Billionaire Makeup Artist Spills the Kardashians' Beauty Secrets & How Celebs get Perfect Faces

19:32Sophia:okay i want to go back to north from coming do they show up in person or do they call you how

19:37Phoebe:does that happen you know comes knocking i had a brow kit i will never forget uh they were not that excited you know this was 2000 too new eyebrow wasn't something that somebody thought that is the best thing ever. I explained that just having the eyebrow products there is not enough because the clients didn't know how to use a powder or what to use. So I had a technique that I needed education. So I suggested we should have brow studios there, that esthetician would be trained by me and they could teach the client and sell the products. So they didn't want that because they said we are a retail company.

20:19Phoebe:We are not a service company, which I understood that. So I took the, I saw in the, there were 14 people at the table and was one lady, very pretty, but very light eyebrows. Like almost you couldn't see her eyebrows. So I'll ask permission if I could show them a transformation. So I took the stencil, I filled in with little powder and show them the before and after one eyebrow done, one not. And it was like such a big deal and impressive that they agreed to open the Brow Studios.

20:55Anastasia Soare:It sounds like you're a master of the live demo. And I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the products you've made, the eyebrows, all of it. And kind of our audience wants beauty tips. I mean, you are the mastermind of all of this. And so what is the best advice that you do have for people who they're starting out, they don't know what to do with their eyebrows? Like, what kind of advice do you give to them?

21:19Phoebe:I think we all are visual. So I could tell you right now what to do. But when you see a video, it's a lot easier for you to know that, oh, this is easy. I could do it. Or at least I could practice. Another advice I could give, if you try a new product, don't use it right before you have to go out or to a party. because you need to understand how much pressure you put, how much payoff the product has. So take 15 minutes in your day off or one year free time and practice this product and you will see how to use it, how much pressure you have to put. And beauty, I mean, skincare, of course, you have to, I mean, no sodas.

22:06Phoebe:If you want to have a beautiful skin, drink a lot of water, eat healthy, and use a good skincare regime and sunblock as well. And exercise. I mean, it's crucial. Easy stuff, no. Easy stuff, yes.

22:21Sophia:And I have to ask, we've gone through so many crazy brow trends throughout the year.

22:25Phoebe:What are your thoughts on the wavy brows where people used to have straight and then they would... But that, remember, those were right after COVID when And people were so bored and they needed to create content. I mean, will you ever go with the wavy eyebrows? No, no.

22:41Sophia:If you said it, I might have to. No, no.

22:45Phoebe:I think people wanted to express their artistic ability and talents. And this is why they did that. But that was only for Instagram.

22:57Sophia:What about the colored eyebrows where people would be like blue or purple?

23:00Phoebe:I mean, you have to have that edge. Like my daughter loves bleach eyebrows, but my daughter wants that edgy look. So if you like edgy look, why not? It's you could reverse always. As long as you don't over tweeze eyebrows, colors, products, you could do whatever you want because you could remove it.

23:21Anastasia Soare:And then for your guys' products, how did you decide to first start to shift away from just eyebrows and start to add in additional items?

23:29Phoebe:So my whole theory was based on golden ratio with eyebrows. But again, like in art school, you start doing eyebrows and then you create contouring because this is how you start shading to create a face. Yes, you use the pencil and the pressure on the pencil, you use a darker color, more pressure to create depth and lighter color to create volume. Yes. So I was explaining this to my daughter and my team. And I said, like, contouring after eyebrow, contouring is the most important thing when you do makeup like an art. And she created my daughter in 2014, created this kit with three contour colors and three highlighter colors.

24:19Phoebe:and we put it on our, we sold it on Instagram and it sold out in like an hour. Then Sephora wanted to sell, they put it on their website and again, sold out immediately. And then the entire concept, because I always ask my daughter and my entire team, well, do you know why we use makeup? And again, like, well, I saw my mother or this makeup artist did. Well, but I wanted everyone to understand what we use makeup. We use makeup to create, and everybody is different. You do not use them. I cannot use the makeup the way you use your makeup because our bone structure is different. So we need to use makeup to create the perfect balance and proportion without a face.

25:14Phoebe:So you use an illusion of perfect. So if I want to contour my face, I use little darker colors here and lighter here, and that will create a better contour of my face. So that's why we created eyeshadow. That's why we created contour kits and then blush and everything else. So it was a natural transition that education for us was very important, and we created products that will create the ability of every client to create the perfect balance and proportion with their face. I don't know if you guys remember, but we had a contour kit and a cream contour kit. A cream contour kit that we created for the drug race, RuPaul drug race.

26:06Phoebe:And at the beginning, people used so much contouring and so much highlighter that was so funny to look and see. But then lately, then they realized they need to blend better and less is more. And, you know, everybody learned. But it was a stage, you know, that was used in the Instagram era.

26:36Sophia:I remember with my little braces, like being in my bathroom with a YouTube tutorial playing on my laptop. And then I would stand with the contour stick. And, you know, I wouldn't use too much because I didn't want to waste it. And I would save up to get another one. And I would come down to dinner. My mom was like, oh, goodness. Like painted, literally painted so badly.

26:56Phoebe:But I was practicing and learning. Absolutely. It was the best way to learn what you end up to become a master. And remember, when I came in Hollywood in the early 90s, people used to get makeup if they went to an event, a special occasion or an award season or award Oscar or Golden Globe. And they used to go to department stores, very few makeup artists, freelancers. Now, not only there are millions of freelancers, you could go to department stores and you could get your makeup, but now everybody learned how to do their own makeup. I think it's so empowering to learn how to do your own makeup.

27:45Phoebe:It's beautiful. I'm so excited for everyone because you feel like right now I could bring the best version of myself. Even when I go grocery shopping, still you need to do a little bit.

27:58Anastasia Soare:No, I completely agree. I think it's so funny because I remember when I was young and I wanted to learn how to do my makeup and my mom was like, you're beautiful the way you are.

28:05Sophia:And I was like, yeah, but I also want to do my makeup. Yes, of course.

28:10Anastasia Soare:And I am curious also, I completely agree with Phoebe. I remember watching YouTube tutorials. I saw all the people who were using your products. I learned how to do my makeup from them. But also I definitely made a ton of mistakes. So I'm curious, what are the biggest beauty mistakes you still see?

28:27Phoebe:um i think people start learning so much how to perfect the blend because blending is the most important thing um i mean i remember the blocky eyebrows with the deep brow like that was i used to tell my daughter like claudia this is too much like mom this is what they like don't worry they will figure out and then yes give the people what they want yeah um but um i mean right now i think People are doing an amazing job because everybody practiced. So remember, we started in 2012. Let's say we'd make up 214. We have a lot of time, no? Now it's 26. It's a lot of time that allowed everyone to learn how to do their makeup beautifully.

29:17Anastasia Soare:What were trends that you saw come and go and what did you think about that?

29:21Phoebe:So the blocky eyebrows, the heavy, heavy contouring, the highlighter. Sometimes the highlighter was all the way to the nose. And here were a lot, not enough blending. I think that was another mistake. But I think everybody learned. Everybody learned how to do it. Thoughts on laminated brows? Yes. Then the laminated brows. It was like the brows was like comb on.

29:52Sophia:Yeah. I need to see you in a meeting when you saw those photos. Oh, yes.

29:56Phoebe:It's true.

29:57Sophia:If you had to pick one product that's a must-have, what would it be?

30:01Phoebe:It's like picking your favorite child. I think Brow Wiz would be my favorite. Actually, it's easy to use.

30:08Anastasia Soare:And what's the simplest, best routine someone can have for their makeup if they only have five minutes?

30:13Phoebe:For eyebrows, you mean, or everything? Just everything. Well, I think the most important are eyebrows and lips, in my opinion. Don't you think? So what do you do with your eyebrows and lips? Well, you fill in with the brow wiz very quickly. And then I outline my lips and use lip velvet and lip gloss. And I'm ready to go. What about mascara? Yeah, that's true. But you said only five minutes and you can't make it.

30:39Anastasia Soare:OK, that makes sense. Yeah. Very quick mascara. I think it's important.

30:42Phoebe:You know, you close your eyes 10 ,000 times a day in your mouth. So when somebody looks at you, looks around the eyes and around the mouth. You know that.

30:54Anastasia Soare:I did not know that. Yeah.

30:55Phoebe:So if you have this area, arrange it like in a good spot and the lips, I think you're good.

31:05Anastasia Soare:And what did you do when your clients would come to you and they had done something crazy with their makeup or their brows? Like, do you ever tell people that doesn't look good?

31:14Phoebe:No, I will tell them, look, this is what you like, but can I show you what I think will look better? And it's up to you. You will decide. Because I think at the end of the day, you let the client figure out. She will understand. The moment she will see, she will understand. I mean, I used to have so many clients. Like, for instance, I used to have dancers from Las Vegas in the early 2000s that all they wanted Pamela Anderson eyebrows. Everyone, I mean, Pamela was their idol. And I refused to do thin eyebrows because once you tweeze eyebrows, you could bleach, you could color darker, you could do whatever.

31:56Phoebe:But once you tweeze or wax, thin eyebrows, they don't grow back. Yeah. So I refused to do that. And I used to say, well, let me explain. Let me draw a better eyebrow, a little thicker. And you will see, grow your eyebrow right now. Because if you keep doing this, they will not grow back. So slowly, I will not do immediately a thick, but at least one row of eyebrows. And this is how they will. And I mean, years later, they will come like, you remember when I had pencil thin eyebrows and you made me grow? Thank God they grew back.

32:32Sophia:And I'm curious for you, at first, were you like, OK, the salon is really taking off. I'm going to expand a giant chain of salons. Or when did you realize like, wow, OK, it's really the product line here that is going to scale massively?

32:45Phoebe:The reason why the salon was more difficult is because the training, I wanted the quality of the service to be excellent. So I used to work five days in the salon, and the two days that I was off, I used to travel around the country to train the esthetician in Nordstrom's. So I literally worked seven days a week, like nonstop, and it wasn't easy to keep the quality perfect.

33:21Anastasia Soare:i am really fascinated also was there a moment when you realized i'm famous people know me for being like the best eyebrow person in hollywood like how did you feel during this moment um

33:34Phoebe:from the beginning i never had in mind like oh i want to be famous i'm like i wanted to master my craft. I wanted to be the best in what I did. And of course, when you get the validation of every celebrity, every client that came, I have clients that are my clients and they are still in the salon for 35 years. You guys understand that? That's a power that and a confidence that the client gives you. You know, if I am constantly every three weeks coming and you shave my eyebrows, I'm doing something good. So my confidence grew just seeing all these people coming over and over every month. And it's very satisfying.

34:22And being famous, to me, that's not, and was never such a

34:29Phoebe:big goal in my life, to be famous. I wanted to be recognized for doing the best job, being the best in what I did, creating the best product. To me, empowering women, giving back to the community that really supported me because my clients, my celebrity clients, my everyday clients, they helped me to build this, to build this trust. And I wanted to give back.

34:56Anastasia Soare:I mean, it's amazing what you've built. And something that also has always stood out to me about your brand is you guys have an incredible social media presence. I mean, I think it's over 18 million followers on Instagram. You're so savvy digitally. When did that become part of the story?

35:11Phoebe:So my daughter in 2012 used to come with me. I used to drag her everywhere around the country to train the esthetician. And obviously, what kid at 18 wants to work seven days a week? You know, and I will always remember she used to say, Mom, I'm 18. I work like I'm 50 years old. I don't have a life. I work nonstop. Like, well, we have to do it. We have no choice. And she came to me one day and was like, Mom, maybe we don't need to travel that much. is this app we could post products and pictures and maybe we could talk and teach the the client how to use the products and we don't need to travel that much it's called instagram like okay so i was surrounded a lot of my employees were young people because i always thought that it's it's so so good so i learned from them so much because i i didn't even know how to use a computer when I came here.

36:16And we start, I said, yeah, absolutely.

36:20Phoebe:Let's see it. So we start posting the, I remember we posted Brow Wiz and kind of talk about how you could use it. Because the beginning, they didn't have videos. If I don't know, you guys, you're too young. You don't remember, but they didn't have videos. And of course, we read every single comment. And was one comment that said, oh, I wish I would have this. I could buy this. And I said, send me your address and I will ship you one. And she answered, oh, you can't because I'm from a small village in India. When I heard that, I thought, whoa, to reach somebody in India, it's incredible for us.

37:01Phoebe:This is a miracle. So let's really work on this. So we start and then once they start having videos on Instagram was a lot easier to show tutorial. And that was, we were the first brand, beauty brand to have a presence on Instagram. And we created that influencer community because we start shipping products to the ones that we thought they are skilled. And at the beginning, the camera on iPhone wasn't that good. But I went in China and I discovered the ring light. So I bought a few ring lights and I sent them to some of the influencers, some of the makeup artists that they were better. And we kind of taught them how to take pictures.

37:46Phoebe:Then my daughter discovered Sony 6 camera that had a Wi-Fi. And we sent them some of the camera to take better quality pictures. And, you know, this is how it became a beautiful community of people that love makeup. This is how the influencer community started.

38:08Sophia:And I love this story of your mom having you work with her and then you having your daughter work with you. Can you talk me through the story of like when you took her under your wing and started to work together? Like, what did that look like? And now today is she's, you know, grown up and is the president of the company. Like, what is your guys's working relationship look like? Do you have to have boundaries with your personal relationship as well? And what does it look like when you guys disagree?

38:32Phoebe:Oh, we fight all the time. But we fight without even, I don't know, it's never like, oh, my God, I'm going to fight. I'm going to with her and we'll not talk for three months. After five minutes, it's all normal. This is how Eastern Europeans are. But, I mean, it started from the beginning, of course. She didn't want to work. I remember she used to say, I want to have fun. I want to go with my friends. like yeah but you need the gas money you need this you need money to buy whatever so you want you have to work so I give her no choice you know why because I work so long hours I was never around her to know what she's doing so I thought being in the salon I could keep an eye on her and that will be helpful.

39:28Phoebe:And she will watch me and see how hard I work. Because we mom usually, we feel so guilty because we work long hours and we don't go to kids' activity and we feel very guilty. But I think if the kids will see us, how hard we work, I think it's very impactful and they learn that and they will become you. and uh yeah it was i fired her when she started because she was late she used to go out with her friends and she had to be at the salon at 8 30 in the morning she wasn't so after the third time i fired her how old was she she was 18 and um she went and she worked at the insurance company and And after a month, she came to ask me if I could give her some money because she didn't have enough to pay her rent after taxes, after whatever.

40:27Phoebe:And I said, no, I'm sorry. I can't do that for you because I came in this country. I didn't speak the language. I had the kid. And I figure out. You should figure out. She was extraordinary at her job. And I wanted her to kind of wanted to come back. I didn't want myself to ask her to come back.

40:49Sophia:Was there a little bit of pride in there too? Of course. I wanted to teach her a lesson.

40:55Phoebe:Good mother. She stayed there for like an hour, like, Mom, he's going to kick me out. I need to, like, no. Look, I could give you one more chance. You could come back because you are very good in whatever you did, but we have to have rules. I'm not your mother when you walk in. and I'm going to be tougher on you than everybody else because I will set an example. And this is how everything started. And after that, I think it was a lot easier, you know.

41:27Anastasia Soare:What did she do and how did she rise up?

41:30Phoebe:So she worked at the, run the salon. And after a few years, she kind of got bored and she started working at the corporate office. And every year she would be in different departments. marketing department sales, product development. I wanted her to understand every aspect of the business. And now she's doing so much. She does the product development. She does our director, everything on social media, everything on all the photo shoots for the gondola. She's basically involved in everything. Both of us, we have control over everything. But I keep her away from the finance part. I mean, I still sign the checks, believe it or not.

42:24Phoebe:And she deals with a lot. She has a lot in her plate. But she loves what she does. I mean, I remember the days when I used to call her in the morning. It was 9 o 'clock and I could hear that she just woke up like,

42:38Sophia:Why? You are not at work.

42:40Phoebe:And now it's 10 o 'clock at night and I call her like, you have to go home you know wow she works like seven days a week but finally a few years ago we start taking some vacations but we always connect vacation with events because we have to we we have a global we are in 35 countries so if we go somewhere we do events and we'll take two three days for ourselves and it's perfect because for us if we take let's say 10 days vacation so much work will pile up that it's not even worth it so it works for us but we have a great relationship and again if we have to have a different idea about something we talked we and it's important sometimes to to have two perspective on when you when you look at something You know, she's younger, I'm more mature, and it's important to have, especially when you make products for every demographic.

43:50Anastasia Soare:And how did you learn the business side and the finances?

43:55Phoebe:Well, finances, I think, you know, when you don't know the way, you make your own way. Because I didn't go here. I didn't have an education in the United States. I had no idea how to do a balance sheet. But you learn the hard way, the easy way, the old way. And you don't spend money that you don't have because nobody will ever give me a loan. Nobody believed in eyebrows. That would be a business. But I think I worked so hard. I made the money and I had to spend what I had. and I had a part-time job. I used to flip houses because I went to construction architecture school in Romania and I used to buy homes and remodel, leave there for a year or two and then sell them and the profit I would put in the company.

44:54So, you know,

44:55Phoebe:working nonstop but at least I did something that I loved. I mean, you built

45:02Sophia:a billion dollar company.

45:04Phoebe:I know.

45:04Sophia:And I want to know what's next for you in the business over the next five years?

45:08Phoebe:Well, I'm still working. I love what I do. I want to empower clients. We always, innovation is number one for us. We are still innovating, coming up with new products for eyebrows and everything else, and expanding, expanding the business. We are in 35 countries, but we want to be in more, more stores. And I want everyone to have our makeup and feel good about themselves, learning how to do their makeup. Like India is growing right now. In April, probably I'm going to go there. It's a market that exploded. And I don't know if you both know, but in India, culture, weddings are five days, and everybody loves makeup, and they love our products.

46:03Phoebe:So I'm really excited to go there. Wait, and I need to know who has the best brows you've ever done. I think all my clients have best eyebrows. Like Jennifer Lopez has beautiful eyebrows. Oprah Winfrey has beautiful eyebrows. Haile Bieber has beautiful eyebrows. Kendall Jenner, Kim Kardashian. God, the list is Victoria Beckham.

46:29Anastasia Soare:Was there someone where you did their eyebrows and it was like your Super Bowl, you were so excited? Other than Oprah, of course.

46:37Phoebe:I mean, I'm excited about everyone. I take so much joy because I see the transformation. So I'm excited. And of course, when I see the client excited, it's double excitement. That makes sense.

46:51Anastasia Soare:Yeah, I feel like the Kardashians have such nice eyebrows. They're Armenian, right? Yes. And I feel like it's so nice. It's so satisfying seeing them in shape. Yes, yes.

47:00Phoebe:And I do North eyebrows too. She has the most gorgeous eyebrows.

47:05Anastasia Soare:Oh my God, that's so cute. That's amazing.

47:08Phoebe:Because you know what's happening? Kids will, even if the mom will say, no, don't do it. You are young and you don't need to. They will do it themselves. Like they will find a girlfriend that will tweeze off their eyebrows and then doesn't grow back.

47:23Anastasia Soare:Oh my God, I got my eyebrows thudded for the first time and I didn't tell my mom. you see and my mom was like what on earth did you do yeah eyebrows they're so thin she was freaking out and i was like well i you didn't want to go do you see this is exactly what happened

47:39Phoebe:yeah good lesson guys i always advise my clients if your daughter is bringing out the questions like mom i want my bothers me i get teas at school take them to a salon and have them professionally done because they will do it doesn't matter what and they will obviously over tweeze. And I have to ask for my boyfriend, what should men do? Oh yeah, that's a good question. Men should have the eyebrow groomed and not shaped. They need to clean a little bit here, not too much space here because men's brow bone is very proeminent, much more proeminent. So if If the space is too big, it makes the future a little too strong.

48:24Phoebe:And they need to be clean a little bit, not shaped like for a woman.

48:28Sophia:And for young entrepreneurs today, what would you say are lessons they need to learn or traits they need to have to survive in business?

48:34Phoebe:I think they have to be resilient. I think they have to find one thing that they will become very good at, not five that will be mediocre. I think they have to have the emotional strength because there will be really difficult moments when you become an entrepreneur. And to take decision under pressure, that's another important part of being an entrepreneur. and they should not wait, oh, I need to be ready. I need to have a plan. Like, just start. And then you will figure out maybe you start something and you are not okay. Maybe you realize this is not what I want. You could change. You pivot and you do something else.

49:24Phoebe:But start something.

49:26Anastasia Soare:Thank you so much for coming on The Burnouts.

49:27Phoebe:We couldn't be more honored.

49:29Anastasia Soare:You're welcome. Your story is amazing. Thank you so much. And your advice is great. I'm going to go actually tell my boyfriend that he needs to wax his eyebrows. Uhh