Where does Leeds draw leave Carrick?

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1:29The Athletic FC

1:46This is Talk of the Devils, the Athletic show dedicated to Manchester United coming up today. It was a point in the end away at Leeds United to end a nightmare week for Manchester United. We'll get into the details of the draw at Ellen Road. We'll see where it leaves Michael Carrick, Nassandro Martina, Jason Wilcox and everyone else. After all the drama of post-Atletico and the statements and apologies and whatever else happened last week. And of course, up next, United back in Champions League action away at Como. We'll preview that game too. We're back in the studio here in Manchester. Keris is here, Laurie's here, Andy's joining us from home as well.

2:25Laurie, do we feel any better? I mean, it was better, but not better. So do you feel better? That intro could have been better, that question. I don't know, man. I don't really know what to ask because there's bits we can pick out that are positives, but there's so many fundamentals that are still not quite there. I felt better during that first half. There you go, better. There we go. certainly when they when united scored you know it felt okay they're actually they're built into this game the combination the weather the leeds storm i mean the leeds you know players were starting very aggressively obviously united had a little bit back but it certainly felt like an atmosphere yeah yeah and so that's a positive better but better uh how many times can we drinking game now for everybody at home better every time we do it oh you said it again yeah I mean I did think the combinations were quite good and the way that Carrick had set us up I think did give Leeds problems to solve They didn't expect it So you're always kind of thinking let's do something the opposition don't expect and Carrick has been accused of being too rigid in his thinking but at the same time the reason why he had to do that is because United haven't really got a striker really I know Mboumo can play there but it was kind of a fluid front four in a lot of ways but essentially it didn't have that focal point where Leeds and their centre-backs are thinking who do we mark, how do we drop in and it then I think enabled United to have those combinations particularly between Tielemans and Mboumo but Bruno definitely wasn't his best game but he was knitting things a little bit together Ahmad certainly as well so I think it gave Leeds issues to solve if Mboumo scores that first one does he get the chance for the second one but if he does score it and he gets the second one as well it's 2-0 and you're sort of thinking this is a really mature away performance that was what I thought at half-time mature away performance because as you say they'd ridden out the tackles the atmosphere they'd built into it they'd created a couple of chances it felt like it was building towards something and then obviously it changed at half-time Yeah, Keri's due with that back to basics is almost what it felt like in some ways Yes, there was a tactical tweet, which we'll talk about, because I think that was clever in terms of the bits that Laurie's been talking about.

4:49But matching Leeds' intensity, standing up to their aggression, being structured and organised. Maybe not brave enough on the ball, definitely not creative enough in the second half in particular, but back to basics. Yeah, I think that's a fair summary. I think off the ball, United were improved on what we've seen recently, but they're still not creating enough. they're still not scoring enough you talk about you can pick out really those two chances for Brian and Bermot and that's kind of it there were a couple of other half chances but there's not many clear-cut opportunities that they were able to pick out I think a lot of that owes to the lack of a striker but I thought the midfield was better there you go, drink but I thought that Belieber and Santos together provided that little bit more solidity a little more intensity in the midfield It wasn't as easy to carve through and carve open as we saw against Tottenham, for instance.

5:46So I thought it suited Tielemans more to be in that more advanced role. But everything forward of there was a real problem. Michael Carrick was very positive post-match, was keen to pick out the improvements. He spoke about the intensity, the commitment. He said how he'd spoken to the players that morning about the history of that fixture, what it meant to the club, what it meant to the supporters. and he felt that that was reflected in the way they played. I think it was to an extent, but I think most Manchester United fans would probably argue that to reflect the importance of that fixture is to win it.

6:22And it's disappointing that we're sat here again talking about the standards having dropped to the point where a draw away at Elland Road, a ground where Leeds haven't beaten United since 2002, I don't think, at Elland Road. The fact that we're talking about a draw there as a result, in inverted commas, is really disappointing. He was talking about it being a fresh start. To be talking about a fresh start seven games into the league season is not where any of us thought we'd be. So I felt very mixed after the game. I did think it was an improved performance, but it's still not good enough. Yeah, I think that's pretty much it, isn't it, Andy?

7:02I mean, you know, the standards at the start of this season have been way below what we all expected. Two wins from, what is it, 10 games now in all competitions is way below the results that we expect as well. And OK, there's bits we can pick out from Ellen Road more than the last week. Compare it to the Spurs game, for example, in the first half of that match. It's a big improvement, but the barometer is so low. And they need to be winning football matches again, don't they? You can call it a platform, you can call it a fresh start, you can call it whatever you like. but still just a point. Needs wins and has needed wins since the third or fourth matches of the season.

7:38Look, in isolation, a one-all draw against a relatively informed Leeds United at home is not a bad result. It wasn't a bad result last season. I think we spoke before the game and the feeling was that Leeds felt they really should be getting a convincing win at home to Manchester United. There have been too few of them and the way they flew out for the first 15-20 minutes. Leeds were aggressive, they were physical. But pleasingly, Manchester United were up to the challenge. And I saw a lot in the first half, which I was encouraged by. I thought the tactical shift was a smart one. I think Keris is right to point out the midfielders, but also I thought Lenny Yoro was the best defender.

8:22I thought Lissandro Martinez and Harry Maguire were up for the challenge physically. I thought Diogo Delo, I know he's a maligned figure among Manchester United fans, but I thought he had a decent game. So at half-time, you're talking about the bar being low, I think I tweeted something about small mercies. United were not behind, were ahead, hadn't conceded a stupid goal, hadn't been outplayed for large parts of the game and the bar is very low. That is a reality of where Manchester United are right now. That came in the second half, didn't it? Unfortunately, seven minutes in, it did come in.

8:57And there was a soft corner conceded by Nus Masraoui, who was brought on because Lissandro Martinez had had a knock. So that was a significant change. Soft corner, Dominic Calvert-Lewin, someone who Manchester United have looked at so many times over the years. He's doing really well for Leeds United. And he was strong enough to hold off Brown and Bumo. I thought Bumo's performance was patchy. You know, scored a good goal. Should have scored another goal. I just think there's times when it can be much more aggressive. So one all at Leeds. It doesn't really lift the mood too much because it wasn't a win.

9:38And look at the league table. That's what's setting the mood right now. But I also take the point that Manchester United were better in the first half. It's not a disastrous result, but you can't go singing and celebrating because Manchester United haven't won a game in six now. and it is 2-10 and I think you said underwhelming it's downright poor nowhere near good enough and that's where we are right now ahead of a trip to Cornwall on Wednesday Yeah we'll preview that game at Cornwall a little bit later we've got James Horncastle giving us a bit of a lowdown on how they're shaping up for the game and they're an interesting story in themselves the club how they've got ready for the Champions League but let's stay on Leeds for the moment so the team sheet obviously there was one name everyone had an eye on and that was Sandro Martinez as he starts, despite everything that's been said in the week.

10:27And I suppose Carrick was true to his word in saying that everyone had moved on from it. Whether that is wholly true, I don't know. But in terms of the selection, at least, he remained in the team. A bit of a tactical tweak as well, which we'll talk about in a moment. But do you think Martinez's words had any effect on that football match? Or how much of an effect do you think his words had on it? Yeah, possibly, to be honest. and this is maybe a critique of that you can have of Michael Carrick in that he's obviously trying to bring a sense of calmness to what was a very combustible situation that he took over from and it worked brilliantly you know kind of keep things steady his natural disposition I suppose is that way as well like keep things in house don't you know provoke too much you know certainly don't criticize the players Martinez is kind of you know sort of made up for it torn up to shreds by pulling out the pin and dropping the grenade.

11:21And even if you don't agree with what he's saying, even if there's some agitation between the players over it, as we've said this before, he definitely had some support from the players. Maybe there was one or two that also disagreed and took issue with the forum that he's expressed in, which he has apologised for. The forum. The forum. Is that better? Well, not necessarily the content when you read the statement. Sorry, yeah, sorry, yeah. I thought you were just taking me up on the word forum. Oh, no, no, you can use whatever word you like. That's one of the more basic ones you've used over the years, to be fair.

11:49I don't think I can use whatever words I like. Well, you can. I used rollicking on a podcast the other day, and I was told off by somebody for not going full-on bollocking. So is that okay? You've done it now. Okay, great. Well, listen, was there some bollockings behind the scenes for Lysandra Martinez? But even that kind of, you know, just energy around it puts people, okay, right, wow. Because, I mean, listen, Fergie used to just absolutely tear shreds off people, for example and it wasn't even that he was particularly serious about it so so gigs ran gigs was a classic case where he was like he would hammer him in a dressing room because he knew he could take it and it wasn't necessarily and it was it was that kind of agitation that got gigs his back up a bit and even it wasn't necessarily for him solely it might be for nanny next to him who couldn't really take a you know that kind of role invective um there we go it's a different word there for you uh so so so martine is saying what he said does that make people think we've got to put on a performance here against Leeds we have to it shouldn't have to be the case that you need that kind of energy to it but I do wonder if that had some kind of impact it felt like their minds were aligned it looked to me they knew their jobs I think in particular that first half when Lenny Jorreau is really switched on at the far post heading I think five balls away difficult crosses yeah it was really good so that kind of thing whereas obviously away in Madrid it was sort of flight you know first attack and and that they're you know scrambling and it's it's one nil and well there we go you've just the game plan is out the window there at that point so that certainly felt like it had an impact it's really fascinating that he has to that he started him straight away i mean it sensed that way didn't it from what he said in the press conference and the kind of briefing that united gave when they said he'd had his meeting internal disciplinary we consider the matter closed that obviously invited the chance for him to select him straight away i think you have to selected yeah if you say the mass is closed yeah although you could maybe say his performances have not been good enough but then there's no aid in heaven either in the squad yeah was it was it clarified why he wasn't there i believe on the united website said it was illness i think harrick said to to mutv beforehand but on on martinez i wonder if it actually sort of had a bit of a galvanizing effect on him because he will have seen that a lot of people were supportive of what he said he will have also seen quite a lot of people saying well this is all very well maybe but you've got to do your talking on the pitch.

14:04And, you know, to be fair to him, I think he did. I think you could tell from quite quickly, like one of Leeds' kind of first actions was a long ball to try and target Calvert-Lewin up against Martinez and try and target that physical mismatch. He's come undone in those situations. I mean, as recently as last Saturday, right? So, but I thought on the whole, he held up to it pretty well. He didn't, he could have gone sort of too far the other way and look how passionate I am and charged into challenges he didn't need to. I didn't think he did that. I thought he defended pretty smartly. I thought Maguire being there definitely helped balance it out as well.

14:38But on an individual level for Martinez, I thought it was a good half. And you could tell the difference when he was taken off at half-time, replaced with Masra. I also thought that that was just a weird change in the sense of the way the defence lined up after it. I mean, if you go through it, you had Diogo Dalot on the left. That's not where he plays. right back at left back yeah so you've got a right back at left back you've then got lenny who is doing really well at right back to be fair to him but is a centre back you then bring on a left back but you keep him at centre back you leave the left back no sorry you keep you i'm losing myself like you bring a left back on you put him on for the centre back leave him at centre back leave the right back at left back and leave the centre back at right back that's even if news Masraoui as a left back anyway.

15:30Well, exactly. You could classify him as a right back. Do you know what I mean? So it was just, I was confused, but I guess it was... And then the Euro wasn't really playing right back. He was sort of playing right centre back and right back. So it was a little bit... We'll get on to that. To be fair, I didn't think that... If anyone's there with us, well done. Is that like GIF? What's that GIF where the guy's got all the mathematical symbols in front of him? Yeah. Yeah. But I didn't think that, you know, so many of the defence were playing out of position is basically the point, right? I didn't think that was ultimately actually what cost them.

15:57And what costs them is, I think, moments of poor defending. I don't think Masraoui necessarily needs to head the ball out for a corner. I don't think he then does well enough to fight off Moremovic, if I've hopefully said his name right. And then Calvert-Lewin gets away from Belieber too easily. Then he gets away from Mbremo too easily. And all of a sudden, all that hard work that you've done to set up this specific tactical setup to deal with all Leeds' strengths, and then you concede a header from a corner. it's just it's so basic and that's what was so disappointing about it yeah it kind of undermined the the good work that they'd done with the shape with nullifying leads his threat in open play and maguire referenced it after the game it's like the whole match you go to a place where you know they're going to be strong on set pieces you shouldn't be conceding from a set piece because you've prepared for it you should be ready for it um and right let's talk about this shape because well we've just scratched our heads trying to work it out ourselves but basically i think the way Maguire described it after the game it was like a five at the back when United were out of possession and a four at the back when they were in possession it basically hinged on whether Ahmad was chasing back with Goodmanson leads left wing back or whether he was pushing forward and pinning him back but it worked didn't it and that that's a an innovation from from Carrick that people have been asking for I think the box midfield as well of Tielemans and Bruno Fernandes in front of andre santos and carlos belaba similar to atletico in a way again that worked too and this is what we want if if these are the tools that karik has got to play with then he needs to be able to use them better and the players need to be carrying out the instructions to the best of their abilities as well a couple of points from that with maguire i also thought it was very interesting this he insinuated that the team had lacked bravery at key points he knew about that game more than any other I think a criticism of Ruben Amorim that he wouldn't change tactics and I think it's to Michael Carrick's credit that he did and and that it was working and Kerris is right where Martinez was doing well he was having a decent game but he looked like he was carrying an injury towards the end of that first half but him coming off definitely affected Manchester United adversely you mentioned Ahmad as well I don't think Ahmad had a good game he frustrates me when I'm watching him because he struggles to go past players and it's the hardest thing for for somebody to do he did put a lovely cross in and Manchester United were at best when they were breaking so tactically I think that was part of it soak up the pressure Ahmed was clattered a couple of times as well it's a very feisty game I'm watching it in the first half thinking this referee's letting everything go here and then there was a card and there could have absolutely been other cards and Ahmad as well was fouled in I think a yellow card challenge right near the end but I thought the midfield so Bruno was pushed out out of position more but I thought it helped Juri Tielemans because he played ahead of Carlos Baleba and I thought Tielemans provided three of Manchester United's most creative moments in the first half he certainly set up the goal and that was one of his best performances, at least in the first half.

19:14Like the rest of them, he was less effective in the second half. We keep saying this in matches as well. We're splitting games into two and I don't like this. I hope that we get a complete Manchester United performance one of these days. But he made the big changes, partly because of injuries and there are a lot of injuries. When the game finished, Harry Maguire was the only defender in his natural position. so it really was needs must and we spoke a lot about the lack of left back coming in over the summer but you've also got three players who could play in that position who've been out injured I thought Santos his physicality worked in the middle away at Leeds and that was needed because again they were flying into challenges Goodmanson was absolutely wired right from from the start Yarrow out of position, doing very well.

20:09But Labour, he brings in energy. So I'm encouraged by his start. I know he's yet to play in a Manchester United win, but physically, I think him and Santos do work. So some good could come from all these players missing. Santos's stock has risen from where we were a week ago when he was being used as a lightning rod for criticism for being a£50 million signing that has never played. He's now played well or okay, you know, six, seven out of ten in two matches. But the tactics, when I saw the team, I wrote it down at the start. I thought, okay, this is... And then the game started. I'm going, this is actually...

20:49Wait a minute. This is nothing like what I thought it would be. You had Tielemans and Bruno almost as false strikers and then Bruno out of position. I don't think Bruno had another good game. again he just doesn't seem like he's with it he's moaning he got booked whether that was for a challenge or for dissent I wasn't actually sure at the time so he's a player who needs to get back I think it was a challenge that then went quite a long way on after and got pulled back wasn't it yeah exactly it could have been anything don't know what for he didn't actually really touch the guy though loads to be fair who had got away with one Ampadu had got away with one before that was it on Bruno as well?

21:30probably that's probably what he was whinging about yeah so yeah so credit for the tactical shift uh discredit is that a word for not being able to carry it through for for the full 90 it was working and with all those players missing it looked very narrow at times i think the key to it being even better would have been for amad to be more effective for brian and bumo to be more effective for Mbumo scored a lovely goal but he should have scored another he had a free header there he didn't even hit the target just before he scored so yeah it's a big blow that Manchester United do not have a recognised centre forward that they're having to tweak the tactics like this but as in Madrid United are still creating some chances I'm not saying that we should have won that game 3-1 because Leeds also had chances but amid the the positives that we're picking out I think there's room for improvement with some of those plays as well yeah on the ball definitely in terms of the creativity because I don't think they could have won 3-1 because I'm not even sure they created three goal scoring opportunities

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24:30And Bumo, it's a good job. He is scoring some of the chances because he's literally the only one scoring or getting the positions at the moment to score. I think that's four for the season for him. So obviously it makes him United's top goal scorer. Just think on the ball, there was a passage of play in the second half when Bruno Fernandes had a shot just wide. I think you wrote in the piece that that was his only touch in the opposition box in the entire game, that shot. But it was about the only point where you actually watched the team string a sequence of 10, 15, 20 passes together. And they actually looked good when they did that.

25:03and maybe them not doing it more or not doing it at all aside from that is the point of bravery that Maguire was referring to, that they needed to be braver, they needed to take more chances and again we're getting this, there's a lack of confidence in the group and they just need to sort that out, don't they? Yeah, I think lack of confidence is definitely one element of it. I think you can see that in some of the defending, you can see it sometimes in some of the build-up. I think Bruno at times has maybe slowed play down in situations where last season I think he would have progressed it, would have been a bit braver with the next pass.

25:40But it's not just a him issue by any stretch. I think that the key reason that United are not scoring goals for me personally is that they don't have a centre forward. I think Brian Umbermo is a great player, but he, you know, I've been frustrated by, you know, a very fluid kind of front three or front four works. If at least one of those players, ideally two or three, are in goal scoring form and are able to score opportunities from different parts of the pitch. I don't think United really have anyone who is in that form at the moment. Certainly not Bruno Fernandes, Mateus Cunha is not getting as many minutes.

26:15Marcus Rashford still hasn't had any end product and Bermot is really the only one who is even approaching any kind of consistency in front of goal. And even him you critique him as well. And even him, he's missing good chances. That header, there was I think one against Atletico as well. Took two against him. It goes back to the transfer policy though, doesn't it? It goes back to the whole argument of last week and what Martinez had to say. Yeah, absolutely. I think you can look at... It can be both. I think people get caught in wanting to pick one and I think both things can be true. So you look at yesterday, the only attacking options that were available to Michael Carrick on the bench are Matthias Cunha, who comes on for six minutes, Marcus Rashford, Joshua Xerxi, Shea Lacey.

26:58If you count Mason Mount as an attacking option, which I probably wouldn't. I thought he was brought on in more of a midfield role. Those are the only options. Should they be the only options? Probably not. Is Carrick getting the best out of them? Also, no. I thought Kunja should have had more time. I thought, you know, Rashford, I know he's carrying something, but spaces were opening up. Could he have been, if he was fit enough, brought on to help exploit some of those, you know, Xerxes, Lacey, neither of them have, you know, Lacey's only had really one chance and nothing in the Premier League since then.

27:34Xerxes has not been playing well as an impact sub, but I thought he was better against Tottenham last week. There's limited options, and the options shouldn't be as limited as they are. but you've also got to try and get the most out of what you've got, because these are the options that you've got until January or until players return from injury, whichever comes first. So there's not a lot of use in just saying they're not good enough. Where does this all leave Michael Carrick, Laurie? Oh, okay. Pivot there. I thought we were going to keep going on the tactical discussion and whether you actually signed a striker in the summer.

28:06We've done it, haven't we? I think we all agree that they should have done. But they didn't. Okay. Yeah. Unless you've got a pertinent point to make. It's just more evident, isn't it, when you're facing a team that they've got a striker who does that in the six-yard box. And as Andy said, you know, he was a free transfer from Everton when he went to Leeds, for example. So I'm not saying that they could have predicted this current situation back then, but clearly adding centre-forward has been an issue for years. And Sesco was the one, but they knew obviously that he was perhaps needing more recovery time in the summer than we anticipated.

28:38and I think that was the moment when they should have gone we need to get an alternative for him in case I think Cesc's injury is the exact thing that made me think not understand the policy of not getting someone else because if they knew that he had this problem and that was throughout pre-season like we said on the last show as well because he'd not played a minute he'd not even trained and obviously they knew it was a persistent problem that had actually plagued him throughout last season as well even before we even knew about it yeah Yeah, so just on his goal, it's brilliant centre-fold players, isn't it?

29:11Calvert-Lewin, you know, in terms of the strength and the actual touch and finish. Do you know another thing, actually? Sorry, Laurie. How good is Benjamin Sesko? We've seen glimpses of how good he is. Didn't you say he was going to score 25 goals this season? Well, yeah, I know, but it was a bad take, I'm not stiff, you remember. Was it 25 that you said? Something like that. Okay. How good is he? Because we don't actually know yet. I either do. That's the other factor, that you're also relying on a player that you don't actually know what his true merit is, in a way. He is also a different profile than anyone else in that United squad.

29:40I think that's the, you know, when we talk about the front, the forward line being very fluid, it needs something to tie it together. It needs a focal point and he can be that. He's shown how productive he can be in spells, but that injury, you're completely right, Ian, has stopped us seeing what that looks like over a period of time. So that's the frustration is here is your marquee striker who even then has had, you know, half of a good season, a lot of that was coming from the bench and it's credit to him and to Michael Carrick as well for how he used him that he had that impact but we've not seen what it looks like over a period of time but I think he's still you know the profile that that they are missing sorry I interrupted you I was just going to sort of add a little bit of praise to Mbumo in that um yes he's missed chances the ones in Madrid were frustrating the first one Erlen Road he should have scored but at least he is getting himself in those positions because the run for his actual goal was brilliant you know, round the back, was it Justin that he kind of got the wrong side of and the timing of it had to be spot on and Telemans' cross is brilliant, you know, to dig out from there so you've got the quality there at least but it's obviously then sharing the load and I mean, so Kunye came on second half and he's been playing a lot so I could understand him not starting that game because I was like, he's played a lot and for me he hasn't really done an awful lot okay the goal at Fulham aside but he comes on and he tries to shoot from 20 yards when he should pass it you know it's but then he scored at Fulham so he's probably thinking well I'm gonna get but he just he shoots a lot anyway so that's by the by where does it then leave Michael Carrick yes is the is the question you asked and is clearly still the pertinent one he needs a win doesn't he he needs you get into the stage of it's almost was it was it Mark Hughes that had like loads of draws for Man City I'm going off piece here a little bit but and it's almost like can you really act any kind of way when you keep drawing um you know it's not like bad enough where you're like we have to make a change but it's obviously not good enough to the point where we're behind you and it feels this kind of limbo situation I mean Carrick called it a reset at Ellen Road I guess maybe Martinez's outburst brings that you know lens to it but let the blood out let The blood out, mate.

31:56Yeah, that's a good phrase for it. But I still don't know. There were still the same problems, weren't there? So he needs a victory to kind of just really put those doubts to the side because I think they will grow another draw. Then you've got Bournemouth, isn't it, the next home game. They enjoy playing Old Trafford. They won against Sunderland. It's obviously the more even with draws, that will increase the scrutiny, no doubt. I don't think he's losing his job off the back of that Leeds result. I think he's better when there's adversity around. I think he's come out of his shell a little bit more.

32:35He said he enjoyed last week. That's nice. I'm glad someone did. I know I didn't. No, I didn't enjoy it either. I'm not enjoying Manchester United at the moment. This is something that's supposed to bring you joy and you know there's going to be good and bad results, but I'm just not enjoying it. I put a message in our group. yesterday before the game didn't I this this feeling of doom before matches and that that is how I feel and then the game starts and I do think right I can enjoy this okay we've got to six minutes without conceding a goal this is looking brighter but I think 48 seconds right he's in a very difficult job and I think he's he's doing all right let's forget the results for one minute in terms of the way he's communicating um is dealing with pretty tricky subjects the martinez thing last week i mean what you what you do if you are his manager how do you answer that question when you're directly asked about it because it was clearly a grenade thrown into the dressing room and i think the way that he smothers um some difficult questions is to to his credit i think the way that he came out before the game talking about a reset and about the good training i don't not believe him it's just harder to believe him when you don't get a win because as laurie says when you're only drawing matches you're not stood on a on a on a tall hill to shout i'm mixing everything up here aren't i you can't be shouting from the rooftops too too much so i think these metaphors are a symbol of united's performances to be honest and a little bit mangled but also kind of get into the point maybe is is i think he's is an intelligent man a pal of mine this morning who i respect um messaged me and just said carrick's handling everything really well he's got a really high emotional intelligence i said why just say that he said because he's super calm it doesn't get drawn into any negativity he doesn't flicker when he's getting grilled he's excellent on friday it could have been really messy but he's diffusing situations um brilliantly and it's a currency of the management and cheers for that Lisa Carrick that guy's a Manchester United fan who sent me that who was in the away end at Leeds yesterday he runs a decent sized business in Manchester he's someone who I listen to but as I'm saying this I know there'll be people and I saw the reaction online yesterday a lot of people just want him to be sacked they've had enough I saw people before the game going he'll lose his job next week I've had no evidence of that whatsoever ever I think there's a there is a patience with him but we say in every single podcast he absolutely needs wins yeah and the away end actually was showing quite a bit of support from yesterday as well you had that moment at the end Kerry so you would have noted of of him um you know lingering a little bit longer than usual maybe um and even at the start you know singing his name before kickoff at Ellen Road so he's not lost the away end yeah no I asked him my family who were in the away end yesterday like what was the reception like from where we were in the press box it it looked like applause it didn't look like you know they're roaring his name but you know it was a and they said yeah no it was it was overwhelmingly positive i think as andy's just touched on like the reaction online is is a very different thing but i wrote in a sort of um in like a sort of conversation piece that three of us did last week about you know how much pressure is he under I think we do just need to remind ourselves a little bit of how long Ruben Amorim went on and I'm not saying this to say that it will end the same way or that they're the same person but more as a note of like the tolerance of the hierarchy and their their desire to maybe be a bit patient think about Grimsby think about Everton I'm sorry to say it but like think about Grimsby think about Everton at home think about finishing 15th he kept his job through all those things the thing that lost him his job and he said it so many times he talked himself out of a job I don't think Michael Carrick's in any danger of doing that and I did find it quite interesting Carrick yesterday in the press conference what one of his last answers he spoke about um he said like over a period of time here thinking I think he means you know at United there's been a cycle of when things aren't going well you go in a different direction I read this is you know talking about changing managers he's not always 100 % clear in what he's saying but basically the way I read it was there's been a cycle of when things don't go well you make a change rather than sticking with it and seeing if you can push through it together and we need to be stable enough to avoid doing that and in principle i agree with him but i also completely understand it's really hard to sit there every week and fans being asked for patience when results aren't there because no nobody thought that seven league games into the season it would already be how patient can we be you know this was not the expectation and it's not meeting the standard that was expected for me that doesn't mean that Carrick should lose his job but I think both things can be true it can be not good enough and there can still be room to improve it yeah I think also there needs to be a reminder of what the standard should be shouldn't I mean the barometer has already fallen this season to the point where we're picking out what we can of performances but you know they're in the bottom half of the table it's just the miles away from what we were thinking they would be even at this stage of the season and sometimes you carry it you just think I think he deserves praise for how he dealt with the Martinez stuff in the press conference last week I think the fact that it feels like there's there's a united front at least in the public perception that the club has moved on from what could have been a very combustible moment Carrick unquestionably in the way he's delivered the message basically as as defused that but sometimes I do want him to be a bit critical I do want him to be a bit more spiky with what he's seeing really because you want him to acknowledge sometimes that it it isn't good enough actually just touching on Andy's point there about him sort of defusing situations I think I think that is definitely a thing to give him credit for because it has been very complicated but then you also sort of want that proactivity from a manager if you're the face of the club and you're the one being asked questions you want that kind of assertiveness and that belief that you generate now obviously he's been able to do that in his interim spell by being very good at interpersonal skills picking teams you know understanding what it needed in that moment now this feels like just another you've got to have gears haven't you got to have gears so uh unless you're driving an automatic and United are definitely not an automatic car.

39:10Metals are all over the show today, aren't they?

39:16But two things on that also in United's standards. Well, United's wage bill is probably like the fifth or sixth highest now in the Premier League. They obviously are tightening the budget with the players they're signing. So we've already listed, haven't we, the players that they went through previously before getting to the midfield as they actually signed. I still like the look of Belieber even in that game against Leeds there's a few little moments a little flick I was very Patrick Vieira wasn't it so it's a Nicky Butt about how difficult Patrick Vieira was to play and Fergie used to say don't let him do that to you and he's like well he's a good player sometimes you can't help it they shielded Santos and Belieber shielded the defence which has been a weak point for United so far this season they provided much more of a protection for them than we've seen in previous games which is definitely a point of progress yeah and so there we go That's on sort of Carrick and you've addressed a situation there that clearly needed addressing.

40:09And I do agree with him in the sense of if you keep changing the head coach as it is now, you're just going to have the cycle repeat. The players will think at different moments, do we really need to listen to this guy? Is he going to stick around? Who else would you actually have right now, by the way? I think when we have these discussions, you need to find a solution, not just sort of get him out and get all angry about it and say, I've had enough. Again, I go back to it and maybe it's the emotion in me growing up as a United fan, but you've got somebody there that clearly did good things with the club in the most pressurised situations, won trophies, the top trophies that you could possibly win.

40:47Also, between Michael Carrick's interim appointment as head coach on January 17th and the end of the 25-26 Premier League season, and Manchester United won more league points than any other team. They're still up there as well, even if you include this season, right? I mean, but it's the fact that that has become this, isn't it? And that's what you need him to get back to as quick as possible now. Yeah, but it is fine margins. They were obviously winning games last season that maybe they might have drawn this season. And that's to do with having Cesc available, in my opinion, having Bruno perform at his top abilities, and he isn't right now.

41:19And what is that about? Is that about the fatigue that he's having, the injury that he's sort of carrying that Carrick's touched on, or is that because his mind is like Martinez? I don't know. I'm speculating here, but frustrated around the signings that have been made or this kind of momentum, here we are again, because he's been at the club for so long and he's kind of carried the club for so long. But I go back to it in terms of Carrick, and I had the same feeling with Solskjaer, and maybe I'm biased and blind to it, but if you have somebody as the figurehead of your club who's already done stuff with your club, the emotion of that if they're able to succeed is better football is about memories we're supposed to enjoy it Andy said yeah we're not enjoying it right now and I agree that's still a very valid point to put into all this debate around Carrick but if he can turn it and it goes in a positive direction I think that's going to feel so much more satisfying for fans

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44:34Well, it needs to turn, that's for sure. Despite the draw at Ellen Road feeling like a little bit of a platform, like Michael Carrick said, There's still far more that needs to come from him and his team. We're hoping it will come straight away on Wednesday, away at Como in the Champions League. And the Athletics' James Horncastle has given us a little preview of what to expect. So the Comasca are getting ready for what is arguably the biggest game the Senegal has ever hosted. This is one of the smallest grounds in the Champions League by the famous league. and you have to give the club a lot of credit for getting it ready because I think a lot of people didn't expect it to get a license to have Champions League games.

45:19They thought they'd be playing in Sassuolo, in Reggio Emilia or in Udine instead of in Como. But the club, after their final home game of last season, knocked down one of the stands, rebuilt one, made it compliant for UEFA regulations. They've been adding the amenities you need to host a game of this magnitude. And Cesc Fabregas, the coach who set out once he retired from playing with Como to be where he is today, he was saying it's incredible that three years ago this team was in the second tier in Italy and now they're preparing to face Man United. Como are a team that does not have a history and tradition of playing in Europe.

46:02So this is all new to them. It didn't look new to them when they beat RB Leipzig. so handsomely in their first Champions League home game at the Senegalio on Matchday 1. Matchday 2 was a bit of a wake-up call for them at De Coype in Rotterdam, where they lost to final, but they played well, dipped a bit when Asandiau went off. He's a fitness stout for this game, as is Trevor Chalabar, who went off at the weekend. But still, you know, common play, very avant-garde style of football, very attacking front foot it's a very young team and a fearless team and Fabregas worked a lot last season making them have continuity which is ultimately why they ended up in the top four where they didn't expect to be so as much as it's a young team it's one that's not phased for them for the big nights and this will be one of the biggest nights of all for Como So I think United will be in for a real game because Fabregas, as much as we talk about his coaching tree in the same way we've spoken about Xabi Alonso's in the past, he's so difficult to read.

47:17I think a lot of people think because of his Catalan background, playing for Barcelona, he's very influenced by Pep Guardiola. I think he's spoken about Wenger's approach to young players, Conte's approach to mentality. obviously had Conte at Chelsea I remember when he was in the second tier was the first time I went to talk to him when he was at Colmour and he said look I don't have the players to play how I'd want so I have to adapt to playing Cillia B football and doing the best to get out of this division and he adapted so he's very chameleon like Cesc so I'm looking forward to seeing what he's got cooking for Man United on Wednesday Yeah I think we all are James, thank you for that preview, let's be excited about a Manchester United game, it's felt like a while like we can feel like that but there is um there is a real genuine excitement for this occasion in andy mittens household certainly andy isn't there new place new stadium i think it's the smallest stadium united would have played at in in europe i need to do my research and uh on that one pretty scruffy from outside so you've got this contradiction of this absolutely beautiful town on the shore of the lake, just north of Milan.

48:28It's a really hard ticket to get for Manchester United fans. There's loads of people asking for tickets because the stadium's so small, the allocation's so small. I've watched them play, watched them play last year. And Cesc Fabregas has done an incredible job. We should also mention that Como have got incredibly wealthy owners. That helps as well. But they've been really smart in their recruitment as well. I mean, they signed Lucas de Cunha, who was at Nice, an Ineos club, for half a million euros. And he wasn't considered good enough for Nice. And he's now Como's captain. That's really smart recruitment.

49:05And I think James' description of Fabregas being a chameleon is good. And that's to his credit. Luis Enrique often picks Cesc Fabregas out as someone who's really surprising him with how well he's doing in management. It's going to be a very difficult game. They're going to be totally up for it. they're fifth in syria they did really well to get into the champions league this is a town city where most of the people there support one of the Milan clubs or Juventus but they are they're they're on an absolute wave they're flying reminds me a little bit uh although the construct is totally different if Atalanta a couple of years ago where Manchester United went and just met this wall of whoa Man United are in town Cristiano Ronaldo's here blah blah blah no I've not got those names now but definitely something to to look forward to and it's actually a big game we say before every single game but it is a chance for Manchester United to to get a win that we desperately need yeah it's a huge game again and it's an opportunity to provide properly a platform with a victory properly a fresh start with a victory even some of the the romance of of the occasions to come in the Champions League the only way you can get to those latter stages and those big nights at Old Trafford and everything else the knockout games is to try and get past the point United are at the moment because you don't want the Champions League league phase to start going the way that the Premier League's going right now.

50:36No and obviously there's a bit more space isn't there for slip up shall we say in the Champions League particularly when you've won the first game convincingly and that there's obviously games that you can see coming up the way you can go okay, they should be picking up points there. I'm really intrigued to see how this one goes because obviously Como have been on this rise. You know, it's at this stadium where it's going to be intimidating maybe or maybe just sort of an unusual atmosphere. It's small. It's certainly like an unusual place. Well, I thought Andy was going to say Bournemouth when he said it's who he reminds me of.

51:07You know, that rise and then the sort of, you know, this kind of intimacy of the stadium, should we say. Yeah, I mean, there's going to be fans, United fans are travelling, and you might know this, Keres, but the United fans are travelling without tickets, presumably just to experience Como. Are they going to go out on a gondola or whatever it is? They don't want to have FOMO from not getting to Como. Let me do my lining. I'm just about to finish my FOMO from Como. Jesus. Anyway. And also when James was saying about the cooking, I was thinking, I'm going to see James over there. You know, I hope there's some nice Italian pasta that's being cooked.

51:39But as far as the actual football, Andy knows what he's talking about. I don't really. so I'm kind of going into this with a naive sense of wonder and hope. Yeah, okay. I like how you let me finish that one where I was clearly struggling, in other words. I never know what to let you finish, to be honest. Let's talk about some of the players involved. You mentioned Trevor Chalaba, who's an injured out for this game. I think there's Robert Sanchez from Chelsea as well, two players you'll know from covering them. That means that Willy Kamboala actually might come into the starting line-up, who's also at Como, who obviously Manchester United fans are very familiar with.

52:16There's Moise Kane as well, who United have been linked with in the past, who had a spell at Everton. So there's a few familiar names, not least Fabregas, I suppose. Yeah, there's definitely familiar faces, particularly for those of a Chelsea persuasion, which I'm not, but obviously was covering them last year. Trevor Chalabra, I think, will be a big miss. He was someone who was often kind of a lightning rod for a lot of criticism, but coming to it fresh as I did last season, I thought he was one of their better defenders, better centre-backs. Got sold this summer, academy graduate, pure profit, and now gets to go and live in a beautiful part of the world.

52:51So that's nice for him. He was then joined by Robert Sanchez, who at Chelsea, I think he could be a great shot-stopper on his day, but he always had errors in him. We'll all remember at Old Trafford when he was tipping it down last September and he got sent off very early on. The one of them will do, won't it? Yeah, that'll be helpful if he fancied it. But, you know, there's quality in that squad. I've not watched Como in Champions League or in Serie A yet this season. I'm not going to lie and pretend I have. But, you know, the names are recognisable, are names that Premier League clubs have been linked with if fans want to kind of use that as a barometer.

53:31The guys that I'm familiar with are the Chelsea guys and they are good players. I think Chalabra will be a miss for them. Nico Paz obviously someone that we've heard an awful lot about as well so intrigued to see how he does but like this I don't think I'm being unrealistic or arrogant to say that this should be a game where United should be picking up three points you know this is a big opportunity to go make a mark on the Champions League stage it'll be a massive occasion for Como Man United coming to town being in the Champions League everything we said wasn't sure if it was going to be able to be at their home ground or not it's a chance to for United to go and and stamp their authority on a game I think you know a couple of attackers particularly Cunha particularly Rashford should have sort of fresh legs after not playing very much or not at all at the weekend that there's issues with the depth in the squad but there are options that Michael Carrick can can call on and if you know this wants to be taken seriously as a fresh start then it I would say it's a good opportunity to to go and show what they want to be about yeah okay let's talk about the injuries and if we can you've mentioned it already in the podcast so we think Rashford is managing some sort of hip issue which may be why he wasn't used off the bench at Ellen Road so whether he's going to be fit enough to start this game or not is maybe in question you've got Lissandro Martinez who I think came off with a thigh issue at half time against Leeds he also looked like he'd maybe hurt his foot in a challenge with with Calvert-Lewin but it was the thigh that was referenced after the game.

55:04Carlos Belaiba was just cramp, Carrick said, but then again I suppose there's a question on him about whether he can start again and how many games he can start a week right now as he builds up his fitness. That was his full Premier League debut of course against Leeds. You had Aidan Heaven missing the game, potentially through illness like we mentioned before. Cobby Manu and Luke Shaw both missed the game with injury, not sure whether they'll be back. Benjamin Sesko, there's no time frame on him so I guess he won't be available Patrick Dogu's still missing with a hamstring problem as well there's plenty of headaches there isn't there yeah there is and you could do with a couple of those bodies coming back because it's starting to mount up especially in defense and I'm glad you covered the Sesco it's a big big miss I think Sesco will be a really good player but it well he's not playing then it's not it's barely worth even even talking about so you've covered the United lads with Como Trevor Chalabad limped off in the game at the weekend against Fiorentina so he is a doubt I spoke to him for an hour last week actually and he's got an incredible story from Sierra Leone playing at Chelsea going through South London really impressive young man if he does play I hope he's not impressive with Willy Kambuala he didn't make the initial Champions League squad so I don't think you can update and add on to that.

56:29Important clarification. Can't believe I'm now the Como specialist, do you know what I mean? Doing a good job of it, mate. Carry on. Can I just pick up on something there? So have you done an interview with Trevor Chalaber? Will that go live, even if he isn't featuring? Or are you kind of hoping? I'm just asking the question. I certainly hope so, because I took ages to get him. I spoke to him, and I really enjoyed the interview with him, and he's got a good story. And I spoke to him on the day that he'd been called up for England, so he was in a good mood, and he did it in his car just before he went to one of his Italy lessons.

57:00So it would be a shame if that wasn't published, especially as I've already done it. My deadline is tomorrow morning, so I hope it goes out there. I mean, he doesn't just talk about the Man United game and his stuff on Man United is quite general, you know, which gutted me a little bit because it's like, yeah, yeah, just another big club. But, you know, there's loads of massive clubs now. And I'm like, no, no, what you're supposed to say, mate, is I grew up watching Man United in Sierra Leone. they were massive I dreamed of playing them but no just like yeah just another club up north innit I'm being slightly dismissive of that so hopefully that will go out and he gives some good insight into what is actually happening at Como as to why why did he leave the Premier League to go to this really small club in Italy located in an absolutely stunning location by the way so that certainly helps him I might read this then Andy actually this might be good match prep for me you know like that that Romanian piece that you wrote yeah with that team in Bucharest make a big change on the Romanian piece and actually read it and then that might help you going into the game I mean if Chalabar wasn't to be playing in the game he potentially would have FOMO from Como come on I think this has got legs I just thought I'd let you say it because I interrupted you before I think we don't need to mention it again well I appreciate that thank you very much you're very welcome for laying the red card there for me good line right what have we got less to talk about Lenny Oro as well he'll be missing the game of course two through suspension so what does he do carry it does he does he continue this little formula that he's found with the box midfield and the the adaptable shape or because it's a completely different opposition who are likely to play a completely different way do we see a tweak again felt to me like the sort of back four at times back five was was more as a response specifically to leads and their threat so i wouldn't be that surprised to see him kind of revert back to what he has been doing but then he's struggled against back fives as well well yeah exactly formula that's been in his head for a while exactly so i think that was predominantly what that was to counter rather than it being sort of a permanent shift that we're going to see particularly because of the problems that you know it's not the reason that united lacked a focal point but i don't think it helped i think it was a little bit too fluid up front without really anything tangible elements then that you think you can take from it well the element that i would probably look to take from that Leeds game forward is the midfield pairing for now while Kobi Menu's unavailable.

59:25But then that throws up a question mark because Santos and Beliba started against Atletico, again against Leeds. And then if it's again against Como and then it's Bournemouth on the weekend, that's really difficult. They're young lads. That'll be fine. Get them out. I don't think we've not got a timeframe for Kobi Menu, have we? No, no. I did make a call sort last week, but yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think it's a small muscle injury, but I could be wrong. Not too serious. So that's a, but you know, that is a big miss and is a big hit to the kind of depth as well. I guess the main people that I would be looking at probably are Mateus Kunja and Marcus Rashford because of how little they played.

1:00:03Kunja, six minutes, Rashford not at all on the weekend. I wonder if they will get a chance to come and be that fresh legs. I also think there is a question over how much Bruno Fernandes plays. that's not based on knowledge of how they're planning to approach the game but more just the fact that I think he's really struggled to influence games he's really struggled to have an impact on them whether that's, you know, we saw him try out wide against Atletico he was sort of, Carrick said after the game it was his normal position but it felt to me more like he was sort of switching in and out as a false nine yesterday and I didn't think it really worked it didn't really succeed in getting him in the game more.

1:00:44You know, is there a point at which if he's not having an impact on the game, even if he starts, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't start. Is there a point at which you say we've got to try something else? Because the player who has been our conduit and has been our kind of talisman all last season is not doing that anymore. Take him out of the line of fire and give someone else a go. I'm sure that's not what Bruno Fernandes would want. but I don't think anyone can be undroppable when it's not working. Yeah, I think that's a fair point. It would be a huge call for Michael Carrick and that's a big discussion that perhaps we can have on a future podcast as well.

1:01:22But for the minute, let's leave it there for Talk of the Devils. Thank you, Laurie. Thank you, Keris. Thank you, Andy, as well. Thank you all for joining us, of course, listening and watching along. We'll be back after Como, but there might be a little surprise for you between now and that episode. So make sure you get yourself subscribed, get those notifications on and if anything should happen to drop in the meantime you'll be the first to hear about it but thank you for your company and we'll see on the next one take care bye

1:02:11The Athletic FC.

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