up on Saturday, I was okay with it from a perspective of balance, but maybe that was not what was needed against a team that ended up going 4-5-1. And when they'd gone ahead, that became even more difficult to break down. Balaba first came into the consciousness of the United fans maybe a year ago, but the club had been looking at him for a good eight to nine months before that there was a scout saying this lad here at brighton and that scout um his his voice is very well respected within manchester united and a year ago it was like bang this belabor and he's going to cost this much it always felt like it wasn't going to get done last year because of the high price that brighton wanted if he does end up being as good as Manchester United think that he can be, then it will be a really good price.

44:00But I would have said the same about Jadon Sancho when he came. He sort of waited a year, got him for a lot less than Borussia Dortmund initially wanted. But maybe I'm not being fair to Carlos Belaiba there. I think Manchester United have done proper checks on him and I think all the players that have come in, I think that their personalities are seen as being positives and hopefully he can be successful for Manchester United. I think the key is you've got the strength in midfield now where you've got two players for each position, which is what you're going to need in what's hopefully a 60-game season.

44:33I suppose the question immediately goes to, is there anything else coming through the door now once Balaba is done? We've talked a lot about left-back. There's still some sort of speculation simmering on that. But watching them at the weekend, you wonder if centre-forward is still an area that they might look at. Obviously, Joshua Zerkesi's future is still a little bit in question. And finding that sort of sesgo alternative in that sort of game like at Hull kind of made me think, I wonder if that is an area that they actually think about again in the remainder. Yeah, it feels like a stretch goal for me.

45:04The impression I've been getting for the last two or three weeks was centre midfielder, left back. And then if Zerkesi leaves, we will see what we can do for a centre forward. and I often go back to the summer of 2024 where it took Dean Henderson leaving before United eventually made out a move for Amrabat and Reguillon and we knew Ten Hag wanted Amrabat to be his Casemiro deputy but because of cash flow, because of funds that couldn't happen until Henderson went to Crystal Palace so maybe United could end up doing some deadline day business if Xerxi leaves that's a maybe and an if rather than a yeah United are absolutely going to go out for centre forward which sort of centre forward that is I mean my heart is still crying out for Danny Welbeck We said this on Saturday we said in that game it would have been perfect wouldn't it starting him Yeah I definitely think you need to get a focal centre forward There's a couple of other Chelsea strikers who might be available there's a Nico Jackson or a Liam De Lape maybe you can't go back to Liam De Lape after he said no first time I'm not saying they will do I'm just saying that there are Chelsea attackers available.

46:12I don't mind Nico Jackson. He might be a lone sort of type. His finishing is unusual and very often below average. But his physicality, his ability to open up space for others, pin back other centre forwards, centre forwards? Yeah, you can pin back other centre forwards too. His ability to pin back other centre backs has been useful in the past for Chelsea. He had a great chemistry with Cole Palmer. so a player like Nico Jackson in theory works well with someone like Bruno Fernandes I like him I'd have no idea if he's going to come to Manchester United if he arrived I wouldn't mind it we're not we're not linking them directly with United or saying that they are I'd rather have Jackson than Liam De Lapp okay I think you're right in what you said Laurie as well to be honest on Liam De Lapp because the other thing is it doesn't feel like a left-back is as likely as it once was when you have a manager saying absolutely no chance about whether Lewis Hall can be extracted out of Newcastle in the next week.

47:10Yeah, I thought we were going to go for Carrick's we're looking at all positions when I said that. Yeah, Yaisler after the game. Peter Schmeichel was doing the old United Agency work there, wasn't he? Agent Peter. I think he said we, you know, we are looking at your left back. Well, he had to repeat the question because Yaisler didn't understand what we was initially. Did he not understand it? No, not straight away. Do you think he wasn't like, you know, one of them where, oh, so what do you mean? This is a difficult question. I might just give myself a little bit more time. And he looked good, didn't he, Lewis Hall in the game?

47:36apart from the M bit. I know, was that even a penalty? I mean, he just ran into him. Anyway, yeah, so, yeah, it feels like that is, I mean, if the manager comes out and says that, then, you know, I suppose you have to take him at face value. We'll see you next summer, Lewis. Well, this is it. So that was something that I thought we'd won it last week that, you know, could they get a cheap one in now if they do get one in and then sort of full focus next summer? Because it felt like the focus was midfield, which you couldn't understand. By the time they kind of came round to properly addressing that position, then, well, Newcastle have already sold Sandro Tonale, Anthony Gordon and Bruno Girmarais, so you can understand them being absolutely determined not to lose another player.

48:14I spoke to a Newcastle fan that knows what they're talking about and they were saying they'd be riots, basically, if they let Lewis Hall go now. So, fine, let's try and avoid that, although maybe, you know. But, yeah, there's been a couple of other names, hasn't there? Jorge Salinas, I'm told, is one that they have looked at, although Atletico appear that they might be leading the race on that one. And then Balde has come into the equation, hasn't he? More recently, the Barcelona left-back, who Andy will have watched a lot last season. A couple of George Mendes clients, actually. So, you know, I think he's trying to get moves for his players.

48:52Clearly, it's obviously not right with Balde at Barcelona with what Hansi Flick has come out and said. But I think, you know, speaking to my Spanish colleagues that know more about this than I do, sort of saying 45 million euros is what they're looking for for Balder. I just don't, listen, I've said this many times before where I don't get the impression that United are going to make that kind of spending and then they went and bought Sesco previous summers to that as well. Yeah, I guess it depends how much do they look at what happened at Hull and think we need to do something now as opposed to, no, I think we're going to be okay with what we've got.

49:28It feels like there's going to be conversations going on up until deadline but the noise at the moment is not to expect too much. Andy, Alejandro Baldi, what's his situation at Barca? Barca are trying to move him out for several reasons, one they think they can get money in for him, secondly they've got another young left-back Xavi Esparte who has played really well pre-season, he's only 19 but Barca bring like 19 kids through each season who are all absolutely brilliant and end up winning the World Cup so that's the situation Hansi Flick, the coach, was pretty strong against him. It reminds me of a situation Serginio Dest was in a couple of years ago at Barcelona.

50:09As for Manchester United, the club have wanted a left-back. I would be cautious given the money that has now been spent with Carlos Baleba. You may get some movement with players moving on, but I'd just be cautious. but where the money comes in from. And I'm sure if you say right now to Manchester United, would you like a left back? The answer would absolutely be yes, but it's how to pay for that when the money has been spent on the signings that have come in. So if we see Josh Jerksy move on, as Carl said, you may get some movement. I sense there will be movement, but I just don't know where it is.

50:50Balde's star has dimmed a little bit. He sort of broke through. He was very, very young, playing under Xavi Hernandez. and then he's not played for Spain for a couple of years now. But I actually like him as a player. I don't know what he's like as a personality. Just on Zerks, I mean, it was interesting that obviously he didn't start the game, didn't come on in the game. Shea Lacey came on in the game and said when United do need goals. So I don't know if that's an indication as to which way it's going. Obviously, we've mentioned that Juventus have had talks over bringing him in. And yeah, if he goes, surely United bring somebody in.

51:22But yeah, how much that would be? Let's see. You're going to trust Juventus going into the deadline day. There's a history there, is there? They are known for pleading poverty and then offering last-minute loans rather than paying up the sort of cash you need to get things done. So we'll see. We'll see. I'll get in a tactics truck to look at Balde if the time comes. You've done this for Salinas though as well, haven't you? I have been in a tactics truck for Salinas already. Interesting football player. was a centre-back for a good chunk of time and has now been playing a little bit more on the left-hand side as well.

51:57Had a very good campaign at the under 19 Euros where Spain won and he had a very good game against Germany, which I watched. And yeah, his fundamentals are really, really good. Quite nice on the underlap. And I'll turn that all into an 800-word piece if he signs the Man United. Well, at least you've used it here in the comfort of Talk of the Devil's studio. It's not been wasted. on those hours the 1200 words are Mark Corrella that I eventually had to throw out because United signed Sergio Reguilón the ghost of Correa to forward it to Mario Cotigana in Madrid I suppose one interesting recall to Balde is he's been playing he's played with Marcus Rashford already at Barcelona last season and I did ask our Barcelona correspondent Paul about whether or not they were close oh good point actually last season and Paul gave indication that they they seem to get on well perhaps not Luke Shawmark as a rational connection but that if he was to arrive that could be a useful combination down the left hand side when Baldez really when Baldez fit he can get up and down the left hand side he has had an injury record that suggests his hamstrings don't quite like it when he's running at 100 miles an hour Okay well something to keep an eye on no doubt obviously keep you tuned to The Athletic throughout the remainder of this window for the very latest on Manchester United's transfer business and anyone else's as well.

53:19But that's it for Talk of the Devils for today. Remember, our live stream to coincide with the Champions League draw is coming on Thursday. Get yourselves subscribed, get those notifications on to find out exactly when we will go live on Thursday. For that, it'd be great to have your company. We'll preview the Ipswich game as Manchester United look to bounce back next weekend as well. But for the minute, Laurie, Carl, thank you for joining us in our new look studio. Andy, thank you for joining us on the line as well. And we'll see you all on Thursday. Thanks for your company. take care bye bye

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