In short
The episode interviews Valentina Castellani about her book Trading Beauty, an “untold history” of how art markets evolved from the end of the Western Roman Empire to today, arguing that art production and value are shaped by political, social, religious, and economic systems—not a vacuum.
Guest backgrounds
Valentina Castellani is an art-market industry veteran (worked at Sotheby’s and Gagosian) and an adjunct professor at NYU Steinhardt. She helped organize major exhibitions on Pablo Picasso and Piero Manzoni and teaches NYU’s history of the art market.
Key claims
Market models change what art is for, how it’s valued, and who commissions it. The “free market” emerges in 17th-century Holland after the Reformation; the modern gallery system is shaped by Paul Durand-Ruel’s late-19th-century promotion of Impressionists; galleries remain central because they provide validation and manage rarity.
Notable examples
Church patronage in medieval Romanesque/Gothic art (gold ultramarine from Afghanistan); Dutch Golden Age painting boom (millions of paintings; artists selling without commission); Salon des Refusés (1863) and outrage over Manet’s Le Déjeuner sur l’herbe; Durand-Ruel’s bulk buying and monographic shows (Monet, Boudin) and New York exhibitions; Berthe Weill selling early Picasso and Modigliani; Daniel-Henry Kahnweiler and Cubism representation; Gertrude Stein supporting Picasso; Caravaggio’s rejected Death of the Virgin; Joanna van Gogh-Bonger creating Van Gogh’s market and legacy; women artists under restriction (Artemisia Gentileschi, Plautilla Nelli); Harlem Renaissance alternatives like Just Above Midtown; pandemic-era digitalization and social media as validation, not replacement for sales.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding the Art Market
0:21 to 1:36
An overview of the art market's complexity and Castellani's insights.
“The art market is a famously opaque place, a world of handshake agreements and big dollar private deals.”
The Evolution of Art Production
1:36 to 3:00
Discussion on the historical context and patronage models of art production.
“the undersung role of women in this narrative, and the ways that artists have cannily enticed the market across time.”
The Role of the Church in Art
3:00 to 5:02
Exploration of how the Church influenced art commissioning in the Middle Ages.
“So our romantic, very contemporary idea of the artist going to their studio and waiting for the inspiration and producing a work of art did not exist.”
Changing Perceptions of Artists
5:02 to 6:34
Insights into how artists were viewed and valued throughout history.
“And for example, the quality of the material use was considered much more important than the artist creations ideas.”
The Birth of the Modern Art Market
6:34 to 11:05
Key moments that led to the establishment of the modern art market in Holland.
“Okay, well, I would highlight two different moments.”
Paul Durand-Ruel and the Impressionists
11:05 to 14:00
Durand-Ruel's impact on the Impressionist artists and the art market.
“And these salons were basically the only venue where artists could exhibit their works.”
The Rise of Modern Art in Paris
14:00 to 16:42
Learn how Paris became the hub for modern art and the challenges artists faced.
“So Paris was really the first modern capital.”
Innovations in Art Exhibitions
16:42 to 19:29
Discover how innovative exhibition strategies transformed the art market.
“But his real intuition and what, according to all historians, what really changed the fate of Impressionists, is when he accepted in 1886 an invitation coming from America to exhibit his work in New York.”
Courageous Dealers and Their Impact
19:29 to 22:11
Explore how various art dealers supported and promoted new artists.
“Unfortunately, she lacked the mean then to follow their careers.”
The Role of Art in Society
22:11 to 23:38
Understand the complex relationship between art, its market, and societal values.
“It was this Laerzio Cherubini was a papa lawyer.”
Show all 17 chapters
Artists as Market Players
23:38 to 26:06
Learn how artists actively shaped their roles and identities in the art market.
“Can you talk about the artist as a market player?”
Women in Art: Breaking Barriers
26:06 to 28:00
Explore the challenges and achievements of women artists throughout history.
“I'm glad that you bring up that through line, that thread of women, because that appears throughout the book.”
Joanna Van Gogh Bungen's Influence on Art Legacy
28:00 to 31:30
Discover how Joanna Van Gogh Bungen shaped the market and legacy of Van Gogh's art.
“I think some listeners will be familiar with kind of the trajectory of, say, female surrealists or abstract expressionists.”
Neglected Voices in Art History
31:30 to 33:14
Explore the challenges faced by female and African-American artists in art history.
“And it has been very difficult for them for a century to find their way as artists.”
The Evolving Art Market Landscape
33:14 to 36:50
Learn about the changes in the art market and the rise of social media's influence.
“You're getting at something that is so important.”
Future Trends in Art Representation
36:50 to 42:00
Understand the shifting dynamics of artist representation and the role of galleries.
“But of course, the way of accessing the information, particularly in a global world, is different.”
Celebrating Artistic Support and Education
42:00 to 42:36
Learn about the importance of supporting young artists and the value of educational resources.
“I mean, these young artists barely getting by and someone comes and believes in them.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Valentina Castellani:Art was never produced in a vacuum, but it was always the result of political, social, religious and economic system. This system determined different market models that are those that I analyze.
0:20I'm Andrew Russeth, and this is The Art Angle, a podcast by Artnet News.
0:33The art market is a famously opaque place, a world of handshake agreements and big dollar private deals. How does it actually operate? And how has it changed over the centuries? In a richly researched new book titled Trading Beauty, Valentina Castellani provides surprising answers, drawing on a long and storied career in the industry. She's worked at Sotheby's and Gagosian, where she helped organize landmark exhibitions devoted to Pablo Picasso and Piero Manzoni. Now she's an adjunct professor at New York University's Steinhardt School, where she teaches a class about the art market. Castellani's book, which was published by Gagosian, reveals how popes, aristocrats, plucky entrepreneurs, and brave true believers developed new ways of commissioning, funding, and selling art, from medieval frescoes to avant-garde conceptual pieces.
1:27It's a wild ride, and it spans some 1 ,500 years. She joined me on The Art Angle to delve into her findings. During our conversation, she uncorked stories about maverick dealers and patrons, the undersung role of women in this narrative, and the ways that artists have cannily enticed the market across time. Perhaps most importantly, she makes the case that the art market's relevance extends far beyond money. Valentina, thank you for coming on The Art Angle.
1:57Valentina Castellani:Thank you so much for inviting me. Staring at your book right now, which is just an astonishing kind of volume that looks at the history of art markets, as the subtitle goes, from the end of the Western Roman Empire up until the present, 1500 years. How did it come about? Why did you want to write a book like this? Well, it happened by chance, if you want. When I quit Gagosian, I was invited to teach a course at NYU on the history of the art market. So I put together a syllabus and I realized that such a book didn't exist. So I started to put together lecture notes and looking at my slides and then the pandemic hit and I started to write it.
2:40Valentina Castellani:At the core of my book is that art was never produce in a vacuum. But it was always the result of political, social, religious and economic system. This system determined different market models that are those that I analyze in my book. I start from the Middle Ages, as you are saying, when the dominant model was the only model was the patronage model, meaning that for a work of art to exist, somebody being the church, an aristocrat, a rich banker, has to ask an artist to produce the work of art. So our romantic, very contemporary idea of the artist going to their studio and waiting for the inspiration and producing a work of art did not exist.
3:31Valentina Castellani:What is interesting is that different market models derive also different criteria, valuations. So, for example, particularly at the beginning of the Middle Ages, when the church was basically the main commissioner of the work of art, because as you know, when the Roman Empire fall in 476, there was a big vacuum that was gradually filled by the church that became the only link amongst population that were very different culturally and for traditions. And so the church became at the beginning, the only commissioner of art and the function of art for the church were mainly building places where the community of the worshipper could gather and also transmit the word of God to a population that was most of the time illiterate.
4:28Valentina Castellani:So this beautiful apparatus of sculptures that we have in the Romanesque and Gothic churches were a way to transmit to people the message and the teaching of God. So it was a didactic and practical function. And at the time, artists were really consider artisans. I mean, their creative personal contribution was not considered at all. The criteria were different. At the beginning, many of them were operating anonymously. And for example, the quality of the material use was considered much more important than the artist creations ideas. For example, the use of gold of this pigment ultramarine that was incredibly expensive because it was by grinding lapis lazuli coming from the mountain of Afghanistan.
5:27Valentina Castellani:So I think it's very interesting to see how different market models shaped how art was perceived at the time, because now when we look at works, I don't know, by Giotto or from Giotto we talk about masterpieces and indeed those are masterpieces that touches us, that talk to us, but at the time they were perceived in a very different way. And I think it's very interesting to analyze how they were produced, how they circulate, how they were valued. Yes. What I love is that it really does read like an alternate history of art almost. You were taking us through the centuries, not through the idea of iconography or symbols, but truly, yeah, how they were seen and how these artworks came to be.
6:16And I'm so glad you start back there in the distant past as this sense of, you know, where we were coming from. And I want to make sure we jump throughout time as we go. Coming more to the present, I think people would be really interested to hear when does the kind of modern art world as we think of it today come into being, meaning dealers representing artists?
6:37Valentina Castellani:Okay, well, I would highlight two different moments. One is the birth of the first free market, meaning a market that was not based on commission. And that happens in Holland during the 17th century, during the so-called Dutch Golden Age, because religious and political circumstances change after the Reformation. So after Luther in 1517 nails his thesis criticizing the selling of indulgences and basically, although he didn't think it would happen, he triggers the Reformation that split Europe after very bloody wars between Catholic and Protestant countries, Poland becomes a Protestant republic.
7:26Valentina Castellani:So that means that the commissioners of art are completely different. The church does not commission art anymore. A court doesn't exist. So artists really have to reinvent themselves to meet the taste and the desires of the mercantile and bourgeois classes that becomes the art buyers. So this affects both the genre, because these new buyers are not interested in religious, mythological grand scenes. They are interested in seeing an artist that celebrates themselves, that celebrates their way of living, so their landscape. So landscape becomes a genre in itself and not just a setting for historical or mythological or religious scenes, still lives, because it's a way to celebrate the richness and wealth and sophistication of their lives.
8:22Valentina Castellani:And of course, interior scene, like the scenes painted by Vermeer, for example. What is even more interesting is that Holland, although it was a small country of just two million people, has a wealth that is very much distributed. That means that also the working classes become art buyers. So first of all, the production of art is enormous. It has been calculated that during the 17th century, five million paintings were produced and that Holland had one artist every 2 ,000 inhabitants, where Italy during the Renaissance, that is another time of artists flourishing, had one every 10 ,000. So there are many artists and many of them were not producing on commission.
9:12Valentina Castellani:They were just producing for a free market. And this is when the specialization of the artists starts. So there were artists only producing winter landscape scenes or still lifes. Those works were sold in what were the embryo of the first art fairs, for example, that were fairs with many different goods and some of them were pieces of art or in tavern or directly from artist studio. So I would highlight this as the birth of a free market. And then, of course, a moment that is really a fundamental shift is when Paul Durand-Ruel at the end. Yes, our hero. Paul Durand-Ruel at the end of the 19th century established the model for the gallery as a promoter of new artists.
10:03Valentina Castellani:And this, I think is a very fascinating story because it is the time when the impressionists were starting to produce their works. And it was the time when the French art world and Paris was indeed the epicenter of the art for the Western world, was dominated by the academy. So it was a centralized system of approval in two different ways. The first one is that the academy dictated a hierarchical order of genre. So what was good paintings, the most sought after important ones were the mythological, religious grand scene, followed by landscape, by portraits, the style that had to be precise, very realistic, And also, and this is the element that is very interesting for our story, is that the Academy organized salons, the most important of which was the Salon of Paris.
11:06Valentina Castellani:And these salons were basically the only venue where artists could exhibit their works. So meaning finding potential buyers, potential commissions. So it was a system very much centralized. In my book, I call it the dictatorship of the Academy of Fine Arts. The first push against this market is the very famous Salon de Refusé in 1863, the Salon of the Refuse, when artists, of course, in order to be accepted in this Salon, had to submit their request to the Academy that would select the works. So the number of the artists that had been rejected was so high that Napoleon III allowed the institution of an alternative salon that was called the Salon of the Refuse.
11:55Valentina Castellani:And this is where Cezanne, Monet, Manet in particular exhibited their works. The reaction was of outrage, mainly, particularly for a painting like, for example, the Dejeuner sur l 'herbe, the luncheon on the grass that was considered ridiculous. Baffling, obscene. Yeah, baffling. Also because it depicted a naked woman. Nudes had been part of the canon for centuries. But the woman that is depicted there with two completely full-dressed men was a recognizable woman, this model Victorine Moran. Her dress are scattered on the ground. That means that she arrived and took her clothes off. The narrative is not clear.
12:43Valentina Castellani:So this is a painting that really triggered outrage. But, you know, it was the first nail in a system that was about to crumble and being changed. And Durand-Ruel really changed. And it was a combination of a new language, that of the Impressionists, that went against all the rules of the academy. Because the impressionists and the movement was really started by four young artists, Monet, Basile, Renoir and Sisley, that found themselves in Paris coming from different parts of the country, from different backgrounds. There were four youngsters, you know, that studied in an alternative academy because they had not been admitted to the Académie des Beaux-Arts.
13:28Valentina Castellani:And they started wandering the countryside and paint what they saw without preliminary sketches, just trying to reproduce on canvas the impression of light and color. So the technique, the style, the subject, and also they depicted the Paris that they saw around us. And this is very interesting for our story, because Paris was going through profound changes. The Baron Osemane was completely redesigning the city. So Paris was really the first modern capital. And the style of the academy felt really stiff and out of date. So the reaction of the public towards this new style was rejections. There are letters, for example, in which Monet laments that he doesn't have the money to buy food.
14:24Valentina Castellani:So until these painters, by chance, Monet and Pissarro met Durand-Ruel, who was in London like them during the French-Prussian War. And Durand-Ruel had the intuition of betting on these artists, of promoting them. And so back in Paris, he started to buy their works in bulk. The numbers you have are staggering. It's staggering. And this is, I have to underscore it for the listeners, the sort of research you've done is incredible. So talking about that moment in Holland where five million paintings are being produced, that these artists are becoming entrepreneurs in their own right. For Durand-Ruel, you're right.
15:06He acquired at least a thousand Monets, 1500 Renoir, 200 Manet. I mean, this is, what, tens of billions of dollars in art now. Tens of billions, yes. I mean, it's astonishing. So, again, tell us more about his innovations and what he did.
15:21Valentina Castellani:Yes, absolutely. His intuition was that a new model was required. In order for these artists to be successful, he had to put in place a strategy. First of all, as we said, buying in bulk. So did he have a sort of monopoly on the work? But nobody wanted the work. So he started to organize monographic exhibitions. And that, again, was something completely new. At the time, only the Musée du Luxembourg, that was the only museum that exhibited contemporary works, had a rule that only two paintings by the same artist could be exhibited. So he organized these exhibitions devoted to Monet, Boudin. And there are, I don't know if I quote them in my book, but a journalist that said in a very despicable way.
16:09Valentina Castellani:So after Monet, now we have an exhibition of Boudin. And if it's not enough, neither. So that was fascinating. It's fascinating to think. A solo show was a new innovation. It was a really innovation. Also, he understood the importance of educating the public. So he started to publish catalogs, books in which he was explaining the new art. He opened his own apartment to the public, I think one day a week, so that they could see a sort of, he had all these paintings, a sort of collection. But his real intuition and what, according to all historians, what really changed the fate of Impressionists, is when he accepted in 1886 an invitation coming from America to exhibit his work in New York.
16:59Valentina Castellani:You have to consider, you know, you have to take a ship, you know. This is a real undertaking. Yeah, exactly. It's a big undertaking. Expenses were paid. This exhibition that was incredibly successful, both with critics and the public and buyers, at the point that he opened an outpost in New York. And the success in New York reverberated back in Europe and France. And I would say from the end of the 80s, 90s, impression is started to sell well.
17:38One of the real exciting through lines in your book is that especially when you reach the modern era, you show that the successful dealers are the ones that had an innovation, that latched on to something. Tell us some more about dealers who had these kind of eureka moments for how they could innovate.
17:55Valentina Castellani:Of course. First of all, once this model was established, it remains the model to promote contemporary and living artists. So there is then a new generation of dealers and artists. So, for example, Volard, who promoted Cezanne and the artists that work with Picasso, for example. A character that I love is that of Berthe Vale. She's been discovered now. There was an exhibition at the Grey Gallery here in New York. A Grey Little Show, yeah. Yes. And then this year, the travel to Paris. But she was this Jewish woman of very modest means who opened a tiny gallery using her dowry. First of all, she sold the first works by Picasso.
18:45Valentina Castellani:When Picasso visited Paris in 1900, he arrived in Paris. He was 19 years old. He didn't know anyone. He didn't speak French. And so he relied on a sort of middleman, this Permagnac, who put him in touch with Bertheveil, who sold some drawings by him, some book files. And she's the one, for example, who exhibited his first Blue Period paintings. And she gave Modigliani his only show that happened while it was alive that was shut down by the police because she exhibited in the window these nudes that we all love now and that they sell for hundreds of millions of dollars that were considered indecent.
19:28Valentina Castellani:She was really courageous and she bet on these new artists. Unfortunately, she lacked the mean then to follow their careers. So as soon as these artists became more successful, but this is actually what happens now, too. Exactly. They went with other galleries. Another very interesting dealer was Daniel Enrican Weiler. He was coming from a family of bankers, German bankers, but he decided to work in the arts. And he devoted himself to the promotion of a specific group of artists, mainly the Cubists. So he's the one who finally gave Picasso representation because it took Picasso a long time. He settled down in Paris in 1904, but he only had representation, I think, in 1912 with Kant Weiler.
20:20Valentina Castellani:In the meantime, he tried with Volart. Volart gave him a show, but that never turned into representation. I think this is how we can see that the market is a system. He was very much supported by Gertrude Stein, who was a visionary collector, who had a salon that was open to writers. You know, if you read the list, it's amazing, like from Hemingway's Fitzgerald. It's unbelievable. Yeah, exactly. And she supported both Picasso, for example, and Matisse. She bought paintings by them and they were hung in her apartment that was open by appointment. And one day a week, it was a sort of open day. And so this is where a lot of critics and artists saw Picasso's works for the first time.
21:13Valentina Castellani:And for example, Michael Frigera thinks that this support is what gave Picasso the courage to embark on a new style that is that of the Demoiselle d 'Avignon in 1907 that that brought to Cubism. What I think is fascinating is that there has always been an interaction. And this is why I say that art was never produced in a vacuum, because there was always an interaction between artists and their environment, even when they were refusing their environment. I'm saying this to say that it's very far from what I think to say that the market is always right. Sometimes the market is wrong. Van Gogh is an example.
21:55Valentina Castellani:But then there is another example that for me is very telling, and it's the fact that The Death of the Virgin by Caravaggio, that for me is one of the most fantastic paintings ever produced by a Western artist that is now in the Louvre, was rejected by its commissioner. It was this Laerzio Cherubini was a papa lawyer. He had commissioned Caravaggio. Caravaggio was a very successful and sought after painter, though he had this troubled life, as you know, he killed a man. He had to flee Rome. He introduced this style that was incredible, influential, although he didn't have a workshop, but, you know, his approach to reality, bring reality into the canvas, reality that is not idealized at all.
22:46Valentina Castellani:And his use of light, dark and the death of the canvas, if you remember, it is like this woman surrounded by the apostle. he probably used a prostitute that had drowned in the river Tiber and she's swollen. This is a shocking painting. That was a shocking painting. In fact, the commissioner didn't want it. And he asked somebody called Carlos Saraceni that is, I guess, unknown to 99.9%. Lost in history to some degree. Lost in history. And the painting that substituted it is like a Madonna ascending to, you know. Different vibe. Yes, completely different vibe. So the market sometimes is wrong. And that's what's really moving about the book, that yes, the market can be wrong, Vermeer, for example, and then true believers come along, especially with the avant-garde, and they support people and they make sure that these things enter the canon, enter the history book.
23:42You've touched on it a little bit, but one of the aspects of the book that I really love as well is that you show the artist throughout history being a real player in the art market, even with Rembrandt and his signature, for example. Can you talk about the artist as a market player?
23:56Valentina Castellani:Absolutely. The artists were never just passive players in the market. Well, Rembrandt is a very interesting example because he was, well, incredibly, of course, talented. He stopped his own workshop at 19 years old. And he started, instead of signing himself as Rembrandt Van Ryn, he started to use just Rembrandt, like a brand that is something like only Italian artists like Raphael of Michelangelo. Angelo had done before. So he was very much aware of his talent and his importance. And he was very sought after. He was helped by a dealer who helped him get commissions. So he was still operating on commissions.
24:40Valentina Castellani:The commissioners were not the church, not the court, but bourgeois people. So, for example, one of his first very successful painting is the anatomy lesson of the Dr. Tulip. And the guilt of surgeon would have an open dissection, I think, once a year. So the subject was not a subject that Rembrandt introduced. But what he introduces is this is where his genius lies, is action. He tells a story. If you compare it to other subjects by other artists, he introduced movement, he introduced a narrative. So one other aspect that I hope and I think comes out of my book is that artists most of the time have operated within restriction, restriction imposed by their patrons, restriction imposed by external circumstances.
25:41Valentina Castellani:like, for example, and I would like to touch upon this later on women, for example, nevertheless, great artists have always been able to produce works that remains, works that touches us, that tell us stories, that make us, I think, reflect and think about our human condition. So I think it's important to know that these artists have indeed operating within restrictions. Yes. I'm glad that you bring up that through line, that thread of women, because that appears throughout the book. And you highlight these very interesting moments, some of which were new to me. For example, is it in Bologna that had a...
26:22Valentina Castellani:Claudinelli? Yes. She's in Florence. That is a fantastic story. So, of course, women had really a difficult time to become artists. First of all, in a patriarchal society, women had difficulties, many fields, not only the art field, but they were denied access to education. So most of the women that were successful were daughters of painters, like, for example, Artemisa Gentileschi, because they could somehow receive training from their fathers. So Plautilla Nelly was a nun. She was completely self-taught and she set up a workshop in the convent where she was. Yeah, exactly where she was. And she taught other sisters to paint.
27:11Valentina Castellani:And so they became very active and economically independent. And this is, I think, an example when an external situation of limitation pushes this individual, this woman, to become very inventive. And Plautilla and Ellie produce the only Last Supper painted by a woman for the refectory of her convent and is six meters across. And what is interesting is that it is on canvas. Whereas, you know, if you think like the Last Supper by Leonardo is a fresco. And that, again, because the fresco technique requires really teaching. And of course, she didn't have the training. Amazing. Amazing. And you do that all the way through to the present.
27:59You offer these case studies. I think some listeners will be familiar with kind of the trajectory of, say, female surrealists or abstract expressionists. But can you highlight some kind of more recent stories? Of course. Yes.
28:12Valentina Castellani:There is a story, although she is not a painter, that I think is really fascinating and is that of Joanna Van Gogh Bungen, who is the one who basically created Van Gogh's market and legacy. Because when Van Gogh died, as we know, he shot himself in 1890 and he died after an agony of two days, I think. A market for his work didn't exist. He had sold one work, the Red Vineyards. But now scholars tend to think that he was valued by his peers and probably that if he had lived longer, he would have eventually had a market. But we don't know. He was also a very highly troubled man. As we know, he was interned in an asylum in St.
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29:03Valentina Castellani:Remy for a year. So when he dies, his brother, Tio, he had always been his main supporter and advisor. But he dies six months after. So his widow, Joanna, who was 28 years old at the time, find herself with a lot of paintings of potentially no value. This is a real problem. It is a real problem, you know, to find yourself with like 800 Van Gogh, right? What do you do? Where do you store them? How do you make a market? And she develops techniques that really, yes. You know, she was amazingly intelligent because she developed a strategy on two fronts. The first one is to create alliances with dealers.
29:45Valentina Castellani:For example, the cassiers in Germany, in France, she worked with, I think, Bernard Jeune because Vollard had organized an exhibition of Van Gogh, but then he had stepped out of that market. So she developed a network of galleries where to exhibit the work by Vincent. And very cleverly, she only made available a certain quantity of them to create desire, not flood the market. And she kept always from which exhibition certain works that then in the end they became the core of the Van Gogh Museum, what is now the Van Gogh Museum. And the other intuition that she had was that in order for the public and the critic to appreciate Van Gogh's work, it was fundamental to know who he was.
30:37Valentina Castellani:And Van Gogh had written hundreds and hundreds of letters, mainly to his brother. And so she started these meticulous works of writing them, translating them until they were published. And that, of course, helped arise interest in Van Gogh. So it was a combination of market and I would say more cultural promotion. And it's incredible that it was a woman because this is something, to be honest, that I didn't know before embarking in the preparation of this course, that Van Gogh's market is really not only market, but his legacy, his appreciation as an artist is really due to her. It's amazing. And so young and finding this way to, yes, just have his work permeate the culture.
31:23And just to repeat what you said, to have the museum then develop from that core collection. Astonishing.
31:29Valentina Castellani:One of the reasons I talk about so many women is A, because I think that women have been really neglected by art history. And it has been very difficult for them for a century to find their way as artists. And also the path is not finished because maybe in our Western world, women have the same rights as men. But if you think I was reading the other day that 130 million young girls are out of the educational system. And like in Afghanistan, women are denied the access to secondary education and university. I think there is a long path to go. So I really think that what Chimamanda Ngoziadik has said, we should not be feminist, is very true.
32:16Yes. It's such a great line that comes through in your book. Always checking in with, OK, we're seeing the big names, we're seeing the superstars. But what was happening for the rare women who were able to carve out these?
32:28Valentina Castellani:Also, African-Americans, there were fantastic artists, the Harlem Renaissance, for example, that were completely cut out from the system, cut out from the market. And they had to come up with alternative galleries, of which Just Above Midtown is the most important one. I'm happy that MoMA dedicated to Linda Goodbryant an exhibition a few years ago. Of course, the aim was to sell artists, to give them a place where to exhibit their work. But it was also a place where to congregate, exchange ideas. So it was a model that it was slightly different from just the gallery model. And again, they were forced to find an alternative model.
33:13Valentina Castellani:So there's always been an adjustment between the social, economic and political situation and how the artists have been able to navigate that. You're getting at something that is so important. And I think it's almost the unwritten thesis of your book, which is that, yeah, a thriving market and thriving places for selling art, for showing art. It's all intertwined. Totally. Even to think about like that Castelli moment that you write about where Warhol walks in, sees Lichtenstein's work and said, whoa, I need to change and kind of elevate my work. Of course, Castelli then creates this incredible art historical moment.
33:51These things that are about money are really about more than money.
33:54Valentina Castellani:Absolutely. And it was not love at first sight between Castelli and Warhol. Also, yeah. I want to make sure we go really up to the present because you close with two chapters. You have a fantastic chapter about Chinese art, which I think for me really distilled kind of through lines that I'd never seen put on place before. And then you really address what's been going on in recent years with the pandemic. One thing you mentioned is advisories, which we've seen an artist agents, which I know that some of your former colleagues at Kagogin have been involved in, and you were involved with 291 a little bit.
34:26Valentina Castellani:I was involved for some time, not too long. My book examined very different models. So in the last chapter, I examined facts that I think are affecting not only the market, but the art ecosystem. For example, of course, the digitalization that has been accelerated during the pandemic when basically looking at works of art and art of art was the only way to have access to them. The role of social media. I don't think in the sense that social platform have become a substitute for sales. I mean, I know that there are sales that happen through them, but if you read the Art Basel report, the vast majority of sales still happen through galleries or auction houses, but as a way, A, for artists to, of course, communicate directly with their followers and also as a sort of validation mechanism.
35:24Valentina Castellani:Because this is something that before only the gallery or the museums would do. And as I said, for example, when we go from the academy system to the gallery system, so that shifts the approval mechanism towards the market. Now, I think it's much more spread out. The gatekeepers are not quite what they once were. Yes, exactly. Another thing that is happening is a generational shift. It has been estimated that in the next, I think, 10 or 20 years, 84 trillion of dollars will be passed on by the baby boomers generation to their heirs. So first of all, this is what is bringing to the market incredible collections like, for example, Sign New House or Paul Allen.
36:14Valentina Castellani:At the same time, there might be a change in taste because this generation, I think, is interested in something that talk to them in a more personal way. I think what is a social platform are providing is a different way of accessing information. Yes. And this is something that I think is very important. So before it was, you know, you had to walk into a gallery to see an exhibition. Now, people still do it. And this is something I tell my students all the time. Art has to be seen in person. Thank you for it. I think it's important. Yes, absolutely. But of course, the way of accessing the information, particularly in a global world, is different.
36:57Valentina Castellani:Another thing that globalization has accentuated is the fact that, of course, there is a much larger market that want more or less the same works. And the production is indeed limited. I remember when I was working at Gagosian, you know, each artist has an output of, you know, 10, 20 paintings a year and you have the whole world wanted them. So what I think has happened as a consequence is that the distance between the primary market, meaning works that are being sold in galleries and the secondary market has become much shorter. The auction houses, when I worked at Sotheby's at the end of the 90s, when I started my career in London, used to sell some contemporary works, but that they were coming from collectors and that had been on the market and out for some time.
37:53Valentina Castellani:Now this distance is much shorter because the auction houses have become for new collectors the only way they can access new works. Because for a new collector, it's not easy to buy, even if they are extremely rich. You can do this experiment. I always tell my students to do it. Walk into a gallery and ask for a prize. You're never told one. As a journalist, it does not go well. Yeah, exactly. But even as you know, and I know it was like that when I was at Gagos. I know that it is like that. It is very annoying because you would think, but, you know, these are works to say. But I think there is a reason behind that.
38:31Valentina Castellani:And it's the fact that galleries are also custodians of an artist's work. So it's very important to select the collection where they end up. Because you don't want the works to end up with, you know, people that just drop them at auction when the market goes up. So the gallery has a big responsibility towards an artist. So, of course, auction houses now work like somehow as galleries for those that cannot access the market through the galleries. And it's true that there are a lot of artists, for example, that feel less the need to just work with a gallery. This is exactly what I was hoping we would move toward.
39:12One thing I am really curious about, maybe as a kind of final question, is looking forward, you're highlighting the rise of social media, the kind of churn of auctions. And yes, artists may be feeling less of a need for gallery or working with multiple galleries. I'm curious if you see the trends that you chart around representation, around the artist-dealer relationship. Are they changing? Are they breaking down? How do you see that?
39:38Valentina Castellani:The on-standsor is, I don't know. I think that the gallery model is still central in the sense that it provides validation and markets do need validation. An example for this that supports this concept is when Damien Hirst organized an auction in 2008 of more than 200 works that were consigned to Sotheby's, beautiful inside my head forever. They were works directly from his studio. The auction was incredibly successful, but then his market suffered. It is true that, you know, the financial crisis. I remember I was in Moscow with Larry when that auction happened. And as you remember, Lehman Brothers bankrupted the day before or after.
40:27Valentina Castellani:So it was almost really super successful auction when they were the first sign of what would be a very dire financial crisis. But I think that ultimately no artists have repeated that model is because the gallery provides validation and you cannot flood the market with too many works because rarity and unattainability are two elements that fuel, of course, prices and also the aura around an artist. So I think the galleries are still central. It's true that there are other forms of helping artists, of working with artists. I think art agencies are one of them. This is my personal opinion. I don't see them replacing completely the gallery, also because usually they do not provide an exhibition space and they do not really provide validation, but they support and help with the gallery.
41:28Valentina Castellani:There are artists that work with individual agents. So it's a very mixed model, I think, that we see now. I'm more concerned about the fact, for example, that small and medium galleries are having difficulties because, you know, small and medium gallery are fundamental in the ecosystem because they're those that discover the new artists. Yes. You know, because before being in a big gallery, you start there. So I hope that they will find a way to navigate. And it brings us back to even what you were saying earlier about Durand-Ruel. I mean, these young artists barely getting by and someone comes and believes in them.
42:07We need to make sure we still have that way of doing it. And I should say in your book, you have wonderful chapters about kind of alternative models. And so there's just there's so much to get into. I wish we could talk about this all day. It's an astonishing book. It's such a delight. And also we should mention Beautifully Illustrated. And I just feel like your students are lucky to crack open this book. And I hope other universities pick it up and find ways to use it because it's such a great introduction.
42:32Valentina Castellani:Valentina, thank you so much for making time for this. It was an honor. Thank you so much. Pleasure. The Yard Angle is produced by Sonia Manalili with contributions from Ben Davis and Caroline Goldstein. Thanks for listening and see you next week.
From the publisher
The art market is a famously opaque place, a world of handshake agreements and big-dollar private deals. How does it actually operate, and how has it changed over the centuries? In a richly researched new book titled Trading Beauty: Art Market Histories from the Altar to the Gallery, Valentina Castellani provides surprising answers, drawing on a long and storied career in the industry.
She's worked at Sotheby's and Gagosian, where she helped organize landmark exhibitions devoted to Pablo Picasso and Piero Manzoni. Now, she's an adjunct professor at New York University's Steinhardt School, where she teaches a class about the art market. Castellani's book, which is published by Gagosian, reveals how popes, aristocrats, plucky entrepreneurs, and brave true believers developed new ways of commissioning, funding, and selling art, from medieval frescoes to avant-garde conceptual pieces. It's a wild ride, and it spans some 1,500 years.
She joined Andrew Russeth on The Art Angle to delve into her findings. During our conversation, she uncorked stories about maverick dealers and patrons, the undersung role of women in this narrative, and the ways that artists have cannily enticed the market across time. Perhaps most importantly, she makes the case that the art market's relevance extends far beyond money.




