How Sara Blakely went from fax machine sales to Forbes billionaire

0:00It's been about a week since we launched FIA and honestly it still does not feel real. It's been equal parts overwhelming and also really thrilling to be able to build with my best friend. But we are in dire need of advice. So having Sarah on couldn't be more incredible, especially now after, you know, years of us talking about you and what you did with Spanx from our dorm room. Yeah, Sarah Blakely, the iconic founder of Spanx and now the founder of Sneaks is here to give the burnouts the scoop on her best advice. Let's do it. Sarah Blakely is also one of our first investors. We reached out to her before we had a product, before we had anything.

0:35And your advice on listening to ourselves, focusing on mobile, we should have listened to you a long time ago, but we couldn't be more thankful to have you on. So Sarah Blakely, welcome to The Burnouts.

0:49Thank you. I'm excited. I think it's really interesting. I was reading that you have a lot of IP around the stuff that you've built at Spanx, and now at Sneaks. How do you think of mechanical engineering behind a product as well? And what is that for someone who's never worked in like clothing development stuff? Like what does that even look like? It looks like a 29 year old girl standing in a factory in Asheboro, North Carolina with only men who have real Southern accents saying, but it doesn't feel right, right here. What does that mean? It's like squeezing me right here. I literally used how I felt to develop every aspect of the garments.

1:30Over time, I learned the language. I'd be like, you got to splice in a three-by-one lycra yarn. But I did not have any experience in what I was doing. I used how I felt and the results I wanted to achieve. I always like to say to people, if you don't know how something's supposed to be done, that can be your greatest asset. And if you let it. because a lot of people who don't know how it's supposed to be done will let the self-doubt become too strong. Like, how could I be the one with the answer? I'm not the expert. I didn't go to school for this. And so they don't really trust or pursue that, but it's a gift because if you don't know how it's supposed to be done, you're going to ensure you do it different, right?

2:12Like the only true innovation ever happens when you do it different than everybody else. I found not knowing and not having any degrees in any of the stuff I was doing actually really helped me. But I had done a lot of work on my mindset as this young girl from Clearwater Beach, Florida, you know, that gave me the courage to stand in a room with a bunch of experts that were men that were like 20 years older than me and gently challenge. And what is that mindset work? Like what can we do? I have been doing mindset work since I'm 16 years old. So I always tell people like, I had no idea what I wanted to do all through my 20s, like none.

2:52Like I sold fax machines door to door for seven years, ladies. I mean, I got kicked out of every other building. People ripped up my business card in my face once a week. But the one thing that I did do was I invested in my mindset. So I, at the time, my dad gave me Dr. Wayne Dyer and they were back then cassette tapes. Like I'm really dating myself. Okay. Anyway, and he was a psychologist that wrote several books on basically a growth mindset. So here I am in the 80s. I'm at Clearwater High and I put in these cassette tapes and the first time anyone had ever talked to me about how to think versus what to think.

3:31So manifesting what you want, visualization, law of attraction, not fearing failure, not caring what other people think about you or maybe your ideas, which as a 16 year old girl at Clearwater High. Like that's all we cared about, right? As 16 year olds is what is everyone thinking about me? Nobody wanted to be stuck in my car after a party, guys. Okay. I would. I might want to be. Phoebe, maybe we would have been good friends at Clearwater High, but like the majority was like, what is going on? They would get in my car. Everyone else was listening to Bon Jovi and Madonna and they'd get in my car and be like, what do you really want with your life?

4:05And they'd be like, Sarah. I always have them. They were all over the floor of my car always. And I'd be putting them in. And I'd be like, no, no, no, guys, this is like, this is amazing. This is going to change our lives. I even took it to my principal at Clearwater High and asked him if we could teach mindset as a elective. And he laughed. He was like, Sarah, I don't know. I think you need to like maybe go to a therapist for whatever you're dealing with. But I was like, no, seriously, this is really going to be life-changing. And maybe instead of like home ec or one of these other electives, we could be teaching mindset.

4:38And then, you know, fast forward like 10 years, 15 years after I graduate from Clearwater High, I was on the cover of Forbes and all my friends from Clearwater High, they texted me and all they wrote was, damn, should have listened to that shit. So I literally, I had no idea. I was a totally lost 20 something, right? From 21 to basically 27. I'm selling fax machines door to door. No idea. I knew I was good in sales. One day after work, I pulled off the side of the road and I was like, I'm in the wrong movie. call the director call the producer cut this is not my life and I went home that night I'd like been kicked out of another office building and I was like what am I doing and I wrote down my strengths and the only real thing in my strength column that I knew was sales and I was like okay I'm good at sales why do I like sales I asked myself that really important additional question because if I just said I'm good at sales and I like sales I probably would have went and got another sales job.

5:35But instead I said, Sarah, why? And the why behind it was I really liked giving something or selling something to somebody that improved their life or made their job easier or helped them. And so I wrote in my journal that night, I'm going to invent something that I can sell to millions of people that will make them feel good. And the second I wrote that in my journal, I asked for the idea. So I literally said, cause I didn't know what the idea was. I literally said, universe, give me the idea. And I will not squander it. And two years later, still selling fax machines, still working at that company, I cut the feet out of my own control top pantyhose to wear under white pants to a party.

6:13And the pantyhose rolled up my legs all night. But my body and my rear was like, had no blemishes. It didn't show panty lines. And I thought, I should create this. Maybe this is the idea. Yeah, because the soundbite for me for 20 years is Sarah Blakely cut the feet out of her pantyhose and like Spanx is here. But the behind the scenes is I set the intention for that two years prior and was very clear with the universe of what I wanted. So I only cut the feet out of my pantyhose one time to solve an undergarment issue when I decided to start working nights and weekends for two years to see if I could get that prototype made.

6:48I feel very lucky that I met Phoebe and we were able to find really early on like what we cared about and what we wanted to spend our time on. But I know so many of my other friends like they don't like their corporate job right now or they don't even know what career they want to go into. They just graduated from college. If you were to talk to one of those young people, what would your like Sarah Blakely quick tips? This is how to get ahead in life. What would those be? Number one would be mindset. I would say find anything, listen to podcasts, read books, spend time like discovering yourself.

7:19What do you like? What are you good at? What don't you like? What blockages do you have? There's a lot of people out there that have negative scripts around money. They have negative scripts around deserving a lot of, you know, success. And so I would say do that work in the meantime and then trust and then ask the universe, be very specific or whatever you want to call it, be very clear and specify what you want. And I got to tell you guys, I started Spanx with$5 ,000. I went up against billion-dollar companies. I was up against Haynes and Sarah Lee and these giants with incredible ad budgets and teams of people that were all trained in what they were doing and what they were making.

8:00I really have to say I think one of the main reasons why I was able to not only continue but to end up disrupting an entire industry around that with no experience was the work I had been doing on myself. And it honestly ties into something I would love your advice with that I think we really still struggle with is really the idea that comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah, for sure. Especially I think for us, like we're building in the fashion tech space and there's a lot of new startups. People are doing a lot of things and it can get really overwhelming when you see someone doing super, something super similar to your idea.

8:34And then you're like, oh, should we do it the way that they're doing it? Or what should we do? Like, how have you dealt with that through your career? I mean, there's always knockoffs. I mean, I got like I could tell you guys story after story of people knocking off Spanx or trying to knock off Spanx. I always stayed super connected to the product. And if I was proud of my product and what the consumer was feeling, and if I knew I was making a difference in her life, that's what I'm mostly focused on. I didn't obsess competition at all, really. I mean, I was very much like trying to solve an issue for myself.

9:08You girls know what you want. You know how you want to use it. you know what you're looking for and I think you don't want to get too sidetracked by what someone else is doing I think you can learn from what other people are doing I mean there's there's interesting things that I would see out there that would give me an idea that I'd add to something I was doing but I never really paid much attention to the competition I love that I think that's really great that's healthy and definitely something we should incorporate and you guys want to have fun right like you want to have fun you want to enjoy this ride you want to make women's lives easier and better you want them to have joy when they're shopping feel like they're smart consumers you want to help the environment like stay connected to your why and don't stress about the rest and how do you do that mindset work like can you do it via books and podcasts and journaling do you need like formalized therapy to do it I didn't use I used Wayne Dyer like I he had he had audio lectures and I was constantly listening to them.

10:12I then found, you know, all these other people back then Zig Ziglar, Brian Tracy. Um, there weren't a lot of women in the category, but I was always listening. Tony Robbins, there were certain things that I was really getting out of, um, what he was saying. Do you have now like a routine that also helps you keep that mindset? I found that the most important thing for me to get connected to was when did I recharge? how did I recharge and where could I hear my own intuition that inner voice because someone writing that down because we'll run this back for later I'm gonna sign in the office that's gonna guide you more than anything so I want to ask you guys this right now where does your mind wander and I'm not talking about where you go through your checklist of what you need to do where do you daydream in your daily schedule and in your life right now a long hot bath for me I like home from work late at night, I'll put the laptop off on the side, I'll throw in a bath bomb, kick my feet up.

11:09Like that for me, I feel like is when I'm able to like think. And you'll daydream. Yeah. I would say this is probably bad, but I honestly spend probably like at least 30 minutes every night just kind of decompressing, going off my phone and I just sit with my thoughts. I'm like, if this really is a good idea, I will wake up in the morning and I will still remember it. And there's definitely been times I wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh shit, I don't remember the idea, but that usually means it wasn't the right idea. It wasn't something super important. But if I remember that idea in the morning, or if I feel so strongly that it is such a good idea, I need to pick up my phone to text someone, even though I'm so tired.

11:47That's when I know I'm actually doing really good deep thinking. What I'm impressed with is I asked you guys both this. You both had a quick answer. Like a lot of people will go, I don't know where that happens for me. So I encourage people first to figure out where it does happen. And then second, once it happens, be intentional about making sure that happens at least daily for you somehow, right? Like the bath or the time alone. For me, I found out where I get my best downloads is the car. If I'm driving, there's something about that rote activity of driving that I access a certain part of my brain and I'll get intuitive downloads.

12:22So once I figured that it was in the car, I would create what my friends called a fake commute. and I would schedule time in my car to drive around aimlessly. So I live six minutes from Spanx. I would get in my car an hour before I had to be at the office to drive around aimlessly before I went into the office.

12:43I love all your stories that you shared about having faith. Like you met your husband. You knew he was the one. You met him late in your life. Like how do you view your support system? Yeah, I mean, I didn't get married till I was 37. I dated all kinds of people that didn't you know that was like the success didn't bother them and then it somehow became an issue and so I went through a lot of that and um and then when I met Jesse I I kind of knew right away I was like oh he's in my movie like the minute I met him I was like oh he's in my movie the other people I dated weren't in my movie I was like yeah I don't see them in my movie but with jesse i remember being specifically nervous about having to share with him that my level of financial success at the time i didn't want it to ruin what we had and it didn't it was great but i mean jesse was so clueless when he first started dating him i'm not even kidding you guys i he's like so spanks are sold at barnes and noble right i'm like no like what in the hell are you talking about and he's like well what is it and he could not figure it out or grasp it so I would overhear him he's such a guy's guy he'd be at parties and he'd be telling people like trying to explain what the hell Spanx was and then one day I just remember him going I don't know it's like she's the Michael Jordan of underwear and they'd all be like whoa that's amazing what a branding expert that's kind of fire get him on the Spanx payroll he needs to be on the marketing team I love that but I was at dinner with him on the upper west side in New York and we were engaged and we were getting married in a few months and I was so nervous to tell him that I was more successful than I think he thought I was.

14:23And I was like, my heart was racing. And I'm like, Sarah, I have to tell him. I have to tell him. I have to tell him before we get married. Like, this is just something I need to share. And I go, honey, I have something I need to tell you. And he was, I never forget, he was in the middle of eating spaghetti. And like the spaghetti was half hanging out of his mouth. And his eyes got really big. Because I think he thought I was going to throw a bomb or end it. I don't know what. And I go, I think I make more money than you think I do. And he just looked at me. And I swear, I think his eyes teared up a little bit.

14:48and he goes, couldn't have happened to a nicer person. And then just kept eating his spaghetti. And it didn't change one thing about our relationship. But to answer your question about who I surround myself with, I have sort of an informal board. So when I make decisions, I call these two or three people. And sometimes there's a fourth that like rotates in or out. And I'd hate to be the fourth. Tough to be the fourth. Tough when you think you're in the three, but you're the fourth. That would be tough. Well, listen, the fourth doesn't know. and the three don't even really know that they're on this informal board jesse's the fourth and the fourth the fourth changes too throughout like you know so and i will call them and just pressure test like i'll give them a little bit of the context i'll get their opinions um that's always been part of my decision making process but then i always get quiet alone and i and then i always if it's a really big decision i specifically ask the universe for a sign.

15:47And I have been given very clear, very specific signs throughout my life. It is part of my decision making, which can you imagine trying to explain this to a bunch of investors? I didn't have investors. So I was able to just kind of honor this very direct link with my own intuition. So if anybody's building a business and has investors, surround yourself with people who are going to support you really honoring your intuition and that inner knowing and inner voice, because that is really important. And you're never going to find intuition on a spreadsheet. It's just not going to be there. It's not in the data necessarily.

16:22Sometimes it goes against the data. The data is really important. But for me, that's how I make decisions. Give me an example of one of those signs. Like if you have a story. Oh my God, they're so specific and so intense. I'll go back to Spanx. I was trying to decide if I should do this crazy idea. And I was on two paths in my life at the time. and I said to the universe, I'm so tired of thinking about this. You just give me a really clear sign. And maybe three or four months later, I had been trying to get this made and had already started working on the patent, wrote most of the patent myself.

16:58And Oprah, I got the end of her show and she showed the world that she cut the feet out of control top pantyhose to solve an undergarment issue. And I mean, could that be more direct? and could that be more direct from someone who I really admired and respected like it was like oh my god it's my signs from Oprah and prior to that I had never heard of that thought of it it's like something I'd already spent 18 months trying to work and was about to give up on so then once that happened I was like oh oh this is like bigger than me like once I would get these winks from the universe it would give me so much strength and courage to be able to stand in the room with people who had 20 years experience and say no no no no like I'm I kind of felt like I was being guided and if you're the one that's so interesting you're the one Phoebe taught me something really similar to what you just said like the executive committee oh yeah Phoebe would always before we made a decision was like I need to talk to my executive committee and then you know I need my mom is on the phone yeah hey Melinda uh we're gonna need a quick one yeah and I was like oh my god I've never thought of that I feel like I had an informal executive committee where obviously when I was struggling with things I would call my aunt or my sister but the concept of formalizing it has been so cognitively helpful for me because every time I'm in a really hard situation I'm like executive committee time yeah they if they think the same thing or if they have advice like it will make me feel better and I think it's having that default of like struggle equal executive committee is so that's just so interesting that you both yeah really do that have you guys ever asked for a sign oh my god yes I'm obsessed with numbers I look for signs and numbers all the time like that's why my phone everyone's like why is your phone on military mode but it's because it's easier for me to see like angel numbers are things that I honestly always look to for signs like there's been so many times in my life where I'm like I need a sign or I don't know what's happening and like I need to feel a sense of I'm on the right path or I'm making the right decision boom like I see a number that I was just thinking about or like a number that gives me a good feeling Phoebe thinks I'm crazy but I I like very like I I think when I see the right numbers it's that's my sign like I look for numbers yeah right now I'm really I really like 444 I've been looking for 444 and 222 a lot why do you think she's crazy because I think it's hilarious she'll always be wherever we are we'll be like stop we got a number i'm like wait wait i need to take a photo of the phone like we gotta start on everything we're doing it's just concerning because when your founder co-founder goes oh no no no no i'm like the app is crashed so i immediately go to open my app and she's got her phone somewhere taking a photo of a number somewhere oh my goodness and why haven't you asked for a sign i think i should i definitely need to i think I get it like emotional feelings like intuition about things like that and I'm very superstitious about like 11 11 on the clock like setting my intentions for the next day at that time but honestly like I haven't like specifically asked for a sign I think that's something I'm gonna do now doing and get back to me I will I don't want to hear how it goes I'm not gonna call her crazy and she says the number thing no but you know what's interesting it's a lot of people will say well I've never gotten a sign like what do you mean and I'll say have you ever asked for one and they say no.

20:17So it's, it's honestly as simple as that. If you ever want to test it, ask for a sign, be very specific. I also got a very specific sign that I'm not going to share here because I'll end up sharing it one day in my book on selling the majority of Spanx, which was an enormous decision for me, a very, very big decision. And I said to the universe, okay, I need a sign and it can't be a rainbow. Like it can't be generic. I was like I can't kind of wonder I can't I can't wonder like was that my sign and it gave me the most specific sign ever to do it to go forward with it and are you glad you did that it was very difficult decision it was really an enormous transition for any founders I mean I own Spanx 100 % of it for 21 years I was like it's mother it's father it's like but I made a decision that felt like an inner knowing, you know?

21:15And people would ask me for 21 years, like, when are you going to sell Spanx? Do you want to go public? And I'd always say, I'll just know. Can you walk me through the process of, like, the selling a business, like, just to dumb it down, like, what does it look like when you're like, okay, now I'm ready to sell this thing? Like, do you reach out to people? Do people reach out to you? Are people always reaching out if a business is successful? People have been reaching out for 21 years with Spanx. In fact, the first six months into the business, all these people kept going, what's your exit strategy?

21:43I didn't even know what an exit strategy was, you guys. I just remember said, finally, I go, I want to exit a room and look good. Like, that's my exit strategy. Leave me alone. Like, I don't know. It's fixed, right? And so, yeah, I think the first thing that I did because I had made the decision was I reached out to people that I knew could help sell the business, and I started the process. and it was it was you know a lot of lawyers involved a lot of voices involved and you know I really had to spend a lot of time checking in with myself along the way. I think it's so amazing that you figured literally everything out yourself especially what I really am curious about is what was your process of building a team like when did you realize I can't be the only one didn't you do customer service out of your bathtub or something?

22:32When did you realize, okay, I need a real customer service team or I need more people. It can't just be me. Well, right away. And I always say, as soon as you can afford to hire your weaknesses. And one thing that I would tell you guys is know your superpower. You each have one or two minimum superpowers that you and only you are going to be the best at contributing to the business that you're starting right now. stay in your lane as much as you can and when you start you're everything like when I started spanks was the packer the ship or the before and after butt model like everything it was like and it's overwhelming but I knew what I was best at and what I could contribute and as soon as I had the money to afford to I hired operator yeah to run the day-to-day that's not my jam I'm not great at operating it doesn't fuel me up I you know it's not where my energy is I know that I like to invent, market, and sell.

23:29So what happens as an entrepreneur is, and this happened to me, as you grow your business, you will start to get more and more removed away with your main superpower. And then you'll start to really experience burnout much faster than if you stay in your lane. So at the end of each day, a good litmus test is, did I spend the majority of my day-to-day doing what I'm best at. And if you have like months, years, like days where you're like, I didn't spend any time doing what I'm best at, then you either need to hire people around you, make changes with the hires around you. And what I want to say about hiring and building a team since you asked, it's really hard.

24:14I asked Warren Buffett, who I have a lot of respect for. I said, Warren, you bought a lot of companies. You've seen a lot of CEOs throughout your time. And like, one thing I really want to ask you is how do you hire? Like, is there a tip you want to give me? Is there something you've seen work? And he goes, oh, Sarah, you know, it's 50 % luck. I was like, thanks, Warren. But he's right. I mean, it's really, you can try to do a lot. The most important thing would be to fire fast. That's hard to do. How'd you learn how to do that? We've started, that's been, frankly, a huge learning for us because, and I'll speak transparently, like, when we first started the company and you know we raise we're so thankful to have you as an investor I know I'm excited we love that but by the way I'm going to always honor your intuition you guys call me and say we're doing this crazy idea and no one else thinks it makes sense I'm going to be like don't worry watch out we'll put you in the bathtub when you thought of this Phoebe then do it on the Rolodex of the executive council unfortunately but we felt like this pressure to hire people that we thought were older and smarter than us now we've hired still people we think are smarter than us but oftentimes you know aren't people with a ton of industry experience but are you know willing to roll up their sleeves and do everything that we need as a startup but how did you learn like to fire super fast because I think that was something that we really struggled with particularly like the six months you know after we had raised it's really hard I would say that I hired someone to help me do that smart and one thing that's really ironic that I didn't realize how kind of unique this was until I started having conversations with other business owners many years later, which is how I would learn what I was doing was either more mainstream or really completely off the rocker according to what they're teaching in school.

26:00For 25 years, I had one direct report. How did you structure that? I always had one person that was my right hand that was the president or the appointed CEO, and that was my direct report, and the leadership team reported to them. When do you know, okay, I need to go get best practices from industry experts, and when do you know I need to rip up the playbook and do this myself?

26:27I never asked industry experts. It served you well. I mean, I use the industry experts to help co-create. Like, they know what they're doing. So, of course, I'd be in the room and at the manufacturing plant going, what if we did this? And, you know, I was always the one that was really pushing outside of the bounds of what they had been trained to do. And they would always respond, it can't be done, no matter what. It was like a default. And I would get really excited when they say it can't be done because that meant like, oh, that's where I want to play. Like, what do you mean it can't be done?

27:01And then I would always respond, we put a man on the moon. That kind of became my thing. I was like, we put a man on the moon and you're telling me we can't attach control top to open weave fishnets. It's like, hmm, can we rethink this? You know, they're like, can't be done. It's going to separate. It's not going to work. I'm like, mm-hmm, okay. How do you stay that persistent? Like, how do you not take no for an answer? I just feel like, of course it can be done. Of course it can be done. It's just, it's your truth. I love that. It's my truth. Like, I don't even know another. It's just so apparent to me.

27:40So we're going to name different business things. And if you say Spanx, like good, no Spanx is cut it bad. Got it. Think of your early days when you were in the middle of it. Like, would you have done this Spanx or no Spanx? Okay. Number one, dropping out of college to start a business without a business degree. It could go Spanx or no Spanx. True. Okay. Wearing heels on a red carpet. Spanx. Okay. Unless you're wearing sneaks. Then definitely. That's even better. Um, firing someone who's an incredible genius, but they're toxic for your culture. Spanx. You got to get rid of them. Yeah. Okay. Posting your idea on TikTok to validate it before it's patented.

28:26No Spanx. Really? Why? You want to protect it. How do you go about knowing that people actually really like your idea before you start working on it? If you like it, which is what I did, I felt comfortable enough to move forward. Like if it filled a void in my life, which in my case, it was my closet, then I was willing to move forward with it. I had maybe a few friends. My mom gave me feedback. But I really trusted how me as a consumer felt with the product and the void that it filled. And you talked about sneaks being like a process for 15 years. What did that look like? Like from conception, comfortable, healed, duh.

29:10Everyone wants that. That's a genius idea. But how did it go from that to like, okay, I'm going to bring this to life. Oh my gosh. Well, it took 10 years. And the first four years, I had two people at Spanx that were actually bra designers and bra builders. Bras are really technical that I pulled aside to help me make the shoe. And I wanted it to look just like a traditional high heel. That was the goal, but to be exponentially more comfortable. After four years of development, I didn't, it was more comfortable, but it wasn't exponentially more comfortable. So I said to the team, we're going to cut our losses that already invested a lot of money.

29:46But I always say, if you're going to create a product, you want to make sure it's exponentially better than what's already out there. For me, I have sort of this 10 X thought in my mind, because you want to build a moat around what you're doing. And starting a new business is really, really hard. So you want that kind of an advantage. And they weren't comfortable enough. So as I was throwing in the towel, I said to the factory in Spain, like, guys, I don't understand why this has been so hard. I just want my high heel to feel like my sneaker. And then in that moment, I looked at the team and I said, you know what?

30:23Let's not give up. I have another thought. And I decided to merge a sneaker with a heel. I went home from Spain, cut my sneaker in half, cut my high heel in half, glued them together, hobbled around my house thinking, would this even kind of look good together? Would it work? I completely pivoted the inventing and the direction of it. And so I didn't set out to create a shoe that looked like this at all. The innovation and my goal for comfort is what led me to this. I love that so much. It's literally like the, if you want something done right, do it yourself. totally and you know what's so interesting is like I'm fascinated by things that haven't changed in a really long time some things in our culture iterate constantly and then some things I mean a high heel has been the same since the 1700s you guys I mean it's made by men it's been made by men for centuries so there wasn't the point of view of comfort and that's where I get really excited I get really energized by wait a minute women have been neglected how we feel has been neglected I feel like the beauty industry has been really focused for a long time on how we look, but not how we feel.