Reflections on the Journey to Chief Marketing Officer with Jim Stengel

0:00Hi, everyone. It's Jim. I have Matt Spiegel of TransUnion with me. Matt, I want to start with what do you love about your job? Yeah, it's a great question, Jim. You know what? I love the fact that I get to be out at events and conferences and working with clients to really think about how marketers solve problems that matter at scale. The job of a marketer is as challenging as ever, and we get to do some interesting things to make their job easier. When you work with a client, where do you get the most satisfaction? You know what? I think seeing ideas come to reality. We ultimately are an enable of great marketing.

0:28So we don't do creative. We don't do media planning. We provide the data, the identity insights, the measurement tools that make great marketing possible. So when we get to see the end product, sometimes later, it's really cool to see. Well, super to have you here. Super to be a partner. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you, Jim. So if you want to turn data into understanding and understanding into growth, visit transunion.com slash clarity. What if the smartest marketing play is not to move forward, but to zoom out. Deloitte believes the most powerful move a CMO can make is to look beyond the next step and see the broader perspective.

1:00That's what the Deloitte CMO program is for, a place to gain fresh perspective and connect with leaders who've stood where you stand. Together, Deloitte will help you see the bigger picture so your next move isn't just fast, but right. Learn more about the CMO program at cmo.deloitte.com. Hi, everyone. It's Jim. I'm here with Matt Spiegel, EVP of True Audience Growth Strategy at TransUnion. Matt, you've spent your career helping marketers understand people through data, and that's harder and more important now than ever. It really is, Jim. There's really just so much information out there, and unfortunately, it's often disconnected.

1:35Marketers typically see fragments, maybe a purchase here or a click there, but what they really need is clarity, true full picture of who their customers are, and ultimately how to reach them. Well, tell me how your solution strategy comes in and helps CMOs and their teams bring clarity to chaos. Well, Jim, we ultimately do that with a 360 view of the customer. And so it's about ultimately combining data, truly trusted data, identity resolution, which is a deep analytical problem, and measurement that actually helps understand performance. So ultimately, we work hard to help marketers move faster, to deepen their insights, and to ultimately make every dollar work harder.

2:11We believe strongly that when you truly understand your audience, you can build a real brand and real relationships with customers that last. Where were you when I was a CMO? I don't know how to answer that. Learn more at transunion.com slash clarity. That's transunion.com slash clarity. I want you to do a little self-reflection. Do you really want this role? I mean, you feel it seminally that this is right for you. Do you have some apprehension about it? I did, which we'll talk about in a minute. And then answer the question I asked Natalia. Why do you feel this is a perfect fit, that you will be in your flow?

2:46And try to make that explicit. And then let's chat about it. Hi, I'm Jim Stengel, and I help major brands find their purpose and activate it, and the profits follow. For seven years, I was the global marketing officer for Procter & Gamble, where I oversaw the marketing of hundreds of brands. You may not know it, but the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of all of your favorite brands are trying to connect you with your favorite products and services through purpose. And on this show, I delve into how they do it. Today's episode is something a little different. We return to the beautiful Miraval Berkshires, a place known for reflection, intention and growth.

3:26And that spirit is exactly what this conversation is all about. My own reflections on the journey to being a chief marketing officer. A few weeks ago, we welcomed four of the next generation of marketing leaders for a roundtable discussion. We did that in person at a summit in the Berkshire sponsored by the Vayner Agency. VaynerMedia's founder and CEO, Gary Vaynerchuk, actually encouraged me to start this podcast almost six years ago. Well, this presentation you're about to hear kicked off that summit. Record it live with active participation from the audience with a real in-the-room sound. I asked each of them and now you listeners, why do you want to be a CMO?

4:04We each have our own journey, but today I'll take you through mine, including an internal viral campaign within P &G that ultimately led to me being offered the role. Then I walk us through my version of the CMO to-do list, 10 key characteristics to help you ascend the ladder. So whether you're aspiring to the CMO seat, just starting your marketing journey, or simply curious about how leaders grow, this one's for you. Let's jump in. Well, good morning, everyone. Funny story about Gary and myself. We're kind of different people, right? In a good way. I was at P &G for 25 years, but every two years they have an alumni reunion.

4:41It's the biggest alumni base, active alumni base in the world, bigger than Goldman Sachs. And this year is Berlin, so it's happening right before Cannes, so I'm going to go to that. But I was with, this was in Cincinnati, actually, and it was like 2 ,000 people who come to this. So Gary was on stage. I was following him. So I was backstage, and he's on the stage with all these ex-PNG people swearing at them and yelling at them and so on. And then I come on and do my thing, and Gary grabs me after we were together, and he said, we're terrific together. He said, we need to do more. So then he calls me a couple days later and says, we should do a podcast.

5:18And so I put him off for, I don't know, two years. So I said, I can't be tied down to that. I don't want to do it. And he kept calling me. And he said, listen, we'll take care of everything. You just show up and be yourself. So we did the first one on May 1st, 2019 in Hudson Yards with Kristen Lemkow, J.P. Morgan Chase. Who's J.P. Morgan Chase? Yeah. She was my first guest. And we did it in person. The chemistry was so amazing. She made it so easy for me. And it was so fun. And then we did Pedro Ayer from AB InBev. Then we did Scott Galloway. And that's five and a half years later. I say this a lot.

5:56I'm very thankful to Gary for his vision and his out-of-the-box thinking. And to put us together, I got to Andrea that way and Avery and the whole team at Vayner. So the journey to being a CMO, I looked at all of your bios, the companies you're from, and it's an amazing group of people at a really interesting time in your careers. So good for you for doing this. And as I said, try to make an objective to understand a bit about each person in this room, what they're dealing with and what drives them. And you will hold that with you and it will inspire you. And one reason I do the podcast every week is all the things you're saying.

6:38I'm uplifted. I'm inspired. I'm excited. I'm proud to be in the industry. And that's what you have a chance to do in a very concentrated way. And I do want to say kudos to your bosses for supporting you to come here. And so be sure when you go back, you thank them and you debrief with them, well, this is fresh. Because that will be just very, very, very special. And one reason I'm saying this, your bosses believe in you because they sent you here and other things I'm sure they do with you. But this is a number from Norm Houston at Russell Randall. Does anyone know Norm? He's a headhunter and a good one.

7:17Was a practitioner, decided to go into leadership consulting. And I work with him sort of once a year on a program like this. 80 % of CMO openings in the last year were filled by outsiders. So the fact your bosses sent you here is a vote of confidence that you're a player and you have potential. and we're investing in you and we believe in you. That is a tremendous statement. And that is, I think, a very shocking number. So I want to start by setting the context for the journey to be a CMO with some reflection from a recent guest on the podcast, Natalia Ball, the chief growth officer for Mars Pet Care, which is$30 billion business.

7:57It's big. 60 % of Mars revenue is in pet care. We think of them as M &M snack company, but this is their horse. And it's growing like mad. So I had a really interesting conversation with her. And as I was thinking about my remarks that in our discussion, she, I asked her a question. I can't even remember what I asked her or something, but she came back to me. She said, I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about when I first met you. So this is where this clip begins is when she met me and she describes it pretty well herself. I was a relatively new CMO when she met me. So let's just listen to her and reflect.

8:32You came to Venezuela to Caracas, which was where the P &G headquarters were for Latin America back in that time. And I am from Venezuela, so that's where I started my career at P &G. And when you came, we had a big brand building event with awards. And you actually gave me an award for marketer of the year or something like that. I don't remember exactly what it was. But what I do remember when you came was I said, he's who I want to be when I grow up. And that was the first time I decided I wanted to be CMO. And here I am 25 years later talking to you. So this is a big moment for me, Jim. I'm really excited about talking to you today because I remember very clearly that week when you came down to Caracas and talked to us.

9:15Oh, I love that story. Thank you, Natalia. That's very moving. I didn't expect this. It didn't come up in my prep for you. What about that moment made you think, wow, I want to be in that role someday? What was it? Well, I mean, I felt you were so in touch with consumers. You were talking about Latin American consumers as if you were in their dining rooms and their living rooms. And also the love that you showed for our brands. It was something that was really inspiring to me. And in general, you were very positive about the role that we as marketeers were playing in driving growth for the company and building capabilities for the future.

9:52And so I was very inspired by that. And that's when I said, I want to be CMO. I want to build brands. I want to drive pros. I mean, it was very nice to hear that for myself. But what's the lesson in that? I had no idea. Right. I don't remember that. But in the moment, I had an impact on her and how she remembers it. They're watching you. They're watching all of your moves, how you spend your time, what you talk about. I happened on that visit, because I always did, I went into consumers' homes before I came to meet the organization. So I went into three or four households, low-income consumers, understand the role of brands, the role of advertising, the role of marketing.

10:30And so she picked up all of that. So what you say and what you do is closely watched today, and even more so, the higher you go. But just remember that every day you have the potential to do that, which is why we're in this business. It's all about elevating people, whether they're consumers or your employees. I'm going to play one more clip from her because I asked her a question I'm going to ask you in a minute. You said a few minutes ago that you're in your perfect job. What about this job is so perfect for you? We all know when we're in a perfect job. I felt the same way when I was at Pia G's CMO.

11:04But what is it about, describe the experience and why this is perfect for you. I would say it's two things. Number one, the blend of challenges that I deal with every day are completely different. So on the one hand, obviously, we're talking about brand experiences, brand building, creativity. I love that. The fact that I get to still work on those things. I'm really good at it and I love it. Innovation is another one. But at the same time, we are working on, for example, strategic revenue management, connected commerce, building sales capabilities. how do we approach insight generations, portfolio strategies.

11:39So the breadth of challenges that I get to work on on any given day is super energizing for me. The combination of different challenges, working with the business on creating long-term growth plans, where do we put our resources, and working with the leadership team in general. But then the second thing I would say is that I think I'm learning so much in this job. I love when I am in a job where I can add a lot of value to the business. So I know that I add value and I bring a lot, but I also get value from the business. And I feel here, I'm striking that perfect balance because every day I learn something new.

12:15And actually I capture some of those things in a special diary that I have. What did I learn today? And I am surprised of how much every day I'm able to capture there, either because I work with external partners on questions that I have, and I'm lucky to partner with consultancies, with agencies with peers and I get a lot of external inspiration that I really appreciate or just working on the challenges that we have and we don't know how to crack is really energizing because you learn a new approach. So I think the combination of those two breaths of experiences as well as learning is what makes this my dream job.

12:52So, well, that's what I wanted to set the context for that. I want to talk about really three things today. Why you want to be a CMO? Pretty fundamental question. You heard why she wants to be one or is enjoying being one. My unexpected journey to being a CMO wasn't in the cards, wasn't on my career plan, which is interesting, but I still wound up in it. So I want to tell that story a bit. And then to sort of give you a to-do list, right, to walk out. So that's what we're going to do today in the time we have remaining. And the first one is, so once a year for the last 10 years or so, I go to a program with Deloitte in Westlake, Texas at their university.

13:31Amazing training center, residential. And we do about a three-day residential program, not unlike this, on development of CMOs. And it's generally people who are in the seat already. And it's a fabulous program. Vayner has been out to help with this. We've recorded some shows out there. But last year, I was looking at the research they do on the people who come. And it's about 40 CMOs in different industries. And I was combing through the research and they do a good job of surveying them and having, you know, Zooms with them. And I saw a number there that 50 % of the people weren't sure they wanted to be in that role.

14:08What? So we're having a CMO development program with people who are in the chair and half of them aren't sure they want to be there. So of course I opened my remarks with them about what the hell is going on in the room. And that led to really interesting places. So I kind of want to start there with you. And I want you to do a little self-reflection. Do you really want this role? I mean, you feel it seminally that this is right for you. Do you have some apprehension about it? I did, which we'll talk about in a minute. And then answer the question I asked Natalia. Why do you feel this is a perfect fit, that you will be in your flow?

14:46And try to make that explicit. it. And then let's chat about it. Anyone want to share, anyone apprehensive about the role? Got a lot of nods. Why are you apprehensive about it? I have spent the last decade working for arguably the best CMO in the industry. And that is? Greg Lyons, who is a titan. He is an instinctual marketer. He is in the people business. And I've benefited from his leadership and coaching and tough love for a long time. And so any apprehension that I have is just seeing the qualities that are required for people to be effective in our organizations. It's not functional marketing.

15:30It's matrixed negotiation. It is you standing as the first and last line of defense between the consumer's needs and the rest of the company's demands. And so what I've seen him do, and it sounds like you've had a pretty up-close seat, is he sort of had three things and I wrote them down. And what I realized is the role of the CMO is to help the organization outthink things that don't seem like they're things that you can outthink. And I watched him over a generation form really high-quality relationships and use that to move the agenda forward. And some days it felt like forward and some days it felt like backward.

16:11But over the long arc, we are bending and rotating towards the right thing for the business and for people. The second thing I saw him do was have really new and novel, high quality ideas. He didn't just turn up and critique other people's ideas. He had a really strong perspective on things that helped the entire organization move forward with pace. And then I watched him and him built a team around him who was able to relentlessly execute even when it was hard and to run the race at pace even when the distance was unknown. And like, hey, gosh. So if I feel when I look at the CMO chair that those are really big shoes to walk in, I feel my lived experience tells me like it's a stamina.

16:57It's a mental stamina and fortitude that's required for departments of 800 people to do what they need to do in their jobs. Well, he's an amazing role model. Always weird to follow someone like that, but it's also, you have to be yourself, take what you can from them, but then be yourself in the job. Anyone else have apprehension? Tell me what company you're with. I'm with H &R Block. Oh yeah? Okay, good. I think it has more to do with me than the role, but I feel like 10 years ago, I didn't think I'd be in the US. So that's, you know, that happened. I didn't think I would get an MBA. That happened.

17:34I happened to find my way into marketing. So that was by chance. I'm here because I love my boss, Jill Kress. She's a very inspiring leader. And I think, you know, my understanding of marketing has shifted so much under her leadership that that's what made me stay for as long as I did for the last six years within marketing. I'm an empath and so I love the opportunity to deeply empathize with people who are our clients at scale and I think that is something that modern marketing allows you to do to empathize at scale to build connections at scale so it is that aspect of marketing that I'm really passionate about but marketing is a lot more than that and so you know that's where the apprehension comes in that How do you really sort of at scale understand all the things that make up modern marketing today?

18:32But what I feel really good about is at the center of it, at the heart of it, is empathizing with the client. And I feel like that's where my energy is, my passion is. That's the part I'm really confident in. It's the everything else that I feel like how do you sort of scale and learn and grow and moments and opportunities like this allow you to do that. That's so important. That's a fundamental. If you enjoy getting close to clients, understanding them, empathizing with them, bringing that back into the company, you're half the way there.

19:23network of CMOs is designed to help you zoom out and gain fresh perspective. Deloitte will help you see the bigger picture together. Learn more about the CMO program at cmo.deloitte.com.

19:39So let's move to the other one. Those of you, I mean, I assume because you're in the room, you have an inkling that you want to this job with apprehension. What about this role is a a great fit for you? Anything that you could share with the group that will be helpful at large? Yes. One of the things that I really love about marketing, particularly direct consumer marketing, is finding that right balance between magic and logic, between the art and the science. And I just think it is such an enduring challenge, but one that is endlessly interesting. And where I've seen it go awry is when the pendulum swings one way or the other, and it's about creating that balance.

20:16And so I think that's super, super exciting that you have to be that agile, that you have to have that right blend of skills across that spectrum of magic and logic. So I think it's something that always keeps you on your toes and forces you to continually learn and to re-evaluate your position on things. Yeah, I love that. And you're with? I'm with Ralph Lauren. Okay. Oh, great. Super, super. Thank you. Anyone else on Perfect Fit? I find a resistible calling in a duality of the challenge of the role. On one hand, we've been talking about change, how it's fast, I have no idea what the future is going to hold, but something that I believe to be true is that great brands, hyper relevant with consumer, will always thrive in the future, are going to be a key to business success.

20:57But opposite to that, what I keep finding is that business have this temptation to see marketing as a cost center as opposed to a business driver. Navigating that duality is something that I think is going to be critical for me to learn. That's why I'm attracted to the role. Yeah, absolutely. That's a key issue. I hope you get some insights coming out of here on that issue. So it's interesting because I don't really give this a lot of thought, to be honest, like in my day job. But even just doing this two-minute exercise, actually very clear to me that this is what I want to do. And I immediately broke it down in who, why, and what.

21:33Like who I am is like, I'm a generalist. So I like touching a little bit of everything, influencing everything without having to be an expert in everything. In the why, it's like, ultimately, I want to leave some kind of legacy. I know that's a big word, but, you know, just influencing culture both internally and externally through the power of brands. And then the what is just what you do in the day-to-day. I think it's just fun what we do. Strategy, you know, the brands, conceptual thinking, and then just the people. I like the profile of marketeers, the people I work with, people in this room here.

22:07That's beautiful. And the last point, I hear that a lot on the show. So people saying, if we're not enjoying our work, fun, exuberant, exciting, how do we expect the organization to be excited about it? And how do we expect the people outside the company to be excited about it? I mean, Greg talks about this. You know, are you finding joy in your work? Are you finding joy in the project you're working on? Because if you're not, it's not going to work. You know, you're behind on a critical path or something. that's one thing, but the essence of what you're working on, if you don't think it's going to make some difference and bringing a smile to someone's face, improving someone's life, making life easier for somebody, you're wasting your time.

22:49And I think keeping that standard and checking with your organization, are you jazzed with what you're working on? Are you getting energy from it? And if half of them say no, wow, what a waste of human capital and financial capital. I just wanted to add a little bit of like the why now conversation, building on your why. I think we're at this interesting inflection point where everyone talks about like, oh, the CMO tenure is shrinking. That is actually fake news. I was reading this really interesting piece. I think it was by True Search talking about the average CMO tenure is actually increasing to 3.4 years.

23:23And also that for the first time, like we're seeing more and more CMOs move into the CEO role. I know this was the case. H &R Block. Yep, exactly. H &R Block at 2B, at many amazing and companies, I think that the role of CMO to sort of, you know, prove the business case for marketing is actually becoming more and more clear. We know from every business case study ever that brand is the moat that drives profitability and all that fun stuff. And I think we're starting to see that role transition into like a CEO role more and more. And the why now to me is incredibly exciting for our industry. And another thing I would add to that, the times we're living in, right?

23:59One thing is certain, inflation. It was happening before the tariffs. No one's arguing. Prices are going to go up. What's important in an inflationary environment? Brands. Great brands give you pricing flexibility. That's the financial value of a brand. And we don't talk about that enough. Even companies, you know, why does Procter & Gamble or why are they able to employ people at a lower cost? Because the reputation of the company. They go to the capital markets. They get favorable treatment because the reputation of the company. So the power of brand is in your flexibility to deal with pricing.

24:36Now you've got to be careful, value equation, consumers, you can't, but pricing flexibility is going to be really, really powerful to people growing their earnings and growing their revenue in the next several years. So the time is now. Anyone else on why this is right for you, why you feel? I'm at Meta, and I agree with what everyone said in terms of like, I mean, I'm really, I've always, I've been in this business for over almost 25 years. And I will say that I still have love for building great brands that connect deeply with culture. I think the thing that I've grown to really enjoy as I've matured in my career is also bringing up teams.