A tribute to Diogo Jota

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1:06Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. We start this show with news of the tragic death of Liverpool forward Diogo Jota. The 28-year-old and his brother Andre Silva died on Thursday morning in Spain following a car accident. Jota had got married just a few days earlier. Liverpool issued a short statement saying how devastated they were and the rest of the football world has been expressing their sadness at the news. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me on today's show, we have the chief correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, and the former footballer, Gregor Robertson.

1:39Martin, I'll start with you. Just your thoughts on this devastating news. Yes, it's a terrible tragedy. A club that has suffered too much tragedy, really. but this is a unique one really because it cuts to the heart of the dressing room and everything like that.

2:04You just imagine the effect when they return next week probably for pre-season training. Players have pegs, they have lockers, they have you know a place they sit in the uh in the dressing room with their number with a name um obviously that will all be removed just just that being removed is um it's a sight in itself you you can't imagine uh you can imagine the player's eyes just being drawn to, you know, places where the man used to sit and, you know, memories they've all got of him and not being too moulding about this. But when people talk about football clubs as families and everything, obviously, you know, when you are a team by the very nature of that word, you share things.

3:03And there is an exceptional closeness, particularly, you know, Liverpool are a successful team. You know, you've gone through that whole band of brothers thing last season. And, you know, the effects on the people around him at the club will be enormous. And that's before you get into the actual family tragedy, the human tragedy. There's a mother and a father, Isabel and Joaquim, I believe it is. And they've lost two sons. Andre Silva is not as famous around the world as Diogo Jota. But they've lost two sons, 25 and 28. I mean, I've got sons around the same age myself. And you just look at that and the devastation in that family.

3:56His young wife, newlywed, their three children. It's just unbearable sadness, really, around this. Gregor your thoughts particularly Martin you know saying there quite rightly about football clubs as a family and the teammate aspect as having been a former player yourself

4:17Gregor Robertson: yeah well I mean I can't imagine what that'll feel like for his teammates despite having been in a dressing room myself because this is so so rare and unique and heartbreaking and you've seen the kind of outpouring of grief from former teammates and Wolves as a football club where he was a huge success as well I remember him coming over and joining them when they were in the championship along with Ruben Neves and Elder Costa and players like that and it was a real kind of mark of a new beginning for Wolves and he's the one who's been the greatest success out of all of them he was outstanding for Wolves he was so hardy one of the enduring memories of him as a player is his sort of bravery and strength and along with all the skill and the speed and the fluidity and movement he was really brave

5:19Gregor Robertson: but just it is very hard to it's the human tragedy of it and the grief this family must be experiencing right now is as I say absolutely unimaginable but it is there have been moments as you soak this in over the last few hours where you see the kind of the impact he had on so many people and particularly the city of Liverpool you see the joy of the celebrations when they won the Premier League what was it I think 38 days ago the song they had for him and there was a video of someone singing that on the stage and there's fans all belting it out back to them. That's, you know, it's a special, special life, a real mark that he's made on so many people.

6:13Gregor Robertson: And, you know, just to have won the Nations League recently with Portugal, to have married his childhood sweetheart like 11 days ago, and, you know, all these things make the tragedy more sort of profound, but what a kind of, what a summer. He was living the best times professionally and personally of his life. So, yeah, it's very hard to know what else to say. It's just a huge tragedy. Martin, it does just show, Greg, I touched on it there, the outpouring that there has been already and the memories that are being shown on social media and online and things in terms of Liverpool fans. It does show how much sportsmen and women, and particularly footballers in this case, do become part of fans' lives so intrinsically, so massively?

7:05Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly, because you remember how he made you feel, basically. You know, that was outbursts of emotion, that outpouring of emotion and joy and happiness around a successful team. You know, they were a successful team, so there was a lot of joy and happiness. There was a lot of matches won and opponents that you got the better of and everything. And he, you know, players make the fans feel special. And that's why they get this, feel this almost devotion to them. That's why they're so hurt when they leave the club and everything, because it feels like you've been rejected almost.

7:51You know, the fans have been rejected, the club has been rejected. That's how it feels. and Jota was a guy that delivered on a lot of occasions scores the first goal of the Arnie Slott era against Ipswich scores the goal against Everton I think that's his last goal for the club I think he's against Everton and he was a super player I mean he really was a super player there's not too many people you look at that forward three that Liverpool have got, he could have played, you know, whenever anyone was in, he wasn't always in the team. You know, we can't pretend that he was a regular. He wasn't always in the team, but he could play any of those positions.

8:38You know, if Firmino dropped out, Salah dropped out, Sane dropped out, and now this next generation of players, this next level with Luis Diaz and people like that. He could play any of those positions. if the manager if he wasn't starting Jota if he had him on the bench he knew that if there was any of the three forwards that wasn't delivering quite as he wanted, the guy that he could bring on was Jota and I think that's a fantastic testament to his ability and as Gregor said, to his bravery as well because there's something brave about being able to play in a lot of positions and take that responsibility and not sort of I can only do this, I can only do that I'm only comfortable there.

9:21There was no sort of area, forward area, should we say, in which Jota wasn't comfortable, in which he wasn't prepared to, yeah, I'll take this job on. He was a lovely player, really lovely player. Yeah, absolutely. An absolutely tragic story this week about Diogo Jota. You can read Martin Samuel's thoughts on the Times website and also Paul Joyce's piece from outside Anfield as fans pay their tributes to a much-loved footballer. our thoughts of course with Diogo Jota's family and friends and everyone at Liverpool Football Club we are going to take a short break just now we'll be back after that break to talk to Martin about the Club World Cup we'll see you in a sec

10:03your heart can tell you a lot about your health Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch so your vitals app now with heart rate variability could tell you when something is off and your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible.

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11:24Gregor Robertson: This is something you can do on your own time. Tu propio ritmo. Talk to your provider o pídelo en línea hoy mismo. Hablemos de lo que no se habla. Available by prescription only.

11:42Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel with me. Martin, you are out in the US of A covering the Club World Cup for The Times. The most divisive tournament in football. That's what I'm going with as a headline for this segment of the show. Feels like football's new culture war to me. I've got some fans and friends getting in touch on social media saying they love it. We want more of it. Why aren't you covering it? people criticising us Gregor for not doing more of it on Monday's podcast so you know that's why we've definitely got to do Martin now stay off social media Tom but it's interesting it's an interesting barometer this friend the friends and I'd say the same thing um Martin we've not had you on the show from this tournament yet um obviously written a lot about it on the times website but just give listeners a sense of what you've found from the tournament so far and your initial thoughts on it right okay so here's the initial thoughts i do not much care for fifa i think that's um pretty much there's a matter of public record i think fifa have complained to the sports editor about me three times in a year in the last year which considering the amount of stick that fifa get that's that's that's quite an achievement really to get you know to get three phone calls saying, no, this is wrong, because they basically get stick from everybody.

13:10But three times, I know the sports editor has taken a call from FIFA about me. So, I'm no mate of FIFA. I love the Club World Cup. I've always thought there should be a Club World Cup. I've always thought there should be the equivalent of a World Cup for the clubs of the world. And nothing I've seen out here, not the delays, not the lightning delays, not some of the ordinary crowds that they've had, nothing out here has said to me that this will not work long-term. It's got certain inbuilt flaws, right? Which is, well, I'll give you the main one. when England play in the World Cup it's England it's the whole country the whole country wants England to win apart from you know perhaps people like Gregor but the up to the final Martin I told you even Gregor even Gregor I think really deep down wants people wants his next door neighbours to be happy and you know so that is a so that's much more powerful than just Chelsea and Manchester City being here.

14:31Because unless you support Chelsea and Manchester City, you haven't got the same investment in it. And so that will always be a flaw. Having said that, I do think over time, once people are used to this, once people are used to this format, I think it will go to 48 teams. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that at all, but I think it will end up as 48 teams. but I think it will have its place in the calendar. The money will certainly help because someone at the end of this is going to walk away with about£97 million or by the time we get to the middle of next week £7.50 as it probably be worth and then, you know, it will that will make a difference as well and clubs will want that.

15:26But I think even more than that, I don't know. But the glory of being world champions, now it's a 32-team tournament. Now that you've seen that the Brazilians can hold their own a bit and that Al-Hilal can swing a surprise and the team that we all thought was the joke team here into Miami actually got out of their group and exited to the European champions, it's given it a little bit of credibility. It looks a genuine tournament. And they're good games. This is the thing. People go on and go, oh, Manchester City were delighted to go home. You go, you didn't watch the game, did you? Because Man City were trying their nuts off.

16:16Just before we then get in. And couldn't beat them. just before we get into the games I just wanted to come back to Gregor on your general point there because I think it is an interesting place to start because we've almost you've almost taken us back to the very start of this Martin and the idea of a club world cup the idea of a world cup for teams the best teams around the world and I just wanted to get Gregor's view as a starting point before we go into the specifics of the games and everything like that Gregor you know a lot of those fans that I mentioned who are against it are still in the camp of there's too much football we don't want you know there's a bit of apathy around it the season's been very long the season never ends all that kind of stuff what do you make to martin's just the core principle of i like the idea of a big tournament for big teams whether whether it's this summer where don't without

17:03Gregor Robertson: getting where it is and all that kind of stuff i suppose when you when you remove a lot of problems then you're left with as martin's saying a fundamentally good idea like you know you're pitching a lot of the best teams in Europe, although not all, and some of the best teams in South America who we don't see as much on a general basis, and some of the best from the rest of the world as well, into a tournament every four years, it's different. So yeah, but you do have to remove a lot of problems from my point of view to get to that point. and I just my kind of real question mark is if you remove the money would they be there and I don't know if the money will always be there because this year it's been in the United States and they could or they tried to charge a lot of money for entry and you know that's been not entirely successful they struggled to get a broadcaster for it and you know we all know that Saudi Arabia's investment in and the zone meant they could front up a billion dollars.

18:18Gregor Robertson: Are they going to do that every time? Is it going to grow over the next four years and people think it was a success enough for someone else to put up? And if the prize fund isn't a billion dollars, are people like Carlo Ancelotti, when they say there's no way a Real Madrid go in when he was the manager, are they going to be shut down by their club? These are big questions. I have an inkling of what the answer will be, but I can't know for sure. So those are the things. I just wonder if the money wasn't there, would all the clubs have signed up to a tournament in their off-season in the United States in 30-odd degree heat and extreme weather?

18:58Gregor Robertson: I'm not so sure. I just think that over time, the prestige of the tournament will become something. something. It's very interesting that Barcelona were desperately lobbying to try to get in, that some of the bigger European clubs are now lobbying to try to get in. And also, I think, because FIFA have looked at it and gone, well, Luminium is quite possibly the best player in the world and he's not here. You've got to make sure that doesn't happen again. This is the first edition. So every Club World Cup that went before doesn't count because this is absolutely unique. and I just think this is the first one.

19:37There's things that are wrong, obviously. They'll make changes. They'll try to get things right. I mean, look, I don't know. I know why they've had it in America. I can absolutely understand why they've had it in America. And there is a suggestion it will come back here in four years' time because what they want to do is they want to be able to get it off the ground financially before doing the thing where you take it around the world. and then once it's established, then the finances aren't such a big deal. So there's a lot, you know, there will always be teething problems. Martin, can I just, before you make a lot of good points, I want to pick up about America in just a second in this specific tournament.

20:17But just on the kind of point I alluded to about some other fans and stuff, we're obviously talking about the Club World Cup in isolation. You're making a very persuasive argument about the merits of it and the interest that will grow. Do you understand or can you see some of the like, for want of a better word, apathy from some European fans about a tournament now, this summer, when we spent such a long time talking about a season that never ends and a season with so much football and an FA Cup that kicks into June and all this kind of stuff, you know. Do you understand why some European fans are looking at this and going, oh, gosh, again, I might enjoy this, but if I need a break from it, first.

20:57Tom, of course I understand it. I absolutely sympathise with it. And I can understand why, if you're a fan of Liverpool or Arsenal, why do you want to get up at two o 'clock in the morning and watch Chelsea play Flamengo or whatever? Yeah, I get all that. I absolutely get all that. But every time we try and cancel a replay of some game, everyone goes nuts. Every time, you know, you say, you know, the League Cup has like one round, one round, one, and then suddenly it goes to two leagues for the semi-final, then it goes back to one match again. Isn't that a bit inconsistent and superfluous? Couldn't we get rid of one of the League Cup semi-files?

21:35Everyone goes nuts. What I mean is, I do think this is a genuine tournament. It involves two clubs. I absolutely accept player fatigue. I thought it was very, very interesting with Pep last week when he said, I don't know, at the moment, this is obviously before he gets beat by a team from Saudi Arabia, but he says at the moment we're looking good, we're bouncy we've got our mojo back, this is working out for us very well but even before the defeat to Al-Khalao he did say but come back in November December time and we'll talk again, he said because I could be saying we're dead because of the Club World Cup we're exhausted we've got no chance because of the Club World Cup but But at the moment, it's two teams and let's see how they handle it.

22:29I mean, if Chelsea were to be, I like, I'm sorry, I like Chelsea versus Palmares. I like Chelsea versus Flamengo. I've never seen these games. You know, it's a quote I use quite a lot. It's about John Peel being asked, what does he want to hear? And says, I just want to hear something I've never heard before. Well, I feel a bit like that with some of this. I've never seen Chelsea play Flamengo not competitively I agree with you and I think the John Peel analogy but if you've had a record stuck on a loop for an entire day you might want to listen to but you might not want to listen to some tunes

23:09Gregor Robertson: it depends what it is absolutely we also seem to have Gianni Infantino stuck on loop as well standing next to Donald Trump so there's just so much that's distasteful about the whole arrival of the competition, that's part of the reason people have turned off. I know it's FIFA, but you can't ignore it. As I said at the start, you get to keep removing problems before people think, yeah, this is a good idea. There's quite a few problems that I've had to get chucked in the bin. I agree fundamentally. Particularly when you get towards the end of the

23:43Gregor Robertson: meet of the competition, there's some real points of difference. And watching South American teams playing against a team from the Premier League is going to be fascinating. but I went to Flamengo versus Bayern Munich on Sunday as a punter not in the press box, as a punter I was in the Flamengo end which was great, try telling them that no one cares about it I've never seen nutcases like it it was fantastic and it was 4-2 and it was a really really good game actually every game I've seen here so far seen live here so far has been a good game it's been a decent game I know there's been a few by nils and nil-nils, 3 ,000 people at Mamelodi Sundowns.

24:29But actually, that was a shame because Mamelodi Sundowns, I've never seen them. I mean, I tell you what, Ange, Ange Bostokoglu would be looking at Mamelodi Sundowns going, lads, you need to, you know, just try and keep a bit of a shape here. You know, like, you know, just hold on. Martin, you're obviously talking there about being in the stands, both as a reporter and as a punter. I asked Pete Rutzer and Paul Hurst earlier in the tournament about how they had found the reaction from Americans. I'm the afterthought, am I? You've had everyone else on. I'm like, I'm chopped liver. Oh, great. No, you're going out for the knockouts.

25:05You're going out for the knockouts. Oh, blimey. Out for the knockouts. Listen, do you want to tell me about the reaction of the American fans or not? No, I'd like to tell you against the staff. I mean, that's all. I can't believe it. Oh, I've missed him. I've missed him so much. I've missed him so much, listeners. I really have. I was wondering how you found the American public's reaction to this tournament being out there. You talk about the South American fans who have been hugely praised for bringing great atmosphere to the games that their teams have been involved with. But how have you found the American public's reaction to this tournament?

25:41Well, look, you know, it starts off, it's in the middle of the NBA playoff final. So on the day that I arrived here, I drove out to try to find, I think it was Manchester City versus Alain, I think, the team from the UAE. And so, you know, we do a bit of research online. Grail's the number one sports bar in Miami, you know, soccer into Miami. Yeah. I've driven out there. I've parked up, got there. It's like mental. It's, you know, they're packed with water-walled people, music blaring, people spilling out into the street or whatever. 50 televisions, not a thing was showing the football, because it was the seventh game of the NBA playoffs.

26:35It's the deciding match, you know. So you've got to be realistic, for starters, that America's got its own sports, and they will gravitate towards their own sports. see the thing the thing with this country is there's so many people here from everywhere in the world so that's the actual that's the other attraction i would imagine for fifa in having it here is that an egyptian team gets here and there's already a sort of ready-made home crowd for them that will turn up and we'll go and watch the you know i don't know if they're all fans of that club or whether they're just supporting the Egyptian team.

27:16If it's anything like our football supporters, they wouldn't be. But I've got no idea if you're an exile in a country and you're a team from your country turns up, whether you just go, right, OK, this is Egypt and we'll go with them. I was watching Manchester City getting beat by Al Hilal and it kept going on in the crowd, agonised Manchester City fans and all of this sort of stuff. this might be a terrible cliche and I do apologise to the population of Manchester for this there wasn't too many pasty face people there the Manchester City fans no one in a cagoule Martin is that what you're saying mate no there wasn't anyone I didn't see Noel and Liam you know what I mean there were a lot of extraordinarily well tanned very Hispanic looking Manchester City fans from the Florida area.

28:13And that was, you know, and that there was no science involved in that observation whatsoever. But I'm looking at them, I'm thinking, yeah, those four people there, don't look like I'm from Manchester. But that's also another reason

28:28Gregor Robertson: why they'll want to try and keep it in America is because it's the biggest market that they feel is still untapped and there's lots of room for growth. It's not the same when you go to South America. There might be people who like the Premier League, but they've got their own teams. So again, that comes back to money. So money is at the heart of this competition from the start and it will decide its future. But all I would say, Greg, and I know we're not rowing about this, but all I would say to that is that tell me a football competition that isn't about money. I mean, once you've left the local park, Once you've left the local park, it's all about money.

29:12I mean, the National League are trying to get three teams into Tier 4, where it's about money. You know, I think if we're sitting there waiting for the football tournament that is totally pure and it's not about money, we're not. We can't. We can't. That's gone. So this is about money, but so is the Champions League. And all I would say is, when Chelsea were invited to compete in the first European Cup in 1955-56, Alan Hardacre of the Football League persuaded them to pull out. Persuaded them that it's not for the likes of us, basically. And described it as a nine-day wonder. That's the Champions League, by the way.

30:03Nine-day wonder. That was English football's foresight in 1955 to 56. I would like to hope that we've smartened up a bit since then. And you can see an idea and go, yeah, we need to be in on this on the ground floor. No one has tried to talk Chelsea and Manchester City out of coming.

30:24Gregor Robertson: I know I keep banging on about money, but I suppose the point I was making is that most of all the other competitions we're talking about, when they are about money, the value kind of grows or has grown organically this has been completely artificially inflated there was no demand sorry, money usually really follows demand, there's huge demand for the Champions League, there's huge demand for people to watch the Premier League there was no demand from anyone for this I don't understand that it might need this to grow in the future it might have needed a starting point, it needed investment, but no one was willing to do it only Infantino's cosy relationship with Saudi Arabia got it over the line so that's my only question Mark is like how long can that continue for it to grow into the competition that Martin thinks it can be and like I would have no like I think it's when you remove all the problems like I say it'd be good fun to watch but there are a lot of problems go on Martin yeah there are I just like the idea and I've always thought there should be a Club World Cup.

31:32And when in previous seasons, when there was that debate about Liverpool and, oh, they've got to put the reserves out against Aston Villa in the Carabao Cup or whatever, because they're in this ridiculous Club World Cup, and you're thinking, is that a League Cup quarterfinal? They wouldn't have played their first team under normal circumstances anyway. They wouldn't have played the kids as such, but they wouldn't have played their first team. are we really that sort of closed-minded that you can't look at the club World Cup, you can't look at being world champions and think, yeah, that would be a really good thing for us, that would be a good thing for our football to claim.

32:13That would, you know, we've got the world champions, that would be good. And look, if it ever ends up as eight European quarter finalists and just a pain in the neck Champions League that's being played in July that is producing exactly the same results as the Champions League produced, well, then bin it. You know, then, well, it's an experiment. It hasn't worked. Europe are so strong. But the other thing is, it might even it up a little. I'll ask you a question, right? Flamengo are the Manchester United of Brazil. Yeah? Yeah. We are in agreement here. What's the record sign? Money.

32:59Gregor Robertson: 20 million. That's your left. 15. 15. Half of Liam DeLat is Flamingo's. Half of Liam DeLat, who we think is like the cheapest centre forward anyone's ever bought, I can't believe how cheap he is. 15 million quid. I mean, if Liverpool were buying a reserve left back this season, he'd come to modern. and that's Flamengo's record signing and they're the biggest team. So, if some of Brazil ends up earning a few quid out of this so that they could maybe keep hold of some of their players, not so that they could inflate the market but just so that they could go, all right, well, we don't have to sell to the Emirates with this summer.

33:41We don't have to sell to Wolves. You know, I mean, there's a centre forward out here, I think, for Botafogo, showing the Nottingham Forest. Would it not be better if Botafogo earned enough money to be able to say to Nottingham Forest, and this is nothing against Nottingham Forest, but we're not talking, you know, one of the giants of Europe here. Nottingham Forest, no, we'll keep the centre forward things. We don't need to say that centre forward this summer. And I just think, you know, in the end, you give it a go because if you can make it work, if you can remove these wrinkles, the positives in time will outweigh the negatives.

34:23Yeah, absolutely fascinating debate. If you've got views on the rights and wrongs of a club World Cup, get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Chaps, let's finish with an actual chat about the actual football. That was a fascinating debate about the tournament itself. We're into the quarterfinal stage. Martin, you mentioned there, Fluminense against Al-Halal, Palmeiras against Chelsea, PSG against Bayern Munich, Real Madrid against Dortmund. Martin, before I come back to you, Gregor, just in terms of the football, the action that you've watched putting aside views and scepticism around the money and the financials and the reasons for this tournament happening have you enjoyed and been engaged with the football that you've seen?

35:00Gregor Robertson: I've enjoyed a good, as Martin said there were some really kind of pretty turgid 1-0s early on in the competition and there's a couple of spankings but not as many as you might have thought and since then there's been some high scoring, really entertaining games and a lot of the South American teams have played their part in that as Martin said Inter Miami surprised although then kind of came face to face with reality when they met PSG and I'm sure as Martin wrote a very persuasive column about Al-Hilal and what this means for the Premier League sort of shrugging over the shoulders about Saudi Arabia's rise that is interesting and I also think a big part is that they were managed by Simeone Inzaghi as well who's you know who's who's a very very talented head coach so yeah there's there's been good football but when you throw the best you know a lot of the some of the best teams in the world together then that's no no no we've done all the buts just the football just the football just the football Martin Greg I mentioned it there it was a piece that got a lot of reaction on the Times website Manchester City 3 Al-Hilal 4 I didn't watch this game live but I caught up with the extended highlights and it looked quite a remarkable game.

36:19Gregor mentioned Simone Inzaghi and his tactics there. Very effective at doing a good job on Manchester City. Just in terms of that game, tell us a little bit more about what you wrote in your piece about how English football views Saudi Arabia's rise and how we might need to reappraise what we thought before. Richard Masters, who's the Premier League chairman, said he wasn't worried about Saudi Arabia. He said that a couple of years ago. He's not worried about Saudi Arabia. and I've thought all the way through we should be a little bit worried about Saudi Arabia you know and my point was we are losing players to Saudi Arabia that are good players you know we can't keep saying oh it's the only people who go there are 48 and retired and they've shot it and everything it's not actually true and when you saw that Al-Hilou team they were useful They were genuinely useful.

37:16And we can argue, oh, it's all foreign mercenaries. There was a lot more Saudi Arabian players playing for Al-Hilal than English players playing for Man City. If every single foreign player that's not playing in his own country is, in inverted quotes, a mercenary, then there was a lot more mercenaries for Man City than there was for Al-Hilal. Because there were six Saudi Arabian players, I think, in the Al-Hilal team, and there wasn't a single Englishman on the pitch until Phil Foden arrived in extra time, I think it was for Man City. So that's what I think. I think that it's a threat and it is an increasing problem for English football that we are forcing clubs to sell players to make a lot of arbitrary rules and targets work.

38:01You know, clubs like Aston Villa lose players to Saudi Arabia quite regularly for no reason whatsoever. and I think if you keep making other leagues stronger I don't think it's too clever it was a great game I mean that's the thing I've heard some people commenting as if Pep will be delighted to come home, it didn't look delighted to come home, they looked like they were knocking themselves out all over the field I mean Pep looked distraught at the end of it it wasn't what they were planning without a shadow of a doubt. The 5-1 against Juventus was what they were playing. And in them, we get our spirit going, we get our mojo going.

38:43We do our pre-season. I mean, that's the interesting thing. The interesting thing with this is that Chelsea and Manchester City will probably, whenever they go back, whether it's after the final or whether it's, you know, on Saturday morning, they will feel as if they've done pre-season. And then everyone gets a month off and then they come back. And they've bedded in and their new signings have bedded in. Everyone knows each other and things like that. So it's interesting. It's very interesting to see how it works. And the football's been going. Delighted to have you back on the game podcast, Martin Samuel.

39:25Well, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Once you run out, once Hurstley was coming out, and, you know. Fade out, Neil. Fade out, Neil. No doubt, Neil. Martin Samuel, it has been great to have you back on the Game Podcast. Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me too. Thank you very much for listening. We will be back with our dedicated Women's Euros show over the weekend with Izzy Christensen looking at England's first game against France. We'll see you then.

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