Who will start the season in Man United’s midfield?

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2:00This is Talk of the Devils, the Athletic Show dedicated to Manchester United. Coming up today, what will United's midfield look like to begin the new Premier League season? Bruno is back. We've had our first sight of Uri Tielemans in red. We've had an injury scare for Mason Mount. Kobi Maynou is even back around as well. And could there be yet more to add to that midfield mix? We'll also have the latest from the PSG friendly, transfer updates of course at this time of year and there's a live stream on the horizon, more on that later. I talk the devil's live stream obviously, the very first one.

2:32Anyway, introductions. Andy is fresh from his trip to Gothenburg, just got off a flight actually. Laurie and Karl are also here, Laurie's fresh from the beach, away in a caravan in Wales. A cottage actually Ian, just to be clear. A cottage, sorry. It's me who does caravans. Andy feeling fresh, good trip? It's not fresh at all, mate. That plane from Gothenburg to Manchester was full of United fans, and more than one of them said to me, well, they commented on my appearance and it was not complimentary, but I don't feel fresh. Gothenburg is a fantastic city with an active nightlife. It comes alive in the summer.

3:06It was full of football fans, Manchester United fans, outnumbering PSG by 6 or 7 to 1. And lovely to spend a bit of time with not just Reds, but former players like Ronnie Jonsson and Jesper Blomquist, who's the world's nicest man, he's just won that award. Yeah, we've had him on the podcast before, haven't we? We can all vouch for that. Lovely, lovely guy. Right, let's jump straight into it then, Carl. We talked a little bit about this on the last show, but I think getting a first sight of Tielemans, also Bruno Fernandes being back, the injury scare for Mason Mount, it's maybe sort of complicated the idea that we had for the whole game.

3:43What do you think United's first choice midfield is actually going to look like with these options now for Michael Carrick? I am going to stick my neck out and I'm going to think United's midfield 3B Bruno Fernandes as your number 10, Uri Tielemans as your box-to-box player, Andre Santos as your holding number 6 on match day one. I think Maynou's going to be on the bench. How long until we start wearing t-shirts with a slogan on about Kobe Maynou needing to play games then? Oh, they'll alternate, don't worry. I think it's all going to be nice until at least the October international break, the long international break that I hope everyone already listening to this podcast needs to start getting ready for.

4:20Here's a long one. It's a lot longer than usual. Do you agree, Andy, from what you've seen on the preseason so far? Yeah, I just can't see like Andre Santos playing all the games and then just stopping. I think that given who the opponents are in the first couple of matches, if you're the manager, you're thinking you've got a chance. You deserve your chance. you've been playing well Tielemann's really impressed me when he came on as I said I sat next to Blomquist and he knows far more about football than me and he just kept saying he always looks to pass forward that's his first reaction, pass forward so I'd be saying Santos and Mount you know when he went off everyone was like oof, oof, oof but then someone said to me at half time I just think he was stood, someone stood on his foot which isn't nice for any human and then afterwards he walked from the mix zone and he looked absolutely fine.

5:11Not that I'm a doctor saying that he is absolutely fine, just saying it. He looked absolutely fine. Even though it was only mine, even though it was just a knock, it was still that sort of feeling that everyone had straight away when he went down and that's exactly the concern that was shown when you said on the podcast last week that his performances deeper in midfield might mean that there isn't a third midfielder coming. That was the response from a lot of people that would have concerns about that and perhaps more strong feelings on that topic. Certainly the feedback was pretty resounding on that potential outcome.

5:46It's one word for it, Laurie. Yeah. I hear you. I saw it. I've got friends that just messaged me direct anyway. So, you know, and when he went off, yeah, the same friends were pointing that out to me. so I'm glad that Andy has exclusively revealed his doctoral opinion he's given Mason Mount the clean bill of health facts confirmed but it did seem it was a precaution right gets a kick, goes off but I suppose that does play into the wider point on Mount I think he was doing that a little bit last season anyway if there was at all a concern come off, stay off training, whatever don't play because then it'd hopefully bring him back quicker or he wouldn't exacerbate anything.

6:28And in the end, that sort of worked okay. But I think if you're going to have him as a consistent performer in that position, you want more even than what he was doing last season, clearly. So I can understand the reservations, the concerns around that. And then I guess it gets a sharp focus 20 minutes into a game against PSG and Gothenburg. It would have been nice if he had another great performance and then perhaps those concerns could have been a little bit abated, although I appreciate pre-season is totally different to the Premier League. but to your original question to these guys I think that probably does then invite that possibility of Uri Tielemans going straight into the starting line-up because he came on and was so good and obviously he's Premier League proven he's massively experienced internationally as well so perhaps the reservation that you might have bringing a new signing into the starting line-up is less with him because of what he's done previously and yeah he was I think he just slotted it straight in really didn't he he looked like he had a good understanding with Bruno know his teammates and played in the way that you'd want a United player to play I know it's only a cameo so far but perhaps that does then feed into who starts that opening game against Hull Andy are you a doctor Mitten has the university given you a honorary doctorate yet well this is Carl Fishing because haven't you been given an honorary doctorate Carl are you I have a honorary doctorate I'm asking if Mr Mitten's been given one no I've not mate I've had a few missed calls from like small English cities like Oxford and Cambridge but I've never got back to them.

7:53In answer to your question, no. Right, we've got to get this sorted. I'm going to be on the phone to the university. I don't even know what one is. I still wouldn't qualify him to diagnose Mason Mount, by the way, just to clarify that. I know, but it'd be funny to call him Dr. Mitten. I'll do it. Can we actually call you Dr. Anchor then, based on that? I only make people call me Dr. Anchor when they've annoyed me. Okay, so do you actually get post that comes through the letterbox or into a posted system at your tower that says Dr. Anchor on it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mostly posts that I have dictated that I want sent to Dr.

8:27Does Leah have to call you Dr. Anker at certain moments? Only when I'm annoyed. Yeah, okay. As long as when there's an issue, an emergency issue in a restaurant or something, and someone said, is there a doctor in the house? You don't put my hand firmly down. That's the truest test. Just on Andre Santos, actually, Andy, you have seen and been at all the pre-season games so far. I think on balance, he is probably the player of pre-season for United. He certainly had a majority of minutes and he has impressed, really down to the simplicity of his game and some of the line-breaking passes, which was a big part of the data that we all looked into when he first signed.

9:06How good do you think he's been in these games? I think your description of me is accurate. I think he's been the best player. And he actually spoke to the media after the game. He came through to the mix zone and he did it in English. I know he's spent some time being in England, but I still think it can be quite difficult. He's 22 years old and he came across well. And he said he's really enjoying playing for Manchester United. And as soon as he heard of the club's interest, his wife says, we have to go there. We have to go there. I've dreamed of walking down Sir Matt Busby Way. She didn't say that to him.

9:37But he seems to be very settled. And when you speak to people on the football side, they're like, what he does off the ball. Someone said to me, he's tough, he's robust. And then he actually said when he's got possession, he likes to break the lines. So I don't think it could have gone any better than him. With pre-seasons, there can be a bit of a misnomer, but he's doing well, he's settling in. And he seems quite humble. All he said was, I just want to win every game. I want to win every game. I want to win every trophy. So no one's going to agree with that. He doesn't disagree with that, sorry.

10:13Sorry, no one's going to disagree. We'll all agree with that, Andy. Yeah. I mean, I don't think he will win every game and every trophy, so I will disagree with that. He's humble. He wants to win everything. He wants to win everything. Well, so do we. I mean, there's a kid from Rio de Janeiro who's done things well. And I think he got involved with the Brazil team when he was only 18. I just wish him all the luck in the world. And I hope that he can combine well with Tielemans, totally different type of player. and Bruno stays as Bruno and Mount comes back from his not serious injury. And then maybe there's another signing.

10:50We don't know whether that's going to happen or not, but I'm feeling all right about the midfield. Yeah, the competition, as you sort of name the names, Laurie, feels like progress from last season. Obviously, there's Manu Agate who's out of the picture with his injury at the moment. There's young players potentially who could enter the mix too. there could yet be someone else added maybe. Maybe Mason Mount's knock is the jolt that people need to maybe change their minds if they're in the balance with his situation. Yeah, you're losing Casemiro, aren't you? So you're losing, what was it, 10 goals last season.

11:26Has that been addressed? You'd question whether it has been. Although Tielemans can score, obviously. Yeah. But that kind of physical presence in midfield, that's what everyone feels. I certainly have reservations about that midfield being deep enough for a season when you're in the Champions League and the aspirations that United should have. It's probably progress in terms of being able to have two players per position more readily, more easily. I think from the first team to the second, we're debating, aren't we? Would it be Manu or Tielemans? Would it be Santos or Mount? I think they're all quality players technically.

12:01And so that is, I think, a positive as long as, again, they can stay fit. And probably that's the question that people have got. They've been scarred by seasons where fitness troubles have absolutely undermined United. So there is that in their minds. Although I do think that Carrick probably wants a pretty tight squad so that you haven't got excess players around the picture getting a bit disgruntled because they're not playing so frequently. So it's a balance, isn't it? It's tight to make sure that you're well-stocked enough, but also players have got enough opportunities to show what they can do.

12:35So, yeah, I'm still fascinated to see what they do towards the end of this window, because there is clearly upgrades needed or extra strengthening needed. And I think it probably just perhaps surprised a few people. It certainly interested me because I thought as soon as they signed Santos and Tielemans, still a third midfielder was being spoken about. And now it feels like they've altered or just had a pause to restock and think about what they would absolutely like. But yeah, we'll see how it goes from here in terms of the signings because we can get on to a few of the options, I suppose, as we talk about it.

13:13Yeah, we'll talk transfers in a moment, definitely. I mean, Carl, there's obviously two games remaining of pre-season. The small matter of Leeds in Dublin with an 80 ,000 capacity crowd at Croke Park, which will be an incredible spectacle even for pre-season. And then taking on, of course, Ruben Amarin's AC Milan next weekend as well in Poland. Do you think the Ruffer grabs these midfield positions then across these next two matches and in training between now and that whole game? I think every position. Really? Even goalkeeper right now, considering San Alman's didn't play against PSG due to illness.

13:45I think that now all the World Cup players are coming back. Well, hang on, let me cap that. I think every position that isn't Bruno Fernandes is the number 10. There was a couple I was thinking about. Bruno was definitely one of them. Lomans was another one, but go on, sorry. you can have some degree of conversation about proper, is that player close to the match sharpness or being fully fit? I don't know what Lama's health is right now, but if that's a cold that causes him to miss out on Leeds, then maybe it will be a conversation for Tom Heaton and others there. Tom Heaton's injured now as well.

14:17He went off with a hamstring strain. Oh, he did. Yes, he did. It was Dermot Mee. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think starting centre-backs, I think that could be up for a conversation. Is it going to be Harry Maguire and another? Or could it be Lassandra Martinez and Aidan Evan, for example? I think your fullback situations, they are... Possibly. I mean, you would assume it's going to be Luke Shaw and Diogo Dalo, but Masraoui's played well in phases. I will admit, at a glance, Masraoui with this new shaved haircut, at a glance, I thought it was in Bumo in two or three phases, particularly when he got forward.

14:51That's fun. And I think, yeah, yeah, some of these... This is a nice problem. I think there's a series of nice problems now coming for Manchester United. The gap between Meynou and Tielemans in a footballing sense is much, much smaller than the gap between Casemiro and Ugarte. And I think there are going to be fewer situations this season, this upcoming season, where Carrick will take a player off and the team's ability to continue playing at a certain level just dip and crater. It should hopefully stay in a good sense. The team looks good. I don't think I'm not saying using a T word yet I'm not going to talk about whether or not they're going to be doing certain things Can we clarify what the T word is?

15:31The T word is trophies Trophies yeah not title or treble a few people said treble as well The T word is trophies I'm not going to yet ask Andy Mitton what his new standard of quality will be Top four on a trophy we're back to it aren't we? You never know but there's definitely there's loads of phases of play watching United and Preezes and going this is good Carrick and his coaching team have them in a fairly well-oiled machine. One thing I really like about Santos is how he staggers his position based on his midfield partner. So he tries to always be higher or deeper, which just creates just a little bit more...

16:09It creates a different way United build the ball up. It turns it from more of a 4-2-3-1 into a truer 4-3-3, and it opens up some areas that wide where the centre-backs can pass the ball into. He's really, really intelligent. Santos is doing things that I do not expect a 22-year-old football player to pull off. I'm just enjoying how he is working in combination with the players around him and what Carrick seems to be building. It's quite nice. Just to pick up on that card, because that was something that I came away from the PSG game thinking, that actually the combination play, that the players seem to understand where they're supposed to be on the pitch.

16:47And even though you've got a few of the young players in there, and Conor O 'Neill who was there for the Athletic in Gothenburg wrote a nice piece on this in terms of the churn that United have gone through since Alex Ferguson obviously with different managers, different players, different systems and there is something to be said for that consistency that Carrick certainly employed at the end of last season and seems to be doing so in pre-season a few little tweaks here and there to see what a player like Lenny Oro might look like at right back or a different number six or Che Lacey at number 10 Mbumo or Ahmad on the right wing or up top.

17:22So little changes like that, but essentially it's been quite consistent. I think maybe that then shows itself in the performances, because it's certainly second half. There were some great... First off was more kind of Ahmad out of possession, attacking PSG as they're trying to pass it out. I thought it was great. He had a really good game. But second half, it felt like there was actually quite a few moves, third man runs, that kind of thing, where it needs understanding between the two teammates or three teammates. So yeah, I don't know. I was encouraged by that as well. A lot of heads up football, a lot of intuitive problems solving, a lot of one-touch passing.

17:53Instead of players dawling on the ball and really orientating themselves to face play, they're just hitting things around the corner, which is quite nice. They are able now more so, and this is with the caveat, it's pre-season, etc, etc, etc. But I've seen two or three phases where United are playing back to front, get down to one wing, realise that's blocked off by an opponent and go, okay, let's work the ball all the way back again and then get back down to the other wing as well. And it's that confidence that they don't have to rush everything all the time. There are two or three more players who are comfortable putting their foot on top of the ball going, what's the next best thing to do?

18:31And it doesn't necessarily have to be get the ball forward and run 100 miles an hour. So yeah, I'm feeling, I still want more football players. Absolutely. There's still two or three positions that I'm worried. I'm sure in the next 48 hours laureate I'm going to send you a text message going what's really going on with Benjamin Sasko Shinbine here but for now it looks good it looks good for pre-season. Okay I mean you've mentioned a few things there Kyle but Andy again having seen all of the pre-season and particularly this PSG game what else who else has stood out to you? Shea Lacey I know you mentioned very briefly there but you're starting to see as the season comes closer that some of the younger players are being left out.

19:16They're not travelling. They're going to be able to go on loan. They're going to be sold. But Shea Lacey is hanging in there. He's starting games. He's getting serious minutes. He's doing encouraging things. You know, that wasn't the full PSG team by a long stretch, but it got stronger with their second-half substitutes like Manchester United's did. But even a hybrid PSG team contained some fantastic players. and the way that they passed towards that first goal, the build-up was so impressive. It's horrible to watch as a Manchester United fan to concede so early, but the damage was done closer to the PSG goal.

19:57The way they passed out of defence when Manchester United's press didn't work and they passed beyond it was hugely effective. So the way United came back into it, I won't say they surged back because there were times in the first half when it felt like a pre-season, the intensity wasn't there. And the atmosphere was pretty flat. There's actually a game next door, a top flight Swedish game going on where there was a proper atmosphere. But it was a full house. And shout out to the Gothenburg Reds. They're a huge, really well-organised supporters club. They put a due on before the game. 13 or 1400 people turned up.

20:33And I think they enjoyed that Manchester United performance. There was enough in there. I did meet one guy in the lift of my hotel at 2 this morning who was complaining and it was really, really boring. What were you doing getting in at 2am, Mr. Merton? Not like me, is it? I walked home. I can't believe I missed Gothenburg and Andy was out until 2am. I know, Laurie's gutted, isn't he? This is why you weren't fresh on the flight, because you mentioned the nightlife day. I went, hang on. Well, by the time I'd done all my stuff, I didn't go out until like 9.35. Gothenburg on a Saturday night is absolutely...

21:02That's a normal time to go out, by the way. Andy, last time I went out with you, you were having half pints of 0 % Guinness. I don't think that helps you last till 2am. I've got worse as I've got older. This is me. I'm on the road all week now and I will be very, very professional, sleeping every night, looking after legendary goalscorer, Mr. Andrew Cole. My mum just said, does Andy want some sandwiches tomorrow? So I call him, do you want sandwiches tomorrow when you get to court? Nah, I'm all right, mate. Ridiculous, isn't it? You've got a lot to look forward to. 20-year-old me, They'll be asking players if they want sandwiches taken to Ireland.

21:40So I think a lack of injuries. I really like the fact you're talking about the style of football Michael Carrick's playing. I think when he speaks to the media this week, because Michael hasn't really done that, not done any external media so far. And I think if he's pressed on styles of play, I think he can hold his own there. What type of tweaks are we likely to see? I'm aware that I talked about the midfield then. I didn't even mention Kobi Maynou. I would like to see another midfielder. The demands of this season will be absolutely massive because probably going to be playing another 20 games.

22:14But I'm seeing positives. That is how I'm feeling. I've been at all the matches. I'm speaking to lots of people. I'm seeing things with my own eyes. And then I just see this online rage. Like I passed through Stansted the other day on the way to Gothenburg and people are proper losing their minds because Manchester United not signed a player that day. and I'm like, I can sort of get the frustration. I get that there should be more players. I get that the squad is still unbalanced. I get that in an ideal transfer window, all your targets are signed on day one, but it's not over. And credit to the players who are playing.

22:53So I'm feeling okay about Manchester United.

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24:51You mentioned Kami Manu before. He's one of nine players who've now joined up with the group in Dublin. Matthias Cunha and Senna Lomans, who missed the game against PSG with illness, are now part of it. Cal Darlow is part of it for the first time after joining from Leeds last month. JJ Gabriel was an interesting addition, joining back up with the first-team group over in Ireland for the week's training. You've also got Matthias De Ligt and Benjamin Sesko who were part of it. Maybe not part of full training, but interesting to see them part of it. Tienan Thompson, the youngster who's been signed from Spurs.

25:23And then there's Marcus Rashford-Lorrie, who we've done a podcast on. We've talked about the different aspects of him being reintegrated to the Manchester United first team. But to see him back for the first time, for pictures to be shared on social media, on the website, etc., etc., with Manchester United fans, feels like a bit of a moment. Well, he was the first picture, wasn't he, I think, in the Instagram post from United. Got to get those interactions up, mate. Got to get the interaction. Yeah, so maybe it's as simple as that. He's the biggest player that you could have. But also, you know, to be the kind of first name in this announcement, I suppose, you know, this post about who else is joining up.

25:59Yeah, it was, we didn't anticipate this. I didn't anticipate this, you know, for the last 18 months. But yeah, back at United, you know, he's going to be wearing a United shirt again. It's going to be fascinating to see how that all settles down. There's so many different aspects to it. I know we touched on them in a previous podcast and we'll do so again. I think for now, let's see, will he play against Leeds? Will he come off the bench or will it be more likely against AC Milan? Could his first game be against Ruben Amarin's AC Milan? The Ruben Amarin that obviously dropped him from that derby game for reasons that we've gone into previously.

26:34Yeah, it'd be fascinating to see how this all pans out because I still think it's a live issue in terms of where Rashford ends up. But obviously the status quo is a United player and that could well be the way that the window finishes. Yeah, OK. We'll definitely talk more about Rashford as we go through this pre-season and begin the new campaign as well. If you've not had a watch or a listen to the show that we did on Marcus a couple of weeks ago, then go back and have a look at that. Let's get into transfers then, because again, a bulging inbox of queries about Manchester United's summer transfer business.

27:08Andy mentioned it before, just how much of a clamour there seems to be for new players and new signings and people beginning to get a bit frustrated with the lack of action after Tielemans and Santos joined about a month ago. The main name, I think, Laurie, that's still getting mentioned is Lewis Hall. So Kerry's got in touch asking about him. Lots of people had to be fair. What do you understand the situation with Hall to be now then? Yeah, it's a complicated one, absolutely. I think what we can say is that Newcastle have indicated that he is not for sale, not going to leave. They've obviously sold Anthony Gordon, Sandro Tonale, Bruno Gimaraes has now gone to Arsenal.

27:51I suppose the point though is that United do like him for sure and that is an area of the pitch that they are looking to upgrade in terms of Luke Shaw's availability. He had a brilliant season last year but it was one game a week and can they rely on him for more than that? That's the big question and obviously that's why they're now addressing this part of the pitch. So, yeah, perhaps just it feels like it's going to be complicated, very difficult. But Newcastle have been here before, right, where they've said a player's not for sale. Look at Bruno, look at Alexander-Essac. I suppose it depends how much United want it and want to sort of go into battle for it.

28:29But, yeah, perhaps I think still, you know, have a look at that one. Other alternatives? I think, you know, George Salinas. I mean, Andy, correct me if I've said that wrong. Is it Jorge Salinas? Where's he from in Spain? Santander Jorge. Jorge, okay. Place for wrestling. Good luck. There we go. I think he's on the list of potential options. I think he's got a€60 million buyout clause, obviously, be a lot cheaper than Lewis Hall. But with Hall, you know what quality is and the fact that he's proven in the Premier League. He'd basically be your left-back for the next 10 years, isn't he? Whereas Sainas, I think, is a different profile of player and represented by George Mendes, I think.

29:12So obviously United have had experience of him already in this window when you look at Mateus Fernandes. So let's see what shape's up there. And it's interesting because you get a lot of people sort of saying Harry Amas as well. And he came on, didn't he, against PSG again. So he's been playing quite frequently in this pre-season. My information is still that the likelihood is that he departs. But will it be a sale or could it be a loan? There's sort of some debate, I think, around that at the moment. So, yeah, again, one to keep an eye on there. I spoke to Harry Amass after the game yesterday.

29:46It wasn't a very detailed conversation. He said, how are you doing? He said, all right. He said, are you feeling good? He said, yeah. Exclusive chat with Andy. Sounds good. He didn't fall for your charms, did he not, Andy? No, he didn't. He was polite, actually. I'm like you, Laurie, and I think I've touched on it on this pod. I cannot see a future of him in Manchester United's first team this year. He needs to be playing every single week. Yeah, exactly. I think the injury he got shortly after his loan at Norwich, probably threw a wrench in some plans. I think Amas is certainly good enough to be playing for a top-half championship team, and he could probably do a job if he was playing 10 to 15 minutes, coming on for Luke Shaw in some matches.

30:30But right now in his career, for him to go to the next level, he needs to be playing week in week out playing senior team football and that doesn't look at Manchester United right now so if he goes out I hope it's on a loan if it goes out and it's a permanent deal I hope someone out there has the wherewithal to put a very nice buyback clause so we can get him back if he's good or a sell-on fee if it turns out perhaps he's good but perhaps not Manchester United good There'll be both of those in there don't worry Yeah If it's a permanent deal it's there That's a very mature way of saying that Carl I was about to say all that to Ari Mas myself but the team coach was going and he got ushered to get on the team coach.

31:07So if he's listening, Harry, that's what I was about to say to you, but Karl said it. Karl, you've written an article looking at maybe some of the alternatives to the current targets that Manchester United have, your latest shopping for piece. What stood out to you then about what you think United need and which players perform well in that criteria? I think two things I was looking for. absolutely wanted a left footer on left back I think you know I've had too many seasons now of a right footed player coming inside and causing a shortening particularly when you're going forward I looked into whether or not any of these left backs were good at crossing the ball because I think Benjamin Sesko's aerial ability is good and could get rapidly better I'm really excited to see him in the United shirt again so I was looking are you good at crossing are you good at getting forward are you able to offer something in early build up play in the same way Luke Shaw very often does when it's a back three and he's doing things so certain players came out David Rahm at RB Leipzig came out because he played with Seska before and he's one of the top chance creators in the top five he's very very good crossing the ball from the left half space he captains Leipzig so this was one where I wrote a much larger section than the one that went printed because Leipzig went off and sold Diamande for 140 million and I went all right fine maybe Leipzig you're less likely to sell the captain now.

32:30And you can imagine the Lewis Hall first draft was closer to 800 words. And then Laurie said the things he said in a deal sheet. And I went, okay, let me make that a little bit shorter as well. But the player that stood out for me as a good all-rounder is Juan Miranda at Bologna. I can't tell you with any confidence right now whether or not he's on United's shortlist, be that the scouting shortlist or the data shortlist. But he was someone that came up very well on the data searches I did as a great all-rounder. and then when I watched him play for Borussia he passed my eye test at the very least.

33:00There are some players that I think Manchester United have had a passing interest in the past. Elhaj Malik Jouf at West Ham is someone that apparently was somewhere on a list. I couldn't tell you if it was a top five or if it was just number 15. Didn't you put him on the list, Carl? I thought he was like your guy that you wanted. I was quite high on him in January and then I had my West Ham supporting mate go you should watch him defend crosses and then I was less high on him. but he's a fullback that I think he has the potential to get a lot better in the next two or three seasons. Whether or not United decide to pull the trigger and bring him in now where he might be slightly cheaper and or amenable to moving to staying in the Premier League would be interesting.

33:44I think this is the tricky bit in that you want to sign a player who can very easily step in when Luke Shaw cannot play. And then hopefully you want to make that player someone, providing what your budget says, that player can just be your Luke Shaw replacement when Luke Shaw eventually goes, I'm hanging it up. I've done his 13th season for Manchester United, which is just remarkable looking back. There's been so many good Manchester United seasons post-Alex Ferguson have involved Luke Shaw being fit. And indeed, so many bad seasons have involved him not being available. And we've been having a long conversation about the left-back situation.

34:18So a real problem position. I would like United to go out and spend 60 million on Lewis Hall because that's what Laurie said last week, but things have changed. So we'll see. Well, let's see what Laurie says next week. You never know, as he said before. If things have been a little bit different though, Andy, Brandon Williams would have been a name that I'm sure would have been involved in this left-back chat for Manchester United. Tom Burrows has done a very revealing interview with him. He's now 25. He's training with Rotherham at the moment, looking to try and get a contract for the new season.

34:49The last few years have been like a rollercoaster for him and that is really dumbing down, being involved with dangerous driving charges, with links to drugs, all sorts of things. And just reading about his rise into Manchester United's first team and his take on that back in 2019 and everything that's happened since and some of the self-reflection that he's done, it's a very revealing read, that one. It's spot on by Tom Burrows and it's just really sad to read. and it's even sadder because when it was happening you could see what it was leading to these are the pitfalls of fame he's a working-class Manchester lad Danny Taylor did a piece with his mum a couple of years ago she runs a cafe in North Manchester and I made a big impression Brandon when he came through I just remember starting to see some of his social media output when he was pictured bling-blinged up on a private jet.

35:47And I just thought, oof, is that me being a bit parental here? And is this what young people do? Are they allowed to show this and show off? It just didn't sit right with me at all. And maybe that's a Manchester thing where you play things down, you don't play things up. and then just to watch his football career has just been thoroughly depressing. There's a really interesting line in that piece where it says it's especially difficult being from Manchester. And that's a pressure that when you come through and you play for your hometown team, and I reckon you could say the same in Liverpool or Sheffield or North London or South London, it's not a good thing.

36:35And he talks in it about during COVID going for a run and he basically can't go for a run because everyone's stopping him. There's something quite endearing about that. But at nighttime, the new friends in inverted commas that you acquire, the people who realize you've got money, it's pretty good for a 25-year-old lad to say, look, I was just far too young to be moving out and buying my own place. But why wasn't he being told that at the time? I remember speaking to someone at United years ago, and they're like, we can't control the players 24-7. You know, they've got to have some responsibility.

37:13And I know United do guide them. We've spoken to people on this podcast. When we had Brian Robson on it, part of it was about proper financial advice to young players. The fact that these missteps are still happening now, year after year, shows that I don't have a magical solution. Young people may be young people, but this is a lad who not played for Manchester United for a number of years now. He got to 50 games really quickly. Just sad, sad. And he's made mistakes. And I don't know whether their mistakes are reversible. I don't know what his level is now. I know the clubs that he's been at.

37:49I know coaches he's worked with. I'd love him to get back into professional football. Never spoken a word to the lad in my life. I don't know him. But it's just a cursory tale and a sad one. I did speak a word to him when he was on loan at Norwich. I think that loan basically was to get him out of Manchester. to a degree and try and get him a fresh perspective. I enjoyed his company, actually. He's a bit like Cole Palmer in that he won't suffer full... He doesn't kind of go along with what you're trying to get out of him. I agree with that. I haven't interviewed him. Right, but he's pretty straight and he'll give you an honest...

38:25And I think Tom's interview with him, Tom Burrow's interview with him is really good because he gets into places that are difficult to talk about and you can tell that Brandon Williams is I think understanding the significance of what he's gone through. And clearly, nitrous oxide, he touched on that and says how stupid it was, which is now a class C drug. And also, I think a really telling line in terms of trying to not get attracted by the bling and the money, because he got a big contract pretty early on in his career. And that was the one that I think then made him move out of his house. But he said during lockdown, he was on Zoom calls with his teammates and they were all, you know, got gyms and pools in the background and he's doing, you know, bicep curls with his mum's suitcase as a dumbbell and just that conflict between, well, I should be at that level and that sort of living arrangement and it must be a difficult thing to go through.

39:16But I think he takes, well, at least he's, you know, he's saying he takes accountability. He says, it's only on me, you know, this is all on me, what's happened. So, you know, I wish him absolutely the best, but I think it was a really interesting interview and hopefully other young players will read that because it's very easy to get allured by the money and the fame and the kind of different trappings. And so hopefully they can read what he's had to say and maybe just take a pause on it. Yeah, go and have a read of that, definitely, if you've not seen it already. And good luck to Brandon, hopefully, getting that contract at Rotherham.

39:44Let's see what the future can hold for him, hopefully better.

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42:32Right, just coming back to the transfers then. Anything else on the agenda, Laurie, that you've seen? Louis Page, who is a Leicester midfielder, 18-year-old. I think he's played like 20 games for the first team. United are interested in signing him. He'd be like Aidan Heaven, like Tien and Thompson, part of this emerging talent bracket that they're going for. So players that are kind of late teens that have shown good quality to United's belief in the academy system and then pushing on into the first team. So I believe that Arsenal and Aston Villa are also showing interest in him. He's a box-to-box midfielder.

43:08I must admit, I haven't seen loads of him, But, you know, I think that it kind of obviously fits into a position that United are looking to strengthen. Yeah, let's see if they can get it done. I think that he has a preference for United, but obviously it's not as simple as that. If a player does prefer one club or another, they've still got to agree. Terms, you know, it's going to be a transfer, a typical transfer. You know, it's not schoolboy form or anything like that. So, yeah, let's see how that develops. But I think that's an interesting one. a part of more of a theme of United looking at promising young talents and seeing if they can tap into them at the right point in their careers.

43:43Okay, I mean, they are beginning to be able to get some of these moves out sorted, Andy, as well. We've mentioned a few times about interest in Joshua Zerksi from Italy, so we'll see how that develops. But two players who have left, Radic Vitek has joined Middlesbrough for a fee that begins at£7 million but could rise to£14 million, which feels a bit more like it for him. the sell-ons, matching rights, buybacks, all that sort of stuff included with him. And a loan for Altai, Bayern Deer to Celta Vigo as well, with an option to buy in his deal. So they are getting stuff sorted, aren't they? Yeah, so for Bayern Deer, Celta are playing European football this year.

44:21It's a good place for them to go. They'll be playing in La Liga. Anyone who can name the last player to go on loan from Manchester United to Celta Vigo can meet me outside Croke Park on Wednesday and I'll give you a special prize. for Vitek. You already cry for net. Well done. Just ruined it. Just about to meet a load of Irish Reds. Well done. We need to do an insert saying, pause the pod here or fast forward it now if you don't want to make the answer. Vitek, I mean, I think I said on this pod quite a while back, I didn't see a future for him at Manchester United and I was surprised to be telling that.

44:56I just got that from a couple of sources. Excellent at Bristol City. It's funny how the fee is perceived. Because I saw that 15 million figure a few weeks ago, and someone who knows far, far more about goalkeepers than I do just said, look at the average price that goalkeepers go for in the championship, in the league above. Yeah, in absolute dreamland, if you're thinking you're getting 15 million pounds for him. And then it could be 40 million, which ain't that far from 15 million. So I think Middlesbrough could be a good club. They should be pushing for promotion. Manchester United wisely have got options where they profit.

45:40And I've said it many times, United need to get better at selling players. Now, you've got to have the players to sell them. And that's not always been easy for Manchester United. But these aren't the big, big deals that are going to bring the money in where you think, right, we've got this. And you've seen that over clubs, you know, the selling players for 40, 50, 60, 70 million. We're not getting that at Manchester United. That will hopefully come, but at least players are starting to move. And I think there'll be more activity towards the end of the window. There's pressure. There's pressure from players.

46:10There's pressure from clubs. There's pressure from agents. When seasons start and players are not liking what they're seeing, you tend to get a lot of movement towards the end of the transfer window. I think the really interesting one in the VTech situation is that actually if they do realise all those add-ons, I think it relates to promotion really and how much you perform. So, okay, everyone would love that to happen. Middlesbrough, him, United. I think then you've got the context of the Carl Rushworth signing, going from Brighton to Coventry and how that's up 22 and a half million potentially rising to 30.

46:42And United fans are going, well, how come we can't get that for this guy? And I think that's a valid question. But also it's a sort of different thing when Coventry are in the Premier League now. So they've got the Premier League money. They can throw a bit more at it if they really think that he's a player that they want. And also he was already in Coventry's team and they know, Frank Lampard knows was how integral he was to that team. So it's a slightly different perspective. And I think if they even, you know, the Vitek one, I was told 10 million, you know, when you said about 15 million there early, Andy, that had been reported, I was sort of told 10 million.

47:11So you're sort of in the middle there, right? You're seven to 14. And if they do get 14 for him, I think he actually then is counted as, or goes down as one of the biggest sales of an academy player that United have done for who hasn't played for the team. So, you know, I suppose it's still not ideal, right? United want to be getting the kind of crazy figures that City get for academy players or Chelsea sometimes or Liverpool even back in the day. But I kind of feel like it's not a bad deal really, all told, with the kind of upside that you could potentially get, even if he's then sold on for 35 % up to sell-on fee.

47:45And then the other one perhaps to mention in terms of outgoings is just Toby Collier, because obviously he was somebody that was playing under Ruben Amarin, was actually ahead of Casemiro at one point, but he's now with the 21s. When you touched on there earlier, Andy, players that aren't with the first team still, he's obviously one of those. And I think that then points to perhaps an acceleration of his exit. But yeah, it'd be interesting to see how much United can get for him. Okay, we'll keep an eye on that, certainly. Before we go any further, I mentioned at the very start of this show that we do have a live stream coming up on YouTube, our very first Talk of the Devils live stream.

48:17We'll have to get Andy clued up on all the technology between now and then, but believe you me, we'll be able to do it. It's going to be on August the 20th. It's a Thursday at 12 noon UK time. So you should be doing it already. I don't go bang on about it like other channels, but subscribe, hit the bell to make sure that you get your notifications on to find out exactly when that live stream takes place. But I can let you know it's Thursday, August the 20th at 12 noon UK time. So we're excited about that. We'll have a few more details near at a time about exactly what it's going to entail. But it's essentially a Q &A.

48:52so let us know your questions a bit nearer the time and we'll get into all of that. Something we're going to try and do more regularly this season, the live stream, so we'll see how that first one goes and go from there. And thank you for your support, as always, ahead of that. Right, last few bits and bobs then. Manchester United's women's side have a new manager. We talked a little bit with Megan Faringer on the last show. She brought us a report on the exit of Mark Skinner. Eva Ullid is the new name who is in charge of the team, Carl. what's been the reaction to this appointment? The main thing was the fact that Eva Oled won the Scottish Premiership with Hearts using wingbacks and it was, oh, another wingback manager coming to Manchester United.

49:33Eva Oled is not as adherent to a 3-4-3, 3-4-2-1 as Ruben Amrim. There have been multiple times where she has used the back four and she has a proven track record with using young players, players under the age of 21. That feels crucial in it all, doesn't it? that particular aspect. It does. This really feels like this is going to be a season where United aren't necessarily going to be spending money or large amounts of money between now and the end of the window to get recruitment. I think United have probably won short in centre-back, centre-midfield and left wing. I think they could probably do with the wing option to replace Melvin Mallard who's gone to Chelsea.

50:08And it feels like, to me at least, that it's going to be more likely these players will be sourced from the academy rather than sourced from across Europe. so Oli's track record bringing through young players working with young players is appealing this is going to be a team that wants to attack the Hearts team had a huge swing in quality they were towards the relegation zone in their first season they swung everything and ended up winning the league very very good very good direct attacks no more passing for the sake of passing but they very much wanted to be the protagonist in loads of games although I will say again if you ask me right now where United are likely to finish I'm looking at London City Lionesses and thinking United probably going to be in a fight to finish fourth with on the City Lionesses rather than pushing into that top three.

50:55So it'll be tricky. It's a big job ahead of Miss Oliad but we wish it all the best. Yes we do. Right last couple of things another appointment Andy that's caught our eye. Diego Folan becoming the new Uruguay manager. I guess you've been in touch. Yeah I have. I copied in the Uruguayan FA today the other day and said when they said they were going announce him officially I said could you please put 200 seats aside for a load of ultras who are coming from Manchester because we love Diego so I hope there's this like poor office person trying to work out whether this is true or not he's extremely proud to be managing his his country it's a country that's traditionally punched way above its weight only three million people and he's been in some of their greatest sides they they have like three or four world-class players still but football teams tend to be made up of 11 players not three or four so he's going to have to come through the tough South American groups you'll have Copa Libertadores and he'll be judged pretty harshly and I don't feel that Diego's managerial career got off the ground he sort of he had a time with Peñarola a very big club there and and also a club which he part owns in Uruguay so I think Manchester United fans would absolutely wish him well and I reckon he has to invite a load of us over and take us out around Punta del Este for a buzz.

52:19Sounds like it would be a buzz and speaking of buzzes Laurie you're off to Dublin next aren't you? You're going to be joining Manchester United's pre-season excitement over there. How exactly are you getting there? Ah yes yes yes well Andy will be so proud of me because I'm currently in Anglesey, as you can tell by the tan. It's been absolutely glorious sunshine here. North Wales, for anyone who may not own a map. Thank you, yes. And also a flushed redness rather than a tan to anyone listening to the podcast. But yeah, so I could have driven back to Manchester and flown across, but instead, no, I'm going to get a taxi to Hollyhead and get the ferry across to Dublin.

53:00Three and a half hours of peace without having to talk to you guys, listen to anything else get my lopsided out do a bit of work that I need to do and then straight into it into Dublin Croke Park I'm so thrilled that it's at Croke Park I've done the Aviva quite a few times now Leeds United 80 ,000 is it you know it's going to be I think it's going to be a great atmosphere I think it's going to be electric in the city Dublin's always been very kind to us there's loads of reds there I'm really really looking forward to it and I can't wait to see Andy's smiling face because no doubt he'll be smiling as soon as he sees me I reckon his version isn't so far from what's actually going to happen right he's going to get on the boat and he's going to be like is the wi-fi is the wi-fi i can't have three and a half hours without my phone is the wi-fi and then he'll be going up to the shipped person going what's the best wi-fi package you can have is it into dunlairy or dublin can't remember these days used to be in dunlairy years oh i hope i've not got the wrong phone then i think i do i would laugh my head off if you went to.

54:00Oh no. I think they do tend to go in Dublin now. But I echo what you say. It's pretty significant playing the game at Croke Park. And I think there'll be more travelling Leeds fans because they've not got European football. And this is an awkward truth that I've seen in recent pre-seasons. Leeds take loads away because they're not saving up for anything because they don't finish in a position to be playing European football. So it could be pretty feisty in Dublin, but bring it on. Huge, huge crowd and it's sold out, which hasn't been a given so far on this tour. Although Gothenburg did sell out.

54:41We need revenge for that awful defeat at Old Trafford not so long ago. Oh God, yeah, that was terrible, wasn't it? Yeah, you might be able to speak to Cardalo about that at some point. I've already done that. It's a shame there's no Martinez-Calvert-Lewin rematch, isn't there? Yeah, he's the last one to join, isn't he, Martinez? as he should be joining maybe by the time that people are listening or watching this. Lisandro Martinez should be part of it and Carrick's squad is then complete ahead of the new season. And that completes our podcast tonight. We're recording this on Sunday night, which probably explains some of the false starts that we've had with sentences and whatever else.

55:13But we wanted to get this out in good time. And also it was the only time we could get everyone together between ferries across seas and journeys from Sweden and whatever else. But I hope you've enjoyed it. don't forget that live stream we're going to be boring you with the details of that across the next week or so but August the 20th get the notifications sorted get yourself subscribed whatever else you need to do on YouTube these days to enjoy that but that should be a real big moment for us and for you as well we look forward to it but for the moment Andy, Carl, Laurie thank you so much and thank you for your company listening and watching along we'll see you on the next one take care, bye bye

56:14The Athletic FC. www.workday.com

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