The TOP Lessons from Building a $185M Business (Sophia Kianni & Phoebe Gates)

0:00People overcomplicate business. There's really only a few things that matter. And number one is over the last 10 months, we've had a front row seat to the career playbooks of people at the very top of their fields. And we peeled back the curtain to share it all with you. At the same time, the burnout has now grown into a community of more than 200 ,000 subscribers. And you guys watched as we launched our startup FIA, which has now reached over a million users. And we just raised our$35 million Series A. So how do we get here? In this episode, we're going to break down the lessons that have stuck with us the most and what is to come.

0:37And we want to thank you all for watching, for subscribing, for being part of this journey with us. Let's get into it.

0:44Sophia:One of the biggest things I've actually learned from our revenue advisors, it's a lot harder for people to say no to you in person. And that goes both ways. So if someone's trying to negotiate with me in person and I don't want to say yes, I will always be like, thank you so much for this coffee chat. Let's move this over to email. I'll loop in my team. and then I can have this team say no. But always, if you want something from someone, getting together in person with them is really important because relationships are so, so critical towards sales, particularly if you're trying to sell a deal.

1:10And one of the things that actually I want to say was Lilly Singh said that I think about a lot is that people do business with people that they like. You cannot discount just being a nice, likable person. And I used to think that when I interfaced with people, especially if they were older than us and very sophisticated, if they were potentially abrasive, that it was just a function of we were maybe junior and inexperienced and it was just part of the game. But now I realize there is no avenue to doing business with people who are mean, who are rude, and who are not treating you in a way with respect where you deserve to be treated and that it's not really an excuse.

1:48And so that was a really good learning for me because I realized if I am choosing to work with someone every single day, if we're hiring someone, bringing them onto the team or working with an external party, you do kind of need to like the person. You absolutely do. You need to feel comfortable with them. And that is not something that you can fix. If someone is generally an abrasive person, that's something that's really hard to just make it disappear and go away like, okay,

2:12Sophia:you're not rude anymore. I 100 % agree. I think the one caveat to that is like, God bless my father. He is not a charismatic person. He was more of like an expert type leader. And I think there's a difference. People often equate like being socially awkward with being rude. And I feel like that is one of the greatest distinctions you can have in business is like, is this person really smart and socially awkward? And I need to figure out how to make them feel warm and how to make them feel comfortable so that they can be friendly with me. But I feel like there's, that's the biggest differences I've had to make is like, okay, is this person just abrasive?

2:41Sophia:I'm not going to work with them. Or is this person actually smart and socially awkward? And now it's on me as like more of the sales person who's trying to bring them in for a role, who's trying to build a relationship to figure out what actually activates that person, what actually makes them excited. And that's actually something one of our advisors said to us is that one of the most important things you can do when you're vetting whether or not you want to work with someone is you need to screen for niceness, which I had never really thought about before. But he said, for example, giving people potential opportunities where a conflict could arise or giving them a conflict to think about and then asking how they would react is really important so that you can actually just generally screen for, is this a person who is easy to get along with or is this someone who, if put in a hard situation, is going to become destructive?

3:28And Gary Vee actually said something really interesting and the same, where he said, I don't care how talented someone is. If I don't think they're a good person, I will never work with them. And that has been really helpful for me because there's definitely been a ton of people that we've met where I think they're a genius. They're so smart. But when I start digging a little further, there starts to be a couple of things that make me think that they would potentially be very difficult to interface with and get along with. And that's a deal breaker. And one bad apple spoils an entire basket. And that's something that I realized, too, with team building and culture is so important.

4:05When you have one person who is negative energy, it brings the whole room down. And so that's honestly something I think we've done really well is we've brought in a couple of people who are just such high energy, vibrant people to be around. And it has made the entire energy of our office so much better because people want to be around those people. People like that are magnets for other incredible high energy, high IQ, high agency people. And so I think it's really important to think about the type of atmosphere that you're trying to cultivate. And for us, it's been a huge learning. We don't only want the smartest people.

4:38We want people who are exceptionally smart and are really nice and actually want to work in teams.

4:44Sophia:And particularly also people who are geniuses with an ego who are hard to work with. I think they're the most dangerous kind of people possible. Yeah, because they're impossible to work with.

4:58Sophia:I'll also never forget we had a delightful intern. And I was when this happened, I was so annoyed. and then later I was like oh that was one of the best things that happened to our company this week and it made everyone so much more energized she got a mariachi band to interrupt our meeting to celebrate like at the time we reached what like 500 ,000 downloads which as we release this super exciting we're over a million today we couldn't be more grateful for the community but like I remember being in the moment I was like come on like I have stuff to do why is a freaking mariachi band here but then the rest of the week the entire team was like oh that was the best thing ever and I realized like stuff like that having someone who's delightful like she she didn't have to do that having that kind of energy in the office is so important because otherwise we'd all spend more time with our significant others like let's be honest if you don't like the people you're working with you're not going to stay at the office till late you're not going to laugh about that stupid contract that you got served up or or what we're going to say to this email like it has to be that you're able to do like side handshakes and laugh at the people you're working with I also think direct feedback from people like I respect like Margot our producer being like Phoebe come on or you being like, hey, Phoebe, you're in a grumpy mood.

5:59Sophia:That helps me to then adapt. And oftentimes, honestly, for me, it's like I'll go to the bathroom and I'll take like two minutes to myself and be like, okay, did I eat lunch today? Am I grumpy? Or just sit there and think for a second and then come back and be like, let's do this thing. Sometimes I'll go to the bathroom, put on a little mascara, feel better about myself, brush out my hair, I'm good to go. Let's do another eight hours. Let's run. Let's ride at dawn. Wait, that's low-key what I started doing is I now have a little makeup bag that I bring to the office. And then if I really feel super funky and out of it, then I'll just go to the bathroom, do a little mascara, fix my eyebrows.

6:32And all of a sudden, I am 10 times happier and nicer to be around. And I think it's interesting because it's kind of intertwined to what Cody Sanchez was telling us, where the women who actually put on makeup and tend to their appearance actually make 30 % more than people who don't. What a messed up society we live in. It's interesting because I think it's two things. Number one, sure, people are more predisposed to take you seriously and to like you if you look a certain way and if you look really put together, because I think that's a signal for how you take care of yourself. But also, number two, you radiate differently when you genuinely feel confident.

7:07And one of the best ways to feel confident is by putting on nice clothes, doing your makeup, doing your hair, and then engaging with people in a way where they can tell that you feel confident in yourself. And it's hard to do that if you feel like a slob and you're in sweatpants. I definitely feel that way. I feel way more confident when I've put myself together and I have like a really important meeting or something like that. But I think it's also important to what I took away from a lot of people have said stuff like that is that it depends on the type of work that you're doing. If I'm just sitting at my computer all day and I'm working on a really big project and I'm not talking to anyone, having my makeup on actually distracts me because I want to go talk to people because I look amazing.

7:43But like if I just need to sit down and crunch a spreadsheet or something like that, I'm going to be in my sweatpants. I'm going to be in a bun and I'm going to have my AirPods in and I'm going to be grungy and not talking to people and I'm going to be up until 2 a.m. finishing what I need to do. If I'm taking meetings, if I'm interviewing people, I need to look and feel good because that's how they're going to perceive me. And so for days like that, 100%, I'm going to put on a great outfit. I'm going to do my hair and makeup and I know it's going to have ROI for me. So I think I always think about it through the lens of what am I doing and what is my goal?

8:13If my goal is to be perceived in a specific way and I'm engaging with people, I better look amazing. And if I'm not, I'm not going to waste my time doing my hair and makeup if all I'm doing is kind of sitting on my computer.

8:24Sophia:I agree with that. And I also think, I mean, we live in a very sexist society. I mean, the reality is like a lot of business high up positions, you know, when we look at the Fortune 500 companies, the CEO are men. And the reality is like being attractive gives you a head start in business. And I think that's why it's also part of it. Yes, it's feeling confident. Yes, that might help you do sales better. But the reality is that like we do live in a sexist world and being attractive will move you forward. And so it's also funny because all the time we'll be on calls like investors and stuff and they're like, well, how do you balance like being an influencer and doing the podcast plus business?

8:58It's like, you don't get it, do you?

9:00Sophia:Like we are up early in the morning. We are at the office until midnight. We record a podcast one day a month and we bang out like seven podcasts. Do you think I look, do you think I put on mascara and do my hair like this every day? no I do it today because I don't want them to comment that you know I look ratchet which they're gonna do anyways they're gonna say we look too old but like the reality is like even now when we put on makeup our team's like oh you're recording today or oh you're doing a marketing thing and I think that's a funny thing is there's it's we penalize women on both ends if you're too attractive and forward-facing it's oh how do you actually do actual business but if you're not attractive then you get demoted and you're not put in a forward-facing position because you're not seen as like professional and put together so I I 100 % agree with you like look good feel good like things end up well for you but I also think there's a huge layer of sexism there because we're not docking like the disheveled male engineer for not you know brushing his hair or doing his comb over perfectly generally a piece of advice that I have for other women is learning how to get ready in a very short period of time is it is genuine no because I have that piece of advice for you She told me the other day she was ready for something.

10:07She goes, the Mona Lisa wasn't created

10:10Sophia:in a day. No, I mean, okay. I think to walk it back, there's certain things, right? If you're doing a photo shoot, that's going to be on the front page of the news. Definitely take your time, take an hour to get ready. You should look good and feel good. But something that is a really important skill that I genuinely do think that women should learn is how to get ready in a way where it can be part of your routine very quickly and in a way where you feel good. So something that I realized for myself is that I hate the indecision period of not knowing what I'm going to wear. It causes a lot of cognitive friction for me and then it makes me overthink and then not know what I'm going to do.

10:45And that's why Steve Jobs had his turtlenecks, the black turtlenecks. That's why a lot of CEOs say that they never spend a second thinking about what they're going to wear. They have a uniform and the same thing is true when it comes to makeup and just generally. So that's something that I started realizing for myself is that I now have a bunch of pairs of jeans and I have a bunch of sweaters. And so I felt like that was a uniform I felt good in. And then for doing my makeup, I realized I just need to do my mascara, my concealer, and my tight eyeliner. And I feel great. That's all I need to do for my MVP of feeling good.

11:16Anyway, I was just going to say that that's a little piece of advice that I would have for the girlies is figure out your uniform, figure out your hair and makeup that makes you feel good. And in a way that is super fast, so you don't need to think about it. Now I can just do my eyeliner in two seconds. It makes me feel amazing. It's the core thing in my makeup routine that I really care about.

11:33Sophia:Is this a good time to tell the viewers that we've launched a beauty state on Fia? So as you're shopping, it shows you how long the item is going to last you, if the material quality is, if the ingredient quality is actually good. Is it sustainable? Is it tested on animals? Is it female founded? How much does it actually have in it compared to other products in terms of prices? Like, okay, if you get the larger one fluid ounces is actually a discount. We will be dropping Sophia's makeup edit in the app. But I agree. The other thing is like reducing cognitive load. One thing that's actually really shifted my mindset is thinking not about like, do I want to do this right now?

12:06Sophia:But thinking about my future self. Like I think of my future self and how I can be kind to my future self. So for example, like on Sundays, I don't want to pick out my outfits for the week. I will spend five minutes doing it, just outlaying them. Work pants, sweater top, like these heels I wear all the time. Okay, great. Put those five outfits out. now that's really kind to my future self because when I wake up boom I'll grab that I'll put it on I don't even have to think about it I love that

12:34so we've talked a lot about what we're not going to spend our time on what do you want to spend

12:39Sophia:your time on this year I'd say the two things I really want to spend my brain power on is talking to customers and learning how they shop what they're interested in showing them the new designs we're putting together and getting actual feedback taking harsh criticism and then number two is just growing the team is the two things I'm most focused on. Oh, and being egoless to remove myself from processes. I see Sophia smiling there because a lot of times I'm like, can I just do our taxes? Can I just do it? And she's like, this is not something you should do. But personally, me and my childhood boyfriend got back together.

13:06Sophia:I'm stoked about that. I'm really excited to spend more time. We're making a list of our favorite burgers in New York City, and we have a pretty intensive ranking list going. Some more double dates with Sophia and her boyfriend. The reason I'm really glad you brought that up too is that it's so obvious the happiest people are the people who are the most productive that's what people say a lot of if your employees are happy that's when they're going to do their best work the same is a hundred percent true for us too where i can tell right when you're in a relationship where you're happy you've just had an amazing time spending time with people that you love and you come to work you are so clearly happy energized refreshed and it it reflects on all the people around you and that's something that I definitely realized is something I want to prioritize this year that I definitely did not always do a really good job of is when I invest in my personal relationships and the personal relationships in my life are really strong and healthy I'm showing up as my best self every single day and so that is something I do think because everyone listening and ourselves included are so career focused and so career motivated it becomes really easy to forget that the other part of your life, which is having good relationships with your friends, family, loved ones, all of that really impacts the way that you show up and the way that you treat people that you work with.

14:25Sophia:I feel like one thing that people don't realize is valuing friendships with other women is the biggest thing. I honestly think having strong, my relationship, I'm obsessed. I mean, having someone who truly knows you since childhood can call you on your faults and your mistakes, but remind you that you're doing well and be there and be supporting you in every single thing you do is amazing. But also having those female friendships has been so critical for me. And I think people forget, I think one thing that's really moved the needle for me in 2025, which I never thought I would say this or that this would be a cue, is having relationships with women who are older than me because they've seen it.

14:57I do think that making sure that outside of work, you have these strong female relationships, you have good relationships generally, you'll learn so much from them that it will have such a huge impact on your life.

15:07Sophia:Do you guys want us to do an episode on relationships too? I'm down to get into it. Sophia, what highlight from 2025 and what you're looking forward to for 2026? The biggest highlight for me for 2025 was obviously just the fact that these two things that were an idea in our minds that were basically just sketches on paper, that they became real full-fledged companies and outward facing things. I mean, that was the only thing I cared about. It was so funny because it was the first time in my life that I only had two goals. And my only two goals were launch our podcast, launch our company, period, zero, nothing else.

15:37And obviously we did those two things. And I think to a certain degree of success, which is incredible. I don't want to do and add another goal onto those two existing goals. But what I want to do is basically for 2026, my word of the year is basically I want to refactor. So a lot of the stuff that worked when you're getting something zero to one and getting something off the ground doesn't work at scale. Or if it works at scale, it's really, really inefficient. So I want to think in a larger framework instead of the way that I feel like I was thinking in 2025, which was very much go, go, go every week, every sprint, every little thing I need to be super on top of.

16:14I want to think a little bit more high level so I make the right choices and prioritize my time in the same way.

16:20Sophia:guys if you're watching please go download FIA we've launched a lot of new things in the app you'll see the first version of the personalized shopping feed for you um you will find that we have collections editorials our search has really improved and as you're shopping of course now it's not only going to tell you how much value that item will hold and whether it exists second hand but what the reviews are on that item what the material quality is what the returns and shipping status is FIA has grown a lot we're not only your shopping assistant in the browser but we're now moving into discovery so please download FIA follow along our journey and let us know what features you like versus what you don't.

16:51Sophia:See you next time, burnouts.