In short
Julio Torres and Martine Gutierrez discuss Marina, their new absurdist performance commissioned for the Whitney Biennial at Little Island. The piece follows a sea wench (Gutierrez) who finds a smartphone at the bottom of the ocean; it begins with a construction worker tossing a smartphone into the sea and ends with a “sea wench” possibly discovering the internet. They connect the work to Disney’s Little Mermaid, theme-park spectacle, and the idea that the phone is the real “main character” (like a ring of power). They also talk about collaboration, persona-building, and how humor/accessibility coexist with emotional truth.
Guests (backgrounds)
Julio Torres—writer/performer known for Saturday Night Live, TV shows Lost as Spookies and Phantasmas, and film Problemista (with Tilda Swinton). Martine Gutierrez—performance/photography/self-portraiture artist transforming identity through personas (e.g., Anti-Icon, Supremacy).
Key claims
Marina was developed from site visits and the water/architecture; it’s built “from the ground up” together; tragedy doesn’t define Marina; absurdity reveals emotional truth; they avoid deliberately obscure work; the phone’s presence drives the narrative.
Notable examples
Torres’s characters Elizabeth (Problemista) and Vanessa (Phantasmas); Gutierrez’s persona work (Aphrodite, Lady Godiva); references to Ariel’s grotto, theme parks, Gollum (Halloween), Nell (Jodie Foster), and Speed (the film they discuss).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Marina's Concept
0:45 to 2:19
Discussion about the performance artwork 'Marina' and its inspirations.
“their new performance commissioned by the Whitney Biennial.”
The Making of Marina
2:19 to 4:49
Julio and Martine share insights into the collaborative process of creating 'Marina'.
“Thank you for joining us on The Art Angle today.”
Theme Park Aesthetics and Challenges
4:49 to 6:40
Discussion around the set design and thematic elements of the performance.
“And we met and you're just faced with the sun and everyone there is kind of wandering to these little.”
First Impressions and Personal Insights
6:40 to 8:30
Julio and Martine reflect on their first meeting and shared experiences.
“I don't know what the answer is, but someone else should figure out.”
Character Development for Marina
8:30 to 13:20
Martine discusses the evolution of her character Marina and the challenges involved.
“Usually when people come to a beach, it's to be there on the beach.”
Surprising Elements of Marina
13:20 to 14:00
Martine shares insights on the unexpected aspects of playing Marina.
“Speaking about your work, Martin, you've inhabited so many personas throughout your visual art career.”
Exploring Tragedy and Identity
14:00 to 17:20
Learn how tragedy can shape and redefine identity through performance art.
“She shows you that tragedy does not define you But also she made her own tragedy a little bit What?”
Character Obsession in Art
17:20 to 21:00
Discover the allure of obsessive characters in storytelling and performance.
“So let's talk about your characters, Julio.”
The Role of Absurdity in Art
21:00 to 24:40
Unpack the relationship between absurdity and emotional truth in creative practices.
“Your visual artwork, Martine, is serious.”
Everyday Objects as Symbols
24:40 to 28:03
Examine how everyday objects serve as totems and symbols in art.
“Because I'm like, well, people are on their phones all day, every day.”
Show all 14 chapters
Exploring Self Portraiture and Artistic Inspirations
28:03 to 29:11
The guests discuss their artistic inspirations and personal connections to self-portraiture.
“Mmhmm Oh Oh my god That's why He's in the party pool He's the joint host in the party pool Who are you bringing as guests?”
Nell and the Power of Non-Verbal Expression
29:12 to 31:00
Discussion centers around the movie Nell and its impact on the concept of expression in art and film.
“And beyond Marina, is there one thing right now that you're obsessed with?”
The Camp Aesthetic in Cape Fear
31:01 to 33:14
The guests share their thoughts on the campy elements in the TV adaptation of Cape Fear.
“And that's really healthy for our friendship.”
Reflections on Directing and Learning
33:15 to 35:04
The conversation shifts to directing experiences and the learning process involved in creative collaboration.
“He would be the one to put the snakes on the plane for sure.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Martine Gutierrez:Also, your home is not like an octopus cave.
0:04Julio Torres:Oh, no.
0:05Martine Gutierrez:You know, they collect things. They hoard things.
0:10Julio Torres:No way. It's also like Ariel's grotto. Yes.
0:21Julio Torres:I'm Min Chen and this is The Art Angle, a podcast by Artnet News.
0:36Julio Torres:Julio Torres and Martin Gutierrez share a knack for building worlds and characters that operate on their own wonderful, absurdist logic. Throw them together, add some seawater, and you get Marina, their new performance commissioned by the Whitney Biennial. Marina opens with a construction worker tossing a smartphone into the ocean and ends with a sea wench, possibly discovering the internet. It's like The Little Mermaid, but filtered through the flights of imagination that Torres and Gutierrez have become known for. Torres first came to prominence as a writer for Saturday Night Live, but has since carved out one of the most distinctive creative paths around.
1:13Julio Torres:He created TV shows lost as spookies and phantasmas and made his feature debut with Problemista, starring Tilda Swinton. His comedy specials, My Favorite Shapes and Color Theories, are less stand-up than windows into the idiosyncratic way he sees the world. Gutierrez, meanwhile, has spent her career transforming identity into an expansive artistic practice. In her series like Anti-Icon and Supremacy, she uses performance, photography, and self-portraiture to inhabit a range of personas, from Aphrodite to Lady Godiva. It's work that challenges conventional ideas of femininity while celebrating reinvention and fluidity.
1:53Julio Torres:Marina won't be the first time that Torres and Gutierrez are collaborating. Gutierrez has appeared in both Lost as Spookies and Phantasmas, where she played the mysterious Vanessa. The pair also share a rapport that is immediate, playful, and unpredictable, as you hear in our conversation. Here they are, talking about Marina, first meetings, fictional personas, and for reasons that will soon become clear, the first half of Speed. Hello, Martine and Julio. Thank you for joining us on The Art Angle today. Hello, thank you for having us. So we're here to talk about Marina, which is your new performance commissioned by the Whitney Biennial.
2:31Julio Torres:And very loosely, Marina stars Martine as a sea wench whose life changes when she discovers a smartphone at the bottom of the ocean. And it's just a fantastic premise. And I'm very curious how it came about. I'm really sensing a hint of the Little Mermaid in here. Julio, maybe you can start us off. What was the spark for Marina?
2:53Martine Gutierrez:I mean, yes, there's definitely a big hint of the Little Mermaid in there. So the Whitney asked if we would like to do a performance of some kind at Little Island. And so we visited the Little Island stage or amphitheater. I don't know what the correct term for it is. and we really allowed the look and feel of it to inform the kinds of things that we were interested in doing and being so close to the water really got our gears turning and mermaids and ocean life are something that we talk about a lot and that just sort of snowballed into what it is now. I feel like there were a couple of brainstorming sessions.
3:39Julio Torres:Yeah. I think if you've been to Little Island before, which I had not. You had. You had seen something. It's very specific. Architecturally, it's limiting. It's constrictive.
3:58Martine Gutierrez:Well, there's a lot of, I would say it's more challenging than it is limiting.
4:03Julio Torres:See, that's why I needed you to chime in.
4:05Martine Gutierrez:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, obviously, it's outdoors. Which like looks gorgeous. Yeah. You know, that means that weather is an issue. And then the wind of it all. Yes. You have to really, really think of what you put on that set. Because it could just fly away. And so it started really feeling very like theme park-y. And I think that Marina is also a bit of a nod to theme park shows.
4:37Julio Torres:Yeah. She welcomes the tourists.
4:40Martine Gutierrez:And that's the other thing. It's like we're like little island tourists. Yeah. Yeah.
4:44Julio Torres:We walked around. We had a site visit and it was hot. And we met and you're just faced with the sun and everyone there is kind of wandering to these little. What are those streets? They're not streets. They're little roads, little paths. The little paths. That just kind of look out. Yeah. And from that, everyone has their camera. And it is kind of the spectacle of what, you know, what is the dinosaur or the Shamu or the, in this case, Marina that you're coming to see witness great mystery. And but it's not carny, which is too bad.
5:27Martine Gutierrez:No, no, it's not carny at all. Rarely ever do I feel like one of these like big New York projects ends up being exactly what the rendering wanted it to be. and this one feels like, oh, the people are moving in the way that the architect intended it. It feels like it's functioning true to its purpose. It's not like when they make a fountain and then they have to put police barricades around it. Yeah. People are jumping on it. They didn't think of how people were going to use it. It feels very...
5:58Julio Torres:Gattaca.
5:59Martine Gutierrez:And yes, the architecture is very Gattaca. Yeah.
6:03Julio Torres:It's the giver type of feeling. Yeah.
6:07Martine Gutierrez:And there's something about it that keeps people moving. It's sort of like the High Line. It's perfect like parent visiting from out of town architecture. Because you keep them moving and you know when it ends.
6:23Julio Torres:So the production is going to be somewhere between a theme park, but not Carnie.
6:28Martine Gutierrez:Yeah. Yeah, because Carnie gives, I feel like just the connotation is so... I would say there's not a hint of Carnie. Okay.
6:36Julio Torres:I feel like whimsy
6:37Martine Gutierrez:It's definitely whimsy But it's I really do Think that it's like A little Olympic Opening ceremony Oh my god Perfect
6:47Julio Torres:Meets kabuki Uh huh Uh huh
6:51Martine Gutierrez:Very gestural Uh huh
6:53Julio Torres:Okay Okay Intriguing And we've been talking about Little Mermaid on Ice Which I Have seen
7:01Martine Gutierrez:You have seen Yeah I've never seen that Does she have legs When she's skating? Yeah Or is she like on a rock?
7:06Julio Torres:No, it's actually, it's so weird. She has like a split. She has like a split fin.
7:11Martine Gutierrez:The tail is split into two parts?
7:13Julio Torres:Both legs are a tail.
7:16Martine Gutierrez:No. Both legs are a tail.
7:17Julio Torres:So she has like a forked tail. She has two tails.
7:20Martine Gutierrez:No.
7:21Julio Torres:And then four fins. No. Yeah, four fins, two tails.
7:24Martine Gutierrez:I don't know what the answer is, but someone else should figure out.
7:27Julio Torres:But the crazy thing is, she's not a mermaid that long. Like, oh, she's got legs. and then all of a sudden it's a little skirt.
7:35Martine Gutierrez:You know, it's very... Oh, and then it probably gets really boring because she's just like...
Read the full transcript
7:38Julio Torres:Yeah, and it's just her and Eric and you're like... Taking her back to the ocean. Well, you're just waiting for Ursula. Well, it's the same with like
7:45Martine Gutierrez:101 Dalmatians where like your memory sticks to Cruella de Vil and then you rewatch the movie and it's... And she's really not in it. And it's mostly the fucking dogs. Yeah. Hungry, barking. Yeah. It's just like, get me back to Cruella and her coats.
7:58Julio Torres:So is your Little Mermaid the Disney version? Is that the definitive Little Mermaid for you?
8:05Martine Gutierrez:Oh, the Little Mermaid being referenced in this is definitely the Disney version. Gotcha.
8:10Julio Torres:Yeah, the redhead.
8:12Martine Gutierrez:Yes.
8:13Julio Torres:Yeah, she even... Wait, sorry. I don't know. Spoilers? We didn't talk about spoilers. No spoilers. We don't know, no.
8:21Martine Gutierrez:There's a brief cameo.
8:23Julio Torres:Oh. There's a brief cameo. Anything you can tease about the cameo? I feel like we've already said too much. Yeah.
8:30Martine Gutierrez:There's a brief unlicensed cameo.
8:35Julio Torres:the retired version it was like an inside joke or something I feel like it was like a little oh wouldn't that be funny and then she made her way in she made her way okay I'm going to keep my eye out so both of you go way back and I want to talk about how you guys first met Martine what was your first impression of Julio I was just like god he's so sexy look at that hunk on the beach with that little backpack and he was always kind of lost i don't know there was something i don't think that was me he was always lost so he's kind of like wandering away just kind of like wandering away from where all the people were not sunbathing or anything like that.
9:26Julio Torres:It was more like, oh, hey, bye. Usually when people come to a beach, it's to be there on the beach. But I feel like you're always just kind of in passing. Maybe it wasn't you.
9:39Martine Gutierrez:I don't think that was me at all. Whoopsie. I think I'm thinking of someone else. No, I think it was more of a gradient rather than a definitive moment. Okay, okay. It was orbiting around each other for a while.
9:53Julio Torres:I was pretty skeptical.
9:54Martine Gutierrez:You were skeptical?
9:58Julio Torres:I'm just, you talked about it once. I don't know, what do you call me? Slippery or something?
10:04Martine Gutierrez:Slippery?
10:04Julio Torres:Maybe it wasn't that. It was something...
10:07Martine Gutierrez:Elusive?
10:08Julio Torres:There was like wiggle room to get away. It was like in alluding to a squid or something.
10:12Martine Gutierrez:Oh, you are a little like an octopus for sure.
10:15Julio Torres:Oh.
10:16Martine Gutierrez:There you go. Yeah. Because they can like...
10:19Julio Torres:Is that what intrigued you about Martine? Or is it something else?
10:23Martine Gutierrez:It was not the elusiveness, but it's how alluring and funny she is. Like an octopus.
10:30Julio Torres:Smart.
10:30Martine Gutierrez:Also, your home is not like an octopus cave.
10:33Julio Torres:Oh, no.
10:35Martine Gutierrez:You know, they collect things.
10:37Julio Torres:They hoard things. No way. It's also like Ariel's grotto.
10:45Martine Gutierrez:Yes. Yes. For sure. Yes. Ariel's grotto. Grotto. Now that's the name for a restaurant. Yeah.
10:55Julio Torres:Your nightclub?
10:56Martine Gutierrez:My nightclub. Wait, that's a fabulous concert for a nightclub.
11:02Julio Torres:Ariel's Grotto.
11:03Martine Gutierrez:It's a hole. It's like a... It's a hole. Yeah, there's a skylight. We need a rock.
11:07Julio Torres:We need a rock as a door. Yeah.
11:10Martine Gutierrez:And a bunch of junk.
11:12Julio Torres:Yeah, like a boulder. Yeah. Just shelves. The whole thing is just like shelves.
11:17Martine Gutierrez:Yeah. Wall mounted.
11:19Julio Torres:And I know you've both worked together before, but specifically on Marina, did you discover something new about the other's creative process?
11:28Martine Gutierrez:That's a good question. Have I discovered something new? I would say that this is the first thing that we built together from the ground up.
11:39Julio Torres:Yeah. They got legs.
11:41Martine Gutierrez:Right. I don't know. It felt very natural. It didn't feel like uncharted territory or that there was a learning curve. But you don't collaborate a lot in your work.
11:51Julio Torres:But you've pushed me out of that comfort zone. There's very few friends that it's just, I guess it's kind of snowballed into this where there's a language now to pull from.
12:04Martine Gutierrez:Because I feel like your other work is very like you go off by yourself and then you fully construct something and then incorporate people when you maybe like physically need something made.
12:16Julio Torres:Mm-hmm.
12:17Martine Gutierrez:And then you show it. I feel like I come from a more like, there's a little team world.
12:24Julio Torres:Yeah.
12:25Martine Gutierrez:Because film and TV, they have to be collaborative.
12:28Julio Torres:Yeah, and they have to be on these schedules. They have to be on these schedules.
12:33Martine Gutierrez:Schedules, yes.
12:34Julio Torres:Like the way you make things, there's deadlines.
12:37Martine Gutierrez:There's deadlines. And then there's like, yeah, you have to show up at a certain time.
12:41Julio Torres:Yeah, and there's all this press involved. You know, there's like, it's so funny. I feel like art is so, you can be completely alone and in complete isolation and then you bring it out and it goes on the little pedestal. It goes up on that white wall and then you just, you walk away.
12:57Martine Gutierrez:Yeah. And they never ask you to wake up early. Not really. Because why would they? Well, they're like. They're not like, okay, you got to wake up early to go to the painting factory.
13:05Julio Torres:The deadline is you got to ship it.
13:07Martine Gutierrez:You got to ship. Have you shipped it? You got to ship it, girl. They're going to close.
13:11Julio Torres:They're like, it's late. They're like, it's late. We have to expedite shipping. Yeah. Which is not very nice, but it has happened. Or the writing, you know, is there writing with this? Is there any kind of quote? Oh, yeah. Speaking about your work, Martin, you've inhabited so many personas throughout your visual art career. You know, works like Indigenous Woman, anti-icon, supremacy. What went into the work of creating the character of Marina? Was there something that surprised you about her after you started spending time with her? I am surprised by the affinity that I have for her I don't really look at myself as a tragic figure
13:52Martine Gutierrez:No
13:53Julio Torres:But Marina is
13:54Martine Gutierrez:Marina goes through tragedy But I don't think she's a tragic figure
13:58Julio Torres:Right, that's true She shows you what you can do after She shows you that tragedy does not define you
14:07Martine Gutierrez:But also she made her own tragedy a little bit What? I'd say there were some bad choices in there
14:13Julio Torres:Okay You know, did Marina feel like an extension of your practice in a way? Or did she ask something different from you as a performer? Well, she definitely asked something different and that's what's exciting. I think that's why this even happened. It's like, oh, for both of us. Oh, I've never done that, you know?
14:31Martine Gutierrez:You know what I'm realizing was also like a seed into Marina was you being Gollum for Halloween.
14:40Martine Gutierrez:you being golem for halloween was like an image that was burned in my mind and then it was like well maybe we'd do something where you're something like that
14:48Julio Torres:something was unleashed and it was so last minute it almost was a you know a phone-in halloween it was a fantastic it was like a nude bodysuit with just some contouring and then like a bald
15:01Martine Gutierrez:cap with some wig like some cut off wig but it really worked you have blue contacts right i had
15:08Julio Torres:these crazy blue contacts from yeah i just rewatched lord of the rings and golem is actually
15:14Martine Gutierrez:quite gorgeous oh big eyes yeah huge big eyes huge eyes golem is very high fashion yeah emaciated yeah size dependent addict addict sample size sample size loves jewelry and very expressive needy very expressive for sure and very like what about me yeah well what about me and and what is that
15:49Julio Torres:He's a star. Star qualities, but bipolar.
15:55Martine Gutierrez:Oh, needs to be medicated.
15:58Julio Torres:Yeah, like so happy, so angry.
16:02Martine Gutierrez:Oh my God. Yeah, the mood swings are crazy.
16:05Julio Torres:Yeah, and that was really exciting.
16:07Martine Gutierrez:Are they making a Gollum prequel? Am I making that up? Are you making it?
16:12Julio Torres:Did they already make one? That's The Hobbit, right? No, that's The Hobbit. No, yes.
16:16Martine Gutierrez:but I think there's someone is making a Gollum like prequel like how she got there like he's in high school right yeah yeah the audition that went wrong he's in high school and he's like really hot full head of hair yeah full head of hair it's a guy from heated rivalry oh he's a jock yeah
16:40Julio Torres:before the pills before the pills the eating disorder
16:44Martine Gutierrez:before Hollywood
16:44Julio Torres:oh god yeah no Gollum was really freeing and I felt gorgeous I felt gorgeous yeah but it was truly like a creature well that is and that is what Marina is
16:58Martine Gutierrez:she is both hideous and gorgeous hmm
17:02Julio Torres:oh that's perfect that's perfect a bit of Little Mermaid but also Gollum
17:07Martine Gutierrez:Oh, yeah. No, Marina's not a classic beautiful mermaid. No, she's a creature.
17:14Julio Torres:Okay. Interesting. Creature.
17:20Martine Gutierrez:Yeah.
17:21Julio Torres:So let's talk about your characters, Julio. Two of your characters that I absolutely love are Elizabeth in Problemista, who is an art critic who's consumed with preserving her late husband's artistic legacy. and the other one is Vanessa in Phantasmas played by Martine, a performance artist whose performance has taken over her life. They're a little bit obsessive. They're pursuing something with great conviction, but they're never like the butt of the joke. And is there something about that kind of character that keeps drawing you in?
17:53Martine Gutierrez:I love people who are very obsessed with one thing to the point of it pushing them into solitude, I think. I'm very very very Into people who can't let go Of this one Thing And I actually know I think that Marina is like that She becomes myopically Obsessed with this one thing She's very unlike those Two characters I would say she's maybe Closer to Tilda in Problemista Than she is To you in Fantasmas no there's no Vanessa in her there's absolutely no Vanessa in her but yeah no I do love people who like become really really really obsessed with this one thing and like make things a little bit more difficult for themselves because of that
19:00Julio Torres:I'm a little bit obsessed with Vanessa I think she's such an enigma. She's comical, but she's also like so surprisingly profound. Her life and her performance are almost like impossible to separate. And I'm curious, Martine, what was it like, you know, inhabiting someone like that? It's kind of like caught between performance and reality. I love her. She's such an icon. Is this an allegation? No. Because there might be some overlap there. I loved getting into Vanessa I really did I felt so beautiful and I felt so in control and I think playing her and you writing her really showed me that I also am her she's so statuesque
19:47Martine Gutierrez:those suits were tight those suits, yeah
19:49Julio Torres:I barely fit I barely fit in, what was it? it was like Archivo Mugler and I would sit down I sat down once and the button popped off and we had to sew it back on. Yeah, she was cinched. But I do, I felt like just so self-aware. That was kind of getting into Vanessa was just being completely self-aware. And I realized how I am just not that. Like in daily life, how I'm still like, whoopsie, whoopsie. kind of like kind of klutz or saying the wrong thing or whatever she's just is so practice yeah she's on she is on and i do think there's something to really learn from that but also like a lot of people really do live that way yeah you know like a lot of people really do like
20:44Martine Gutierrez:choreograph every movement and like there's not a hair out of place and not calculating necessarily in a malicious way but very extremely aware yeah meticulous meticulous yeah and you kind
20:58Julio Torres:of do need to do that in a professional world you kind of have to yeah this idea of like authenticity whatever that is that's like a version of something that we can slip into around certain people like when we're with our families when with our friends when we're with it's always some other version that's where people move I mean some people stay home in their hometown forever but part of the I feel it when I go home and I like enter the I'm all of a sudden I am still the child version of me in my family like there's no especially if you've grown into something else like a hermit crab you change shells and you know it is really jarring to be like this version isn't me and why is she here still?
21:48Julio Torres:I always want to talk about humor. Your visual artwork, Martine, is serious. You know, it upends beauty constructs and it critiques femininity. But I always sense like a playfulness like running through it. Do you see play or, you know, even humor having a role in your practice? No. No? No humor. All serious all the way? Snip, snip, snip. Get that out of here. I'm so serious about art. It's criminal. I'm imagine. I mean, I think that's what is going to change. It just is changing because we're in it and we're so silly. But the way it really has been is so self-serious. I think pre-internet, the stakes were so real.
22:34Julio Torres:You know, it really was life or death. And you just can't, you can't make work like that anymore. So.
22:43Martine Gutierrez:What do you mean you can't make work like that anymore? Like, why do you think that is?
22:46Julio Torres:I don't know. Why do you think that is?
22:48Martine Gutierrez:Like why you can't make work that's like too serious or like divorced of humor?
22:54Julio Torres:Not divorced of humor. Like the history of what art has been. Well, there used to be just religion.
23:01Martine Gutierrez:and just kind of other iterations of religion. Oh, like the idea that art is serious. A museum is serious. A gallery is serious.
23:08Julio Torres:These are, yeah, it's like either academia or it's somehow connected to a lineage of history. And we have to take that seriously. Well, I think something that we both do organically
23:19Martine Gutierrez:is that there's an accessibility to our work. I never want to deliberately make out something that feels intellectually exclusive or alienating or like, I mean, we're doing something that's sort of like an ode to theme park shows. It's like -
23:37Julio Torres:Because we love them.
23:38Martine Gutierrez:Well, because, you know, it's like, we never want to be like deliberately obscure. We never want to be like, oh, most people are not going to get this. They were constantly referencing like things that are very popular.
23:51Julio Torres:I mean, I like things that are very popular. That's what's so funny. I feel like the things I like are not highbrow things. It's like junk food. I'm so junk food. I love junk food. That's high art.
24:06Martine Gutierrez:But I think like unpacking why we like junk food is a form of high art. But ignoring that there is junk food is sort of like navel-gacy and myopic. Okay. Like I feel like for the longest time TV and film was so scared of incorporating the internet into the lives of their characters in any way. Because it was like, oh, that's so uncinematic. It's like people shouldn't be texting. That's so uncinematic. And it's like, well, no, it sort of behooves us to find a way of making that cinematic. Which is why I'm so obsessed with like people being on their phones. You are. Because I'm like, well, people are on their phones all day, every day.
24:47Martine Gutierrez:and just because this is a play doesn't mean that we can ignore that i actually think the
24:52Julio Torres:main character is the phone is the phone it's not actually marina it's it's the phone it's the phone
25:01Martine Gutierrez:yeah it's in every scene and we gave it a voice phone talks it begins with the phone it begins
25:08Julio Torres:with the phone it's very like that solar system video that's trying to speak about the big bang the beginning of the universe and we're like
25:16Martine Gutierrez:the phone.
25:19Julio Torres:So does the phone have a character arc?
25:21Martine Gutierrez:No, the phone is more akin to the ring.
25:25Julio Torres:The ring of power. The ring of power. I see. One phone to rule them all.
25:31Martine Gutierrez:The mythology of the ring of power was very confusing to me. Really? It's like, oh, he made seven things and some of them are in the ring and some of the other things are scattered, but the ring is that it was like oh you need to streamline this it's like what it's like and then there's the fellowship which is like other people and just like i was a lot a lot to keep track of
25:56Julio Torres:there were many books yeah i mean you're really good at trimming the fat i will say
26:03Martine Gutierrez:this play really moves it really moves it's 45 minutes if you yeah it is it is friendly get them in and out. People have things to do. People have to get back to their phone.
26:18Julio Torres:Julio, I noticed that you have a thing for objects. Everyday objects, almost. Yeah. And I love
26:25Martine Gutierrez:garbage and that is in full celebration here. That is in full, full celebration here.
26:31Julio Torres:Is there something about everyday objects that fascinate you? I think they're like totems.
26:37Martine Gutierrez:They're full of meaning and symbolism, which is sort of like what a toy is it's an object that you imbue with meaning so i don't know i feel like in that way i'm like always playing and yeah there's a lot of important objects here well there's one important
26:51Julio Torres:object the phone yeah i was trying to think of another one but also it's very fairy tale to
26:58Martine Gutierrez:imbue an object the amulet the lamp the rose the you know spindle the mirror the scroll the mirror I love all of those
27:08Julio Torres:yeah and the phone really is that for us have you figured out how to make the phone cinematic or how to like represent it in a play
27:18Martine Gutierrez:I think lighting is going to be her
27:20Julio Torres:okay and we haven't gotten there yet
27:24Martine Gutierrez:we have full faith in Yuki
27:27Julio Torres:she's going to tear
27:28Martine Gutierrez:yeah she's going to absolutely tear
27:31Julio Torres:you know like one thing I really appreciate about both your practices is that however strange funny they are there's always like a generosity and warmth to your characters is emotional truth something like you have to establish first before you get to like
27:47Martine Gutierrez:the absurdity or does absurdity come first no i think for me absurdity is a way of showing an emotional truth it's never like that i have like an image in mind and then i just work my way backwards and see what the truth of that is in your self portraiture it feels like you like all of them you know what i mean like you like the people that you're inhabiting
28:16Julio Torres:like the versions of yourself yeah they're people i want to be yeah yeah so far
28:25Martine Gutierrez:i'm gonna run out i'm gonna run out soon yeah and i'll have to do all the terrible ones The Statue of Liberty Marilyn Frida
28:36Julio Torres:Oh my god Frida's too close
28:39Martine Gutierrez:Yeah Frida's too close
28:40Julio Torres:We're in a show together right now
28:41Martine Gutierrez:You did Dol Vinci
28:42Julio Torres:I did Dol Vinci
28:43Martine Gutierrez:Leonardo Dol Vinci Yeah
28:47Julio Torres:We have the same birthday What you do? Mmhmm You be in Leonardo da Vinci? Mmhmm Oh Oh my god That's why
28:55Martine Gutierrez:He's in the party pool
28:58Julio Torres:He's the joint host in the party pool Who are you bringing as guests? Leonardo.
29:03Martine Gutierrez:Leonardo. They're like, which one? Wow. Aries. Leonardo with an Aries.
29:09Julio Torres:I guess so.
29:10Martine Gutierrez:Yeah.
29:12Julio Torres:And you know, I'm always interested in what artists are consuming while they're making work. And beyond Marina, is there one thing right now that you're obsessed with? It could be an artist, a film, a book, song, even an object. Don't say phone.
29:27Martine Gutierrez:Don't say phone. Okay, you were talking about I might do it tonight But you were talking about the movie Nell
29:35Julio Torres:You're going to do it tonight?
29:36Martine Gutierrez:I think so Oh, no, you want to watch it with me?
29:38Julio Torres:Yeah, but you could do it on your own Jodie Foster? Yes, thank you I love that movie Oh my god
29:44Martine Gutierrez:I had never heard of it
29:45Julio Torres:Okay, embarrassingly, I shared that She was a huge inspiration for this idea of a character Who gets to just emote Because it's not about language Or it is about language but her language skills are so mystified because no one can understand her. She gets to be so expressive in her body language. And I just was like, what a dream. What a dream as an actress. You know, no lines to learn.
30:13Martine Gutierrez:She doesn't have lines. Well. So Nell is a little poor things, maybe. Emma Stone and poor things. But it's contemporary, right?
30:24Julio Torres:Yes. it's a bit more contemporary than poor things way more feral than poor things yeah not a stylized
30:33Martine Gutierrez:it's it's more uh it's not glamorous no and i don't remember but i don't think nell ever becomes
30:39Julio Torres:verbal like she never actually does she i can't remember i can't remember either i brought it up and said remember and julio was like i've never seen that you never shared that with me and then And I felt crazy. Because maybe I didn't.
30:55Martine Gutierrez:We've never spoken about it until yesterday.
30:58Julio Torres:It proves to me that I can have secrets from you.
31:00Martine Gutierrez:Yeah.
31:01Julio Torres:And that's really healthy for our friendship.
31:03Martine Gutierrez:What else have I been consuming? I saw the Cape Fear TV adaptation. Have you seen it? Javier Bardem is obviously exquisite in it. There's so many great performances in it. I can't wait. Javier Bardem is perfect. It's absolutely, absolutely perfect. And the actress who plays his daughter, I don't know her name. I'll look her up. But she's so good. The actress who plays Nevaeh.
31:35Julio Torres:Yeah. She's great.
31:37Martine Gutierrez:And it's like camp. It's like so not afraid to be camp. Oh, camp is bad.
31:41Julio Torres:It's super camp. Yeah. Melodramatic. So dramatic. So melodramatic. So extravagant. I love it. Yeah. Yeah
31:49Martine Gutierrez:What are you watching?
31:51Julio Torres:I'm gonna watch that Cause I haven't Yeah Last night I got home And I started Speed Speed
31:58Martine Gutierrez:Bus or yacht
31:59Julio Torres:The bus
32:00Martine Gutierrez:The first one The first one
32:02Julio Torres:Yeah I started speed Cause I ordered dinner
32:05Martine Gutierrez:To not finish speed Is kinda crazy Crazy No it was A film that's all about momentum All about it's climax
32:15Julio Torres:It was a chaotic choice You're like
32:17Martine Gutierrez:This feels like a good time to pause.
32:23Julio Torres:I love action. I love action movies. Previously on Speed. There's a whole first section that sets the premise of what the movie is fully about with the elevator scene. And I got through that.
32:39Martine Gutierrez:Are there a foreshadowing with an elevator that won't stop?
32:42Julio Torres:There's a bomb in an elevator shaft. What? That's the beginning of Speed. Yeah, it's not even about the bus. It's not even about the bus. And then that guy who was the T-word, he somehow survives. Don't say it.
32:58Martine Gutierrez:Don't say it like that.
33:00Julio Torres:And he survives miraculously and then is like so upset that his first plan to kill everyone didn't work that he sets up another one. And that's the bus.
33:09Martine Gutierrez:And is the second movie, which is on a boat, is that also him?
33:14Julio Torres:I...
33:14Martine Gutierrez:And is he, did he put the snakes on the plane? He would be the one to put the snakes on the plane for sure. I've never seen that.
33:22Julio Torres:He goes through great lengths to bring other people trauma.
33:26Martine Gutierrez:Is he like Russian or something?
33:28Julio Torres:No, he's American. Oh. But he is a man. Oh.
33:31Martine Gutierrez:What's his motivation? Why is he doing this?
33:34Julio Torres:I don't know. I didn't finish. Oh, you didn't finish. But my food came. I ate it and I was like, oh. We're done for today. I can't do this. I can't do this.
33:41Martine Gutierrez:I have rehearsed tomorrow.
33:42Julio Torres:What a mistake this was. Yeah. We have a rehearsal in the morning.
33:46Martine Gutierrez:Crack of dawn, 10 a.m.
33:49Julio Torres:For me, that is. I mean, same. So you're currently obsessed with the first half of Speed. No, no. Wait. No, that's just what I watched. Okay. I'm obsessed with Julio. Oh. Oh. I am.
34:06Martine Gutierrez:You said it with such a knowing smile. You're like, oh, they're going to eat this up.
34:11Julio Torres:But it's true. It's true because Why else would we be still working together? Like you said, I'm such a little loner That it does make you wonder You know, how is this project happening Again? Again? Like we just finished the TV show Yeah This is on the heels of that Coming to my world The Whitney The Whitney Careful Careful
34:39Martine Gutierrez:Don't touch the art Oh yeah Shh Security is over there We just heard the great news that they're going to house the props They don't have to go to our apartments
34:49Julio Torres:Oh, they're huge So this is huge Whitney T here
34:55Martine Gutierrez:Yes, yeah, they have storage They have storage Wow, no way
35:01Julio Torres:Yeah Okay, last question Marina Is changed by contact with another world And I wonder if your contact with Marina's world has changed you in any way.
35:15Martine Gutierrez:I mean, it's my first time directing a staged thing. I don't know if this is a play. Is it a play?
35:25Julio Torres:Yeah, we've had trouble putting it in a box. It's so big. Don't put it in a box.
35:29Martine Gutierrez:And yet, only 45 minutes. So that is exciting. Sure. But it's also like I have to keep reminding myself that I won't have full control of it day of there's no edit just such an odd it's like yeah no shit i also almost said action the other day which i'm like oh is this allowed why can't i say you can yeah you can yeah and you will especially think when we get there yeah i'm gonna need a little megaphone which is exciting
36:01Julio Torres:very exciting that's so cool a little ringmaster yeah it's a megaphone and a bubble gun
36:10Martine Gutierrez:yeah oh and a laser pointer
36:14Julio Torres:oh yeah you do need that
36:15Martine Gutierrez:so I don't know what I've learned but I know that I'm learning great and that's huge
36:23Julio Torres:Martin are you learning
36:26Martine Gutierrez:your lines
36:30Julio Torres:I'm learning my I have yeah I'm learning my lines I think that's really good for me
36:40Martine Gutierrez:yeah that'll be great
36:42Julio Torres:wonderful Martina and Julio thank you for speaking with me today thank you thank you The Art Angle is produced by Sonia Manalili with contributions from Ben Davis and Caroline Goldstein thank you for listening and see you next week
37:05Thank you.
From the publisher
Julio Torres and Martine Gutierrez share a knack for building worlds and characters that operate on their own wonderful, absurdist logic. Throw them together, add some sea water, and you get Marina, their new performance commissioned by the Whitney Biennial.
Marina begins with a construction worker tossing a smartphone into the ocean and ends with a sea wench possibly discovering the internet. It’s like the Little Mermaid, but filtered through the flights of imagination that Torres and Gutierrez have become known for.
Torres first came to prominence as a writer for Saturday Night Live, but has since carved out one of the most distinctive creative paths around. He created the TV shows Los Espookys and Fantasmas, and made his feature debut with Problemista, starring Tilda Swinton. His comedy specials, My Favorite Shapes and Color Theories, are less stand-up than windows into the idiosyncratic way he sees the world.
Gutierrez, meanwhile, has spent her career transforming identity into an expansive artistic practice. In her series like ANTI-ICON and Supremacy, she uses performance, photography, and self-portraiture to inhabit a range of personas—from Aphrodite to Lady Godiva. It is work that challenges conventional ideas of femininity while celebrating reinvention and fluidity.
Marina won’t be the first time that Torres and Gutierrez are collaborating. Gutierrez has appeared in both Los Espookys and Fantasmas, where she played the mysterious Vanesja. The pair also share a rapport that is immediate, playful, and unpredictable, as you’ll hear in our conversation.
Here they are, talking about Marina, first meetings, fictional personas, and for reasons that will soon become clear, the first half of Speed.
