Pop Star Ava Max on the Real Story Behind “Sweet But Psycho” and Why She Left The Spotlight

0:00I remember that moment and I'm just like I never want to deal with this ever again. Today we're joined by global pop star Ava Max. From growing up in a first-generation immigrant household to topping charts in over 20 countries with hits like Sweet Fit Psycho and Kings and Queens, Ava's music has been streamed over 70 billion times. Every day I fight for my career. I want to do this on my own, but that's where I got in trouble because I didn't have anyone there to protect me in those rooms. Hi, I'm Ava Max and welcome to The Burnouts. Ava Max, welcome to The Burnouts. You convinced your family to move to L.A.

0:33twice. All these incredible chance encounters. Tell us about your beginnings. My parents are super supportive. They're 100 % Albanian, but I was born in the States. My brother was also born in Albania. And then how did you convince them to go to L.A. with you? There was not much convincing. I mean, my mom was always so supportive. She's such a firecracker. I get my boldness from her and her strength. She's just like not afraid to start over. I was 14 and she took me out of eighth grade, didn't even let me graduate. She's like, we're homeschooling you. She's like, we're going to L.A. There's nothing left for you in Virginia.

1:07And if you want to sing, we got to start now. I'm like, OK. I'm like, that's great. And I had been doing so many singing competitions in Florida because we had been driving down to Florida that started with all that. And I just love to perform. Always behind the curtain, I was so nervous. But anytime I like right when I hit the stage, it like felt like I like grew wings. So I knew it was like what I was meant to do. You guys ended up leaving L.A. once, right? And then going back. Can you walk me through that? Yeah. So we stayed in L.A. for the first time when I was 14, right, for a year. No one wanted to sign a 14-year-old girl because, you know, what are you going to do, right?

1:42What am I going to do, go on tour by myself? No. So they're like, come back when you're like 18. And that's what we did. But we ended up in South Carolina. South Kakalaki is what I used to call it. So for two years, which was really fun. although at the time I didn't love it as much because I had to make new friends and it was high school time so it was very difficult those years were really hard for me like 16 15 really hard for me yeah but I learned to like uh stand up for myself which is very important I think for when you get older because you gotta do that in your career you know you I'm fighting to this day every day I fight for my career and I think that's what a lot of people don't know about me they're just like, oh, she just like got handed everything.

2:24She's an industry plant. That's what I read online. And I'm just like, that couldn't be farthest from the truth. So you moved to LA again. And tell us about those early days of trying to meet the right people in the industry. What did that look like? I mean, I'll start at 17 when I came back to LA. It was tough. I couldn't meet anyone really. It was just a friend of a friend of a friend that would maybe hook me up for a studio session, but then I wouldn't get my drives back. And it was really hard being a female, actually, in the industry growing up because, you know, you get hit on and it's just really uncomfortable.

3:00And then I would just be like staying in the studio for as long as I could to finish the record. But then I'm like, I felt uncomfortable. So I left so I couldn't stay for too long. So it was just like, it was a back and forth a lot. And I just, I didn't feel like I I could really grow when I got here until I met some collaborators and then I got signed and then I got really lucky to find my tribe at the time. And that's when I started really becoming me, Ava Max. That's when I started becoming like the version of me that I feel like I was always looking for growing up. But I'm always evolving.

3:37So everyone's always evolving. It's not always It's just like, OK, end, period, you're done. It's like I feel like I'm constantly growing and learning. And how long was it the second time you moved to L.A. until you get signed? I got signed at 22. So, yeah, about like five years, which felt like forever. Yeah, I could imagine, especially if you're hustling, you're dealing with like sexual harassment. And that's really intense. I imagine that a lot of the friends that you have from that period of time are still people you're super close with. Oh, yeah, I have a girlfriend. She's my best friend of 12 years.

4:07I met her outside of Sephora. my fans know her Tasha we love her um she's my bestie she's like a sister but she saved me from a lot of situations like I was locked in a room by a producer when I was uh 20 years old and he called my tears crocodile tears uh I don't think I've ever said that to anyone um in public I remember that moment and I'm just like I never want to deal with this ever again and um I just kind of I kind of got into like a little hermit mode and got really sad that year I remember and then and then I started meeting the right people a year later but I almost quit at 20 for sure.

4:47Do you think it's systemic this kind of abuse of talent within LA or do you think it's more that these were experiences where you like particularly there was a predator who took advantage because you were young? I think it's gotten better but I don't know I don't know for sure but it seems like it's gotten better but when I was trying to make it it was really hard it was really hard to make music with people because they all wanted to either sleep with me or just yeah either sleep with me or just like do bad things and I just felt uncomfortable I mean imagine being a teenage girl in LA going around alone trying to meet people I mean not everyone's gonna be nice.

5:29Walk me through your signing your first record deal. What does that look like? Who helped you read that first contract? Oh, yeah. For my record label, I ended up with a really great lawyer at the time. Before that, I didn't have any lawyers, obviously. So I didn't really know. I mean, I got lucky. I'm going to say I got lucky with everyone I've been working with because they really helped me and saved me from a bad time when I was younger. And you moved to L.A. with your brother, right? Was he acting as your manager? How did he feel about everything? It was my whole family, not just my brother.

6:03And he really helped me connect with the right people after some bad trials on my own. Because I'm such like an independent person. I just don't want anyone to help me. And that including my brother. I'm just like, I want to meet the people on my own. I want to feel like, you know, I want to do this on my own. But that's where I got in trouble, you know, because I didn't have anyone there to protect me in those rooms. so then I just started getting even even closer with my family which was the best thing I could do and tell us about the process what led to you being signed was there a breakout moment or a single that you think really helped to put that in in place I started putting songs on SoundCloud and that's how I got noticed so Atlantic Records took notice and Mike Caron APG took notice and so we kind of did like a joint deal at the time and Sweet But Psycho was born after that and it took about a year for it to be released but before sweet but psycho blew up how many demos or songs had you written or recorded hundreds i mean i was in the studio twice two different studio sessions every single day i was in a boot camp i like to say i was in a complete boot camp for a year and a half almost before sweet but psycho came out actually and i was working my butt off i remember i was so tired i would spend nights crying because i was just like Like, I don't know.

7:22Like, I'm making so much different music. I don't know, like, what the right lane is. I was losing my mind. I mean, some people at the label were saying they liked some songs, and then they weren't, like, agreeing some other people. And so I was just like, I don't even like this. I want to do this type of music. But then they didn't like the type of music I wanted to do. So it was very confusing. And it was a really hard time as well. And then I cut my hair. I made it into the Max Cut. And I remember walking into a party. And everybody was just like, who's that girl? and that's when I remember my the head of my publishing company was like looking at me kind of like almost like hey I think you're ready now you created also not only a great record but an identity now that I can I could see you in a crowd room full of people and when Sweep It Psycho starts climbing the charts was there ever a moment internally where you were like wow my life has changed now oh yeah being in Europe for the first time I had never been out of the US.

8:18And it was just such a whirlwind and was going number one in so many different Nordic countries and then London and then every other country, Australia and Asia. And it took the world by storm. And I was just like, this is everything I've ever dreamt about. But it almost feels like I'm dreaming still, you know, because it doesn't feel real. It happens so fast. And here's a story I haven't told anyone, actually. I can't believe I was like this. um I hemorrhaged my vocal cords they exploded the day before I was supposed to travel to Europe for promo tour for Sweet But Psycho while Sweet But Psycho was number one all over the world my vocal cords exploded and the label didn't know no one knew I told them I had strep throat the flu anything to get out of this or give me two more weeks to go to Europe so for two weeks I slept like 14 hours a day I had like barely any food and and I went back to the doctor a week and a half later and the doctor is like I've never seen a miracle like this but your vocal cords just grew back brand new but baby vocal cords and he's like you have to be so careful because they can explode again and I was going on a promo tour gonna you know gonna promote and sing sweep it psycho all over the world so the first year singing sweep it psycho I look back at the videos and it's just like me learning how to sing again with new vocal cords and no one knows oh my god that's crazy and was there anything else on the tour that you had to deal with it was very difficult.

9:41I mean, I was terrified every time I opened my mouth to sing. I was so scared. I was having PTSD. I was having like, oh, my God, am I going to not be able to sing again? Because I mean, I couldn't even make one sound for a week. I don't even know how they grew back. It's like you're sacrificing all of yourself for this tour. For this moment. And then just no vocal cords. It's I mean, it was such a nightmare at the time. I almost couldn't believe it. My family, everybody, we were all crying in the room. were like, this is insane. Girl, someone gave you the evil eye. That is crazy. That's interesting you said that.

10:14I wear a little... Okay, good. I'm glad. I always joke. I'm like, you know, I have so many people who love me, but I also have some people who, you know, probably don't wish well upon me because things like that, I feel like don't just happen. It's an energy. I feel like people are all, we're made up of energy and I think we need to protect our energy. And I've gotten really good at that now.

10:46I want to walk back to when you made this decision to cut your hair into your iconic signature style and also the process behind changing your stage name to Ava Max. What did this rebrand look like? I mean, it felt like me. I always, growing up, want my cake and I want to have it and eat it too, right? So I feel like the haircut really resembles my personality. I love duality. I love having just having it all. You know, I believe everybody can have it all. I don't think you have to compromise in life. We live one life and I think we need to live it to its fullest. And I also think that's why I made it in music because I just I'm I'm never giving up.

11:25I'm consistent. And as much as I've been knocked down, I get back up. I don't think people remember your losses. They remember your wins. I think that's something to remember when you're not doing good or anyone not doing too well in their career. You're going to get back up. You just got to keep going. As cheesy as that sounds. Pop is always changing. How do you decide when to adapt to the trends or to try to start your own trend? To be honest, I really don't care about trends. As crazy as that sounds. Is that horrible? No, that's good. I don't care about trends. Maybe I should. Maybe I should not have the max cut, right?

12:04But in reality, you know, I'm just going to do it anyway. I fucking love it. Yeah, no, literally. Fuck it. Literally, fuck it. Hashtag fuck it. All your fuck it. Wait, and the other thing I was curious about is I had seen a lot of articles of people comparing you to other artists and things like that. Yeah, that's bullshit. Okay. Yeah. I'm obviously Ava. And I'm not AI. What the fuck? Like, how do you deal with stuff like that? I think it's weird. I'm just like, why do people still compare in 2025? Like, it's so dumb. And they compare women mostly, which I know a lot of people have talked about this, but it's true.

12:40I don't remember the last time they compared a guy. True. Okay. Should I have been born with balls or something? Oh my God. My South Carolina accent likes to come out sometimes. Okay, back to me. I want to also understand, what does the process behind making a hit single look like? I know nothing about music, so how do you come up with it? How do you record it? Every song is different. Some songs can get done in like two hours. Like Loving Myself, I wrote that in like two hours. Sweet But Psycho took a few months of rewriting and rewriting. Kings and Queens took almost a year of rewrites. I mean, we've had so many versions of Kings and Queens.

13:13And then the last version, everybody was like, damn, this sounds like a hit. Sounds insane. I can't stop replaying this. It makes me feel so good. And we're like, that's it. So you know, it's like a feeling you get. And I love making pop music. I feel like I'm just like constantly like tweaking the vocals up until the very few days before it's released. I'm insane about that stuff. How did you figure out what your signature sound was? I think around Not Your Barbie Girl right before Sweet But Psycho, I was like, wow, I love this punchy feeling. I love female empowerment. I love standing up for myself and I love how it makes my friends feel.

13:47I like how it makes me feel. And I knew female empowerment was a very important message I wanted to give out with my music. And then it started becoming a theme because and it was so natural because I come from a very strong woman, my mom and her mom and my dad's mom. And I feel like I was raised by strong women. So it was very easy for me to write about being strong and sticking up for yourself. You write your own songs, right? So how do you come up with the original inspiration? And then what's the process of writing like? I work with a ton of collaborators, different producers, different songwriters.

14:18And especially for this album, I got in the studio with a lot of new people, which was very hard for me. I was so emotional in the beginning because I was working with a few collaborators that were like, essentially they were my tribe, right? So like they were with me through the beginning until the end of the second album. And then all of a sudden, I mean, I mean, the internet knows what happened. And there was some drama and some betrayal and heartbreak. And I had to separate myself from these people. And I had to find my new tribe. And so there's a lot of trials and tribulations starting the third album.

15:00It was very emotional. It was hard for me to go even into a studio without crying because I felt so alone. But it made me stronger. And I think this happened for a reason because now I'm standing on my own two feet stronger than ever. And I'm very grateful for that. I'm sure that especially in the music industry, it's so hard to navigate and to know who you should trust and who your closest collaborators can be. What was the process like of finding the new people that you ended up producing this album with? A lot of them are my friends now, but I met them through management, through label. I really feel like it's a vibe, right?

15:33When you get in a studio, it needs to be there. That excitement, that conversation. Sometimes we talk for two hours before even writing a song and we start talking. Like, for instance, Loving Myself, I'm just like, at the time, I was just so alone. And I'm just like, I told them I'm just loving myself at the moment. And everybody was like, that's really what we should write about. And I looked at them. I'm like, it's a little weird to write about myself. But then I remembered. I'm like, wait, other people are going to be singing this about themselves. So this is such an important message. And it's one of my favorite songs now.

16:03It's one of my. I love that song. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I want to know, so many, especially young women, listen to your music. It's really empowering. I know I loved it when I was listening, especially when I first heard you on TikTok. What does the promotion cycle look like for songs like this? What do you think contributed to this huge rise of virality that you experienced after Sweet But Psycho? I think I've always made it about the music, always. And a lot of people are always saying, oh, but her brand sometimes doesn't connect with her music. And I think the reason why is because I have been a studio hermit for years.

16:37And I just focused on the the lyrics and the melodies and my performances. And that's it. I wasn't even thinking about, oh, the fame aspect, the the pap moments. It's like, I don't want all that. And I think it's apparent. People know that now they're just like, you know, I see comments all the time. They're just like, Ava doesn't even care to go out and promote her music. And I'm just like, I do. I want to perform. I love performing. I cannot wait to go on tour. I love doing interviews. I love telling people my story, but being seen constantly is not really my thing. And I think it's important for me to say that on here because I see a lot of comments about it.

17:16Sweet But Psycho was huge at the time. And the reason why I think it was huge was because I remember being on New Music Friday. It was the only pop song at the time. It was the only pop song. So it stood out on New Music Friday. and and and that goes to show how uniqueness and just originality is so important that was also around the same time that tiktok actually became such a big cultural phenomenon right with the pandemic and everything right after sweet but psycho and uh it was 2019 is when i was doing the big promo tour and then 2020 lockdown and then kings and queens came out who's laughing now kings and queens was number one on hot ac radio forever and i find that bizarre because everybody was in lockdown.

18:01I'm like, how did that happen? And so when that happened after Super Psycho, having another hit right after, I was like, wow, I just like, I'm so grateful that people can connect to the music I'm making. And I just kept making music like that, female empowerment records. And I think having music that's uplifting is so important in this day and age. I make sad songs occasionally, but I like more uplifting music. It makes me feel better too. And it sounds like what I'm hearing like for you making the music is is quite energizing right you have some of these moments where it is draining when people don't believe in you when you're in the studio until super late at night now it sounds like the music you're making fills you with energy but the being in public all the time having the demand of being the brand 24 7 and this kind of character you've built that sounds rather exhausting I know you've delayed your tour this year can you walk us through that decision what is it like just mentally to be on tour being on tour is one of the hardest things but most rewarding things and I think that's the best way I can describe it because I remember my last tour in 2023 I was so nervous it was my first tour but then it was you know I get there it's sold out everybody's just like singing back the lyrics that I wrote and like it makes me emotional to talk about because it's such an experience that I don't I don't I don't even know if there's words to say how I feel on stage it's just you're connected to so many people and you feel everyone's wavelength.

19:24And it's just, it's a beautiful connection with humans, you know, and I love that. And then to postpone the tour was a big decision. I didn't want to do it. I had to do it because I want to give a great show and I switched management mid album launch. And I just didn't feel like it was right to keep going with the tour when I knew it wasn't going to be the tour that my fans deserve. It is postponed. It's not canceled. It will happen. and I'm going to announce something before the end of the year. That's super exciting. Can you walk me through? I'm a complete novice. What does planning a tour look like?

20:00Oh my goodness. There's so many different parts. I mean, first of all, I love my team that I was with last tour. They're incredible. They're so much fun. I'm definitely going to tour with them again. Planning a tour. A lot of rehearsal. A month and a half of rehearsal. Sometimes two months. This next tour, I'll probably do like two months and a half. It's going to be a longer set. a lot of more songs new album and I think for me I I feel like you said this before we started it's like being an athlete right yeah and I just like kind of put two and two together recently because I was never a fitness person like I would just perform or like work out a little here and there I have started working out every single day and and it's because I want to give the greatest show next time I perform.

20:45And so I'm like, I'm taking it very serious this next tour because I postponed it, you know, and I feel so bad about that. And I know the fans were looking forward to it. So the tour coming up is going to be very, very exciting. Do you go to other artists shows? Do you get inspiration from like, oh, I like how they did this. I like that. Oh, my God, of course. I love Sabrina Carpenter. I love Billie Eilish's tour. I mean, there's just so many artists right now that are killing it female artists are killing it right now I have to say that

21:26for this podcast a lot of people listen who want to get inspiration from other people who've made it in an industry that they're really excited about and for you is there any specific advice you would give to other young women who want to break into singing, songwriting, the entertainment industry? Everyone has their own path. Don't ever compare. And I learned that later on in life. I wish I knew this earlier. Everyone has their own path. Everyone has a different destiny. Everyone has a different timing. You just have to be consistent and you have to know, you have to know your why. Why are you doing this?

21:57It can't just be for fame because then it won't work and it won't happen. It has to be for a purpose, a real bigger purpose, bigger than yourself almost. What does navigating management and a label look like? Walk us through the business side of the music industry. That's always tricky because I know a lot of people always ask me that. I, you know, I, I'm very music focused. I'm very music led. I love my team right now, but at the end of the day, I'm just like, I let people do, you know, their job. I'm not gonna, I don't try and interfere too much, but I do stay on top of everything. I am extremely hands-on.

22:32What does a team look like for a music artist? Management, label, publishing, lawyers, business management, I mean, tour manager, assistants. There is so much. It takes a village, and I'm not even exaggerating. It takes this entire country, it feels like. How do you go through the process of finding all of those different people? Like, how did you find your publicist, etc.? It's almost kismet because when you meet them, you know if it's right or wrong. I feel like I have a good sense of energy. So I've stayed with my lawyers from the beginning. A lot of people that I'm working with that are my core core, I've known for a long time.

23:11Just management, I recently switched. And I think change is good. It's a snake year, right? It's about shedding. It is about shedding this year. And you've said now for this next chapter, you're experimenting with a different sound. How many songs have you written? And what can fans expect? Yeah, so I'm already starting the fourth album. I know the third album just dropped, but I'm very excited. I'm starting it in September. And there may or may not be a deluxe for Don't Click Play. That's all I'm saying. I also want to know for social media specifically, is there a specific marketing strategy or distribution strategy that you would attribute to a lot of the success of your hit songs?

23:49You know, I don't even think about it like that. I put out a song now and I'm not thinking, oh it's I hope it goes number one I'm just saying like okay I really love this song and I'm gonna put it out and if it it resonates it resonates but if it doesn't I have a lot more music I make a lot of pop songs and they will always get music for me because I just that's like my bread and butter making pop music yeah now that totally makes sense because I was always really fascinated by Lil Nas X talking about all his hacks and his strategies for making his music go viral on TikTok So that's why I was curious because you've done over 40 billion streams on TikTok.

24:24Was there anything specifically you feel like you did that helped to propel the rise? When TikTok came out, I started posting right away because it was really fun and new and we all were really excited. Not Your Robert Girl did really big numbers even before Sweet But Psycho was out. So I almost already had a fan base before Sweet But Psycho through TikTok. it had over 1.4 billion uh billion or million i don't million videos i think yeah i i gotta check the numbers but something crazy and this was all before sweet but psycho not your barbie girl got so big because it's the interpolation of the original barbie girl so people already knew it um but i added you know an empowering twist to it i also that's one of my favorite songs to perform live how did you use tiktok so were you posting your own videos dancing to your song or how did you leverage the platform?

25:14I just was doing things like dancing, singing, just doing some of the trends when they first came out, like during lockdown. But I was having fun with it. I was again, I wasn't thinking about the numbers. You can have fun with it. When you don't have fun with it, people can feel it, I think. And it's just not just don't even just disappear. Like I did the last two months, I disappeared. Why did you decide to take a step back? I feel like I felt this overwhelming pressure and I didn't feel right at the moment posting. I didn't want to put out an energy I wasn't proud of. So I had to take a step back for a lot of reasons, my mental health, my sanity, and to recalibrate what I want to do next and really be strategic this time because I'm in a place in my life where I, again, I'm protecting my energy and I want to still keep bit about the music.

26:10I don't want to get distracted. And when there's too many opinions, you can get distracted no matter how strong you are. So that's normal. But I think you need to really have some alone time and meditate on it. Take some walks on your own. It's really healthy. For the next five years, if you were to look at, you know, where Ava Mack will be or where you want to take the brand, what do you envision? I'm envisioning performing for a lot, a lot of people. My dream is a stadium tour, of course. And just giving back. I want to, you know, open up some charities. I have so many things I want to do. I mean, I'm just scratching the surface.

26:43I am in the midst of writing, producing and directing a TV show at the moment that I haven't told anyone up until now. So I'm trying to like, you know, I get bored even if I have an hour on my hands. I'm like, OK, what else can I do? So now I'm I'm kind of just like opening up Pandora's box a little bit, having some fun. what advice would you give to other artists of how to find their signature brand sound style because I think you've done such an amazing job with that do what's comfortable to you even if it's weird like a lot of people think my haircut's weird I love it and look it might not be forever it might be here and there but I want to wear it when I want to wear it and that's up to me and it's up to you what you want to do I don't think you should listen to anyone about style that comes from the heart that comes from like who you truly are inside and and you don't have to go with trends all the time I mean trends are fun sometimes but I think you creating a trend and you being front and center of something is even more special and if it resonates with you it resonates with you you know and you've said you were often underestimated early on in your career was there a specific moment where someone said no to you where you feel like you were really able to prove them wrong oh all the time girl every day every day yeah no so I I've had it you know it hasn't been easy I'm gonna say that it hasn't been like on a silver platter nothing's been on a silver platter for me it's been so difficult I mean since I was a young kid my parents are Albanian immigrants so you can only imagine they didn't they didn't know anyone I mean I had they were just like hey girl you can sing really good we're we're gonna support you and I'm like but that also was priceless.