The Round-Up: Louvre Heist!, Europe's Art Market Reboot, and the Queasy Art of Sora

14:23Hettie Judah:There was a German ladder company that got its nose in the trough.

14:27Ben Luke:Well, the ladder company that makes that ladder that they used had an ad that said, when you need to move things fast and just literally took Associated Press image for their campaign, which is crazy. And Ikea also didn't add. I'm interested in the theory that it's a criminal network operating across French museums. I mean, there was another theft on the same day of hundreds of thousands of pounds of silver and gold coins. And then loads of raw material stolen from the Natural History Museum in Paris last month. And now they're starting to think these are all connected, which would be crazy. That's interesting to learn because there were two heists in Germany.

15:06Ben Luke:the Bota Museum, where that big 220-pound Canadian gold coin got taken with a wheelbarrow, and then there was the Green Vault heist in 2019. Some of the suspects were connected in those two heists.

15:17Hettie Judah:And it is interesting to note that these are jewel and gold thefts. They're not art thefts because art is very hard to unload. These items were priceless. These are treasures of the French nation that relate to Napoleonic history. However, we don't know whether it was a shopping list, whether there's some, you know, secret collector who is a huge Empress Eugenie fan. But it seems at least very possible that it's about raw materials, like that these are being viewed as raw materials. Because, you know, the one that I think of is the theft of Marito Catalan's golden toilet from Blenheim Palace a few years back, which is a solid gold toilet.

16:02Hettie Judah:That's a conceptual art joke. And that was not stolen for some secret conceptual art fan. It was stolen to melt it down for gold.

16:11Ben Luke:Yeah. And then you can move it so easily. It's true. A lot easier than moving that toilet before. Anyway, it's quite heavy.

16:18Hettie Judah:When I first heard that it happened at 9.30 a.m. in the morning and not at night, that really stunned me. And then one of the things as I've looked into it that stands out to me is that that might be a suggestion that supports your idea, Joe, that it's some sort of professional ring in that they seem to have known that that would be a good time to do it in that that's just when the museum is opening. So there are crowds coming in from one side. And so security is preoccupied with that. And also there are security regulations that guards have to protect visitors first and the art second, which is exactly what they did.

17:00Hettie Judah:They took four minutes to get the stuff, which is a little bit long for a heist in a way, even though it seems fast to us. But they seem to have known exactly how to leave themselves a window. So there's a lot of talk about whether or not it's an inside job. God knows. We'll find out. You know, stay tuned.

17:16Ben Luke:Yeah, I think that very is true, but I reckon there must be a part of them that wanted to cause a scandal, which they did very well.

17:25Hettie Judah:Interesting. Interesting. Well, watch the site. We'll update things as they happen. The French are very discreet. They actually think that Americans are really barbaric in how they parade suspects in front of the cameras before they're even accused.

17:41Ben Luke:That's the law, actually, I think. You can't until someone is convicted.

17:45Hettie Judah:I tend to agree with them. I think it's exactly the kind of media frenzy that would potentially lead to a lot of false arrests. And I'm not sure how much you can trust the authorities. But in any case, keep your eyes on the site. I think we should move on to more benign goings on, hopefully. I don't know. But Joe, there were art fairs in Paris most recently and then in London where you're based. And Kate, you went to London, right? And so we want to check in on the state-of-the-art market. What was the news from this month of art events?

18:21Ben Luke:Well, I think the news from both fairs is somewhat promising, given how unpromising things have been looking lately in the art market. There were reported signs of some recovery, better mood, better sales. I didn't go to Paris, but from the London perspective, Art Basel Paris continues to pose a challenge to London. France's art market has benefited from Brexit, whereas the UK's obviously hasn't. And there's a lot of talk when you're in the tent, the mega galleries are saving their best stuff for Paris, which doesn't feel great when you're used to having the top slot in the autumn art world calendar and feeling like top dog.

18:58Ben Luke:So I think there's been for a few years now a bit of a London versus Paris debate, which some would like to call passé, but I think is alive. But I think it's a good thing. It's reinvigorating. Yeah, it does feel that London understandably really wants to move past that narrative. But I would argue that maybe there is another narrative that is emerging, which is Basel versus itself in a certain sense, because Art Basel Paris is not only what I mean, it sort of has eclipsed frieze in some senses, but it's also by some opinions eclipsing Art Basel in Switzerland. You know, just to note, someone texted me like, see you in Basel.

19:38Ben Luke:And then like 20 minutes later was like, I mean, Paris. I think that just sort of encapsulates.

19:44Hettie Judah:Well, that's a branding problem on their part.

19:48Ben Luke:Perhaps. I mean, the fact of naming a city and then naming another city afterwards. But it is true that a lot of the big price tag works on the secondary market were in Paris this year, even more so than in Basel. like Hauser & Wirth had an abstract Gerhard Wischte for 23 million sold in their booth and Modigliani was at Pace for 10 million. So this is kind of inventory is going through Paris, which is quite substantial, which is not the story of London anymore. But that's kind of cool, right, Jo? It feels like freeze London is trying to lean into its younger side. Absolutely, which I'm very happy to see.

20:22Ben Luke:I think London has realized, okay, we're never going to be as chic as Paris, maybe high net worth individuals, they want to live the Paris dream and stay in a five star hotel. And we maybe don't have that. But what's our USP? And I've been thinking a lot about Frise when it started in 2003. I wasn't there. But by all accounts, it was riotous, art was eccentric, the focus on contemporary art felt fresh. And obviously, there was the context of young British artists was a very recent phenomenon. And that was what London was good at. Two decades later, there's a lot more fairs, but there's a lot more homogenisation and fatigue.

20:59Ben Luke:So I think London has, well, last year it flipped the format and it put fresher, younger galleries at the front and they have to do solo booths. And a lot of those booths were the talk of the fair. I think people were taking pictures of them. They were unusual, they were wacky. And that is London leaning back to its roots in a way that feels fun and has changed this narrative to London as a hot house for young talent and for new galleries. But then there was the British Museum Gala.

21:29Hettie Judah:I was going to say, I was going to say, and there's kind of a connection with the Louvre, you know, in the sense that that's a story about underfunded museum security. And this British Museum Gala, which is about trying to find new kinds of funding sources and finding its legs in that department. Jo, what was the gala? Just refresh our memories.

21:56Ben Luke:So the Bush Museum Ball is now going to be an annual event at the end of Freeze Week. And people pay£2 ,000 to go. And there's lots of famous people, a lot of famous artists. Josie Edmond and Grayson Perry were there. The first edition was successful in the sense that it raised£2.5 million. I think the pink dress code was a little tacky, but it certainly got a lot of press coverage. It was penalized by its own self-aggrandizement. In the run-up, it was touted in the press as UK's answer to the Met Gala. And it called itself a huge celebration of London as a cultural center, which I think is a sort of link to the defensive attitude of London right now, perhaps with the Paris competition.

22:42Ben Luke:Well, the Met Gala raised$31 million this year, so it's not quite there yet. And I do not think the outfits were quite as cool.

22:51Hettie Judah:You don't think the dresses lived up, the pink dresses? That runs in the opposite direction of what you were saying before, right? I mean, you know, you were saying London's kind of settling into conceding we're not, maybe not the glamour capital of Europe anymore.

23:07Ben Luke:Well, I think Fruise London can carry that reputation more easily. But obviously the British Museum is not the British Museum, if not loaded with controversy, which did follow the ball.

23:19Hettie Judah:Oh, yeah. I wanted to ask you about that.

23:20Ben Luke:Yeah, yeah. Plenty of controversy, of course. I was on Instagram and I was looking at pictures and the co-host, Isha Ambani, was sort of covered in emeralds. And the comments were like, this is so out of touch. And her father made billions in gas and oil. and obviously the British Museum has always been coming under fire for its association with BP sponsorship. So there's a climate activist at the gala who interrupted one of the speeches and I felt like it wasn't a good look. So then you had all these posh sort of male voices braying and being like, no, no, boo, boo. And I was like, this is giving Hunger Games.

23:59Ben Luke:Like it's amplifying exactly probably the impression that they don't want to give. some of the dinner was next to the Parthenon Marbles and obviously Greece wasn't happy they said it was covering Greek culture in the shade of Barbie Greece contests the British Museum's possession so that's like an ongoing thing relations are supposed to be better between Greece and British Museum as they're trying to find a solution but I was thinking if Greece took off with all of our turners and Gainsboroughs and then paraded around in fancy dress and punched them we probably wouldn't be very happy either So I don't think that's how it spins.

24:38Ben Luke:Speaking of dumb memes after the Lula heist, there was someone like, oh, weird, the British Museum's having an opening next week. Like, maybe the jewels will pop up there.

24:47Hettie Judah:I was going to ask about those emeralds. So before we move on to our final item, just bottom line from both of you, as having been reporters who are actually there, what's the mood in Europe?

25:01Ben Luke:I think that the market is showing tentative recovery and that is real. But I think that there is a very strong zealousness from dealers to be like, we're back. The art market is back. So that was my perception.

25:15Hettie Judah:Art market's always coming back. Exactly. Art market's always coming back.

25:17Ben Luke:And I think the excitement is genuine. I was on the phone with Mark Limpshire from Pace for another story last week. And he said, you know, like the recession seems to be over. And then he was like, it was like crawling over broken glass for the last year. And he's like, this is like everyone's in Paris. This is great. So, you know, I think that people are genuinely excited, but I think it remains to be seen from both Fries and Paris to what extent this sort of period of correction is actually turning into a recovery. I'm curious what you think, Jo. I completely agree. I was talking to Mark Klimtshire with our colleague Maggie at Fries London and he called Art Basel a debasel, as in a debacle.

25:56Ben Luke:Mark's sharing lots of opinions. That's great. But seem similarly much more encouraged. I agree. Maybe we won it too quickly, but there is certainly a resilience to doom and gloom narratives.

26:09Hettie Judah:Well, speaking of doom and gloom narratives or things that really bum our audience out, I'm about to talk about generative AI art, if you want to call it that. Like I said, I wrote an article about this Sora AI art app. I tried to invite you guys. You know, it's invite only, but it's not available in Europe. Is that right?

26:29Ben Luke:I was so disappointed. I couldn't. Ben, you made a Louvre heist. You heisted the Louvre on Sora. Oh, no. And I really wanted to join you in that endeavor, and I couldn't get on Sora yet.

26:40Hettie Judah:Kate, I'm about to share my screen with you, and you guys can see if you can see this. Can you see me?

26:50Ben Luke:We can. Yep.

26:52Hettie Judah:Okay.

26:55Ben Luke:is that bob ross

27:00Hettie Judah:okay well you can go ahead and describe to our listeners what you just saw

27:04Ben Luke:so ben has made multiple videos of himself heisting the louvre one of which is apparently with bob ross as a key accomplice um so it's incredible how realistic that actually looks and you guys made it clear and free you look like you're leaving the airport in some tropical place.

27:25Hettie Judah:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:26Ben Luke:Suitcases in hand.

27:27Hettie Judah:So what's your take? Do you think it's the death of video art? You know, if you were to tell me something to do right now, it would probably be generated by the end of this call. I know when I post stuff about this, there will be a segment of the art audience who will say, why do you even pay attention to this? This is like death-bringing technology. It's, you know, a complete slop built on intellectual property, all of which I agree with. I just happen to think that it's really important for the visual environment and how young people in particular, but not just young people, are going to understand how communication, images, art, and all this works.

28:03Hettie Judah:And I found myself very depressed by the experience of scrolling this app, but I didn't feel like I wasted my time. I felt like I was learning something about how the world would work. Do you have any thoughts about this?

28:14Ben Luke:Yeah. Well, I...

28:15Hettie Judah:Oh, yeah, Joe, you wrote a whole book about AI that I interviewed you about.

28:18Ben Luke:I do definitely have thoughts about this. I obviously support artists experimenting with AI, but I think most good AI artists would be skeptical of this. Last year, a bunch were recruited by OpenAI to test Sora, and they ended up writing an open letter titled Dear Corporate AI Overlords. So they felt like they were being used to artwash the whole thing. It's not just sort of as anti-tech contingent that are skeptical. they launched in february a series of artists made store videos and i just thought they were kind of fun to watch but they weren't good and surely artists want more control over the look and feel of their work they all had that telltale sheen and that kind of uncanniness and i just don't buy that artists wouldn't mind that kind of homogeneity of look i haven't been on the app but from what i understand it's sort of like a social networking platform right ben like you You can scroll.

29:12Ben Luke:It's sort of like TikTok. You can follow people.

29:13Hettie Judah:You make videos of your friends with your own face and with historical figures.

29:17Ben Luke:And so I guess in that sense, it's just more of this producer culture, you know, creative content producer culture that we've already seen before, which which hasn't up until now killed creativity, nor did any great technological advances of the past 150 years. So I'm kind of skeptical of that like sensationalist commentary. But at the same time, I do think that there is going to be an interesting transition for media art and video art in particular, because at least in the past few years, often you would see video artists sometimes. And if I'm being a bit skeptical, like sometimes just playing with a new tool with very like beautiful effects, but maybe the concept wasn't as good.

29:57Ben Luke:And I think now that there's this technology that makes it so easy for everyone to do that, the concept is going to have to be really good because the creation is totally frictionless now. And so I actually think in the same way that the internet didn't kill publishing by some arguments that made it even better in the book world, the same process might kind of happen. But there might be like a weird era to come in the medium term. Well, I saw this thing on Substack that is quite simple, but has resonated with me, which is the writing is thinking. And with ChatGPT, if people, especially young people, aren't writing, we all know how suddenly these ideas flow out of you.

30:35Ben Luke:You don't just have them and then you write. I think the idea that the nooks and crannies and in-depthness of process can be simplified, and that doesn't affect the output, can't be true.

30:47Hettie Judah:Well, for the record, I'm more worried about reading than writing, because people read with it too, and that's scary to me, because I do value the written word. I think when you play around with this app, and you will see when it comes to Europe, as it is coming, you know, its shark fin is in the water approaching, if you let it, is that it's really trying to de-skill being funny. I mean, you can do all kinds of controlled things and you can like storyboard 10 seconds, but everything that I showed you in that clip of me and Bob Ross doing the Louvre heist and then going to Art Basel or Art Basel, as my friend Bob called it, I didn't write any of that.

31:23Hettie Judah:I said the basic outlines of it and it does all the dialogue, it does all the settings. It riffs on your idea by adding in jokes and gags so it just can't help but affect what people find funny. It's just like eating a ton of Skittles, you know? I think it's going to turbocharge people's alienation from digital stuff. And so in that sense, I mean, I think there's plenty to be done on the digital front, although I think context, the context where things appears, is ever more important when, you know, you have this kind of stuff on your phone. But I do have some hope that it pushes people back towards process.

32:02Hettie Judah:That's where I go with my article about this for people who just don't want to read a doom and gloom article about AI and creativity. I do have a little bit of a positive spin on it, whereas I do feel like, and that's why I focused on Bob Ross, because even though he's kind of a kitsch figure and people love riffing on him, I think a lot of digital people liked watching Bob Ross as kind of therapy because you were watching a person paint. and the process of painting and seeing an image, how someone made it and conjured it as if by magic and that was really something you could do yourself, really kind of connected with people who were on screens all the time, actually.

32:46Hettie Judah:There's been kind of a Bob Ross revival online the last five years or so, decade really, that I've written about before. So should we leave it there on a hopeful note?

32:56Ben Luke:Yeah, I mean, I'm waiting for my Sora invite to be accepted. So I can't wait to play on it.

33:03Hettie Judah:I'll try and move it along. Well, thank you so much, Jo, for joining us on the podcast. I love having your voice here.

33:10Ben Luke:Thank you so much. It's been really fun.

33:12Hettie Judah:And Kate, I love to talk to you and see you.

33:15Ben Luke:Always a pleasure.

33:16Hettie Judah:That's it for this week's episode. If you like what we've heard, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Also, please take a moment to rate and review our show. It helps other listeners discover what we're doing. The Art Angle is produced by Sonia Manilou, with contributions from Kate Brown, Ben Davis, Caroline Goldstein, and Naomi Ray. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.