Why did Man United struggle against Spurs?

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2:02The Athletic FC

2:19This is Talk of the Devils, the athletic show dedicated to Manchester United. I am Laurie Whitwell and we are in the studio down the road from Old Trafford. United have drawn 1-1 with Tottenham Hotspur. It was a disappointing result, ultimately. United led in the game, Brian Mbumo. And then 10 men, Spurs came back late on. It leaves big questions around United. It leaves boos at the final whistle from fans. And it leads concern, shall we say, heading into United facing Atletico Madrid on Tuesday in the Champions League. You might have noticed that Ian isn't here. Hopefully that's not causing too much concern yourself.

2:58He's on his jolly in Lisbon over this weekend, so he hasn't taken his mic with him, which does cause me a little bit of alarm because whenever he does that, something big at United happens. Let's hope we can get through this weekend without him needing to break the emergency glass. And let's hope that I get better reviews than the new hosts of Strictly Come Dancing. Yes, I'm here with Andy and Keris. How are we feeling? Because it felt at one stage like it was going to be a really morale boost in victory, even though United probably didn't deserve it. And then ultimately, 10 men again, Tottenham coming back at the death in injury time with that Solanke goal, outmuscling Martinez.

3:36How are we feeling? Disappointed. Same old. Manchester United won one league game from six. This is relegation form. And as you said, it could have been a morale boost in victory. Tottenham were probably worth the draw. I saw some stats after the game, Laurie, and it looks equal. Possession, shots on goal. Tottenham had a far better XG. That doesn't tell you anything about the story of the game. Tottenham were so much better in the first 25, 30 minutes. And Manchester United were much better in the second half. And I'm a bit alarmed. I was alarmed at the first 25 minutes at how bad United were.

4:17And I'm alarmed that Manchester United struggle to play when teams go down to 10. I'm alarmed that we keep conceding late goals. And I'm alarmed that one win from six has led to the way we all feel now. A feeling of real frustration and deflation. It's only six games. but how long are we going to carry on talking this? We're going to be here in, it's only 16 games now and we've won one game. I just feel I'm same old, same old. And I watched that Brighton game at Old Trafford. I'm like, today I was watching it through my fingers. It felt similar to you. It just did. The lack of control. They couldn't get the ball off Tottenham.

5:01Their mid-block was far better. United were too slow. They were too deep. They did change at half-time and we can pick out a couple of positives. some of the substitutions I'm sure will come to that. Tottenham could have been 4-0 up. They really could. They had really good chances. And their individual errors from Manchester United players, several of them from the goalkeeper to defenders, just too slow. And because of the deep, they couldn't connect with the attackers, so they offered almost nothing up front. I think I might have had a shot on goal after 33 minutes. But I'm worried. I'm worried.

5:37I've not given up on this team. I'm not giving up on this manager. But I'm worried because one winning six is nowhere near good enough. How do you feel, Kerris? We sat next to each other. We went through a whole range of emotion watching that, didn't we, I think. But what is your overriding feeling right now? I think frustration because of what Andy was just mentioning about the Brighton game, that it feels similar. I thought it was going to feel different in the sense that against Brighton what was so concerning was how they crumbled so quickly under kind of the first hints of adversity seeing the first hints of pressure whereas today the worst period in the game for Manchester United was not the one in which Tottenham scored as Andy's just said they were terrible for the first 25-30 minutes managed to ride that out came out and played much much better in the second half and I'm thinking this is a massive sign of progress because you've come through a period of actual pressure without conceding and have managed to keep your heads keep your composure and then that's why it's so frustrating to lose it to what is ultimately such a simple goal across that's not stopped well enough Martinez being in a duel that is just a complete physical mismatch I think that could have been handled far better and it's a moment that undoes them but ultimately you can't complain about the result from the perspective that you know I think Spurs would have felt very hard done by had they come away with nothing and having not scored Andy said they could have been so many more up in the first half and ultimately United cannot win a game if they only start playing from half-time.

7:13We'll get into the later stage events, the red card. Certainly that was a free-brow moment, wasn't it? Kind of crazy act from Benton Court. Also the Tottenham goal. Also Colis Belieber's debut, that was his first action in the United shirt. I think it came pretty well, pretty well-timed. But just can we remind it back to the start and the build-up into the game because you did the story on the ticker, Andy, returning. it was there you had all this kind of feeling around the game that you know City were going to be the the focus of a lot of United chanting and would that feed into United then actually having a great atmosphere and being able to really put it to Spurs it was the total opposite wasn't it it was it was Spurs from the get-go it was they flew out and and that worries me as well why is that happening we're talking about Spurs Spurs are bottom of the league Spurs have not scored a goal away from home and they flew into Manchester United.

8:03United couldn't get the ball. Their central midfielders were dominating everything. Well let me give you a quick start. After 23-24 minutes Bruno Fernandes hadn't made one pass yet. It was 23 minutes. That's the latest he'd ever made a pass in the Premier League and also Spurs by that point had had 170 completed passes. United had had 70 completed passes. It was domination. You could see it. So what you're Picking out from that, a defender, Lenny Oro being the best player. Ahmad making his first start of the season, being pushed back right in front of Lenny Oro. You're scrapping at clearances and interceptions because Tottenham was so dominant.

8:42And I'm just worried watching it. And this is a team who are struggling in terms of the atmosphere. So the ticker story, yeah, did it. Obviously as a neutral, objective journalist. Do you know, I didn't get that reference in the story, the£114 cost of the banner at first. Well, the banner cost£114. It could have cost£115. Well, it cost£114 and I wrote that. It got an important discount. And I've seen the receipt, you know, because I'm diligent at what I do. And people are like, you're just making this up. But I'm like, look, it's cost£114. It actually has. Oh, yeah, seriously cost£114. I had to just turn my phone off.

9:24The abuse. from Manchester City fans who are not admirers of my work or investigative journalism. Well, what about this United We Stand? We've got it on the, for the listeners, we've got United We Stand and his cover. That was flying today. United fans love it. You've got to know your audience, haven't you? I was researching a piece about Atletico Madrid. We'll talk about them later on. Dug back to a piece I did in 91 and we printed, my flight was 114 quid. If I write that, people are just going to think I'm making this up as I'm going along. It's true. it's been published um there was this the banner the banner was there there were songs about city cheating but the atmosphere tends to follow the rhythm of a football game and when tottenham was so dominant then it fades away and then when united picked up the atmosphere picked up there was a little moment after 29 minutes where harry mcguire did a pirouette and and it actually changed it because United got better from that point and that's a desperation from the crowd just give us something well you've seen you know all traffic crowds more than us um in the i think about half an hour in there was a long ball that went out of play and i think this is part of you know quite a lot of long balls that United were playing and there was boos i think they greeted that act rather than anything the referee had done i was a little bit confused but i mean keris you were there we were sort of discussing it weren't we and then you had matthias kunya trying to rev up the crowd but it was also it was almost like he was annoyed that they weren't more there was a bit of friction there and he got a bit of stuff back from the crowd and then booze at half time what do you make of all this kind of happening I think the atmosphere at Old Trafford at the minute is it's not as poor as I've seen I've seen times where there is a lot less hope in the crowd but I think at the minute what stands out to me is just how quickly the how quickly you can turn toxic and aggressive towards the team.

11:17I think the fans are remarkably quick to get on the players back for mistakes. And, you know, fans pay for their tickets and they've got a right to express how they feel. But I remember talking to people at the end of the Brighton game after there was chants of, you know, what the F was that as the players were going down the tunnel and saying, you know, that shouldn't be happening at Old Trafford. It's a really thorny issue because no one has a right to tell fans they can't express their opinions but at the same time it's quite hard to think that the speed at which it turns negative at the moment can be having any positive impact on the team you know it's easy for players to to drop their heads in that in those situations I was concerned that that would happen to Lenny Oro tonight and to his credit it it didn't him playing out of his favoured position but I thought he kept his head pretty well but I think yeah the thing that stands out to me is just how quickly how susceptible fans feel to turn on on the team at the moment I think that's a combination of how poor the football's been but also everything off the pitch you can't separate the two the deep frustration it's results it's stuff that's happening off the pitch as well the ticketing issue which yeah it's coming again a little bit the membership's been scrutinized as well I think it's just your lack of wins and the league position and the game that they're watching with their own eyes it all affects the atmosphere directly and then cunyre appeals i wouldn't mind if someone appealing to his teammates because they needed a rocket up the backside so when i'm in the first half that's how i felt but i was frustrated when you hear booze i don't like it i can understand why people do it it just comes from a place of deep frustration and you are entitled to let the people know how you feel why is cunyre doing it well what's his background he's played in brazil where the atmosphere tends to be better i'm honest It's not great in the Premier League.

13:11The stadiums are full. That's great. The loyalty is great. The atmosphere is nothing special. He's played for Atletico Madrid. You'll see on Tuesday night what a really good atmosphere is like. And he's played for Wolves. I've been a part of some interesting atmospheres at Molyneux. I'm going to give them credit for that. It's funny. It's funny like Kerry says. We got an email about this from Stephen. So thank you for emailing in. We got a lot of feedback. Thank you so much, everyone that gets in contact. If you want to leave comments as well, please do. Stephen said, can you come out strong against this booing shite?

13:46Started 30 minutes into the game at 0-0. Should never hear it here! Michael Carrick actually was, I guess, perhaps more understanding. Perhaps he has to be. He has to be sort of healing this issue rather than kind of antagonising it. And he said, when things aren't quite going to plan, I understand the reaction at times. Hurts a lot. Sometimes you have to go through it. I care as much as anybody about this place. So you could say too much because then it overspills. I think he's sort of saying the fans, if you care so much, you're kind of on edge and your emotions are coming out. It's coming from a good place.

14:18So I think certainly he can lean into his own pedigree, his own history as a player. Even when they were winning things, there were some atmospheres certainly that were on edge, weren't they? So yeah, I think it's a good thing that he's able to speak on those kind of terms. I thought he spoke well there. I think it's a good point that he made there. And he was a season ticket holder this time last year. Yeah, yeah. He knows, he's got his own opinions as well. Joking him, he's booing. I just think this point about it coming from a good place of caring is right. Yeah. Because this wasn't an apathetic reaction.

14:48The stadium is full all the time. I stood outside that ground for three hours before. I felt the mood. It was wonderful. People are glad that football was back after the international break. No one's talking about got to watch a great United team, but they're really looking forward to the game ahead. and then when it happens and it's just so deflating within minutes Tottenham are so good when Lammans give the ball away or that poor pass that was only four or five minutes in it's like we're not learning every week we're seeing the same script and I'm not going to use the word alarming one more time I'm not going to use that word concerning it's deeply concerning because United if the grander plan is going to work need to be getting in the Champions League next year to be able to go for the type of players that they want to be buying.

15:39Tottenham fans were giving it the big one about Bilbao, do one. It's just not a good place at the moment. I don't think it's toxic. I think the fans are supportive. I think it's getting that way. I do think it's like I said, it's the speed at which the crowd is prepared to turn at the minute. And as we've touched on, as Karik sort of acknowledged, it's completely their right to do that. But I think what is so difficult at the minute is you knew going into the game today, we all knew that after a relatively sort of the noise around United quieted down over the international break in large part because of everything that came out about Manchester City, that took the focus away.

16:18But I think we all knew that a poor result today would ratchet the noise straight back up again. And that's what I mean about it being toxic. There's no escape from that kind of cycle of negativity as long as the results are like this. it felt to me certainly when United were building a bit of momentum in the second half before they scored that the crowd were with them and that edginess then turned into a positive and particularly shooting towards the Stretford end as well I think did help and obviously in Boomer's goal we'll get on to that in a little bit but I thought that was pure quality and that really did I felt like it created a moment at one stage but just on the starting line-up as well though if I can so obviously he's had a lot of time to think about who he's going to pick and I'll come to you on this one if that's alright But only two changes, I think, from the Fulham game.

17:03So Rashford dropped and then also Ahmad in. So you've got a shuffling around of the forward line, which I think everybody was sort of hoping for at one point. And then also, as you've touched on earlier, Yoro in for Dallow at right back. So he'd played there in pre-season, but it's perhaps an unusual moment to do this choice. How did you think it went and what did you think of the selections? I was surprised by the decision to put Yoro in at right back because it's not his best position. I watched his France senior debut over the break, thought he did really, really well, wrote a piece on it. And I said in that piece, this does not mean he should start again, start the Motspur.

17:41And then he did. And I hold my hands up. I think he played really well. I thought that the timing of his challenges, he made a couple of slide tackles in the box that he absolutely had to get right and did his sort of jockeying of Savio to hold him off from getting into his stride down the wing I thought was good. I think 1v1 he did well. He kept his composure. There was a couple of times, I think, once where he'd sort of jockeyed Savio all the way into the middle and Fernandes kind of directed him to get back over and cover the space he needed to cover. There was once where he sort of realised about five seconds too late that he needed to make an overlapping run for Bruno and he hadn't and it was just a moment.

18:22Bruno sort of pointed the way didn't he? Yeah exactly like there's elements of the game at fullback that he's obviously developing but defensively I thought he did really well and I was surprised by that call. The attacking kind of reshuffle again I thought was it was the changes that I would have made. I think it feels sort of harsh to feel like Marcus Rashford kind of in inverted commas deserve to be dropped because I think he has been a threat for Manchester United and I know that I'll get stick for staying that because he's not had a goal or an assist but I do stand by it but still I felt that the way to get the best out of the attack as a whole had to be moving Kunya onto the left and Bermot up top and Ahmad on the right so I thought it was the right selection it didn't feel like it quite worked and a little bit of that will be Ahmad getting back up to speed I also thought you know Kunia's game is different to Rashford's he doesn't stay as high and wide he doesn't stretch the play as much so the team then then needs to adapt to that so you've not got so many players trying to occupy kind of the same central pocket in front of the opposition centre backs it I thought they were good changes I think something needed to change I think had it been an unchanged lineup from the Fulham game then that would have been been pretty unthinkable and you It doesn't feel like it tonight, but there are positives to take from that, like Jorreau, like the fact that Ahmad is back and will improve, hopefully, as he plays more games and comes back into form.

19:54I thought I was concerned that Spurs would really target that right-hand side because of it being a brand-new right flank with Jorreau and Ahmad, and I actually thought they did pretty well. That wasn't the point of vulnerability. The point of vulnerability was through the middle. but yeah I think they were they were good changes they showed that Carrick is willing to shake things up a little bit and I imagine that's kind of what we'll continue to see in attack. I think Michael Carrick's now got to be looking at the the fixtures and and the schedule coming up so Marcus Rashford played four or five times against Atletico Madrid last year he did he did well he missed a couple of chances in one of the games so I'm thinking he's he's not just thinking about today.

20:37I think he had to make a change. I think Kerris is right. Can feel vindicated by Lenny Oro's performance. He's now in his third season at Old Trafford. He's rated as this huge talent. He showed that in playing for France. What's his position going to be for Manchester United? At times when he's played as a central defender, there's been a mistake in him. So maybe it's less risk putting him out there. But he did well. One of the best players. Balaba. We'll talk about the other players who did well. and if you're one of them players and you're thinking well Man United have won one in five league games and I'm not getting my chance you're going to be thinking well what do I have to do to get my chance Marcus Rashford came on very late 95 minutes um he needs a goal he needs an assist I can understand the changes I'm partly brought on by injury you know Benjamin Sesko would have been that worries me

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23:03We should get into this because we've had a press conference since our last show, haven't we, with Michael Carrick, where he said the Dogu would be out for a few weeks, basically. And then also, Sesco, he was vague, wasn't he? But a bit longer sort of seemed to be the suggestion. So, yeah, I don't know. Do you know exactly what the injury is? I know it's shin. He said it wasn't quite the same as the previous injury, didn't he? But it is the same areas. It's shin injury. It's ages. Have you ever had shin splints? I haven't, Andy. I've had them, mate. Have you? They take ages. What are they? what advice would you give to Benjamin Cheshko be patient stop playing football have a year out oh well he can't go to the clinic and about 15 times and just pull things against you honestly so what are then how does it feel I'm not saying that this is what he's got should say we don't know that this is what he's got so I'm not a qualified doctor here right yeah disclaimers please just takes a bit of time I'm just worried that he came back played well and you're thinking he's going to be featuring it just reminds of the fact that United didn't go for a striker in the market.

24:03And to be fair to Xerxes, he came on today and made a difference, I thought. I thought he was one of the better players. Lovely touches. But weirdly, that moment when he actually did Van Hecker down the side. But weirdly, I think Bruno went up top, really, and Xerxes was like sort of number 10. So you're even then thinking, you know, you've not actually got a striker to go and play Cesco with. So, yeah. Well, the moments, Kunjur had his little moments, even off the ball, even defensively. you can pick out positives from all of them, but I don't think they look like a confident team. I don't think they look like a fit team.

24:37Okay, so we'll come on to the second half in a second, because obviously the alarming bit was that first 25 minutes where it felt like Tottenham were just high-pressing them. United couldn't get out. Lomans gave that ball to Kobe Mena, which was the wrong choice, and that's a huge chance to start with. Although, to be fair to him, he pulled off a couple of really good saves, I thought, Lomans. But Spurs missed so many chances, then even into the second half. But what do you put that down to, really? United, I don't know, not being on the same wavelength or not quite understanding their roles, but you think fitness maybe as well, if you've got a high-pressing team like that?

25:10United didn't look like they had the legs of Tottenham in the first half today. And there's a couple of reasons why you're thinking that. Because the team are playing so deep, it's harder to connect with your forward players because of the distances. It's harder for someone like Uri Telemans to make the connections, harder for the forward players to get in. I think tactically, Tottenham made much better use of the wings than Manchester United did. But it all changed at half-time, to be fair. Michael Carrick has obviously had a word with them. United was straight on the front foot when the substitutes were coming on.

25:38I think the first thing Deleau did was make a cross. Luke Shaw was better. So I thought that Tottenham had a lot more energy about them. United couldn't get the ball off Tottenham. That's really worrying. And when they did, they gave it away really, really carelessly. That was kind of what was most concerning to me. was we've spoken a lot about how United can struggle to break down teams when United are dominating possession, they can struggle to break teams down that are sitting back. And today was the opposite. It was a team that wanted to have the ball, had no interest in kind of sitting off them, were trying to win it back off them constantly.

26:15And United couldn't cope with that either. So it begs the question of what game state actually does suit them at the moment. I thought they were really careless in possession and a thought out of possession, like you've touched on, the athleticism and the fitness wasn't there. Is that a bit of a hangover for those who've travelled and who've been away on internationals potentially? Players who've been away, Tottenham are players who've been injured. I think United looked last year a lot towards Bruno Fernandes. He's not playing like he was doing. He didn't have a great first half, did he Bruno?

26:46No, he didn't. He got more involved in the second half. Were you surprised that they didn't make changes at halftime? It was 60 minutes and there were three of them all at once. And clearly that reception for Carlos Beléber, I don't know if I've heard a reception like that for a player who hasn't played for United before, who's not like a star as such. But I think it showed the desperation for change in that particular game and also just generally signing a midfielder that actually feels like he fits into what United need. And his first act was obviously brilliant, a pirouette and then a pass out wide and he made that impact clearly.

27:25but were you surprised what do you think of him and were you surprised that they didn't make more changes or any changes at halftime I probably would have brought Belieber on at halftime for Uri Tielemans I thought Tielemans you're not a Tielemans fan are you at the moment it's not I wasn't a fan of his performance today I thought he really struggled I thought he added very little out of possession he was getting ran past far too easily I think he can be a great kind of technician when United have settled possession in helping kind of pick out passes and dictate play. I don't think we've seen him do that enough at Old Trafford or in the league generally for United yet.

28:00And also just when they don't have a lot of the ball, he can't do that. And out of possession today, I thought he was really poor. I didn't think he added very much at all. So I would have brought Belieber on for him at half time. But I think if we're talking, I know people maybe don't really want to hear positives right now. Come on, I'm here for it, Kerris. If we do try and pick out a positive, I wrote something this week about how Michael Carrick has not been that proactive with his substitutions and his substitutions haven't made a lot of impact this season. He made them earlier today than he usually makes his first sub.

28:32His first sub is, I think I got the data from Opta, it was about 65 minutes since he took over in January, made them on 60 today. Maybe I'm splitting hairs a little bit there. But, you know, I think Belieber made an impact. I thought Xerxes, I think, has struggled as an impact sub this season, but did well in that role today when he came on, or certainly better than he has done. And I think Dalo Fioro was probably a change that I would have made just to add a little bit more kind of experience and an out-and-out right-back who's not tired to that area of the pitch to deal with the pace down the wings.

29:04So I thought they were the right changes. I thought they made a lot of difference. I was impressed with Belieber. You know, when he came on, he sort of did, the announcer kind of invited everyone to welcome him and he did this big like tuck jump up into the air and we both went, whoa, that was high. And that was sort of like the energy that he brought really. If a midfielder can do a big tuck jump, you're sold. That's a bit harsh, but you know, the athleticism that he brought and the energy that he brought, I think were really valuable. And I think it comes back to what you just said there about the reception for him showed how much that the crowd felt those attributes were needed.

29:45It wasn't a perfect performance. He gave away, I think, one or two fouls and his, you know, his understanding with his teammates still needs a lot of work. But, you know, the recovery sprints that he was able to make, Tielemans wasn't making those. A couple of the long passes that he picked out I thought were good. I think he brings a bit of physicality. He brings a bit of robustness. and I thought that was a positive from today. I'm excited to see more of him. I think we're not quite sure. He's obviously been recovering from this ankle injury and Michael Carrick yesterday when I asked him about Belieber in the press conference seemed quite cautious.

30:20He's missed a lot of pre-season. He's missed a lot of important time. So we need to be patient with him. I don't think that the way he performed today is going to bring on patience. I think people are going to want to see him playing from the start. he looks um taller than i thought we need a we need a carl anchor special on how tall is he actually because it's he's down as 5 '10 when you google it i'm 5 '10 he's taller than me i'm sure he's 6 '10 him and luke shore have got the wrong heights i think they've swapped him around but yeah what did you make of his debut andy i thought it was good was it his pass to umbumo it was a brilliant pass wasn't it yeah i think that's probably why in the end the end they're giving it away a couple of times he kept trying to do these worldy passes and it was like okay Mbumo was six or seven meters behind.

31:01I mean, he showed his pace there. I think there's a reason with the substitutions. Okay, you make a big tactical change at halftime. You've got to let the players have a chance. And I think they did, which was get the ball out more to the wings, get the ball moving quicker. A criticism of Tielemans is I don't think he moves the ball quickly enough. So you saw straight away the ball getting out to Luke Shaw. You saw where the goal came from as well. It came right away down the left. I think it was Martinez to Shaw to Cunha and it came in. Amad was never going to play 90 minutes. so that was always coming so the the the think there's a logic to it but them lads were warming up on 55 it was relatively early they were coming on it was a triple substitution though so you know that that's pretty and then there were substitutions later on you know if that goal wouldn't have gone in we would be 20 percent more positive here i like it when you bring percentages in andy you know when you said 80 that marcus fastford stays 20 i was right though 75 percent of moods that's another one yeah with what results 75 % yeah I stand by that no you're right you just love 35 % of Andy Mitten's statistics I remember saying at the end of July in Trondheim 80 % Marcus stays I remember you saying it and it was right a few more times after that yeah we're 82 a week later I wanted to crank up really so but but it's if they would have Hold on, we'd be saying, we needed that win and they do and the manner of the goal.

32:27Well, we'll get onto that. Let's get onto the Mbumo goal because that was a thing of beauty. You've obviously touched on it there. We were right behind it in the press box, weren't we? It didn't really look like a chance when he actually had it. It's close, but what a finish. It was a lovely finish. Martinez to Shaw to Kunja. Just said this one minute ago. But Kunja on the left as well, by the way. Kerry, she's right in terms of him drifting, I think, in the first half. and he was actually on the left a bit more. Did well though, didn't he? Yeah, yeah. He did really well. And then it was a fantastic finish.

32:57And then just the relief in the whole stadium, just what people have been waiting for. And part of me is thinking Tottenham are going to be so flawed because they should be 5-1 up here. De Zerbi's face was a picture, wasn't it, in the dugout? Well, what was especially kind of satisfying about that goal, I think, was that it was built up quite patiently and Tottenham had had time to get back into their shape and settle and be a bit more compact, which is usually you know when teams do that united really struggled to crack them open and and they managed it was kind of i thought a satisfying element of it well so that was on 73 minutes uh and then time to score now well yes until the opposition go down to 10 men again even better you're one second time in as many games at old trafford uh so what minute was this i'm just trying to find a 78 minutes so five minutes later you get it's a kind of i mean i came quite out of nowhere didn't it like the atmosphere had there was a little bit of back and forth there was a couple of kind of heavy challenges and yellow cards and challenges people thought should have been yellow cards very early on but that whole episode sprung very quickly out of nothing and all of a sudden i look up and deserve he's on the other side of the other technical area and kunya's arguing with toson on the sideline and luke shaw's been headbutted and And it's just all kicked off.

34:19It was a mad episode. Yeah, right. It's a red card, right? I mean, so it sort of develops, doesn't it, where Bruno's going down the wing. I mean, it's a sort of spin that he does that he absolutely doesn't. He befuddles Van Hecker. I mean, he gets a booking for that tackle. He's sliding in. Benton Kohl then slides in massively on Luke Shaw. Gets the ball, but it is a scissor tackle. Luke Shaw reacts, turns around, gets in his face a bit, and Benton Kohl reacts by shoving his head into Luke Shaw. it's a headbutt he gets sent off Luke Shaw gets booked you've got to wonder with what Luke Shaw's been through as a player the tackle that he sustained against PSV that broke his leg you've got to think that's something in his mind that's the key point I'm glad you've said that because if there's any player on that pitch who's going to react to it was reckless yeah even though he got the ball then if you're Luke Shaw you're going to be exactly the same because you've been through so many dark moments because of poor tackles like that and then there was the melee wasn't there crazy yeah i'm not going on am i too much to say arsenal united it was the same position on the pitch yeah there was no winterburn or um or brian mclair you saw the the carrot was getting involved as erby was there trying to peacemaker i should say but yeah you see the nationalities pairing off where martinez is calming down bettencourt as well you thought he was calming down i thought there was a bit of argentina uruguayan sort of beef there maybe i think he's uh i don't know i'm guessing over here the spanish did we think sure was slightly fortunate to get away without two yellow cards because i completely recognize the point in terms of why he might have reacted the way he did and i totally understand it but he does go in with a shove off the ball quite aggressively and then the head p i'm sure people will argue for days over, you know, what level of force are we defining a headbutt as?

36:12Definitely a headbutt, but a butt is... Yeah, they've released the commentary from the VAR, haven't they? And they've said with force. So the referee instantly says, I think he's headbutted, I'm going to send him off. And the VAR says, yeah, it's with force. You know, so they've kind of confirmed it. But yeah, I agree. So you 1-0 up against 10 men. Yes, here we go. You don't lose the game. This is the key point. Carrick, to be fair to him, the press comments after, I'm not saying to be fair to him, but he actually was critical of his players for perhaps one of the first times. He said, we should have managed that out.

36:42We shouldn't let that situation slip. What do you think happens there, Andy? If you're up against 10 men and was it Tonali who put the ball in? Yeah. He had so much space, which is a worry when you're playing against 10 men. You're just watching it, expecting something to happen. You turn up against Brighton and you're watching it, expecting it to happen. and that shows a lack of confidence that maybe I have in the team at the moment. And the goal, well, the crosser had a lot of space. The ball comes in. Martinez looked like he was watching the player rather than the ball. So I don't think it was good defending.

37:20I don't think Martinez had a good game. You talked earlier, Keris, about overhitting missed passes. Martinez made two of them. And that's the strongest part of his game. So if you're taking out Bruno, who's your best player, not having a good game, and Martinez being the only defender who can pass through the lines and then passes are not coming off because of a disconnection in the tactics. Then Manchester United become considerably weak. It was a horrible goal to concede. Could Lamont have done more? It looked like he thought he was going wide, didn't he? But I mean, it would have been an amazing save to get it because it was right in the corner, but it doesn't look great, does it?

37:52When instead of diving to try and save it, he just puts his hand up for offside. And yeah, I mean, I'll come to you with this one, Keres, but he'd already had that moment, hadn't he? Solanke against Martinez, sort of out-muscling him for the chance. I think it was Savio's cross along the ground and he kind of got away with it, Martinez, because Solanke puts it over. Is that a concern for you? Clearly, Solanke's made that choice to drift onto Martinez and he's beaten him twice, really. Yeah, and I don't understand how that's not addressed. I know that it's very easy for us to sit here and say, and I recognise that, but ultimately you've got to realise at a point that there is a physical mismatch between your shortest central defender and the most physically imposing forward striker on the opposition team.

38:39And that striker is targeting your smallest defender as they should and as they would and as I'm sure they were told to do because it's a tactic that makes complete sense. And it's so predictable that I don't understand how it's not addressed. I looked at it back. Maguire was occupied by another player. I didn't quite see who it was. And that's what I mean. There are other things and it's easy for us to look back and say it but I just think that there needs to be more consideration given to it especially when as we've said you know United are playing with 11 against 10 how can Martinez be the only player who is available to Mark Solanke in that situation yeah I think it's poor individually defensively from him as we said I think he's focusing too much on the player and not enough on the ball but I also think that the team should have addressed a way to make sure that he didn't end up in that situation because it is a natural physical mismatch yeah yeah i mean could could you go back five in that situation is that a bit negative he brought heaven on didn't he but he brought him on for luke show at that point in injury time um i suppose that's something to consider when people say you know put lenny orro in instead of harry maguire for example and you know let's let let it go like that because i think maguire just obviously offers so much in that kind of physical set piece presence or even open play presence aerial jaws this this was the topic that we got quite a lot of emails about from you guys um yeah ashley emailed in saying how can a team with a man less dominate the game and it was strange wasn't it that tottenham actually it wasn't like they were kind of just really hopeful it was one attack that they had it was actually sort of again again and it's that so i've got three sort of thoughts on this you sort of touched on mentality there i think maybe confidence but does that is it anxiety or is it kind of a softening of of the edge that you need because you think we've got the advantage here is it conditioning or is it the style of play anyway?

40:29Because, you know, United have been better when they haven't had the ball. So it's kind of not necessarily that beneficial. And obviously we're saying this off the back of the Man City game where, you know, they played against 10 men for a long time and also the Everton game last season, which was under Ruben Amarin, where Everton went down to 10 men very early on, ended up losing the game to Everton. I don't think they look confident. So I think that is a factor. I think Tottenham played very well today. And you look in, Udeda just mentioned, Tonali. They've got top players all over. So you have this assumption, it's only Tottenham, it's Man United.

41:00100 million pound finale. But it's not anymore, you know, because they've got good players. Mamushi was at City, was a very good player. They've got good players on the bench. I walk back after Kerry's snabbing in the mix zone and you're looking at the Tottenham players who hadn't even featured and you're thinking, he's good, he's good, he's good. So you're up against stronger teams all of the time. I think tactically, United were not as sharp as Tottenham in the first half, got better in the second half. I wouldn't say that the anxiety floods in from the stands I think the fans are largely supportive A bit desperate I don't think There's times when I felt tension Or the stadium has been silenced By an opposing team The best example would be Seville 2018 Coming to Old Trafford Just completely outplaying United And Old Trafford going There wasn't that But there is a bit of shock that Whoa I do actually think that after the red card, I didn't actually immediately have the sense that United were going to throw it away.

42:02The crowd still felt very positive, very behind it. There was a moment in front of where we were, where Shaw was running down, who'd obviously been involved in all the altercation. The Spurs fans were booing him, all the United fans getting behind him. It felt very positive. The United fans are chanting at Spurs, you're going down with the city. I like that one. I think they'd had that in their back pocket for quite a long time. I was like, yeah, tick. I knew that was coming out. But I didn't have the sense immediately when Spurs went down to 10 that United were going to throw it away. I think almost because they didn't, I don't think they did retreat into themselves.

42:39I think they saw it as an opportunity if we can get a second here and we can really boost morale and maybe that left it a little bit open. So yes, there's this pattern of being unable to beat 10 men in those three games that we've just touched on. But I think this one actually felt quite different to me. It didn't feel like, you know, the City and Everton ones to me felt like a little bit of complacency and a lack of urgency against a team that sat in. Whereas this felt completely different. It felt, to be honest, just like being a bit too open, being exposed by a bit of quality and switching off for a moment.

43:11And that's not to kind of minimise the impact of it because it's really poor to throw a lead away from that situation. But I don't want to lump it in with the other two because I think it does feel a little bit different in that sense. Yeah, I'll read out a couple more emails. I mean, Aaron said, as soon as Tottenham went down to 10 men, the energy dropped. Instead of going for the jugular, the whole team let up just like against City. And then Jamie said, Spurs deserve to beat us easily. One moment of brilliance by Mbouma, one of a safe carry. But again, we have no idea how to hold on to a win.

43:40Give him credit for last season, but when it comes to doing it full-time, he's just not it. So that then kind of leads into this mood. It's interesting when we read articles on the Athletic, people sort of going there with Carrick. And obviously, I guess whenever you've got six points after six games in the bottom half, it's going to come up. And also the way that Carrick massively overachieved to get the job, you know, ordinarily, someone of his CV wouldn't be in this position, but clearly he's got that history of United and I think he wears it very well. Carrick, to be fair to him, just to sort of give him a quick mention of what he summated the game as.

44:13You could see it wasn't clicking, little bits of play, pressing too late, lots of things that we need to improve. Much better second half, got ourselves in a really good position, should have killed it off. It's a bad goal, which sums things up. Very disappointed to be in that position and not get the win. So, yeah, but it feels like, and we'll come on to the final part with Atletico Madrid after this, but it does feel like, you know, there'll be conversations around Carrick, or at least his position amongst fans in the coming weeks. He knows that. He touched on that afterwards. You can't be averaging a point a game because you're going to get relegated.

44:45Manchester United fans, we said at the start of the season, won't be pushing for a Champions League place again. And they're well short of that. He needs wins. He's needed wins right from the start. The season got off to a bad start and has been bad throughout. Won two matches. Ipswich, even they had some good spells at Old Trafford. And again, Sabah and as a Bojani team, with respect, Manchester United should be beating them at home and away. So it's been a really poor start to the season. Dropping too many points, drawing too many games, unable to hold on to leads, conceding too many late goals.

45:21These aren't one-offs now. This is becoming a pattern. And Manchester United fans are right to feel frustrated. They're right to ask questions. I don't sense any urgency or that Michael Carrick's position is under threat right now. you two may have a different opinion to me but look at the games coming up you know if you lose against atletico and you lose against leeds and you lose it when if it becomes like one winning 10 and stuff like that then it's a results business michael carrick knows that i want him to keep his job i want him to be successful but he needs wins he needs wins more than anything and he's needed them right from the start of the season and they're not coming and that worries me it really does because that squad should be miles better than where they are in the league there's decent players there so what's going wrong he mentioned that obviously a few little moments you know ever an equaliser um you know obviously tonight but it feels like that's one winning six yeah one way that's the bottom line A.

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48:06Right, let's get on to the Champions League though the competition that all Manchester United fans wanted to be in managed to get it with Carrick coming into the club obviously Sabah was a sort of a gentle opening shall we say to the competition it feels like it gets real serious real quick with a trip to Atletico Madrid on Tuesday. I'm flying there on Sunday because there weren't any flights available on Monday. Honest, I had to get the extra night in Madrid. But look at you looking at me like this. How have you got away with that? Honestly, it makes... Got Madrid on Sunday. It makes financial and logistical sense.

48:39You're all about the logistics, aren't you? Well, I'm making financial sense by going on the day of the game. Okay, fine. You can come with me if you want. No, you're all right. I'll get out there. I'll scope out for you. I'll let you know what Madrid like. I know you don't really know that city very well. One of the best cities in the world, it's that good. Yeah, I mean, listen, tell us about Atletico then, because they are... What do you know about Atletico? Well, according to the script here, they're up there in La Liga, but they're just behind Barcelona, but they're ahead of the chasing pack.

49:07So this is before United played. They won, they actually beat 10 men. They know how to do that. Ironically, Christian Romero scored the winner for them, Alaves. He obviously got sent off at Old Trafford last season when United did beat 10 men with Spurs. So they can do it, United. Anyway, Bato Atletico, that's all I've got in the programme notes so far. There's some more bullet points that I can read out in a moment, but I'm going to let you take the floor. Ask me anything you want about him. They call him Kuti Romero over there. No, it's fine. His name is actually Christian Romero. So he started well.

49:39He obviously moved from Tottenham in the summer. They've been very good in the league. They're exceptionally strong at home. This club is all about Diego Simeone. he's been the manager since 2011 i think he completely revolutionized atletico madrid he's won the league twice with them he's taken them to two champions league finals um he's talking at the moment about a team in transition which is very nice but they're also winning every week they beat real madrid that was their last win before the the international break ironically clearly doing this without their best player, Julien Alvarez, because he wanted to leave for Barcelona.

50:18So he's not playing when they play at home because he gets booed by their fans who are very, very loud, very well organised, very vocal. You'll see it for yourself. 70 ,000 people will be there in the Metropolitano on three and a half thousand United fans, 43 quid a ticket. This is good. I'm sorry. I was going to interject there, but any more stats that you've got for us? Zahkiv gives you 100 stars by Atletico Madrid. How much is a beer? Well, if you're in downtown Madrid, it's far cheaper than it will be in England. Don't ask for a Madri in Madrid because it doesn't exist in Spain. Isn't it like Leicester or somewhere?

50:51Do they brew that? It's in Yorkshire or somewhere like that. So look at their team. Alvarez, he's only played once this season, 90 minutes. Liverpool away. Do you think he'll start against you? I wouldn't be stunned, but he'll get booed by his own fans. Heavily booed. that's the his only start was away at anfield exactly so that's the mainstream view is against him you wanted to get out do one and his teammates like yeah no no fans like no no don't give me any of that do one and he's their best player all right yanoblox the goalkeeper he's fantastic romero's center half they've got four spanish world cup winners they had eight players in the world cup final because they've got all the argentinians as well like like romero pubil Alex Baena on the left the best players are Jonathan David the forward Lee the Korean attacker they've got Simeone's son on the right who's just like his dad Koke I love love love Koke I just love him I interviewed him when I was a young lad and he was a bit younger I just think he's brilliant he's not giving the ball away for 19 years that's enough of me talking about Koke the best players Grimalde at left back.

52:08They're a really, really good team. Really, really good team. So taking all that on board, Keris, and obviously your own knowledge as well, what do you think going into this game? Who do you think Kerik will pick maybe? What kind of game do you anticipate? What chance of success do you think United have? Yeah, they had us do the sort of round table pieces that we love to do on the Athletic where everyone picks sort of different aspects. And after the Champions League draw, I did one where I had Atletico as my Champions League dark horses because I think that too many people peg them as kind of a defensive set up.

52:44I remember the game against Arsenal last season that they had wearing the build-up. It was like no football's being played here. And I think they know how to play. That does them a real disservice. As Andy's saying, they've got really good talent throughout the pitch. So not only do they know how to defend, but they are not going to... they're not going to sit off Manchester United, which in a way could be a bit of a blessing because we've seen how much United struggle when the spaces don't open up. I think it will be an intense atmosphere. I think it will be intense physically, which is why I'd be quite surprised if Carrick went sort of as, perhaps as young in his team selection as he did against Sabah.

53:23I think there's a risk that some of those players get eaten alive by that crowd. But this is the dilemma he's got, right? because then you go into Edom Road on the weekend and that's a whole other kettle of fish, another very intense atmosphere, another very physical game. So this is a real test of the players' fitness. I think I would be quite surprised if he rotated heavily midweek. I think that would leave United very vulnerable. They need to go with pretty much a full-strength line-up and they've got to do that on the weekend against Leeds as well. So it's a massive test of the players' fitness.

53:57Everyone wanted them to be back in the Champions League. they wanted to be back in the Champions League they're now there so show us what you're about show us that you can do multiple game weeks and not kind of crumble under it. This is the kind of trip that you want as a fan, this is what United should be involved in, we obviously went didn't we, the last time they played the Ilanga song kicked off that was you, you started that didn't you, were you wearing a yellow jumper on our podcast and it kind of started to catch fire. One of the highlights of my life is overhearing two spanish commentators who didn't think i could understand them go are they really singing rhythm is a dancer that's fantastic i've got this great vision of those spanish people speaking in that accent but with that kind of english uh you know touch to it i tell you what united will be better prepared this time than last time yes the right back will be selected uh well in advance this time that was a disgrace last time it was a disgrace it's a a disgrace how badly prepared Manchester United were against a team who'd been working on their shape for three to four days.

55:03And that happened. And I suppose it's to the players' credit that they got a one-all draw. Alanga scored the equaliser. But the tie was over then, wasn't it? They went ahead after four or five minutes. They'd already won at Old Trafford. So they'd won 1-0. United have never beaten Atletico Madrid. Yeah, so four times they've met in competitive action. Never won. The 1991-92 Cup Minutes Cups, obviously they'd won the 91 Cup in this Cup. They then faced them, drew 1-1 at Old Trafford, lost 3-0 away at the old stadium, the Vicente Calderon. My first WRA away that, 91. Was it? I'm sorry, we're overlooking this summer's Snapdragon Cup.

55:38I'm sorry, sorry, Chris. You won it. That's because you went, right? Yeah. Yeah, we went. It was my first game as a Man United reporter. There we go. I have a proper emotional attachment to it. So you're saying, no problem, we'll go there, win 3-0, smash them. Only if it's in Stockholm in front of a very different crowd. So we can lobby for them to change the location of the game. Now, my flight on Sunday is worthless. And also, I'm not going, so maybe that's the problem. Okay, so that's your first game, wasn't it? I was introducing everyone. This is Keres, this is Keres. By the end of it, we don't cave introduce her to her nine times.

56:10That's just you and it. You know, paternal. But we won that one. But we also lost against him in 22 in Oslo. Simeone, right? He's brilliant. He's a genius. I get why he's absolutely loved. but he can be nasty as well. You know when Gary Neville managed Valencia I saw a lot of Gary and he just said how bad and how strong Simeone was with him. I got offended. I said to Gary why don't you say this to him he went alright Andy it's only a game of football. Took it a bit you know Robin Lennon there's another player international it's just full of them. Yeah. Well it's amazing isn't it how he's sustained this for so long because you mentioned two Champions League I went to one of them when you said that I was like I've been to one the one in Milan where they drew in normal time with Real Madrid, lost on penalties, and they'd already lost to Real Madrid the year previous even, or a couple of years maybe.

56:58Yeah, the first one in Lisbon. So amazing longevity, obviously very well paid, but the energy that he brings to that side, you're going to see him absolutely still directing it, aren't you, on the touchline. He'll bully it, give him a chance to. He's got the players who can, you know, they're technically good. They're a big club, they can pay good money now for players. Yeah. They're not a selling club. they always had lads like Kun Aguero came from there David De Gea they had to sell them on but they're big enough now to go for top top players they've always got the strong Argentinian links and it's going to be a really tough game what's United now win 5-1 or something Andy said we're going to win 5-1 you're talking about the Snapdragon Cup champions you'll never sing that I think that's a good place to leave it we're anticipating it's going to be sunny in Madrid let's say that it's 27 degrees I think so that's a positive for fans to get excited about, those that are travelling.

57:52I know, yeah, they're obviously a very tough team. It's going to be a huge test for United. But we will be recording, I'm told, this says the script, post-match after Atletico. Is that me and you, Andy? Yeah, it's me and you. Ian back from his jolly in Lisbon by that point? I don't know. What are we going to do, like at the stadium or find an hotel? You know, we're recording right now. I think this is probably for after the show. Right, well. Going to be one o 'clock in the morning in Madrid, isn't it? I really hope that United turn up. yeah me too please hope you turn up on the day you know you're leaving it quite late I'm leaving it late anyway so that episode will be with you on Wednesday morning thanks so much for tuning in guys thanks Andy thanks Keris until next time we'll see you cheers guys

58:56The Athletic FC.

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